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View Full Version : Saw another thread about Suicide - my question is - what does it biblically mean?



chance45
Feb 12th 2010, 02:17 AM
I think people should always look for other ways of course, but speaking strictly from a theoretical point of view:

Samson could be said to have committed suicide, and one could argue that even Jesus did (He could have stopped his death, but did not). There are other examples to be sure.

When is dying for something when you could have prevented your death - and knew full well your actions would lead to a quick death - any different than suicide? If we believe people should just try harder, turn to God, etc - then why allow yourself to die when you could run to fight another day, etc?

As I believe in a loving and understanding God, and given how much science we have about depression, mental illness and the like, I cannot see it being a sin.

Certainly not something we should ever encourage! And we should always use what God gave us to help others. And I hope no one sees this post as condoning such things - I am merely asking about this from a theological view and based on another thread I saw here (I was interested in the discussion but for some reason could not post at the time, so apologies for posting something new here about it - still learning my way around).

Thank you for allowing me to post here and I hope I can add to and learn from this board. I apologize ahead of time if this is posted in the wrong area.

-Chance

TrustingFollower
Feb 12th 2010, 03:52 AM
The question I would like to present is related to Exodus 20:13 in relationship to suicide. Exodus 20 is where God gave Moses the 10 commandments which we are still to follow. So wouldn't killing oneself be murder of self and thus against what god commanded?

Exodus 20

13 ¶"You shall not murder.

If we break the 10 commandments we are in sin and thus suicide would be sinning without being able to repent of that sin because you would be dead and unable to repent.

Naphal
Feb 13th 2010, 10:08 PM
Samson could be said to have committed suicide, and one could argue that even Jesus did (He could have stopped his death, but did not). There are other examples to be sure.

Suicide is when you, no one else, decide to end your own life. Sometimes someone else is used to accomplish this. Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice which has a purpose to help others. Suicide isn't designed to help others even if in some ways it might.



As I believe in a loving and understanding God, and given how much science we have about depression, mental illness and the like, I cannot see it being a sin.

I believe God would judge case by case, not all as the same in his eyes.

Freek
Feb 13th 2010, 10:43 PM
If we break the 10 commandments we are in sin and thus suicide would be sinning without being able to repent of that sin because you would be dead and unable to repent.

What if you slap your wife and die of a heart attack 2 minutes later? Your logic does not make sense.

TrustingFollower
Feb 14th 2010, 03:38 PM
What if you slap your wife and die of a heart attack 2 minutes later? Your logic does not make sense.

Slapping your wife would be sinning and thus you would not be walking in the ways of the Lord, so yes the logic still works. We as Christians are to become like Christ and not willfully sin, the wages of sin is death.

Matthew 22

37 And He said to him, "`YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.´
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 "The second is like it, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.´
40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Athanasius
Feb 14th 2010, 03:57 PM
Suicide is an act of intentional (purposeful, pre-meditated) self-murder in which one has no morally exonerating circumstance in which to perform the act (such as covering a grenade). Such an act, I would propose, should be called sacrifice (as was mentioned by a poster above). Suicide is a completely selfish act, whereas sacrifice is completely selfless.

Gregg
Feb 14th 2010, 04:02 PM
The question I would like to present is related to Exodus 20:13 in relationship to suicide. Exodus 20 is where God gave Moses the 10 commandments which we are still to follow. So wouldn't killing oneself be murder of self and thus against what god commanded?

Exodus 20

13 ¶"You shall not murder.

If we break the 10 commandments we are in sin and thus suicide would be sinning without being able to repent of that sin because you would be dead and unable to repent.

Jesus died for our sins once and for all. He died for my sins before I was born. I have accepted the gift of salvation. I have given my life to the Lord (as best I can) and ask him to help me walk in his ways. I have been freed from my signature sins. Yet I still sometimes sin as the Bible says we all do. I can add nothing to the mighty works that Jesus did for me that day. My salvation is not based on the last moment repentence statement for my sins. In fact to God my sins are as far as the east is from the west. While I understand your statement (and agree) that suicide is self murder. In our world it is not as bad as killing someone else. Now we should all counter with the arguement that all sin is the same in the eyes of God (regarding salvation). So therefore suicide and murder are the same and require the same punsihment. I agree than according to my Lord's words gossip, and thoughts of lust, lying, swearing, judging, etc. are exactly the same. We better not die before saying the magic words of repentence. Yet, didn't my Savior want all of us to be saved. Didn't he want us all to be free from guilt and fear as we finish our earthly lives? My soul is saved, I will need a new body to live with him forever. Thank you Jesus that I will get one. He sees me for who I will become not who I am. Let the journey continue. In Jesus name I pray Amen.

God bless you and yours.

Gregg
Feb 14th 2010, 04:04 PM
Suicide is a completely selfish act, whereas sacrifice is completely selfless.

All sin is............

moonglow
Feb 14th 2010, 04:10 PM
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

If a fireman goes into a home to save people..brings out the family but later dies from injuring he got saving them..did he commit suicide?

Of course not.


Jesus did not commit suicide..He died to save all of us..the whole world..so we might live. Plus His situation was vastly different from anyone else's as He rose from the dead and His saving us wasn't to physically save us so we could live physically forever, but spiritually live forever. I don't think we can begin to compare what He did to anything any people do actually.

Samson died to kill a large group of people who were ruthless and hurting the Hebrews. By their deaths, he saved many. He gave his life for that cause, not just to off himself.

Most suicides aren't about saving others..though the person that does this might think they are saving their family from being burdened with them..that is the distorted thinking that usually comes with depressed people. They aren't thinking clearly. Because if they were they would realize their suicide would cause much, much more grief for their families then if they had died naturally. Suicide really, really hurts the family and friends that care about them.

Some people kill themselves though out of spite..just TOO hurt their families. Pretty sick isn't it?

God bless

TrustingFollower
Feb 14th 2010, 05:08 PM
Jesus died for our sins once and for all. He died for my sins before I was born. I have accepted the gift of salvation. I have given my life to the Lord (as best I can) and ask him to help me walk in his ways. I have been freed from my signature sins. Yet I still sometimes sin as the Bible says we all do. I can add nothing to the mighty works that Jesus did for me that day. My salvation is not based on the last moment repentence statement for my sins. In fact to God my sins are as far as the east is from the west. While I understand your statement (and agree) that suicide is self murder. In our world it is not as bad as killing someone else. Now we should all counter with the arguement that all sin is the same in the eyes of God (regarding salvation). So therefore suicide and murder are the same and require the same punsihment. I agree than according to my Lord's words gossip, and thoughts of lust, lying, swearing, judging, etc. are exactly the same. We better not die before saying the magic words of repentence. Yet, didn't my Savior want all of us to be saved. Didn't he want us all to be free from guilt and fear as we finish our earthly lives? My soul is saved, I will need a new body to live with him forever. Thank you Jesus that I will get one. He sees me for who I will become not who I am. Let the journey continue. In Jesus name I pray Amen.

God bless you and yours.

While I agree with your statement for the most part, the part that is alarming is the underlying tone of having a license to sin. We as Christians are to deny ourselves and to live for God. Does that allow us to do anything we want because Jesus died to cleanse us of our sins, heavens no. Jesus died for me while I was still an enemy towards Him and God the Father, now that I have come into Him and become one with Him, I need to live my life for Him. Does living my life for Him give me the right to do anything I want to do? No it does not. We as Christians have to take on the mindset of being a slave to Christ. A slave has no rights of their own and do what their master wishes them to do. It is by God's grace that we are saved through faith in His promises. The apostle Paul addressed this in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6

11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 ¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 ¶What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

So you see we as Christians can not just go on with this life with the mindset that we can do anything we want because Jesus paid the price for our sins, we have to strive daily to be like Christ. Become servants to righteousness and sow to the spirit not the flesh.

Freek
Feb 14th 2010, 05:38 PM
Slapping your wife would be sinning and thus you would not be walking in the ways of the Lord, so yes the logic still works. We as Christians are to become like Christ and not willfully sin, the wages of sin is death.

Matthew 22

37 And He said to him, "`YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.´
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 "The second is like it, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.´
40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

So if you have unrepented sin in your life the moment you die, you are doomed??? Can you please clarify your point of view.

Athanasius
Feb 14th 2010, 05:48 PM
All sin is............

Perhaps. However my point was to compare and contrast the difference between suicide and sacrifice.

TrustingFollower
Feb 14th 2010, 06:53 PM
So if you have unrepented sin in your life the moment you die, you are doomed??? Can you please clarify your point of view.

There is a big difference between repentance and forgiveness. Can you be repentante if you are willfully sinning? I say no you can not be repentant by living a life of willful sin. Look what Jesus taught on repentance.

Luke 13

1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

So we can see that Jesus expects us to change the ways we live in order to inherit eternal life. Repentance is the act of changing your ways so you do not live a life of willful sin. We all are sinners be nature and all fall short of the goal, but the difference is what the intent of the heart is, willful or not.

Matthew 15

16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 "Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

The repentant heart does not live for the desires of the flesh and the things of this world. The repentant heart does all things for Christ and lives for the glory of God. Thus the repentant heart does not willfully sin.

Athanasius
Feb 14th 2010, 07:05 PM
There is a big difference between repentance and forgiveness. Can you be repentante if you are willfully sinning? I say no you can not be repentant by living a life of willful sin. Look what Jesus taught on repentance.

Luke 13

1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

So we can see that Jesus expects us to change the ways we live in order to inherit eternal life. Repentance is the act of changing your ways so you do not live a life of willful sin. We all are sinners be nature and all fall short of the goal, but the difference is what the intent of the heart is, willful or not.

Matthew 15

16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 "Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

The repentant heart does not live for the desires of the flesh and the things of this world. The repentant heart does all things for Christ and lives for the glory of God. Thus the repentant heart does not willfully sin.

How does this concern acts of desperation, or acts out of mental illness?

RogerW
Feb 14th 2010, 07:09 PM
How would suicide align with the providence of God? Hmmm??? Especially when we consider that God gives every man an appointed time to be born and an appointed time to die?

Ec*3:2
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

Ps*31:15
My times are in thy hand: deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.

Heb*9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Can a man alter or reverse/stay the fixed times he/she is appointed to be born or to die?

Many Blessings,
RW

Freek
Feb 14th 2010, 07:15 PM
There is a big difference between repentance and forgiveness. Can you be repentante if you are willfully sinning? I say no you can not be repentant by living a life of willful sin. Look what Jesus taught on repentance.

Luke 13

1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

So we can see that Jesus expects us to change the ways we live in order to inherit eternal life. Repentance is the act of changing your ways so you do not live a life of willful sin. We all are sinners be nature and all fall short of the goal, but the difference is what the intent of the heart is, willful or not.

Matthew 15

16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 "Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

The repentant heart does not live for the desires of the flesh and the things of this world. The repentant heart does all things for Christ and lives for the glory of God. Thus the repentant heart does not willfully sin.

Your conclusion seems theoretical. How many people do you know like that? I also fail to see the relation between scriptures you mentioned and the topic being discussed.

No one considers suicide to please the flesh. It is certainly not a fleshly desire to kill oneself. I fail to see how someone is doomed if he/she does that. The only thing that is needed to get to heaven, is to be born again. Anything else added to this is man made doctrine.

TrustingFollower
Feb 14th 2010, 07:49 PM
Your conclusion seems theoretical. How many people do you know like that? I also fail to see the relation between scriptures you mentioned and the topic being discussed.

No one considers suicide to please the flesh. It is certainly not a fleshly desire to kill oneself. I fail to see how someone is doomed if he/she does that. The only thing that is needed to get to heaven, is to be born again. Anything else added to this is man made doctrine.

Many people consider suicide to please the flesh. Many see it easier to kill themselves rather than fight the desires of this world and thus take what they consider the easy way out by killing themselves. This is nothing more than the evil one deceiving them into thinking all their problems will be over, but exactly the opposite is happening. Many people today want to think that all will be fine if they simply say they are a Christian and then live a life contrary to what the bible teaches. We only receive our inheritance once we endure to the end. There is no easy button in this world.

Please explain to me how one can be born again and still live a life of sin. Also explain why Jesus himself told us to repent or perish, if changing the way we live does not matter. Further more show from the scripture, anywhere God has condoned suicide. As I stated in my previous posts we are to stop living for ourselves and to do all for the glory of God, killing oneself does not bring glory to God and I have yet to see anyone being able to show other wise from the scriptures.

Freek
Feb 14th 2010, 07:53 PM
Many people consider suicide to please the flesh. Many see it easier to kill themselves rather than fight the desires of this world and thus take what they consider the easy way out by killing themselves. This is nothing more than the evil one deceiving them into thinking all their problems will be over, but exactly the opposite is happening. Many people today want to think that all will be fine if they simply say they are a Christian and then live a life contrary to what the bible teaches. We only receive our inheritance once we endure to the end. There is no easy button in this world.

Please explain to me how one can be born again and still live a life of sin. Also explain why Jesus himself told us to repent or perish, if changing the way we live does not matter. Further more show from the scripture, anywhere God has condoned suicide. As I stated in my previous posts we are to stop living for ourselves and to do all for the glory of God, killing oneself does not bring glory to God and I have yet to see anyone being able to show other wise from the scriptures.

I first need to know what else over and above being born again, is needed to be saved.

TrustingFollower
Feb 14th 2010, 07:54 PM
How does this concern acts of desperation, or acts out of mental illness?

Could and act of desperation also be and act of lack of faith? An act out of mental illness is only addressed in the bible as someone being demon possesed as examples. We know that that is not always the case, but the scriptures do not address it and in that case I can only trust in God that He has a plan in those cases.

Gregg
Feb 14th 2010, 07:55 PM
While I agree with your statement for the most part, the part that is alarming is the underlying tone of having a license to sin. We as Christians are to deny ourselves and to live for God. Does that allow us to do anything we want because Jesus died to cleanse us of our sins, heavens no. Jesus died for me while I was still an enemy towards Him and God the Father, now that I have come into Him and become one with Him, I need to live my life for Him. Does living my life for Him give me the right to do anything I want to do? No it does not. We as Christians have to take on the mindset of being a slave to Christ. A slave has no rights of their own and do what their master wishes them to do. It is by God's grace that we are saved through faith in His promises. The apostle Paul addressed this in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6

11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 ¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 ¶What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

So you see we as Christians can not just go on with this life with the mindset that we can do anything we want because Jesus paid the price for our sins, we have to strive daily to be like Christ. Become servants to righteousness and sow to the spirit not the flesh.

There was no underlying tone of a license to sin in any post I have written. If we are living in Christ we will not want to sin. I can honestly say I would choose to never sin again...and yet I do. Then how do I know I am saved....by the promise of God's word and the actions of my Savior, combined with the fruits and evidence of my own changing life. Have you ever sinned and not wanted to? Even Paul states he is not perfect. He also statess that he is free to do anything although not everything is profitable.

TrustingFollower
Feb 14th 2010, 08:12 PM
There was no underlying tone of a license to sin in any post I have written. If we are living in Christ we will not want to sin. I can honestly say I would choose to never sin again...and yet I do. Then how do I know I am saved....by the promise of God's word and the actions of my Savior, combined with the fruits and evidence of my own changing life. Have you ever sinned and not wanted to? Even Paul states he is not perfect. He also statess that he is free to do anything although not everything is profitable.

So according to you, what Paul is saying in the following scripture, we can still be in the kingdom. It is just that those things listed are not profitable for us.

1 Corinthians 6

9 ¶Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
12 ¶All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

TrustingFollower
Feb 14th 2010, 08:31 PM
I first need to know what else over and above being born again, is needed to be saved.
According to Jesus.

Luke 13

3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Luke 13

5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Freek
Feb 14th 2010, 09:06 PM
According to Jesus.

Luke 13

3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Luke 13

5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Context is everything.

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

See, I can justify anything from scripture if context is ignored. :D

TrustingFollower
Feb 14th 2010, 09:41 PM
Context is everything.

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

See, I can justify anything from scripture if context is ignored. :D


If you would go back and look at post #13 you would see the context. Now Peter seems to think that what Jesus taught was relevant enough to teach the same thing on the day of Penticost where 3000 were saved and baptised.

Acts 2

37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

Repentance,( i.e. changing ones ways) is required for being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Being indwelt with the Holy Spirit is becoming born again. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and not our own. God in any of His forms, the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit does not condone destruction of our bodies by suicide. A true born again believer would not even consider killing themselves. The true born again believer would not be able to make God the Holy Spirit a partaker in the sin of murdering themselves.

1 Corinthians 6

19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

Freek
Feb 14th 2010, 09:55 PM
If you would go back and look at post #13 you would see the context. Now Peter seems to think that what Jesus taught was relevant enough to teach the same thing on the day of Penticost where 3000 were saved and baptised.

Acts 2

37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

Repentance,( i.e. changing ones ways) is required for being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Being indwelt with the Holy Spirit is becoming born again. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and not our own. God in any of His forms, the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit does not condone destruction of our bodies by suicide. A true born again believer would not even consider killing themselves. The true born again believer would not be able to make God the Holy Spirit a partaker in the sin of murdering themselves.

1 Corinthians 6

19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

The question in post #11 still remains unanswered. If you did,I did not get it as I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Please understand that I do agree that suicide is sin, but the issue is whether or not someone who commits it is doomed forever.

moonglow
Feb 14th 2010, 09:58 PM
I first need to know what else over and above being born again, is needed to be saved.

How about these:

Hebrews 2
Do Not Neglect Salvation
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Hebrews 6
The Peril of Not Progressing
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

God bless

Freek
Feb 14th 2010, 10:06 PM
How about these:

Hebrews 2
Do Not Neglect Salvation
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Hebrews 6
The Peril of Not Progressing
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

God bless

Context again is important. Who is he writing to and what were the issues they faced? If these scriptures are applied to the church at large, the vast majority are doomed. Please understand that I do not condone suicide. I am trying to get to the underlying doctrines to try and ascertain whether they are true or not.

TrustingFollower
Feb 14th 2010, 10:23 PM
Context again is important. Who is he writing to and what were the issues they faced? If these scriptures are applied to the church at large, the vast majority are doomed. Please understand that I do not condone suicide. I am trying to get to the underlying doctrines to try and ascertain whether they are true or not.

What make you think these scriptures do not apply to us now or the church at large?

moonglow
Feb 14th 2010, 10:31 PM
Context again is important. Who is he writing to and what were the issues they faced? If these scriptures are applied to the church at large, the vast majority are doomed. Please understand that I do not condone suicide. I am trying to get to the underlying doctrines to try and ascertain whether they are true or not.

I agree with TrustingFollower here..while yes we know Paul was dealing with alot of problems in the churches he started..the whole reason we have these still today isn't to read about 'their' problems..they are problems the churches still have..that we as individuals have and need to know..if you are really going to apply everything to the past, why have the bible at all? Following your logic salvation was only for those that lived back then too...and doesn't apply to now. So where do you draw the line?

God bless

Freek
Feb 14th 2010, 10:52 PM
I agree with TrustingFollower here..while yes we know Paul was dealing with alot of problems in the churches he started..the whole reason we have these still today isn't to read about 'their' problems..they are problems the churches still have..that we as individuals have and need to know..if you are really going to apply everything to the past, why have the bible at all? Following your logic salvation was only for those that lived back then too...and doesn't apply to now. So where do you draw the line?

God bless

I do not draw any lines anywhere, neither do I intend to apply everything to the past. Can you really use these scriptures to condemn someone who commited suicide to hell? Is that the correct way to use them? I don't think so. Hence my question about what else is needed to be saved. My logic is sound. I allready showed that everything can be justified from the Bible if you ignore context as you are clearly doing here. If I follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, it is not possible for one to be saved on his deathbed as he has no opportunity to grow spiritually.

No, it is wrong to think that a Christian who commits suicide will go to hell. They will not, because the sacrifice of Christ was sufficient for that too. It seems that you do not really understand the fullness of the redemption that we have in Christ. I do not yet either, but I am getting a glimpse. :D

Freek
Feb 14th 2010, 11:01 PM
What make you think these scriptures do not apply to us now or the church at large?

Hebrews 6 addresses the issue of osas and clearly explains what conditions must be met to lose your salvation. What does that have to do with suicide? It does apply to the modern day church, but in another context. I must admit that I am not really sure how Hebrews 2 applies to this case. If you know, please explain.

moonglow
Feb 15th 2010, 12:42 AM
I do not draw any lines anywhere, neither do I intend to apply everything to the past. Can you really use these scriptures to condemn someone who commited suicide to hell? Is that the correct way to use them? I don't think so. Hence my question about what else is needed to be saved. My logic is sound. I allready showed that everything can be justified from the Bible if you ignore context as you are clearly doing here. If I follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, it is not possible for one to be saved on his deathbed as he has no opportunity to grow spiritually.

No, it is wrong to think that a Christian who commits suicide will go to hell. They will not, because the sacrifice of Christ was sufficient for that too. It seems that you do not really understand the fullness of the redemption that we have in Christ. I do not yet either, but I am getting a glimpse. :D

Freek I wasn't applying this to suicide..I was answering your question, which I quoted before I posted those passages. Your question was this:
Originally Posted by Freek
I first need to know what else over and above being born again, is needed to be saved.

That is why I posted those. I never said a word about suicide in that post.

Does that clear up things for you a little bit?

God bless

moonglow
Feb 15th 2010, 12:54 AM
Here is another in answer to your question:
I first need to know what else over and above being born again, is needed to be saved.

Philippians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

James 2:19-21 (New King James Version)

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

They are both saying if our faith isn't reflected..lived out in our lives..which includes doing what Jesus said..feed the hungry, cloth the poor, and so on..our faith is dead. We have no faith if we aren't living it and striving to work daily on our walk with God. Salvation is a work in progress.

God bless

TrustingFollower
Feb 15th 2010, 01:49 AM
I do not draw any lines anywhere, neither do I intend to apply everything to the past. Can you really use these scriptures to condemn someone who commited suicide to hell? Is that the correct way to use them? I don't think so. Hence my question about what else is needed to be saved. My logic is sound. I allready showed that everything can be justified from the Bible if you ignore context as you are clearly doing here. If I follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, it is not possible for one to be saved on his deathbed as he has no opportunity to grow spiritually.

No, it is wrong to think that a Christian who commits suicide will go to hell. They will not, because the sacrifice of Christ was sufficient for that too. It seems that you do not really understand the fullness of the redemption that we have in Christ. I do not yet either, but I am getting a glimpse. :D

With your line of reasoning then hell will be empty except for Satan and the false prophet of Satan because Christ's sacrifice covers everyone. While that is a nice fantasy it is not the reality of what the bible teaches.

Matthew 7

13 ¶"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Sadly there are many on the wide path that think they are on the narrow path and will be disappointed in the end.

Let me ask you this, have you actually obtained the complete salvation yet or do you have it only by faith now?