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holyrokker
Feb 21st 2010, 11:29 PM
What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?

What has lead you to form your opinion?

Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2010, 12:42 AM
What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?

As far as what is concerned? Whether they are active today? If that is what you mean then, yes, I believe the gift of tongues is active today.


What has lead you to form your opinion?

By being used in this gift, witnessing others operate in it as well, and the word of God.


Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?

No, because I honestly do not believe the opposite is based upon clear logic.

newinchrist4now
Feb 22nd 2010, 12:51 AM
What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?

What has lead you to form your opinion?


My opinion, that tongues were for a certain time in the Church and are no longer active with some exceptions. (I.E. Missionaries have stories about them not speaking tribal languages and being able to deliver sermons and the tribe understood) I don't believe for one second in the gobbly gupe that happens in many churches today.


Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?

Not right now, just got done with three hours of accounting homework and my mind feels like mush :)

watchinginawe
Feb 22nd 2010, 01:38 AM
What is your opinion regarding "tongues"? There is explicit endorsement by the scriptures for tongues. I don't know how else to see it really. I understand the arguements of cessation but they conclude the answer first and then support it IMO. Personally, I don't think someone reading the Bible fresh for the first time would come up with the idea of cessation.

I Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

God Bless!

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 01:40 AM
What is your opinion regarding "tongues"? Praying in tongues? Or prophesying in tongues?


What has lead you to form your opinion? I will answer when I know which of the above instances we are speaking of....


Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?I could try.... But I already have.... And it wasn't all that logical.... lol!

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 02:01 AM
What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?

What has lead you to form your opinion?

Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?

If I could clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes my own then that would be my opinion.

kay-gee
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:55 AM
My Opin....The tongues were human languages spoken by the first century church to preach the gospel. Not some heavenly language as purported today. They ceased at the end of te apostolic era.

I arrived by believing the Bible on the subject. Namely only the apostles could pass on the gifts. Obviously no apostles are alive today. Bible says they would cease, and they did, by early 2nd century. Not recorded in church history until early 1900's.

To difficult in light of the Bible teaching on the subject.

all the best...

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 07:28 AM
Speaking in tongues.... Prophesying in tongues....

The first time ever that the Holy Spirit was made manifest through the evidence of speaking in tongues is found in Acts:

Act 2:4 And they were all filled (diffused throughout their souls) with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other (different, foreign) languages (tongues), as the Spirit kept giving them clear and loud expression [in each tongue in appropriate words].

At this point in time.... Everyone in the upper room to include the apostles was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in foreign tongues.... And the neatest part about it was this:

Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabians too--we all hear them speaking in our own native tongues [and telling of] the mighty works of God!

Each foreign group of people, no matter where they came from, heard the mighty works of God proclaimed in their own language.... But this was a group of people gathered in an upper room.... And a hoarde of people in the streets listening.... And it seems that all the people in the upper room were speaking simultaneously.... Yet each group of foreigners heard what they were saying in their own language! This can only make sense if the Holy Spirit caused each of these groups to be able to hear it in their own language (He interpreted it for them)....

Speaking or prophesying in tongues is not just for Apostles:

Act 19:6 And as Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke in [foreign, unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesied.

Not all languages are human languages:

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues.

Notice that some have the ability to speak/prophesy in tongues.... While others are given the ability to interperet them:

1Co 12:28 So God has appointed some in the church [for His own use]: first apostles (special messengers); second prophets (inspired preachers and expounders); third teachers; then wonder-workers; then those with ability to heal the sick; helpers; administrators; [speakers in] different (unknown) tongues.

Here again I see that these are not all human languages that were or are today spoken (but what use are they without love?):

1Co 13:1 IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Yes the bible does say tongues will cease.... Languages.... Miracles.... Prophecies.... Notice that it does not say when they will.... It is more a teaching on love.... Love will never go away.... In this life or in the next.... But we won't have need of the gifts of the Spirit in the next life.... So yes they will go away....

1Co 13:8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

See? It does not say when.... So I feel I can safely conclude the implication was that they would pass away when this earth does.... All things as we know them will not remain.... But that hasn't happened yet....

The gift of speaking in tongues is all well and good.... But usually the only one who benifits is you.... Unless you are in a group and someone else has the interpretation.... Prophesying is better.... As Paul tells us here:

1Co 14:5 Now I wish that you might all speak in [unknown] tongues, but more especially [I want you] to prophesy (to be inspired to preach and interpret the divine will and purpose). He who prophesies [who is inspired to preach and teach] is greater (more useful and more important) than he who speaks in [unknown] tongues, unless he should interpret [what he says], so that the church may be edified and receive good [from it].

1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in [unknown] tongues, how shall I make it to your advantage unless I speak to you either in revelation (disclosure of God's will to man) in knowledge or in prophecy or in instruction?

Indeed.... What use is it if you cannot understand it?

Not only that.... But why would your spirit speak.... Chineese? Or German? Must be speaking in a spiritual language.... But what good does that do anyone else? So your prayer language must just be for you.... So if you pray in your spiritual language.... And someone else is there.... How are they to agree with you?:

1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you bless and render thanks with [your] spirit [thoroughly aroused by the Holy Spirit], how can anyone in the position of an outsider or he who is not gifted with [interpreting of unknown] tongues, say the Amen to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? [I Chron. 16:36; Ps. 106:48.]

Notice here that it says [strange] tongues.... Whereas before it said [foreign/unknown].... Apparently there is a difference:

1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in [strange] tongues (languages) more than any of you or all of you put together;

And apparently Paul had the ability to speak quite a few....

Speaking in tongues is a supernatural sign for unbelievers.... While prophesying is for believers:

1Co 14:22 Thus [unknown] tongues are meant for a [supernatural] sign, not for believers but for unbelievers [on the point of believing], while prophecy (inspired preaching and teaching, interpreting the divine will and purpose) is not for unbelievers [on the point of believing] but for believers.

One is meant to convince unbelievers.... The other to edify the church....

Speaking of the church.... The whole thing is rendered useless if there is no order to it.... Especially if all of us are speaking in tongues at the same time.... And what happens if we do so and there are unbelievers in the congregation at the time?:

1Co 14:23 Therefore, if the whole church assembles and all of you speak in [unknown] tongues, and the ungifted and uninitiated or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are demented?

Well I know I probably would have....

Some say it cannot be helped.... That they are taken over and their tongue wags against their will.... This is completely unbiblical.... As we see here:

1Co 14:32 For the spirits of the prophets (the speakers in tongues) are under the speaker's control [and subject to being silenced as may be necessary],

Ok so which gifts should we want above all others? Check this out:

1Co 14:39 So [to conclude], my brethren, earnestly desire and set your hearts on prophesying (on being inspired to preach and teach and to interpret God's will and purpose), and do not forbid or hinder speaking in [unknown] tongues.

In conclusion.... The belief in the gifts of the Spirit comes from reading the Pauline letters....

They have not ceased yet.... As we still have need of them while this old earth remains....

And no.... there is no logical evidence to refute this opinion.... Which necessitates the illogical.... Which will not do.... lol....

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 01:20 PM
And no.... there is no logical evidence to refute this opinion.... Which necessitates the illogical.... Which will not do.... lol....Great post... I will comment on this statement because it matters how you look at it. Some deny the Gifts of the Holy Spirit so for them, it's totally logical to refute what God is doing through all the rest who surrender to Him and allow themselves to be used for God's purposes and His will to work in the Body of Christ and produce glory for Himself.

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2010, 01:38 PM
Great post... I will comment on this statement because it matters how you look at it. Some deny the Gifts of the Holy Spirit so for them, it's totally logical to refute what God is doing through all the rest who surrender to Him and allow themselves to be used for God's purposes and His will to work in the Body of Christ and produce glory for Himself.

The reason people like myself view the cessationist opinion as illogical is for the reasons watchinginawe posted above . . .


they conclude the answer first and then support it IMO.

To me, this is not a logical or accurate way to go about discovering the truth. Instead of allowing God and His word to form their beliefs, cessationists decide what they believe first and then try to force the scriptures to match it. In other words, such a belief is taking a lack of experience to go along with an insistance that all things fits worldy or natural logic and insisting that scripture match such a belief. This is why I believe such a view is just illogical. Carnal logic is not logic at all. It is only perceived logic.

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 01:47 PM
The reason people like myself view the cessationist opinion as illogical is for the reasons watchinginawe posted above . . .



To me, this is not a logical or accurate way to go about discovering the truth. Instead of allowing God and His word to form their beliefs, cessationists decide what they believe first and then try to force the scriptures to match it. In other words, such a belief is taking a lack of experience to go along with an insistance that all things fits worldy or natural logic and insisting that scripture match such a belief. This is why I believe such a view is just illogical. Carnal logic is not logic at all. It is only perceived logic.This was EXACTLY the reason I was once a cessationist. I looked at all those people handling snakes or whole crowds falling out into tongues, all in the crowd except the cameramen and the purpose that the enemy uses them, effected me... I was deceived into thinking all signs were false, ALL signs. So I justified this in my mind but putting together all the scriptures that any cessationist does and arranged them in the same order all cessationists do and denied the Power of God.

Took God a full year to break me after a single member of this board simply continued to testify how the Lord used her in her church and she challenge me to seek the Lord's will and not my will.

notuptome
Feb 22nd 2010, 02:49 PM
What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?
Based on the bible I have determined that tongues as seen in the modern charasmatic/pentacostal church are not consistant with the tongues historically recorded in Acts and do not show evidence of having received the corrective instruction Paul offered to the Corinthians.


What has lead you to form your opinion?
Study of Gods word and observation of the practices in the modern charasmatic/pentacostal church.


Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?
If my position is consistant with Gods word how could it be refuted? Why would one wish to refute or challenge Gods word?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 03:04 PM
This can only make sense if the Holy Spirit caused each of these groups to be able to hear it in their own language (He interpreted it for them)....

Mary, there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit interpreted the language for them. We do not know exactly what took place. It could just as easily been that those speaking in tongues moved away form each other and those hearing their own language migrated to that speaker. It could also have been that those speaking in tongues took turns speaking. There is no evidence that the Holy Spirit change the languages between the speaker and the hearer.


MaryFreemanIn conclusion.... The belief in the gifts of the Spirit comes from reading the Pauline letters....

They have not ceased yet.... As we still have need of them while this old earth remains....

And no.... there is no logical evidence to refute this opinion.... Which necessitates the illogical.... Which will not do.... lol....

To begin with,


1 Corinthians 13:8 ( KJV )
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

On the contrary there is overwhelming evidence that the gifts would cease. If you look at the other thread on tongues you see it.

HisLeast
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:02 PM
I find it fascinating that such diverse and contradictory opinions each claim categorically to be the only logical conclusion, and entirely based on the word of God.
Its frightening when one considers the number of salvation essential issues, the varying opinions on them, the assurance of correctness, and the complete lack of a final determining authority.

To answer the OP specifically, I used to be of the "tongues were actual languages" group. Today I'm technically undecided but practically extremely skeptical.

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:12 PM
Great post... I will comment on this statement because it matters how you look at it. Some deny the Gifts of the Holy Spirit so for them, it's totally logical to refute what God is doing through all the rest who surrender to Him and allow themselves to be used for God's purposes and His will to work in the Body of Christ and produce glory for Himself.I'm sure it is totally logical for them.... However.... I cannot logically argue against my own opinion due to what I have read.... And my own experiences.... I have not listed my own experiences because I felt the biblical refrences were the best thing to give.... What I mean to say is that my personal experiences are not going to help another decide whether or not the gifts are relevant for today.... Because they were given to me personally to confirm my own beliefs.... Each of us must be convinced in our own minds.... And my personal evidences aren't going to help another believer because they did not happen to that person.... They happened to me....

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:21 PM
I find it fascinating that such diverse and contradictory opinions each claim categorically to be the only logical conclusion, and entirely based on the word of God.
Its frightening when one considers the number of salvation essential issues, the varying opinions on them, the assurance of correctness, and the complete lack of a final determining authority.

To answer the OP specifically, I used to be of the "tongues were actual languages" group. Today I'm technically undecided but practically extremely skeptical.What I have posted was Scripture regarding the gift of speaking/prophesying in tongues.... However.... I will not (refuse to in fact) claim categorically that this is the only logical conclusion.... I will however state it is the only logical conclusion for me.... It's a "been there, done that" sort of thing.... My final determining authority is the word of God.... The Scripture I posted.... I wonder though if the gift of speaking/prophesying in tongues can be classified as a salvation essential issue.... I don't think it is.... If it were.... EVERYONE would have this gift.... And the Scripture I have posted indicates that not everyone does.... We are a diverse group.... Us christians.... And the gifts are designed to fit according to His purpose in each individual person.... However I do not believe you must have the gift of tongues to be saved.... That makes no sense because Paul tells us that confessing with our mouths and believing with our hearts that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior is what we must do to assure our salvation....

HisLeast
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:29 PM
I understand what you're saying and respect your experience.

What I'm getting at is that everyone claims scripture as the final authority. But scripture won't get up and slap ya if you interpret it wrong. Ultimately two people can come to utterly contradictory conclusions each derived from the same text and therefore "authoritative". What I mean by "no authority" in these discussions is that there is no one we can go to to ensure our interpretation of the text is correct.

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:29 PM
I find it fascinating that such diverse and contradictory opinions each claim categorically to be the only logical conclusion, and entirely based on the word of God.
Its frightening when one considers the number of salvation essential issues, the varying opinions on them, the assurance of correctness, and the complete lack of a final determining authority.

To answer the OP specifically, I used to be of the "tongues were actual languages" group. Today I'm technically undecided but practically extremely skeptical.

I think you are coming at things from a more teachable point of view here. It's easier to discover truth if you come from a position of uncertainty but you are open in your heart to receive instruction from the Lord. Literally everyone I've ever witnessed who argued against the gift of tongues did so based upon 1) their lack of experience with the gift, and 2) what they witnessed from others claiming to operate in the gift.

They then take those two experiences, or lack thereof, and go through the scriptures trying to verify their understanding, which is why we end up with 1 Corinthians 13:8 speaking of tongues already being gone and "that which is perfect" being the bible.

I was uncertain at one time as well, but I decided that I was going to let God's word speak for itself without trying to add to it. I could not logically conclude the same thing from 1 Corinthians 13 as cessationists because it is a logical impossibility . . . and that is a fact derived from the text itself.

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:32 PM
To begin with,


1 Corinthians 13:8 ( KJV )
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

On the contrary there is overwhelming evidence that the gifts would cease. If you look at the other thread on tongues you see it.

Please note that I did indeed state they would cease.... And the Scripture you posted is my evidence that they will.... So you are correct.... There is overwhelming evidence to support the cessation of the gifts.... What there is no evidence of.... However.... Is WHEN they would cease.... No supporting evidence period that they would and had ceased "At the end of the Apostolic era." None.... I have searched the new testament for said evidence.... When the gifts would cease simply is not there.... The lack of that evidence leads me to believe that the gifts would pass away when "Heaven and earth" pass away....

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:37 PM
I understand what you're saying and respect your experience.

What I'm getting at is that everyone claims scripture as the final authority. But scripture won't get up and slap ya if you interpret it wrong. Ultimately two people can come to utterly contradictory conclusions each derived from the same text and therefore "authoritative". What I mean by "no authority" in these discussions is that there is no one we can go to to ensure our interpretation of the text is correct.No one? Then why do I have this Holy Spirit bugging me all the time? He just won't stop bringing to my attention all the word of the Lord has to offer! Strange that.... lol.... "Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean NOT on your own understanding."

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:39 PM
I'm sure it is totally logical for them.... However.... I cannot logically argue against my own opinion due to what I have read.... And my own experiences.... I have not listed my own experiences because I felt the biblical refrences were the best thing to give.... What I mean to say is that my personal experiences are not going to help another decide whether or not the gifts are relevant for today.... Because they were given to me personally to confirm my own beliefs.... Each of us must be convinced in our own minds.... And my personal evidences aren't going to help another believer because they did not happen to that person.... They happened to me....I also thought this as well... until Jesus ministered to me that He was giving me "His" testimony for my life as He worked in and through me. It's not "my" testimony, it's His of His healing and working in my life. He also comforted me in the knowledge that many will fight against the testimony He's given me... look around this board. Those that fight are not stopping me nor are they stopping God from continuing to use any and all Christians who allow God to use them and empower them by His Holy Spirit.

I pray that one day you also will testify... the persecution can bring one down considering the most persecution you will experience are from fellow Christians but the Lord continues to enable and strengthen.

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:40 PM
I think you are coming at things from a more teachable point of view here. It's easier to discover truth if you come from a position of uncertainty but you are open in your heart to receive instruction from the Lord. Literally everyone I've ever witnessed who argued against the gift of tongues did so based upon 1) their lack of experience with the gift, and 2) what they witnessed from others claiming to operate in the gift.

They then take those two experiences, or lack thereof, and go through the scriptures trying to verify their understanding, which is why we end up with 1 Corinthians 13:8 speaking of tongues already being gone and "that which is perfect" being the bible.

I was uncertain at one time as well, but I decided that I was going to let God's word speak for itself without trying to add to it. I could not logically conclude the same thing from 1 Corinthians 13 as cessationists because it is a logical impossibility . . . and that is a fact derived from the text itself.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.... I don't think anyone who comes to the Word already convinced can learn anything.... Because when they do come it is to find any Scripture they can to support their preconceived beliefs.... Which doesn't exactly make one pliable....

HisLeast
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:41 PM
No one? Then why do I have this Holy Spirit bugging me all the time? He just won't stop bringing to my attention all the word of the Lord has to offer! Strange that.... lol.... "Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean NOT on your own understanding."
Yes, no one. Every heresy I've ever heard was spoken by someone who believed the holy spirit validated what they were saying.

EDIT: I want to be exceptionally clear here, I'm not accusing you of being a heretic.

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:48 PM
I also thought this as well... until Jesus ministered to me that He was giving me "His" testimony for my life as He worked in and through me. It's not "my" testimony, it's His of His healing and working in my life. He also comforted me in the knowledge that many will fight against the testimony He's given me... look around this board. Those that fight are not stopping me nor are they stopping God from continuing to use any and all Christians who allow God to use them and empower them by His Holy Spirit.

I pray that one day you also will testify... the persecution can bring one down considering the most persecution you will experience are from fellow Christians but the Lord continues to enable and strengthen.
TOYOTA(You asked for it.... You got it....)!

I have the gift of speaking in tongues.... The gift of knowledge.... And God has used me to prophesy (in tongues).... Another was indeed there to interperate....

I was here on this board as IVBNSETFREE.... And I was speaking to a young lady who had just gotten a job as a gardener.... We were discussing her life and things.... And the Lord told me to tell her "Watch out for the thorns...." She wanted to know what that meant and I told her that she should take it quite literally....

Later that evening she posted for me a picture of the types of plants she was tending.... One was hidden from sight....

And it was a thorny little booger....

I still believe to this day God gave her that simply to show her He does indeed see her.... And will indeed take care of her....

The prophesy came to me concerning my brother.... My grandmother and my aunt bore witness.... And my aunt interperated....

But as I said.... I don't feel my experiences alone can help anyone decide for themselves....

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:55 PM
Yes, no one. Every heresy I've ever heard was spoken by someone who believed the holy spirit validated what they were saying.Do me a favor and be careful what you call a heresy in regards to the Holy Spirit? Because you do not know beyond doubt they were speaking a heresy....

That being said....

There is such a One as you seek..... And He will 9 times out of 10 validate through His word....

I do not believe for one moment that God left us alone to struggle through His word on our own....

His Holy Spirit is who I turn to for interpretation.... Because my own interpretation.... My own understanding is severely flawed.... I am only human....

So I go to His word and ask His Holy Guide to show me....

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:56 PM
Please note that I did indeed state they would cease.... And the Scripture you posted is my evidence that they will.... So you are correct.... There is overwhelming evidence to support the cessation of the gifts.... What there is no evidence of.... However.... Is WHEN they would cease.... No supporting evidence period that they would and had ceased "At the end of the Apostolic era." None.... I have searched the new testament for said evidence.... When the gifts would cease simply is not there.... The lack of that evidence leads me to believe that the gifts would pass away when "Heaven and earth" pass away....

Well, Paul said that The gift of tongues would cease. In contrast to prophecy and knowledge which would cease when the maturity comes, tongues would cease of its own accord. What was the purpose of tongues? Paul tells us that it was for a sign to the unbelievers. He says,


1 Corinthians 14:21-22 ( KJV )
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Let's see where it is written.


Isaiah 28:1-29 ( KJV )
Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

The Tongues we see in Acts are the fulfilment of this prophecy in Isaiah. Clearly from Isaiah we see that this was a sign of judgement against Israel, more precisely the leadership in Israel for their rejection of Christ. This is the reference that Paul is making when he says it is written in the Law. My question is, since this judgment has already taken place, why would the gift tongues continue, it has already served its purpose?

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:56 PM
TOYOTA(You asked for it.... You got it....)!

I have the gift of speaking in tongues.... The gift of knowledge.... And God has used me to prophesy (in tongues).... Another was indeed there to interperate....

I was here on this board as IVBNSETFREE.... And I was speaking to a young lady who had just gotten a job as a gardener.... We were discussing her life and things.... And the Lord told me to tell her "Watch out for the thorns...." She wanted to know what that meant and I told her that she should take it quite literally....

Later that evening she posted for me a picture of the types of plants she was tending.... One was hidden from sight....

And it was a thorny little booger....

I still believe to this day God gave her that simply to show her He does indeed see her.... And will indeed take care of her....

The prophesy came to me concerning my brother.... My grandmother and my aunt bore witness.... And my aunt interperated....

But as I said.... I don't feel my experiences alone can help anyone decide for themselves....Well Sister, as the Lord begins to use your testimony for His purposes... you'll know it because it will begin to be attacked by other Christians who don't operate in the Spirit.

HisLeast
Feb 22nd 2010, 04:59 PM
Do me a favor and be careful what you call a heresy in regards to the Holy Spirit? Because you do not know beyond doubt they were speaking a heresy....
After reviewing my post, I can see how it came off that way. I want to be clear though that I wasn't stating anything in this thread was heresy (I previously declared "undecided"). I'm saying that even heretics believe they've received validation from the holy spirit. Reliance on the holy spirit as an "authority" for interpretation is part of the problem, not part of the solution, because ultimately people's sense of holy spirit validation boils down to personal feelings.

divaD
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:13 PM
I also thought this as well... until Jesus ministered to me that He was giving me "His" testimony for my life as He worked in and through me. It's not "my" testimony, it's His of His healing and working in my life. He also comforted me in the knowledge that many will fight against the testimony He's given me... look around this board. Those that fight are not stopping me nor are they stopping God from continuing to use any and all Christians who allow God to use them and empower them by His Holy Spirit.

I pray that one day you also will testify... the persecution can bring one down considering the most persecution you will experience are from fellow Christians but the Lord continues to enable and strengthen.



Why do you consider it persecution because some choose not to agree with you about tongues? You should try being premil in the ETC these days. it's unreal how many disagree with premil, but I don't feel like I'm being persecuted by other disagreeing Christians tho, even tho I may very well be.

In my mind, modern day tongues are illogical, considering no one is being edified by them..not even the one speaking in them, since no one on the entire planet has a clue to what they're speaking, including the one speaking in tongues. With that in mind, what makes modern day tongues logical?


Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


It looks to me like there was plenty of edifying taking place here, not only by the hearers, but the speakers as well. I've been around alleged tongues, even spoke in alleged tongues for awhile, yet not one time do I ever recall one single soul, including myself, as ever being edified by the experience. With that in mind, modern day tongues strike me as illogical. If folks were truly being edified by the experience, I would perhaps see it differently.

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:19 PM
Why do you consider it persecution because some choose not to agree with you about tongues? You should try being premil in the ETC these days. it's unreal how many disagree with premil, but I don't feel like I'm being persecuted by other disagreeing Christians tho, even tho I may very well be.

In my mind, modern day tongues are illogical, considering no one is being edified by them..not even the one speaking in them, since no one on the entire planet has a clue to what they're speaking, including the one speaking in tongues. With that in mind, what makes modern day tongues logical?


Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


It looks to me like there was plenty of edifying taking place here, not only by the hearers, but the speakers as well. I've been around alleged tongues, even spoke in alleged tongues for awhile, yet not one time do I ever recall one single soul, including myself, as ever being edified by the experience. With that in mind, modern day tongues strike me as illogical. If folks were truly being edified by the experience, I would perhaps see it differently.I base my use of the term persecution because that is exactly what I was doing when I was a cessationist. Do I, as in myelf, feel persecuted... I guess by my words one owuld think so but the reality is, it is the testimony Jesus has given me that is persecuted and He specifically tells us that because He is in us all, He WILL BE persecuted... we are just vessels in this capacity as "we" are persecuted... IOWs, receivers of the verbal persecution while what the Lord is doing in and through us is completely ignored. Seems that those who ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit resist the testimony given to those who don't as they give this testimony.

amazzin
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:25 PM
Why do you consider it persecution because some choose not to agree with you about tongues? .......
In my mind, modern day tongues are illogical, considering no one is being edified by them..

To answer your question This is why some feel persecuted. Simply saying "I don't agree" or "I don't understand" would suffice

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:28 PM
This was EXACTLY the reason I was once a cessationist. I looked at all those people handling snakes or whole crowds falling out into tongues, all in the crowd except the cameramen and the purpose that the enemy uses them, effected me... I was deceived into thinking all signs were false, ALL signs. So I justified this in my mind but putting together all the scriptures that any cessationist does and arranged them in the same order all cessationists do and denied the Power of God.

Took God a full year to break me after a single member of this board simply continued to testify how the Lord used her in her church and she challenge me to seek the Lord's will and not my will.Who in their right mind would handle a snake??????? This to me is totally senseless....

I have heard of such things.... And they too use Scripture to back it up.... Remember when Paul was bitten by the viper? Coupled with "nothing shall by any means hurt you." These are the things they used to validate their foolishness (thats right.... I went there)....

The only reason Paul was not affected by the viper was because God was watching over him. And God was because Paul is His child....

The fact that the viper did not affect Paul was not due to Paul's faith.... It did not prove Paul's faithfulness to God.... It proved God's faithfulness to Paul....

Your logical mind will tell you not to mess with that snake because it will strike.

Paul was not messing with the snake.... Paul did not know the snake was there....

God did....

Thus God protected Paul against the viper because he could not protect himself from something he did not know was there....

Messing with snakes and drinking gasoline is foolishness.... And it is testing God.... NOT trusting God....

God set up the laws of nature.... So why would God break His own law? The snake is programmed to strike.... And it did in Paul's case....

God did not keep the snake from striking Paul.... He prevented the snakes venom from having it's effects on Paul because Paul could not dodge the snakes strike as he did not know it was there....

And no wonder you were a cessationist....

Playing with snakes is stupid! lol....

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:33 PM
Who in their right mind would handle a snake??????? This to me is totally senseless....

I have heard of such things.... And they too use Scripture to back it up.... Remember when Paul was bitten by the viper? Coupled with "nothing shall by any means hurt you." These are the things they used to validate their foolishness (thats right.... I went there)....

The only reason Paul was not affected by the viper was because God was watching over him. And God was because Paul is His child....

The fact that the viper did not affect Paul was not due to Paul's faith.... It did not prove Paul's faithfulness to God.... It proved God's faithfulness to Paul....

Your logical mind will tell you not to mess with that snake because it will strike.

Paul was not messing with the snake.... Paul did not know the snake was there....

God did....

Thus God protected Paul against the viper because he could not protect himself from something he did not know was there....

Messing with snakes and drinking gasoline is foolishness.... And it is testing God.... NOT trusting God....

God set up the laws of nature.... So why would God break His own law? The snake is programmed to strike.... And it did in Paul's case....

God did not keep the snake from striking Paul.... He prevented the snakes venom from having it's effects on Paul because Paul could not dodge the snakes strike as he did not know it was there....

And no wonder you were a cessationist....

Playing with snakes is stupid! lol....

Amen, I said most of this in another thread about snake handling and how this is false as the example in scripture is the protection from poison as we see Paul bit and was not harmed at all. He wasn't playing with the snake at all.

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:36 PM
To answer your question This is why some feel persecuted. Simply saying "I don't agree" or "I don't understand" would sufficeAmen... how does one feel when the Lord uses them and then another Christian says... I don't agree!

OK... they don't agree with me or they don't agree with God using me, or they actually don't agree with God... let's get this straight first.

divaD
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:46 PM
To answer your question This is why some feel persecuted. Simply saying "I don't agree" or "I don't understand" would suffice

In my case, I'm speaking from past experience, so it's not like I don't understand or something. But even if I were still speaking in tongues today, and folks were disagreeing with me left and right, it would be no big deal to me. So if something seems illogical to me, based on past experiences, and what is recorded in Scriptures, I then don't have the right to express that I find modern day tongues illogical? Why don't I have that right, if that's the way I feel, after adding up the whole picture? What if some were claiming that Jesus didn't physically rise from the dead, and that I stated that I found that illogical, based on what is recorded in Scriptures, would I have a right to express that I find that illogical, or should I worry more about possibly offending someone?

goykodesh
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:49 PM
My relationship with God has been in English and Hebrew all my life. If God required more of me in the sense of communication, I'm sure I would know after all this time.

What God has shown me though, is that my relationship with Him is not contingent on outward appearances, magic, confusion or any manifestation that could be perceived as more special than anyone else.

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:50 PM
Who in their right mind would handle a snake??????? This to me is totally senseless....

I have heard of such things.... And they too use Scripture to back it up.... Remember when Paul was bitten by the viper? Coupled with "nothing shall by any means hurt you." These are the things they used to validate their foolishness (thats right.... I went there)....

The only reason Paul was not affected by the viper was because God was watching over him. And God was because Paul is His child....

The fact that the viper did not affect Paul was not due to Paul's faith.... It did not prove Paul's faithfulness to God.... It proved God's faithfulness to Paul....

Your logical mind will tell you not to mess with that snake because it will strike.

Paul was not messing with the snake.... Paul did not know the snake was there....

God did....

Thus God protected Paul against the viper because he could not protect himself from something he did not know was there....

Messing with snakes and drinking gasoline is foolishness.... And it is testing God.... NOT trusting God....

God set up the laws of nature.... So why would God break His own law? The snake is programmed to strike.... And it did in Paul's case....

God did not keep the snake from striking Paul.... He prevented the snakes venom from having it's effects on Paul because Paul could not dodge the snakes strike as he did not know it was there....

And no wonder you were a cessationist....

Playing with snakes is stupid! lol....

Hi Mary,

I think you are missing the point. This like tongues was one of the signs that was to follow believers, yet not many Christians are willing pet a few rattlers. If you believe the gifts are active today why would you hesitate to hold a viper? Paul is the only instance recorded in Scripture, how do you know that other Christians of the time did not readily pick up vipers? This is one thing that bothers me about the those who claim the gifts are active. The two gifts that can readily be tested for authenticity are handling of snakes and drinking of poison yet no one seems to claim these gifts I wonder why?

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:51 PM
In my case, I'm speaking from past experience, so it's not like I don't understand or something. But even if I were still speaking in tongues today, and folks were disagreeing with me left and right, it would be no big deal to me. So if something seems illogical to me, based on past experiences, and what is recorded in Scriptures, I then don't have the right to express that I find modern day tongues illogical? Why don't I have that right, if that's the way I feel, after adding up the whole picture? What if some were claiming that Jesus didn't physically rise from the dead, and that I stated that I found that illogical, based on what is recorded in Scriptures, would I have a right to express that I find that illogical, or should I worry more about possibly offending someone?Ya don't offend me dude, no one here does no matter how hard they "disagree" with me. Offense is a little different then persecution. Offense is taking it personal, persecution is the result of people attacking God, inside of me.

Don't matter if it's from non-Christians or even other Christians.. which is sad. Why do I feel the way I do... well, how is God feeling when people, fellow Christians disagree with what God is doing and has done through me?

Persecution is directed at God, not me but I'm human and sometime I may get fleshy in a reply and I admit this.

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:53 PM
My relationship with God has been in English and Hebrew all my life. If God required more of me in the sense of communication, I'm sure I would know after all this time.

This is exactly the point I was making regarding the cessationist experience.

In other words . . .

"This is my experience; therefore, if God wanted me to believe something different He would take care of it."

The problem is that God has already revealed what He can and will do in His word, and it is now our responsibility to believe . . . not wait until God disproves our unbelief.

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:55 PM
To answer your question This is why some feel persecuted. Simply saying "I don't agree" or "I don't understand" would suffice

I could ask the same thing when the issue of non resistance is raised. People don't simply say "I don't agree" or "I don't understand". Instead they start throwing OT Scriptures at me. I don't feel persecuted. And on that issue I may stand alone.

tango
Feb 22nd 2010, 05:58 PM
What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?

What has lead you to form your opinion?

Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?

I've seen and attended churches ranging from very traditional Anglican to extreme charismatic, and am now settled in a church where we allow the Spirit to move on God's terms and don't expect that everybody will respond in the same way.

I see tongues as one of the gifts of the Spirit, albeit one of the lesser gifts (1Co 14:39). As such tongues are one of many possible externally visible signs of the Holy Spirit at work.

It is unfortunate when people regard tongues as the only valid sign that the Spirit is at work, and indeed judge others on the basis of whether they do speak in tongues. Paul was very clear in 1Co13 that tongues without love might as well be a sounding gong.

I believe misunderstandings on both sides can be very damaging. It seems to me that at one extreme the charismatic fringe that questions someone's salvation if they haven't spoken in tongues yet today can drive people to reject tongues and the gifts completely, and at the other extreme the rejection of anything that looks like the Spirit moving can drive people towards the charismatic fringe. As with so much else it seems we can dishonour God by rejecting the gifts he seeks to give us, we can dishonour God by misusing the gifts, or we can honour and glorify God by using the gifts he gives us in the way he intended.

I don't see Scriptural support for the idea the gifts have passed, and believe that to be a misinterpretation of 1Co 13:10, among other verses. I don't think it makes sense to attempt to clearly present the opposing argument as I consider it to be a misunderstanding of Scripture.

While each of us may receive different gifts we should all show the fruit of the Spirit. If we don't speak in tongues (or don't show any other specific gift) it is simply because God has not chosen to give us that gift. If we don't show the fruit one might wonder which side we are on - Jesus said "by their fruits you shall know them", not "by their tongues you shall know them". Jesus is the vine and if we abide in him we will bear much fruit, and on our own we do not bear fruit (John 15:1-6). So if we do not bear fruit we have a much more serious problem than if we do not speak in tongues.

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 06:01 PM
The Tongues we see in Acts are the fulfilment of this prophecy in Isaiah. Clearly from Isaiah we see that this was a sign of judgement against Israel, more precisely the leadership in Israel for their rejection of Christ. This is the reference that Paul is making when he says it is written in the Law. My question is, since this judgment has already taken place, why would the gift tongues continue, it has already served its purpose?

I missed Judgment day?!?

I am going to be late to my own funeral.... Just watch and see....

Revelations clearly tells us that the Judgment for all mankind will come when Jesus returns....

If I have missed that.... I am going to be devastated....

Based on your logic there are two judgment days????

Revelations speaks of one.... And I am of the firm belief that it is the same one Isaiah speaks of....

Why?

Because the Jews are to this day hearing people of many different nationalities proclaiming Christ as the Messiah they so long for....

And the leadership of Israel still is not listening....

In fact.... One leader of Israel states (and this is totally ridiculous IMO) that the Messiah the gentiles speak of is their own Messiah.... Not the Messiah of the Jews....

Funny.... I didn't know there were two....

I actually believed that God had only ONE Son.... And that Paul was correct when he said that Jesus is the Savior of Jew and Gentile alike....

Strange that....

Freek
Feb 22nd 2010, 06:12 PM
Hi Mary,

I think you are missing the point. This like tongues was one of the signs that was to follow believers, yet not many Christians are willing pet a few rattlers. If you believe the gifts are active today why would you hesitate to hold a viper? Paul is the only instance recorded in Scripture, how do you know that other Christians of the time did not readily pick up vipers? This is one thing that bothers me about the those who claim the gifts are active. The two gifts that can readily be tested for authenticity are handling of snakes and drinking of poison yet no one seems to claim these gifts I wonder why?

Either Jesus lied or we - the church at large - have no clue what faith really is. I'd go for the second option. :D It's safer, don't you think? Everybody who would tell Jesus to His face that He lied, please stand!

divaD
Feb 22nd 2010, 06:12 PM
Ya don't offend me dude, no one here does no matter how hard they "disagree" with me. Offense is a little different then persecution. Offense is taking it personal, persecution is the result of people attacking God, inside of me.

Don't matter if it's from non-Christians or even other Christians.. which is sad. Why do I feel the way I do... well, how is God feeling when people, fellow Christians disagree with what God is doing and has done through me?

Persecution is directed at God, not me but I'm human and sometime I may get fleshy in a reply and I admit this.



I truly appreite that, slug1, that I don't offend you, because honestly, that is never my intention. I just have a unique way of communicating my thoughts I guess.


Let's start here then, keeping in mind that I personally never witnessed any of this. I choose to use the term 'modern day tongues' since I'm not entirely convinced these are the same tongues of the 1st century. So that's the only reason I am using that term.

Can you explain how the modern day Christian is edified when speaking in tongues, and also how the hearer/s are edified? In what way is anyone edified, keeping in mind, from my past experiences, I never witnessed anyone being edified. How could I have missed all of that? What I'm looking for are some answers based on actual experience. Explain to me based on actual experience, how the speaker and hearer are both edified by modern day tongues.

Freek
Feb 22nd 2010, 06:19 PM
Can you explain how the modern day Christian is edified when speaking in tongues, and also how the hearer/s are edified? In what way is anyone edified, keeping in mind, from my past experiences, I never witnessed anyone being edified. How could I have missed all of that? What I'm looking for are some answers based on actual experience. Explain to me based on actual experience, how the speaker and hearer are both edified by modern day tongues.

Are there mysteries in the Bible or not? I ask this for a reason.

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2010, 06:22 PM
Can you explain how the modern day Christian is edified when speaking in tongues, and also how the hearer/s are edified? In what way is anyone edified, keeping in mind, from my past experiences, I never witnessed anyone being edified. How could I have missed all of that? What I'm looking for are some answers based on actual experience. Explain to me based on actual experience, how the speaker and hearer are both edified by modern day tongues.

Before I answer your question, would you mind answering a couple for me?

If not, that's fine . . . but I think it would help to see what you believe first.

1) What do you believe about the spoken word? In other words, do you think what we speak has a powerful effect?

2) What do you believe about spiritual groaning (To clarify, I do not believe these groanings are the same as speaking in tongues)?

Thanks!

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 06:28 PM
Hi Mary,

I think you are missing the point. This like tongues was one of the signs that was to follow believers, yet not many Christians are willing pet a few rattlers. If you believe the gifts are active today why would you hesitate to hold a viper? Paul is the only instance recorded in Scripture, how do you know that other Christians of the time did not readily pick up vipers? This is one thing that bothers me about the those who claim the gifts are active. The two gifts that can readily be tested for authenticity are handling of snakes and drinking of poison yet no one seems to claim these gifts I wonder why? Um.... No.... Handling snakes and drinking poison are not gifts of the Spirit.... Neither should either of them be done....

Paul did NOT handle the viper.... period.... readilly or otherwise....

Paul would not have done so either.... Because Paul.... Like the rest of us.... Was not stupid.... Paul knew vipers strike.... Period....

The fact that Paul was not affected by the snakes venom was proof that God is faithful to those that believe....

But just because He will protect you from that which will harm you does not mean you have the right to test it.... God gave you your brain for a reason....

Common sense will tell you that snake is going to do what God Himself programmed it to do.... STRIKE....

Following that logic it makes sense NOT to play with snakes....

Again.... HANDLING SNAKES AND DRINKING POISONOUS SUBSTANCES ARE NOT GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT....

There is the gift of speaking in tongues....
The gift of prophesying (in the language of men and of angels)....
The gift of discernment of the spirits....
The gift of knowledge....
And the gift of healing by the laying on of hands....


The two gifts that can readily be tested for authenticity are handling of snakes and drinking of poison yet no one seems to claim these gifts I wonder why?

Because they are not gifts thats why....

When Jesus spoke in Mark 16:17-18 of "picking up snakes" and "drinking poison" and stated those things would not harm us....

He said it was a sign of His existance in our lives....

Couple that with Paul's experience.... He did indeed pick up a snake.... But he did not know the snake was there.... Or logic would have told him to leave the snake be....

And since he was not stupid(that's right.... I went there again).... He would have left the snake alone....

Jesus NEVER told anyone to deliberately play with snakes or drink gasoline on purpose....

For ANY reason....

He says that if you happen to accidentally (IMO based on Paul's experience) pick a snake up (along with a bundle of sticks say) or drink something that happens to be poisoned (without your knowledge) it won't harm you.... Because God protects those who believe in His Son from things they themselves have no knowledge of....

Here is a question:

If handling of snakes and drinking of poison are gifts of the Spirit....

Why do those who practice such stupidity(Great gravy! I went there again!)die?

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 06:29 PM
Either Jesus lied or we - the church at large - have no clue what faith really is. I'd go for the second option. :D It's safer, don't you think? Everybody who would tell Jesus to His face that He lied, please stand!Sitting down with a quickness!!!!!

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 06:35 PM
I truly appreite that, slug1, that I don't offend you, because honestly, that is never my intention. I just have a unique way of communicating my thoughts I guess. Hooah dude... we all are unique!



Let's start here then, keeping in mind that I personally never witnessed any of this. I choose to use the term 'modern day tongues' since I'm not entirely convinced these are the same tongues of the 1st century. So that's the only reason I am using that term.

Can you explain how the modern day Christian is edified when speaking in tongues, and also how the hearer/s are edified?OK... before I answer this I will use scripture and my personal experiences. I myself am not gifted with Tongues so my edification by tongues is only when interpretation has occured.

So... to the one who is gifted and prays in tongues. First I can only go by what scripture states and then compare this with those who pray in tongues and how they say "they" feel:

1 Cor 14: 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for[a] he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

Now, with this same scripture, how are others edified you ask:

1 Cor 14:1 Cor 14: 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for[a] he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.


The rest of 1 Cor 14 goes into more detail but in answer to your question, this is the scritpure that supports what God's will and purpose is for the gift of tongues/prophecy.





In what way is anyone edified, keeping in mind, from my past experiences, I never witnessed anyone being edified. How could I have missed all of that? What I'm looking for are some answers based on actual experience. Explain to me based on actual experience, how the speaker and hearer are both edified by modern day tongues.Well, I can only use myself... first, I don't know "how" you missed it specially when you state that you prayed in tongues. I don't know because I have never prayed in tongues. OK, as for myself and I think you've read this testimony somewhere else on the board when I posted this awhile back: About 3 years ago (now) I was silently praying to God for the gifts of Knowledge and of Wisdom. This was how I was led to pray by the Holy Spirit. I prayed as the Bible tells us, without ceasing. One night I was with a prayer group from church which did include one of the anointed prophets of our church. As the praying began, eventually this prophet began to pray in tongues and they interpreted what God was saying. God called me by name and told me that not only has He heard my prayers for the gifts of Knowledge and of Wisdom but has also answered the prayer. He told me to STOP praying and start listening.

I have operated in these gifts at my church ever since. Not only my church but for all the Body of Christ as well. So, was I edified by the interpretation of tongues... you bet.

divaD
Feb 22nd 2010, 07:10 PM
Are there mysteries in the Bible or not? I ask this for a reason.


I can pretty much guess why you asked that, but if you do a little research on how the NT defines mysteries, you would see it's linked to something hidden in the past that is now being revealed. Do a simple word search for 'mystery' mysteries', then take note of how it's being applied in other passages, since this is how it's being applied in 1 Cor 14. It seems to me that tongues are linked to prophecy and revelation(not the book of Revelation tho), just revelation in general. What this tells me, if the 1st century tongues are still in operation today, then apparently there's some new revlations to be discovered, since, for some reason, these revelations weren't included in the Scriptures before they were made read only.

Freek
Feb 22nd 2010, 07:27 PM
I can pretty much guess why you asked that, but if you do a little research on how the NT defines mysteries, you would see it's linked to something hidden in the past that is now being revealed. Do a simple word search for 'mystery' mysteries', then take note of how it's being applied in other passages, since this is how it's being applied in 1 Cor 14. It seems to me that tongues are linked to prophecy and revelation(not the book of Revelation tho), just revelation in general. What this tells me, if the 1st century tongues are still in operation today, then apparently there's some new revlations to be discovered, since, for some reason, these revelations weren't included in the Scriptures before they were made read only.

Let's not go into the semantics. Do you understand the fullness of every verse from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21? This is what amazes me the most about this forum. People can willy nilly say that a scripture means this or that, while I struggle months on end with one sentence of a scripture. How can I also have that certainty so quickly?

divaD
Feb 22nd 2010, 07:38 PM
Let's not go into the semantics. Do you understand the fullness of every verse from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21? This is what amazes me the most about this forum. People can willy nilly say that a scripture means this or that, while I struggle months on end with one sentence of a scripture. How can I also have that certainty so quickly?


Apparently you're missing my point entirely, since based on your reply, I simply have to wonder if you even took the time to first research what I suggested?

divaD
Feb 22nd 2010, 07:47 PM
Before I answer your question, would you mind answering a couple for me?

If not, that's fine . . . but I think it would help to see what you believe first.

1) What do you believe about the spoken word? In other words, do you think what we speak has a powerful effect?

2) What do you believe about spiritual groaning (To clarify, I do not believe these groanings are the same as speaking in tongues)?

Thanks!

In answer to question 1, sure, I agree that what we speak has a powerful effect, but not sure where you're going with this tho.

As to the answer to queston 2, I take it that you're referring to Romans 8:26?

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

I'm not really sure what to make of it, since most who speak in tongues use this passage to show that tongues are an unintellible language that no one understands. I would be interested to hear your take on this, since you seem to indicate that this is not the same as speaking in tongues.

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2010, 08:08 PM
In answer to question 1, sure, I agree that what we speak has a powerful effect, but not sure where you're going with this tho.

I was just wondering what sort of power you believe we have through the things we speak (either positive or negative). I started a thread on that a week or so ago. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?203296-The-Power-of-the-Spoken-Word

Another reason I ask is this . . .

Is it reasonable to believe that if the spoken word carries with it power . . . couldn't supernatural manifestations occur regardless of whether we have a cognitive understanding of what is spoken?


As to the answer to queston 2, I take it that you're referring to Romans 8:26?

Not just Romans 8:26 . . .

The scriptures also reveal that even Jesus experienced the same type phenomenon.

John 11:32-39
Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.” Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. And He said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.” Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!” And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?” Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”


Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

I'm not really sure what to make of it, since most who speak in tongues use this passage to show that tongues are an unintellible language that no one understands. I would be interested to hear your take on this, since you seem to indicate that this is not the same as speaking in tongues.

I do not agree with those who claim Romans 8:26 is speaking of the gift of tongues. However, at the same time I do believe it can show us how tongues can be edifying to the speaker even though the speaker does not understand them.

First of all, do you believe that these groanings that Jesus experienced and those that Paul says the Spirit does on our behalf can be audible? Secondly, the passage seems to indicate that these groanings are spiritual intercession on our behalf because we know not what we should pray. Do you think tongues could perform the same sort of function? I mean, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that when a believer speaks in tongues his spirit prays to God. 1 Corinthians 6:17 also says that we are one spirit with Him. So, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that communication in prayer can take place without our understanding for some good cause. Does this not serve as evidence that someone could be edified without understanding what is being prayed?

Freek
Feb 22nd 2010, 08:08 PM
Apparently you're missing my point entirely, since based on your reply, I simply have to wonder if you even took the time to first research what I suggested?

I try not to ask silly and irrelevant questions. I'm sorry if that was how it came across.

MaryFreeman
Feb 22nd 2010, 08:16 PM
Apparently you're missing my point entirely, since based on your reply, I simply have to wonder if you even took the time to first research what I suggested?This is a bit too sharp in my opinion.... No offense to you sister.... But you just made Freek feel stupid.... Whether that was your intent or not does not matter to me.... If it is your point Freek missed.... The fault for Freek missing it is yours.... Mayhap you should state your point more fully? Just a suggestion.... Again.... I mean no offense.... But I don't feel this statement was fair to Freek as this was Freeks question:

People can willy nilly say that a scripture means this or that, while I struggle for months on end with one sentence of a scripture. How can I also have that certainty so quickly? Do you feel you have done your best to fully answer the question?

If not.... Why would that be Freeks fault?

I also have stated things.... Made suggestions.... If someone shows that they don't understand or have missed my point.... I simply think "I must not have explained myself well enough".... I do not accuse them of not "taking the time to first research" what I have suggested.... I simply find another way to say what I am trying to say.... Until I find the way to say it that makes the most sense to that particular reader....

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 08:18 PM
I mean, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that when a believer speaks in tongues his spirit prays to God. 1 Corinthians 6:17 also says that we are one spirit with Him. So, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that communication in prayer can take place without our understanding for some good cause. Does this not serve as evidence that someone could be edified without understanding what is being prayed?VR, thanks for bringing this up. As scripture states, praying in tongues is "our" spirit praying directly to God. I will safely say that people expect a "physical" feeling to be associated with this type of praying. Many I know who pray in tongues say they are edified... but not physically. Hard to explain especially since I don't pray in tongues. I can relate this way however. When the Lord speaks through a person such as a prophet, the meaning and impact of those words reach me to my core... I'm convicted, changed... whatever opinion, thoughts, feelings are instantly aligned with what God says. I am edified but it's not physical at all... it goes much deeper, to my core, my very spirit in me.

Hope this makes sense.

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2010, 08:38 PM
VR, thanks for bringing this up. As scripture states, praying in tongues is "our" spirit praying directly to God. I will safely say that people expect a "physical" feeling to be associated with this type of praying. Many I know who pray in tongues say they are edified... but not physically. Hard to explain especially since I don't pray in tongues. I can relate this way however. When the Lord speaks through a person such as a prophet, the meaning and impact of those words reach me to my core... I'm convicted, changed... whatever opinion, thoughts, feelings are instantly aligned with what God says. I am edified but it's not physical at all... it goes much deeper, to my core, my very spirit in me.

Hope this makes sense.

Edification can be described in an assortment of ways. I would describe all of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control as edification.

I have felt joy and peace come over me while praying in tongues. I have felt a closeness with God and an assurance as well. There are a number of ways a person could be edified while not understanding in a verbal sort of way what has been said.

divaD
Feb 22nd 2010, 08:48 PM
I was just wondering what sort of power you believe we have through the things we speak (either positive or negative). I started a thread on that a week or so ago. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?203296-The-Power-of-the-Spoken-Word

Another reason I ask is this . . .

Is it reasonable to believe that if the spoken word carries with it power . . . couldn't supernatural manifestations occur regardless of whether we have a cognitive understanding of what is spoken?



Not just Romans 8:26 . . .

The scriptures also reveal that even Jesus experienced the same type phenomenon.

John 11:32-39
Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.” Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. And He said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.” Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!” And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?” Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”



I do not agree with those who claim Romans 8:26 is speaking of the gift of tongues. However, at the same time I do believe it can show us how tongues can be edifying to the speaker even though the speaker does not understand them.

First of all, do you believe that these groanings that Jesus experienced and those that Paul says the Spirit does on our behalf can be audible? Secondly, the passage seems to indicate that these groanings are spiritual intercession on our behalf because we know not what we should pray. Do you think tongues could perform the same sort of function? I mean, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that when a believer speaks in tongues his spirit prays to God. 1 Corinthians 6:17 also says that we are one spirit with Him. So, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that communication in prayer can take place without our understanding for some good cause. Does this not serve as evidence that someone could be edified without understanding what is being prayed?


Hi, VR, you indeed make a very valid point here. As far as I'm concerned, you proved the point rather well. But I'm still not clear on how anyone speaking in tongues, that neither they nor the hearer understands, how anyone is being edified. As per your point, I can see how the concept works, I'm just not certain the concept also applies to speaking in tongues, at least especially publically. I can see how the concept might work when done privately, but from what I remember, speaking in tongues was far from being done privately, plus I don't ever recall any interpretations taking place. Who was actually edified when practically the entire congregation was speaking/praying in tongues at the same time? Is this the way it happens in most tongue speaking churches today, or was I just in one of those extreme Charismatic churches that Tango was describing earlier?
When I think back, I did visit other tongue speaking churches. It was the same pattern in those as well...practically the entire congregation speaking/praying in tongues simultaneously.


As to your first part of your post, I think I'll first look into that thread you started, since it sounds interesting. I seem to be spending a bit too much time in the ETC forum these days...apparently I'm missing out on some great discussions in this forum.

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 08:54 PM
Um.... No.... Handling snakes and drinking poison are not gifts of the Spirit.... Neither should either of them be done....

Paul did NOT handle the viper.... period.... readilly or otherwise....

Paul would not have done so either.... Because Paul.... Like the rest of us.... Was not stupid.... Paul knew vipers strike.... Period....

The fact that Paul was not affected by the snakes venom was proof that God is faithful to those that believe....

But just because He will protect you from that which will harm you does not mean you have the right to test it.... God gave you your brain for a reason....

Common sense will tell you that snake is going to do what God Himself programmed it to do.... STRIKE....

Following that logic it makes sense NOT to play with snakes....

Again.... HANDLING SNAKES AND DRINKING POISONOUS SUBSTANCES ARE NOT GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT....

There is the gift of speaking in tongues....
The gift of prophesying (in the language of men and of angels)....
The gift of discernment of the spirits....
The gift of knowledge....
And the gift of healing by the laying on of hands....



Because they are not gifts thats why....

When Jesus spoke in Mark 16:17-18 of "picking up snakes" and "drinking poison" and stated those things would not harm us....

He said it was a sign of His existance in our lives....

Couple that with Paul's experience.... He did indeed pick up a snake.... But he did not know the snake was there.... Or logic would have told him to leave the snake be....

And since he was not stupid(that's right.... I went there again).... He would have left the snake alone....

Jesus NEVER told anyone to deliberately play with snakes or drink gasoline on purpose....

For ANY reason....

He says that if you happen to accidentally (IMO based on Paul's experience) pick a snake up (along with a bundle of sticks say) or drink something that happens to be poisoned (without your knowledge) it won't harm you.... Because God protects those who believe in His Son from things they themselves have no knowledge of....

Here is a question:

If handling of snakes and drinking of poison are gifts of the Spirit....

Why do those who practice such stupidity(Great gravy! I went there again!)die?

Simple, they are not active.

Mary, no matter how we phrase it gifts or God's protection the fact is that tongues is included in the same passage. Please explain to me why two of the five in the passage no longer exist? Are you seriously willing to claim that no Christian has ever died from a snakebite? You have made a few assumptions in your post. To state what Paul would or would not have done is simply an assumption.

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2010, 08:58 PM
Hi, VR, you indeed make a very valid point here. As far as I'm concerned, you proved the point rather well. But I'm still not clear on how anyone speaking in tongues, that neither they nor the hearer understands, how anyone is being edified. As per your point, I can see how the concept works, I'm just not certain the concept also applies to speaking in tongues, at least especially publically. I can see how the concept might work when done privately, but from what I remember, speaking in tongues was far from being done privately, plus I don't ever recall any interpretations taking place. Who was actually edified when practically the entire congregation was speaking/praying in tongues at the same time? Is this the way it happens in most tongue speaking churches today, or was I just in one of those extreme Charismatic churches that Tango was describing earlier?

Tongues that are spoken in the congregation without an interpretation are disorderly and should not be spoken to anyone. They should only be spoken to one's self. I agree with you in that a lot of what you see in many charismatic churches gives the appearance of absolute hysteria. That is exactly why Paul said don't do it. I'm just amazed at how many churches out there ignore this warning.


When I think back, I did visit other tongue speaking churches. It was the same pattern in those as well...practically the entire congregation speaking/praying in tongues simultaneously.

Yeah, I've been in them as well. Drives me up the wall . . .

When spoken privately, however, I believe the edification could be just the same as if the Spirit is interceding on our behalf. I don't think it's the same; I'm just stating I think it is similar.

kay-gee
Feb 22nd 2010, 08:58 PM
The reason people like myself view the cessationist opinion as illogical is for the reasons watchinginawe posted above . . .



To me, this is not a logical or accurate way to go about discovering the truth. Instead of allowing God and His word to form their beliefs, cessationists decide what they believe first and then try to force the scriptures to match it. In other words, such a belief is taking a lack of experience to go along with an insistance that all things fits worldy or natural logic and insisting that scripture match such a belief. This is why I believe such a view is just illogical. Carnal logic is not logic at all. It is only perceived logic.

And YOU never do this eh?

Please tell us your secret so the rest of us can catch up the proper way to study the Bible.

My Bible tells me what the purpose of the tongues were. Who was able to administer them. And that they would end.

Noone has been able to prove otherwise. Isn't it funny how these gifts are pretty much a monopolized by the Charismatic movement.

all the best...

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:01 PM
t was the same pattern in those as well...practically the entire congregation speaking/praying in tongues simultaneously.
Hey DivaD... here is what scritpure says about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit concerning the Body of Christ:

1 Cor 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%2012&version=NKJV;#fen-NKJV-28640b)] Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Also:

17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

Finally I will post this as well:

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%2012&version=NKJV;#fen-NKJV-28662d)]
gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

So, if everyone in a church are speaking tongues... based on scripture... someone's faking. What good would such a specific Body of Christ be if none can heal, or prophecy, or interpret all those tongues, give a word of knowledge or wisdom, display such faith that others are inspired... etc.

If I was in a church that EVERYONE spoke in tongues... I'd be out the door because this is clearly against scripture.

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:04 PM
I missed Judgment day?!?

I am going to be late to my own funeral.... Just watch and see....

Revelations clearly tells us that the Judgment for all mankind will come when Jesus returns....

If I have missed that.... I am going to be devastated....

Based on your logic there are two judgment days????

Revelations speaks of one.... And I am of the firm belief that it is the same one Isaiah speaks of....

Why?

Because the Jews are to this day hearing people of many different nationalities proclaiming Christ as the Messiah they so long for....

And the leadership of Israel still is not listening....

In fact.... One leader of Israel states (and this is totally ridiculous IMO) that the Messiah the gentiles speak of is their own Messiah.... Not the Messiah of the Jews....

Funny.... I didn't know there were two....

I actually believed that God had only ONE Son.... And that Paul was correct when he said that Jesus is the Savior of Jew and Gentile alike....

Strange that....

Mary,

Isaiah is not speaking of the judgment of mankind. He is speaking of a judgment against Israel for a specific reason, their rejection of the Messiah. He even talks about them being trampled under foot, the destruction of the temple. It is clear from Acts two that the tongues being spoken were spoken by people who did not know the language in which they spoke. The time of the prophecy is clearly the time of Christ's coming not modern time when people speaking in different languages speak to the Jews today. So the question remains, what purpose would the sign serve almost 2000 years after the prophecy that it was fulfilled?

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:07 PM
Simple, they are not active.

Mary, no matter how we phrase it gifts or God's protection the fact is that tongues is included in the same passage. Please explain to me why two of the five in the passage no longer exist? Are you seriously willing to claim that no Christian has ever died from a snakebite? You have made a few assumptions in your post. To state what Paul would or would not have done is simply an assumption.

Hey Butch, how ya doin' dude?

In scripture we have examples of all the signs specific to the Great Commission. Healing, casting out demons, speaking in new tongues. What is the example given to us in scripture concerning the poison? It's God protecting us, not us doing shots of poison or handling snakes waiting to get bit.

notuptome
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:34 PM
In scripture we have examples of all the signs specific to the Great Commission. Healing, casting out demons, speaking in new tongues. What is the example given to us in scripture concerning the poison? It's God protecting us, not us doing shots of poison or handling snakes waiting to get bit.
The great commission is to evangelize. Acts 1:8, Mat 28:16-20 Luke 24:46-48, John 17:18, 20:21, the account to which you refer is in Mark 16:15-18. The account in Mark is the only one to include the sign and wonders in the commission. This particular section is not generally received as part of the original book of Mark. A reliance on signs and wonders as part of the great commission is not something that one can be dogmatic about. As romantic as the notion may be it is not supported by the scripture. The great commission is to evangelize. Tell to all the world if they do not receive Christ as atonement for their sins they will perish in their sins for all eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

VerticalReality
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:38 PM
Please tell us your secret so the rest of us can catch up the proper way to study the Bible.

No secret, but one thing that helped me is that I didn't have a ton of religious indoctrination before I truly came to the Lord. I grew up in a family that never went to church and didn't discuss much of anything having to do with the Lord. So, the Lord didn't have to clear my head of all the defiled religious junk that would have been put in there for years prior by all the lifeless religion that a good portion of America calls Christianity.

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:39 PM
Hey Butch, how ya doin' dude?

In scripture we have examples of all the signs specific to the Great Commission. Healing, casting out demons, speaking in new tongues. What is the example given to us in scripture concerning the poison? It's God protecting us, not us doing shots of poison or handling snakes waiting to get bit.

Hi Slug1,

Is it your contention then that none of those Christians who handle snakes, get bitten and suffer are Christians?

Is it your contention that a Christian has never died from posion.?

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:48 PM
Hey Butch, how ya doin' dude?

In scripture we have examples of all the signs specific to the Great Commission. Healing, casting out demons, speaking in new tongues. What is the example given to us in scripture concerning the poison? It's God protecting us, not us doing shots of poison or handling snakes waiting to get bit.

Hi Slug1,

You made me curios about that verse so I went and checked in the Greek and found that the word Believe is a "participle. aorist. active. dative. plural. masculine. Basically it means after they believe. So we could read this verse to say that these signs will follow them after they believe. So the question still stands, if these signs are still active where are the volenteers?

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:48 PM
Hi Slug1,

Is it your contention then that none of those Christians who handle snakes, get bitten and suffer are Christians?

Is it your contention that a Christian has never died from posion.?The ones who handle snakes? Decieved and thus many are dead or injured.

As I said, what is the example in scripture... you're the very one who pointed this out to me a couple months back as Paul got bit when reaching into that wood pile.

I hope I make sense... I need to get my dictionary for contention :lol:

You better believe that Christians are bit if they do that. Also, before you pull some stats out how some are unhurt... we are warned in the Bible of signs of false prophets and IMO this is a prime example.

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:51 PM
Hi Slug1,

You made me curios about that verse so I went and checked in the Greek and found that the word Believe is a "participle. aorist. active. dative. plural. masculine. Basically it means after they believe. So we could read this verse to say that these signs will follow them after they believe. So the question still stands, if these signs are still active where are the volenteers?Again, the example is one of protection we read, not actively playing with or drinking poison. Paul didn't know the snake was there until after it bit him.

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:53 PM
Again, the example is one of protection we read, not actively playing with or drinking poison. Paul didn't know the snake was there until after it bit him.

That doesn't mean he didn't pick up another. The point is if handling snakes without harm was a sign to follow believers how come we don't see it. Lot's of Christians go into the woods hiking and get betten.

Slug1
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:54 PM
The great commission is to evangelize. Acts 1:8, Mat 28:16-20 Luke 24:46-48, John 17:18, 20:21, the account to which you refer is in Mark 16:15-18. The account in Mark is the only one to include the sign and wonders in the commission. This particular section is not generally received as part of the original book of Mark. A reliance on signs and wonders as part of the great commission is not something that one can be dogmatic about. As romantic as the notion may be it is not supported by the scripture. The great commission is to evangelize. Tell to all the world if they do not receive Christ as atonement for their sins they will perish in their sins for all eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I agree with ya Roger... why can't Evangelizing include all that we read? It's to easy to Evangelize under one's own abliity... sure, tons are led to Christ but are we to justify never healing, casting out demos or speaking in tongues? To many do this and we wonder why the church is without the Power of God.

Butch5
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:57 PM
The ones who handle snakes? Decieved and thus many are dead or injured.

As I said, what is the example in scripture... you're the very one who pointed this out to me a couple months back as Paul got bit when reaching into that wood pile.

I hope I make sense... I need to get my dictionary for contention :lol:

You better believe that Christians are bit if they do that. Also, before you pull some stats out how some are unhurt... we are warned in the Bible of signs of false prophets and IMO this is a prime example.

Am I understanding you correctly? Christians who handle snakes, are bitten and suffer ill effects are deceived by an evil Spirit, but those who say they speak in tongues are being lead by the Holy Spirit?

newinchrist4now
Feb 22nd 2010, 09:59 PM
Am I understanding you correctly? Christians who handle snakes, are bitten and suffer ill effects are deceived by an evil Spirit, but those who say they speak in tongues are being lead by the Holy Spirit?

That's a pat reply that's given, I heard it many times. If your bitten, drink poison, etc and get sick you don't have the HS. I was told something similar by pentecostal/charismatic folk because I was still in a wheelchair after they prayed for me, the beginning of my track out of that movement

Bladers
Feb 22nd 2010, 10:09 PM
why can't Evangelizing include all that we read? It's to easy to Evangelize under one's own abliity... sure, tons are led to Christ but are we to justify never healing, casting out demos or speaking in tongues? To many do this and we wonder why the church is without the Power of God.

Right now, the church is like going to an auto repair shop and you take your broken car down to be fixed. And the repair man tells you, "I don't know what your problem is, Here's the manual, all you need is the manual."

and you ask, "Where are your tools and Why can't you fix it?" and the Guy says: "No, we don't have any tools here, we don't need tools, we have the manual now."

Cloud without rain
Rainbow with no colors
Form without power
Message without confirmation
Who would go to that auto-repair shop?

goykodesh
Feb 22nd 2010, 10:34 PM
This is exactly the point I was making regarding the cessationist experience.

In other words . . .

"This is my experience; therefore, if God wanted me to believe something different He would take care of it."

The problem is that God has already revealed what He can and will do in His word, and it is now our responsibility to believe . . . not wait until God disproves our unbelief.

I always am wary of creating doctrine from emotional experiences. My emotional response to God is very personal and I treasure them, but that is not what sustains my faith.

notuptome
Feb 23rd 2010, 12:16 AM
I agree with ya Roger... why can't Evangelizing include all that we read? It's to easy to Evangelize under one's own abliity... sure, tons are led to Christ but are we to justify never healing, casting out demos or speaking in tongues? To many do this and we wonder why the church is without the Power of God.
I think you have just touched upon the great problem with the church today. The church is evangelizing in her own strength and not according to the method prescribed by God. The tons being led to Christ are only as genuine as the message they are receiveing. Today the church thinks that evangelizing is getting a good band and cranking up the tunes to get 'em to Jesus. That is not how God has said it would be done. You cannot win souls to Christ apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must bring conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment or soul cannot be drawn to Christ. Man cannot come to Christ of his/her own volition. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save souls. Preaching from the pulpit for sure but more than that is the personal witnessing of saints of God with a burden sent from heaven for the lost. Mans way of evangelizing in his strength is to make church entertainment and not enlightenment. Man cannot enlighten only the Holy Spirit of God can do that. The saint is only the vessel it is the Holy Spirit that does the work. The Holy Spirit works through saints of God who are broken for the lost. The Holy Spirit genuinely moves in churches where the word of God is declared faithfully that the lost might be saved and the saints of God built up in the holy faith to serve Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Bladers
Feb 23rd 2010, 01:34 AM
You cannot win souls to Christ apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must bring conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment or soul cannot be drawn to Christ. Man cannot come to Christ of his/her own volition. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save souls. Preaching from the pulpit for sure but more than that is the personal witnessing of saints of God with a burden sent from heaven for the lost. Mans way of evangelizing in his strength is to make church entertainment and not enlightenment. Man cannot enlighten only the Holy Spirit of God can do that. The saint is only the vessel it is the Holy Spirit that does the work. The Holy Spirit works through saints of God who are broken for the lost. The Holy Spirit genuinely moves in churches where the word of God is declared faithfully that the lost might be saved and the saints of God built up in the holy faith to serve Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hey, Serious question:
How does the Holy Spirit work in a Church when the church has banned him from working?
The Gifts of the Spirit is how the Holy Spirit manifests himself. Its not a gift in the sense of a GIFTBOX or a KEY, or a BADGE. But its the Holy Spirit literally manifesting himself in healing, knowledge, discernment, casting out devils, prophecy, conviction..

Its only a gift as in the sense that its given for free: (But the manifestation of the Spirit is given)

So if the Holy Spirit can't testify, can't talk, can't touch, can't convict, can't oppose, can't deliver, can't move, can't influence...
So i re-address the Question to you again, How can the Holy Spirit move when he is banned by Doctrine of men?

1 Thessalonians 5:19-20; "Quench not the Spirit, Despise not prophesyings."

Steven3
Feb 23rd 2010, 01:51 AM
Hi Bladers :)
Hey, Serious question:
How does the Holy Spirit work in a Church when the church has banned him from working?As Paul says, leave off the showy "gifts" (gifts of the Holy Spirit aren't the Holy Spirit, they are only "gifts of", which is why there's the "of") and concentrate on the fruits of the Spirit, love patience, mercy, these are the things where the Holy Spirit truly works.

Most of the Corinthians probably didn't have any real HS gifts anyway, they only thought they did. So Paul isn't "banning" real gifts of the Spirit he's just trying to reign in Corinth-tongues, setting out six rules in 1Co14:27-39 that if the Corinthians did as Paul said would mean real Jerusalem-tongues and other genuine gifts-of would still be okay.

Modern Christians have got to get their heads round the fact that the early section of 1Co14 is showing us what not to do, Corinth is an example to be avoided, not imitated.
S.

Bladers
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:03 AM
Hi Bladers :)As Paul says, leave off the showy "gifts" (gifts of the Holy Spirit aren't the Holy Spirit, they are only "gifts of", which is why there's the "of") and concentrate on the fruits of the Spirit, love patience, mercy, these are the things where the Holy Spirit truly works.

Does the Holy Spirit have power or is HE POWER and the source of it?
does He have Knowledge or is he Knowledge?
does he have Healing power, or is HE HEALING POWER?
God told Moses, "I AM" not "I HAVE"
and we can go on and on...

He is a person, yes. But he doesn't possess things. He manifests himself in these things.
He manifests as prophecy and gives someone revelation. Thats why his called the Spirit of Prophecy
Second, How can you lift the fruits of the Spirit and deny the Gifts of the Spirit? Its seems mind-blowing...

Butch5
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:17 AM
That's a pat reply that's given, I heard it many times. If your bitten, drink poison, etc and get sick you don't have the HS. I was told something similar by pentecostal/charismatic folk because I was still in a wheelchair after they prayed for me, the beginning of my track out of that movement

Yea, it does seem rather odd that only the subjective signs have continued.

kay-gee
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:29 AM
Well Sister, as the Lord begins to use your testimony for His purposes... you'll know it because it will begin to be attacked by other Christians who don't operate in the Spirit.

Do you think that I am attacking you?


all the best...

Slug1
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:35 AM
Do you think that I am attacking you?


all the best...The word you (me) was a bad choice. Attack the testimony God gives me as He works in my life and works through me... sure.

Steven3
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:36 AM
Does the Holy Spirit have power or is HE POWER and the source of it?
does He have Knowledge or is he Knowledge?
does he have Healing power, or is HE HEALING POWER?
God told Moses, "I AM" not "I HAVE"
and we can go on and on...

He is a person, yes. But he doesn't possess things. He manifests himself in these things.
He manifests as prophecy and gives someone revelation. Thats why his called the Spirit of Prophecy
Second, How can you lift the fruits of the Spirit and deny the Gifts of the Spirit? Its seems mind-blowing...

Hi Bladers
Sorry but the meaning of "of" is "of". The A of B is not B it is A. The gifts of the Spirit in Pentecost were not the Spirit. The disciples had already received the Holy Ghost 47 days earlier in John 20:22. Pentecost was simply about remaining in Jerusalem to be clothed with "power" (dynamis) from on high.


How can you lift the fruits of the Spirit and deny the Gifts of the Spirit? Its seems mind-blowing...Well I'm sure that the Corinthians found Paul's instructions unpleasant too. Being told to reign in, rope down your "gifts" like 1Co14:26-39 isn't pleasant. And the much harder higher level Paul sets for greater gifts (i.e. fruits), love and so on in 1Co13 isn't easy either.

I doubt that all the Corinthians listened to Paul any more than everyone listens today. But Paul says in 1Co14:39 that if someone considers he has the HS gifts but doesn't do as Paul says in 1Co14:26-38 then that person is to be sidelined. Which indicates that Paul was expecting that some members in Corinth would not be willing to restore order into their use of the gifts:

Orderly Worship

26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But all things should be done decently and in order..
Sorry, but I didn't write those verses, Paul did. :)
S

Slug1
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:39 AM
Am I understanding you correctly? Christians who handle snakes, are bitten and suffer ill effects are deceived by an evil Spirit, but those who say they speak in tongues are being lead by the Holy Spirit?IMO, not if an ENTIRE church is speaking in tongues... scritpure states that God divies up the Gifts.... so if ALL, EVERY SINGLE person in a church is speaking in tongues and even telling you that until you do, you're not filled with the Holy Spirit...RUN because God will not allow this and based on scripture, is not His will.

Slug1
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:42 AM
That doesn't mean he didn't pick up another. The point is if handling snakes without harm was a sign to follow believers how come we don't see it. Lot's of Christians go into the woods hiking and get betten.

Nor do they heal any bears :P

MaryFreeman
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:45 AM
Simple, they are not active.

Mary, no matter how we phrase it gifts or God's protection the fact is that tongues is included in the same passage. Please explain to me why two of the five in the passage no longer exist? Are you seriously willing to claim that no Christian has ever died from a snakebite? You have made a few assumptions in your post. To state what Paul would or would not have done is simply an assumption.I am going to try my best to answer this....

But please forgive me.... I am not sure I fully understand the question....

Where is it in the bible that tongues is listed alongside such stupidity (Wow.... I keep going there!) as handling snakes (deliberately) or drinking poison (again deliberately)?

I have no idea whether or not a christian who was bitten by a snake has died from it (sadly.... Or maybe not so sadly [perhaps it is a good thing lol].... I am not omnipotent)....

But I do know beyond doubt that 9 times out of 10 the crazy nut who deliberately played with a deadly venomous snake has died because it did what God Himself programmed it to do....

What I am trying to tell you....

Is that by listing such stupidity (somebody stop me!) as playing with snakes and deliberately injesting poisonous substances as gifts of the Holy Spirit....

Not only was your statement completely unbiblical.... It can also be classified as a derailment of this thread....

That being said.... Paul lists the gifts of the Spirit as these:

Knowledge
Discernment of spirits
Prophesy
Tongues
Healing by laying on of hands

By my count that is five....

All of which are still alive and well....

I know this because I have personal experience with two....

Prophesy....
Knowledge....

I do speak in tongues.... But I do so alone....

Why?

Like Paul.... I would much rather speak five words in American than a thousand in the tongue of angels....

You are a very intellegent person....

Which is why I feel no need to tell you why I would much rather....

MaryFreeman
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:53 AM
Uh.... by the way lol.... The assumption that Paul would not have messed with a venomous viper if he knew it was there is based on the fact that Paul was an educated man.... An intellegent man with the common sense to understand that speaking in tongues edifies no one unless it can be interpreted....

Such a man couldn't have lacked the same common sense regarding what he should do when face to face with something everyone knows will indeed kill you....

And I do not feel as if I am wrong in assuming that.... Because it is based on knowledge of the man....

Steven3
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:59 AM
Hi Mary :)
Where is it in the bible that tongues is listed alongside such stupidity (Wow.... I keep going there!) as handling snakes (deliberately) or drinking poison (again deliberately)?Slug1's verse is from 2 of the 5 "signs following" in Mark 16:17-18.

Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will (1) cast out demons; they will (2) speak in new tongues; 18 they will (3) pick up serpents with their hands; and if they (4) drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will (5) lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Jesus seems to be referring only to the apostles.
s.

divaD
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:16 AM
Hi Mary :)Slug1's verse is from 2 of the 5 "signs following" in Mark 16:17-18.

Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will (1) cast out demons; they will (2) speak in new tongues; 18 they will (3) pick up serpents with their hands; and if they (4) drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will (5) lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Jesus seems to be referring only to the apostles.
s.


Why only the apostles? What about this verse?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Are the apostle the only ones that believed?

divaD
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:17 AM
I am going to try my best to answer this....

But please forgive me.... I am not sure I fully understand the question....

Where is it in the bible that tongues is listed alongside such stupidity (Wow.... I keep going there!) as handling snakes (deliberately) or drinking poison (again deliberately)?

I have no idea whether or not a christian who was bitten by a snake has died from it (sadly.... Or maybe not so sadly [perhaps it is a good thing lol].... I am not omnipotent)....

But I do know beyond doubt that 9 times out of 10 the crazy nut who deliberately played with a deadly venomous snake has died because it did what God Himself programmed it to do....

What I am trying to tell you....

Is that by listing such stupidity (somebody stop me!) as playing with snakes and deliberately injesting poisonous substances as gifts of the Holy Spirit....

Not only was your statement completely unbiblical.... It can also be classified as a derailment of this thread....

That being said.... Paul lists the gifts of the Spirit as these:

Knowledge
Discernment of spirits
Prophesy
Tongues
Healing by laying on of hands

By my count that is five....

All of which are still alive and well....

I know this because I have personal experience with two....

Prophesy....
Knowledge....

I do speak in tongues.... But I do so alone....

Why?

Like Paul.... I would much rather speak five words in American than a thousand in the tongue of angels....

You are a very intellegent person....

Which is why I feel no need to tell you why I would much rather....


Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Which signs? In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. These signs??

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. But not these signs tho??

MaryFreeman
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:19 AM
That's a pat reply that's given, I heard it many times. If your bitten, drink poison, etc and get sick you don't have the HS. I was told something similar by pentecostal/charismatic folk because I was still in a wheelchair after they prayed for me, the beginning of my track out of that movement

Hey there goofy guy!

I left the charismatic movement because of the "Toronto blessing".... Which to this day I refuse to believe was a blessing....

Remember when people were barking.... braying.... neighing.... acting and sounding like animals?

I even witnessed a woman writhing as if "caught in passions grip"....

Which I didn't find edifying....

In fact.... I found it lewd and lascivious....

Your statement concerning the handling of snakes and the drinking of poison fits in perfectly....

God's word says to be "gentle as a dove, but cunning as a serpent"....

IMO that means "USE YOUR BRAIN!"

Paul was aflicted with a "thorn" in his side.... Something that was wrong with his physical body....

And he is the dead last human being on the face of this earth I would ever accuse of a lack of faith....

You do not lack faith brother....

You simply must live with this thorn in your side....

Because the Lord is enough....

Steven3
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:28 AM
Are the apostle the only ones that believed?No, and from a literal reading we'd expect Acts to be chock full of those miracles Jesus predicts. But it isn't, and even in Acts primarily the apostles. And then after Acts a quick decline in powers in the epistles and then by the 2nd Century nothing. The gifts were failing even late in Paul's life --- as when he failed to heal Trophimus and had to leave his companion behind at Miletus.

It isn't what Mark 16 would lead us to expect, but the decline in miraculous activity is evident even in the NT.

There's another possibility --- that Jesus was not actually prophesying continuous gift activity at all, and that this is a figurative statement that has something to do with the sudden and short explosion in miracle activity in Acts, but as much to do with OT references to serpents, poison, tongues, healing. Like many of Jesus' statements Mark 16:17-18 is a patchwork quilt of allusions to the OT prophets. It's probably more that he wanted the initial work of the apostles to further his own fulfillment of those prophecies.

Either way, it doesn't happen now. If it did we wouldn't be discussing it. :)
God bless
S

MaryFreeman
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:59 AM
Hi Mary :)Slug1's verse is from 2 of the 5 "signs following" in Mark 16:17-18.

Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will (1) cast out demons; they will (2) speak in new tongues; 18 they will (3) pick up serpents with their hands; and if they (4) drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will (5) lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Jesus seems to be referring only to the apostles.
s.
Hello Steven!

What seems to be happening is that people are confusing the signs that follow those who believe with the gifts specifically given to the church....

Three of the signs you have listed are done with the deliberate participation of the believer involved....

Two are signs of God's protection....

Notice the gifts Paul lists? How many of the signs Jesus lists are also in Paul's?

Two....

Speaking in tongues....

Healing by laying on of hands....

I have had demons cast out of me....

But the casting out of demons is not in Paul's list of gifts given the church....

Nor is such stupidity as deliberately playing with a deadly snake.... Or deliberately injesting poisonous substances....

IMO doing such things is not proving your belief in God....

It is tantamount to testing Him....

Which we are not permitted to do....

How do I know that Jesus did not mean deliberately?

Because the only recorded instance of a person being bitten by a snake and not being harmed was when Paul was rummaging through a pile of sticks and pulled his hand out only to find a viper clinging to his hand by it's fangs....

What did Paul do? He believed Jesus' words.... That he would not be harmed.... And so he shook the viper into the fire (thats just punishment for daring to strike him I guess lol) and went about his business.... The unbelievers who were with him watched and waited for him to fall dead....

And what did they say when he did not?

"They changed their minds and said that he was a god."

LOL!!!

But he wasn't a god....

At any rate.... Jesus was listing signs of belief.... Not things people should do to prove to him or anyone else that they believe....

Jesus said you will know the tree by the fruit it bears....

Not by the snake it has an annoying habit of playing with....

-SEEKING-
Feb 23rd 2010, 04:08 AM
MOD NOTE:

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but this thread has been closed as per request. Thank you all who participated.