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Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 12:46 PM
Who are those called by God?

To whom is the gospel given?

Rom 8:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Thess 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 7:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Feb 23rd 2010, 01:01 PM
Who are those called by God?

To whom is the gospel given?

Rom 8:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Thess 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 7:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Firstfruits

Anyone your can reach.


Matthew 22:9 ( KJV )
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 01:31 PM
Anyone your can reach.


Matthew 22:9 ( KJV )
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Thanks Butch5,

Knowing that we are all called by the gospel, are we therefore also all predestinated?

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Firstfruits

David Taylor
Feb 23rd 2010, 01:49 PM
I Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

thedee
Feb 23rd 2010, 01:53 PM
Who are those called by God?

To whom is the gospel given?

Rom 8:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Thess 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 7:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Firstfruits

I believe at some point and time everyone is drawn to the gospel. Then they choose whether to accept the free gift or deny it.
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. - John 12:32

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. - Romans 8:29

When studying predestination one must also look at foreknowledge. God knows what you are going to do and he may use you for a specific purpose as was in the case of Pharaoh. Pharaoh at first hardened his own heart...
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. - Romans 9:17

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. - 1 Peter 1:2

The gospel is available to everyone but it only benefits those who believe and accept the free gift
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 01:55 PM
I Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world


Thanks David,

So as in the following scripture we are to comform to Jesus?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Feb 23rd 2010, 01:55 PM
Thanks Butch5,

Knowing that we are all called by the gospel, are we therefore also all predestinated?

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Firstfruits

No, the only ones who are predestined are those who choose to believe. God has predetermined that all who love Him (Believe) will be conformed to the image of His Son.

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:02 PM
No, the only ones who are predestined are those who choose to believe. God has predetermined that all who love Him (Believe) will be conformed to the image of His Son.

Is not the predestination to be comformed to Jesus according to what is written?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We are all called.

Firstfruits

thedee
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:04 PM
Is not the predestination to be comformed to Jesus according to what is written?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Firstfruits

Look at my first post #5.... The key is "foreknow"..... To know before hand.

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:10 PM
Look at my first post #5.... The key is "foreknow"..... To know before hand.

Who does God not know? Has he not given us all the chance to repent according to the gospel?

Firstfruits

thedee
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:14 PM
Who does God not know? Has he not given us all the chance to repent according to the gospel?

Firstfruits

He knows everyone heart and he knows what they are going to do. He does not need to predestinate something in order to know it. And like I said in post #5 is that I believe that at some point everyone is drawn.... John 12:32... it is then we must accept or reject the free gift.

Butch5
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:14 PM
Is not the predestination to be comformed to Jesus according to what is written?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We are all called.

Firstfruits

Hi FF,

Yes, all are called, however, in the verse you quoted Paul is not speaking of all, he is speaking specifically about those who love God (verse 28). All are called to believe in Christ. Those who believe are called to be conformed to the image of His Son. The Greek word here is "Kaleo" and is also translated "invite". It is like the parable of the wedding supper, all are called (invited) to the wedding supper, those who come are then called (invited) to partake (be confromed to the image of His Son) of the wedding supper. Does that makes snes?

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:20 PM
He knows everyone heart and he knows what they are going to do. He does not need to predestinate something in order to know it. And like I said in post #5 is that I believe that at some point everyone is drawn.... John 12:32... it is then we must accept or reject the free gift.

We are all called by the gospel, and by that gospel we are to conform to Jesus.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Thess 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are all called by the gospel.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:22 PM
Hi FF,

Yes, all are called, however, in the verse you quoted Paul is not speaking of all, he is speaking specifically about those who love God (verse 28). All are called to believe in Christ. Those who believe are called to be conformed to the image of His Son. The Greek word here is "Kaleo" and is also translated "invite". It is like the parable of the wedding supper, all are called (invited) to the wedding supper, those who come are then called (invited) to partake (be confromed to the image of His Son) of the wedding supper. Does that makes snes?

We are all called by the gospel.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:25 PM
Although many are called not all will obey the gospel.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Firstfruits

thedee
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:29 PM
We are all called by the gospel, and by that gospel we are to conform to Jesus.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Thess 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are all called by the gospel.

Firstfruits

So what is the point.... Like I said, the gospel is available to everyone.

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:51 PM
So what is the point.... Like I said, the gospel is available to everyone.

The predestination is regarding how we should be before God.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This stands for all.

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 23rd 2010, 02:52 PM
No, the only ones who are predestined are those who choose to believe. God has predetermined that all who love Him (Believe) will be conformed to the image of His Son.


We choose God?.. :confused:confused those who 'choose' to believe...

Jesus said.. you didn't choose me... But I've chosen you...

you leave 'choosing' in the hands of man Butch, God's Will and Foreknowledge is dependant on man, whether he/she chooses....... but the Scripture tells us its HE that does the choosing....


Many are Called... but few are Chosen.. elected...

Are all that are called .. 'chosen'???? NO... 'few' are 'chosen' or elected. according to the Scriptures

God 'knows' the beginning from the End for every living soul EVER created...

and He 'knows' His Own... He 'knows' His Elect and those HE HAS CHOSEN....

the 'call' has gone out thru Preaching... but all that hear and are called..
are NOT CHOSEN...


These Called and Chosen , His Elect.. are Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son....

everybody that is 'called'... is not Chosen or Elected...

and its God who Does the Choosing or Electing...

He's Known these since the Foundation of the World..

thedee
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:02 PM
The predestination is regarding how we should be before God.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This stands for all.

Firstfruits

The sad thing is that many people believe that God predestinated some to heaven and the rest to hell. I do not find that in scripture.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:13 PM
The sad thing is that many people believe that God predestinated some to heaven and the rest to hell. I do not find that in scripture.

Hi thedee,

Question. What happens to a person who lives and never hears the gospel all through life and then dies. Does he enter heaven or is he condemned to hell?

I have a few follow on questions, but wait to see your thoughts here

Thanks in advance

thedee
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:25 PM
Hi thedee,

Question. What happens to a person who lives and never hears the gospel all through life and then dies. Does he enter heaven or is he condemned to hell?

I have a few follow on questions, but wait to see your thoughts here

Thanks in advance

Romans 1:18-32 states that every person knows from the universe around him that a God of infinite power is man's Creator, and yet the vast majority of people have rejected that revelation and indulged in idol worship and gross immorality and "are wthout excuse." Romans 2:14,15 adds that every person knows in his sonscience that he has vilated God's laws and is under God's judgement. All those who, under conviction of conscience by the Holy Spirit, cry out to God in repentance for His salvation will, in one way or another, be given the gospel.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:41 PM
Romans 1:18-32 states that every person knows from the universe around him that a God of infinite power is man's Creator, and yet the vast majority of people have rejected that revelation and indulged in idol worship and gross immorality and "are wthout excuse." Romans 2:14,15 adds that every person knows in his sonscience that he has vilated God's laws and is under God's judgement. All those who, under conviction of conscience by the Holy Spirit, cry out to God in repentance for His salvation will, in one way or another, be given the gospel.

So heaven or hell?

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:41 PM
The sad thing is that many people believe that God predestinated some to heaven and the rest to hell. I do not find that in scripture.

Agreed! There would be no need to call us to do that which is according to the gospel if the out come is already sealed regarding heaven and the lake of fire.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 03:43 PM
Hi thedee,

Question. What happens to a person who lives and never hears the gospel all through life and then dies. Does he enter heaven or is he condemned to hell?

I have a few follow on questions, but wait to see your thoughts here

Thanks in advance

Hope this helps!

2 Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Firstfruits

goykodesh
Feb 23rd 2010, 05:04 PM
The sad thing is that many people believe that God predestinated some to heaven and the rest to hell. I do not find that in scripture.

This doctrine is most destructive, and leads me to ask this question - Who wants most to separate God's children from God? What would be his tactics? This doctrine fits the adversary's intent like a glove.

It's time to close our ears to satan's lies.

John146
Feb 23rd 2010, 05:04 PM
Who are those called by God?

To whom is the gospel given?All people. But only those who respond with repentance and faith are chosen. That's why Jesus said "many are called, but few are chosen". Not all who are called are Christians.

goykodesh
Feb 23rd 2010, 05:05 PM
Hi thedee,

Question. What happens to a person who lives and never hears the gospel all through life and then dies. Does he enter heaven or is he condemned to hell?

I have a few follow on questions, but wait to see your thoughts here

Thanks in advance

He/she is judged according to the revelation they have been given.

John146
Feb 23rd 2010, 05:07 PM
We choose God?.. :confused:confused those who 'choose' to believe...

Jesus said.. you didn't choose me... But I've chosen you...There you go taking that scripture out of context again. That verse is speaking in terms of choosing them to be His closest disciples. Even Judas Iscariot was chosen in that sense.

John 6
70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

thedee
Feb 23rd 2010, 05:19 PM
So heaven or hell?

Well if you read Romans 1:20,21 and then read 2 Thessalonians 1:8 it should give you an answer.

I am not the one who determines on who goes to hell or heaven. Only God knows the heart of man.

David Taylor
Feb 23rd 2010, 05:32 PM
Thanks David,

So as in the following scripture we are to comform to Jesus?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Firstfruits

Jesus describes it best here and here:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish; I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 10:27, 15:5

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 23rd 2010, 05:53 PM
Well if you read Romans 1:20,21 and then read 2 Thessalonians 1:8 it should give you an answer.

I am not the one who determines on who goes to hell or heaven. Only God knows the heart of man.

Not in that John Smith goes and Bill Jones does not, but within the word we surely know the way of salvation, don't we? So if a man -- in never hearing the gospel, and I'm not talking man's general accountability to know that there is God as his creator, I'm speaking to salvation... Why would God create a man to live a life on earth and yet he would never hear about his need for Jesus? So.... based on

Romans 10:12-17
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


...he never hears, thus he never believes, thus how will he be saved?

Again, politely asking, is the person who never hears the gospel, is [s]he destined for heaven or hell?

The only right answer is... it has to be hell... For all men start as sinners, so why do some have the opportunity to hear the gospel, and others do not? Why do some who do hear the gospel, still refuse to believe, or maybe only believe for a season?


Your earlier comment was regarding that you don't see God destining some men to hell, when I say that the bible says that all men are destined to hell already... so why do some have the 'choice' to 'respond' to the gospel, and others have no chioce to respond, one way or another for they never heard?

Would they not die in their sins then and thus be destrined for hell?

thedee
Feb 23rd 2010, 06:44 PM
Not in that John Smith goes and Bill Jones does not, but within the word we surely know the way of salvation, don't we? So if a man -- in never hearing the gospel, and I'm not talking man's general accountability to know that there is God as his creator, I'm speaking to salvation... Why would God create a man to live a life on earth and yet he would never hear about his need for Jesus?

Let me ask you this. Do you yourself have children? If so, why would you have children if there was a chance that one of them may go to hell? Why not just not have any kids so that you don't take a chance of one of them going to hell?

I myself have children and pray always that they may be saved. They are exposed to the gospel and hopefully when they come to age they will accept it.

Let say I have 2 kids and lets say I know one will be saved and one will not be saved... Would it be best I have no children?

Butch5
Feb 23rd 2010, 06:57 PM
We are all called by the gospel.

Firstfruits

Yes we are all called by the Gospel. I may have missed something.

Butch5
Feb 23rd 2010, 07:14 PM
theBelovedDisciple---We choose God?.. :confused:confused those who 'choose' to believe...

Jesus said.. you didn't choose me... But I've chosen you...

Yes, and when we look at the in context we find that Jesus said that to the disciples, Peter, Matthew, John etc. It was not a blanket statement it was made to specific individuals. They wee also chosen for a purpose.

John 15:16 ( KJV )
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Context my friend, Jesus didn't say anything about I have chosen you for heaven and the rest for hell. There is not mention of eternity in His choice, it was that they bear much fruit.


you leave 'choosing' in the hands of man Butch, God's Will and Foreknowledge is dependant on man, whether he/she chooses....... but the Scripture tells us its HE that does the choosing....

God will is dependant on man only in as much as He allows it to be. Chooses the things He desires to choose and gives man the decisions that He wants man to choose.



Many are Called... but few are Chosen.. elected...

correct


Are all that are called .. 'chosen'???? NO... 'few' are 'chosen' or elected. according to the Scriptures

No, not all that are called are chosen.


God 'knows' the beginning from the End for every living soul EVER created...

and He 'knows' His Own... He 'knows' His Elect and those HE HAS CHOSEN....

Yes, He has already let us know who are His and whom He has chosen,


John 6:40 ( KJV )
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

See, He is clear everyone who believes in him may have everlasting life.


the 'call' has gone out thru Preaching... but all that hear and are called..
are NOT CHOSEN...

Correct.


These Called and Chosen , His Elect.. are Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son....

Correct.


everybody that is 'called'... is not Chosen or Elected...

Correct.


and its God who Does the Choosing or Electing...

Correct, He already has chosen,

John 6:40 ( KJV )
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


He's Known these since the Foundation of the World..

He knows everyone from the foundation of the world

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 07:56 PM
All people. But only those who respond with repentance and faith are chosen. That's why Jesus said "many are called, but few are chosen". Not all who are called are Christians.

Thanks Eric,

Agreed!!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 08:03 PM
Jesus describes it best here and here:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish; I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 10:27, 15:5


Thanks David,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 23rd 2010, 08:10 PM
Yes we are all called by the Gospel. I may have missed something.

The gospel of our salvation speaks of Jesus being our salvation, it is Jesus that has been promised from the begining and that through Jesus we would be saved and reconciled to God. That is the predestination.

Firstfruits

John146
Feb 23rd 2010, 10:49 PM
Not in that John Smith goes and Bill Jones does not, but within the word we surely know the way of salvation, don't we? So if a man -- in never hearing the gospel, and I'm not talking man's general accountability to know that there is God as his creator, I'm speaking to salvation... Why would God create a man to live a life on earth and yet he would never hear about his need for Jesus? So.... based on

Romans 10:12-17
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


...he never hears, thus he never believes, thus how will he be saved?Why did you stop at verse 17?

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Looks to me like the whole world has heard.

RogerW
Feb 23rd 2010, 11:17 PM
Why did you stop at verse 17?

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Looks to me like the whole world has heard.

Why did you stop at vs 18? Paul tells us Israel knew...they had heard, but they remained disobedient...why? Yet Paul tells us though they knew and remained stubborn and disobedient to those who "sought me not"..."I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." If that is not a picture of God's Sovereign good pleasure to save whosoever He wills, I don't know what is.

Ro*10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Ro*10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Ro*10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Many Blessings,
rW

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 23rd 2010, 11:19 PM
Why did you stop at verse 17?

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Looks to me like the whole world has heard.

Sorta surprised to read this... So by this verse, you are declaring that the whole world has heard the gospel? :hmm:

Butch5
Feb 23rd 2010, 11:30 PM
The gospel of our salvation speaks of Jesus being our salvation, it is Jesus that has been promised from the begining and that through Jesus we would be saved and reconciled to God. That is the predestination.

Firstfruits

In a round about way. God predetermined that whoever believes in Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ.

Redeemed by Grace
Feb 23rd 2010, 11:43 PM
Let me ask you this. Do you yourself have children? If so, why would you have children if there was a chance that one of them may go to hell? Why not just not have any kids so that you don't take a chance of one of them going to hell?

Yes I have two wonderful kids, thanks for asking, for both are adults now and both are following the Lord... But I didn't 'choose' to have kids, for God blessed me with kids, and I have stories to confirm both kids are from the Lord's doing, but that's a sidebar from the point. The point I see you claiming is that there cannot be those who will never be given the choice to believe and thus either accept or reject salvation.



I myself have children and pray always that they may be saved.
And I will pray for your children's salvation too, for you rightly state that we are to ask God to give salvation to those we love and pray for. We pray that God would intervene within their heart, and that God would give them eyes to see and ears to hear...



They are exposed to the gospel and hopefully when they come to age they will accept it.

So you are just praying for exposure then and nothing else? If your loved one had cancer and is dying, would you just pray that the doctor is exposed to the right medical books or that God would use him to heal them? So then why just pray that they just get exposure to the gospel and not also for God to change their heart to believe?



Let say I have 2 kids and lets say I know one will be saved and one will not be saved... Would it be best I have no children?

Well again, I'd pray believing that God will call both into the faith, and have hope that doesn't fail. But I'd also enjoy my kids for who they are. But again the question still remains... If a man lives yet he never hears the gospel, when he dies, will he be in heaven or hell?


Without Christ, he dies in his sin to hell, so why didn't he get the chance and yet you and I did?

The point again, all men are sinful and all men are destined to die in their sins... yet by God's grace some hear the gospel, respond and are saved? So then those who didn't hear, maybe weren't given the chance to hear, maybe lived too far away, maybe didn't know the right people.... were they unlucky or [pre]destined?

Firstfruits
Feb 24th 2010, 01:53 PM
In a round about way. God predetermined that whoever believes in Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ.

Yes, according to that which is written.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We must be conformed to Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Feb 24th 2010, 04:31 PM
Sorta surprised to read this... So by this verse, you are declaring that the whole world has heard the gospel? :hmm:Is that not what Paul said? Did he mean something besides "all the earth" and "the ends of the world" in that verse? Was he saying anything different than what he said here:

Col 1
5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Romans 16
25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

John146
Feb 24th 2010, 04:50 PM
Why did you stop at vs 18?Because what follows that verse does not relate to the point I was making, which is that the gospel has been preached to the whole world.


Paul tells us Israel knew...they had heard, but they remained disobedient...why? Yet Paul tells us though they knew and remained stubborn and disobedient to those who "sought me not"..."I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." If that is not a picture of God's Sovereign good pleasure to save whosoever He wills, I don't know what is.That is speaking of God making Himself known to the Gentiles through the preaching of the gospel. How does that mean God saved whoever He wanted without making them reponsible to choose to repent and believe? Who does God want to save?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Those who believe in Christ. And to believe in Christ is an act of the will that people are responsible to do by their own choice.


Ro*10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Ro*10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Ro*10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.Do you think that the "disobedient and gainsaying" Israelites had no chance to be saved? Did God reach out to them for nothing or did He reach out to them in the desire to provoke them to jealousy and lead them to repentance?

What Paul is saying there is that the Israelites had no excuse for not believing because God did reach out to them and offer them salvation through the preaching of His word. But many of them rejected His offer.

Butch5
Feb 24th 2010, 05:33 PM
Yes, according to that which is written.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We must be conformed to Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I agree my friend.

Firstfruits
Feb 24th 2010, 08:32 PM
I agree my friend.

Thanks Butch5,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Feb 25th 2010, 03:06 AM
Thanks Butch5,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

You are quite welcome!

saved11
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:07 PM
all men[/U], Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world


Titus 2:11-13
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN. It teaches US to say "No" to ungodliness and wordly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while WE wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for US to redeem US from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are HIS VERY OWN, eager to do what is good.

I think we cannot just read Titus 2:11 alone without continuing with verses 12-13. If we were to read all the 3 verses together, the ALL MEN refers to people that will be saved and not EVERYONE.

As to the other verses whether ALL MEN really refers to everyone, I don't have a solid opinion yet but in Titus 2:11, I would say that "ALL MEN" refers only to the people that are saved.

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 09:36 PM
Titus 2:11-13
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN. It teaches US to say "No" to ungodliness and wordly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while WE wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for US to redeem US from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are HIS VERY OWN, eager to do what is good.

I think we cannot just read Titus 2:11 alone without continuing with verses 12-13. If we were to read all the 3 verses together, the ALL MEN refers to people that will be saved and not EVERYONE.

As to the other verses whether ALL MEN really refers to everyone, I don't have a solid opinion yet but in Titus 2:11, I would say that "ALL MEN" refers only to the people that are saved.

Hi Saved11

Actually, I believe Paul is speaking of all men in Titus 2:11. The Greek word translated "appeared" is,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G2014 ἐπιφαίνω epiphainō Thayer Definition: 1) to show to or upon 1a) to bring to light 2) to appear, become visible 2a) of stars 3) to become clearly known, to show one’s self

The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament
G2014. ἐπιφαίνω epiphainō; fut. epiphanō, aor. epephēna, 2d aor. pass. epephanēn, from epi (G1909), over, upon or to, and phainō (G5316), to shine. Trans., to show forth, exhibit, shine light upon, e.g., upon the surface. Usually used in the pass. meaning to show oneself openly or before the people, to come forward, appear, with the idea of sudden or unexpected appearing. Often used in Greek literature of the gods and hence the significance of the NT epiphaneia (G2015), appearing, the noun from epiphainō (Titus 2:11; 3:4). The word is often used in Patristic Gr. of the incarnation of Christ. Intrans., to appear, e.g., of the sun (Acts 27:20); to appear, shine (Luke 1:79).

So, one of the meanings of the word is to shine this is also how it was used in the Septuagint, which is the copy of the OT Scriptures Paul would most likely have used. John also uses the metaphor of light shining to describe Christ and leaves absolutely no doubt about what he means.


John 1:5-9 ( KJV )
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John says that Christ lights or gives understanding to "Every" man that comes into the world.

Here is the definition of the Greek word translated "Light" in John 1:9.

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G5461 φωτίζω phōtizō Thayer Definition: 1) to give light, to shine 2) to enlighten, light up, illumine 3) to bring to light, render evident 3a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all 4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge 4a) to instruct, to inform, teach 4b) to give understanding to

saved11
Apr 24th 2010, 09:47 PM
Hi Butch5,

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Butch5
Apr 24th 2010, 10:05 PM
Hi Butch5,

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

You are quite welcome my friend!

mailmandan
Mar 25th 2014, 12:20 PM
Called (2282 - kletos) in Matthew 22:14 is talking about the general call of the gospel which goes out to all men every time the gospel is preached. In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we read <Adjective,2822,kletos> "called, invited," is used, (a) "of the call of the Gospel," Matt. 20:16; 22:14, not there "an effectual call," as in the Epistles, Rom. 1:1,6,7; 8:28; 1 Cor. 1:2,24; Jude 1:1; Rev. 17:14; in Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2 the meaning is "saints by calling;" (b) of "an appointment to apostleship," Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1.

Called (2564 - kaleo) in Romans 8:30 conveys the idea of an effectual call and emphasizes God's sovereign work. God has invited us to join Him in eternity in incorruptible, sinless, glorified bodies. The aorist tense points to the fact that God effectively had called them into His kingdom and service in the past. There is a distinction between the called (klhtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called. Of course, those who are justified and glorified are those who answer and abide. Romans 8:30 says ..whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Paul did not say here that whom He called, only few were justified and glorified.

episkopos
Mar 25th 2014, 01:30 PM
Paul did not say here that whom He called, only few were justified and glorified.


That's correct! Jesus said that.

Curtis
Mar 31st 2014, 03:10 PM
To throw a monkey wrench in here just to show the foreknowldge, and Wisdom of God before the world was created.

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God's Church was saved even before the world was ever created. Notice there is no mention of faith or belief here. Our salvation was secure before we even born.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Here, again, even when we were still in our sins God gave us life, and raised us up with Christ and made us sit together with him in him.
Notice there is no mention of faith or belief here either. It was just God's mercy we are saved. How can this be?
It is simple, it was because God in his foreknowledge he knew ahead of time what you would do in accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. In fact he already Glorified you ahead time because of the same foreknowledge. This boggles the human mind, and puts a kink into our thinking of salvation. This is how the Spiritual mind works, it is not ever confined to time framed thinking, or having to wait and see what is going to happen in this time based world, as they have already happened in the spirit. This is the same kind of thinking as when Jesus asked the question.......

Mat 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat 22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Time based thoughts and thinking is not able to grasp spiritual things as the natural man can not receive the things of God neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned. :)