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doug3
Feb 24th 2010, 12:50 AM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least three threads on this topic or related aspects. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel. Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not. If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:

RogerW
Feb 24th 2010, 12:57 AM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least two threads on this topic. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel. Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not. If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:

Greetings Doug,

Are not all humans born under the condemnation of death? Are there any exceptions beside Christ? Clearly since there are no exceptions (less Christ) God does not choose some to go to hell, because in fact every man will go to hell and be cast into the lake of fire if they die in unbelief. So in answer to your question, we preach the gospel and evangelize because "faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God"...and God tells us that by the foolishness of preaching He will save them that believe.

Many Blessings,
RW

Vhayes
Feb 24th 2010, 12:58 AM
I Timothy 2
3 - This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

4 - who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

5 - For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

6 - who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

I Timothy 4
9It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.

10 - For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

11 - Prescribe and teach these things.


I John 2
1 - My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 - and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Bandit
Feb 24th 2010, 01:41 AM
:B Election, predestination etc. ... are giving me a headache

Hi Doug,

I understand how you must feel, but there are different ways of understanding election and predestination. You are most likely having issue with what is known as individual election. That is the notion that God chooses (and rejects) men individually and unilaterally (the individual having no role or part in God's choice of them). I would agree with you that this view of election has substancial problems. A 2nd view of election is the corporate model. This seems to be the far better fit to scripture (in my mind). This view says that God chooses in a corporate sense - for instance he chose Israel, and He also chose the church (the Son's bride). But having made His (corporate) choice, it becomes our turn to choose as individuals. Each person must choose to accept or reject His offer to join the elect body (in our case, the church). Passages which speak of election (like Eph 1) can easily be read from a corporate perspective. The problem is that so many people are used to thinking along the lines of individual election that they totally miss the possibility of the corporate view. We can talk at this further if you like, but election and predestination are nothing to fear (or bang one's head against); they just need to be properly defined. (And of course, there will be a great many who will object to a corporate line of thought, but then, that is their choice!)

Equipped_4_Love
Feb 24th 2010, 02:30 AM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least three threads on this topic or related aspects. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel. Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not. If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:

Hi, Doug;

First of all, I would agree with Bandit in his explanation of corporate election. Election is not God choosing certain individuals for salvation, but rather choosing the church as a whole in reaching the world. As far as predestination goes, the Bible teaches that God has pre-destined those who love Him to be transformed into the image of Christ, and for eternal glorification. Thus, the concept of pre-destination only applies to Christians. Non-believers are not pre-destined.

Col. 1:13 tells us that God has delivered us out of the kingdom of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love. This verse implies that every single one of us, at one time, were participants in this kingdom of darkness, bound for hell and eternal separation from God....but when God coveyed us into Christ's kingdom, we became of heirs with Christ, and destined to one day become as He is. This is pre-destination.....God has pre-destined for glorification those who acceot Christ as Saviour. It really has nothing to do with choosing some people for heaven, and others for hell.

RogerW
Feb 24th 2010, 03:09 AM
So both the nation and the church are God's chosen people. But who among the chosen people of God are predestined unto eternal life, for it is clear that neither the whole nation nor the whole church are saved? Are they not those who are foreknown by God?

Ro*11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Ro*11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying

Ro*8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Many Blessings,
RW

pekoe
Feb 24th 2010, 04:32 AM
Hi Doug.
In a Nutshell, God "predestined" (decided beforehand) that believers (whoever chooses to believe) would be saved and that unbelievers (whoever chooses not to believe) would perish.

LookingUp
Feb 24th 2010, 04:38 AM
So both the nation and the church are God's chosen people. But who among the chosen people of God are predestined unto eternal life, for it is clear that neither the whole nation nor the whole church are saved? Are they not those who are foreknown by God?

Ro*11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Ro*11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying

Ro*8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Many Blessings,
RWAre you saying God knew some people and didn't know other people? Didn't He know all people? Or are you saying God loved some people and didn't love other people? Didn't He love all people? Or did you have something else in mind?

RogerW
Feb 24th 2010, 02:05 PM
Hi Doug.
In a Nutshell, God "predestined" (decided beforehand) that believers (whoever chooses to believe) would be saved and that unbelievers (whoever chooses not to believe) would perish.

Greetings Pekoe,

What you are in a nutshell saying is that God decides to save those who choose to believe...so ultimately salvation is not by grace but by our free will choosing. This is not what Scripture teaches us. God is not dependent upon the choices of fallen mankind to save a people for Himself. In fact if God chose based upon knowing we would first choose Him, then no man would be saved, because fallen, natural man is spiritually "dead in his trespasses and sins" and he/she is bound by Satan and death. You may not realize it, but you are in a nutshell saying man saves himself!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Feb 24th 2010, 02:22 PM
Are you saying God knew some people and didn't know other people? Didn't He know all people? Or are you saying God loved some people and didn't love other people? Didn't He love all people? Or did you have something else in mind?

Greetings LookingUp,

While it is true that God knows all people, and has a common love for all He has created. Those whom He predestines unto eternal life are not only known, but are foreknown by God in eternity...before the world began. To be foreknown by God means not only knowing us, but also ordaining or appointing those whom He foreknows unto eternal life. On Judgment Day many will be standing before the Lord thinking they knew Him because of all the wonderful works they had done in His name. But since they are not among those foreknown of God, the Lord will say, "I never knew you". So clearly there are some among man whom the Lord does not savingly love.

Mt*7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt*7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt*7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is Christ Who comes to seek and to save His lost sheep...praise the Lord! Salvation is of the Lord! And He will save to the uttermost those who belong to Him from before the foundation of the world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Feb 24th 2010, 02:29 PM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least three threads on this topic or related aspects. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel. Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not. If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:

For us to be predestined for either heaven or hell, the following scripture could not stand.

Jn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Someone destined for hell would have to be cast out.

Firstfruits

Bandit
Feb 24th 2010, 03:00 PM
Election, predestination etc...are giving me a headache :B:B ...

Hey Doug,

I am willing to answer any specific questions you have, and if you see something in someone else's post that you would like to discuss, just bring it up and we can discuss it. But I will participate only to the extent that you ask me to participate. In other words, I am here to help you understand the corporate view if you are interested; I refuse to get baited into arguments with some others who just want to argue for individual election. (Not meaning you, for I do not know you, but some on these boards just want to argue to no end, which is why it is sometimes wise to make use of your ignore list.)

Firstfruits
Feb 24th 2010, 03:49 PM
According to the scriptures, it is through the gospel of Christ that the Church was established. Those that belong to the church must abide in Christ and his word otherwise they will be cast out.

When God chose Israel he gave them commands to follow, but because of disobedience to his commands gentiles have been given the chance to come to God.

Now there is only one way that any man can come to God and that is through Christ and his gospel.

Christs invitation is for all.

Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The invitation cannot be for all if all cannot be saved except for the sin of blasphemy.

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Who is not included?

Firstfruits

BroRog
Feb 24th 2010, 04:19 PM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least three threads on this topic or related aspects. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel. Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not. If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:Hi Doug. Corporate election isn't really election at all. Corporate election says God chooses to save those who make a free will choice to believe. Okay . . . What else was he supposed to do? Did he really have a choice to do otherwise? Was he going to choose those who didn't believe? Was that a real option for him? Not really.

As human beings, we simply can't accept that God would have mercy on us. We want to be worthy of his grace somehow, and we want to think that our belief sets us apart from other people such that God is obligated to have mercy on us. But think about this, those who want God to save them aren't asking for justice or fairness; they are asking for mercy. We don't want God to be fair with us, we want God to put aside fairness in order to save us. If God was fair, he would condemn us. Simple as that. To suggest that God is sorting through humanity granting mercy on the basis of some desirable aspect is to suggest that God's salvation is based on merit, not on mercy. But God's mercy is prior to anything a man has done and is based on his purposes, not on our qualifications. No person qualifies for mercy, because mercy is given without respect to merit.

Putting aside the issue of God's foreknowledge and predestination, the least we can say is that we all elect ourselves to be in hell. As such, if we all got what we deserved, we would all wind up in hell. For God to save us from hell is not an act of justice or fairness. It's fundamentally unfair for God to save some people from hell and not others. And though it seems unquestionable and undeniable that it would be unfiting to damn believers to hell, belief is really an arbitrary reason to save someone. After all, as long as God is being unfair, he could have chosen any number of other reasons to save someone.

Sure, we all have a choice to repent, and believe the Gospel. But this doesn't make us worthy of eternal life. If we all got what we actually deserve, repentance and belief wouldn't be enough of a mitigating circumstance to keep us out of hell. We are worthy of eternal damnation. When God saves us out of his mercy, he is being fundamentally unfair to the rest of humanity.

What is the fundamental reason why God has mercy on some rather than others? God has a purpose for this existence. And as Paul argues in Romans 9, God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, not based on what a man does or what he wants, but according to his purpose. Mercy isn't arbitrary, it just doesn't depend on man's choice.

Firstfruits
Feb 24th 2010, 04:24 PM
How do we become part of the vine?

Jn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Christs words are his gospel, which is given to all. Not all will obey it but it is still for all.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Many do not know what to believe, but the truth is, salvation is for all.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Feb 24th 2010, 06:39 PM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least three threads on this topic or related aspects. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel. Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not. If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:


Here is your key statement,


Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not.

If you apply logic you come as you have done you come to the correct conclusion which you have done.

Butch5
Feb 24th 2010, 06:49 PM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least three threads on this topic or related aspects. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel. Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not. If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:

Hi Doug3,

You are correct, God does not choose who will believe and who won't. That idea comes from a handful of misinterpreted Scriptures, upon which many have built a doctrine. It is simple, God had pretedtrimed that all who would believe on Christ should have eternal life. Here it is in Jesus' own words.

John 6:40 ( KJV )
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And before anyone can say to you, yes, man has no choice whether or not to believe, we see otherwise.


Acts 13:46 ( KJV )
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

The Greek word translated" judge" means,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G2919 κρίνω krinō Thayer Definition: 1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose 2) to approve, esteem, to prefer 3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion 4) to determine, resolve, decree 5) to judge 5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong 5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one’s case may be examined and judgment passed upon it 5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure 5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others 6) to rule, govern 6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment 7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants 7a) to dispute 7b) in a forensic sense 7b1) to go to law, have suit at law

So Clearly Paul is telling the Jews that they have chosen (not God) to reject God's word.

grit
Feb 24th 2010, 07:55 PM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least three threads on this topic or related aspects. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel. Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not. If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:
Yes, it's very puzzling why God would choose to eternally save any one of a human race that has affronted Him with the infinite offense of their sinful thoughts and ways, and why He would redeem any one of them to Himself, clean them up and make them righteous, and so allow them into His heavenly presence for all eternity. It seems to make little logical sense and can cause one's head to ache to ponder that some Holy King of all that is would be so forgiving, merciful, and loving toward any who have spit in the face of His graceful providence as to flagrantly sin against what He created them to be.

It can seem so wrong on so many levels to allow any evil person a way into the glory of God's heavenly paradise, especially when they've already rejected such in the sinfulness of their countenance. Well, praise God that He took pity on me just the same, through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and that absolutely nothing in all of Creation can stand in His way or disrupt His purpose for those He will assuredly have in Heaven with Him as redeemed and holy creatures of His almighty power, absolute sovereignty, and gracious activity alone, without the slightest possibility of any creature making it otherwise than as He Himself has thus said and decreed.

It's almost as puzzling to think how anyone might think, "Hmmm.... I think I'll go to Heaven today", regardless of what God has to say about it. It seems quite silly and completely a man-made object of prideful arrogance to me (not that anyone here has in any way made such an idea of claim).

BroRog
Feb 24th 2010, 08:03 PM
Hi Doug3,

You are correct, God does not choose who will believe and who won't. That idea comes from a handful of misinterpreted Scriptures, upon which many have built a doctrine. It is simple God had pretedtrimed that all who would believe on Christ should have eternal life. Here it is in Jesus' own words.

John 6:40 ( KJV )
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And before anyone can say to you, yes, man has not choice whether or not to believe we see otherwise.


Acts 13:46 ( KJV )
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

The Greek word translated"judge" means,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G2919 κρίνω krinō Thayer Definition: 1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose 2) to approve, esteem, to prefer 3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion 4) to determine, resolve, decree 5) to judge 5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong 5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one’s case may be examined and judgment passed upon it 5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure 5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others 6) to rule, govern 6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment 7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants 7a) to dispute 7b) in a forensic sense 7b1) to go to law, have suit at law

So Clearly Paul is telling the Jews that they have chosen (not God) to reject God's word.As Paul says in Romans 9, the basis of God mercy is prior to man's choice. When it comes to the issue of predestination, man's choice is beside the question.

Freek
Feb 24th 2010, 08:05 PM
Yes, it's very puzzling why God would choose to eternally save any one of a human race that has affronted Him with the infinite offense of their sinful thoughts and ways, and why He would redeem any one of them to Himself, clean them up and make them righteous, and so allow them into His heavenly presence for all eternity. It seems to make little logical sense and can cause one's head to ache to ponder that some Holy King of all that is would be so forgiving, merciful, and loving toward any who have spit in the face of His graceful providence as to flagrantly sin against what He created them to be.

It can seem so wrong on so many levels to allow any evil person a way into the glory of God's heavenly paradise, especially when they've already rejected such in the sinfulness of their countenance. Well, praise God that He took pity on me just the same, through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and that absolutely nothing in all of Creation can stand in His way or disrupt His purpose for those He will assuredly have in Heaven with Him as redeemed and holy creatures of His almighty power, absolute sovereignty, and gracious activity alone, without the slightest possibility of any creature making it otherwise than as He Himself has thus said and decreed.

It's almost as puzzling to think how anyone might think, "Hmmm.... I think I'll go to Heaven today", regardless of what God has to say about it. It seems quite silly and completely a man-made object of prideful arrogance to me (not that anyone here has in any way made such an idea of claim).

Is there a big difference between prideful arrogance and false humility? 2 sides of the same coin, I think. Is God really sovereign? He has given His Word and cannot violate it. Therefore His sovereignity is limited by what is written.

O by the way, no evil person will enter into His glory.

grit
Feb 24th 2010, 08:19 PM
Is there a big difference between prideful arrogance and false humility? No (cf. Is. 6:5 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/6-5.htm)).
Is God really sovereign? Yes (cf. Ps. 103:19 (http://bible.cc/psalms/103-19.htm), 115:3 (http://bible.cc/psalms/115-3.htm), 135:6 (http://bible.cc/psalms/135-6.htm), and Holy Scripture lists many, many others)!
He has given His Word and cannot violate it. Therefore His sovereignity is limited by what is written. No, I think if you look closely you'll notice that such a statement as the second sentence is a logical fallacy, since God's sovereignty extends to what He has written, and assures it cannot be violated.


O by the way, no evil person will enter into His glory.And I trust you notice that I did not post that one would (cf. Rev. 21:27 (http://bible.cc/revelation/21-27.htm)). :hug:

John146
Feb 24th 2010, 09:24 PM
Greetings Pekoe,

What you are in a nutshell saying is that God decides to save those who choose to believe...so ultimately salvation is not by grace but by our free will choosing. This is not what Scripture teaches us. God is not dependent upon the choices of fallen mankind to save a people for Himself. In fact if God chose based upon knowing we would first choose Him, then no man would be saved, because fallen, natural man is spiritually "dead in his trespasses and sins" and he/she is bound by Satan and death. You may not realize it, but you are in a nutshell saying man saves himself!

Many Blessings,
RWAssume for the sake of argument that God does make all people responsible to choose whether to repent and believe or not without doing it for them or giving some a special ability to do so while not giving that to the rest. In this case, is it not still God's grace that even makes this possible to begin with? Of course it is! Without Christ's sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection nothing we chose to believe would do us any good.

God did the hard work of salvation, but He still requires us to willingly humble ourselves and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. In no way does that take away from His glory and His grace. How could it be when it has to do with people being held responsible to acknowledge that we are not good and are sinners and to acknowledge His glory and grace? I believe we are required to acknowledge that we're not good in order to be saved. That's repentance. Acknowledging that we are not good and are sinners. But you act as if those who believe as I do try to claim that our own goodness or righteousness is required to be saved. But that is not what we believe at all.

John146
Feb 24th 2010, 09:29 PM
Greetings LookingUp,

While it is true that God knows all people, and has a common love for all He has created. Those whom He predestines unto eternal life are not only known, but are foreknown by God in eternity...before the world began. To be foreknown by God means not only knowing us, but also ordaining or appointing those whom He foreknows unto eternal life. On Judgment Day many will be standing before the Lord thinking they knew Him because of all the wonderful works they had done in His name. But since they are not among those foreknown of God, the Lord will say, "I never knew you". So clearly there are some among man whom the Lord does not savingly love.

Mt*7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt*7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt*7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is Christ Who comes to seek and to save His lost sheep...praise the Lord! Salvation is of the Lord! And He will save to the uttermost those who belong to Him from before the foundation of the world.

Many Blessings,
RWSo that everyone can clearly see where you're coming from can you please confirm something for me? You believe that God arbitrarily chose who He would save and who He would not save, correct? In other words, you don't believe that He saves anyone based on anything they do at all and instead His choosing who would be saved and who wouldn't was just random or arbitrary?

Butch5
Feb 24th 2010, 09:37 PM
As Paul says in Romans 9, the basis of God mercy is prior to man's choice. When it comes to the issue of predestination, man's choice is beside the question.

BroRog, you know Paul was talking about Israel in that chapter.

doug3
Feb 24th 2010, 09:56 PM
Thank you all for your input.

blessedmommyuv3
Feb 24th 2010, 09:59 PM
BroRog, you know Paul was talking about Israel in that chapter.

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"

Jen

John146
Feb 24th 2010, 10:01 PM
As human beings, we simply can't accept that God would have mercy on us. We want to be worthy of his grace somehow, and we want to think that our belief sets us apart from other people such that God is obligated to have mercy on us. But think about this, those who want God to save them aren't asking for justice or fairness; they are asking for mercy. We don't want God to be fair with us, we want God to put aside fairness in order to save us. If God was fair, he would condemn us. Simple as that. To suggest that God is sorting through humanity granting mercy on the basis of some desirable aspect is to suggest that God's salvation is based on merit, not on mercy. But God's mercy is prior to anything a man has done and is based on his purposes, not on our qualifications. No person qualifies for mercy, because mercy is given without respect to merit. What you are leaving out here, though, is that scripture tells us who God decides to give mercy to. Yes, it's true that He's not obligated to show mercy to anyone. But by His choice this is the kind of person He has decided to show mercy to:

Deut 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Psalm 18:25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;

Psalm 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Psalm 32:10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.

Psalm 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psalm 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Psalm 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

So, these verses show that God doesn't just arbitrarily show mercy to some and not to others.


Putting aside the issue of God's foreknowledge and predestination, the least we can say is that we all elect ourselves to be in hell. As such, if we all got what we deserved, we would all wind up in hell. For God to save us from hell is not an act of justice or fairness. It's fundamentally unfair for God to save some people from hell and not others. And though it seems unquestionable and undeniable that it would be unfiting to damn believers to hell, belief is really an arbitrary reason to save someone. After all, as long as God is being unfair, he could have chosen any number of other reasons to save someone.

Sure, we all have a choice to repent, and believe the Gospel. But this doesn't make us worthy of eternal life. If we all got what we actually deserve, repentance and belief wouldn't be enough of a mitigating circumstance to keep us out of hell. We are worthy of eternal damnation. When God saves us out of his mercy, he is being fundamentally unfair to the rest of humanity. That would only be true if God did not give the rest of humanity a chance to be saved, but that is not the case. All people are given the chance. All people are called to salvation. Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14). The reason given for some being called but not chosen is that they were not willing to accept the offer to be among the chosen (Matthew 22:3).


What is the fundamental reason why God has mercy on some rather than others? God has a purpose for this existence. And as Paul argues in Romans 9, God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, not based on what a man does or what he wants, but according to his purpose. Mercy isn't arbitrary, it just doesn't depend on man's choice.So, when it says "plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee" (Psalm 86:5) it's not a person's choice to call upon Him?

When it says "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him" (Isa 55:7) it's not a person's choice to forsake their wicked ways? How could that be when scripture itself says it was their choice to take part in their wicked ways in the first place?

Isaiah 66
1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Since they chose their own ways, doesn't that mean they could have chosen to humble themselves in a contrite spirit instead? Where does it say they had no choice but to remain in their wicked ways? Where does it say they did not have the choice to humble themselves and repent instead?

BroRog
Feb 24th 2010, 10:22 PM
BroRog, you know Paul was talking about Israel in that chapter.Yes, the topic of discussion is Israel. Paul is making an argument for why inclusion in the Israel of promise is still a matter of individual election, based on God's plan and purposes, not strictly on ethnicity.

BroRog
Feb 24th 2010, 10:23 PM
Thank you all for your input.You're welcome. :)

Butch5
Feb 24th 2010, 10:38 PM
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"

Jen

Context Jen, Paul's speaks of the riches as applied to the Gentiles the rest of he chapter refers to the Jews. Just look at the first five verses. Notice verse 24, not of the Jews only, salvation came from the Jews

Butch5
Feb 24th 2010, 10:39 PM
Yes, the topic of discussion is Israel. Paul is making an argument for why inclusion in the Israel of promise is still a matter of individual election, based on God's plan and purposes, not strictly on ethnicity.

He's not making an argument for individual election. I thought that was clear enough in the passage.

BroRog
Feb 24th 2010, 10:45 PM
So, these verses show that God doesn't just arbitrarily show mercy to some and not to others.I agree. God's choice is not arbitrary. I would suggest otherwise. But the talk is about election and predestination, which focus not on the works of man, but on the creator God. Paul argues in Romans 9 that God's choice is not unjust since he has the right of authorship. He argues that God, like a potter, has the rights of a creator to make pots for mercy and other pots for destruction. And Paul places the basis of God's mercy in God's plans and purposes and not in man himself.



So then it depends not on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.


That would only be true if God did not give the rest of humanity a chance to be saved, but that is not the case. All people are given the chance. All people are called to salvation. Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14). The reason given for some being called but not chosen is that they were not willing to accept the offer to be among the chosen (Matthew 22:3).I don't see how this addresses the point I made. The Bible doesn't paint salvation in terms of God's granting us the possibility of salvation due to a favorable combination of circumstances. The granting of mercy is an act of compassion toward those who are in the least favorable circumstance.

With regard to accepting the offer, it's certainly plausible to see it as if we, somehow, had it in us to believe. But given the weight of all the evidence, and given our own experience, it is more likely that accepting the gift is an effect, not a cause of being saved.


So, when it says "plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee" (Psalm 86:5) it's not a person's choice to call upon Him?Sure it's a choice. It's always a choice. Those who call upon the name of the Lord are freely choosing to seek him. But it's also true that prior to that choice, God created that person to freely choose him. Both are true at the same time. For us it's a choice, for God it's an act of creation.

Anyplace where we make a free will choice to go one way or the other, behind that choice is an act of creation on God's part. All the other scriptures that talk about human freedom, do not negate the scriptures that talk about God's prior creative choice. Paul's statement that it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, is just as true as the Psalmist's word that he has on those who call upon him. Both are true at the same time, but not in the same way.

John146
Feb 24th 2010, 10:53 PM
I agree. God's choice is not arbitrary. I would suggest otherwise. But the talk is about election and predestination, which focus not on the works of man, but on the creator God. Paul argues in Romans 9 that God's choice is not unjust since he has the right of authorship. He argues that God, like a potter, has the rights of a creator to make pots for mercy and other pots for destruction. And Paul places the basis of God's mercy in God's plans and purposes and not in man himself.


So then it depends not on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Yes, God can have mercy on whoever He wants, but as I showed you, we can determine who it is that He shows mercy to. It isn't that He has to, but that's what He does. He shows mercy to the merciful, those who call on Him, those who fear Him, those who obey Him and so on.


I don't see how this addresses the point I made. The Bible doesn't paint salvation in terms of God's granting us the possibility of salvation due to a favorable combination of circumstances. The granting of mercy is an act of compassion toward those who are in the least favorable circumstance. If what I said didn't address your point then I simply don't know what point you're trying to make.


With regard to accepting the offer, it's certainly plausible to see it as if we, somehow, had it in us to believe. But given the weight of all the evidence, and given our own experience, it is more likely that accepting the gift is an effect, not a cause of being saved.I don't agree and really have no idea how you come to that conclusion. I see that the evidence and our own experience shows that God requires us to make a willful choice to accept the gift or not.


Sure it's a choice. It's always a choice. Those who call upon the name of the Lord are freely choosing to seek him.You don't believe that God predetermined that they would seek Him? If you do then that is not their choice at all. It would be God's choice alone in that case.


But it's also true that prior to that choice, God created that person to freely choose him. Both are true at the same time. For us it's a choice, for God it's an act of creation.Define "choice". How is it a choice when there is only one option for them? A choice requires at least two possible options.

BroRog
Feb 24th 2010, 11:01 PM
He's not making an argument for individual election. I thought that was clear enough in the passage.Yes, he argues that God's word to Israel has not failed because God's word to Israel as a nation, came with the proviso that God reserved the right to have compassion on whomever he wanted, and that it would be God's choice which individuals would populate that nation at the time the promise would be fulfilled. In order to build his case, he demonstrates that God regarded Abraham's children as those whom God designated as children of promise.



. . . nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.The profundity of his point rests in the historical circumstances surrounding the births of Isaac and Ishmael. In the case of Ishmael, Abraham and Sarah gained a son through a serogate, Hagar the maid servant. This method of gaining a son was an acceptible, but natural means to have a son. By comparison, Sarah eventually had a son through supernatural intervention, which punctuated the fact that Isaac was a child of promise, given to Sarah outside human means. Ishmael was a child of the flesh in the sense that he was born through human agency, where as Isaac was born through supernatural agency.

Both sons came from Abraham's body, but God had the final say as to which boy would be the child of promise. Given this bit of information, Paul developes his argument that the Israel of the promise would consists of persons of God's own choosing, based on his purposes, not based on being from Abraham's body.

BroRog
Feb 24th 2010, 11:30 PM
Yes, God can have mercy on whoever He wants, but as I showed you, we can determine who it is that He shows mercy to. It isn't that He has to, but that's what He does. He shows mercy to the merciful, those who call on Him, those who fear Him, those who obey Him and so on.I get that. I think it was Geisler that made this same argument in a book he wrote on the subject. In his view, God doesn't determine people, he determines catagories.


If what I said didn't address your point then I simply don't know what point you're trying to make.

Earlier I made the following statement:

To suggest that God is sorting through humanity granting mercy on the basis of some desirable aspect is to suggest that God's salvation is based on merit, not on mercy. But God's mercy is prior to anything a man has done and is based on his purposes, not on our qualifications. No person qualifies for mercy, because mercy is given without respect to merit.

I was arguing against the concept you described above. If, as Geisler suggests, God has determined to have mercy on those that place themselves into a certain category, then it really isn't mercy that God is offering, since by being in such a category we deserve God's blessing. It isn't an act of mercy but justice instead. What's he going to do? Deny someone his blessing? Wouldn't it be unjust for him to do so? Of course it would be. It would be unjust for God to deny his blessing to any one who has put themselves in the appropriate category, which makes God's blessing a matter of fairness, not mercy.

So, I understand your point above but it just isn't compatible with God's mercy since it is based on fairness and obligation, neither of which is a matter of mercy.


I don't agree and really have no idea how you come to that conclusion. I see that the evidence and our own experience shows that God requires us to make a willful choice to accept the gift or not.Many Christians would say that God goes so far as to bring us to the very brink of salvation, allowing us that final step of freedom. I believe this is called prevenient grace; We are so corrupt by sin that without God's help, we wouldn't even be in a position to make a free choice. But God, in his mercy, has made it possible for each human being to make a free choice. I personally don't think the noetic effects of sin are so drastic that it hinders our ability to make a free choice. I also don't think of salvation in terms of a single existential choice, but the trajectory of a lifetime of choices in which God is helping us face the truth as we come to know it. To me, the interaction of the heart and the Holy Spirit is mysterious but real. Nonetheless, I find various passages that seem to suggest that apart from a prior working of God, a person won't come to trust in him and follow Jesus.


You don't believe that God predetermined that they would seek Him? If you do then that is not their choice at all. It would be God's choice alone in that case.I believe that it's both our choice and God's choice at the same time. I don't accept the premise that it has to be one or the other.

blessedmommyuv3
Feb 25th 2010, 02:21 AM
Context Jen, Paul's speaks of the riches as applied to the Gentiles the rest of he chapter refers to the Jews. Just look at the first five verses. Notice verse 24, not of the Jews only, salvation came from the Jews

I disagree.

Yet you go on to say that this text does not apply to individual election, and I must point out to you the verses:

Romans 9:
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Twins; of the lineage of Abraham; both Jews--
Yet God clearly says here that He chose (elected) Jacob unto salvation---not of any works of their own--not of any choice they would make---not of any good character they would exhibit.
And we know Esau had a much better character than Jacob. But he was not elect or chosen of God.
God chooses. And He makes those choices before the foundation of the world was laid. All to fulfill His purposes and to His glory.

Jen

Sirus
Feb 25th 2010, 02:26 AM
The use of a few individuals does not demand God arbitrarily force a will on all human beings. It also does not imply God arbitraily forced a will on Jacob and Esau either. They desired and despised. The account does not say God made them to desire and despise.

Butch5
Feb 25th 2010, 02:41 AM
I disagree.

Yet you go on to say that this text does not apply to individual election, and I must point out to you the verses:

Romans 9:
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Twins; of the lineage of Abraham; both Jews--
Yet God clearly says here that He chose (elected) Jacob unto salvation---not of any works of their own--not of any choice they would make---not of any good character they would exhibit.
And we know Esau had a much better character than Jacob. But he was not elect or chosen of God.
God chooses. And He makes those choices before the foundation of the world was laid. All to fulfill His purposes and to His glory.

Jen

Hi Jen,

I believe you have overlooked a a few things. One the passage does not say God chose Jacob for salvation. Paul clearly said the elder shall serve the younger. So it Jacob was chosen to be served by Esau. However, there is no record of Esau serving Jacob as a matter of fact we see Jacob serving Esau, when he gave him the stew, However, let's back up a few verses. Paul quotes a few OT Passages

Romans 9:7-13 ( KJV )
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Here is the account,


Genesis 25:21-23 ( KJV )
And Isaac entreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was entreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD.
And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

This is the basis of Romans 9, this is what Paul is speaking of. Surely you can see the connection Paul makes. When Paul speaks of Jacob and Esau, they represent their nations. Paul even quotes what God said "the elder shall serve the younger". The first mention of the statement "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" is in Malachi the last book of the OT. That statement was made hundreds of years after Jacob and Esau were alive. If you want to see why God hated Esau (the Edomites) read the book of Obadiah, it is only one chapter and will take just a few minutes. In it God rebukes the Edomites (Esau) for their treatment of Israel (Jacob). Then look at Malachi 1:1-5. Really Jen, Romans 9 is not about individuals.

RogerW
Feb 25th 2010, 02:56 AM
Assume for the sake of argument that God does make all people responsible to choose whether to repent and believe or not without doing it for them or giving some a special ability to do so while not giving that to the rest.

Hi Eric,

God does not give every man a choice to repent and believe...He commands every man to repent and believe the gospel! I think you'll agree that most don't obey this command (just like our first parents)...but some do through the power of the Word and Spirit. It's not that some are given some ability that others are not...the only reason some repent and believe is because the Lord calls them by name, and changes their hearts making them willing to turn to Him for life everlasting.



God did the hard work of salvation, but He still requires us to willingly humble ourselves and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. In no way does that take away from His glory and His grace. How could it be when it has to do with people being held responsible to acknowledge that we are not good and are sinners and to acknowledge His glory and grace? I believe we are required to acknowledge that we're not good in order to be saved. That's repentance. Acknowledging that we are not good and are sinners. But you act as if those who believe as I do try to claim that our own goodness or righteousness is required to be saved. But that is not what we believe at all.

Eric, the problem I find with what you believe is that you make salvation dependent upon an act of unrighteous man. You say salvation is a free gift offered, but Scripture tells us salvation is a free gift given. You are confusing the gospel call that is offered to all men with the gift of salvation that is given to all who believe. Again, this makes salvation dependent upon an act of unrighteous man. You say we MUST accept this gift of salvation that is offered to all men to be saved...but Scripture shows us that we WILL turn to Christ in repentance and faith, not to be saved, but because we have been born again. Whether you realize it or not your way of salvation is NOT by grace, but by faith you insist fallen man possesses even though it is impossible to have saving faith without the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Feb 25th 2010, 03:01 AM
Yes, he argues that God's word to Israel has not failed because God's word to Israel as a nation, came with the proviso that God reserved the right to have compassion on whomever he wanted, and that it would be God's choice which individuals would populate that nation at the time the promise would be fulfilled. In order to build his case, he demonstrates that God regarded Abraham's children as those whom God designated as children of promise.



. . . nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.The profundity of his point rests in the historical circumstances surrounding the births of Isaac and Ishmael. In the case of Ishmael, Abraham and Sarah gained a son through a serogate, Hagar the maid servant. This method of gaining a son was an acceptible, but natural means to have a son. By comparison, Sarah eventually had a son through supernatural intervention, which punctuated the fact that Isaac was a child of promise, given to Sarah outside human means. Ishmael was a child of the flesh in the sense that he was born through human agency, where as Isaac was born through supernatural agency.

Both sons came from Abraham's body, but God had the final say as to which boy would be the child of promise. Given this bit of information, Paul developes his argument that the Israel of the promise would consists of persons of God's own choosing, based on his purposes, not based on being from Abraham's body.

BroRog, in Romans 9:8, who are the children of promise that are spoken of?

Sirus
Feb 25th 2010, 03:07 AM
You are confusing the gospel call that is offered to all men with the gift of salvation that is given to all who believe.What it actually says is the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe (eth) -continue believing (Greek). How then can you say man is not a part of the equation? Abrahm believed God....it does not say God caused Abraham to believe.

RogerW
Feb 25th 2010, 03:11 AM
So that everyone can clearly see where you're coming from can you please confirm something for me? You believe that God arbitrarily chose who He would save and who He would not save, correct? In other words, you don't believe that He saves anyone based on anything they do at all and instead His choosing who would be saved and who wouldn't was just random or arbitrary?

Eric, every man is born under the condemnation of death...left in unbelief no man will be saved. So God chooses from eternity to save some (you'll have to ask Him why He did not choose to save every man when you see Him), not in accordance to anything good (choosing Him) that they will do, but simply because He is the Potter and has power over the clay to show mercy and compassion on whosoever He wills. If our salvation is based upon anything man does, then salvation is not of grace....if God needs our help to save a people for Himself then salvation is by grace plus the efforts of unrighteous man.

I think a major problem for you is that you have somehow come to think we are saved by faith, and since you think unrighteous man possesses the kind of faith necessary for salvation, you insist that all we have to do is put our faith in Christ, and then God will extend to us His grace. But that is opposite of what Scripture teaches us...for Scripture says we are saved by grace through faith....none of this, whether salvation itself, or only faith for salvation, comes from within the hearts of unrighteous man...it is ALL a gift of God's grace that no man can boast, thinking he was saved because he had faith, he trusted Christ so God rewards him with grace. This is not grace!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Feb 25th 2010, 03:13 AM
What is actually says is the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe (eth) -continue believing (Greek). How then can you say man is not a part of the equation? Abrahm believed God....it does not say God caused Abraham to believe.

Hi Sirus,

How did Abraham believe God?

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Feb 25th 2010, 03:14 AM
Eric, every man is born under the condemnation of death...left in unbelief no man will be saved.Man is born in unbelief? Scripture teaches the opposite.

Sirus
Feb 25th 2010, 03:14 AM
Hi Sirus,

How did Abraham believe God?

Many Blessings,
RWGod gave a promise and he believed it.

RogerW
Feb 25th 2010, 03:26 AM
What is actually says is the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe (eth) -continue believing (Greek). How then can you say man is not a part of the equation? Abrahm believed God....it does not say God caused Abraham to believe.

Sorry Sirus, I neglected to answer your question? In this life, while in this body of flesh how do I know with blessed assurance that I will believe unto the saving of my soul?

Php*1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Heb*12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb*2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Ro*8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro*8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ro*8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Ro*8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Feb 25th 2010, 03:29 AM
None of those take man out of the equation. They put Christ as the answer and object of faith.
If you deny me, I will deny you.......ring any bells?

RogerW
Feb 25th 2010, 03:30 AM
God gave a promise and he believed it.

You have not explained how Abraham believed. Abraham believed God the same way we do...by hearing the gospel.

Ga*3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Feb 25th 2010, 03:33 AM
That's what I said Roger. God gives a promise and we, not God, either believe or we don't. That's how it has always worked.

RogerW
Feb 25th 2010, 04:00 AM
That's what I said Roger. God gives a promise and we, not God, either believe or we don't. That's how it has always worked.

Faith (ability to believe) comes by hearing and hearing by the gospel! Abraham believed God because he heard God, it was not that he had faith and that was why he heard. God chose Abraham, Abraham did not choose God. Having chosen Abraham, God preaches to him the gospel, and Abraham by hearing the gospel believed God and he was numbered with the righteous. None of Abraham...all of God!

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Feb 25th 2010, 04:03 AM
How did Abraham hear?

RogerW
Feb 25th 2010, 04:30 AM
How did Abraham hear?

He is one of the Lord's sheep!

Joh*10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Sirus
Feb 25th 2010, 04:41 AM
He was created to hear Roger. We all are. We have a spirit from God and are made in His image for the purpose of having a relationship with Him. All men having the ability to have faith. This is obvous in the fact that all men do have faith in something or many things. Since all have "Faith (ability to believe)", why don't some hear the gospel when they hear the gospel? Abraham would be a sheep because he hears and follows. A sheep that refused to hear and does not follow wanders off to be devoured.

Freek
Feb 25th 2010, 05:08 AM
How did Abraham hear?

Interesting question. How did God speak to him? In person?

LookingUp
Feb 25th 2010, 05:10 AM
Greetings LookingUp,

While it is true that God knows all people, and has a common love for all He has created.What do you mean He has a “common love” for all He has created? In what way does He love those who He did not predestine unto eternal life?


Those whom He predestines unto eternal life are not only known, but are foreknown by God in eternity...before the world began. To be foreknown by God means not only knowing us, but also ordaining or appointing those whom He foreknows unto eternal life.And why did He ordain me to eternal life? And what about my grandfather who died an unbeliever? He did not ordain him to eternal life? Why not?


It is Christ Who comes to seek and to save His lost sheep...praise the Lord!Lost sheep? Wasn’t my grandfather lost?

RogerW
Feb 25th 2010, 06:53 PM
What do you mean He has a “common love” for all He has created? In what way does He love those who He did not predestine unto eternal life?

Greetings LookingUp,

Mt*5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Lu*6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Ps*145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Ps*36:6 Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.



And why did He ordain me to eternal life? And what about my grandfather who died an unbeliever? He did not ordain him to eternal life? Why not?

1. For His good pleasure. He is the Potter, Who molds the clay to be whatsoever He wills it shall be.
2. I don't know why God did not ordain your grandfather unto eternal life...God alone knows this.

In fact God says to us through His servant Paul, "O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"



Lost sheep? Wasn’t my grandfather lost?

We are all lost, even "dead in trespasses and sins"....Christ came to lay down His life for HIS lost sheep, not every lost human, only His sheep.

Joh*10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh*10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh*10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Joh*10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh*10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh*10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Feb 25th 2010, 07:24 PM
He is one of the Lord's sheep!

Joh*10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

That wasn't the question!

pekoe
Feb 25th 2010, 09:19 PM
posted by RogerW
Greetings Pekoe,
What you are in a nutshell saying is that God decides to save those who choose to believe...
Yes, that’s what I’m saying exactly.

….so ultimately salvation is not by grace but by our free will choosing.
God allowing us to come to faith in Jesus of our own free will is grace.

This is not what Scripture teaches us.
Yes, it is.

God is not dependent upon the choices of fallen mankind to save a people for Himself.
That’s true, as God is not dependent upon mankind for anything, nevertheless, that was Gods will.
“…it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” 1 Co.1:21

In fact if God chose based upon knowing we would first choose Him, then no man would be saved, because fallen, natural man is spiritually "dead in his trespasses and sins" and he/she is bound by Satan and death.
Being sinners doesn’t prevent us from making choices that are good for us.
“Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Ti.2:4

You may not realize it, but you are in a nutshell saying man saves himself!
No I haven’t, because I never said mankind provides the acceptable sacrifice for sins. God made that provision for us. But I’ll tell you this my friend, you are teaching that it is God Almightys will for people to be damned and you better rethink your position.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but
have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

John146
Feb 25th 2010, 10:16 PM
I disagree.

Yet you go on to say that this text does not apply to individual election, and I must point out to you the verses:

Romans 9:
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Twins; of the lineage of Abraham; both Jews--
Yet God clearly says here that He chose (elected) Jacob unto salvation---not of any works of their own--not of any choice they would make---not of any good character they would exhibit.
And we know Esau had a much better character than Jacob. But he was not elect or chosen of God.
God chooses. And He makes those choices before the foundation of the world was laid. All to fulfill His purposes and to His glory.

JenThat is not true. The reference to Jacob and Esau has absolutely nothing to do with individual election to salvation. Jacob represents the nation of Israel and Esau the nation of Edom. Notice that it says "the older will serve the younger". Is that a reference to the person Esau serving his brother Jacob? No, it isn't. It has to do with the people of Edom serving the people of Israel. Just as it says "the one people (Israel) shall be stronger than the other people (Edom)".

Genesis 25
20And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian.
21And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23And the LORD said unto her, [B]Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

John146
Feb 25th 2010, 10:27 PM
Hi Eric,

God does not give every man a choice to repent and believe...He commands every man to repent and believe the gospel!He gives everyone the choice to obey the command or not. If they do not then they will suffer the consequences on the day He has appointed to judge the world.


I think you'll agree that most don't obey this command (just like our first parents)...but some do through the power of the Word and Spirit. It's not that some are given some ability that others are not...the only reason some repent and believe is because the Lord calls them by name, and changes their hearts making them willing to turn to Him for life everlasting. Scripture doesn't teach this anywhere, which is probably why you didn't offer any in support of your claim.


Eric, the problem I find with what you believe is that you make salvation dependent upon an act of unrighteous man.No, I don't. God does. Take it up with Him if you have a problem with it. God's message to unrighteous men around the world:

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


You say salvation is a free gift offered, but Scripture tells us salvation is a free gift given.Given to those who choose to believe. You cannot possibly reconcile your doctrine with what is taught in a parable like we find in Matthew 22:1-14. That passage makes it clear that the preaching of the gospel is an invitation, an offer to people for salvation, for entering into a relationship with Christ. That parable makes it clear that some do not accept the gospel because they are not willing. You say they are not able to accept it, but scripture says it's that they are not willing to accept it. Since others do accept it that shows that man is held responsible to be willing to accept it.

The reason that people are condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18) is not because God did not give them the ability to believe in Him but because they willingly chose to not believe in Him despite having the ability to choose to believe in Him. Your doctrine takes responsibility away from man and makes it so that man is condemned because of how God made him. That makes absolutely no sense.


You are confusing the gospel call that is offered to all men with the gift of salvation that is given to all who believe.No, I am not.


Again, this makes salvation dependent upon an act of unrighteous man.God desires all people to repent and be saved (Eze 33:11, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31, 1 Tim 2:3-6), so it is God who makes salvation partially dependent on an act of the heart of unrighteous man.


You say we MUST accept this gift of salvation that is offered to all men to be savedAbsolutely.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


...but Scripture shows us that we WILL turn to Christ in repentance and faith, not to be saved, but because we have been born again.Actually, scripture doesn't show us that anywhere.


Whether you realize it or not your way of salvation is NOT by graceWhere you realize it or not, you're wrong. Without God's gracious act of sending His son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2, John 3:16) no one could be saved. But because He did all people have the opportunity to be saved. That is grace if I ever saw it. Giving salvation only to some while withholding it to others is not what I would call grace. I would call that partiality, but God is not partial.


but by faith you insist fallen man possesses even though it is impossible to have saving faith without the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.Scripture never says that.

John146
Feb 25th 2010, 10:49 PM
Eric, every man is born under the condemnation of death...left in unbelief no man will be saved. So God chooses from eternity to save some (you'll have to ask Him why He did not choose to save every man when you see Him)I won't need to ask Him that question. His Word tells me. His Word tells me it's because people chose to serve other gods rather than Him (Joshua 24:15). It's because people choose to resist God rather than humble themselves before Him and submit to Him.

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


not in accordance to anything good (choosing Him) that they will do, but simply because He is the Potter and has power over the clay to show mercy and compassion on whosoever He wills. If our salvation is based upon anything man does, then salvation is not of graceShow me where scripture teaches this. This is all your words and no scripture.


if God needs our help to save a people for Himself then salvation is by grace plus the efforts of unrighteous man. it isn't that He needs our help, it's that He chose to make man responsible. You take man's responsibility completely out of the equation even though scripture repeatedly speaks about the responsibility that God has put on mankind. You think that He allows the wicked to die and that's okay with Him because He didn't choose them for salvation. But scripture says that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and instead wants them to repent and turn to Him and live rather than remain in their wickedness (Ezekiel 33:11).


I think a major problem for you is that you have somehow come to think we are saved by faithSomehow? It's taught throughout scripture, Roger.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


, and since you think unrighteous man possesses the kind of faith necessary for salvation, you insist that all we have to do is put our faith in Christ, and then God will extend to us His grace.No, He has extended His grace to all men and expects all men to respond with faith.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


But that is opposite of what Scripture teaches us for Scripture says we are saved by grace through faithRight. Through our personal faith in Christ.


.none of this, whether salvation itself, or only faith for salvation, comes from within the hearts of unrighteous manWhere does scripture teach that?


it is ALL a gift of God's grace that no man can boast, thinking he was saved because he had faith, he trusted Christ so God rewards him with grace. This is not grace!No, it says it is not of works so no one can boast of their good works as if by doing good works they earned their salvation. Faith is not the kind of work that Paul was talking about. The good works we do follow salvation that comes by grace through faith, as we can see in Ephesians 2:10. If faith was included in the kind of work that Paul said is not part of salvation then it couldn't say that we are saved by grace through faith. Faith would be included in the part that speaks about what doesn't save us in that case (works).

pekoe
Feb 26th 2010, 03:21 AM
"For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD." Pr.1:29

Did not choose, or could not choose?

GodIsLove1
Feb 26th 2010, 03:39 AM
Hi Roger, I hope it's okay if I jump in here. Way back in post #10, you wrote:

While it is true that God knows all people, and has a common love for all He has created. Those whom He predestines unto eternal life are not only known, but are foreknown by God in eternity...before the world began. To be foreknown by God means not only knowing us, but also ordaining or appointing those whom He foreknows unto eternal life. On Judgment Day many will be standing before the Lord thinking they knew Him because of all the wonderful works they had done in His name. But since they are not among those foreknown of God, the Lord will say, "I never knew you". So clearly there are some among man whom the Lord does not savingly love.

I think it would be important to realize here that Jesus is NOT speaking about some "un-elect" that lived believing they were Christian, only to be shocked in the end that their name was never in "the Book of Life."

No.

The scripture you provide...

Mt*7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt*7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt*7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ... is a judgment upon False Prophets (and those who follow them).

Here is His lead-in: Matt 7:
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" [/QUOTE]

This passage is all of ONE piece. It cannot be separated for the purposes of describing any so-called elect. It is all a warning to those who would believe, what they must watch for.

Let's look back for a moment at your first verse as well.

Matt. 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Jesus certainly seems to be saying that entering the Kingdom is no pre-ordained or foregone conclusion based upon divine foreknowledge. In His warning, Jesus provides the call for all to, "Do the Will of My Father..." And what is the "will of [the] Father," but to perform the act (DO) of believing on His Son and the work of Salvation which God alone can begin and complete.

Faith is a gift (grace), indeed. We can't whip-it-up. Still, if God desires that "ALL men be saved" then it is a gift already given to "All men." The question becomes will we Un-Wrap our gift, and from there on, play merrily with our present in the lap of our Father?

Will it shock you then, to discover that I agree with your closing to that post?


It is Christ Who comes to seek and to save His lost sheep...praise the Lord! Salvation is of the Lord! And He will save to the uttermost those who belong to Him from before the foundation of the world.

There is NOTHING that does NOT Belong to Him (even from before the foundation of the world).

(By the way, I'm Not a Universalist. I'm just saying that God never, ever gives up on a single one of us.)

Peace be yours, through our Lord and Savior,

Marc

GodIsLove1
Feb 26th 2010, 04:01 AM
Hi all,

Just a side note to the earlier discussions concerning Paul's explanation of God's choosing Israel. Chapters 9 and 10 of Romans must always, always, always (did I say "always"?), be viewed through the lens of his final word on the subject in chapter 11.



from "The Amplified Bible"
Romans 11:

25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the in-gathering of the Gentiles has come in,

26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.

27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.

28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.

29 For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

30 Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedienceI truly Love the Lord for revealing this to Paul.

Love,

Marc

RogerW
Feb 26th 2010, 04:38 PM
Somehow? It's taught throughout scripture, Roger.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



Hi Eric,

Since you believe we will be given eternal life by placing our faith in Christ, using the example of Abraham I want to see if there is any way we might find common ground on both "grace" and "faith."

Scripture shows us that Abraham believed (had faith) God, and it was credited/accounted/imputed to him for righteousness (see Ro 4:3; Ga 3:6; Ja 2:23). Since Abraham was clearly a man of faith, why does Scripture tell us that he died without receiving the promise he patiently looked for? Since Abraham was indeed a man of faith, if our faith brings us eternal life, why don't we read 'because Abraham believed God (was a man of faith), when he died he received the promise he died patiently waiting for'?

The promise Abraham looked for was "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Heb 11:10). Hebrews 11:16 says Abraham died in faith looking for "a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city".

Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness (Christian justification), yet when he died in faith he did not inherit the heavenly home he died longing for...why, if indeed our faith brings us eternal life?

Abraham believed (had faith) the promise of God, but his faith could not bring unto him eternal life, because even though we all know the promises of God are always yes and amen, a covenant promise is just a covenant promise until the terms of the covenant promise is fulfilled through the faithfulness of Christ alone. Abraham could not inherit his eternal home through his faith anymore then we can. Why? Because we are not saved by our faith, we are saved by grace (by the means of His death; His blood). "...there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Heb*9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb*9:16 For where a testament [covenant] is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb*9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb*9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Feb 26th 2010, 04:50 PM
Hi Roger, I hope it's okay if I jump in here. Way back in post #10, you wrote:

I think it would be important to realize here that Jesus is NOT speaking about some "un-elect" that lived believing they were Christian, only to be shocked in the end that their name was never in "the Book of Life."

Greetings Marc & welcome to the community!

Of course! Chirst is speaking to those who think they deserve eternal life by their own efforts. The on-going discussion here has to do with this same type reasoning. Some argue that we deserve eternal life by putting our faith in Christ, and through this we receive grace. I am however convinced by the abundance of Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of God's grace...in other words you cannot place saving faith, you do not possess in Christ prior to receiving grace.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Feb 26th 2010, 08:39 PM
Hi Eric,

Since you believe we will be given eternal life by placing our faith in Christ, using the example of Abraham I want to see if there is any way we might find common ground on both "grace" and "faith."

Scripture shows us that Abraham believed (had faith) God, and it was credited/accounted/imputed to him for righteousness (see Ro 4:3; Ga 3:6; Ja 2:23). Since Abraham was clearly a man of faith, why does Scripture tell us that he died without receiving the promise he patiently looked for? Since Abraham was indeed a man of faith, if our faith brings us eternal life, why don't we read 'because Abraham believed God (was a man of faith), when he died he received the promise he died patiently waiting for'?

The promise Abraham looked for was "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Heb 11:10). Hebrews 11:16 says Abraham died in faith looking for "a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city".

Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness (Christian justification), yet when he died in faith he did not inherit the heavenly home he died longing for...why, if indeed our faith brings us eternal life? But he will inherit that promise so why does it matter when he inherits it?


Abraham believed (had faith) the promise of God, but his faith could not bring unto him eternal life, because even though we all know the promises of God are always yes and amen, a covenant promise is just a covenant promise until the terms of the covenant promise is fulfilled through the faithfulness of Christ alone.Why are you acting as if Abraham will never inherit the promise? He will. Why? Because of his faith.


Abraham could not inherit his eternal home through his faith anymore then we can. Why? Because we are not saved by our faith, we are saved by grace (by the means of His death; His blood). "...there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). We are saved by grace through our faith in Christ. Scripture teaches this repeatedly.


Heb*9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb*9:16 For where a testament [covenant] is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb*9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb*9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. How does this passage support your view at all?

RogerW
Feb 26th 2010, 11:52 PM
But he will inherit that promise so why does it matter when he inherits it?

Eric, it matters because you believe Abraham inherits eternal life by his faith. Clearly that is NOT TRUE! If it were true then why didn't Abraham inherit eternal life when he died? After all he was a man of faith, clinging to the promise of God! He did not inherit eternal life when he died, (as we now do since the cross) because if he had he would have been saved by his faith!!! But that cannot be, and the reason that no OT saint, though dying in faith did not receive eternal life in Christ before Christ literally went to the cross to redeem them.



Why are you acting as if Abraham will never inherit the promise? He will. Why? Because of his faith.

It's true Abraham finally did inherit the promise, but it matters greatly because it disproves your belief that we and he are saved by placing our faith in Christ. We are saved by GRACE!!!...through faith that is not our own, but the gift of God, Abraham is no exception!



We are saved by grace through our faith in Christ. Scripture teaches this repeatedly.

I will agree with you that the gift of faith is given to you, and is the reason we can lay claim to faith. However we are NOT saved by our faith in Christ....ONCE MORE, we are saved by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of God...why? so no man can boast, claiming they had saving faith, and obediently place it in Christ, when others don't.



How does this passage support your view at all?

The passage from Hebrews 9 shows us that no man receives his eternal inheritance until after Christ died for them. Since Abraham is used to prove it is our faith placed in Christ that gives us eternal life, this passage from Hebrews should put that notion to rest. Since Abraham is the father of the faithful, and those of like faith heirs according to the same promise, if his faith was not the means of obtaining the inheritance, it is not logical to think that we can place our faith in Christ to obtain eternal life. After all are we not of the same faith, the same spiritual seed as faithful Abraham?

Many Blessings,
RW

LookingUp
Mar 2nd 2010, 03:38 AM
Greetings LookingUp,

Mt*5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Lu*6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Ps*145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Ps*36:6 Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.So, His sun rises on the evil and He sends rain on the evil but in just a few short years they’ll be sent straight to hell. This is love!?

So, I’ll provide food and shelter for my children, so they'll grow up big and strong just so I can feed them to the ferocious hungry lions…and their suffering will never end!? Are you kidding me? This is love?


1. For His good pleasure. He is the Potter, Who molds the clay to be whatsoever He wills it shall be.It is pleasurable to Him that His precious piece of art work be subjected to eternal torture?!


2. I don't know why God did not ordain your grandfather unto eternal life...God alone knows this.

In fact God says to us through His servant Paul, "O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"You have heard the other takes on this and you choose to believe God is one who makes little babies knowing He will throw them into hell to torture them eternally.


We are all lost, even "dead in trespasses and sins"....Christ came to lay down His life for HIS lost sheep, not every lost human, only His sheep.

Joh*10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh*10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh*10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Joh*10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh*10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh*10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Many Blessings,
RWWow. I’m in shock.

Butch5
Mar 2nd 2010, 02:50 PM
So, His sun rises on the evil and He sends rain on the evil but in just a few short years they’ll be sent straight to hell. This is love!?

So, I’ll provide food and shelter for my children, so they'll grow up big and strong just so I can feed them to the ferocious hungry lions…and their suffering will never end!? Are you kidding me? This is love?

It is pleasurable to Him that His precious piece of art work be subjected to eternal torture?!

You have heard the other takes on this and you choose to believe God is one who makes little babies knowing He will throw them into hell to torture them eternally.

Wow. I’m in shock.

Don't be shocked Julie, that is how they have to interpret the passages in an attempt to support their doctrines.

John146
Mar 3rd 2010, 02:09 PM
Eric, it matters because you believe Abraham inherits eternal life by his faith. Clearly that is NOT TRUE! If it were true then why didn't Abraham inherit eternal life when he died? After all he was a man of faith, clinging to the promise of God! He did not inherit eternal life when he died, (as we now do since the cross) because if he had he would have been saved by his faith!!! But that cannot be, and the reason that no OT saint, though dying in faith did not receive eternal life in Christ before Christ literally went to the cross to redeem them. Roger, you're not making any sense. Is Abraham somehow saved any differently than we are today? Scripture repeatedly says that we are saved as a result of having faith in Christ (John 3:16, Romans 10:9-13, Acts 16:30-31, Gal 3:26, etc.). Abraham was justified by his faith (Gen 15:6, Rom 4:3, Gal 3:6).


It's true Abraham finally did inherit the promise, but it matters greatly because it disproves your belief that we and he are saved by placing our faith in Christ.No, it doesn't. Scripture teaches that repeatedly. The prison keeper asked Paul and Silas what he had to do to be saved and their response was "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:30-31). Yet, you're inexplicably trying to claim that we do not have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved, which contradicts scripture.


We are saved by GRACE!!!...through faith that is not our own, but the gift of God, Abraham is no exception!Scripture never says that. It says that Abraham was justified by his own faith (Gen 15:6, Rom 4:3-5).


I will agree with you that the gift of faith is given to you, and is the reason we can lay claim to faith. However we are NOT saved by our faith in ChristYes, we are, Roger, and that is taught repeatedly in scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rom 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


....ONCE MORE, we are saved by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of God...why? so no man can boast, claiming they had saving faith, and obediently place it in Christ, when others don't. No, Paul said that we saved by grace through faith and not of works. We are not saved by works, so if faith was a work then how could we be saved by grace through faith? If faith was a work then he would have said we are saved by grace alone and not by works and the "through faith" part wouldn't be there.

If man had reason to exalt himself because of choosing to put his faith in Christ, please tell me how that could be the case? If man chooses to humble himself and repent of his sins and surrender His life to Christ as his Lord and Savior how can that be a case of man exalting himself because of his faith? It's just the opposite. He is humbling himself and acknowledging that he has nothing to boast about and needs forgiveness and needs Christ as his Lord and Savior. Where is boasting in that?


The passage from Hebrews 9 shows us that no man receives his eternal inheritance until after Christ died for them. Since Abraham is used to prove it is our faith placed in Christ that gives us eternal life, this passage from Hebrews should put that notion to rest. Since Abraham is the father of the faithful, and those of like faith heirs according to the same promise, if his faith was not the means of obtaining the inheritance, it is not logical to think that we can place our faith in Christ to obtain eternal life. After all are we not of the same faith, the same spiritual seed as faithful Abraham?You're not making any sense. It is because he had faith that he then became an heir of eternal life through Christ.

Gal 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Abraham believed God and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. This is very clear, yet you still try to deny it. They which have faith like Abraham are the spiritual children of Abraham.

Gal 3
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This shows that Abraham's faith made him an heir according to the promise and our faith in Christ makes us Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise as well.

grit
Mar 3rd 2010, 03:43 PM
So... I guess you guys are still really helping doug3 with the OP ?

Mathetes
Mar 3rd 2010, 08:42 PM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least three threads on this topic or related aspects. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Hi Doug3,

It's a difficult teaching, to be sure, but the real question should be, "What does Scripture teach?" We need to be careful to believe in God as he has revealed himself in Scripture, not based on whether it is contrary to our views on what is "fundamentally wrong and illogical."

Now you answered your question in your very comments above. You said that God is sovereign, and really that is ultimately what the Reformed Christian is after: believing in the absolute sovereignty of God. When we say that God is sovereign, we say that he is free. He has rights but no duties. We, OTOH, have duties but no rights. We need to take care not to confuse these. Since God is free, he creates some vessels for honor and some for dishonor:

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:17-24)

I boldfaced the parts of the passage that I think reinforce my point. This text brings out some very undeniable truths:

1. God raised up a single individual (not a nation or group)--the Pharaoh--for the purpose of bringing glory to himself through that individual's sins.

2. God wants to show mercy to some, but he wants to harden others.

3. Both the objects of wrath and the objects of mercy are made by God. The former are prepared for destruction, while the latter are prepared for glory.

4. God, the sovereign potter, has the right to do these things.


Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel.Because that is what man should do. That does not indicate what man can do.


Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not.Of course they have a choice. But just because someone is given a choice does not mean that they are able to make the choice. The offer of a choice does not say anything about the ability of those to whom the offer is made.


If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:Preaching is the means that God has chosen to bring the elect to Christ: "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." (1 Cor. 1:21)

When the elect do come to faith, they must have a message to believe. One cannot have faith in nothing. Faith needs an object.

pekoe
Mar 4th 2010, 01:47 AM
God does not "want to" harden peoples hearts. The Bible says God wants all people to be saved.

When the Bible says God "hardened Pharaohs heart", it means Pharaoh was hardened by what Moses said to him. Pharaohs heart was made hard by his own pride when he heard Gods command. It is not that God "wouldn't let" Pharaoh repent. Do you understand? It's the same thing if I said, "I'm going to tell you something and it's going to make you mad."

Sirus
Mar 4th 2010, 05:22 AM
The first time we see Pharaoh's heart hardened in scripture God did the hardening. While we do not know specifically what transpired between God and Pharoah's throughout his life. We know God gave him the same opportunities (moral law, truth, knowledge of God -Rom 1-3) He gives all men since He is not a respecter of persons.

pekoe
Mar 4th 2010, 12:50 PM
God did the hardening in the sense that Pharaoh became indignent by what God wanted (to let his people go). It's obvious from the text. God chooses those of faith. Abraham, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob ove Esau, etc. That God knew Pharaohs heart would be hardened doesn't mean God hardened it Himself. Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

MaryFreeman
Mar 4th 2010, 10:45 PM
Hi,

First, apologies are due because there are already at least three threads on this topic or related aspects. However they are giving me a headache :B:B as nothing has shown me why God would choose some people for salvation and some for hell :eek:. That seems to me fundamentally wrong and illogical. I just do not understand how anyone can believe that. God is sovereign, but He is not a cruel despot!

Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell. If that is the case, is it not so that we are no better than animals or robots. :confused

Further, why did Jesus preach repent and believe the gospel. Surely that logically infers that people have a choice to repent and believe or not. If they do not have a choice, what then is then the point of evangelising and preaching? :hmm:

Everything you need is found in John 3.... The discussion Jesus had with Nicodemus.... A PHARISEE :eek:! Look in John 3.... This is all you need to know about Jesus ultimate mission to bridge the gap between man and God....

Sirus
Mar 5th 2010, 03:04 AM
God did the hardening in the sense that Pharaoh became indignent by what God wanted (to let his people go). It's obvious from the text. God chooses those of faith. Abraham, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob ove Esau, etc. That God knew Pharaohs heart would be hardened doesn't mean God hardened it Himself. Pharaoh hardened his own heart.It says "And he hardened Pharaoh's heart". I was very plain that for this to happen we know Pharoah's heart had long been hardened. God does not harden anyone that has not hardened themselves first.

pekoe
Mar 5th 2010, 02:45 PM
posted by Sirus
It says "And he hardened Pharaoh's heart". I was very plain that for this to happen we know Pharoah's heart had long been hardened. God does not harden anyone that has not hardened themselves first.

Yes Sirus, I see that now.....sorry. This is a topic that cuts me to the heart. I think it's monsterous for people to say that God created people just to destroy them.

grit
Mar 5th 2010, 03:04 PM
This is a topic that cuts me to the heart. I think it's monsterous for people to say that God created people just to destroy them.Amen. I'm glad Reformed theology and the doctrine of election and predestination doesn't teach that, and I've studied it in the Christian Scriptures and Christian writers all my life, and taught, preached, and lived it for over 30 years. God didn't create any angels for Hell either, but He still created Hell, where Jesus says that some of created men and angels will certainly suffer eternal fire. Praise God that His ways are above my own, and His thoughts higher than my own. Praise God that He is greater, holier, and more loving and just than I can fully comprehend or insist that He bend to my standards, choices, and dictates.

BroRog
Mar 5th 2010, 03:58 PM
Yes Sirus, I see that now.....sorry. This is a topic that cuts me to the heart. I think it's monsterous for people to say that God created people just to destroy them.

I'm truly sorry this discussion hurts you. At this point it would be appropriate for me to say that the concept of predestination and election was intended to comfort us not to cause us pain or torture us. Paul's comment in Romans 8, for instance, was intended to give believers hope, and comfort in the midst of hardship and difficulty. Paul tried to say to us believers that God is in control and that nothing at all can keep us from his love. This is a message about our hope as believers and God's love for us. His comment in Romans 9, wasn't supposed to be a cold, sterile, clinical look at God's sovereignty, though theologians have a field day with it; rather it was intended to inform his readers that God's ways are not unjust or arbitrary or random. He has a purpose for everything he does, but even if we can't understand what that purpose is right now, we can rest in his love, righteousness and goodness. In Romans 5, Paul pulls back the curtain a little bit to help us understand that even during our struggles with faith, God is right there helping us along and can guarantee that he will not let us go.

While these debates and discussions can cause us to get depressed and upset and even angry at God sometimes, the passages from which these discussions come are not intended to cause suffering, anxiety, or pain. They are intended to give us hope and a window into God's power to actualize his love in the world.

pekoe
Mar 5th 2010, 06:08 PM
Hi BroRog.
Thank you for your insight. The pain for me doesn't come from the passages dealing with election/predestination, but from how they are maligned. I firmly believe salvation is offered to every person God made.
I confess that I have rage over what I consider slander against God who is merciful. I'm astounded by how our Lord Jesus endured the liars who spoke against Him. I'm ashamed to say if it was me, I'd be in a fist fight.

anthony57
Mar 16th 2010, 04:49 AM
Hi Doug:


Does all this mean that some people are born to go to hell.

Yes, Some People are born to go to hell, they are called in scripture vessels of wrath fitted for destruction rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Also peter describes false teachers as made to be taken and destroyed, as brute beast are..2 pet 2:

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The word made here is the greek word gennaō::

of men who fathered children

a) to be born

b) to be begotten

1) of women giving birth to children

The same word is used of judas here Matt 26:



24The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! [B]it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

So those peter describes were born to be taken and destroyed...and if its true of them, its true of others..

anthony57
Mar 16th 2010, 04:56 AM
sirus:



God does not harden anyone that has not hardened themselves first.


That cannot be True, or it would not make sense to say God hardened someones Heart..which scripture does say..

deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

This scripture with the reference of pharoah are scriptural evidences that God first hardens ones heart, and of course as a consequence, one cannot but harden their own heart, for who can resist His will ?

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 16th 2010, 04:03 PM
Its God that hardens... not man...

but there are those that will believe that 'man' is in control of the Potter and that the Potter is 'subject' onto the man...

Not the Case...

Its God that hardens.... and He softens...the heart...

He can do what every He pleases with the 'clay'..

John146
Mar 16th 2010, 07:04 PM
Hi Doug:



Yes, Some People are born to go to hell, they are called in scripture vessels of wrath fitted for destruction rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:Pharaoh was given as an example of one of "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom 9:17). Was he born as a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction? That's not what it says. It talks about the Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart, which He did in order to "shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.". It doesn't say He hardened Pharaoh's heart from birth. He hardened his heart after he had already made the Israelites his slaves and after he had already mistreated the Israelites for many years.


Also peter describes false teachers as made to be taken and destroyed, as brute beast are..2 pet 2:

12But these, as natural brute beasts,[B] made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The word made here is the greek word gennaō::

of men who fathered children

a) to be born

b) to be begotten

1) of women giving birth to childrenYou seem to have overlooked the beginning of the chapter.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Notice that it says they deny "the Lord that bought them". But you don't believe the Lord died for them, do you? He did. He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), but in order to have one's sin's forgiven one must accept Him and put their faith in Him rather than deny Him. Then notice that it says that they brought destruction upon themselves. So, it isn't that they were born to be destroyed, they brought it upon themselves by denying the Lord that bought them.

John146
Mar 16th 2010, 07:07 PM
Its God that hardens... not man...

but there are those that will believe that 'man' is in control of the Potter and that the Potter is 'subject' onto the man...

Not the Case...

Its God that hardens.... and He softens...the heart...

He can do what every He pleases with the 'clay'..If man cannot harden his own heart then why does it say this:

Heb 3
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

And this:

Prov 28:14 Happy is the man that feareth alway: but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief.

pekoe
Mar 16th 2010, 10:31 PM
posted by anthony57
Yes, Some People are born to go to hell, they are called in scripture vessels of wrath fitted for destruction rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


God does not create one person to go to hell. The reason "God endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath" is so that they might repent. God gives every person more than enough chances to repent. Ro.2:4, 2 Pe.3:9,15



Also peter describes false teachers as made to be taken and destroyed, as brute beast are..2 pet 2:
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

People are destroyed because they choose not to turn to God.



"If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." Jer.18:8



The word made here is the greek word gennaō::
of men who fathered children
a) to be born
b) to be begotten
1) of women giving birth to children
The same word is used of judas here Matt 26:
24The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! [B]it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
So those peter describes were born to be taken and destroyed...and if its true of them, its true of others..
Peter is referring to false prophets who were among the Israelites and will be in the church (vs.1), the people that Noah preached to (vs.5), Sodom and Gomorrah (vs.6), These are the "brute beasts". Peter infers it is possible for them to escape through the knowledge of Christ. (vs.20) Salvation is offered to all people, regardless of what they have done. God is able to forgive any sin, no matter what it is and it is His desire to forgive sins. The choice is up to each person.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." Jn.3:17

And Yes MaryFreeman, Jn.3 says it all!

pekoe
Mar 16th 2010, 11:17 PM
posted by anthony57

That cannot be True, or it would not make sense to say God hardened someones Heart..which scripture does say..
deut 2:30
But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

"God hardens hearts" means people are hardened by the their own thoughts of God. Do you understand? "Just thinking of God makes me feel obstinate!" This is what it means. It doesn't mean God won't let people repent.


This scripture with the reference of pharoah are scriptural evidences that God first hardens ones heart, and of course as a consequence, one cannot but harden their own heart, for who can resist His will ?

Look back at Ro.9:15. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." This is Gods will.

"Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion?...." Is.1:6

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. Is.1:18

If God creates people to go to hell with no opportunity for salvation, there is no sense in asking why people rebell or asking them to reason with Him.

pekoe
Mar 16th 2010, 11:43 PM
posted by theBelovedDisciple

Its God that hardens... not man...
Not the way you think.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
Eze.33:11

It is Gods will for people to turn from wickedness.


but there are those that will believe that 'man' is in control of the Potter and that the Potter is 'subject' onto the man...
If people repent, it doesn't mean they are "in control" of God.


Not the Case...Its God that hardens.... and He softens...the heart..He can do what every He pleases with the 'clay'..
Again, the design of God is that the repentant will be vessels of honor and the unrepentant will be vessels of dishonor. This is His will. It's not that God is purposely shaping people just to destroy them.

"But in agreat house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." 2 Tim.2:20-21

anthony57
Mar 17th 2010, 01:31 AM
the beloved disc:


You seem to have overlooked the beginning of the chapter.

No I have not, for they were not actually bought with the blood of Christ, but only made a profession to be as those who actually were bought..

They as Jude describes, crept in unawares making a false profession Jude 1:

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word crept is the greek word pareisdy(n)ō:


to enter secretly, slip in stealthily

2) to steal in

Now how would they do that ? By claiming to be believers, and then the ironic thing is, they turned around and denied Him, whom they claimed bought them, thus exposing themselves as frauds.. for they never were new creatures in Christ, thats why peter says of them on down this:

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

They were always the beast, the dogs, that they were born to be vs 12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

So it seems, you did not take all what was written about them in vs 1, its always good to read the whole chapter to get a better understanding as a whole, I believe you took the very first verse, and went with it, and neglected every verse thereafter...

anthony57
Mar 17th 2010, 01:33 AM
pek:



God hardens hearts" means people are hardened by the their own thoughts of God


No, God hardens hearts means that God hardens hearts..

pekoe
Mar 17th 2010, 01:50 AM
posted by anthony
No, God hardens hearts means that God hardens hearts..
Anthony, instead of slandering Gods character by picking one or two verses out of a passage, why don't you look at the entire context of what is being said? Romans 9 is believers vs. unbelievers, not those God allowed to repent vs. those He wouldn't

anthony57
Mar 17th 2010, 02:11 AM
pek:


Anthony, instead of slandering Gods character

Nothing slandering about standing for the Truth of Gods word.. God hardens hearts..

Rom 9:18

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

pekoe
Mar 17th 2010, 02:21 AM
posted by anthony57
Nothing slandering about standing for the Truth of Gods word.. God hardens hearts..
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
You most certainly are speaking something about God that is not right. Try going back to the beginning of the chapter.

anthony57
Mar 17th 2010, 02:51 AM
pek:


You most certainly are speaking something about God that is not right

Your beef is with the scripture I share..

rom 9:18

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

John146
Mar 17th 2010, 05:32 PM
No I have not, for they were not actually bought with the blood of Christ, but only made a profession to be as those who actually were bought..It says the Lord bought them. Why are you trying to act as if it doesn't say that?


Now how would they do that ? By claiming to be believers, and then the ironic thing is, they turned around and denied Him, whom they claimed bought them, thus exposing themselves as frauds.. for they never were new creatures in Christ, thats why peter says of them on down this:It doesn't say they claimed He bought them. It says He bought them. You appear to be attempting to just explain that away. You also did not address the fact that verse 1 says they bring destruction upon themselves. But you try to say that God made them to be destroyed which would mean God alone would be responsible for destruction being brought upon them rather than those false teachers themselves being responsible for bringing destruction upon themselves due to denying the Lord that bought them.


20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

They were always the beast, the dogs, that they were born to be vs 12If that was the case then how could any of them "have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" in the first place? And if they were created to be that way then why would it be that if "they are again entangled therein, and overcome" that they would be worse off than before having "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"?


So it seems, you did not take all what was written about them in vs 1, its always good to read the whole chapter to get a better understanding as a whole, I believe you took the very first verse, and went with it, and neglected every verse thereafter...That is absolutely false.

John146
Mar 17th 2010, 05:36 PM
pek:



Nothing slandering about standing for the Truth of Gods word.. God hardens hearts..

Rom 9:18

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.Yes, God hardens hearts, but are you, like another poster did earlier, trying to claim that only God hardens hearts and people don't harden their own hearts? If so, then explain these passages:

Heb 3
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Prov 28:14 Happy is the man that feareth alway: but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief.

pekoe
Mar 18th 2010, 12:49 AM
posted by anthony57
Your beef is with the scripture I share..
No friend. My beef is with the misinterpretation of the scripture you're sharing, which defames the God who loves me.

From this moment on, I will answer every point you make in defense of your position and you will answer mine. Deal?

anthony57
Mar 18th 2010, 02:47 AM
pek:


No friend. My beef is with the misinterpretation of the scripture you're sharing

No, your beef is with Gods word, not me !

anthony57
Mar 18th 2010, 02:58 AM
john146:



Yes, God hardens hearts, but are you, like another poster did earlier, trying to claim that only God hardens hearts and people don't harden their own hearts? If so, then explain these passages:



A person hardens their own heart as a result of God first hardening their heart..That is Illustrated with pharoah, He had no other choice but to harden his own heart after God first said He was going to harden his heart..

God said that in ex 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

and then later it reads:

ex 7:13

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Now pharoah is said to harden his heart ex 8:15

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

It was because as the LORD said, so pharoah hardening his own heart is the direct effect of God hardening his heart, for who can resist Gods power ?

anthony57
Mar 18th 2010, 03:14 AM
john146:


It says the Lord bought them.

But He didn't, that was their profession that He did. The fact that they denied Him proved they were liars, I showed you that by going over the rest of the verses in the passage.

Let me give you an example, lets say a master buys some servants and some how one who he did not buy, slips into the group with the others. Then later, the one who slipped in, and had been identifying with the ones who the master bought, this one begins talking against the master. Well those who hear this says, why are you talking against the master that bought you ? The Ideal is that he was not actually bought but crept in unawares jude 1:

4For there are certain men crept in unawares

How do they do this ? Simple, by professing a faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as it is indicated later in the passage 2 pet 2:


20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The person simply was never a new creature in Christ, this is the obvious conclusion, now I am not going to keep debating this issue which is so plain to one with understanding..

pekoe
Mar 18th 2010, 03:22 AM
Hey anthony,
Do you hear what you're saying? Do you really believe God had to harden Pharaohs heart the way you believe He did, so that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go? Think about this! Seriously! The brothers of slaves (Moses and Aaron) go to the King of Egypt and demand he let his slaves go.

So, in your view, if God didn't harden the kings heart as you understand the meaning of the passage, the king would have let them go. God had to do some act, or the most powerful man in Egypt would have obeyed Moses (who at the time was a nothing.) Is that it? Without Gods prodding, the king would have cowered before a slave. Make sense?

anthony57
Mar 18th 2010, 04:27 AM
pek:


Hey anthony,
Do you hear what you're saying?

The issue is, do you hear what God's word is saying ?

ex 4:


God said that in ex 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

pekoe
Mar 18th 2010, 01:02 PM
posted by anthony57The issue is, do you hear what God's word is saying ?
ex 4:
God said that in ex 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Yes, I hear what Gods word is saying. Now read the passage where Pharaohs heart was hardened and you will see that his heart was hardened by circumstance, not by God refusing to let him repent.

Moses first request was met by this answer;

"And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go." Ex.5:2

A typical resonse, right? Something you would expect an unbelieving king to say without God having to "harden his heart." Do you agree, or not?

Later, Moses shows Pharaoh a sign. God turns Aarons staff into a snake, but Pharaohs wise men do the same thing and his "heart is hardened."
"Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.....And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." Ex.7:11,13

Then, God turns the river to blood, but the magicians of Pharaoh do the same and "his heart is hardened."

"And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said." Ex.7:22

God also "hardened his heart" through respite.

"But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." Ex.8:15

Pharaoh hardened his own heart through the circumstances God set up. Do you understand this? God did not enter Pharaohs mind and prevent him from letting the people go.

pekoe
Mar 18th 2010, 02:14 PM
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim.2:3-4

anthony57
Mar 18th 2010, 02:59 PM
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim.2:3-4

All elect men, of the Jew and Gentile !

anthony57
Mar 18th 2010, 03:00 PM
pek:


Yes, I hear what Gods word is saying.

What is He saying ?

anthony57
Mar 18th 2010, 03:03 PM
pek:


"And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go." Ex.5:2

Uh, excuse me, It was in chapter 4 when God said:

ex 4:


21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Pharoah had no choice but to harden his heart since God hardened it...

Firstfruits
Mar 18th 2010, 04:09 PM
According to the following scripture, before we come and put our faith in Jesus we are all condemned to perish in the lake of fire. This applies to all. Only by coming to Jesus does this change. This is by faith in Jesus, which is promised to all that believe.

Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Firstfruits

pekoe
Mar 18th 2010, 04:36 PM
posted by anthony57
All elect men, of the Jew and Gentile !
No anthony. Gods desire is for all people to be saved. To change it to say God desires "All elect men, of the Jew and Gentile" to be saved is redundant.

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life....For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jn.3:15,17

Does "whosoever" and "the world" mean the elect to you also?

What you believe about God is without doubt the most foolish doctrine in all of Christendom. When you speak about Gods character, you better put your hand over your mouth.

pekoe
Mar 18th 2010, 05:13 PM
posted by anthony57
Uh, excuse me, It was in chapter 4 when God said:....
Yes, I know. Now go to the following chapters to see just how God "hardened Pharaohs heart."

You will find that it was through circumstances, not mind control.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 18th 2010, 10:53 PM
No anthony. Gods desire is for all people to be saved. To change it to say God desires "All elect men, of the Jew and Gentile" to be saved is redundant.

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life....For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jn.3:15,17

Does "whosoever" and "the world" mean the elect to you also?

What you believe about God is without doubt the most foolish doctrine in all of Christendom. When you speak about Gods character, you better put your hand over your mouth.


do you believe that 'all men' will be saved in the end?

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 18th 2010, 10:56 PM
Yes, I know. Now go to the following chapters to see just how God "hardened Pharaohs heart."

You will find that it was through circumstances, not mind control.

God doesnt use mind control to harden..

He uses circumstances...

HOWEVER,

He is the One In Control of the Cirucumstances....whether He allows them to come to pass or not...

He is the Source.. and He can use many different things..

on the opposite end.. He can use cirucumstances to 'soften' a man's heart ...

as Job Saith...

For God maketh my heart soft.....

I don't know where your getting 'mind control'.. unless your steeped in the theology of the 'power of postiive thinking'...

Butch5
Mar 18th 2010, 11:29 PM
Yes, I hear what Gods word is saying. Now read the passage where Pharaohs heart was hardened and you will see that his heart was hardened by circumstance, not by God refusing to let him repent.

Moses first request was met by this answer;

"And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go." Ex.5:2

A typical resonse, right? Something you would expect an unbelieving king to say without God having to "harden his heart." Do you agree, or not?

Later, Moses shows Pharaoh a sign. God turns Aarons staff into a snake, but Pharaohs wise men do the same thing and his "heart is hardened."
"Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.....And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." Ex.7:11,13

Then, God turns the river to blood, but the magicians of Pharaoh do the same and "his heart is hardened."

"And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said." Ex.7:22

God also "hardened his heart" through respite.

"But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." Ex.8:15

Pharaoh hardened his own heart through the circumstances God set up. Do you understand this? God did not enter Pharaohs mind and prevent him from letting the people go.

You are correct, Pharaoh was already evil, God didn't have to make him that way. The hardening by God was just to serve His purpose.

pekoe
Mar 19th 2010, 02:29 AM
posted by theBelovedDisciple
do you believe that 'all men' will be saved in the end?
No.


I don't know where your getting 'mind control'.. unless your steeped in the theology of the 'power of postiive thinking'...
I'm not a fan of the positive thinking crowd. I'm getting the "mind control" thing from the heretical teaching that God selects individual people for salvation or damnation, regardless of mans free will.

The idea that God only soverignly gives grace to some so they can be saved and withholds it from others so they will be damned is repulsive to me and I count it slander against the loving God who gave Jesus to the entire world.

pekoe
Mar 19th 2010, 02:42 AM
Hi Butch5

The hardening by God was just to serve His purpose.
That's right. That God knew how Pharaoh was going to react doesn't mean God made him act that way. Pharaoh chose to rebel against God of his own free will. The same is true of Jacob and Esau. People take "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" (Ro.9:13) to mean that God chose to damn Esau with no way out. The truth is, God knew beforehand that Esau would despise his birthright.

Firstfruits
Mar 19th 2010, 10:24 AM
Who is not included in the "Whosoever will" in the following?

Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mk 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Does it not apply to all?

Firstfruits

pekoe
Mar 19th 2010, 12:02 PM
Who is not included in the "Whosoever will" in the following?

Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mk 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Does it not apply to all?

Firstfruits
How excellent is this teaching?!!

anthony57
Mar 19th 2010, 12:40 PM
firstfruits:


Who is not included in the "Whosoever will" in the following?

Those whosoever will not do those things mentioned in the following.

anthony57
Mar 19th 2010, 12:47 PM
pek:



Yes, I know. Now go to the following chapters to see just how God "hardened Pharaohs heart."



He hardened him by His power.. rom 9:17

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God said I will harden pharoah heart Ex 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

pharoah had no choice but to harden his own heart since God hardened his heart first, who can resist Gods power ?

rom 9:

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Your argument is just like those paul delt with in His day, no different.

Firstfruits
Mar 19th 2010, 01:14 PM
pek:



He hardened him by His power.. rom 9:17

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God said I will harden pharoah heart Ex 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

pharoah had no choice but to harden his own heart since God hardened his heart first, who can resist Gods power ?

rom 9:

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Your argument is just like those paul delt with in His day, no different.

How does what happened with Pharoah compare to the gospel of Christ?

Is the gospel not for all men?

Mk 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

When we were in our sins and condemned to the lake of fire as are all men without Jesus, was it not by the gospel by which we are called to salvation.

2 Thess 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If we choose to ignore the gospel then we shall perish, if we choose to obey the gospel we shall be saved.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 19th 2010, 03:01 PM
firstfruit:


Is the gospel not for all men?

Yes, but for different Divine purposes, it is for the vessels of mercy, life unto life, and it is for the vessels of wrath death unto death..

2 cor 2:

15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

God hardens some with the Gospel and converts some with the gospel..either way, Gods Gospel is to be preached to all..

Firstfruits
Mar 19th 2010, 03:14 PM
firstfruit:



Yes, but for different Divine purposes, it is for the vessels of mercy, life unto life, and it is for the vessels of wrath death unto death..

2 cor 2:

15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

God hardens some with the Gospel and converts some with the gospel..either way, Gods Gospel is to be preached to all..

Where in scripture does God harden some with the gospel with regards to the following?

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

The choice is to believe or not to believe.

Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those who choose not to believe the gospel will perish.

According to the following it is Satan that blinds those that do not believe.

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Firstfruits

WELL
Mar 19th 2010, 06:51 PM
Yes, I agree it sounds wrong and illogical, but I see that Rom 9[speaking of God electing], does not at all go along the lines of logical. Gos's choice may never ever seem logical to our minds, but the great thing about Him is this: He knows what He is doing!

WELL
Mar 19th 2010, 06:55 PM
Where in scripture does God harden some with the gospel with regards to the following?

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

The choice is to believe or not to believe.

Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those who choose not to believe the gospel will perish.

According to the following it is Satan that blinds those that do not believe.

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Firstfruits

Yes, these are good scriptures to use, but when any scripture is used, it is always in the light of His word, which is HE is even holding satan on a leash, as see elsewhere and in Job. He truly is the ruler/King over all!

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 19th 2010, 10:59 PM
Yes, I agree it sounds wrong and illogical, but I see that Rom 9[speaking of God electing], does not at all go along the lines of logical. Gos's choice may never ever seem logical to our minds, but the great thing about Him is this: He knows what He is doing!

Amen and amen to that statement...

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 19th 2010, 11:19 PM
pharoah had no choice but to harden his own heart since God hardened his heart first, who can resist Gods power ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why would pharoah have to 'harden' his own heart after God had already done it????????:confused:confused:confused:confused

it wasn't Pharoah hardening 'his own heart'.. but it was God thru the Process. and who was in control of the Process?

God Himself... God was the Source of the Hardening...

what you state makes it sound like God is at the 'beckoning call of man'... God is dependent on the 'will of man to have His Will come to pass'.....

and this is what your statement says...
-----------------------------------------------------

Pharoah didn't harden his own heart'...

God Himself did that.. God was never at the beckoning call of Pharoah 'waiting for Pharoah to harden his heart himself... God did it..

God is not depdent on the 'will of man' to see His Will and Foreknowledge Thru..

He is in Control of all things.. and yes.. this even the 'clay vessels'.. those that will go unto Eternal Life and Glorification.. and those vessels of wrath.. which will spend Eternity away from His Presense in eternal torment..


a man centered salvation.. has God depdendent on the will of man to make sure what He has said in His Word will come to Pass... having God at the beckoning call of man.. as if God is sitting in Heaven.. shuddering.. as man tells God what to do and that those things won't come to pass unless he/she sees fit and its in their time frame....

you have a God in Heaven who is weak and unable to get what He needs to get done .. and at the beckoning and will of man.. in order to get His Will Accomplished.. this is what many have been led to believe.. by the numerous gospels that are out there preached today...

cant you see the rebellion in that type of gospel and psuedo salvation..

its very dangerous.. but in these last days.. it will be the belief system that will propel this planet into a time like 'no other'.. as Jesus states... the time of Jacobs Trouble...

a time like no other this planet has ever seen... the Hour of Trial.. to come upon them that dwell on the earth...

he that hath ears let him hear..

Sirus
Mar 20th 2010, 12:23 AM
Yes, I agree it sounds wrong and illogical, but I see that Rom 9[speaking of God electing], does not at all go along the lines of logical. Gos's choice may never ever seem logical to our minds, but the great thing about Him is this: He knows what He is doing!What's not logical about it? It is perfectly logical in context of the passage, the OT references used, and other passages concerning election.

pekoe
Mar 20th 2010, 01:50 AM
posted by anthony
He hardened him by His power.. rom 9:17
No He didn't. That's not what the scripture says at all.


For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

"Show My power in you" refers to the plagues God brought upon Egypt, not God "hardening Pharaohs heart." Gods name was magnified to the surrounding nations by the plagues Egypt experienced.

"For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth." Ex.9:15-16


God said I will harden pharoah heart Ex 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Right. I've already explained how God hardened his heart. You don't want to read the whole passages describing what this means. Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

"As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?" Ex.9:17


pharoah had no choice but to harden his own heart since God hardened his heart first, who can resist Gods power ?

People always have a choice. That is common sense. To deny this would mean that God forced Pharaoh to sin againt Him, which is devoid of all Biblical reasoning.


rom 9:
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Your argument is just like those paul delt with in His day, no different.

I'm not asking that question because I understand from the text of Romans 9 what Gods will is. You do not. If you would like me to teach it to you I will.

anthony57
Mar 20th 2010, 02:11 AM
pek:


No He didn't. That's not what the scripture says at all.

Yes He did, and the scripture no where denies it.

anthony57
Mar 20th 2010, 02:13 AM
thebeloved:



why would pharoah have to 'harden' his own heart after God had already done it????????:confused:confused:confused:confused



To make manifest that He could only do what God did to him.

anthony57
Mar 20th 2010, 02:21 AM
firstfruit:


Where in scripture does God harden some with the gospel with regards to the following?


Thats what death unto death implies, when the gospel is preached to spiritually dead and harden people, it hardens them more, to confirm them in their death..

Life unto Life, when the Gospel is preached to spiritually alive people is makes manifest their spiritual life by conversion..

God is known to send His word for the purpose of blinding people isa 6:

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


Gods purpose in sending the gospel to the spiritual dead is to increase their guilt for the day of Judgment.

Sirus
Mar 20th 2010, 03:25 AM
Gods purpose in sending the gospel to the spiritual dead is to increase their guilt for the day of Judgment.Scripture says they were already w/o excuse, turned over three times, and treasure up to themselves wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God because of their hardness and impenitent heart. God did not need the gospel to increase their guilt, else those that do not hear the gospel have excuse.

anthony57
Mar 20th 2010, 04:43 AM
sirus:


Scripture says they were already w/o excuse

Who said they were not ?

I said God sends them the gospel to increase their guilt, its one thing to be condemned by nature's revelation of God, and then the Gospel revelation..

Those who die without hearing the gospel will be less guilty than those who did.

Sirus
Mar 20th 2010, 11:28 AM
sirus:

I said God sends them the gospel to increase their guilt, its one thing to be condemned by nature's revelation of God, and then the Gospel revelation..

Those who die without hearing the gospel will be less guilty than those who did.We are asking for scripture that says,

"God sends them the gospel to increase their guilt"
We have scripture that says "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men". That His will is not "that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.".

So again, where is scripture that says.......
Gods purpose in sending the gospel to the spiritual dead is to increase their guilt for the day of Judgment.

Sirus
Mar 20th 2010, 11:39 AM
when the gospel is preached to spiritually dead and harden people, it hardens them more, to confirm them in their death..Why the need for confirmation?


Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


God is known to send His word for the purpose of blinding people isa 6:

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Yes, and He did so because of their own blindness and unbelief.
Mat 13:11-15
Mar 4:11-12
Luk 8:10

Butch5
Mar 20th 2010, 12:16 PM
Yes, I agree it sounds wrong and illogical, but I see that Rom 9[speaking of God electing], does not at all go along the lines of logical. Gos's choice may never ever seem logical to our minds, but the great thing about Him is this: He knows what He is doing!

God's election is logical when understood in context. Romans 9 is about the election of the Jews as people.

anthony57
Mar 20th 2010, 02:41 PM
God's election is logical when understood in context. Romans 9 is about the election of the Jews as people.

No its not about the election of the jews as a people, in fact its a answer as to why all ethnic jews are not the elect of God, only a remnant within national Israel were actually the elect of God unto salvation.. rom 9:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

anthony57
Mar 20th 2010, 02:46 PM
Why the need for confirmation?


Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Yes, and He did so because of their own blindness and unbelief.
Mat 13:11-15
Mar 4:11-12
Luk 8:10

All are in blindeness and unbelief by nature, So God chooses to confirm the non elect in their unbelief and hardness, for He is actively against their conversion..

Jn 12:

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

They could not not believe [ by Divine Purpose] so the effect is they would not believe..

They had not the ability to believe because God would not let them believe, His purpose was to destroy them as vessels of wrath..

anthony57
Mar 20th 2010, 02:47 PM
sirus:



Why the need for confirmation?


Because He wanted to..and He added more guilt to their resume for their punishment.

Butch5
Mar 20th 2010, 04:20 PM
No its not about the election of the jews as a people, in fact its a answer as to why all ethnic jews are not the elect of God, only a remnant within national Israel were actually the elect of God unto salvation.. rom 9:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Paul may be speaking of a remnant, however, as we see in the verse you quoted it is in reference to Israel. "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" Paul says nothing here about the Gentiles.

Butch5
Mar 20th 2010, 04:22 PM
All are in blindeness and unbelief by nature, So God chooses to confirm the non elect in their unbelief and hardness, for He is actively against their conversion..

Jn 12:

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

They could not not believe [ by Divine Purpose] so the effect is they would not believe..

They had not the ability to believe because God would not let them believe, His purpose was to destroy them as vessels of wrath..

My friend, you have this passage out of context.

Sirus
Mar 20th 2010, 06:37 PM
All are in blindeness and unbelief by nature, So God chooses to confirm the non elect in their unbelief and hardness, for He is actively against their conversion..

Jn 12:

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

They could not not believe [ by Divine Purpose] so the effect is they would not believe..

They had not the ability to believe because God would not let them believe, His purpose was to destroy them as vessels of wrath..Really? Why didn't Jesus start out speaking in parables? Why did He come offering them, and them only, the kingdom and not speak in parables until after they rejected Him and put John in prison (the time is fulfilled)? You got it backwards. Jesus said they could believe if He did not speak in parables, and that He spoke in parables because they were blind. It does not say God blinded them first. It says God blinded them because of unbelief. This is how God worked from Genesis forward. God is not unjust to blind then damn. It says He is just because we all sin our own sin against Him.

Sirus
Mar 20th 2010, 06:42 PM
sirus:

Because He wanted to..and He added more guilt to their resume for their punishment.God does not just whistle in the wind. He is a God of purpose, showing His love mercy and grace to all. If God "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"
He could not have caused it.

WELL
Mar 20th 2010, 06:54 PM
pharoah had no choice but to harden his own heart since God hardened his heart first, who can resist Gods power ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why would pharoah have to 'harden' his own heart after God had already done it????????:confused:confused:confused:confused

it wasn't Pharoah hardening 'his own heart'.. but it was God thru the Process. and who was in control of the Process?

God Himself... God was the Source of the Hardening...

what you state makes it sound like God is at the 'beckoning call of man'... God is dependent on the 'will of man to have His Will come to pass'.....

and this is what your statement says...
-----------------------------------------------------

Pharoah didn't harden his own heart'...

God Himself did that.. God was never at the beckoning call of Pharoah 'waiting for Pharoah to harden his heart himself... God did it..

God is not depdent on the 'will of man' to see His Will and Foreknowledge Thru..

He is in Control of all things.. and yes.. this even the 'clay vessels'.. those that will go unto Eternal Life and Glorification.. and those vessels of wrath.. which will spend Eternity away from His Presense in eternal torment..


a man centered salvation.. has God depdendent on the will of man to make sure what He has said in His Word will come to Pass... having God at the beckoning call of man.. as if God is sitting in Heaven.. shuddering.. as man tells God what to do and that those things won't come to pass unless he/she sees fit and its in their time frame....

you have a God in Heaven who is weak and unable to get what He needs to get done .. and at the beckoning and will of man.. in order to get His Will Accomplished.. this is what many have been led to believe.. by the numerous gospels that are out there preached today...

cant you see the rebellion in that type of gospel and psuedo salvation..

its very dangerous.. but in these last days.. it will be the belief system that will propel this planet into a time like 'no other'.. as Jesus states... the time of Jacobs Trouble...

a time like no other this planet has ever seen... the Hour of Trial.. to come upon them that dwell on the earth...

he that hath ears let him hear..


Beautiful, clear, plain and straight forward.

And when this hour of trail comes, or any hour of trial, we need to trust in King that IS in complete control, not in part control!

pekoe
Mar 20th 2010, 10:44 PM
posted by anthony57
Yes He did, and the scripture no where denies it.
I (and others) have quoted many scriptures that deny it, scriptures you have completely ignored because there is no way for you to reconcile them with your heresy that God damns people without offering them hope of escape.

pekoe
Mar 20th 2010, 11:43 PM
Can anyone who believes that God desires to condemn people explain the following?

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." Eze.18:32

Why does God want people to repent and live if it is His desire to condemn them?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Why does Jesus say that He desired to gather Israel but they would not come to Him?

pekoe
Mar 20th 2010, 11:53 PM
Beautiful, clear, plain and straight forward.
One of the biggest examples of heretical teaching I have ever seen, but one that at least explains why this foolishness got started.

Butch5
Mar 21st 2010, 01:24 AM
pharoah had no choice but to harden his own heart since God hardened his heart first, who can resist Gods power ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why would pharoah have to 'harden' his own heart after God had already done it????????:confused:confused:confused:confused

it wasn't Pharoah hardening 'his own heart'.. but it was God thru the Process. and who was in control of the Process?

God Himself... God was the Source of the Hardening...

what you state makes it sound like God is at the 'beckoning call of man'... God is dependent on the 'will of man to have His Will come to pass'.....

and this is what your statement says...
-----------------------------------------------------

Pharoah didn't harden his own heart'...

God Himself did that.. God was never at the beckoning call of Pharoah 'waiting for Pharoah to harden his heart himself... God did it..

God is not depdent on the 'will of man' to see His Will and Foreknowledge Thru..

He is in Control of all things.. and yes.. this even the 'clay vessels'.. those that will go unto Eternal Life and Glorification.. and those vessels of wrath.. which will spend Eternity away from His Presense in eternal torment..


a man centered salvation.. has God depdendent on the will of man to make sure what He has said in His Word will come to Pass... having God at the beckoning call of man.. as if God is sitting in Heaven.. shuddering.. as man tells God what to do and that those things won't come to pass unless he/she sees fit and its in their time frame....

you have a God in Heaven who is weak and unable to get what He needs to get done .. and at the beckoning and will of man.. in order to get His Will Accomplished.. this is what many have been led to believe.. by the numerous gospels that are out there preached today...

cant you see the rebellion in that type of gospel and psuedo salvation..

its very dangerous.. but in these last days.. it will be the belief system that will propel this planet into a time like 'no other'.. as Jesus states... the time of Jacobs Trouble...

a time like no other this planet has ever seen... the Hour of Trial.. to come upon them that dwell on the earth...

he that hath ears let him hear..


I've not seen anyone on this forum proposing such a teaching as you have supposed here.

John146
Mar 21st 2010, 04:00 AM
john146:


A person hardens their own heart as a result of God first hardening their heart..That is not taught in scripture.


That is Illustrated with pharoah, He had no other choice but to harden his own heart after God first said He was going to harden his heart..

God said that in ex 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

and then later it reads:

ex 7:13

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Now pharoah is said to harden his heart ex 8:15

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

It was because as the LORD said, so pharoah hardening his own heart is the direct effect of God hardening his heart, for who can resist Gods power ?


Surely, Pharaoh's heart was hardened even before God first hardened his heart for the purpose of him not letting the people go. Why do you think the Israelites were made slaves in the first place? Didn't that have something to do with Pharaoh's hardened heart towards God and His people? Sure it did.

John146
Mar 21st 2010, 04:19 AM
Hi Butch5

That's right. That God knew how Pharaoh was going to react doesn't mean God made him act that way. Pharaoh chose to rebel against God of his own free will.Absolutely.


The same is true of Jacob and Esau. People take "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" (Ro.9:13) to mean that God chose to damn Esau with no way out. The truth is, God knew beforehand that Esau would despise his birthright.Actually, in the case of the mention of Jacob and Esau and the elder serving the younger and so on, that relates not to Jacob and Esau as individuals, but to the nations they represented (Israel and Edom).

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

So, the reference to Jacob and Esau in Romans 9:13 has absolutely nothing to do with God predetermining that Jacob would be saved and Esau would be condemned.

John146
Mar 21st 2010, 04:25 AM
Who is not included in the "Whosoever will" in the following?

Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mk 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Does it not apply to all?

FirstfruitsYes, it does. Unfortunately, we're dealing with an opposing doctrine that promotes the concept of the church being like an elite country club with only some people being allowed entry with everyone else not even having a chance to be part of it. But the parable of the wedding invitation (Matt 22:1-14) shows that all people are invited. All people are offered salvation, but it is only those who accept it by believing in Christ who obtain it.

John146
Mar 21st 2010, 04:43 AM
Life unto Life, when the Gospel is preached to spiritually alive people is makes manifest their spiritual life by conversion..What in the world does this mean and where is it taught in scripture? Christ said that He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. The gospel is preached to sinners who are not spiritually alive. That's why they need to hear the gospel, so that they can then believe it and become saved and made spiritually alive. Can one be considered to be spiritually alive witout the Holy Spirit dwelling in them? I don't believe so. Well, the following scripture shows that the receiving of the Holy Spirit comes after faith, not before.

Acts 10
42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

This passage shows that people are saved and have their sins forigven upon receiving the Holy Spirit, which follows faith. But you have people somehow already being spiritually alive before they are saved.

Sirus
Mar 21st 2010, 04:47 AM
pharoah had no choice but to harden his own heart since God hardened his heart first, who can resist Gods power ?If you are talking about this.....

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
You need to read the preceding verses......

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
The will that could not be resisted was Christ coming in the flesh through Israel (Jacob). God made Esau and Jacob of the 'same lump'. Esau despised the covenant blessings (vessel unto dishonour) and Jacob desired the covenant blessings (vessel unto honour). He had the foreknowledge and power to choose between them based on their actions before they were born (election is according to foreknowledge).

Notice it starts with an OT quote to Moses concerning what God would do with rebellious Israel (v15). His purpose to bring Christ in the flesh was more important than satisfying His wrath.

Then it goes into how God showed His power in order to declare His name to the world through Pharaoh and deliver Israel into the promised land Christ had to be born in and bring Christ in the flesh.

This is not some random verse to pull out and use contrary to ALL scripture to show God has power to make any man what He wants them to be. We need to understand what is being said through context. Even if God did in fact arbitrarily use His power in a few instances it was under special circumstances and does not set a precedence for how God deals with all mankind. You simply will not find it taught in scripture.

John146
Mar 21st 2010, 04:52 AM
I've not seen anyone on this forum proposing such a teaching as you have supposed here.Me neither, so I'd say that means he was making a straw man argument. It isn't that we believe God depends on man for salvation, it's that we believe God holds man responsible to choose repent and believe (and in your view to also be water baptized) in order to be saved. I don't see how God making man responsible means that salvation is man-centered. Jesus did all the hard work of salvation by dying on the cross for our sins. That God holds people responsible to believe that and believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior and in no way does that mean that salvation is man-centered. Salvation is very much God-centered but that doesn't mean man plays no part in it as if he has no responsibility.

anthony57
Mar 21st 2010, 06:39 AM
jn 14


What in the world does this mean and where is it taught in scripture?

2 cor 2:

14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place.

15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

16 To the one [non elect] we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other [elect] the aroma of life leading to life.

anthony57
Mar 21st 2010, 06:44 AM
jn 14:


That is not taught in scripture.

Yes it is, you just do not believe it.


Surely, Pharaoh's heart was hardened even before God first hardened his heart for the purpose of him not letting the people go.

God said:

ex 4:


21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go

Butch5
Mar 21st 2010, 05:22 PM
Me neither, so I'd say that means he was making a straw man argument. It isn't that we believe God depends on man for salvation, it's that we believe God holds man responsible to choose repent and believe (and in your view to also be water baptized) in order to be saved. I don't see how God making man responsible means that salvation is man-centered. Jesus did all the hard work of salvation by dying on the cross for our sins. That God holds people responsible to believe that and believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior and in no way does that mean that salvation is man-centered. Salvation is very much God-centered but that doesn't mean man plays no part in it as if he has no responsibility.

I agree Eric, i think you hit on the key point, responsibility. If man has no responsibility then it doesn't really matter how he lives. I think this gives many Christians a false sense of security when they partake of the world.

Firstfruits
Mar 22nd 2010, 09:22 AM
Yes, it does. Unfortunately, we're dealing with an opposing doctrine that promotes the concept of the church being like an elite country club with only some people being allowed entry with everyone else not even having a chance to be part of it. But the parable of the wedding invitation (Matt 22:1-14) shows that all people are invited. All people are offered salvation, but it is only those who accept it by believing in Christ who obtain it.

Agreed,

God bless You!

Firstfruits

WELL
Mar 22nd 2010, 10:10 AM
I agree Eric, i think you hit on the key point, responsibility. If man has no responsibility then it doesn't really matter how he lives. I think this gives many Christians a false sense of security when they partake of the world.

On a lighter note, can someone change the poor guy banging his head, he's now got a headache!

Any truth can only come to us by by Gods intervention. Faith too is a gift from God. One day when I stand before, I don t want to tell Him of How good I was , and how much faith I managed to build up into my account.

I want to stand before Him empty handed, and say, it's all because of you Lord, my life, my faith, my breath, it's all because of YOU Lord!
Jn 15:16 `Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you,

WELL
Mar 22nd 2010, 10:15 AM
[QUOTE=Sirus;2371296]

Notice it starts with an OT quote to Moses concerning what God would do with rebellious Israel (v15). His purpose to bring Christ in the flesh was more important than satisfying His wrath.

QUOTE]

Just a little note here. Christ in the flesh was to satisfy God's wrath, that the MAIN reason why He came!

Firstfruits
Mar 22nd 2010, 02:29 PM
Has the criteria changed for salvation?

Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 22nd 2010, 03:29 PM
If God saves only thoses he chooses to save, then does that not mean that the following scripture is incorrect?

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 22nd 2010, 06:09 PM
If God saves only thoses he chooses to save, then does that not mean that the following scripture is incorrect?

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Firstfruits

2 pet 3 9 is referring to the elect, the us-ward.. The us-ward are the beloved of God vs 8


8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And the elect according to the foreknowledge of God as stated in 1 pet 1:


1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Thats logical since 2 pet is a continuation to the same recipients of 1 peter. So 2 pet 3 9 applies to the elect whom God is not willing to perish, because Jesus has already bore their punishment for their sins.

anthony57
Mar 22nd 2010, 06:11 PM
Has the criteria changed for salvation?

Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Firstfruits

I see no criteria stated in those verses, just plain statements being made, no imperatives in any of those verses.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 22nd 2010, 08:05 PM
2 pet 3 9 is referring to the elect, the us-ward.. The us-ward are the beloved of God vs 8


8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And the elect according to the foreknowledge of God as stated in 1 pet 1:


1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Thats logical since 2 pet is a continuation to the same recipients of 1 peter. So 2 pet 3 9 applies to the elect whom God is not willing to perish, because Jesus has already bore their punishment for their sins.


correct... Peter starts his letters... addressing the 'Elect' of God.... and his letter is directed at those... those who 'know' their Election... of God Himself...

LookingUp
Mar 22nd 2010, 09:48 PM
Can anyone who believes that God desires to condemn people explain the following?

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." Eze.18:32

Why does God want people to repent and live if it is His desire to condemn them?Did anyone answer your great question here? Why is God telling "anyone" to repent and live? Are those of you who oppose the view God desires to save ALL people, saying that God is lying or misleading us in this passage? Are you saying God is playing some kind of a game here?

Are you trying to tell us that God creates people to go to hell and then He begs them to repent and live, knowing all along He made them unable to repent?! Please think about what you're saying. Is this really the God revealed to us in Christ Jesus, who is the perfect expression of God’s character and will?


"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Why does Jesus say that He desired to gather Israel but they would not come to Him?Another awesome passage that reveals the heart of God. Christ Jesus is the Word made flesh who is God. God is telling us right here how He desired for these people to repent but THEY would not--they were unwilling.

This shows us that God's will can be thwarted (He does not always get His way) and it shows us that we can grieve God (He has feelings). God has defined Himself in Christ—this is who God is. Shouldn’t we allow God to define Himself the way He wants to? Just because God’s description of Himself doesn’t fit the idol some have created in their heads (i.e. “For God to be the kind of God I think sounds like God, He must control everyone & we can have no impact on His feelings”), doesn’t mean the picture they’ve created in their minds is correct. We humans equate emotions and a lack of control over others with weakness, which we assume is a negative attribute. As this passage reveals, God does not always get His way. Does this make Him weak?

Do you (those with this view) really think God’s omnipotence is threatened when He doesn’t get His way? Just because He is the source of all power doesn’t mean He feels the need to always exercise His power to remain true to His nature. As a matter of fact, surrendering His power is the very thing that displayed His power most perfectly when He went to the cross. What does strength look like? Look at Christ. Allow God to define what strength looks like. God’s omnipotence is not primarily displayed in sheer force but by allowing Himself to be beaten and put to death by sinners—what looked like weakness to humans was powerful and effective. God conquers evil and wins our hearts not by coercive force, but by self-sacrificial love.

We cheapen this sacrificial love when we say God died only for those He knew ahead of time would choose to love Him. He died for ALL—with the genuine hope that all would choose Him, because they always genuinely could. And those alive today, can still genuinely choose Him. God died for ALL sinners—those who chose Him and those who never chose Him; those who will choose Him and those who will never choose Him. That is sacrificial love.

Butch5
Mar 22nd 2010, 11:10 PM
On a lighter note, can someone change the poor guy banging his head, he's now got a headache!

Any truth can only come to us by by Gods intervention. Faith too is a gift from God. One day when I stand before, I don t want to tell Him of How good I was , and how much faith I managed to build up into my account.

I want to stand before Him empty handed, and say, it's all because of you Lord, my life, my faith, my breath, it's all because of YOU Lord!
Jn 15:16 `Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you,

Well, my friend, I suggest you read the parable of the talents. The man given one talent stood before the master and said here is your talent that you gave me I hid it for fear and have returned it to you, and his master said, cast this lazy servant out into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 25:14-30 ( KJV )
For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you stand there empty handed what reason will Christ have to say, well done thou good and faithful servant???


You also did not finish quoting John 15:16. What did Jesus appoint them to? To bear much fruit. What is the context of that passage? "You can do" nothing without me.

Butch5
Mar 22nd 2010, 11:31 PM
2 pet 3 9 is referring to the elect, the us-ward.. The us-ward are the beloved of God vs 8


8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And the elect according to the foreknowledge of God as stated in 1 pet 1:


1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Thats logical since 2 pet is a continuation to the same recipients of 1 peter. So 2 pet 3 9 applies to the elect whom God is not willing to perish, because Jesus has already bore their punishment for their sins.


Actually your interpretation doesn't fit the reformed doctrines. The reformed doctrines state that the elect cannot be perish. Why then would God be long suffering not willing that any should perish?

And 1 Peter was written to Jewish Christians. A poor translation has verse 2 reading elect according to the foreknowledge of God. That however is not what the Greek text says. "Eklektos" the Greek word for elect is actually in verse 1 in the Greek not verse 2. It is an adjective modifying the noun Pilgrims. Correctly translated it reads, To the elect pilgrims of The Dispersion. Young's Literal Translation has this passage rendered correctly.


1 Peter 1:1 ( YLT )
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

The foreknowledge spoken of in verse two is not in connection with election. In Greek language word order is not always the same as English. English usually puts the subject first, Greek does not always do so.

1 Peter 1:2 ( YLT )

according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied!

The bolded section above is a description or reason for the phrase Grace to you and peace be multiplied. An easier to read way to state this would be like this.

Grace to you and peace be multiplied! according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:15 AM
butch:


Actually your interpretation doesn't fit the reformed doctrines

Thats ok I derived it from scripture .

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:18 AM
butch:



Thats ok I derived it from scripture .

Do you also believe that the elect cannot lost their salvation?

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:34 AM
Do you also believe that the elect cannot lost their salvation?

No they cannot loose it.

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:39 AM
No they cannot loose it.

That's what I figured you would say. So your interpretation contradicts what you believe. If you believe the elect cannot be lost, then does Peter say, God is long suffering not willing that any should perish? You said this is speaking of the elect yet you believe the elect cannot be lost. So you saying, God doesn't want any to perish who cannot perish???

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:44 AM
butch:


God is long suffering not willing that any should perish?

Thats their security, that God is not willing they should perish, paul writes:

rom 8:31

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

again, in both instances the elect of God are being referenced.

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:59 AM
butch:



Thats their security, that God is not willing they should perish, paul writes:

rom 8:31

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

again, in both instances the elect of God are being referenced.

It still is a contradiction. To say that God is not will that any should perish of those who cannot perish does not make sense.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 02:24 AM
butch:


It still is a contradiction.

thats your interpretation.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 23rd 2010, 02:51 AM
Did anyone answer your great question here? Why is God telling "anyone" to repent and live? Are those of you who oppose the view God desires to save ALL people, saying that God is lying or misleading us in this passage? Are you saying God is playing some kind of a game here?

Are you trying to tell us that God creates people to go to hell and then He begs them to repent and live, knowing all along He made them unable to repent?! Please think about what you're saying. Is this really the God revealed to us in Christ Jesus, who is the perfect expression of God’s character and will?

Another awesome passage that reveals the heart of God. Christ Jesus is the Word made flesh who is God. God is telling us right here how He desired for these people to repent but THEY would not--they were unwilling.

This shows us that God's will can be thwarted (He does not always get His way) and it shows us that we can grieve God (He has feelings). God has defined Himself in Christ—this is who God is. Shouldn’t we allow God to define Himself the way He wants to? Just because God’s description of Himself doesn’t fit the idol some have created in their heads (i.e. “For God to be the kind of God I think sounds like God, He must control everyone & we can have no impact on His feelings”), doesn’t mean the picture they’ve created in their minds is correct. We humans equate emotions and a lack of control over others with weakness, which we assume is a negative attribute. As this passage reveals, God does not always get His way. Does this make Him weak?

Do you (those with this view) really think God’s omnipotence is threatened when He doesn’t get His way? Just because He is the source of all power doesn’t mean He feels the need to always exercise His power to remain true to His nature. As a matter of fact, surrendering His power is the very thing that displayed His power most perfectly when He went to the cross. What does strength look like? Look at Christ. Allow God to define what strength looks like. God’s omnipotence is not primarily displayed in sheer force but by allowing Himself to be beaten and put to death by sinners—what looked like weakness to humans was powerful and effective. God conquers evil and wins our hearts not by coercive force, but by self-sacrificial love.

We cheapen this sacrificial love when we say God died only for those He knew ahead of time would choose to love Him. He died for ALL—with the genuine hope that all would choose Him, because they always genuinely could. And those alive today, can still genuinely choose Him. God died for ALL sinners—those who chose Him and those who never chose Him; those who will choose Him and those who will never choose Him. That is sacrificial love.


God's Will thwarted? He doesnt ALWAYS get His Way?


I'm amazed at that statement...

you have a God in Heaven who is UNABLE...

but the Word tells us He is Able...

not unable.. with His will thwarted now and then.. and He not getting His Way...

wow... I"m shocked and amzed at that statement..

You have a God sitting In Heaven.. UNABLE do carry thru what He has Ordained in His Word.. who 'doesnt' always Get His Way.. dependant soley on the will of man... to make sure His Word comes to pass...

if the Potter has power over the clay... then the clay must stand up and tell the potter...

your not getting your way this time... me the clay is greater than you.... you can't have your way.. your just going to have to 'wait on me....

do you know who the POTTER is? what right does the clay have to say to the 'potter'.. what doest thou? and 'why'?

does not the Potter have power over the clay?


do you know that the Potter has never missed the mark?

and that He has always been on time.. never late .. never early.. but right on time...


If God's Will could be thwarted....... and He didn't get His Way... then How did He get to the Cross?

it seems like there was one instance in Scripture where one tried to thwart the Will of God.. when Peter went and spoke to Jesus... and said....... Master, We cant let you go to Jerusalem... and we can't let you die there... what did Jesus tell Peter?


Get thee Behind Me Satan... thou art an offense to me..... for thou savourest not the things of God.. but the things of men...

there is one instance in which the Will of God.. was attempted to be thwart.. but you see God is top of things.. He knew what was going on and who was behind the 'thwarting'..

He is Greater than that... and His Will cannot be Thwarted

Because the Master Potter has total control over the 'clay'...

in the day of death.. who is He that hath control of the 'spirit'...

is it man or God Himself....

that should tell you who is in Control..

The issues of Life and Death belong to Jesus Christ.. and He has control over all of it...because He Graciously Laid down His life...

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 03:02 AM
looking up:


Are you trying to tell us that God creates people to go to hell and then He begs them to repent and live, knowing all along He made them unable to repent?!

Only the elect are called to repent because they have been given repentance by Christ acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And since gentiles too are part of the spiritual Israel it is written acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

They have been granted repentance unto life, so the call is to them to make it manifested, for they already have it from their new birth.

Sirus
Mar 23rd 2010, 03:27 AM
give repentance.......because the Christ had come -to all --both Israel and Gentile.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 03:46 AM
give repentance.......because the Christ had come -to all --both Israel and Gentile.

He gave repentance to His chosen in each category of peoples, the Jews and the Gentiles, and they together equal the israel of God.

Sirus
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:18 AM
It does not say that. It says Israel and Gentiles. There's no exception clause.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:33 AM
sirus:


It does not say that

It does not deny it.

Sirus
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:50 AM
To give His Son to all certainly does deny He gave His Son to only some.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:52 AM
To give His Son to all certainly does deny He gave His Son to only some.

What scripture says that He did not only give His Son for some ?

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:54 AM
God's Will thwarted? He doesnt ALWAYS get His Way?People sinning is His way? People raping little children is His way? People brutally murdering is His way? People going to hell is His way?


I'm amazed at that statement...

you have a God in Heaven who is UNABLE...Yes. There are things God is unable to do; things that are logically contradictory. There are logical constraints on the Creator by His own doing. If God decides to create any particular thing, He thereby decides not to create it as any other particular thing, which means God can’t decide to create it other than it is. For example, God can’t make a round square even though He is infinitely intelligent.

And God can’t force human beings to love Him, because as soon as love is forced upon individuals, it is no longer love. Love must be chosen. In a world where love must be chosen, free will must also be a reality and thus the possibility to not choose love becomes real. God could have created a world in which His will is always done. If He had, a world in which His will is possibly not done would have been ruled out. In this case, however, love would not have been possible, since love requires the option to not love.


but the Word tells us He is Able...

not unable.. with His will thwarted now and then.. and He not getting His Way...Yes, His will is often thwarted (every time we sin, for example).

Oh, rebellious children, says the Lord, who carry out a plan, but not mine; who make an alliance, but against my will, adding sin to sin (Is. 30:1).

They were not fulfilling God’s will by rebelling against Him. They were rejecting His will.


wow... I"m shocked and amzed at that statement..

You have a God sitting In Heaven.. UNABLE do carry thru what He has Ordained in His Word.. who 'doesnt' always Get His Way.. dependant soley on the will of man... to make sure His Word comes to pass...

if the Potter has power over the clay... then the clay must stand up and tell the potter...

your not getting your way this time... me the clay is greater than you.... you can't have your way.. your just going to have to 'wait on me....

do you know who the POTTER is? what right does the clay have to say to the 'potter'.. what doest thou? and 'why'?

does not the Potter have power over the clay?

do you know that the Potter has never missed the mark?

and that He has always been on time.. never late .. never early.. but right on time...

If God's Will could be thwarted....... and He didn't get His Way... then How did He get to the Cross?The cross is proof that God doesn’t always get His way. Why did He go through the suffering of the cross? Because His creatures were not manifesting His will on earth (He came to die for sinners who were rebelling against His will). Jesus didn’t come to declare that everything already manifests the Father’s will; He came to establish it.


it seems like there was one instance in Scripture where one tried to thwart the Will of God.. when Peter went and spoke to Jesus... and said....... Master, We cant let you go to Jerusalem... and we can't let you die there... what did Jesus tell Peter?
Get thee Behind Me Satan... thou art an offense to me..... for thou savourest not the things of God.. but the things of men...

there is one instance in which the Will of God.. was attempted to be thwart.. but you see God is top of things.. He knew what was going on and who was behind the 'thwarting'..Satan and any others who oppose His will are currently thwarting it. Jesus came to establish the Father’s will, as we see throughout His ministry—casting out demons, curing the sick, healing the blind—and through His death and resurrection. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and we, the Body, are to continue with this work until He returns. This is no time to sit back and relax with the misguided hope that everything is in God’s will just because He is the source of all power. As we’ve seen, being the source of all power does not mean God can make a round square. He makes the definitions by His own choosing in what and when He creates. It can’t be both a circle and a square at the same time. God chose to create this world, not another. A world full of beings who can freely love; not a world full of robots. This world, which is full of beings opposed to His will, but which is also full of beings freely choosing to align themselves with His will.


He is Greater than that... and His Will cannot be Thwarted…God’s greatness does not depend on sheer force. God doesn’t feel out of control because human beings have a degree of control, a degree of freedom. His omnipotence isn’t threatened by our freedom. He’s not like us.

Sirus
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:54 AM
What scripture says that He did not only give His Son for some ?Anything between Genesis and Revelation pertaining to salvation.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 05:03 AM
Anything between Genesis and Revelation pertaining to salvation.

So I guess that means you will not produce a scripture to back up your statement.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 05:05 AM
looking up:



And God can’t force human beings to love Him


He can make them willing to Love Him. because we dont by nature.

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 08:39 AM
2 pet 3 9 is referring to the elect, the us-ward.. The us-ward are the beloved of God vs 8


8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And the elect according to the foreknowledge of God as stated in 1 pet 1:


1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Thats logical since 2 pet is a continuation to the same recipients of 1 peter. So 2 pet 3 9 applies to the elect whom God is not willing to perish, because Jesus has already bore their punishment for their sins.

We do not become the beloved of God until we believe. This is why God wants all men to come to repentance.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:15 PM
first:


We do not become the beloved of God until we believe.

Please provide a scripture source for this statement.

My belief is that Gods chosen are Loved of God from everlasting Jer 31:

3The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Jesus says that the elect [ represented by His disciples at the time] had been like Him, Loved by the Father before the world began Jn 17:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

But I want to see your scriptural evidence for what you have asserted, that one cannot be beloved of God until they first believe.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:12 PM
We do not become the beloved of God until we believe. This is why God wants all men to come to repentance.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Firstfruits

that 'belief'... FF.. is that man generated or is its Origin and Birth from Heaven??

God's Beloved are 'loved' by Him from the Foundation of the World..

all that the Father has Given to Jesus will come to Him...

It was His Unconditional and Unmerited Love towards me .. even when I was lost.. that drew me to Him.. and upon this Revelation.. I came to "know'' Him.. and 'believed on Him''..

He helped me to 'believe'.. and the way He did it.. was to Reveal Himself to me.. in such a powerful way.. that I had no other choice.. the Revelation of His unmerited Love and Grace.. this revelation to this 'lost siner'....and it took this hard hearted, guilt ridden, condemnation filled and bound soul.. to his knees... asking Him to take control of my life..

I didnt just one day say.. 'hey I'm going to 'believe'... now that makes me Beloved...

no, thats a man centered salvation FF....

God's Elect are beloved and Loved from the Foundation of the World....

with Everlasting 'kiindness'.. have I drawn thee....

Thats Eternal FF.. the issues of it belong to God Himself.... not man..

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:45 PM
first:



Please provide a scripture source for this statement.

My belief is that Gods chosen are Loved of God from everlasting Jer 31:

3The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Jesus says that the elect [ represented by His disciples at the time] had been like Him, Loved by the Father before the world began Jn 17:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

But I want to see your scriptural evidence for what you have asserted, that one cannot be beloved of God until they first believe.

God love all the world, but requires us to believe before we are accepted of him and become sons and daughters of God, his beloved.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:50 PM
first:


God love all the world,

Arent you suppose to be showing us a scripture that says that one is not beloved or Loved [same word and meaning] until after they believe ?

Could you please provide that ? Jn 3 16 does not say that, in fact it indicates the exact opposite of your claim.

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 05:04 PM
first:



Arent you suppose to be showing us a scripture that says that one is not beloved or Loved [same word and meaning] until after they believe ?

Could you please provide that ? Jn 3 16 does not say that, in fact it indicates the exact opposite of your claim.

Did you read all the scriptures given?

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 05:12 PM
first:


Did you read all the scriptures given?

Yeah, but not one of them stated that one is not loved by God until after they believe. Jn 3 16 seems to indicate that He loved that world before it became believers in Him.

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 05:21 PM
first:



Yeah, but not one of them stated that one is not loved by God until after they believe. Jn 3 16 seems to indicate that He loved that world before it became believers in Him.

This is what was posted before: God loves all the world, but requires us to believe before we are accepted of him and become sons and daughters of God, his beloved. Which is according to John3:16

We through Christs are beloved of Christ.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

We are a special people when we belong to God.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 07:55 PM
first:


This is what was posted before: God loves all the world, but requires us to believe before we are accepted of him and become sons and daughters of God, his beloved. Which is according to John3:16

So then, all the people in the world must first be born and then believe, before Jn 3 16 is True ? Is that what you believe ?

What about the scripture that says God Loved men while they were sinners ? rom 5:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

You dont believe that is True ?

And, please, you have yet to provide a scripture, that says God does not love one until after they believe..

John146
Mar 23rd 2010, 08:39 PM
All are in blindeness and unbelief by nature, So God chooses to confirm the non elect in their unbelief and hardness, for He is actively against their conversion..

Jn 12:

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

They could not not believe [ by Divine Purpose] so the effect is they would not believe..

They had not the ability to believe because God would not let them believe, His purpose was to destroy them as vessels of wrath..You are mistaken here. If you read Romans 11 you should see that they were blinded for a specific reason. But God did not randomly choose to blind some and not the rest. The ones He blinded were those who did not believe.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Did God blind them so that they could not ever believe after that? No! That is where you are mistaken. Look what Paul said regarding the ones who were blinded:

Romans 11
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

You would say that they stumbled so that they would fall and be destroyed as vessels of wrath. But that isn't what Paul said. He said they were blinded so that through their fall salvation came unto the Gentiles, which should provoke them to jealousy. And Paul hoped that "by any means I may provoke" some of them to jealousy and lead them to salvation. The very ones that you think were blinded so that they would be destroyed are the ones Paul hoped to lead to salvation! It's a very good thing that Paul didn't have your view of things or else he might have left them for dead and not tried to lead them to salvation. He knew that if they were provoked to jealousy by seeing Gentiles being saved then there was a good chance that some of them, because they were jealous, would want what the Gentile believers had and would then put their faith in Christ and be saved just as the Gentiles did. That is why Paul said this about those who were blinded and cut off:

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

You would say that they could not believe the rest of their lives, but Paul said that if they did not continue to be in unbelief they could be grafted in again.

John146
Mar 23rd 2010, 08:51 PM
jn 14



2 cor 2:

14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place.

15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

16 To the one [non elect] we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other [elect] the aroma of life leading to life.You posted this scripture with no commentary, so what do you think this scripture is saying that relates to this thread?


God said:

ex 4:


21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people goI was talking in terms of Pharaoh's heart attitude towards God even before that. This verse relates to God hardening Pharaoh's heart for the particular purpose of him not letting God's people go out of Egypt. But are you denying that Pharaoh had a hardened heart towards God even before that? He was clearly an evil person and hardened towards God even before God hardened his heart so that he would not let the people go. Notice that God hardened Pharaoh's heart after he had already been alive for a good amount of time (it doesn't say how old he was at the time). Yet you act as if his heart was hardened by God from birth. That is not the case.

John146
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:02 PM
Can anyone who believes that God desires to condemn people explain the following?

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." Eze.18:32

Why does God want people to repent and live if it is His desire to condemn them?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Why does Jesus say that He desired to gather Israel but they would not come to Him?Don't expect them to answer your questions because they have no answers to them. The very ones that they think God makes as vessels of wrath from birth are the ones that He does not want to die in their wickedness and instead wants them to "repent and live". The same ones that Jesus wanted to bless are those who they think were made vessels of wrath from birth. He did not bless those unbelieving Jews and gather "thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings" because they would not (were not willing to) accept and embrace Him. It was not a case of them not being able to believe in Him.

John146
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:09 PM
looking up:



Only the elect are called to repent because they have been given repentance by Christ acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And since gentiles too are part of the spiritual Israel it is written acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

They have been granted repentance unto life, so the call is to them to make it manifested, for they already have it from their new birth.In those verses Israelites and Gentiles are mentioned in general. Obviously, not all Israelites and Gentiles repent. So, what those verses are saying is that God granted the opportunity to both Israel and the Gentiles to repent so that they could have the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. How exactly would God give repentance to someone, anyway? Do you think people are like puppets and God pulls their strings and makes them repent? That isn't taught anywhere in scripture. If that is how it worked then it wouldn't make any sense for Jesus to say that He came to call people to repentance. People are called to repentance, not given repentance (made/forced to repent).

John146
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:16 PM
that 'belief'... FF.. is that man generated or is its Origin and Birth from Heaven??

God's Beloved are 'loved' by Him from the Foundation of the World..

all that the Father has Given to Jesus will come to Him...

It was His Unconditional and Unmerited Love towards me .. even when I was lost.. that drew me to Him.. and upon this Revelation.. I came to "know'' Him.. and 'believed on Him''..

He helped me to 'believe'.. and the way He did it.. was to Reveal Himself to me.. in such a powerful way.. that I had no other choice.. the Revelation of His unmerited Love and Grace.. this revelation to this 'lost siner'....and it took this hard hearted, guilt ridden, condemnation filled and bound soul.. to his knees... asking Him to take control of my life...If you had no other choice but to believe in Him then why would you need to ask Him to take control of your life? Don't you believe that He would have taken control of your life whether you asked Him to or not?


I didnt just one day say.. 'hey I'm going to 'believe'... now that makes me Beloved...

no, thats a man centered salvation FF....Call it whatever you want, but it's what Jesus taught:

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:21 PM
jn 14 6


In those verses Israelites and Gentiles are mentioned in general.

In the first reference, Israel means both Jew and Gentile elect, but peter did not know it.

And since it did mean both Jew and gentile elect, to make that clear, it was said of the gentiles too has repentance of life been given in acts 11.

But in actuality, its no more than a clarification of acts 5, for the Israel of God to which repentance has been given [along with forgiveness of sins] is comprised of elect jews and gentiles, the seed of Abraham.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:24 PM
john146:


You posted this scripture with no commentary, so what do you think this scripture is saying that relates to this thread?

You need to verify what question or comment i was responding to when that post was made, have you done that ?

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:27 PM
jn146



You are mistaken here.


Thats your opinion, you need to perhaps reread the post and see why I posted what i did.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:29 PM
jn146:


I was talking in terms of Pharaoh's heart attitude towards God even before that.

Thats not the issue on his heart before that, we are speaking about what God did ex 4:

21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:34 PM
jn 14 6



In the first reference, Israel means both Jew and Gentile elect, but peter did not know it.

And since it did mean both Jew and gentile elect, to make that clear, it was said of the gentiles too has repentance of life been given in acts 11.

But in actuality, its no more than a clarification of acts 5, for the Israel of God to which repentance has been given [along with forgiveness of sins] is comprised of elect jews and gentiles, the seed of Abraham.


this is correct....

John146
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:35 PM
jn 14 6



In the first reference, Israel means both Jew and Gentile elect, but peter did not know it.That is not the case. Peter was speaking through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. How would he not know what he was saying? The context indicates that he was speaking of the nation of Israel there rather than the spiritual Israel of God.


And since it did mean both Jew and gentile elect, to make that clear, it was said of the gentiles too has repentance of life been given in acts 11.The Gentiles in addition to who else? The Jews, right? So, this shows that the context of Acts 5 is God granting the opportunity for repentance unto forgiveness of sins and eternal life to the Jews. And the context of Acts 11 is to show that not only did God grant the opportunity for repentance unto forgiveness and eternal life to the Jews, but to the Gentiles also.

John146
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:37 PM
jn146:



Thats not the issue on his heart before that, we are speaking about what God did ex 4:

21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. You don't want to discuss the condition of his heart before that? Why not? What kind of person was he before God hardened his heart for the purpose of him not letting the people go?

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:43 PM
jn 146:


You don't want to discuss the condition of his heart before that?

No not here, thats another topic, that of total depravity, if you want to discuss that subject, start a thread on it and i will contribute. But the point here and now is what God said He would and did do to pharoah:

ex 4:

21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:48 PM
jn 146:



That is not the case.


It is the case, just because peter was preaching under the inspiriation of the spirit does not mean he understood what he preached, the main thing is that what he preached was true none the less.

For God did indeed give repentance to Israel, he just did not realize that Israel was a spiritual people and not a ethnic people. He found out later in Acts 10 and through his fellowship with paul.

John146
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:49 PM
jn 146:



No not here, thats another topic, that of total depravity, if you want to discuss that subject, start a thread on it and i will contribute.It relates to this thread.


But the point here and now is what God said He would and did do to pharoah:

ex 4:

21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people goNo one is denying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so you didn't need to tell anyone that. The issue we're discussing in this thread is whether or not God hardened his heart from birth or sometime later for a particular purpose.

John146
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:49 PM
jn 146:



It is the case, just because peter was preaching under the inspiriation of the spirit does not mean he understood what he preachedYou have to be kidding me with this. Of course he understood what he preached. You think the Spirit would reveal to you what he was preaching but not Peter himself? Come on.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:52 PM
jn 146:


It relates to this thread.

then you explain it, i am under no obligation to relate the two . My stand is that God hardened pharoahs heart like he said He would do ex 4:

21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go

and ex 7:13

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:53 PM
butch:



thats your interpretation.


Oh, that's the answer??? When your doctrine contradicts itself and Scripture you simply claim, "that's your interpretation"? You have made numerous claims that have been shown incorrect, is it just every one's interpretation?

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:55 PM
jn 146:



No one is denying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart,


You are if you are saying that God hardened it after the fact. if that was the case, God would not have to say, I will harden his heart.

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:05 PM
first:



So then, all the people in the world must first be born and then believe, before Jn 3 16 is True ? Is that what you believe ?

What about the scripture that says God Loved men while they were sinners ? rom 5:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

You dont believe that is True ?

And, please, you have yet to provide a scripture, that says God does not love one until after they believe..

Since we know that God loves us all, what then do you believe it means to be accepted in the beloved?

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Tim 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

Why are we beloved even though we know that God loves the world?

Firstfruits

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:07 PM
Don't expect them to answer your questions because they have no answers to them. The very ones that they think God makes as vessels of wrath from birth are the ones that He does not want to die in their wickedness and instead wants them to "repent and live". The same ones that Jesus wanted to bless are those who they think were made vessels of wrath from birth. He did not bless those unbelieving Jews and gather "thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings" because they would not (were not willing to) accept and embrace Him. It was not a case of them not being able to believe in Him.

A big amen to that.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:07 PM
firstfruit:


Since we know that God loves us all,

Then your previous statement is inconsistent with what you are saying now, for you said earlier that one is not beloved of God until after they believe !

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:25 PM
firstfruit:



Then your previous statement is inconsistent with what you are saying now, for you said earlier that one is not beloved of God until after they believe !

Not if you understand the scriptures given.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Tim 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

Why are we beloved even though we know that God loves the world?

Firstfruits

pekoe
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:26 PM
posted by LookingUp
Did anyone answer your great question here?
Hi LookingUp. No, no takers on the plain teaching that God would have all people to be saved.

Another awesome passage that reveals the heart of God. Christ Jesus is the Word made flesh who is God. God is telling us right here how He desired for these people to repent but THEY would not--they were unwilling.

This shows us that God's will can be thwarted (He does not always get His way) and it shows us that we can grieve God (He has feelings). God has defined Himself in Christ—this is who God is. Shouldn’t we allow God to define Himself the way He wants to? Just because God’s description of Himself doesn’t fit the idol some have created in their heads (i.e. “For God to be the kind of God I think sounds like God, He must control everyone & we can have no impact on His feelings”), doesn’t mean the picture they’ve created in their minds is correct. We humans equate emotions and a lack of control over others with weakness, which we assume is a negative attribute. As this passage reveals, God does not always get His way. Does this make Him weak?

Do you (those with this view) really think God’s omnipotence is threatened when He doesn’t get His way? Just because He is the source of all power doesn’t mean He feels the need to always exercise His power to remain true to His nature. As a matter of fact, surrendering His power is the very thing that displayed His power most perfectly when He went to the cross. What does strength look like? Look at Christ. Allow God to define what strength looks like. God’s omnipotence is not primarily displayed in sheer force but by allowing Himself to be beaten and put to death by sinners—what looked like weakness to humans was powerful and effective. God conquers evil and wins our hearts not by coercive force, but by self-sacrificial love.

We cheapen this sacrificial love when we say God died only for those He knew ahead of time would choose to love Him. He died for ALL—with the genuine hope that all would choose Him, because they always genuinely could. And those alive today, can still genuinely choose Him. God died for ALL sinners—those who chose Him and those who never chose Him; those who will choose Him and those who will never choose Him. That is sacrificial love.
You hit it square my friend. People who believe God wants to torture anyone do not know God as they ought.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:32 PM
first:


Not if you understand the scriptures given.

lol, I dont think you understand the scriptures given, you say out of one side of your mouth that none are loved of God until after they believe, then turn around and say that God loved the world.

Thats doublemindness if I never saw it.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:49 PM
Hi LookingUp. No, no takers on the plain teaching that God would have all people to be saved.

You hit it square my friend. People who believe God wants to torture anyone do not know God as they ought.



Who said about anything about God torturing people?

do you believe in the Lake of Fire? the Final Judgement of the damned?

that will happen..

I see people all the time use this excuse.. God doesnt torture people.. when it comes to His Sovereign Power and Authority...

Its His will that all be saved.. but they wont all be saved... does that make Him a Torturer?

does that make God Un Righteous? because of His Judgements? and findal Verdict of the damned?

no, It makes Him Righteous and Holy... Becuase He is the Only One Worthy.. and what He did thru His Son Jesus the Christ.. He did not have to do that.. but He did because He was full of Mercy and Grace.......................

so do you also believe that the 'will' of God can be thwarted by man, and or devilish influences?

and do you also believe that God doesn't ALWAYS GET HIS WAY?

I would love to hear your thoughts on this...

Believe Me.. I 'know' Him... He is Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh... and I know Him.. because He loved me first.. and 'knew' me first.. even when I was in my mothers wombs.. and upon her chest.. He 'knew' me..

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:58 PM
thebeloved:


Its His will that all be saved.. but they wont all be saved

If it was Gods will that all be saved as in everyone in the world without exception, then guess what ?

Job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:05 PM
thebeloved:



If it was Gods will that all be saved as in everyone in the world without exception, then guess what ?

Job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

context my friend Context.


Luke 7:28-30 ( KJV )
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:11 PM
butch:


context my friend Context.

Thats a truth of scripture regardless of context, God is the context.



But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.


They were suppose to, they had been appointed to disobedience. They were the builders peter talked about here

1 pet 2:

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

They were the same ones Jesus says this about Matt 21:42

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

So there rejection of the counsel of God through John, was of the Lord's doing.

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:16 PM
butch:



Thats a truth of scripture regardless of context, God is the context.

So what, just erase Luke 7:30??? Don't you see my friend? Your random grabbing of Scripture out of context brings you into all kinds of contradictions. The Scriptures only mean what they mean in the context in which they were written. You cannot randomly pull Scriptures to suit your present argument.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:19 PM
butch:


So what, just erase Luke 7:30???

No, read my comments, it had to be that way for them.

Sirus
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:41 PM
So I guess that means you will not produce a scripture to back up your statement.Correct. There are 100's. You know them. Everyone does.

anthony57
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:49 PM
Correct. There are 100's. You know them. Everyone does.

Ok, thats your prerogative.

Sirus
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:53 PM
No, that's by a utter lack of necessity.

pekoe
Mar 24th 2010, 01:28 AM
posted by theBelovedDisciple
Who said about anything about God torturing people?
You are.


do you believe in the Lake of Fire? the Final Judgement of the damned? that will happen..
Yes, I know.

I see people all the time use this excuse.. God doesnt torture people.. when it comes to His Sovereign Power and Authority...
You have taken Gods attributes of absolute power and authority and slandered Him by them.


Its His will that all be saved.. but they wont all be saved... does that make Him a Torturer?

To you it does, because you believe God created people simply for the purpose of destroying them.


does that make God Un Righteous? because of His Judgements? and findal Verdict of the damned?
If God created people just to destroy them, then yes, God is unrighteous. I wouldn't serve a god who devised such a plan. That's why I don't serve your god.




no, It makes Him Righteous and Holy... Becuase He is the Only One Worthy.. and what He did thru His Son Jesus the Christ.. He did not have to do that.. but He did because He was full of Mercy and Grace...
You have turned the gospel of Jesus Christ into an absurd rant, because you believe faith is a work that has nothing to do with salvation. There is no mercy or grace in your god and he is neither holy or righteous.


so do you also believe that the 'will' of God can be thwarted by man, and or devilish influences?
Gods will has been subverted by you, for it is Gods will to save anyone who hears the gospel and believes it.

"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL PEOPLE"


and do you also believe that God doesn't ALWAYS GET HIS WAY?
Since you define "His way" as hopelessness, yes.


I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
God is going to punish people because they would not come to Him, not because they could not come to Him.

"WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED" Ro.10:13


Believe Me.. I 'know' Him...
I don't believe you.

pekoe
Mar 24th 2010, 01:37 AM
posted by anthony57
If it was Gods will that all be saved as in everyone in the world without exception, then guess what ?

Job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
Job was speaking of what God did to him even though he didn't understand it. Try reading the next verse.

pekoe
Mar 24th 2010, 01:47 AM
Second request

Can anyone who believes that God desires to condemn people explain the following?

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." Eze.18:32

Why does God want people to repent and live if it is His desire to condemn them?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Why does Jesus say that He desired to gather Israel but they would not come to Him?

anthony57
Mar 24th 2010, 07:14 AM
Job was speaking of what God did to him even though he didn't understand it. Try reading the next verse.

Job was Speaking about the Person of God. And the next verse furthers confirms my point. He performs the thing appointed to each person.

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 09:17 AM
first:



lol, I dont think you understand the scriptures given, you say out of one side of your mouth that none are loved of God until after they believe, then turn around and say that God loved the world.

Thats doublemindness if I never saw it.

Then can you please explain what it means to be beloved of God?

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Tim 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 24th 2010, 02:05 PM
firstfruit:


Then can you please explain what it means to be beloved of God?

I have already, its up to you to research the thread to see my explanation.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 24th 2010, 02:17 PM
I don't believe you.

Your putting words into my mouth poster....

You 'dont' know me...

and unfortunately.. there will be many who will stand before.. Him.. Jesus Christ , God manifest in the flesh...at the Final Judgement..

these who have been duped by a man centered salvation.. and man centered 'god'... whom they believe to be the 'real Jesus'.. but in the End.. found out to be false....

.they will stand before Him. Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh... with their whole life passing before them.. and with Eternal separation ahead of them... pleading and begging for His Mercy.. as He opens the Books.. they will plead and beg.. and gnash their teeth at Him.. as He pronounces the Final Verdict... these the wicked, the Damned.. these not found in the Lamb's Book of Life.. and they will be placed where they will be placed.. the Lake of Fire...

the Word Says that God Creates even the wicked for the Day of Evil...

Why would God create the Wicked for the Day of Evil? can you explain that?


and whether you believe me and the Testimony He has Given Me .. the Testimony of Jesus Christ..

doesnt really matter much.. You wont have to answer to 'me'.. but Him...

That Is Jesus Christ God Manfest in the flesh.. who Found me and Saved Me in February of 1994....

and your reaction of 'I don't believe you'. is not new to me.. or forgeign... for since He saved me.. and I've testifed of His delivering Power and His Mercy and Grace.. many have not believed.. but thats because 'unbelief'. reigns now days...Belief and Faith.... NOT in the True and Living God.. the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.. Jesus Christ God manifest in the flesh..... but these have 'belief' and faith in a man centered salvation...glued together by a global network of sects and divisions that teach you can work your way to Heaven, that you can become your own god or little Jesus, that man can come to God on His Own .. and 'choose' God.. out of his/her own power.... that God is a weak God in Heaven.. who needs man's help and is at man's beckoning call.. unable to get His Will done unless man tells Him what to do.. and how to do it.. these professing themselves to be 'wise' in their own eyes.. but foolishness and rebellion reigns in their heart.. as they go about doing their thing...claiming and professing to be the 'bride of Christ'... yet when the veil is pulled away.. it is revealed who is behind their true nature and doings....

by their 'fruit' ye shall know them..

your response.. reminds me of alot of what will go on when those stand before Him..

and they plead with Him.. gnasihing their teeth on Him and at Him... saying... we did all these great things in your Name.. did this and did that... and they plead beg and shout for mercy..

then He will say to them..

Away from Me , ye who work Iniquity, into Everlasting Fire, where the devil and his angels are...

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 02:37 PM
firstfruit:



I have already, its up to you to research the thread to see my explanation.

It does not explain how we are already loved by God then be accepted in the beloved.

Firstfruits

John146
Mar 24th 2010, 08:00 PM
jn 146:



then you explain it, i am under no obligation to relate the two . My stand is that God hardened pharoahs heart like he said He would do ex 4:

21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go

and ex 7:13

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.I did explain it. But, I will try one more time. Before God hardened Pharaoh's heart for the purpose of him not letting the Israelites go, was Pharaoh not already an evil, hard-hearted person before that? Was he not already someone who made the Israelites his slaves and treated them poorly? Do you actually think Pharaoh had a soft heart towards God before God hardened it for a particular purpose?

It wasn't that Pharaoh's heart was not already hardened before God hardened it. The difference is that God hardened it for the purpose that Pharaoh would not let the Israelites go because God wanted to use Pharaoh "that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth" (Rom 9:17).

So, it is in that context that people have no right to ask "Why doth he yet find fault?" because it also says "Who can resist His will"? Who can say that God had no right to use Pharaoh that way? No one. But when someone says that God made Pharaoh that way from birth then we have to question that because if that was the case then that would contradict God's character as described in other scripture.

John146
Mar 24th 2010, 08:08 PM
first:



lol, I dont think you understand the scriptures given, you say out of one side of your mouth that none are loved of God until after they believe, then turn around and say that God loved the world.

Thats doublemindness if I never saw it.He was trying to explain the difference between being beloved and being loved, but you are not willing to listen. God loves everyone, but those who are His are beloved. Do you know what the difference is between God loving the world and being beloved of God? For God to love the world means He cared about everyone in the world enough to give them the opportunity to be saved though faith in His Son. To be beloved means that you have a relationship with God and He loves you as His child. Do you see the difference now?

John146
Mar 24th 2010, 08:15 PM
Your putting words into my mouth poster....

You 'dont' know me...

and unfortunately.. there will be many who will stand before.. Him.. Jesus Christ , God manifest in the flesh...at the Final Judgement..

these who have been duped by a man centered salvation.. and man centered 'god'... whom they believe to be the 'real Jesus'.. but in the End.. found out to be false....

.they will stand before Him. Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh... with their whole life passing before them.. and with Eternal separation ahead of them... pleading and begging for His Mercy.. as He opens the Books.. they will plead and beg.. and gnash their teeth at Him.. as He pronounces the Final Verdict... these the wicked, the Damned.. these not found in the Lamb's Book of Life.. and they will be placed where they will be placed.. the Lake of Fire...

the Word Says that God Creates even the wicked for the Day of Evil...

Why would God create the Wicked for the Day of Evil? can you explain that?


and whether you believe me and the Testimony He has Given Me .. the Testimony of Jesus Christ..

doesnt really matter much.. You wont have to answer to 'me'.. but Him...

That Is Jesus Christ God Manfest in the flesh.. who Found me and Saved Me in February of 1994....

and your reaction of 'I don't believe you'. is not new to me.. or forgeign... for since He saved me.. and I've testifed of His delivering Power and His Mercy and Grace.. many have not believed.. but thats because 'unbelief'. reigns now days...Belief and Faith.... NOT in the True and Living God.. the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.. Jesus Christ God manifest in the flesh..... but these have 'belief' and faith in a man centered salvation...glued together by a global network of sects and divisions that teach you can work your way to Heaven, that you can become your own god or little Jesus, that man can come to God on His Own .. and 'choose' God.. out of his/her own power.... that God is a weak God in Heaven.. who needs man's help and is at man's beckoning call.. unable to get His Will done unless man tells Him what to do.. and how to do it.. these professing themselves to be 'wise' in their own eyes.. but foolishness and rebellion reigns in their heart.. as they go about doing their thing...claiming and professing to be the 'bride of Christ'... yet when the veil is pulled away.. it is revealed who is behind their true nature and doings....

by their 'fruit' ye shall know them..

your response.. reminds me of alot of what will go on when those stand before Him..

and they plead with Him.. gnasihing their teeth on Him and at Him... saying... we did all these great things in your Name.. did this and did that... and they plead beg and shout for mercy..

then He will say to them..

Away from Me , ye who work Iniquity, into Everlasting Fire, where the devil and his angels are...Can you explain why people are condemned and why they will be cast into the lake of fire on judgment day? You think that was God's will for them from the beginning? What kind of "God" would do that? Not the true loving God who is full of mercy and grace and does not wish for anyone to die in their wickedness and instead wants all people to repent (Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 33:11, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31). Your doctrine teaches that man has no responsibility. Scripture repeatedly teaches otherwise.

pekoe
Mar 25th 2010, 12:10 AM
posted by theBelovedDisciple

Your putting words into my mouth poster....You 'dont' know me...

I don't have to know you. I know the filthy doctrine you teach which demeans the God I love.


..who have been duped by a man centered salvation.. and man centered 'god'..

The gospel is Christ centered and ordained byGod. God chose to save people by sending preachers to them.

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every person. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mk.16:15-16

This has always been Gods will.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," He.1:1



.they will stand before Him. Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh... with their whole life passing before them.. and with Eternal separation ahead of them... pleading and begging for His Mercy.. as He opens the Books.. they will plead and beg.. and gnash their teeth at Him.. as He pronounces the Final Verdict... these the wicked, the Damned.. these not found in the Lamb's Book of Life.. and they will be placed where they will be placed.. the Lake of Fire..

Yes that's right, but God takes no pleasure in that and before we believed in Jesus we were in that crowd.


the Word Says that God Creates even the wicked for the Day of Evil...Why would God create the Wicked for the Day of Evil? can you explain that?

Very simple. He means the people who are now wicked, not the people "God made evil." Do you understand? The prophet is referring to people who exist (meaning they were created by God) who happen to be wicked. God does everything to make people holy. People are evil because they choose to be, not because God made them that way.

"Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill, And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes....What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?" Is.5:1-2,4

The depravity of what you are teaching is mindboggling.


...but these have 'belief' and faith in a man centered salvation...glued together by a global network of sects and divisions that teach you can work your way to Heaven.."

You'll notice faith and works are contrasted in the Bible, or, maybe you won't.



that you can become your own god or little Jesus

The gospel humbles people, not exalts them, for the simple reason that Christs sacrifice is the only one acceptable for sins, but that Jesus freely gave Himself to the world doesn't mean you have to do nothing to be saved. I have already quoted His commission above but have no doubt you ignore it completely.


that man can come to God on His Own . and 'choose' God.. out of his/her own power..

Choosing to believe God is entirely up to the person. Your claim that God deliberately keeps people from being saved is a filthy lie. It's worse than the most filthy pornography I can imagine. Worse than the most horrofic crime I can imagine. Worse than Hitler.


"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" De.30:19



that God is a weak God in Heaven.. who needs man's help and is at man's beckoning call.. unable to get His Will done unless man tells Him what to do.

What in the world are you talking about? When people come to faith in Jesus, they understand for the first time in their lives that they are at Gods beck and call. You have this totally backwards.



by their 'fruit' ye shall know them.

Yes, and believers bear fruit by abiding in Christ. Maybe you should learn what that means. Try reading Jn.15


your response.. reminds me of alot of what will go on when those stand before Him..and they plead with Him.. gnasihing their teeth on Him and at Him... saying... we did all these great things in your Name.. did this and did that.

Why would anyone who believes Jesus suffered for their sins be proud of themself? You have taken the fact that people must believe the gospel for salvation and turned it into a pride thing. In doing this, you have erased faith altogether and denigrated God into someone who made people for the prime purpose of destroying them. Your doctrine is utterly contempitable.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2010, 12:46 AM
Very simple. He means the people who are now wicked, not the people "God made evil." Do you understand? The prophet is referring to people who exist (meaning they were created by God) who happen to be wicked. God does everything to make people holy. People are evil because they choose to be, not because God made them that way.I wanted to add something I hope will be helpful in regards to Proverbs 16:4.

First of all, how can anyone conceive of our God creating people wicked, yet hold them responsible for their wickedness? How can one reconcile God’s holiness with this view? One cannot. That obvious realization alone should get us to dig deeper into this verse.

The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4

The word “made” can be translated “works out” and the word “purpose” can be translated “answer.” In that case, it would read more like, The Lord works out everything for its own answer, even the wicked for the day of evil. This simply means that God works things out in such a way that in the end, the wicked must answer to their wickedness. In other words, they will reap what they sow.

Keep up the good work pekoe!

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 08:47 AM
He was trying to explain the difference between being beloved and being loved, but you are not willing to listen. God loves everyone, but those who are His are beloved. Do you know what the difference is between God loving the world and being beloved of God? For God to love the world means He cared about everyone in the world enough to give them the opportunity to be saved though faith in His Son. To be beloved means that you have a relationship with God and He loves you as His child. Do you see the difference now?

Thanks Eric,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 08:50 AM
Can you explain why people are condemned and why they will be cast into the lake of fire on judgment day? You think that was God's will for them from the beginning? What kind of "God" would do that? Not the true loving God who is full of mercy and grace and does not wish for anyone to die in their wickedness and instead wants all people to repent (Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 33:11, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31). Your doctrine teaches that man has no responsibility. Scripture repeatedly teaches otherwise.

I agree, if it is all God, then if we go to the lake of fire it is Gods fault "God did not make me believe".

God bless you!

Firstfruits

pekoe
Mar 25th 2010, 10:29 AM
posted by LookingUp
I wanted to add something I hope will be helpful in regards to Proverbs 16:4.

First of all, how can anyone conceive of our God creating people wicked, yet hold them responsible for their wickedness? How can one reconcile God’s holiness with this view? One cannot. That obvious realization alone should get us to dig deeper into this verse.

The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4

The word “made” can be translated “works out” and the word “purpose” can be translated “answer.” In that case, it would read more like, The Lord works out everything for its own answer, even the wicked for the day of evil. This simply means that God works things out in such a way that in the end, the wicked must answer to their wickedness. In other words, they will reap what they sow.
Good point! God had to work out how He would deal with people who refuse to repent. Also, lets think about what God told Adam and Eve. He commanded them not to eat from the tree. And even so, every person begins life as an innocent baby.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter in posts LookingUp. This foolish belief is something an atheist would argue about God.

pekoe
Mar 25th 2010, 10:49 AM
theBelovedDisciple,
I just wanted to apologize if anything in my posts seem derogatory toward you personally. I don't mean them to be, but this idea about God you've talked yourself into is so vile I can't stand it.

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Is.55:7

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 11:45 AM
Good point! God had to work out how He would deal with people who refuse to repent. Also, lets think about what God told Adam and Eve. He commanded them not to eat from the tree. And even so, every person begins life as an innocent baby.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter in posts Firstfruits. This foolish belief is something an atheist would argue about God.

I believe this was posted by Lookingup.

God bless you!

Firstfruits