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tmentour
Feb 25th 2010, 01:27 AM
John 1:45 "No one has ever seen God, but God the one and only."

Is that even true? Didn't many OT people like adam/eve/noah/abraham/moses, etc. seen/hav 1 on 1 interactions w/God? Or what does this verse mean then?

Crosstalk
Feb 25th 2010, 02:02 AM
After Moses requests to see God, in Exodus 33:20 God tells Moses that no one can see His face and live.

But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Moreover in 1 Tim. 6:15-16 says:

"which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in
unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."

John 1:18 says the same thing, yet in Deut. 34:10 the Scriptures says that Moses knew God face to face. There is no contradiction here though as God appeared as it is
described in Num. 12:8;

"I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”

The term "form" here is rendered as "similitude" in the KJV, and it means something fashioned or an image or likeness.

In 1 John 3:2 it says that after we go to Heaven we will then see God as He is.

"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

Butch5
Feb 25th 2010, 02:22 AM
John 1:45 "No one has ever seen God, but God the one and only."

Is that even true? Didn't many OT people like adam/eve/noah/abraham/moses, etc. seen/hav 1 on 1 interactions w/God? Or what does this verse mean then?

It was Jesus they saw in the OT. Consider,


Exodus 3:14 ( KJV )
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.



John 8:57-58 ( KJV )
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Crosstalk
Feb 25th 2010, 02:34 AM
That's true, good point Butch. In many places in the OT such as Gen. 18 and 32, Josh. 5, Dan. 3, etc. Jesus appeared to men and they call them Christophanies. I believe that the LORD in Ex. 33:20 was the Father though, but I can't be sure.
Anyway, they didn't see Jesus as He was on the throne in Heaven. (I have to edit this to make clear that I meant that they didn't see Jesus as He appears when on the throne in Heaven)

Jesus said in John 5:39 that:

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."

Butch5
Feb 25th 2010, 03:14 AM
That's true, good point Bruce. In many places in the OT such as Gen. 18 and 32, Josh. 5, Dan. 3, etc. Jesus appeared to men and they call them Christophanies. I believe that the LORD in Ex. 33:20 was the Father though, but I can't be sure.
Anyway, they didn't see Jesus as He was on the throne in Heaven.

Jesus said in John 5:39 that:

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."

That's a hard one, because John said that no man has seen God.

John 1:18 ( KJV )
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I'll have to look into that.

Steven3
Feb 26th 2010, 02:50 AM
Hey Crosstalk
That's true, good point Butch. In many places in the OT such as Gen. 18 and 32, Josh. 5, Dan. 3, etc. Jesus appeared to men and they call them Christophanies.That's a term that is restricted to the specific exercise of seeking personal manifestations of Jesus in the OT text before his birth, rather than something directly derived from the OT text itself. Normally in commentaries these OT incidents where God speaks in the first person "I" through angels are generally called Theophanies (God-appearances) - since in those verses the word used in "Elohim" (God) or "YHWH" (Yahweh, LORD), not Christophanies, since at no point is the Hebrew word Messiah (the Hebrew from Christos, Annointed) in the Gen. 18 and 32, Josh. 5, Dan. 3, etc. text. Gen. 18 and 32, Josh. 5, Dan. 3, etc. text. specifically says "God" "Yahweh" in these verses.

-phany is an ending which means "appearing", as when God appears as something else --- appears as a storm, speaking through a burning bush, speaking through an angel, etc. But not when speaking through a human, which is just a prophet. To have a Christo-phany we'd have to have Christ appearing as something else. But he does not. To Paul on the road to Damascus, or again in Corinth, Christ just appears as himself.
S.

Bladers
Feb 26th 2010, 03:08 AM
That's a hard one, because John said that no man has seen God.

John 1:18 ( KJV )
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I'll have to look into that.

Remember Seen means FACE TO FACE!
The Father told moses, you cant SEE my face and live. This goes along with what Jesus said.
Jesus came to declare, not the backside of God. But the face of God, His image!

Jesus told philip, If you have seen me. You have seen the Father.
He was talking about seeing his Face.

Also if people saw Jesus's Face in the OT, then they would have seen the Father also and Jesus would be wrong.
But that's not the case!

roaring tiger
Feb 26th 2010, 09:44 AM
It was Jesus they saw in the OT. Consider,


Exodus 3:14 ( KJV )
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.



John 8:57-58 ( KJV )
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The God who spake to Moses is theSpirit of the Father.

The God Em-man-uel in Jesus is the spirit of the Father.

The Holy Ghost is Spirit of the Father.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven,the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered,Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me,ye should have known my Father also.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

On the last day God will be seen by all men.

Thanks and hope this will help./RT.

BroRog
Feb 26th 2010, 04:30 PM
John 1:45 "No one has ever seen God, but God the one and only."

Is that even true? Didn't many OT people like adam/eve/noah/abraham/moses, etc. seen/hav 1 on 1 interactions w/God? Or what does this verse mean then?

I believe John is talking about God's form. No man has seen God's form. This same idea is repeated again in verse 5:37.



And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John's point seems to be that, although none of his contemporaries have personally seen God, Jesus demonstrated to John's satisfaction that he (Jesus) represented the father to such a high degree that he could safely say that Jesus was indeed God incarnate.

Bing
Feb 27th 2010, 05:03 PM
Hey CrosstalkThat's a term that is restricted to the specific exercise of seeking personal manifestations of Jesus in the OT text before his birth, rather than something directly derived from the OT text itself. Normally in commentaries these OT incidents where God speaks in the first person "I" through angels are generally called Theophanies (God-appearances) - since in those verses the word used in "Elohim" (God) or "YHWH" (Yahweh, LORD), not Christophanies, since at no point is the Hebrew word Messiah (the Hebrew from Christos, Annointed) in the Gen. 18 and 32, Josh. 5, Dan. 3, etc. text. Gen. 18 and 32, Josh. 5, Dan. 3, etc. text. specifically says "God" "Yahweh" in these verses.

-phany is an ending which means "appearing", as when God appears as something else --- appears as a storm, speaking through a burning bush, speaking through an angel, etc. But not when speaking through a human, which is just a prophet. To have a Christo-phany we'd have to have Christ appearing as something else. But he does not. To Paul on the road to Damascus, or again in Corinth, Christ just appears as himself.
S.

I'll just remind you that "El" or "Elohim" is simply a generic word to mean "God". It would fit either Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Likewise, YHWH is the personal name of our God, not the title of God the Father. Jesus and His Father are one. Jesus is God, and He is YHWH. The theophanies throughout the Old Testament may indeed be visitations from God the Father, or they may be visitations from the preincarnate Christ, but the words "El" or "YHWH" cannot in and of themselves tell us which.

As far as John 1:45, I personally think that it has to do with the whole of God. He is infinite, and can never be beheld. When Moses saw His hand and His back, for instance, can he really lay claim to seeing God? If I saw the train station in Bristol, could I really lay claim to seeing the whole of England? I have not even really seen Bristol! A resident of Bristol might say that I could live in Bristol all my life and not see all that there is to see. How much more with God! But He has revealed Himself to us in His Son, who is fully God and fully man. His Spirit lives within us.