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windwords7
Mar 3rd 2010, 04:21 PM
I read this article recently and it has bothered me in certain respects. I would love to hear your thoughts on this conclusions drawn about confession/repentance in this article that I found here http://www.charismaministries.org/do-you-have-to-confess-a-sin-before-it-can-be-forgiven/



1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (NKJV)


When you fellowship with God, do you confess your sins to Him and ask for His forgiveness?
Do you do it every time you pray?
Do you feel guilty if you donít confess and seek forgiveness?
Do you think you have to do this every day?
Do you make a list of every single sin you committed in a day and ask forgiveness for each one or is it a more general confessing and asking?
How do you do it? Do you acknowledge what you did wrong, say sorry, ask forgiveness and then feel that God is happy with you again?
Why? Were you taught to do it?
If so, did you check to see if what you were taught was true or did you just swallow it hook line and sinker?
Is confession and asking forgiveness your idea of repentance?

Did you answer Ďyesí to a few of these questions? If you did, you really need to read the further and answer a few more questions for your own benefit.


Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. (NKJV)
Wouldnít it be awesome if God didnít impute our sin to us? We wouldnít need to confess or ask forgiveness anymore if God stopped holding our sins against us. We would be blessed for sure as this verse says. But God is a just and righteous judge, so it is wouldnít be possible for Him to not count our sins against us, right? Wrong!


2 Cor 5:19 that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, (NKJV)
It seems like God isnít imputing our sins to us if we are in Christ. Now if He is not holding our sins against us, are we blessed as Romans 4:8 says? Of course. So what sins do you need to confess if God is not charging you with any of them?


Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (NKJV)
So Jesus is the end of the law of righteousness, the end of the measure of right standing before God based on a personís moral performance, a personís ability to keep the law. If He ended the law, meaning it is not applicable any longer, why should I keep measuring myself according to it? Easy, I shouldnít and I donít.


Rom 4:15 the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. (NKJV)


Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law (NKJV)
Many people believe when we sin we deserve Godís wrath because we broke His laws. But sin is only sin if there is a measure that defines what it is. That measure was the law and it has come to an end. Where there is no law, no transgressions are counted against us. If no transgressions are imputed, there is no need to confess them since there arenít any to confess. If there arenít any sins held against us that we need to confess, we also donít need to worry about Godís wrath. There is only wrath when transgressions are counted. If no sin is counted against you, you also do not need to ask forgiveness. But how can all this be? How can God just end the law and not count peopleís sins against them any longer?


2 Cor 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NKJV)
Jesus was made into sin for you. God counted every single wretched vile sin of every single person throughout time and history against Jesus. All the wicked rebellious sin of the entre world was tied together in one person in one place at one time and that gave God the opportunity to punish all sin in one go. All the wrath God had against all the sin of the entire human race, was poured out completely on Jesus and He was put to death.


Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, (NKJV)
One sacrifice paid for all sins FOREVER. So if it is paid for, it is dealt with. How many of your sins were included in sins Jesus died for? All of them? If you said yes, then donít you think God knew every sin you would ever commit and remembered to count all of them against Jesus? If He already counted your sin against Jesus and poured out His wrath, then He doesnít need to do the same thing for you. If He counts your sin against you and Jesus, then Jesus died for nothing. Since He doesnít count them against us, stop trying to count them against yourself by confessing them to God.


At the point of salvation, we merely accepted and believed that Christ took our punishment already. When we believed that, we were reborn and created as new beings. We were made the righteousness of God in Christ. All our unrighteousness was taken away and we now have the same right standing before God as Jesus has. How can that be? Because when Jesus became sin for us, the righteousness He had from perfectly keeping the law, was given as a free gift to all mankind.

Rom 5:18-19 Therefore, as through one manís offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Manís righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one manís disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Manís obedience many will be made righteous. (NKJV)
In light of this, let us look again at 1 John 1:9.


1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (NKJV)


Have you been cleansed from all unrighteousness? Yes. So if you have been cleansed, does that mean you have been forgiven? Logically, yes. If you were forgiven, when did you confess your sins? The day you said, ďJesus, I canít do this. I trust You to save me.Ē That was your confession. Now that you know God doesnít count your sins against you anymore, you can also stop counting them. God did His job perfectly. Just trust Him.


But what about sinning again after salvation? That doesnít change the fact that ALL your sins were forgiven already. You donít need to confess ďnewĒ sins. When you do, all you are saying is that God apparently forgot to count those ones against Jesus. Since Jesus isnít going to die again, you have a problem if God messed up and forgot to count even one of your sins against Jesus. Rest assured that God didnít mess up. He forgave ALL your sin, even the ones you are going to commit tomorrow. Does that mean I can just go out and sin? Technically yes, but just remember that Jesus removed the punishment, the eternal separation sin brought between us and God. He didnít remove the consequence of sin. If I cheat on my wife, the consequence is that my marriage is over. If I steal or murder, the consequence is that I go to jail and become an outcast from society. Does that mean God is punishing me? No. It means I sowed destruction in my own life. The thief on the cross next to Jesus was forgiven but he still stayed and died on his cross. Jesusí sacrifice didnít make you immune against consequence, it made you immune from ever falling out of right standing before God.


Thatís enough for now. I have already given you enough reasons to go thank God for being so awesome!


Glory to Glory!
Cornel Marais

Frances
Mar 3rd 2010, 05:14 PM
[QUOTE=windwords7;2357317] I read this article recently and it has bothered me in certain respects. I would love to hear your thoughts on this conclusions drawn about ]

When you fellowship with God, do you confess your sins to Him and ask for His forgiveness? Yes, I repent..

Do you do it every time you pray? No.

Do you feel guilty if you don’t confess and seek forgiveness? Yes, because I am guilty.

Do you think you have to do this every day? Every time I commit a Sin.

Do you make a list of every single sin you committed in a day and ask forgiveness for each one or is it a more general confessing and asking? I repent as soon as I realise I have Sinned, theoreteically many times in one day.

How do you do it? Do you acknowledge what you did wrong, say sorry, ask forgiveness and then feel that God is happy with you again?I repent. In other words I determine not to grieve the Lord by repeating what is offensive to Him.

Why? Were you taught to do it?Yes, i also read the Word of God and find there the necesity to determine to live to please God. eg. 1 John 1:7 "IF we walk in the Light as He is in the Light we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Christ His Son cleanses us from all Sin" (happily sinning is [B]not walking in the Light).

If so, did you check to see if what you were taught was true or did you just swallow it hook line and sinker? I follow the Beeran principle of checking the whole counsel of God.

Is confession and asking forgiveness your idea of repentance?No. Repentance is determining not to repeat the offense.
[/LIST]
Acts 26:20 'repent, turn to God and do works befitting repentance.'

Rev.2:16 (Jesus said) "Repent , or else I will come to you quickly and will fight you with the sword of my mouth."

I suggest you take no notice of those who water down the requirementa of Sonship, following them could very well have painful consequences one day, living to please the Lord, and repenting when you fail Him, can never be wrong.

HisLeast
Mar 3rd 2010, 05:19 PM
But what about sinning again after salvation? That doesn’t change the fact that ALL your sins were forgiven already. You don’t need to confess “new” sins. When you do, all you are saying is that God apparently forgot to count those ones against Jesus. Since Jesus isn’t going to die again, you have a problem if God messed up and forgot to count even one of your sins against Jesus. Rest assured that God didn’t mess up. He forgave ALL your sin, even the ones you are going to commit tomorrow. Does that mean I can just go out and sin? Technically yes, but just remember that Jesus removed the punishment, the eternal separation sin brought between us and God. He didn’t remove the consequence of sin. If I cheat on my wife, the consequence is that my marriage is over. If I steal or murder, the consequence is that I go to jail and become an outcast from society. Does that mean God is punishing me? No. It means I sowed destruction in my own life. The thief on the cross next to Jesus was forgiven but he still stayed and died on his cross. Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t make you immune against consequence, it made you immune from ever falling out of right standing before God.

I'm no expert, but I'd imagine "right standing before God" includes a recognition of the damage of sin, and being penitent, even for fresh sins.

windwords7
Mar 3rd 2010, 05:37 PM
I do not concur with his conclusions on certain points. I feel very strongly that repentance is an ongoing reality in the life of Christians. Theologically the position is something I've never quite read as he stated it.

My heart's Desire
Mar 3rd 2010, 07:26 PM
Well, if Christ died for the sins of the world and one becomes a Christian and then has a relationship (is saved) with Christ, how many sins of yours have already been forgiven?

Vhayes
Mar 3rd 2010, 07:35 PM
I haven't read through the thread but my thoughts are as follows -

ALL of your sins were forgiven at the cross. Your relationship hindered by unconfessed sin. The only way a child of God can be truly happy is to be walking, moment by moment in a good relationship with the Lord.

crossnote
Mar 3rd 2010, 08:08 PM
I would sum it up by saying the sin which we need repenting of us our lack of faith in Jesus. All our sin stems from that ONE. Here is an example

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
(Mar 9:24)
That's true repentance.

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2010, 08:50 PM
I read this article recently and it has bothered me in certain respects. I would love to hear your thoughts on this conclusions drawn about confession/repentance in this article that I found here http://www.charismaministries.org/do-you-have-to-confess-a-sin-before-it-can-be-forgiven/



1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (NKJV)


When you fellowship with God, do you confess your sins to Him and ask for His forgiveness?
Do you do it every time you pray?
Do you feel guilty if you donít confess and seek forgiveness?
Do you think you have to do this every day?
Do you make a list of every single sin you committed in a day and ask forgiveness for each one or is it a more general confessing and asking?
How do you do it? Do you acknowledge what you did wrong, say sorry, ask forgiveness and then feel that God is happy with you again?
Why? Were you taught to do it?
If so, did you check to see if what you were taught was true or did you just swallow it hook line and sinker?
Is confession and asking forgiveness your idea of repentance?

Did you answer Ďyesí to a few of these questions? If you did, you really need to read the further and answer a few more questions for your own benefit.


Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. (NKJV)
Wouldnít it be awesome if God didnít impute our sin to us? We wouldnít need to confess or ask forgiveness anymore if God stopped holding our sins against us. We would be blessed for sure as this verse says. But God is a just and righteous judge, so it is wouldnít be possible for Him to not count our sins against us, right? Wrong!


2 Cor 5:19 that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, (NKJV)
It seems like God isnít imputing our sins to us if we are in Christ. Now if He is not holding our sins against us, are we blessed as Romans 4:8 says? Of course. So what sins do you need to confess if God is not charging you with any of them?


Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (NKJV)
So Jesus is the end of the law of righteousness, the end of the measure of right standing before God based on a personís moral performance, a personís ability to keep the law. If He ended the law, meaning it is not applicable any longer, why should I keep measuring myself according to it? Easy, I shouldnít and I donít.


Rom 4:15 the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. (NKJV)


Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law (NKJV)
Many people believe when we sin we deserve Godís wrath because we broke His laws. But sin is only sin if there is a measure that defines what it is. That measure was the law and it has come to an end. Where there is no law, no transgressions are counted against us. If no transgressions are imputed, there is no need to confess them since there arenít any to confess. If there arenít any sins held against us that we need to confess, we also donít need to worry about Godís wrath. There is only wrath when transgressions are counted. If no sin is counted against you, you also do not need to ask forgiveness. But how can all this be? How can God just end the law and not count peopleís sins against them any longer?


2 Cor 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NKJV)
Jesus was made into sin for you. God counted every single wretched vile sin of every single person throughout time and history against Jesus. All the wicked rebellious sin of the entre world was tied together in one person in one place at one time and that gave God the opportunity to punish all sin in one go. All the wrath God had against all the sin of the entire human race, was poured out completely on Jesus and He was put to death.


Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, (NKJV)
One sacrifice paid for all sins FOREVER. So if it is paid for, it is dealt with. How many of your sins were included in sins Jesus died for? All of them? If you said yes, then donít you think God knew every sin you would ever commit and remembered to count all of them against Jesus? If He already counted your sin against Jesus and poured out His wrath, then He doesnít need to do the same thing for you. If He counts your sin against you and Jesus, then Jesus died for nothing. Since He doesnít count them against us, stop trying to count them against yourself by confessing them to God.


At the point of salvation, we merely accepted and believed that Christ took our punishment already. When we believed that, we were reborn and created as new beings. We were made the righteousness of God in Christ. All our unrighteousness was taken away and we now have the same right standing before God as Jesus has. How can that be? Because when Jesus became sin for us, the righteousness He had from perfectly keeping the law, was given as a free gift to all mankind.

Rom 5:18-19 Therefore, as through one manís offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Manís righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one manís disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Manís obedience many will be made righteous. (NKJV)
In light of this, let us look again at 1 John 1:9.


1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (NKJV)


Have you been cleansed from all unrighteousness? Yes. So if you have been cleansed, does that mean you have been forgiven? Logically, yes. If you were forgiven, when did you confess your sins? The day you said, ďJesus, I canít do this. I trust You to save me.Ē That was your confession. Now that you know God doesnít count your sins against you anymore, you can also stop counting them. God did His job perfectly. Just trust Him.


But what about sinning again after salvation? That doesnít change the fact that ALL your sins were forgiven already. You donít need to confess ďnewĒ sins. When you do, all you are saying is that God apparently forgot to count those ones against Jesus. Since Jesus isnít going to die again, you have a problem if God messed up and forgot to count even one of your sins against Jesus. Rest assured that God didnít mess up. He forgave ALL your sin, even the ones you are going to commit tomorrow. Does that mean I can just go out and sin? Technically yes, but just remember that Jesus removed the punishment, the eternal separation sin brought between us and God. He didnít remove the consequence of sin. If I cheat on my wife, the consequence is that my marriage is over. If I steal or murder, the consequence is that I go to jail and become an outcast from society. Does that mean God is punishing me? No. It means I sowed destruction in my own life. The thief on the cross next to Jesus was forgiven but he still stayed and died on his cross. Jesusí sacrifice didnít make you immune against consequence, it made you immune from ever falling out of right standing before God.


Thatís enough for now. I have already given you enough reasons to go thank God for being so awesome!


Glory to Glory!
Cornel Marais


My friend,

I have read that article and it is fraught with enough error to write a few posts. The logic flawed. It is simply an idea based on Scripture taken out of context.

JohnDB
Mar 4th 2010, 03:01 AM
Hey,,,I can't read any post that long at the moment...my eyes will bleed.

But...if you are saying that God will forgive sins that we don't know we have...

You would be correct in that.

Job didn't sin...
He was a righteous man and God prospered him because he followed the Law...nor did he allow sin in his house.

But...when he got a vision of God's sinlessness/goodness...he despised himself for all he was...(before he got his troubles)

So...I am going to agree with that notion.

Dani H
Mar 4th 2010, 05:54 AM
The issue isn't God's willingness to forgive. The issue is our willingness to repent, and forsake the sin. God's hand remains extended. It's up to us to take it and receive forgiveness and be cleansed from unrighteousness.

I can forgive a person who has sinned against me without them asking for it. But they're going to continue being stuck in their sin until they repent. And the cleansing only happens after the asking for forgiveness and the willingness to go and sin no more.

On the other hand, I can choose to not forgive, yet that person can turn to God and find cleansing after they ask His forgiveness and are willing to repent and forsake that sin.

So you see that forgiveness is only one aspect. The cleansing from unrighteousness is mentioned in the same sentence and only happens after repentance. Yet we like to get hung up on the first part of the sentence and don't often mention the other, which is where people get confused. :)

Sirus
Mar 4th 2010, 06:19 AM
I just skimmed it. I'll read it tomorrow (out of time). If it is just saying believers in a relationship with God do not have to confess their sin, it is correct. What bothered you specifically?
1Jo 1:9 clearly says if we confess/ he will forgive.
So no one can say we are forgiven all sin!!! It says we are not! Right?
Wrong!
If we say we are forgiven all sin then 1Jo 1:9 cannot mean continue to confess after becoming a believer. This is correct.
Other wise
If we say we are not forgiven all sin then 1Jo 1:9 means we must continue to confess after becoming a believer. This is incorrect.

"If we" in 1Jo 1 is Greek Third Class Condition.
1John is a contrast themed book written for the purpose of informing a seduced church how they can know who is saved and who is not.
1Jn 1:8, 10 is one that did not bow at the cross.
1Jn 1:7, 9 is one that did.

It seems I got started and couldn't stop.....oh well :)

Sirus
Mar 4th 2010, 07:00 AM
still going (worked 15 hours and have another 15 tomorrow -good night)

Greek Third Class Condition
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=greek+third+class+condition&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=greek+third+class+condition+1Jo+1&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

My heart's Desire
Mar 4th 2010, 07:07 AM
I just skimmed it. I'll read it tomorrow (out of time). If it is just saying believers in a relationship with God do not have to confess their sin, it is correct. What bothered you specifically?
1Jo 1:9 clearly says if we confess/ he will forgive.
So no one can say we are forgiven all sin!!! It says we are not! Right?
Wrong!
If we say we are forgiven all sin then 1Jo 1:9 cannot mean continue to confess after becoming a believer. This is correct.
Other wise
If we say we are not forgiven all sin then 1Jo 1:9 means we must continue to confess after becoming a believer. This is incorrect.

"If we" in 1Jo 1 is Greek Third Class Condition.
1John is a contrast themed book written for the purpose of informing a seduced church how they can know who is saved and who is not.
1Jn 1:8, 10 is one that did not bow at the cross.
1Jn 1:7, 9 is one that did.

It seems I got started and couldn't stop.....oh well :)

I've always heard that if our sin has been forgiven at the Cross and no longer held against us, then what sin is there left to confess since God has already forgiven us? People say "don't ask God to forgive but thank Him that He already did. Speaking about 1 John we notice even in the first chapter that the book is about fellowship. And I think what goes along with that is like when Jesus said that people who had a bath only needed their feet washed for they were already clean. Jesus is clear that He is the One who has made people clean.
But in daily life, our feet get dirty. Perhaps clean people confess their sin to get their feet washed!
People say we should confess in order to be restored to fellowship as one would in a human relationship, but even then I have to ask, If there is only remission of sin through shed blood then does Christ have to shed His blood every time I sin? I think not.

Butch5
Mar 4th 2010, 02:35 PM
I've always heard that if our sin has been forgiven at the Cross and no longer held against us, then what sin is there left to confess since God has already forgiven us? People say "don't ask God to forgive but thank Him that He already did. Speaking about 1 John we notice even in the first chapter that the book is about fellowship. And I think what goes along with that is like when Jesus said that people who had a bath only needed their feet washed for they were already clean. Jesus is clear that He is the One who has made people clean.
But in daily life, our feet get dirty. Perhaps clean people confess their sin to get their feet washed!
People say we should confess in order to be restored to fellowship as one would in a human relationship, but even then I have to ask, If there is only remission of sin through shed blood then does Christ have to shed His blood every time I sin? I think not.

H MHD,

One who is in relationship with God should confess sins. That is why John says if we confess our sins. Every sin that you will commit in the future has not been pre-forgiven. The cross made the way of forgiveness possible it did not make automatic application of forgiveness. Both Peter and Paul address the issue of forgiven sins and both say that at baptism one is forgiven of their "Old" sins. It is past sins that are forgiven not future. Future sins are dealt with as the happen.


2 Peter 1:9 ( KJV )
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV )
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

windwords7
Mar 4th 2010, 04:59 PM
I guess what troubles me the most is the idea that finished work of the Cross some how negates our part in truly caring about when and how we are transgressing. I see repentance as a life long endeavor, like an onion that is being peeled back layer by layer, and I believe we have a false idea of grace running rampant in much of the Church.

Grace does give us confidence, but it is critical that it is confidence after we repent. If we have confidence before we repent, it is a false teaching on grace. This kind of message minimizes the work of Christ. He loves us in our weakness while we are sincerely seeking to obey Him. We do really need to emphasize the reality of each of us having confidence before God, because that is a vast and weighty subject, and a very important one. But we do not want to be confident before God in a false way.

So much of what I hear today seeks to make Grace something which makes us comfortable while we are sinning. "Grace is that which God gives us, that when we sin, the grace of God convinces us to repent of it, and it does give us confidence to have a new beginning right now—today, this minute—and we can be first-class citizens in His kingdom that very hour. So grace does give us confidence, but it is critical that it is confidence after we repent. If we have confidence before we repent, it is a false teaching on grace. "

Any grace message that makes you comfortable with God while continuing in your sin is false. This distortion empowers compromise and passivity while giving us confidence that God is smiling at us. Repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand. God smiles at us but He hates our sin. He paid an incredible price to deal with that sin.

I have come to believe that I had/have become incredibly deceived on this issue using grace and the finished work of the Cross as an excuse for sin and lazy living. The last several weeks have been like waking up from a long sleep where this deception clouded everything.

Butch5
Mar 4th 2010, 05:10 PM
I guess what troubles me the most is the idea that finished work of the Cross some how negates our part in truly caring about when and how we are transgressing. I see repentance as a life long endeavor, like an onion that is being peeled back layer by layer, and I believe we have a false idea of grace running rampant in much of the Church.

Grace does give us confidence, but it is critical that it is confidence after we repent. If we have confidence before we repent, it is a false teaching on grace. This kind of message minimizes the work of Christ. He loves us in our weakness while we are sincerely seeking to obey Him. We do really need to emphasize the reality of each of us having confidence before God, because that is a vast and weighty subject, and a very important one. But we do not want to be confident before God in a false way.

So much of what I hear today seeks to make Grace something which makes us comfortable while we are sinning. "Grace is that which God gives us, that when we sin, the grace of God convinces us to repent of it, and it does give us confidence to have a new beginning right now—today, this minute—and we can be first-class citizens in His kingdom that very hour. So grace does give us confidence, but it is critical that it is confidence after we repent. If we have confidence before we repent, it is a false teaching on grace. "

Any grace message that makes you comfortable with God while continuing in your sin is false. This distortion empowers compromise and passivity while giving us confidence that God is smiling at us. Repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand. God smiles at us but He hates our sin. He paid an incredible price to deal with that sin.

I have come to believe that I had/have become incredibly deceived on this issue using grace and the finished work of the Cross as an excuse for sin and lazy living. The last several weeks have been like waking up from a long sleep where this deception clouded everything.

That's a place I was in the past. Grace is not a license to sin though many use for that purpose.

Frecs
Mar 4th 2010, 05:36 PM
I do not agree with that article on a number of points and levels. Rather than going point by point, I'll just respond in general.

Is it true that our sins were nailed to the cross? Thank God, YES! That does not mean that I don't need to confess and repent of my transgressions. It should grieve my heart that I sin. I should and do desire never to sin but I also acknowledge (as did Paul) that that which I do not want to do, I do. Thus, I regularly go to my Father and confess my sins and express my heartfelt intent to never do it again.

A loving father disciplines his children. Our Loving Father disciplines us as well. When we do wrong, it is not just the natural consequences we will experience but our Father's discipline. Am I saying that God will take away our salvation? NO. God will never leave us or forsake us. But, He wants us to mature and grow in our faith. (And, while He won't leave us, WE can leave HIM.)

Sirus
Mar 5th 2010, 04:57 AM
I've always heard that if our sin has been forgiven at the Cross and no longer held against us, then what sin is there left to confess since God has already forgiven us? People say "don't ask God to forgive but thank Him that He already did. Speaking about 1 John we notice even in the first chapter that the book is about fellowship.The Bible is about fellowship, and yes, as I said, the book is written.....

1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
However we miss this is being accomplished in a contrast themed book and we have made a confession doctrine out of contrasting verses simply meant show who is of God and who is not. The book is about what Christ taught concerning who is of God and who is not.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
What you read after this is what they learned of Christ.


And I think what goes along with that is like when Jesus said that people who had a bath only needed their feet washed for they were already clean. Jesus is clear that He is the One who has made people clean.
But in daily life, our feet get dirty. Perhaps clean people confess their sin to get their feet washed! Yes, but it is not at all needed for cleanliness because as Jesus said they are completely clean. Now if Jesus said you are completely clean and washing the feet has no bearing on your cleanliness, how can a verse that says if you confess I will forgive, apply? The confession is for forgiveness even though everyone will say that's not what they do it. Well if that's not why you do it fine, then you cannot use 1Jo 1:9 as a reason for doing it. It is reserved for forgiveness. Plain and simple.


People say we should confess in order to be restored to fellowship as one would in a human relationship, but even then I have to ask, If there is only remission of sin through shed blood then does Christ have to shed His blood every time I sin? I think not.Exactly! He shed His blood once, and it is sufficient forever, therefore makes us clean forever (cleanseth).

Sirus
Mar 5th 2010, 05:18 AM
H MHD,

One who is in relationship with God should confess sins. That is why John says if we confess our sins. Every sin that you will commit in the future has not been pre-forgiven. The cross made the way of forgiveness possible it did not make automatic application of forgiveness. Both Peter and Paul address the issue of forgiven sins and both say that at baptism one is forgiven of their "Old" sins. It is past sins that are forgiven not future. Future sins are dealt with as the happen.


2 Peter 1:9 ( KJV )
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV )
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;One cannot be sanctified, holy, perfect, clean, etc "in Christ".....if they have or even can have unforgiven sin. It just doesn't work.

Peter and Paul addressed no such thing. What Peter addressed is someone that lacked patience (v6) -did not hold fast, or endure. They believed a while and fell away from the confidence of the gospel. It's someone that is 'barren and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ' and are blind. The key word you are missing here besides biblical definition of patience, which is not how we use the word today, is "was". He was purged. Old because he is not any longer. The blood continually cleanses us as we continually believe and endure with patience. So it's not automatic. No one said it was. We confess our need for Christ having faith in Him and what He did for us. We continue to do so til the end.

Paul is contrasting law vs grace and introducing Justification. Context!

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Sirus
Mar 5th 2010, 06:11 AM
I guess what troubles me the most is the idea that finished work of the Cross some how negates our part in truly caring about when and how we are transgressing.That IS very troubling. Certainly not the behavior of a believer. Who is suggesting this?


I see repentance as a life long endeavor, like an onion that is being peeled back layer by layer,Repentance means change your mind. When you do what you don't want to do, you do not have to change your mind. You sinned in the state of repentance. Can you show me this "repentance as a life long endeavor" in scripture? No! Just the opposite! Repentance (work) is what we do when we are babes on milk needing to go on unto maturity (Heb 5-6). You already know what to do and what not to do. You serve the moral law of God with the mind. What you need to know is how to perform that which is good.


and I believe we have a false idea of grace running rampant in much of the Church.Agree! Yet, forgiveness is just a part of grace. Grace is unmerited divine assistance for sanctification and salvation. In the realm of sin it is your crucifixion with Christ (He died for your sin so you could die to your sin) making you dead to sin and alive to God -a new creature. That when you believe this gospel you will not sin when tempted because you will believe you are dead to sin and do not have to sin or want to sin.


Grace does give us confidence, but it is critical that it is confidence after we repent. If we have confidence before we repent, it is a false teaching on grace.Of course Christ and His cross gives us confidence. It's the only thing man can glory in. It's the only thing that causes us to change our mind and turn to God to be saved.


This kind of message minimizes the work of Christ.Sure does! Neither it or what you have said is biblical grace and repentance. I have sat here and watched everyone in this thread use repentance in our walk, which is not biblical, except for in babes that do not know who they are in Christ.


So much of what I hear today seeks to make Grace something which makes us comfortable while we are sinning.

Any grace message that makes you comfortable with God while continuing in your sin is false.Again, very true, but do you expect less from an apostate church?


Repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand.Yep. Happened when you heard the gospel and bowed at the cross.


I have come to believe that I had/have become incredibly deceived on this issue using grace and the finished work of the Cross as an excuse for sin and lazy living. The last several weeks have been like waking up from a long sleep where this deception clouded everything.All too common. It's very sad you've been so mislead. But now you realize there's an error, and the error is not that we do not have to confess sin in order to be forgiven. The error is not knowing (grace/the gospel -you are dead/don't sin) how to perform that which is good and thinking you have to change your mind that is already changed.

Butch5
Mar 5th 2010, 01:38 PM
Sirus----One cannot be sanctified, holy, perfect, clean, etc "in Christ".....if they have or even can have unforgiven sin. It just doesn't work.


Reference???



Peter and Paul addressed no such thing. What Peter addressed is someone that lacked patience (v6) -did not hold fast, or endure. They believed a while and fell away from the confidence of the gospel. It's someone that is 'barren and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ' and are blind.




The key word you are missing here besides biblical definition of patience, which is not how we use the word today, is "was". He was purged. Old because he is not any longer. The blood continually cleanses us as we continually believe and endure with patience. So it's not automatic. No one said it was. We confess our need for Christ having faith in Him and what He did for us. We continue to do so til the end.

If it is impossible for a believer to have sin, how then is it possible for a believer to fall away.


Paul is contrasting law vs grace and introducing Justification. Context!

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


"A propitiation for sins that are past." It is seems pretty clear.

windwords7
Mar 5th 2010, 04:44 PM
Repentance means change your mind. When you do what you don't want to do, you do not have to change your mind. You sinned in the state of repentance. Can you show me this "repentance as a life long endeavor" in scripture? No! Just the opposite! Repentance (work) is what we do when we are babes on milk needing to go on unto maturity (Heb 5-6). You already know what to do and what not to do. You serve the moral law of God with the mind. What you need to know is how to perform that which is good.

Revelation 2:4-5 "Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."

Clearly Jesus' words set the precedent for repentance in the Church post resurrection and post salvation. But the premise of sin for the believer shifts away from transgressing moral law to sinning in regards to love.

For the believer, repentance and asking forgiveness is not about being "unsperated" from God its about restoring intimacy in my/our relationship to God that has been injured. I am still married to my wife though I may hurt her with my words and/or actions. However I do need to think in a new way and ask her forgiveness for how I injured her heart. I am motivated to do this not because of law, but because of Love. When I live according to the flesh I injure my heart connection to God. That can be dealt with quickly or prolonged but eventually Jesus holds us accountable about our love as seen in the passage in Revelation.

In my estimation there is a lot of repenting and doing "what you did at first" that needs to happen in the hearts of His people in the earth today.

Sirus
Mar 6th 2010, 01:14 AM
Reference???Funny! :rofl:


If it is impossible for a believer to have sin, how then is it possible for a believer to fall away.unbelief


"A propitiation for sins that are past." It is seems pretty clear.sure does, out of context.

Sirus
Mar 6th 2010, 03:20 AM
Revelation 2:4-5 "Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."

Clearly Jesus' words set the precedent for repentance in the Church post resurrection and post salvation.What are we talking about here? Are we talking about you hearing you don't have to confess your sin in your walk and trying it, or a church that no longer had faith among them -love to the saints- and are threatened with removal of light?

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;...............
........
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
We could bring up Simon the sorcerer, the fornicator at Corinth, or the prodigal son as well, but I didn't think those nearing apostasy, denying the faith, blaspheming His name etc...was the topic. Repentance is certainly needed in these situations. Jesus' words here do set a precedence for these, but I thought we were talking about believers trying to walk by faith in the knowledge they have.


But the premise of sin for the believer shifts away from transgressing moral law to sinning in regards to love.There is no difference.


For the believer, repentance and asking forgiveness is not about being "unsperated" from God its about restoring intimacy in my/our relationship to God that has been injured.Can someone with unforgiven sin can still be joined to the Lord?

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Read it an accept it for what it says, not what you want it to say. You cannot get around 'if we confess' --> 'he will forgive'. You just can't. Why is it the name of the thread?

The first love and first works in Rev 2 is the substance and evidence that is the result of having faith in Christ that is seen through their love to all the saints. Jesus said they didn't have that anymore, and if you don't love the brethren can you say you love God?

1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
.......
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
......
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
..........
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
.........
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
.........
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
..........
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
..........
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
.........
1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
........
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
.......
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
........
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

I am still married to my wife though I may hurt her with my words and/or actions. However I do need to think in a new way and ask her forgiveness for how I injured her heart. I am motivated to do this not because of law, but because of Love.Since it is a new way, you didn't know any better when you hurt her. This is not applicable to the discussion. We do what we don't want to do, knowing we should not do it. Also, your wife did not die for sin. Jesus did.


When I live according to the flesh I injure my heart connection to God. That can be dealt with quickly or prolonged but eventually Jesus holds us accountable about our love as seen in the passage in Revelation. Not sure how you are using 'live according to the flesh'. If that is your life, I agree, and we see Rev 2. I was under the impression you knew what you should do but didn't know how.


In my estimation there is a lot of repenting and doing "what you did at first" that needs to happen in the hearts of His people in the earth today.Again, I agree, in today's apostasy.

VerticalReality
Mar 6th 2010, 03:28 AM
I believe all a Christian's sin (past, present and future) has been forgiven in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Butch5
Mar 6th 2010, 09:04 PM
Sirus-Funny! :rofl:

No reference numbers on opinions?




unbelief

Which I will assume you are going to say is not a sin???


sure does, out of context.

No out of context, just doesn't fit your theology.

Sirus
Mar 6th 2010, 10:01 PM
No reference numbers on opinions?Well, if you would like to attempt to show the Church how we can have unforgiven sin and be in Christ, be my guest.


Which I will assume you are going to say is not a sin???Why would you assume anyone would say something so absurd?


No out of context, just doesn't fit your theology.Of course it doesn't. The question is, how could it fit anyones? If I am only forgiven my past sins, the responsibilty of forgivness for sins afterward rest partly on me, giving me a part in my forgivness. That's not Bible friend.

Butch5
Mar 6th 2010, 11:19 PM
[QUOTE]Well, if you would like to attempt to show the Church how we can have unforgiven sin and be in Christ, be my guest.

You made the statement my friend, the burden of proof is yours


Why would you assume anyone would say something so absurd?

If not then please explain how one can fall away.


Of course it doesn't. The question is, how could it fit anyone's? If I am only forgiven my past sins, the responsibility of forgiveness for sins afterward rest partly on me, giving me a part in my forgiveness. That's not Bible friend.

Well, my friend I suggest you research. You will find that it is in fact Bible? You were forgiven your past sins at baptism, that is why John says "IF" we confess our sins, He is just to forgive us our sins.


1 Peter 1:22 ( KJV )
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Sirus
Mar 6th 2010, 11:49 PM
You made the statement my friend, the burden of proof is yoursNo Butch it was you, and only you in this thread, that said....and I quote

"Every sin that you will commit in the future has not been pre-forgiven."
The burden of proof is yours. You seem to be all alone here so please enlighten us.


If not then please explain how one can fall away.I did. Unbelief.


Well, my friend I suggest you research. You will find that it is in fact Bible? You were forgiven your past sins at baptism, that is why John says "IF" we confess our sins, He is just to forgive us our sins.Do yourself a favor Butch, go read 1John, find as many new NT doctrines and new commandments as you can being establish or verified, then come back and let us know what you have found, oh and be sure to do this for all the times he says "if we" as well. It's not a doctrine teaching establishing book. That's not why it was written. It tells us why it was written, and it's not for one lone verse to be used to establish some new doctrine not taught anywhere else.


1 Peter 1:22 ( KJV )
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:I don't know why you think this is relevant to your argument. It says their hearts were purified by faith (truth through the Spirit)

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Butch5
Mar 7th 2010, 12:10 AM
No Butch it was you, and only you in this thread, that said....and I quote

"Every sin that you will commit in the future has not been pre-forgiven."
The burden of proof is yours. You seem to be all alone here so please enlighten us.

Come man own up to your statement. The statement under discussion is this.


Sirus---One cannot be sanctified, holy, perfect, clean, etc "in Christ".....if they have or even can have unforgiven sin. It just doesn't work.

I have asked several times for a reference and as yet have gotten none, therefore i must conclude that it is an opinion.


I did. Unbelief.

Which you implied was sin, if it is, how can your above statement be true?


Do yourself a favor Butch, go read 1John, find as many new NT doctrines and new commandments as you can being establish or verified, then come back and let us know what you have found, oh and be sure to do this for all the times he says "if we" as well. It's not a doctrine teaching establishing book. That's not why it was written. It tells us why it was written, and it's not for one lone verse to be used to establish some new doctrine not taught anywhere else.

I see if goes against you what you believe it is not a doctrinal book? Got ya.

1 John 1:1-3 ( KJV )
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.



I don't know why you think this is relevant to your argument. It says their hearts were purified by faith (truth through the Spirit)

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Simple, the two verse you quoted speak of God purifying the verse I posted speaks of the Christian purifying their own souls. Notice it was by obeying the truth.

Sirus
Mar 7th 2010, 04:46 AM
Come man own up to your statement. The statement under discussion is this.

I have asked several times for a reference and as yet have gotten none, therefore i must conclude that it is an opinion.The question of the thread is do we need to confess our sins for them to be forgiven?
The verse in question says if we confess we will be forgiven, yet everyone but you maintains all sin is forgiven. Then you said, "Every sin that you will commit in the future has not been pre-forgiven."". His sacrifice is not a daily sacrifice of animals for sin continually. It was done once for all sin for those that put and keep their faith in Him. We have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. God for Christ's sake has forgiven us. We have been translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. As we received Christ, so we are to walk in him -by faith- because of what He did -we are complete in Him. We are not to let any man beguile us or spoil us of our reward by voluntary humility and tradition because He has made us alive together with him (in Christ), having forgiven us all trespasses.

You say there is a chance we could have an unforgiven sin that we forgot to confess that will damn us. If we remember them all we can saved. If this was true the apostles would have very clearly and repeatedly warned us. They didn't. Instead they warn us to continue to believe. Again, here you are with your works based salvation. No thank you! How much time should we allow for all this confession Butch? What burden of man. Babes in Christ would spend hours everyday confessing sin or they'd be damned. How horrible if we forget one.


Which you implied was sin, if it is, how can your above statement be true?If someone does not believe they are not in Christ.


I see if goes against you what you believe it is not a doctrinal book? Got ya.

1 John 1:1-3 ( KJV )
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. Why did you quote this?


Simple, the two verse you quoted speak of God purifying the verse I posted speaks of the Christian purifying their own souls. Notice it was by obeying the truth.Like God crucifying us and we have crucified the flesh through belief. Same thing. Obeying the truth is being saved by faith and grace alone. God does it, says it, we believe it (obedience of faith).

Butch5
Mar 7th 2010, 07:30 PM
Sirus---The question of the thread is do we need to confess our sins for them to be forgiven?The verse in question says if we confess we will be forgiven, yet everyone but you maintains all sin is forgiven. Then you said, "Every sin that you will commit in the future has not been pre-forgiven."". His sacrifice is not a daily sacrifice of animals for sin continually. It was done once for all sin for those that put and keep their faith in Him. We have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. God for Christ's sake has forgiven us. We have been translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. As we received Christ, so we are to walk in him -by faith- because of what He did -we are complete in Him. We are not to let any man beguile us or spoil us of our reward by voluntary humility and tradition because He has made us alive together with him (in Christ), having forgiven us all trespasses.

Well, I see that you are not going to address your statement. You made this statement,


Sirus---One cannot be sanctified, holy, perfect, clean, etc "in Christ".....if they have or even can have unforgiven sin. It just doesn't work.

I have asked several times now for Scriptural support. Instead you have gone on to other topics.
Again, do you have Scriptural support for this claim?


Sirus---The verse in question says if we confess we will be forgiven, yet everyone but you maintains all sin is forgiven.

You struggle because you make assumptions. Have you questioned everyone to see if I am the only one who says that sins are not pre-forgiven?

Colossians 2:13 ( KJV )
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here is the passage you quoted. Having forgiven you all trespasses, OK, so at their baptism all of their sins were forgiven. However, they will commit future sins, these future sins were not forgiven when they were baptized. This can be clearly seen in Peterís own words.

Acts 3:19-20 ( KJV )
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
And Jesusí words

Matthew 6:14-15 ( KJV )
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:24-26 ( KJV )
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37 ( KJV )
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Tell me, If all future sins were pre- forgiven how could Christ make these statements? IF all future sins were pre-forgiven, then the only way Christ could make statements such as these is if God was not true to His word. IF all of your future sins are now already forgiven, then either Christís statement isnít true or God would have to go back on His word. I believe most Christians would hold that both Christ and God are true. The only option left is that all of your future sins are not pre-forgiven. Which we saw with Peter's statement of sins being blotted out at the time of refreshing.

1 John 1:9-10 ( KJV )
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
What Possible reason would John have to make such a statement if future sins were already forgiven?



Sirus---You say there is a chance we could have an unforgiven sin that we forgot to confess that will damn us. If we remember them all we can saved. If this was true the apostles would have very clearly and repeatedly warned us. They didn't. Instead they warn us to continue to believe. Again, here you are with your works based salvation. No thank you! How much time should we allow for all this confession Butch? What burden of man. Babes in Christ would spend hours everyday confessing sin or they'd be damned. How horrible if we forget one.

It seems to me the reason you struggle is, you read a post, make assumptions and then argue against the assumptions. I have not made a single statement that would resemble what you have stated here.
This a logical fallacy, it is a straw man. We have been here before.



Sirus---If someone does not believe they are not in Christ.

Again, not addressing the issue. If unbelief is a sin how can a person fall away because of unbelief if they cannot have sin?



Sirus---Like God crucifying us and we have crucified the flesh through belief. Same thing. Obeying the truth is being saved by faith and grace alone. God does it, says it, we believe it (obedience of faith).

The truth is the Gospel, the truth that Peter preached. Among other things is included, repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. So, they did have a part in the forgiveness of their sins.

Sirus
Mar 7th 2010, 08:32 PM
Well, I see that you are not going to address your statement. You made this statement,Everything I just said that you just quoted is scripture for it Butch.


Have you questioned everyone to see if I am the only one who says that sins are not pre-forgiven?I haven't noticed anyone else in this thread.

I'll have to look at the rest of your post later.

Sirus
Mar 7th 2010, 09:16 PM
Colossians 2:13 ( KJV )
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here is the passage you quoted. Having forgiven you all trespasses, OK, so at their baptism all of their sins were forgiven. However, they will commit future sins, these future sins were not forgiven when they were baptized. This can be clearly seen in Peter’s own words.

Acts 3:19-20 ( KJV )
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Like I said, here we are again at your works based salvation. Buried with Him in baptism here is the circumcision of Christ made without hands. It's being baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit at Christ's crucifixion. As we all know you disagree. This is the reason you struggle with the fact that all sin is forgiven.


And Jesus’ words

Matthew 6:14-15 ( KJV )
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:24-26 ( KJV )
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37 ( KJV )
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Tell me, If all future sins were pre- forgiven how could Christ make these statements? IF all future sins were pre-forgiven, then the only way Christ could make statements such as these is if God was not true to His word. IF all of your future sins are now already forgiven, then either Christ’s statement isn’t true or God would have to go back on His word. I believe most Christians would hold that both Christ and God are true. The only option left is that all of your future sins are not pre-forgiven. Which we saw with Peter's statement of sins being blotted out at the time of refreshing.If you do not have the love of God in you, you are not born of God and therefore are not forgiven. Very simple.


1 John 1:9-10 ( KJV )
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
What Possible reason would John have to make such a statement if future sins were already forgiven?I've explained this already. If we at the cross acknowledge our need for a savior from our sins we are forgiven and made clean. If we do not acknowledge at the cross our need for a savior from our sins we make Him a liar and the truth of the gospel is not in us.


It seems to me the reason you struggle is, you read a post, make assumptions and then argue against the assumptions. I have not made a single statement that would resemble what you have stated here.
This a logical fallacy, it is a straw man. We have been here before.You are blinded by a works based salvation. What else can I say?


Again, not addressing the issue. If unbelief is a sin how can a person fall away because of unbelief if they cannot have sin?Then must every man ever born be saved because of unbelief. Straw man.


The truth is the Gospel, the truth that Peter preached. Among other things is included, repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. So, they did have a part in the forgiveness of their sins.Peter was preaching to Israel.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
.......
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
.......
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
.........
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

He learned Gentiles are saved and given the Spirit before water baptism at the house of Cornelius. We all know you don't believe this either, though it says it plainly.

Butch5
Mar 8th 2010, 01:53 AM
Everything I just said that you just quoted is scripture for it Butch.

I haven't noticed anyone else in this thread.



I didn't think so.

Sirus
Mar 8th 2010, 01:58 AM
Sure you did. You even quoted one and tried to say the Colossians 2 baptism is a work.

Butch5
Mar 8th 2010, 02:23 AM
Like I said, here we are again at your works based salvation. Buried with Him in baptism here is the circumcision of Christ made without hands. It's being baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit at Christ's crucifixion. As we all know you disagree. This is the reason you struggle with the fact that all sin is forgiven.

You didn't address the issue. In Paul's statement he speaks of sin having been forgiven, past tense, yet in Acts 3 Peter speaks of sin being forgiven in the future tense. If every single one of your future sins have been pre-forgiven please explain what Peter is talking about. He tells his hearers to repent so that their sins may be (future) blotted out when the times of refreshing come from the Lord.


If you do not have the love of God in you, you are not born of God and therefore are not forgiven. Very simple.

That wasn't the question. Did the the apostles have the love of God in them??? Because that is who Jesus is saying it to. He tells Peter that if he does not forgive his sins will not be forgiven. How can all of Peter's future sins be forgiven if Jesus can make such a statement? There are only three options.

1. All of Peter's future sins are not pre-forgiven
2. Christ's statement is incorrect
3. God would not be true to His word.


I've explained this already. If we at the cross acknowledge our need for a savior from our sins we are forgiven and made clean. If we do not acknowledge at the cross our need for a savior from our sins we make Him a liar and the truth of the gospel is not in us.

The problem is that John is not speaking of the cross. He is speaking to believing Christians and he includes himself. He says that if he confesses his sins God is faithful and just to forgive him his sin. What sins would they be if all of his future sins were pre-forgiven?


You are blinded by a works based salvation. What else can I say?

This likewise is a logical fallacy.


Then must every man ever born be saved because of unbelief. Straw man.

That doesn't answer the question, If unbelief is a sin how can a person fall away because of unbelief if they cannot have sin?



Peter was preaching to Israel.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
.......
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
.......
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
.........
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

He learned Gentiles are saved and given the Spirit before water baptism at the house of Cornelius. We all know you don't believe this either, though it says it plainly.

Does the account at the house of Cornelius negate the teaching of the apostle?

If it is your contention that the Gentiles receive the Spirit differently than the Jews can you support this?

Sirus
Mar 8th 2010, 04:29 AM
You didn't address the issue. In Paul's statement he speaks of sin having been forgiven, past tense, yet in Acts 3 Peter speaks of sin being forgiven in the future tense. If every single one of your future sins have been pre-forgiven please explain what Peter is talking about. He tells his hearers to repent so that their sins may be (future) blotted out when the times of refreshing come from the Lord.Where was Peter? He is telling Israel.....
Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly
.....to get in on it. They "denied the Holy One and the Just", they " killed the Prince of life" and though they were ignorant "through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers", they need to get with it because the time is now.


That wasn't the question.Yes it was.


The problem is that John is not speaking of the cross. He is speaking to believing Christians and he includes himself. He says that if he confesses his sins God is faithful and just to forgive him his sin. What sins would they be if all of his future sins were pre-forgiven?He is writing to a church, which always has saved and unsaved in them. They were seduced and confused. They were not seduced by believers in the church, but unbelievers in the church. That's an undeniable fact (still true today). He was setting the record straight. He was in fact talking about the gospel.


That doesn't answer the question, If unbelief is a sin how can a person fall away because of unbelief if they cannot have sin?Unbelief is not just a sin, it a requirement. The only requirement. You can believe for a while and fall away. Jesus said so. Why do you agree with that except when it goes against you?


Does the account at the house of Cornelius negate the teaching of the apostle?Not for Israel.


If it is your contention that the Gentiles receive the Spirit differently than the Jews can you support this?Already did. ...and have in other threads. In all cases where it says repent and be baptized for remission...and receive, it was to Israeli's. That's a fact. One you cannot deny. Other cases involving Gentiles say no such thing. That's a fact. One you cannot deny. Well, you try with a simple claim but you never have and never will provide scripture to prove otherwise.

windwords7
Mar 8th 2010, 04:05 PM
Unconfessed sin that has not been repented of has nothing to do with negating the reality of the Christ's sacrifice and the finished work of the Cross for all sin for every man. I do believe that by faith we play our part in the appropriation of His blood over our transgressions "as we go" not because they are not covered in the finished work of the cross but because we love Him and we have a living relationship with Him. As I said before I am still in covenant with my wife though I can certainly transgress her heart and my obligations to her. To not see the need of repentance in this similar context of our relationship to Christ in the New Covenant feels just plain silly. When I'm proud or stubborn or __________ in these present days I need to repent. So do you. So do us all.

Butch5
Mar 8th 2010, 05:59 PM
Where was Peter? He is telling Israel.....
Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly
.....to get in on it. They "denied the Holy One and the Just", they " killed the Prince of life" and though they were ignorant "through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers", they need to get with it because the time is now.

Yes it was.

He is writing to a church, which always has saved and unsaved in them. They were seduced and confused. They were not seduced by believers in the church, but unbelievers in the church. That's an undeniable fact (still true today). He was setting the record straight. He was in fact talking about the gospel.

Unbelief is not just a sin, it a requirement. The only requirement. You can believe for a while and fall away. Jesus said so. Why do you agree with that except when it goes against you?

Not for Israel.

Already did. ...and have in other threads. In all cases where it says repent and be baptized for remission...and receive, it was to Israeli's. That's a fact. One you cannot deny. Other cases involving Gentiles say no such thing. That's a fact. One you cannot deny. Well, you try with a simple claim but you never have and never will provide scripture to prove otherwise.

OK, there is no point continuing, I see you are not going to answer the questions.

Sirus
Mar 9th 2010, 12:33 AM
Unconfessed sin that has not been repented ofSo what about confessed sin that is not repented?
or
unconfessed sin that is repented?


I do believe that by faith we play our part in the appropriation of His blood over our transgressions "as we go" not because they are not covered in the finished work of the cross but because we love Him and we have a living relationship with Him. Do you believe this because it is what you were taught and it sounds good or because scripture says this? If it is because of scripture, what scripture? I'm serious. Scripture that says to ask for forgiveness even though you are already forgiven because it is effectual in your relationship with God? Where is that NT passage?

I wanted to get to John 13 this past weekend but was detained with baptismal regeneration.


To not see the need of repentance in this similar context of our relationship to Christ in the New Covenant feels just plain silly.What I think is silly is hold a doctrine so tight with no scriptural foundation.

Sirus
Mar 9th 2010, 12:37 AM
OK, there is no point continuing, I see you are not going to answer the questions.What questions did I not answer?

Sirus
Mar 10th 2010, 02:27 PM
I've always heard that if our sin has been forgiven at the Cross and no longer held against us, then what sin is there left to confess since God has already forgiven us? People say "don't ask God to forgive but thank Him that He already did. Speaking about 1 John we notice even in the first chapter that the book is about fellowship. And I think what goes along with that is like when Jesus said that people who had a bath only needed their feet washed for they were already clean. Jesus is clear that He is the One who has made people clean.
But in daily life, our feet get dirty. Perhaps clean people confess their sin to get their feet washed!
People say we should confess in order to be restored to fellowship as one would in a human relationship, but even then I have to ask, If there is only remission of sin through shed blood then does Christ have to shed His blood every time I sin? I think not.Here is the text


Joh 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Joh 13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
Joh 13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Joh 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Note we have water, not blood.

Then notice Jesus said Peter didn't know what he was talking about/what Jesus was doing. Peter was always the first out of the boat and to open his mouth. Almost always wrong but we admire his willingness and boldness.

Then we notice Jesus said 'Peter, if I do not wash your feet you have no part with me'.

Then Peter, who didn't know what Jesus was doing, wants his head and hands washed, and Jesus said they were clean, except Judas, but they need to have their feet washed.

Then Jesus (Lord and Teacher) said that He washed their feet as an example that they should do the same to one another. If you know the servant is not greater than his lord, but it's ok for the lord to serve his servant, as Jesus did, then happy is the one that does the same. Serve one another as I have served you.

IMO, that's all Jesus said here. He said to Peter, 'you don't know but will when I am done'. He asked all of them, 'do you know what I have done to you?' and said it was an example. There's no confession here and no need for confession because they are completely clean.

If you want to extrapolate more from the text then stick to the text. He washed with water, not blood. What does water represent? The Spirit and word -confession of faith/word of faith -Rom 10:8, Rom 10:9, Rom 10:17, which is made at baptism. This keep us in the confines of the text because Jesus said this to baptized disciples and He said they were completely clean. It's water in the text. Blood is not in the text.

We walk with our feet. OK? How then do you apply this to our walk? Well, you could say we walk in the Spirit and the truth of the word. OK, but Jesus said to do it to one another. How do we apply it then? It just doesn't work IMO.

1John 1:9 says confess, blood, forgive. There's no getting around this. There's no mingling it with water and a continual walk or something we do. These two passages have nothing in common except the possible extrapolation of washing by water in John 13 representing Spirit and word -confession of faith/word of faith -Rom 10:8, Rom 10:9, Rom 10:17, which is made at baptism.

So if the work of continual confession is good or necessary for our relationship, and the complete and finished work of Christ is that fragile, what scripture teaches this. If there is none, why do you do it? If you are already forgiven, why do you confess in order to be forgiven?

Again the "need of repentance" was mentioned. I have asked, and ask again, for examples of believers continually repenting of a sin every time they sin. If you are sick because of sin I suggest you repent and confess. If you are on the verge of denying the faith, or have shamed His name, I suggest you repent and confess. I know of these examples.

BadDog
Mar 13th 2010, 07:20 PM
That original article listed in the OP is right-on.

To confess means to agree with God concerning your sin. (To say the same.) Repentance is also a much misunderstood term... don't have time to go there now. Unconfessed sin breaks our fellowship with the Lord. But all of our sin was already paid for. When we trusted in Christ, he declared us to be "righteous." That is what "to justify" means. (DIKAIOW).

BD

BadDog
Mar 13th 2010, 07:42 PM
I just skimmed it. I'll read it tomorrow (out of time). If it is just saying believers in a relationship with God do not have to confess their sin, it is correct. What bothered you specifically?
1Jo 1:9 clearly says if we confess/ he will forgive.
So no one can say we are forgiven all sin!!! It says we are not! Right?
Wrong!
If we say we are forgiven all sin then 1Jo 1:9 cannot mean continue to confess after becoming a believer. This is correct.
Other wise
If we say we are not forgiven all sin then 1Jo 1:9 means we must continue to confess after becoming a believer. This is incorrect.

"If we" in 1Jo 1 is Greek Third Class Condition.
1John is a contrast themed book written for the purpose of informing a seduced church how they can know who is saved and who is not.
1Jn 1:8, 10 is one that did not bow at the cross.
1Jn 1:7, 9 is one that did.

It seems I got started and couldn't stop.....oh well :)
Sirus is spot on:

ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος ἵνα ἀφῇ ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας. [1 John 1:9]

This is a 3rd class conditional statement (probable future or perhaps a universal truth). ἐὰν introduces the "if clause" portion and ὁμολογῶμεν (3rd P pl) is subjunctive - "to confess" or agree with God ("to say the same.") The idea is that if we might confess our sins - which the author anticipates we will do, then we will see that God is faithful and just to forgive us the sins we confessed, and also cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1st clause: τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν - "the sins of us" - hence, "our sins."

Later John says that he is faithful and just to forgive us "the sins" (though it is generally always translated as "our sins.")
τὰς ἁμαρτίας --> "the sins." What sins are these? Well, clearly the sins confessed.

The idea is that when the Spirit brings to our attention sin in our life, we need to 1st agree with God, rather than become defensive and deny the need. We should not become introspective and search for sin - the Spirit does that. Once we confess known-revealed sin, God cleanses our lives from the effects of all sin in our lives - since this hinders and impacts our relationship with the Father and other people as well. We simply confess revealed sin and God forgives us (throws it away) the sin confessed and also cleanses our lives from those things we didn't even confess!

BTW, we are not saved by confessing our sin. We are saved by trusting in Christ. "Confess" is also used in the NT, as we do in English, to mean to acknowledge, as in acknowledging Christ as the Messiah. That is essentially how it is used in Romans 10:9, 10. "If we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation."

But the salvation in Romans 10:9, 10 is not referring to justification alone, but to being saved from the impact of sin in our lives (sanctification).


I have heard people say that this (1 John 1) is speaking about justification, but as Sirus said this is clearly written to believers regardign their walk with Christ. BTW, "to repent" has the root idea also of "to change your mind." (HOMOLOGEW) We are not saved by repenting, except in the sense that we need to recognize our need to be saved (have a "change of mind" experience here) or change our mind regarding who Christ is. In general HOMOLOGEW is used referencing sin, though not always. It is usually used in the NT to refer to what believers need to do. Unbelievers need... to believe. :P

Finally, "to repent" (METANOEW) does not mean to turn from sin... it refers to a change in the mind, heart and attitude of a person. In general, it has to do with sin. Generally a genuine change in the thinking of a person regarding their sin should lead to a desire to turn from it... but EPISTREFW is used to refer to turning from sin in the NT. We are not saved by turning from sin. "Turning over a new leaf" never saved anyone. Faith alone results in God declaring us to be without sin.

BD

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 13th 2010, 11:43 PM
You say there is a chance we could have an unforgiven sin that we forgot to confess that will damn us. If we remember them all we can saved. If this was true the apostles would have very clearly and repeatedly warned us. They didn't. Instead they warn us to continue to believe. Again, here you are with your works based salvation. No thank you! How much time should we allow for all this confession Butch? What burden of man. Babes in Christ would spend hours everyday confessing sin or they'd be damned. How horrible if we forget one.

If someone does not believe they are not in Christ.



I agree with everything Sirus has spoken of in his post...

I underlined that which must be stressed again Butch about your theology..

your theology is DANGEROUS ... I will not mince words when it comes to what you teach...

I have addressed your 'works salvation' along with your 'works theology' in other threads on this website... what you teach and preach is Dangerous!....

I may get reprimanded for being harsh.. but so be it..

I'm not here to 'please man' in his theology and his attempts to percieve the Word..

and it doesnt suprise me at all that there is teaching like this..

even the devil knows Scripture and he comes along whistling a good tune.. twisiting it here and there. to make his point known and deceive....

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees thru your charades....

your teaching is DANGEROUS!

BadDog
Mar 14th 2010, 12:27 AM
I agree with TheBelovedDisciple (John)... to say that not having confessed a sin could damn us is very dangerous! It is also in error. I know of no major theological position which holds to such an idea. (Does anyone here?) It is not Calvinist, Arminian or anywhere inbetween. Christ died for all of our sin. The purpose of confessing sin is not to keep us from dangling over the fires of hell! It is to restore our walk with Christ.

To confess sin biblically is simply to acknowledge we sinned.

BD

Butch5
Mar 14th 2010, 12:29 PM
I agree with TheBelovedDisciple (John)... to say that not having confessed a sin could damn us is very dangerous! It is also in error. I know of no major theological position which holds to such an idea. (Does anyone here?) It is not Calvinist, Arminian or anywhere inbetween. Christ died for all of our sin. The purpose of confessing sin is not to keep us from dangling over the fires of hell! It is to restore our walk with Christ.

To confess sin biblically is simply to acknowledge we sinned.

BD

Hi Bad dog,

How do you reconcile 1 John 8-9?

Butch5
Mar 14th 2010, 12:48 PM
I agree with everything Sirus has spoken of in his post...

I underlined that which must be stressed again Butch about your theology..

your theology is DANGEROUS ... I will not mince words when it comes to what you teach...

I have addressed your 'works salvation' along with your 'works theology' in other threads on this website... what you teach and preach is Dangerous!....

I may get reprimanded for being harsh.. but so be it..

I'm not here to 'please man' in his theology and his attempts to percieve the Word..

and it doesnt suprise me at all that there is teaching like this..

even the devil knows Scripture and he comes along whistling a good tune.. twisiting it here and there. to make his point known and deceive....

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees thru your charades....

your teaching is DANGEROUS!

The problem is that I made none of the above statements. That was an assumption made from my arguments.


Please show me where I have taught anything that has not been supported by Scripture. You see it is the doctrines that you espouse that cannot be supported by Scripture, which I have shown over and over again. If there is twisting of Scripture it is not me who is doing it. I have presented contradiction after contradiction which arise between your doctrines and the Scriptures which neither you nor those who hold to you opinion have explained. You accuse me of works based salvation, yet claim that works are not necessary. As I have pointed out numerous times there is not a single passage of Scripture that says man is saved by faith alone. The only passage of Scripture that states faith alone says a man is not saved by faith alone. This is in contradiction with your doctrine, please explain how your doctrine is Biblical when it contradicts Scripture.

I did a word search that you might want to do. I looked up the word "Judge" in it's different forms in the New Testament. Every occurrence of the "judge" (in it's different forms), when speaking of God judging men, whether believers or unbelievers spoke of judging them based on their deeds. Not a single verse spoke of judging men on what they believed. Can you please explain to me how that can be if works play no role in salvation?

As I said to Mathetes, to hold to the reformed doctrines requires that one throw logic and common sense out the window. I cannot accept contradiction in order to hold to the doctrines of men.

BadDog
Mar 14th 2010, 09:52 PM
I agree with TheBelovedDisciple (John)... to say that not having confessed a sin could damn us is very dangerous! It is also in error. I know of no major theological position which holds to such an idea. (Does anyone here?) It is not Calvinist, Arminian or anywhere inbetween. Christ died for all of our sin. The purpose of confessing sin is not to keep us from dangling over the fires of hell! It is to restore our walk with Christ.

To confess sin biblically is simply to acknowledge we sinned.

BD

Hi Bad dog,

How do you reconcile 1 John 8-9?
Hi Butch,

What's to reconcile? I assume you're referring to vss. 8 & 9 of chapter 1. To say that "to confess sin is simply to acknowledge we sinned" is based on the lexical meaning of the word.

Now you said earlier, "Every sin that you will commit in the future has not been pre-forgiven." I think this is where you disagree with Sirus and I. But that was not what I referred to as dangerous, though I consider it to be in error.

You also quoted from Acts 3, in response to a quote by Sirus of Colossians 2:13:
Acts 3:19-20 ( KJV ) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

But that verse is referring to Jesus Christ being "sent" to those Jews if they trusted in Christ as their Messiah (Christ). It was not confession by some already saved individuals, so how can it apply?

The verses you quoted by Christ do not refer to being forgiven by the Father for eternal life. That is simply an unfounded assumption. The forgiveness is required for restoring that fellowship, which is what 1 John 1 is all about.

Then you said,

1 John 1:9-10 ( KJV )
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
What Possible reason would John have to make such a statement if future sins were already forgiven?
This simply says that if we refuse to confess, to acknowledge our sin, we make God out to be a liar and clearly then His written word is not impacting our lives.

You also said,
You didn't address the issue. In Paul's statement he speaks of sin having been forgiven, past tense, yet in Acts 3 Peter speaks of sin being forgiven in the future tense. If every single one of your future sins have been pre-forgiven please explain what Peter is talking about. He tells his hearers to repent so that their sins may be (future) blotted out when the times of refreshing come from the Lord.
The point is that we have been saved from the penalty of our sins through the death of Christ on the cross. It doesn't make sense that His death would not have covered all of our sin since in 1 John 2 we read that He died for the sin of the entire world. IOW, even the sins of those who have not trusted in Christ have had their penalty paid. The issue is that they have not trusted in Christ for eternal life, as we have.

Now the other text refers to confessing sins so that the effect of our sin does not break fellowship with Christ. We need to have future sin "forgiven" IOT restore our fellowshoip with God. The text in 1 John 1 makes this clear. I'll intersperse my comments:
1 John 1:3-10 what we have seen and heard we also declare to you, so that you may have fellowship along with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
BD: Here we see that the purpose of John's letter was so that the believers to whom he was writing would remain in intimate fellowship with the Godhead.

Now this is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you: God is light, and there is absolutely no darkness in Him. BD: How can we have fellowship with a Holy God and not deal with our daily sin? If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," and walk in darkness,we are lying and are not practicing the truth. But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
BD: The cleansing here is not the forgiveness of some penalty incrued, cause that has been paid. The only thing to prevent us having intimacy with our Lord is not acknowledging our sin. It's automatic. Clearly the context is regarding fellowship with Christ.

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say, "We have not sinned," we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
The opposite of confessing our sin is to say, "We have no sin." Where does it say here that to not have our sin forgiven results in a loss of eternal life?

The real issue I had was with your claim that for a believer to leave a sin unconfessed would damn them. Wow! That's very dangerous. It turns our salvation into salvation by works. It also does not allow a believer to ever have assurance of their salvation, and in chapter 5 of this same letter John said that he wrote this letter so that they would have assurance not based on anything they had done, but based on their having received Christ through faith:

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn't have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

How can we have assurance with a theology that says that if we do not confess EVERY sin we commit, and let's face it, we sin all the time, that we are damned? Can anyone name a theological position which holds to such a thing?

Thx, Butch,

BD

Butch5
Mar 15th 2010, 12:51 AM
Hi Butch,

What's to reconcile? I assume you're referring to vss. 8 & 9 of chapter 1. To say that "to confess sin is simply to acknowledge we sinned" is based on the lexical meaning of the word.

Now you said earlier, "Every sin that you will commit in the future has not been pre-forgiven." I think this is where you disagree with Sirus and I. But that was not what I referred to as dangerous, though I consider it to be in error.

How is it in error? Was Peter also in error?


2 Peter 1:5-11 ( KJV )
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Or Paul?

Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV )
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



Baddog---You also quoted from Acts 3, in response to a quote by Sirus of Colossians 2:13:

Acts 3:19-20 ( KJV ) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

But that verse is referring to Jesus Christ being "sent" to those Jews if they trusted in Christ as their Messiah (Christ). It was not confession by some already saved individuals, so how can it apply?

Oh, so everyone else's sins were pre-forgiven but these particular Jews have to wait for Christ to return to have their sins forgiven??? Sorry I'm not buying that one.


Baddog---The verses you quoted by Christ do not refer to being forgiven by the Father for eternal life. That is simply an unfounded assumption. The forgiveness is required for restoring that fellowship, which is what 1 John 1 is all about.

It's simply unfounded? What evidence would support your claim?


Baddog---Then you said,

This simply says that if we refuse to confess, to acknowledge our sin, we make God out to be a liar and clearly then His written word is not impacting our lives.

You also said,
The point is that we have been saved from the penalty of our sins through the death of Christ on the cross. It doesn't make sense that His death would not have covered all of our sin since in 1 John 2 we read that He died for the sin of the entire world. IOW, even the sins of those who have not trusted in Christ have had their penalty paid. The issue is that they have not trusted in Christ for eternal life, as we have.

I wasn't able to find where I made either of these statements could you please show me where you found them?


Baddog---Now the other text refers to confessing sins so that the effect of our sin does not break fellowship with Christ. We need to have future sin "forgiven" IOT restore our fellowship with God. The text in 1 John 1 makes this clear. I'll intersperse my comments:

1 John 1:3-10 what we have seen and heard we also declare to you, so that you may have fellowship along with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
BD: Here we see that the purpose of John's letter was so that the believers to whom he was writing would remain in intimate fellowship with the Godhead.

Now this is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you: God is light, and there is absolutely no darkness in Him. BD: How can we have fellowship with a Holy God and not deal with our daily sin? If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," and walk in darkness,we are lying and are not practicing the truth. But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
BD: The cleansing here is not the forgiveness of some penalty incrued, cause that has been paid. The only thing to prevent us having intimacy with our Lord is not acknowledging our sin. It's automatic. Clearly the context is regarding fellowship with Christ.

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say, "We have not sinned," we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
The opposite of confessing our sin is to say, "We have no sin." Where does it say here that to not have our sin forgiven results in a loss of eternal life?

The real issue I had was with your claim that for a believer to leave a sin unconfessed would damn them. Wow! That's very dangerous. It turns our salvation into salvation by works. It also does not allow a believer to ever have assurance of their salvation, and in chapter 5 of this same letter John said that he wrote this letter so that they would have assurance not based on anything they had done, but based on their having received Christ through faith:

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn't have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I never made that claim, it seems you read my posts enough to get the quotes, how is it that you did not notice that I never made such a statement. In fact it was Sirus who made the statement.

Are works not necessary for salvation?

So, "The truth is not in us" means broken fellowship???


Baddog---How can we have assurance with a theology that says that if we do not confess EVERY sin we commit, and let's face it, we sin all the time, that we are damned?

I never made such a statement. Paul says there is therefore no condemnation to whose who are in Christ Jesus, that however, does not mean we have no need to confess our sins.

Sirus
Mar 15th 2010, 01:07 AM
Are works not necessary for salvation?No they are not. Believing is all that is necessary.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Works of faith are a result of faith. They are the natural result of having faith.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Sinning/confessing, sinning/confessing, sinning/confessing, sinning/confessing, is not faith but a lack of faith and therefore cannot be a work of faith. You cannot sin the same sins everyday and confess them and say it is a work of faith. Sorry!

BadDog
Mar 15th 2010, 02:13 AM
How is it in error? Was Peter also in error?

2 Peter 1:5-11 ( KJV )
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
BD: I do not see how this applies. It refers to someone "forgetting" that he was already purged from his old sins. Sounds like that supports my position. It says nothing about future sins needing to be paid for ourselves. Do you really believe that we have to cover the sin of future sins? That's salvation by works. And Romans 11:6 tells us that mixing grace and works destroys grace. 1% works and 99% grace is works:

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.


Or Paul?

Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV )
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

BD: Read it in context... those sins prevciously committed are referring to sins of the nation of Israel before Christ came!

Romans 3:21-25 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed -- attested by the Law and the Prophets-- that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. He presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.


Oh, so everyone else's sins were pre-forgiven but these particular Jews have to wait for Christ to return to have their sins forgiven??? Sorry I'm not buying that one.


It's simply unfounded? What evidence would support your claim?

Huh?? Who said any such thing?! Let me be clear. About 1980 years ago Jesus Christ paid the penalty for all sin ever committed on the planet earth. Freedom from the penalty for sin comes when we appropriate that gift by faith in Christ


I wasn't able to find where I made either of these statements could you please show me where you found them?
BD: Well, I must have misread Sirus' quote. Sorry. Pleased to hear you do not hold to such a theology. :giveup:

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn't have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


I never made that claim, it seems you read my posts enough to get the quotes, how is it that you did not notice that I never made such a statement. In fact it was Sirus who made the statement.
BD: Sorry - see above.

Are works not necessary for salvation?
BD: Absolutely not! They should naturally follow faith though. But we are saved by faith alone.

So, "The truth is not in us" means broken fellowship???
BD: Uh, did you read the context I showed on that? It's quite clear. That simply means we're being untruthful, deceiving ourselves and others.

I never made such a statement. Paul says there is therefore no condemnation to whose who are in Christ Jesus, that however, does not mean we have no need to confess our sins.
Butch,

Thanks for clearing that up. "Confession" is needed in order to walk in fellowship with Christ and serve Him. It does not undo what Christ did on the cross.

Take care,

BD

Sirus
Mar 15th 2010, 02:41 AM
I wasn't able to find where I made either of these statements could you please show me where you found them?
He quoted you, not me.

You didn't address the issue. In Paul's statement he speaks of sin having been forgiven, past tense, yet in Acts 3 Peter speaks of sin being forgiven in the future tense. If every single one of your future sins have been pre-forgiven please explain what Peter is talking about. He tells his hearers to repent so that their sins may be (future) blotted out when the times of refreshing come from the Lord.
I never made that claim, it seems you read my posts enough to get the quotes, how is it that you did not notice that I never made such a statement. In fact it was Sirus who made the statement.Yes, I made a statement based on scripture. You made a claim w/o any scripture. Correct.

Sirus
Mar 15th 2010, 02:42 AM
"Confession" is needed in order to walk in fellowship with Christ and serve Him. It does not undo what Christ did on the cross.Then confession is not needed.

Butch5
Mar 15th 2010, 01:54 PM
No they are not. Believing is all that is necessary.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Works of faith are a result of faith. They are the natural result of having faith.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Sinning/confessing, sinning/confessing, sinning/confessing, sinning/confessing, is not faith but a lack of faith and therefore cannot be a work of faith. You cannot sin the same sins everyday and confess them and say it is a work of faith. Sorry!

Sirus,

We have been over this. There is no need to post Romans 4 out of context. Instead why not address the Scriptures that I posted that disagree with your cliams?

Butch5
Mar 15th 2010, 02:28 PM
Baddog---Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

One of us has the Scriptures out of context. Since Paul's argument is the insufficiency of the Mosaic law I contend that Romans 11:6 is speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law

You didn’t answer the question is Peter wrong?



BD: Read it in context... those sins prevciously committed are referring to sins of the nation of Israel before Christ came!


I did read it in context, it seems to me that Paul’s argument is that both Jew and Gentile are equally justified by faith. How Then does it only apply to the past sins of the Jews?

Do we also conclude that only the Jews are justified by faith since this only applies to the them?



How were the quoted passages from Christ unfounded?




BD---Huh?? Who said any such thing?!

Didn’t you say,


Baddog---You also quoted from Acts 3, in response to a quote by Sirus of Colossians 2:13:

Acts 3:19-20 ( KJV ) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

But that verse is referring to Jesus Christ being "sent" to those Jews if they trusted in Christ as their Messiah (Christ). It was not confession by some already saved individuals, so how can it apply?

So, I said,


Butch5---Oh, so everyone else's sins were pre-forgiven but these particular Jews have to wait for Christ to return to have their sins forgiven??? Sorry I'm not buying that one.




BD---Let me be clear. About 1980 years ago Jesus Christ paid the penalty for all sin ever committed on the planet earth. Freedom from the penalty for sin comes when we appropriate that gift by faith in Christ

Christ paid the penalty for all sin??? Where does Scripture teach this?

Wouldn’t that mean universal salvation?

I thought the penalty for sin was death. Paul said the wages of sin is death. Does that mean no one will ever die again?




Butch5---Are works not necessary for salvation?


BD: Absolutely not! They should naturally follow faith though. But we are saved by faith alone.

James doesn’t seem to agree with you. He makes the only statement in Scripture about faith alone and says that a man is not justified by faith alone.

I recently did a word search on the word “judge” in it’s different forms. Every verse that spoke of God judging men, whether believers or unbelievers, spoke of them being judged on their works. There was not s ingle verse that spoke of men being judged on what they believed. If works are not necessary can you explain my findings?



BD---Thanks for clearing that up. "Confession" is needed in order to walk in fellowship with Christ and serve Him. It does not undo what Christ did on the cross.

Nothing can undo the cross, however, the cross is only applied as we remain in Christ. If we refuse to confess sin how can we remain in Christ?

Butch5
Mar 15th 2010, 02:39 PM
He quoted you, not me.
Yes, I made a statement based on scripture. You made a claim w/o any scripture. Correct.

I made a statement without Scripture? Sirus, I have given you Scripture repeatedly and asked you to please reconcile the contradictions that your doctrine creates. I am still waiting for an answer. I finally gave up because you just kept changing the topic. However, if you would like I will ask again. If all of you future sins were pre-forgiven please explain Peter's statement.


2 Peter 1:5-11 ( KJV )
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

You said,


Sirus---One cannot be sanctified, holy, perfect, clean, etc "in Christ".....if they have or even can have unforgiven sin. It just doesn't work.

I asked for Scriptural support and you gave none. I also asked how you can believe that it is possible for a person to fall away if they cannot have unforgiven sin? Again you could not reconcile this. So you have contradictions within your own doctrinal beliefs even apart from Scripture.

These are the questions I was waiting for you to answer.

BadDog
Mar 15th 2010, 02:51 PM
"Confession" is needed in order to walk in fellowship with Christ and serve Him. It does not undo what Christ did on the cross.


Then confession is not needed.

Well, if you are referring to what is "needed" IOT gain eternal life, then "yes," it is not "needed." But if you are talking about what is needed IOT experience life, then it is absolutely needed! Not everything relates to being born spiritually. Probably 90% of the NT is written to believers and regarding how to walk with Christ.

BD

BadDog
Mar 15th 2010, 07:51 PM
Baddog---Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

One of us has the Scriptures out of context. Since Paul's argument is the insufficiency of the Mosaic law I contend that Romans 11:6 is speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law
It does not say the Law here. It just refers to works. The context is of Paul speaking of God choosing (election) Israelites based on grace, and not on their works. They were not any better than those nations around them. Now Paul says in vs. 5 and 6:

Romans 11:5, 6 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

The Roman church was comprised of Gentiles and Jews. He had earlier addressed the Gentiles being grafted into the Jewish trunk. So this is addressing all of those present believers. But whether or not Paul is speaking of works of the Mosaic Law doesn't affect the point that salvation is by grace alone, and even a little works muddies the waters.


You didn't answer the question is Peter wrong?
Actually, I did. Here is what I said:


BD: I do not see how this applies. It refers to someone "forgetting" that he was already purged from his old sins. Sounds like that supports my position. It says nothing about future sins needing to be paid for ourselves. Do you really believe that we have to cover the sin of future sins? That's salvation by works. And Romans 11:6 tells us that mixing grace and works destroys grace. 1% works and 99% grace is works:

The point is that what Peter says there is not relevant, since Peter says nothing about future sins needing to be paid for. Please don't just say that I did not address a question. Look more carefully. Thx.


I did read it in context, it seems to me that Paul's argument is that both Jew and Gentile are equally justified by faith. How Then does it only apply to the past sins of the Jews?

Do we also conclude that only the Jews are justified by faith since this only applies to the them?
Well, here it is again:

BD: Read it in context... those sins previously committed are referring to sins of the nation of Israel before Christ came!

(Then I showed it in context: )
Romans 3:21-25 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed -- attested by the Law and the Prophets-- that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. He presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.

Now this text is very clear. Paul is saying here that God presented Christ as a propitiation (sacrifice-to cover His wrath) through faith in His blood. Now Paul is speaking about God passing over sins which were committed BEFORE Christ died. God showed "forbearance." IOW, those who sinned before Christ had no answer for their sin. Christ had not died for their sin yet. Read the chapter in context, and it should be quite clear, I would think. Look it up in just about any commentary. It is just not saying what you think.


How were the quoted passages from Christ unfounded?

Butch,

OK, you're just saying, "Why do you say this?" or "How can you say that?" I've taken a lot of time to address in detail your points, to help make clear what I differ with you about in your theology. However, you've got to include any texts that you are asking questions about. That last post doesn't list either your original posted comments or my response to them. I took the time to do such in each of my responses. If you want me to address any of your comments, you'll have to list the details so I do not have to search all over the thread to find things and then try to understand what you're objecting to.

Appreciate your understanding, Butch.

I think I'm done for now, except the text below regarding Christ paying the penalty for all sin below. Even though you did not list the details, I remember and can answer it.

Thx,

BD


Christ paid the penalty for all sin??? Where does Scripture teach this?

Wouldn’t that mean universal salvation?

I thought the penalty for sin was death. Paul said the wages of sin is death. Does that mean no one will ever die again?

I did say where this was, if you go back to that post (1 John 2):

1 John 2:1, 2 My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father -- Jesus Christ the righteous One. He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for [those of] the whole world.

What I put in brackets above is what is supplied by most translations--for understanding. But the text simply says, "...for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." I don't think it's important... just wanted to be clear.

It says here that Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of those who believe and also for those of the whole world. This cannot be interpreted to mean only those of believers. That's not what it says.


James doesn’t seem to agree with you. He makes the only statement in Scripture about faith alone and says that a man is not justified by faith alone.

BD: Well, if you want to start a thread on James 2, and if I still have time, we can address that. But that will take several long posts to explain clearly. Simply put: James is not talking about justification by faith alone. The word translated "alone" is MONON not MONOS. Hence it is an adverb and cannot ever modify a noun. There are no exceptions to this rule regarding MONON/MONOS in Koine Greek or Classical Greek either. So it must be modifying "justified."

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not only [justified] by faith.

Again, MONON does not modify "faith" but "justified" since that is the only verbal nearby. James is simply not saying that we are not justified by faith alone. He did not say that. I realize the verse in English is unclear, but that was not a possible meaning due to the use of μόνον. There are a few occasions in which some knowledge of the original language will clear things up, and this is such.


I recently did a word search on the word “judge” in it’s different forms. Every verse that spoke of God judging men, whether believers or unbelievers, spoke of them being judged on their works. There was not single verse that spoke of men being judged on what they believed. If works are not necessary can you explain my findings?
Sure. We are not judged at all if we trust in Him:

John 5:24 "I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has already crossed over from death to life."

Now it says above that we have already crossed over out of judgment (based upon our works - agreed) into life. God doesn't judge our faith. He looks at Christ's death in our behalf. To add works to faith is to say that Christ's death for us was necessary, but not enough. Is that what you're saying?

Take care,

BD


Nothing can undo the cross, [BD says to the previous: :pp ] however, the cross is only applied as we remain in Christ. If we refuse to confess sin how can we remain in Christ?
Scripture?

BD

Butch5
Mar 15th 2010, 10:56 PM
BadDog
Baddog---Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.


Originally Posted by Butch5
One of us has the Scriptures out of context. Since Paul's argument is the insufficiency of the Mosaic law I contend that Romans 11:6 is speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law



BD---It does not say the Law here. It just refers to works. The context is of Paul speaking of God choosing (election) Israelites based on grace, and not on their works. They were not any better than those nations around them. Now Paul says in vs. 5 and 6:


Romans 11:5, 6 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

The Roman church was comprised of Gentiles and Jews. He had earlier addressed the Gentiles being grafted into the Jewish trunk. So this is addressing all of those present believers. But whether or not Paul is speaking of works of the Mosaic Law doesn't affect the point that salvation is by grace alone, and even a little works muddies the waters.


The Law is the point of his argument, he begins in Chapter 2. His address is to the Jews beginning in chapter two and continuing until 11:13. The remnant he speaks of is a Jewish remnant.
There are no waters to be muddied, the Scriptures are clear works are necessary.


Originally Posted by Butch5
You didn't answer the question is Peter wrong?


BD---Actually, I did. Here is what I said:

Originally Posted by BadDog
BD: I do not see how this applies. It refers to someone "forgetting" that he was already purged from his old sins. Sounds like that supports my position. It says nothing about future sins needing to be paid for ourselves. Do you really believe that we have to cover the sin of future sins? That's salvation by works. And Romans 11:6 tells us that mixing grace and works destroys grace. 1% works and 99% grace is works:

The point is that what Peter says there is not relevant, since Peter says nothing about future sins needing to be paid for. Please don't just say that I did not address a question. Look more carefully. Thx.

The point is that Peter says only old sins were forgiven. The fact that he does not mention future sins is irrelevant to the fact that past their old sins were forgiven. Future sins are not “Old sins”.



Originally Posted by Butch5
I did read it in context, it seems to me that Paul's argument is that both Jew and Gentile are equally justified by faith. How Then does it only apply to the past sins of the Jews?

Do we also conclude that only the Jews are justified by faith since this only applies to the them?
Well, here it is again:


Originally Posted by BadDog
BD: Read it in context... those sins previously committed are referring to sins of the nation of Israel before Christ came!

(Then I showed it in context: )
Romans 3:21-25 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed -- attested by the Law and the Prophets-- that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. He presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.

Now this text is very clear. Paul is saying here that God presented Christ as a propitiation (sacrifice-to cover His wrath) through faith in His blood. Now Paul is speaking about God passing over sins which were committed BEFORE Christ died. God showed "forbearance." IOW, those who sinned before Christ had no answer for their sin. Christ had not died for their sin yet. Read the chapter in context, and it should be quite clear, I would think. Look it up in just about any commentary. It is just not saying what you think.

Paul is not saying that Christ is a propitiation to cover God’s wrath. Where does Scripture say that Christ died to cover God’s wrath?

The context is that Paul is speaking to present believers.

Romans 3:19-31 ( KJV )
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

It appears to me that Paul is speaking of the present. Does he just drop in that one sentence and throw it into the past?



Originally Posted by Butch5
How were the quoted passages from Christ unfounded?


BD---

OK, you're just saying, "Why do you say this?" or "How can you say that?" I've taken a lot of time to address in detail your points, to help make clear what I differ with you about in your theology. However, you've got to include any texts that you are asking questions about. That last post doesn't list either your original posted comments or my response to them. I took the time to do such in each of my responses. If you want me to address any of your comments, you'll have to list the details so I do not have to search all over the thread to find things and then try to understand what you're objecting to.

Appreciate your understanding, Butch.


These were the passage, you said my use was unfounded.

Matthew 6:14-15 ( KJV )
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:24-26 ( KJV )
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses .

Luke 6:37 ( KJV )
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:



I think I'm done for now, except the text below regarding Christ paying the penalty for all sin below. Even though you did not list the details, I remember and can answer it.

Thx,

BD


Originally Posted by Butch

Christ paid the penalty for all sin??? Where does Scripture teach this?

Wouldn’t that mean universal salvation?

I thought the penalty for sin was death. Paul said the wages of sin is death. Does that mean no one will ever die again?


BD---I did say where this was, if you go back to that post (1 John 2):

1 John 2:1, 2 My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father -- Jesus Christ the righteous One. He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for [those of] the whole world.

What I put in brackets above is what is supplied by most translations--for understanding. But the text simply says, "...for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." I don't think it's important... just wanted to be clear.

It says here that Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of those who believe and also for those of the whole world. This cannot be interpreted to mean only those of believers. That's not what it says.

I’m not arguing the word “all”. My question was where does Scripture speak of the “Penalty”? Where does Scripture teach us that Christ died for the Penalty of sins. You see if this were the case then all men would be saved, simply because if Christ paid the price to satisfy man's obligation to God. Then the debt is paid in full and man has no obligation. Thus all men would be saved. There would be no basis for God to demand faith since man’s obligation had already been met. Thus we have universal salvation.



Originally Posted by Butch
James doesn’t seem to agree with you. He makes the only statement in Scripture about faith alone and says that a man is not justified by faith alone.


BD: Well, if you want to start a thread on James 2, and if I still have time, we can address that. But that will take several long posts to explain clearly. Simply put: James is not talking about justification by faith alone. The word translated "alone" is MONON not MONOS. Hence it is an adverb and cannot ever modify a noun. There are no exceptions to this rule regarding MONON/MONOS in Koine Greek or Classical Greek either. So it must be modifying "justified."

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not only [justified] by faith.

Again, MONON does not modify "faith" but "justified" since that is the only verbal nearby. James is simply not saying that we are not justified by faith alone. He did not say that. I realize the verse in English is unclear, but that was not a possible meaning due to the use of μόνον. There are a few occasions in which some knowledge of the original language will clear things up, and this is such.

Didn’t you just say the same thing I did, man is not justified by faith alone?


Originally Posted by Butch
I recently did a word search on the word “judge” in it’s different forms. Every verse that spoke of God judging men, whether believers or unbelievers, spoke of them being judged on their works. There was not single verse that spoke of men being judged on what they believed. If works are not necessary can you explain my findings?


BD---Sure. We are not judged at all if we trust in Him:
John 5:24 "I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has already crossed over from death to life."

Now it says above that we have already crossed over out of judgment (based upon our works - agreed) into life. God doesn't judge our faith. He looks at Christ's death in our behalf. To add works to faith is to say that Christ's death for us was necessary, but not enough. Is that what you're saying?

No, it doesn’t. It says “will not come” into judgment, that is future tense not past.

2 Corinthians 5:10 ( KJV )
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 20:11-15 ( KJV )
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Adding works to faith does not effect the cross at all, why would you think such? It is God who determines what He wants, if He says He wants works then He wants works.



Originally Posted by Butch
Nothing can undo the cross, however, the cross is only applied as we remain in Christ. If we refuse to confess sin how can we remain in Christ?


BD---Scripture?


John 15:1-8 ( KJV )
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Sirus
Mar 16th 2010, 01:38 AM
Sirus,

We have been over this. There is no need to post Romans 4 out of context. Instead why not address the Scriptures that I posted that disagree with your cliams?I'm not out of context using Romans 4 for works vs faith, that's an impossiblity. Abraham was before the Mosaic law.

I did address the scriptures you posted.

Sirus
Mar 16th 2010, 02:02 AM
I made a statement without Scripture? Sirus, I have given you Scripture repeatedly and asked you to please reconcile the contradictions that your doctrine creates.Which is it, because you just claimed you did not make the claim unconfessed sin damns us while making the claim that only past sins are forgiven. What if someone forgets about 100 or 2000?


I am still waiting for an answer. I finally gave up because you just kept changing the topic. However, if you would like I will ask again. If all of you future sins were pre-forgiven please explain Peter's statement.Already answered in post #38


Where was Peter? He is telling Israel.....
Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly
.....to get in on it. They "denied the Holy One and the Just", they " killed the Prince of life" and though they were ignorant "through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers", they need to get with it because the time is now.

.........In all cases where it says repent and be baptized for remission...and receive, it was to Israeli's. That's a fact. One you cannot deny. Other cases involving Gentiles say no such thing. That's a fact. One you cannot deny. Well, you try with a simple claim but you never have and never will provide scripture to prove otherwise.

You said,

I asked for Scriptural support and you gave none. I also asked how you can believe that it is possible for a person to fall away if they cannot have unforgiven sin? Again you could not reconcile this. So you have contradictions within your own doctrinal beliefs even apart from Scripture.

These are the questions I was waiting for you to answer.post #37


The verse in question says if we confess we will be forgiven, yet everyone but you maintains all sin is forgiven. Then you said, "Every sin that you will commit in the future has not been pre-forgiven."". His sacrifice is not a daily sacrifice of animals for sin continually. It was done once for all sin for those that put and keep their faith in Him. We have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. God for Christ's sake has forgiven us. We have been translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. As we received Christ, so we are to walk in him -by faith- because of what He did -we are complete in Him. We are not to let any man beguile us or spoil us of our reward by voluntary humility and tradition because He has made us alive together with him (in Christ), having forgiven us all trespasses.

You say there is a chance we could have an unforgiven sin that we forgot to confess that will damn us. If we remember them all we can saved. If this was true the apostles would have very clearly and repeatedly warned us. They didn't. Instead they warn us to continue to believe. Again, here you are with your works based salvation. No thank you! How much time should we allow for all this confession Butch? What burden of man. Babes in Christ would spend hours everyday confessing sin or they'd be damned. How horrible if we forget one.
Now I can provide a multitude of scripture to support every word in red but it was much faster this way. In fact 2/3 of it is scripture paraphrased. I don't find it necessary to spend an hour posting scripture for such a basic fundamental doctrine almost all the church claims to believe. You are the only one here that claims otherwise and have only two out of context scriptures.

Sirus
Mar 16th 2010, 02:07 AM
The point is that Peter says only old sins were forgiven. The fact that he does not mention future sins is irrelevant to the fact that past their old sins were forgiven. Future sins are not ďOld sinsĒ.Peter said these are blind. Believers are not blind. Post #19



What Peter addressed is someone that lacked patience (v6) -did not hold fast, or endure. They believed a while and fell away from the confidence of the gospel. It's someone that is 'barren and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ' and are blind. The key word you are missing here besides biblical definition of patience, which is not how we use the word today, is "was". He was purged. Old because he is not any longer. The blood continually cleanses us as we continually believe and endure with patience. So it's not automatic. No one said it was. We confess our need for Christ having faith in Him and what He did for us. We continue to do so til the end.

Sirus
Mar 16th 2010, 02:33 AM
Well, if you are referring to what is "needed" IOT gain eternal life, then "yes," it is not "needed."Well, I disagree. The thief on the cross acknowledged he was guilty, Jesus was innocent, and Jesus was king. He confessed he had sin. That's what 1John is talking about concerning confession.


But if you are talking about what is needed IOT experience life, then it is absolutely needed! Not everything relates to being born spiritually. Probably 90% of the NT is written to believers and regarding how to walk with Christ.Speaking of the rest of the NT....

"we" and "our" here are the apostles/disciples -eyewitnesses

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; )
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Do as the thief on the cross and you are in the light. Don't and you are in darkness.

Thus the contrast theme concept of the book begins in order to give a message that shows eternal life. I experience life knowing I am completely forgiven -past, present, future. You agree, it seems. Why then do you say we have to confess sin to experience life? I respect your opinion and enjoy reading your posts. I'm just trying to understand how this could be. How can you be forgiven and not need to confess for for forgiveness and have eternal life, then have to turn around and confess to not be forgiven but to experience life? That makes no sense to me. The passage is clear. Confession is for forgiveness. Not relationship or fellowship. To confess for forgiveness doubts the complete and finished work of Christ.


1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Where is scripture that shows fellowship is broken when we sin? I explained earlier that we can find that in the OT (under Mosaic law) and with a few individuals in the NT (not model examples of a believer). They were examples of when to repent and confess -near denial of the faith or apostasy. Neither of those are the issue here. Sinning x# of times in a day and not able to fellowship with God again until confession of those sins are made is the question.

CRJarvis
Mar 16th 2010, 02:52 AM
you need to confess you are a sinner.

-SEEKING-
Mar 16th 2010, 03:02 AM
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