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Kudo Shinichi
Mar 9th 2010, 05:44 PM
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/giants.html
I remember clearly when I was in Sunday School that King David David kills Goliath using 1 of the 5 stones with a sling. Does that sound practical but with GOD it can. 1 Chronicles 20:5 , 1 Samuel 17:50, 2 Samuel 21:19.

My question is about Genesis 6:1-4...just to ask some insights to this idea. Sons of God = Angels who revolt against GOD cause daughters of men pregnant with Giants...what's the definition of Giants??? If you know that theory...cause I don't understand the origin of the theory. Which says the theory of Angels cause daughters of men pregnant Giants which has demon with human soul.

Whereas the other theory is Sons of God = Seth lineage cause daughters of men pregnant with Giants.

Which theory of this theology is true???

David Taylor
Mar 9th 2010, 09:15 PM
This 'theory' is an eisogetical (read into) myth, not a biblical doctrine exogetically (read out of) the text?

Nothing in Gen 6:1-7 mentions angels mating with humans and producing hybrid offspring. What that chapter does mention, over and over, is men...men...men...men...simple human beings, some of exceptional size and stature called giants (Hebrew Nephilim), but no cross-species mating is presented at all.

One must 'read into the text' that 'sons of God' must mean angels, whereas most places in Scripture where this term is used, it is used to denote humans who follow God. Plus nowhere contextually in Genesis 6 or anywhere else in the Scriptures is this supposed interpretation explained or taught. One has to venture outside of scripture into the land of occultic writings and myths to find this view.


In context after context where Nephilim is used in the OT, the context tells us the nephilim is a man. Og, Goliath, Goliath's brother, Anak, and all of the giant dudes, were all men. No different than Robert Waldo, or no different than the Pygmy tribes of the Congo that are reversely apt to be of small anti-nephilim statures.

Let's look for the context of what species of creation is being discussed.

What do we find over and over and over again, addressed in chapter 6?

I will highlight in blue, all contextual references to human beings.
I will highlight in green, all contextual references to angels.
I will highlight in black, any obscure or undefined references.


Genesis 6
"And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."

Many, many clear and plain contextual references throughout chapter 6 to men and human beings...dozens.
Zero clear or plain references specifically to angels, and
only a vague miniscule reference to those the Genesis writer calls 'the sons of God'.


From the context of Chapter 6 telling us of God's plan to destroy man for mankinds wickedness, and to preserve Noah and his family for their faithfulness...can we draw the most likely contextual understanding of what species 'sons of God' are? Especially knowing that their prodigeny the 'giants' Hebrew Nehpilim are called multiple times specifically "men"?

HHHhhhmmm......

Context shows us the answer. We shouldn't attempt to change it.


Let's now look at another chapter supposedly speaking of angel/human hybrids. Numbers chapter 13. Does it mention fallen angels? No, not at all. What Numbers 13, in proper context speaks of, is the human ancestry of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Num 13:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them. And Moses by the commandment of the LORD sent them from the wilderness of Paran: all those men were heads of the children of Israel. And these were their names: of the tribe of Reuben...Of the tribe of Simeon...Of the tribe of Judah...etc, ...These are the names of the men...13:18 And see the land, what it is, and the people that dwelleth therein, whether they be strong or weak, few or many;And what the land is that they dwell in, whether it be good or bad; and what cities they be that they dwell in, whether in tents, or in strong holds;....So they went up, and searched the land from the wilderness of Zin unto Rehob, as men come to Hamath. And they ascended by the south, and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.) And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it. Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there. The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan. And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. "

So the context of Numbers 13 is Israel surveying the promised land, and investigating the 'people' and the 'men' it found there....no mention contextually at all of angels or demon-human hybrids creatures.

David Taylor
Mar 9th 2010, 09:15 PM
Another popular angel/hybrid myth involves Anak. Who was Anak and the Anakim?
Anak was simply a large human man, and his tribe. The '-im' prefix is just a pluralizing suffix like '-ites' (as in Israel-ites)....nothing mysterious about it's useage.

Deuteronomy 2-3 also speaks of other tall groups of people of the Em-ims and Hor-ims, and Zamzumm-ims; but nowhere are they ever called angels or does the context elude to them being of mixed-species. Only of human people stock. No different entymologically than the Amonites and Edomites and Moabites also mentioned in the same chapter.

Deuteronomy 2:16, 34 "So it came to pass, when all the men of war were consumed and dead from among the people... And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city"

Deuteronomy 9:2 "A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!"

Deuteronomy 14:15 "And the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba; which Arba was a great man among the Anakims. And the land had rest from war."

Joshua 14:15 "And the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba; which Arba (Anak's father) was a great man among the Anakims. And the land had rest from war."

So the Anakim were large men, of giant statute; but nowhere are they ever describe as being angelic, angelically descended, or having any unnatural relationship with angels. That is found solely in the occultic myths, not from the Scriptures themselves.





Another famous giant man was Og, the king of Bashan. A land of people, not angels or hybrids.
Numbers 21:33 "And they turned and went up by the way of Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan went out against them, he, and all his people, to the battle at Edrei. "

Deuteronomy 3:4 "And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. "

What of the most famous Giant of them all? Goliath of the city of Gath, and Philistine kingdom? Any mention of him being of angelic ancestry? Nope. Any mention of him being a man and a philistine, like many other human men who were philistines? Sure.

I Samuel 17:4 "17:4 And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. And he stood and cried unto the armies of Israel, and said unto them, Why are ye come out to set your battle in array? am not I a Philistine, and ye servants to Saul? choose you a man for you, and let him come down to me."

I Samuel 17:24 "And all the men of Israel, when they saw the man, fled from him, and were sore afraid. And the men of Israel said, Have ye seen this man that is come up? And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth. "

What of the other giant men from Gath? Were they angelic hybrid creatures or just men?

II Samuel 21:20 "And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant."

II Samuel 21:15 Moreover the Philistines had yet war again with Israel; and David went down, and his servants with him, and fought against the Philistines: and David waxed faint. And Ishbibenob, which was of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of brass in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have slain David. But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him."

II Samuel 21:18 "And it came to pass after this, that there was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob: then Sibbechai the Hushathite slew Saph, which was of the sons of the giant. And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite"

Shall we jump into the myth-train and presume all Philistines are also angelic hybrid beings, even though scripture tells us they were one of many neighboring nations of human men?

Joshua 12:1 Now these are the kings of the land, which the children of Israel smote, and possessed their land on the other side Jordan toward the rising of the sun, from the river Arnon unto mount Hermon, and all the plain on the east: 12:2 Sihon king of the Amorites, who dwelt in Heshbon, and ruled from Aroer, which is upon the bank of the river Arnon, and from the middle of the river, and from half Gilead, even unto the river Jabbok, which is the border of the children of Ammon; 12:3 And from the plain to the sea of Chinneroth on the east, and unto the sea of the plain, even the salt sea on the east, the way to Bethjeshimoth; and from the south, under Ashdothpisgah: 12:4 And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,
12:5 And reigned in mount Hermon, and in Salcah, and in all Bashan, unto the border of the Geshurites and the Maachathites, and half Gilead, the border of Sihon king of Heshbon.
12:6 Them did Moses the servant of the LORD and the children of Israel smite: and Moses the servant of the LORD gave it for a possession unto the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh. 12:7 And these are the kings of the country which Joshua and the children of Israel smote on this side Jordan on the west, from Baalgad in the valley of Lebanon even unto the mount Halak, that goeth up to Seir; which Joshua gave unto the tribes of Israel for a possession according to their divisions; 12:8 In the mountains, and in the valleys, and in the plains, and in the springs, and in the wilderness, and in the south country; the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: 13:2 This is the land that yet remaineth: all the borders of the Philistines, and all Geshuri, From Sihor, which is before Egypt, even unto the borders of Ekron northward, which is counted to the Canaanite: five lords of the Philistines; the Gazathites, and the Ashdothites, the Eshkalonites, the Gittites, and the Ekronites; also the Avites: From the south, all the land of the Canaanites, and Mearah that is beside the Sidonians unto Aphek, to the borders of the Amorites: And the land of the Giblites, and all Lebanon, toward the sunrising, from Baalgad under mount Hermon unto the entering into Hamath. All the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon unto Misrephothmaim, and all the Sidonians, them will I drive out from before the children of Israel: only divide thou it by lot unto the Israelites for an inheritance, as I have commanded thee."

All human kingdoms and adversaries of Israel....but no mention ever of being angelic kingdoms of hybrid creatures.

Can you see how some get fooled by this myth? They've packaged up a sensational myth, dropped a couple of passages out of context, and roped you into believing their myth which when examine in the context of scriptures has no foundation.

Human beings existed before and after the flood. Many of them sinned. Many of them came in different sizes. But they were all human. There is no serpent-seed lineage (from a supposed Eve/Serpent mating), and no demon-seed lineages(from a supposed other angels/humans matings).




Sometimes some will argue that the root word of Nephilim is to fall or fallen, speculating that is suppose to mean 'fallen angel'...(of which the root doesn't say). Sure they were 'fallen'....not because they were the supposed decsendents of angelic mating (which scripture forgets to tell us), but rather, because they were the indigenous people of the promised land who were fallen because they worshipped idols and false gods.

Deuteronomy 29:17 "And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them:) Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations"
Deuteronomy 31:3 "The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said. And the LORD shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed."



People are accountable for their own sins based on their choices to not follow the Lord; not based on their bloodlines or who there parents were.

There are no stories in the Bible presenting human/angel hybrids any moreso than there are stories presenting human/butterfly or human/hippo hybrids. Just an occultic myth that has been perpetuated over the centuries by those who enjoy the sensationalistic over the common and mundane.

Hope this helps you bro.

The Mighty Sword
Mar 9th 2010, 09:31 PM
Hi David I believe you left out a scripture in Job whereas "the Sons of God" presented themselves before the lord and satan came also, now these scritures are speaking of angels being referred to as "The Sons of God" unless the writer is speaking of Noah's sons as well???.

(Job 1:6 KJV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

(Job 2:1 KJV) Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

(Job 38:7 KJV) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The word "giants" here in the Hebrew is listed in Strong's as follows-
5303. nephiyl, nef-eel'; or nephil, nef-eel'; from H5307; prop., a feller
, i.e. a bully or tyrant:--giant.

The etymology of the Hebrew word נְפִילִים (nephilim) means "fallen ones."



Just a thought. :)

David Taylor
Mar 9th 2010, 09:50 PM
Hi David I believe you left out a scripture in Job whereas "the Sons of God" presented themselves before the lord and satan came also, now these scritures are speaking of angels being referred to as "The Sons of God" unless the writer is speaking of Noah's sons as well???.

(Job 1:6 KJV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

(Job 2:1 KJV) Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

(Job 38:7 KJV) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?



Nowhere in the context of Job does it explicitly and clearly tell us that whom Job refers to as 'sons of god' are angels or human/angel hybrids.

Nowhere in the context of Job does it mention or make reference to Genesis 6 or any implication that the men mentioned in Genesis 6 were'nt men, but rather, were angel/human hybrids.

The phrase 'sons of God' however, five other times in scriupture, clearly give the context to be human beings.

We could speculate and join the occultic myth bandwagon here, and assume that anytime the term 'sons of god' is used, it is suppose to mean angel/human hybrid creature....but that would be complete conjecture beyond the context of any passage found in the scriptures.

But again, let's not refer to conjecture, rather, or occultic myth; but instead let's just return to the context of all of the 'giant' passages I listed in the two posts earlier that do show us their clear context to be of human men.

Then we can't stumble...or cause our brother to stumble.

:):idea::)

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 9th 2010, 11:31 PM
Nowhere in the context of Job does it explicitly and clearly tell us that whom Job refers to as 'sons of god' are angels or human/angel hybrids.

Nowhere in the context of Job does it mention or make reference to Genesis 6 or any implication that the men mentioned in Genesis 6 were'nt men, but rather, were angel/human hybrids.

The phrase 'sons of God' however, five other times in scriupture, clearly give the context to be human beings.

We could speculate and join the occultic myth bandwagon here, and assume that anytime the term 'sons of god' is used, it is suppose to mean angel/human hybrid creature....but that would be complete conjecture beyond the context of any passage found in the scriptures.

But again, let's not refer to conjecture, rather, or occultic myth; but instead let's just return to the context of all of the 'giant' passages I listed in the two posts earlier that do show us their clear context to be of human men.

Then we can't stumble...or cause our brother to stumble.

:):idea::)


'satan' appeared 'with' the sons of men to present himself before the LORD..

I'm not sure what you've been taught as to 'who' satan is.. and 'why' he is presenting hmself before the LORD.. but 'satan' is no 'man'... although he does posses the power and capability to 'possess' and control 'man'.. by possessing his/her spirit/ soul, and body....

I'm curious as to why satan would be 'presenting' himself with 'mere men' before the LORD... can a 'mere' man present himself in front of the LORD? the Almighty.. in his flesh? we 'know' that angels are always in the presense of the LORD.. doing His Bidding and Work.. Jesus said certain angels Behold the face of the Father at all times... Job paints a clear picture of the Soveriegn Hand of God.. and yes even over the wicked angels that rebelled against Him in the Beginning... as satan comes before the LORD... satan, a supernatural being.. not a man.. as he comes before the LORD... after he has been walking to and fro up and down in the earth...

my question is..why would satan be presenting himself with 'mere man' before the LORD..

and can a 'mere man' present himself in Heaven in his own flesh? thats a good question..

or are the sons of God.. something else other than mere 'men'..

The Mighty Sword
Mar 9th 2010, 11:38 PM
Nowhere in the context of Job does it explicitly and clearly tell us that whom Job refers to as 'sons of god' are angels or human/angel hybrids.

Nowhere in the context of Job does it mention or make reference to Genesis 6 or any implication that the men mentioned in Genesis 6 were'nt men, but rather, were angel/human hybrids.

The phrase 'sons of God' however, five other times in scriupture, clearly give the context to be human beings.

We could speculate and join the occultic myth bandwagon here, and assume that anytime the term 'sons of god' is used, it is suppose to mean angel/human hybrid creature....but that would be complete conjecture beyond the context of any passage found in the scriptures.

But again, let's not refer to conjecture, rather, or occultic myth; but instead let's just return to the context of all of the 'giant' passages I listed in the two posts earlier that do show us their clear context to be of human men.

Then we can't stumble...or cause our brother to stumble.

:):idea::)

You have your definition and I have mine,
now concerning Job if the sons of God were not angels giving a report to God what was satan doing there???

New International Version (©1984)
On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.
New Living Translation (©2007)
One day the members of the heavenly court came again to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
One day when the sons of God came to stand in front of the LORD, Satan the Accuser came along with them.

King James Bible
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.


Concordance:
Adversary Fell Gods God's Midst Pass Present Satan Sons Station Themselves

I'm not trying to make anyone stumble, I just presented a different theory, you know like you.

nzyr
Mar 12th 2010, 04:25 AM
Would the bible refer to these (fallen) angels as "sons of God". A lot of scholars believe that this scripture is referring to the descendants of Seth. And because they were in the Messianic line were referred to as the sons of God. As opposed to the line of Cain whose descendants would die in the flood. And that this about the godly and ungodly peoples intermarrying and the consequences thereof.

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

The Mighty Sword
Mar 12th 2010, 04:53 PM
Would the bible refer to these (fallen) angels as "sons of God". A lot of scholars believe that this scripture is referring to the descendants of Seth. And because they were in the Messianic line were referred to as the sons of God. As opposed to the line of Cain whose descendants would die in the flood. And that this about the godly and ungodly peoples intermarrying and the consequences thereof.

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

If in scripture it says, "there were giants in those days and afterwards" and GOD destroyed life because of the wickedness of man, and the sons of seth were the cause, why not destroy the sons of seth as well ??? because after all you can't drown and angel, fallen or otherwise.

nzyr
Mar 12th 2010, 11:11 PM
If in scripture it says, "there were giants in those days and afterwards" and GOD destroyed life because of the wickedness of man, and the sons of seth were the cause, why not destroy the sons of seth as well ??? because after all you can't drown and angel, fallen or otherwise.Giants can mean ferocious people. Which the descendants of Cain would very likely had been. Why would the bible call fallen angels sons of God? I don't believe it would. And these scriptures mention man not demons:

My spirit shall not always strive with man, (Genesis 6:3)

...the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (Genesis 6:4)

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Genesis 6:6)

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. (Genesis 6:7)

ross3421
Mar 14th 2010, 06:29 AM
1pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Clearly the sons of God were angelic in Gen 6. These spirits INDWELT mankind whereby mankind then had offspring. I would say that Satan tried to destroy the blood line of Christ on this move and so God had to destroy all those indwelt except Noah whom must have been protected (this demonic indwelling is to happen again Rev 9).

Now it is possible that the offspring of the demonic indwelled parents could have created aberration of gigantic proportions. Were animals also indwelt and we see the Dinosaurs??