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View Full Version : Sabbath or Sunday: What did Jesus teach & show in scripture



Hobie
Mar 13th 2010, 08:25 AM
We cannot trust the traditions of men on the Sabbath vs. Sunday issue, for this is not safe, nor in just mere human opinions. Instead we need to know what scripture actually says, and above all, what Jesus Christ Himself taught, so we accept His pure teaching as our final authority.

Jesus Christ is “Lord even of the Sabbath day” as the Creator. Jesus said,“For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. By identifying Himself as “Lord even of the Sabbath day,” Jesus of was showing that He was the One who originally created Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day. And the New Testament makes clear that Jesus is the Creator...

"All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that has been made." John 1:3
"He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not". John 1:10
"God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." Eph. 3:9
"For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Col. 1:16

So scripture makes clear Jesus Christ is our Creator and also gave us the Sabbath for man not just the Jews.
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"Mark 2:27

Not only did Jesus create the Sabbath but He makes clear it was the seventh day and Holy...
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:11

"And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning." Exodus 16:23


Now you can check the scriptures and it will make clear the Sabbath is on Saturday, while Sunday is "the first day of the week" (Mat. 28:1; Mark 16:1, 2, etc). Jesus Christ regularly kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16), taught much about the Sabbath (Mat. 12:12; 24:20), and clearly stated that He is "Lord even of the Sabbath day" (Mat. 12:8). Jesus Christ never mentioned "the first day of the week" even one time. He taught nothing about it. The Sabbath continues after the cross (Luke 23:54-56) and was kept in the book of Acts by both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 13:42-44; 16:13).
There is no biblical authorization for the change of the Bible Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

God made the Sabbath at the beginning of the world (Gen. 2:1-3) before any Jews existed, to be a blessing to all people. Most importantly, it is a special sign that Jesus Christ is the true Creator of heaven and earth ( John 1:1-3, 10; Col. 1:16; Ex. 20:11; Ezekiel 20:12).

When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.¨ Thus Jesus followed His Father's example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?

Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath:

Mark 2:27
(27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Note: The Sabbath was made “for man” and when the Sabbath first came into the picture (Genesis 2:1-3) the only man alive then was Adam and his wife Eve. Therefore, the Sabbath was made for them, and for their offspring.

The understanding of the Law was given to man way before Moses as scripture makes clear...

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Genesis 26:5


The Ten Commandments were not part of Moses’ ceremonial law as Exodus 19, 20, and 31 clearly show. Also, there are many Bible references that show there was a distinguishment made between the Commandments and that of Moses’ book of the law.

Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, Jesus carefully taught how it should be observed.Matthew 12:1-13

Jesus is also known as the Lord of the Sabbath.Matthew 12:8. Why be Lord of something you were going to abolish?

Christ instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection.Matthew 24:20. When one reads all of Matt 24 they’ll see that Jesus was warning the disciples of the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem – which occurred about 40 years after His resurrection. Are we to believe that Christ didn’t know when this siege would take place?

Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it "the Sabbath day." Acts 13:14-16.Sounds like the Sabbath was still in effect even then, well after Christ's death.

The New Testament alone mentions the Sabbath day no less than 84 times - sounds like God is trying to tell us something. And never once is there a change of the Sabbath day to any other nor was it abolished.

Luke 23:56 - And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Jesus' own mother observed the Sabbath AFTER Jesus died. If He had changed or done away with the Sabbath day (having nailed it to the cross), wouldn't His own mother have known it? She was a follower of the Messiah; Mary was certainly would have known of any changes as she was at the cross. Now lets see what Jesus did:

Luke 4:16
(16) And he came to Nazareth, where he [Jesus Christ] had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Jesus Christ said to keep the commandments:
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17

Jesus never said that the Sabbath would change even after His death:
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.

Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D.(40 years after the Cross).

He kept the seventh day as the Sabbath from Creation and in His life on earth, and Christ is our example, and He says if we love HIM to keep HIS Commandments.

So, when was the Sabbath made? It was made at Creation. By the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on the seventh day He rested from all His work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He rested from all the work of creating that He had done.

The fourth commandment tells the same story:

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy ...... for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but He rested on the seventh day. Therefore,(for that reason) the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Now lets see a important day in our life like the day we were born, what would you think of someone suggesting that you change your birthday to the following day or a few after, or perhaps to the day before? Is that your birthday, the day you were born, No of course not.

The same is true of the day the fourth commandment specifies as the day God made Holy, a day of rest for man. To be truly a cellebration of Creation, it has to be the seventh day of the week rather than the first or the fifth. Did God make a mistake in the day and made Sunday Holy and forgot to tell us? No, and neither can man change what God has created and it was the seventh day that God made holy.

The Sabbath is a special day to focus on Jesus Christ our Maker: Jesus is “the Lord” who made the world in six days, and “rested on the seventh day.” Thus the Sabbath is a special day to focus on the Jesus Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of all life. It is a day to come apart from the normal stresses and cares of everyday living, to be refreshed and blessed by the great Creator who loves and died for us.

We are to work at our normal jobs during the six working days, but from sundown Friday night until sundown Saturday night, we should rest from our work. Late Friday afternoon, after Jesus died, "the Sabbath drew on." Luke 23:54. When the sun went down, Christ's followers "rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56.

Secular business should be laid aside. Shopping, laundry, homework, and housecleaning should be done during the six working days, and laid aside on the Sabbath so we can rest from our labors and be free to focus on our Creator Jesus Christ and share our love and worship Him.

Hobie
Mar 13th 2010, 08:28 AM
In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Let us briefly consider each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake. . . ." Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening. (The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb.

Mark 16:1, 2, "When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb." Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices.

Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons." This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

Luke 23:54 * 24:1, "It [the day of Jesus' death and burial] was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared." The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women disciples "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath. Writing years after the event, Luke gave not the slightest hint that, even though the women disciples of Jesus observed the Sabbath, such a practice was no longer expected of Christians. He simply recorded that the Sabbath day "according to the commandment," which Jesus' followers were careful to observe, was the day after the crucifixion day (Friday), and before the resurrection day (Sunday).

John 20:1, "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb." Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest.

John 20:19, "When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.'" On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5, 8). A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should henceforth be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.

Acts 20:7, "On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight." Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night. According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text.

1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem." These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.

None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever special significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles.

The early Christian church, including Jew and Gentile, kept the fourth commandment by keeping the Sabbath holy and gathering every Sabbath day.

Keep in mind that these letters were written long after Jesus’ resurrection.

Hobie
Mar 13th 2010, 08:29 AM
Acts 18:24-27 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

Did you notice how Aquila and Priscilla, who were Christians, were gathered in the synagogue on the Sabbath? They were still keeping the Sabbath even after becoming believers. Even the converted Jew, Apollos, gathered on the Sabbath. This is because Jesus never changed the Sabbath day nor did He do away with it.

The Apostle James taught the brethren on the Sabbath in the synagogues.

James 2:1-2 My brethren, hold not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come into your synagogue a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, and there come in also a poor man in vile clothing;

Paul taught Jew and Gentile Christians every Sabbath in the synagogue and urged these Sabbath keepers to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 13:42-44 And when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the synagogue broke up, many of the Jews and of the devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas; who, speaking to them, urged them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.

The next Sabbath the whole city came out. Why didn't the Gentiles beg Paul to teach them the next day, which would have been Sunday, instead of waiting a whole week for the next Sabbath?

Paul taught the Jews and Gentiles in the church at Corinth every Sabbath for a year and a half before leaving for his next journey. That's a lot of Sabbaths.

Jesus was concerned about the Sabbath forty years after His death and resurrection.

Matthew 24:20 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Paul, before his conversion, was sent to a Christian man, who was devote according to the law, to regain his sight. To be devote to the law means he was a Sabbath keeper.

Acts 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well reported of by all the Jews that dwelt there,

Before Paul was converted he hunted down the Christians while they were gathering on the Sabbath in the synagogues. He went from city to city every Sabbath looking for Christians in the synagogues.

Acts 26:9-11 I myself once thought that I had to do many things against the name of Jesus the Nazorean, and I did so in Jerusalem. I imprisoned many of the holy ones with the authorization I received from the chief priests, and when they were to be put to death I cast my vote against them. Many times, in synagogue after synagogue, I punished them in an attempt to force them to blaspheme; I was so enraged against them that I pursued them even to foreign cities.

Acts 22:19 `Lord,' I answered, "`they know that I used to go from synagogue to synagogue, imprisoning and flogging those who believed in you;

Acts 9:1-2 But Saul, yet breathing threatening and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, and asked of him letters to Damascus unto the synagogues, that if he found any that were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

After Jesus’ death, a follower of Jesus by the name of, Joseph of Arimathea who also believed in the coming kingdom message, continued to keep the Sabbath.

Luke 23:51-56 He had not consented to their counsel and deed. He was from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who himself was also waiting for the kingdom of God. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb that was hewn out of the rock, where no one had ever lain before. That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near. And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Jesus made statements that confirm the Sabbath in the New Covenant.

Matthew 12:8 "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.''

Mark 2:27 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Mark 3:4 And He said to them, "Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?'' But they kept silent.

Luke 6:9 Then Jesus said to them, "I will ask you one thing: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?''

In his book Samuele Bacchiocchi writes that the change from Sabbath to Sunday “was introduced at Rome about the middle of the second century.”
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... day/7.html

In support of that position, Samuele Bacchiocchi argues that Sunday-keeping was a Roman Catholic innovation that achieved universality because of the authority of the Roman church. Anti-Jewish sentiments were strong in Rome, and Gentiles became prominent in the church there...

Because of the exigency that arose to separate Christians from the Jews and their Sabbath, Gentile Christians adopted the venerable day of the Sun from pagan sun worship as a substitute. Although the church in Rome influence some areas of the empire, it was not able to change long-standing Sabbath worship in all parts, especially in the East where those beliefs were based on apostolic practice.

Emperor Aurelian begins new Sun cult.(274 A.D.)
[p. 55] In 274, Aurelian … created a new cult of the “Invincible Sun.” Worshipped in a splendid temple, served by pontiffs who were raised to the level of the ancient pontiffs of Rome, celebrated every fourth year by magnificent games, Sol Invictus was definitely promoted to the highest rank in the divine hierarchy and became the official protector of the Sovereigns and of the Empire… He [Aurelian] placed in his new sanctuary the images of Bel (Baal) and Helios, which he captured at Palmyra. In establishing this new State cult, Aurelian in reality proclaimed the dethronement of the old Roman idolatry and the accession of Semitic Sun-worship…

The first Sunday law issued 7th March, 321 A.D., speaks about Sunday only as the "venerable day of the sun", a title purely heathen. Codex Justinianus, lib.3, tit.12:3 quoted in "History of the Christian Church" by Philip Schaff, Vol.III, p.380, 7 vol.ed.

They emphasize the creation of light and the resurrection of the `Sun of Justice' nowhere commanded or even spoken of in the Bible.

The early church all the way up to 321AD, during the reign of Emperor Constantine, kept the Sabbath holy. "Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the sabbatical observance of Sunday is known to have been ordained is the sabbatical edict of Constantine, A.D. 32I." Chambers" Encyclopedia, Article "Sunday."

The first Sunday Law decree of a church council, was given about 16 years after Constantine' first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: "sabbato" shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out ["anathema,"--excomm unicated] from Christ." Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C.J. Hefele, "A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.

The influence of paganism then takes a foothold as the church decrees Sunday sacredness as seen in the Council of Laodicea (343-381?)
[p. 310] Can. 16.“On Saturday [Greek sabbaton,“the Sabbath”] the Gospels and other portions of the Scripture shall be read aloud.”…
[p. 316] Can. 29.“Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out [Greek anathema] from Christ.”…
[p. 320] Can. 49.“During Lent, the bread shall not be offered, except on Saturday and Sunday.”…
Can. 51.“During Lent, no feast of the martyrs shall be celebrated, but the holy martyrs shall be commemorated on the Saturdays and Sundays of Lent.”
Source: Charles Joseph Hefele, A History of the Christian Councils, Vol. 2, trans. and ed. by H. N. Oxenham (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1896), pp. 310, 316, 320.

Then you have other Councils of the Church which enforce Sunday observance.
[p. 105] The Council of Orleans (538), while protesting [p. 106] against an excessive Sabbatarianism, forbade all field work under pain of censure; and the Council of Macon (585) laid down that the Lord’s Day ‘is the day of perpetual rest, which is suggested to us by the type of the seventh day in the law and the prophets,’ and ordered a complete cessation of all kinds of business. How far the movement had gone by the end of the 6th cent. is shown by a letter of Gregory the Great (pope 590–604) protesting against the prohibition of baths on Sunday.
Source: M. G. Glazebrook,“Sunday,” in James Hastings, ed., Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (New York: Scribner, 1928), Vol. 12, pp. 105, 106.
If as many suppose, Christians as a whole observed Sunday in place of the "Jewish" Sabbath from resurrection Sunday forward, then why was it necessary for the church to enact ecclesiastical laws to enforce Sunday worship as a day of rest? Simply put, the issue to the Catholic Church has always been one of authority, authority to declare binding holy festival days. It is a mark of their authority to institute such days, even appropriating previously pagan days and declaring them obligatory, and that one commits a sin if you do not attend services on those days. The Bible is quite silent on Sunday sacredness, so the "Bible Only" Protestants contradict themselves by observing it as a replacement for the Sabbath.

So you see, the fourth commandments Sabbath was never changed by Jesus or His Apostles, but rather, the Sabbath change came long after Jesus and the Apostles through pagan and Papal Rome.

Hobie
Mar 13th 2010, 08:30 AM
Now some people misconstrue what Jesus said and say that He says to put 'our Rest in Christ'.
One of the main texts that describes the “rest” that Christ gives us is found in Matthew 11:28-30:

Matthew 11:28-30 - Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. " 30"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The word Christ used in verse 28 is anapauo, which means (Strong’s #373)

1) to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labour in order to recover and collect his strength

2) to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest

3) to keep quiet, of calm and patient expectation

Christ did not use the words sabbaton nor sabbatismos, for He wasn’t talking of the Sabbath at all. If Christ had meant that He was to become the new Sabbath He would have used one of those words else He would have confused everyone, including His disciples. The clear fact of the matter is Christ was telling them exactly what He said, that He would give them spiritual rest from sin. There is nothing in His statement, or those that follow, that indicate He was talking about Sabbath at all. As such, those that say “Christ is my Sabbath” really haven’t studied the texts; I’m sorry to say it that way but it is the only honest observation that can be made. In fact, I have looked at most of the available Bible translations and here is what I found:

The WEB, RKJNT, ASV, BBE, BWE, DBY, KJV, WBS, WEY, YLT, LITV, NIV, NAS, AMP, CEV, ESV, MSG, NLT, NLV, ISV, K21, NAB, RSV, NRS, ALT, GMT, CSB, and the NCV (28 in all) all render anapauo as “rest”; only the Douay-Rheims Bible (RHE) renders it differently as “refresh”. Notice that not a single Bible version makes the claim, even the expanded Bible versions, that Christ meant the Sabbath in this verse.

Wesley’s commentary on verse 28 reads as follows and I concur with his statement here

“Come to me - Here he shows to whom he is pleased to reveal these things to the weary and heavy laden; ye that labour - After rest in God: and are heavy laden - With the guilt and power of sin: and I will give you rest - I alone (for none else can) will freely give you (what ye cannot purchase) rest from the guilt of sin by justification, and from the power of sin by sanctification.”

Wesley’s conclusion is right on target. Notice that he does not even hint that the “rest” equates to the Sabbath in this verse.

You see, the reasoning used for the "Jesus is my Sabbath" belief is actually based on a play on words; since Sabbath is called a "rest" in the scriptures and then Christ states "He will give us rest" then that must mean Christ IS our Sabbath! Now wait, does this actually make logical sense? Does Jesus say that "He is our rest" or does He say "He will give us rest"? Clearly Christ said He will give us this rest, not that He is that rest. In studying this verse we also need to look at the verb being used "will give". "Will give" denotes a future action not a present one. Could it be that Christ was actually talking about His second advent? For that is when He comes with His rewards (Revelation 22:12).

We should all be careful to ensure we know what the Bible says on various topics before we build a doctrine of it.

Hobie
Mar 13th 2010, 08:32 AM
Now lets a closer look at Samuele Bacchiocchi's book From Sabbath to Sunday (used with the authors permission): A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity.

"...How did the change come about from Saturday to Sunday in early Christianity? To find an answer to this question I spent five years at the Pontifical University in Rome, investigating for my doctoral dissertation the earliest Christian documents. This short article represents a brief summary of my research.

Historically, the change from Sabbath to Sunday has been attributed to the ecclesiastical authority of the Roman Catholic church rather than to Biblical or apostolic precepts. Thomas Aquinas, for example, explicitly states that:
"the observance of the Lord's Day took the place of the observance of the Sabbath not by virtue of the [Biblical] precept but by the institution of the church." (1)
Recently, however, some scholars have argued that Sunday observance has a Biblical and apostolic origin. According to these scholars, from the inceptions of the Church the Apostles themselves chose the first day of the week in place of the seventh day in order to commemorate the resurrection of Christ. (2)
My own assessment of the sources is that this thesis is wrong on two counts. First, the change from Saturday to Sunday occurred sometime after 135 A.D. as a result of an interplay of political, social, pagan and religious factors to be mentioned below. Second, the change originated in Rome and not in Jerusalem. Before submitting the reasons for my conclusions, we shall briefly examine the alleged role of Christ, of the resurrection and of the Jerusalem church in the origin of Sunday.

Jesus and the Origin of Sunday
A popular view holds that Christ by his provocative method of Sabbath keeping-which caused considerable controversy with the religious leaders of His day-intended to pave the way for the abandonment of the Sabbath and the adoption of Sunday keeping instead. This view clearly distorts the intent of Christ's controversial Sabbath activities and teachings which were clearly designed not to nullify but to clarify the divine intent of the Fourth Commandment.

Christ never conceded to have broken the Sabbath commandment. On the contrary He defended Himself and His disciples from the charge of Sabbath breaking by appealing to the Scriptures: "Have you read . . ." (Matt 12:3-5). The intent of Christ's provocative Sabbath teachings and activities was not to pave the way for Sunday keeping, but rather to show the true meaning and function of the Sabbath, namely, a day "to do good" (Matt 12:8), "to save life" (Mark 3:4), to loose people from physical and spiritual bonds (Luke 13:16), and to show "mercy" rather than religiosity (Matt 12:7).

The Resurrection and the Origin of Sunday
Did the apostles introduce Sunday keeping instead of Sabbath keeping in order to commemorate Christ's resurrection by means of the Lord's Supper celebration? This view, though popular, is devoid of Biblical and historical support. The major reasons, briefly stated are the following.


No Command of Christ or of the Apostles
The New Testament never suggests or commands to celebrate Christ's resurrection by a weekly or annual Sunday celebration. This silence is noteworthy in view of the specific instructions given by Christ regarding such practices as baptism (Matt 28:19-20), the Lord's Supper (Mark 14:24-25; 1 Cor 11:23-26) and foot-washing (John 13:14-15).
If Jesus wanted the day of his resurrection to be observed as a day of rest and worship, would He not told the women and the disciples when He rose: "Come apart and celebrate My Resurrection?" Instead He told the women "Go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee" (Matt 28:10) and to the disciples "Go . . . make disciples . . . baptizing them" (Matt 28:19).None of the utterances of the risen Savior reveal an intent to memorialize His resurrection by making Sunday the new day of rest and worship.


No Designation of Sunday as Day of the Resurrection
Sunday is never called in the New Testament as "Day of the Resurrection." It is consistently called "First day of the week." The references to Sunday as day of the resurrection first appear in the early part of the fourth century. (3) By that time Sunday had become associated with the resurrection....."

"....The Earliest Reference to Sunday
The earliest explicit references to Sunday keeping are found in the writings of Barnabas (about 135 A.D.) and Justin Martyr (about 150 A.D.). Both writers do mention the resurrection as a basis for Sunday observance but only as the second of two reasons, important but not predominant. Barnabas' first theological motivation for Sunday keeping is eschatological, namely, that Sunday as "the eight day" represents "the beginning of another world." (4) Justin's first reason for the Christians' Sunday assembly is the inauguration of creation: "because it is the first day on which God, transforming the darkness and prime matter, created the world." (5)
The above indications suffice to discredit the claim that Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week caused the abandonment of the Sabbath and the adoption of Sunday. The truth is that initially the resurrection was celebrated existentially rather than liturgically, that is, by a victorious way of life rather than by a special day of worship....."

".....The attachment of the Jerusalem Church to the Mosaic Law is reflected in some of the decisions of the first Jerusalem Council held about 49-50 A.D. (See Acts 15). The exemption from circumcision is there granted only "to brethren who are of the Gentiles" (Acts 15:23). No concession is made for Jewish-Christians, who must continue to circumcise their children. Moreover, of the four provisions made applicable by the Jerusalem Council to Gentiles, one is moral (abstention from "unchastity") but three are ceremonial (even Gentile Christians are ordered to abstain "from contact with idols and from [eating] what has been strangled and from [eating] blood" (Acts 15:20). This concern of the Jerusalem Council for ritual defilement and Jewish food laws reflects its continued attachment to Jewish ceremonial law and its commands. It would be unthinkable that this Church at this early time would change the Sabbath to Sunday.
James' statement at the Jerusalem Council in support of his proposal to exempt Gentiles from circumcision but not from Mosaic laws in general, is also significant: "For generations past Moses has had spokesmen in every city; he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues" (Acts 15:21). All interpreters recognize that both in his proposal and in its justification, James reaffirms the binding nature of the Mosaic Law which was customarily taught every Sabbath in the synagogue.


Paul's Last Visit
Further insight is provided by Paul's last visit to Jerusalem. The Apostle was informed by James and the elders that thousand of converted Jews were "all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20). The same leaders then pressured Paul to prove to the people that he also "lived in observance of the law" (Acts 21-24), by undergoing a rite of purification at the Temple. In the light of this deep commitment to the observance of the Law, it is hardly conceivable that the Jerusalem Church would have abrogated one of its chief precepts-Sabbath keeping-and pioneered Sunday worship instead.


Did Sunday Originate After 70 A.D.?
The foregoing evidences has led some scholars to argue for the Palestinian origin of Sunday observance at a slightly later time, namely, after the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. (8) They presume that the flight of the Christians from Jerusalem to Pella as well as the psychological impact of the destruction of the Temple weaned Palestinian Christians away from Jewish observances such as Sabbath keeping.
This assumption is discredited by both Eusebius and Epiphanius who inform us that the Jerusalem Church after 70 A.D. and until Hadrian's siege of Jerusalem in 135 A.D., was composed of and administered by converted Jews, characterized as "zealous to insist on the literal observance of the Law." (9) The orthodox Palestinian Jewish-Christian sect of the Nazarenes, who most scholars regard as "the very direct descendants of the primitive community" (10) of Jerusalem, retained Sabbath keeping on Saturday until the fourth century. Indeed, seventh-day Sabbath keeping was regarded as one of this Church's distinguishing characteristics. (11) This implies that Sabbath observance was not only the traditional custom of the Jerusalem Church, but also of Palestinian Jewish-Christians long after 70 A.D.
Of all the Christian Churches, the Jerusalem Church was both ethnically and theologically the closest and most loyal to Jewish religious traditions, and thus the least likely to change the day of the Sabbath....."
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_64.pdf

Servant89
Mar 13th 2010, 02:59 PM
Greetings Hobie. Welcome. I can see you love the Lord (if you love me, keep my commandments... He said). I can see why you keep the Sabbath, it is because you want to please the Lord and keeping his commandments is a great way of doing that. I go to church on Sunday morning. I believe Sunday morning is the best time in the week do worship the Lord (even tough he is worthy to be praised continually). I have studied this subject considerably... so much, that if someone asks me to explain the SDA position, I know I will be able to convince everyone I am an SDA. That is because I have listened carefully to the SDA position for many years. My questions to you are these: Have you heard someone explain why we should worship the Lord on Sunday? and Can you explain why Christians worship the Lord on Sunday morning? If you say yes, it means you have been listening. If you say no, that it can not be explained, that there is no proof of that, then I would know you are a person that talks but would not listen to the person that disagrees with you. When I ask you if you can you explain why Christians worship the Lord on Sunday morning, I am not asking you if you agree with us or if you think we have a point, I am asking that to see if you have been listening to the counter point. The Bible says in Pro 18:13 that if I say Sunday, Sunday ! without hearing those that preach Sabbath, Sabbath, that I am a fool and should be ashamed of myself. The only way we can be in the position to make a judgement call is to wait until we hear everything that the prosecution and the defense has to say. I have heard your rationale many times before and it will take time to address each one, but before I start addressing those arguments I want to make sure you are "teachable" and can listen to those that do not agree with you. So, please answer the question:

Can you explain the why Christians worship the Lord on Sunday morning?

My next question to you would be: What are the top 10 arguments that Sunday worshipers use to justify worshiping the Lord on Sundays?

Shalom

losthorizon
Mar 13th 2010, 03:04 PM
We cannot trust the traditions of men on the Sabbath vs. Sunday issue, for this is not safe, nor in just mere human opinions.


<yawn>

Can we assume you are a disciple of the late Seventh-Day Adventist, Samuele Bacchiocchi? He was in error on so many topics it would be hard to name them all. The fourth commandment was fulfilled in Christ and nailed to His cross. Jesus is our "Sabbath Rest". The shadows of Judaism are forever redundant including Sabbath-keeping. The Christian faith is not about day-keeping. You may need to re-think.
A great need of the Christian world today is the clear recognition that we are not under the law, but the gospel; that the law was nailed to the cross and passed out of force when the new will was probated at Pentecost. ~ R.C. Fosters, Studies in the Life of Christ

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 13th 2010, 03:23 PM
<yawn>

Can we assume you are a disciple of the late Seventh-Day Adventist, Samuele Bacchiocchi? He was in error on so many topics it would be hard to name them all. The fourth commandment was fulfilled in Christ and nailed to His cross. Jesus is our "Sabbath Rest". The shadows of Judaism are forever redundant including Sabbath-keeping. The Christian faith is not about day-keeping. You may need to re-think.
A great need of the Christian world today is the clear recognition that we are not under the law, but the gospel; that the law was nailed to the cross and passed out of force when the new will was probated at Pentecost. ~ R.C. Fosters, Studies in the Life of Christ

I agree....

Paul said.. Let 'no man' judge you in meat, drink or any 'holy day'....

He Truely Indeed is our Rest....

Obviously .. some have 'not entered into' that Rest... as the Scripture Declares that those who are His.. Will Enter in....

maybe some need to go back and define what a 'christian' really is..

My First Question would be... are you Born Again from Above?

this not about religion or church membership or group affiliation or my parents were 'christians' or my grandparents were staunch church goers..

are ye Born Again..

Kahtar
Mar 13th 2010, 04:33 PM
Paul said.. Let 'no man' judge you in meat, drink or any 'holy day'....Then we should not judge, should we?
I thought the topic of the thread was 'What did Jesus teach........', so why is it being turned into a discussion of law nailed to a tree and questioning the OP's salvation? Why not just honestly discuss what Jesus DID teach?

Servant89
Mar 13th 2010, 04:48 PM
Then we should not judge, should we?
I thought the topic of the thread was 'What did Jesus teach........', so why is it being turned into a discussion of law nailed to a tree and questioning the OP's salvation? Why not just honestly discuss what Jesus DID teach?

Wise statement !

I would like to expand on that to keep us and the SDAs on the right track. When we say "honestly discuss what Jesus DID teach", lets limit ourselves to that and that only. Let us use only the word of God to figure out doctrine. And please, do not quote the father of lies (Satan) or any man like the pope as if his word or witness is needed to figure out doctrine. If we have to count on the pope or any other man, to figure out doctrine, we are in deep doo-doo. Let us limit ourselves to what God said and nothing else.

Isa 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, showing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Shalom

Love Fountain
Mar 13th 2010, 04:56 PM
Secular business should be laid aside. Shopping, laundry, homework, and housecleaning should be done during the six working days, and laid aside on the Sabbath so we can rest from our labors and be free to focus on our Creator Jesus Christ and share our love and worship Him.

Dear Hobie

Should a mother out of medicine whose baby awakes with a fever on Saturday morning go shopping for tylenol or motrin to lower the babes fever?

Should a dad go shopping on Saturday morning to get an antihistimine when his child who is allergic to bee stings gets stung and he has nothing in the house to help his kid who could die from the allergic reaction?

Should a child who needs all day and night Saturday and Sunday to do homework due at 8am Monday do their homework?

Should a couple clean the sewage overflow that filled their house on Saturday am?

Should a child who forgot to launder the clothing their parents expect them to wear to their wedding anniversary dinner that begins at 6:30pm Saturday evening when they realize the clothes their parents expect them to wear are soiled, stained and balled up in the dirty clothes hamper?

Should a man on his way to worship at church Saturday morning change his flat tire on his car so he can make the worship which is 30 miles away?

In my opinion we don't worship any "day", we honour our Father and His Son every day.


Matt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

HisLeast
Mar 13th 2010, 05:04 PM
If sabbath hasn't changed, then how come we never hear sermons on keeping Jubilee?
Sabbath is much, much more than what happens every 7th day.

losthorizon
Mar 13th 2010, 06:28 PM
Then we should not judge, should we?
I thought the topic of the thread was 'What did Jesus teach........', so why is it being turned into a discussion of law nailed to a tree...


But we are required to discern between the truth and error and the NT clearly states the entire Mosaical system including the fourth commandment was nailed to the cross – fulfilled and annulled by the work of Christ on the cross. Christians live and die under the law of Christ and that law is not about day-keeping.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Gal 3:23-29 KJV)

Kahtar
Mar 13th 2010, 07:26 PM
But we are required to discern between the truth and errorTrue, and so you should do. But don't judge the man for keeping Saturday holy instead of Sunday, and since you aren't able and do not have the authority, don't judge his heart. Stick to discussing truth and error.

and the NT clearly states the entire Mosaical system including the fourth commandment was nailed to the cross That is not so clear. What IS clear is that the curse of the law (that being death) has been done away in Christ. But Christ, Paul, John and Peter all told us to obey the commandments of God. They taught us that obedience to law cannot save us, and we should not try to use the law for that purpose, but nowhere did they say not to obey the law, quite the contrary. In fact, they taught that those who preach against the law are themselves lawless.
Everywhere in the NT we are taught not to sin. And sin is clearly defined in the NT as the transgression of the law of God.
1 John 3:4 KJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
If we are not to sin/transgress the law, then we must obey it, but not for righteousness sake, rather for holiness, for we are commanded to be holy, even He is holy.
The Mosaic covenant IS passed away, and the new covenant has taken it's place. But God's commandments, (and Christ's, for they are one God, remember?) have not and will not pass away.
What did John teach us?
1 John 5:2-4 KJV By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
The law is not a salvation issue, it's an obedience issue.
If Christ nailed His own law to the tree and nullified the law, as you say, then it is now okay to kill, murder, steal, lust, adulterate, hate God and disrespect our parents, for these things are also in the law you say is nullified. And since loving God and neighbor fulfills the whole law, then we should not do those because the law is nullified and we should not do them, and those two were part of the law of God as well.
The fact is, the law of God (which is separate from, but included in, the Mosaic law) has been fromt the beginning, has been a part of every covenant of God, from the Adamic covenant to the new covenant, and it WILL NOT pass away. The heaven and the earth will pass, but not His Word, which is the law.
But back to the sabbath, it is true, I believe, that we are now free to worship on whatever day we desire, EVEN IF IT"S SATURDAY, or even every day. We are also free to choose the day God (and Christ) chose just because He chose that day and because we love Him, and no man should judge us concerning what day we worship, even if it's saturday.

Now, back to what Jesus Christ, creator of the world and the sabbath, taught us about the sabbath.
What DID Jesus teach about the sabbath?
Do you have something different than what the OP provided? Can you refute what he said Jesus taught about the sabbath? If so, please do so.

notuptome
Mar 13th 2010, 08:43 PM
I just meet with other Christians on the first day of the week like it says in Acts 20:7.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Kahtar
Mar 13th 2010, 08:56 PM
I just meet with other Christians on the first day of the week like it says in Acts 20:7.No problem in that, far as I can see. But on that particular scripture, consider this (and that's really all I'm suggesting):
At that time, clearly the believers did gather on the Sabbath/Saturday. But, if you remember, the day began and ended at sundown each day. Thus, the sabbath began on Friday nite. They would have gathered at the synagogue during the day on Saturday, and would have normally departed at sundown on Saturday, as the sabbath was over at that point. By the time it was dark, it was now the first day of the week.
Paul tells them to make their collection on the first day of the week. Logically, that would have taken place on Saturday evening, after sundown, before they all went home for the night. It would have been probably the last thing they did before dispersing.

losthorizon
Mar 14th 2010, 12:20 AM
That is not so clear. What IS clear is that the curse of the law (that being death) has been done away in Christ.


But it IS clear - Christians are not bound by God to “keep” the 4th commandment of the Law of Moses – the Christian faith is not about “day-keeping". There is not one command for even one Christian to keep the Sabbath law that was nailed to the cross.
For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage…Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. (Gal 5:1, 4)

Therefore, let no one judge you in matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to Christ. (Col 2:16-17 ISV)Does your theology require you to keep the Sabbath - the shadow of the things to come?

losthorizon
Mar 14th 2010, 12:26 AM
Paul tells them to make their collection on the first day of the week. Logically, that would have taken place on Saturday evening, after sundown, before they all went home for the night. It would have been probably the last thing they did before dispersing.
LOL - why exactly would that be "logical"? The truth is Christians celebrated the Lord’s Day (Sunday) in memory of the resurrection of Christ from the apostolic age until today - Jesus rose from the grace on the first day of the week. It would follow (logically) that the collection for the saints would also be completed on that same day when they met.
The celebration of the Lord’s Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord’s Day of the Lord." ~ Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church

Kahtar
Mar 14th 2010, 01:05 AM
LOL - why exactly would that be "logical"? The truth is Christians celebrated the Lord’s Day (Sunday) in memory of the resurrection of Christ from the apostolic age until today - Jesus rose from the grace on the first day of the week. It would follow (logically) that the collection for the saints would also be completed on that same day when they met.LOL, the truth is found the Bible. I'll take it over the opinion of Philip Schaff, thank you.

losthorizon
Mar 14th 2010, 03:43 AM
LOL, the truth is found the Bible. I'll take it over the opinion of Philip Schaff, thank you.
Actually, Schaff's history regarding the first day of the week agrees with the truth presented in Holy Writ. You didn't answer the question - does your theology require you to keep the Sabbath as a matter of law just as the theology presented by Samuele Bacchiocchi (SDA) requires day-keeping (or else)?

Kahtar
Mar 14th 2010, 03:54 AM
Actually, Schaff's history regarding the first day of the week agrees with the truth presented in Holy Writ.Am I supposed to simply take your word for that, or can you provide that evidence.

You didn't answer the question - does your theology require you to keep the Sabbath as a matter of law just as the theology presented by Samuele Bacchiocchi (SDA) requires day-keeping (or else)?I did answer the question. You just didn't read it. See post 14. Actually take the time to read what I wrote there. The post was in response to you.
But, as yet, NONE of you have addressed the OP, or refuted him. This thread isn't about me, it's about his topic 'What did Christ teach about the sabbath....'.
Perhaps it's being avoided for some reason.............?

Firefighter
Mar 14th 2010, 04:02 AM
Jesus clearly taught the Sabbath. Hebrews clearly teaches us that Jesus is our Sabbath. He is our rest every day.

Amos_with_goats
Mar 14th 2010, 04:04 AM
As for me I am thankful.

I am thankful for rest.

I am thankful for fellowship.

I am thankful that I am free... and that there are many blessings!

Thankful for the different understandings in this thread, they remind me of the different understandings I have had over the years...

Blessings to all who seek. I would encourage that you include Romans 8:1-2 in your study as you consider this... and other... matters. :)

Brother Mark
Mar 14th 2010, 04:04 AM
True, and so you should do. But don't judge the man for keeping Saturday holy instead of Sunday, and since you aren't able and do not have the authority, don't judge his heart. Stick to discussing truth and error.
That is not so clear. What IS clear is that the curse of the law (that being death) has been done away in Christ. But Christ, Paul, John and Peter all told us to obey the commandments of God. They taught us that obedience to law cannot save us, and we should not try to use the law for that purpose, but nowhere did they say not to obey the law, quite the contrary. In fact, they taught that those who preach against the law are themselves lawless.
Everywhere in the NT we are taught not to sin. And sin is clearly defined in the NT as the transgression of the law of God.
1 John 3:4 KJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
If we are not to sin/transgress the law, then we must obey it, but not for righteousness sake, rather for holiness, for we are commanded to be holy, even He is holy.
The Mosaic covenant IS passed away, and the new covenant has taken it's place. But God's commandments, (and Christ's, for they are one God, remember?) have not and will not pass away.
What did John teach us?
1 John 5:2-4 KJV By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
The law is not a salvation issue, it's an obedience issue.
If Christ nailed His own law to the tree and nullified the law, as you say, then it is now okay to kill, murder, steal, lust, adulterate, hate God and disrespect our parents, for these things are also in the law you say is nullified. And since loving God and neighbor fulfills the whole law, then we should not do those because the law is nullified and we should not do them, and those two were part of the law of God as well.
The fact is, the law of God (which is separate from, but included in, the Mosaic law) has been fromt the beginning, has been a part of every covenant of God, from the Adamic covenant to the new covenant, and it WILL NOT pass away. The heaven and the earth will pass, but not His Word, which is the law.
But back to the sabbath, it is true, I believe, that we are now free to worship on whatever day we desire, EVEN IF IT"S SATURDAY, or even every day. We are also free to choose the day God (and Christ) chose just because He chose that day and because we love Him, and no man should judge us concerning what day we worship, even if it's saturday.

Now, back to what Jesus Christ, creator of the world and the sabbath, taught us about the sabbath.
What DID Jesus teach about the sabbath?
Do you have something different than what the OP provided? Can you refute what he said Jesus taught about the sabbath? If so, please do so.

I like this post a lot. Thanks for taking the time to type it out Kahtar. I really liked the part about obeying not so much for righteousness but for holiness.

Grace and peace,

Mark

newinchrist4now
Mar 14th 2010, 04:06 AM
So should we stop going Sunday and go Saturday?

losthorizon
Mar 14th 2010, 04:10 AM
See post 14. Actually take the time to read what I wrote there. The post was in response to you.


Is it your position that man could "kill, murder, steal, lust, adulterate," etc before the Law was given to Moses as Sinai? It appears to be your notion that every time you read the word "law" in Holy Writ it must apply to the "Law of Moses". This of course is not true. It has always been against God's "law" to commit the above sins - this was true "from the beginning" - hundreds of years before Sinai. Christians live and die under the law of Christ (not the law of Moses) and the law of Christ does not include the command to keep the Sabbath.

Again, the Christian faith is not about “day-keeping" and there is not one command for one Christian to keep the Sabbath law that was nailed to the cross. Those who require "Sabbath keeping" are in error. The OP quotes the work of SDA apologist, Samuele Bacchiocchi and his organization requires Sabbath-keeping as a legal requirement. Is he in error?

Kahtar
Mar 14th 2010, 05:21 AM
Is it your position that man could "kill, murder, steal, lust, adulterate,"Good grief! Go back and read what I said.

It appears to be your notion that every time you read the word "law" in Holy Writ it must apply to the "Law of Moses".Again, go back and actually read what I wrote.

It has always been against God's "law" to commit the above sins - this was true "from the beginning" - hundreds of years before Sinai.Had you read what I wrote, you would see that is exactly what I was saying. Again, go back and actually read what I wrote.


Christians live and die under the law of Christ (not the law of Moses).I agree. As I wrote before (you don't seem interested in what I say, only what you think I'm saying), the Mosaic covenant and the law of God were separate things, although the Mosaic covenant included God's law.

and the law of Christ does not include the command to keep the Sabbath. Okay, what exactly does the law of Christ (and therefore the law of God, because Christ IS God) include?


Again, the Christian faith is not about “day-keeping"Had you read what I have been writing, you would see I agree with this statement.

and there is not one command for one Christian to keep the Sabbath law that was nailed to the cross.Can you provide the scripture that says the sabbath law was nailed to the cross? And why that one and not the one to honor your parents, or to not kill, etc.?

Those who require "Sabbath keeping" are in error.I agree. Requiring it( and any of the law) suggests it is necessary for salvation, which Paul clearly taught against.

The OP quotes the work of SDA apologist, Samuele Bacchiocchi and his organization requires Sabbath-keeping as a legal requirement. Is he in error?As a requirement of salvation, yes that would be in error.
But, uh, back to the OP, what DID Christ teach about the sabbath?

Kahtar
Mar 14th 2010, 05:28 AM
So should we stop going Sunday and go Saturday?You should worship on whatever day your heart tells you to worship on. Or, worship on both days if you like.
What does scripture say?
Romans 14:4-6 KJV Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
This means if you are fully persuaded to worship on Sunday, then do so. But, don't judge another (not saying you are) for worshipping on a different day.

newinchrist4now
Mar 14th 2010, 06:22 AM
I apologize for stealing the thread a bit here. So why are the 9 commandments more strictly looked at but this one lone commandment is so hotly contested. In my journey in this life of faith I never seen a command so bandied about on what to do with it, how to keep it or even weather to keep it. I theorized once in my head that number 4 was our tree but instead of being commanded not to we were told to and yet still can not quite keep it right, maybe because as humans we buck at the idea of strict orders.

Servant89
Mar 14th 2010, 06:25 AM
Hobie... where are you?

You said: <<We are to work at our normal jobs during the six working days, but from sundown Friday night until sundown Saturday night, we should rest from our work. >>

Tell us, did Jesus work at his normal job during the six working days and not on Sabbath days? Did he only work 6 days a week and not on the Sabbath day? Was it typical for Jesus to rest on Sabbath days?

Tell us, what does the feast of firstfruits represent? and the feast of Pentecost, what does it represent? What was fulfilled on the feast of Pentecost? Why were these two feasts commanded by God to be celebrated on Sunday morning? Why did the Holy Ghost show up and started the first Church harvest on the day of Pentecost (Sunday morning)?

Shalom

Firstfruits
Mar 14th 2010, 11:00 AM
We cannot trust the traditions of men on the Sabbath vs. Sunday issue, for this is not safe, nor in just mere human opinions. Instead we need to know what scripture actually says, and above all, what Jesus Christ Himself taught, so we accept His pure teaching as our final authority.

Jesus Christ is “Lord even of the Sabbath day” as the Creator. Jesus said,“For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. By identifying Himself as “Lord even of the Sabbath day,” Jesus of was showing that He was the One who originally created Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day. And the New Testament makes clear that Jesus is the Creator...

"All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that has been made." John 1:3
"He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not". John 1:10
"God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." Eph. 3:9
"For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Col. 1:16

So scripture makes clear Jesus Christ is our Creator and also gave us the Sabbath for man not just the Jews.
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"Mark 2:27

Not only did Jesus create the Sabbath but He makes clear it was the seventh day and Holy...
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:11

"And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning." Exodus 16:23


Now you can check the scriptures and it will make clear the Sabbath is on Saturday, while Sunday is "the first day of the week" (Mat. 28:1; Mark 16:1, 2, etc). Jesus Christ regularly kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16), taught much about the Sabbath (Mat. 12:12; 24:20), and clearly stated that He is "Lord even of the Sabbath day" (Mat. 12:8). Jesus Christ never mentioned "the first day of the week" even one time. He taught nothing about it. The Sabbath continues after the cross (Luke 23:54-56) and was kept in the book of Acts by both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 13:42-44; 16:13).
There is no biblical authorization for the change of the Bible Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

God made the Sabbath at the beginning of the world (Gen. 2:1-3) before any Jews existed, to be a blessing to all people. Most importantly, it is a special sign that Jesus Christ is the true Creator of heaven and earth ( John 1:1-3, 10; Col. 1:16; Ex. 20:11; Ezekiel 20:12).

When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.¨ Thus Jesus followed His Father's example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?

Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath:

Mark 2:27
(27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Note: The Sabbath was made “for man” and when the Sabbath first came into the picture (Genesis 2:1-3) the only man alive then was Adam and his wife Eve. Therefore, the Sabbath was made for them, and for their offspring.

The understanding of the Law was given to man way before Moses as scripture makes clear...

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Genesis 26:5


The Ten Commandments were not part of Moses’ ceremonial law as Exodus 19, 20, and 31 clearly show. Also, there are many Bible references that show there was a distinguishment made between the Commandments and that of Moses’ book of the law.

Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, Jesus carefully taught how it should be observed.Matthew 12:1-13

Jesus is also known as the Lord of the Sabbath.Matthew 12:8. Why be Lord of something you were going to abolish?

Christ instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection.Matthew 24:20. When one reads all of Matt 24 they’ll see that Jesus was warning the disciples of the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem – which occurred about 40 years after His resurrection. Are we to believe that Christ didn’t know when this siege would take place?

Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it "the Sabbath day." Acts 13:14-16.Sounds like the Sabbath was still in effect even then, well after Christ's death.

The New Testament alone mentions the Sabbath day no less than 84 times - sounds like God is trying to tell us something. And never once is there a change of the Sabbath day to any other nor was it abolished.

Luke 23:56 - And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Jesus' own mother observed the Sabbath AFTER Jesus died. If He had changed or done away with the Sabbath day (having nailed it to the cross), wouldn't His own mother have known it? She was a follower of the Messiah; Mary was certainly would have known of any changes as she was at the cross. Now lets see what Jesus did:

Luke 4:16
(16) And he came to Nazareth, where he [Jesus Christ] had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Jesus Christ said to keep the commandments:
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17

Jesus never said that the Sabbath would change even after His death:
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.

Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D.(40 years after the Cross).

He kept the seventh day as the Sabbath from Creation and in His life on earth, and Christ is our example, and He says if we love HIM to keep HIS Commandments.

So, when was the Sabbath made? It was made at Creation. By the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on the seventh day He rested from all His work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He rested from all the work of creating that He had done.

The fourth commandment tells the same story:

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy ...... for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but He rested on the seventh day. Therefore,(for that reason) the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Now lets see a important day in our life like the day we were born, what would you think of someone suggesting that you change your birthday to the following day or a few after, or perhaps to the day before? Is that your birthday, the day you were born, No of course not.

The same is true of the day the fourth commandment specifies as the day God made Holy, a day of rest for man. To be truly a cellebration of Creation, it has to be the seventh day of the week rather than the first or the fifth. Did God make a mistake in the day and made Sunday Holy and forgot to tell us? No, and neither can man change what God has created and it was the seventh day that God made holy.

The Sabbath is a special day to focus on Jesus Christ our Maker: Jesus is “the Lord” who made the world in six days, and “rested on the seventh day.” Thus the Sabbath is a special day to focus on the Jesus Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of all life. It is a day to come apart from the normal stresses and cares of everyday living, to be refreshed and blessed by the great Creator who loves and died for us.

We are to work at our normal jobs during the six working days, but from sundown Friday night until sundown Saturday night, we should rest from our work. Late Friday afternoon, after Jesus died, "the Sabbath drew on." Luke 23:54. When the sun went down, Christ's followers "rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56.

Secular business should be laid aside. Shopping, laundry, homework, and housecleaning should be done during the six working days, and laid aside on the Sabbath so we can rest from our labors and be free to focus on our Creator Jesus Christ and share our love and worship Him.

Worshiping on the sabbath is not the same as worshiping the Sabbath as Jesus is. The rest on the seventh day is not the rest we have in Christ. When we worship Jesus, our Sabbath we are promised his rest. Our Sabbath is not just a day.

The rest/Sabbath is according to the gospel of Christ.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Mar 14th 2010, 02:08 PM
Okay, what exactly does the law of Christ (and therefore the law of God, because Christ IS God) include?

The law of Christ (God’s “perfect law of liberty”) is a conceptual law based on the principles of faith and love. Christ’s law ("the law of God") is summed up in the words of John…

And this is his commandment, we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23As contrasted with the law of Moses (a law based on works) – the law of Christ is a law based on faith and love - the difference between the two laws – one is a law of works the other a law of faith.



Can you provide the scripture that says the sabbath law was nailed to the cross?

The Ten Commandments – the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones…the handwriting of requirements that was against us were nailed to the cross.
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14 (NKJV)

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2Co 3:7-18 KJV)

back to the OP, what DID Christ teach about the sabbath?

Jesus (God) taught the Jews that the Sabbath was the only commandment found in the Ten Commandments that was to be "throughout your generations" – a phrase that indicates the Sabbath was temporary in nature and only for the Jews.
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations… Exodus 31:13When the Jewish economy ended at the cross the Sabbath was no longer needed. The Sabbath was only given to the Jews as a memorial to their deliverance from Egyptian bondage – it was a sign between God and the Hebrew people only. There is no record of any Gentile required to keep the seventh day. From Adam to Abraham we do not see any Gentile ever commanded to keep that day. In the “Great Commission” Jesus commanded His disciples to “go and preach” the gospel of Christ but nowhere does that divine commission include the command to keep the Sabbath day. Why? Because Christians have never been commanded to keep that day. Christians from the apostolic age until today have assembled on the first day of the week to celebrate the Lord's resurrection from the grave.

HisLeast
Mar 14th 2010, 04:17 PM
I apologize for stealing the thread a bit here. So why are the 9 commandments more strictly looked at but this one lone commandment is so hotly contested. In my journey in this life of faith I never seen a command so bandied about on what to do with it, how to keep it or even weather to keep it. I theorized once in my head that number 4 was our tree but instead of being commanded not to we were told to and yet still can not quite keep it right, maybe because as humans we buck at the idea of strict orders.

Because it is
1) Confusing and
2) Essential.

It seems to me scripture can be used to support two contradictory stances, and both very effectively. I can only pick one.
But if I'm wrong about Sabbath, I have trillions of trillions of trillions of centuries to ponder that mistake as I boil alive in a lake of fire. And that will only be the beginning of the suffering.

Servant89
Mar 14th 2010, 09:47 PM
<<So why are the 9 commandments more strictly looked at but this one lone commandment is so hotly contested.>>

TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER…

Commandment # 1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30; 1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19. Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; 2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2: Stay away from idols. Acts 15:20,29; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 5:11; 1Th 1:9; Acts 17:16; Acts 21:25; 1Cor 6:9; 1Pe 4:3-4; 1Cor 10:7,14; 1John 5:21; Rev 2:14,20; Rev 9:20; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1; Rev 16:9; Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31; Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT DIRECTLY EXHORTS US TO KEEP # 4 OR DIRECTLY WARNS THOSE THAT BREAK IT

Commadment # 5: Honor your father and mother. Rom 1:30; 2Tim 3:2; Mat 19:19; Luke 18:20; Mat 15:4; Mark 10:19; Eph 6:2; Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6: Do not kill. Mark 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; Rom 1:29; Gal 5:21; 1Tim 1:9; 1Pe 4:15; 1John 3:15; Rev 9:21; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7: Do not comit adultery. Mar 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 16:18; Luke 18:20; Heb 13:4; Mat 5:27; Gal 5:19; Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:121; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 13:9; 1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8: Do not steal. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Rom 2:21; 1Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:28; 1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9. Do not lie. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; John 8:44; Acts 5:3; Col 3:9; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10. Do not covet. Eph 5:3,5; Mark 7:22-23; 2Pe 2:14; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; luke 12:15; 1Cor 5:11; 1Tim 6:10; 1Tim 3:2; Rom 1:29; Rom 7:7; Col 3:5-6.

Commandment # 4 is the exception to this rule. There is not direct exhortation or warning in the New Testament telling us we should keep the commandment concerning the Sabbath. That is amazing! Why is that? Did God forget something? Some claim that Luke 23:56 and Heb 4 are examples of direct order to keep commandment # 4 but they are not. Luke 23:56 is a documentation of history just like Gen 21:4. It is not a direct exhortation like we see for the other commandments. Hebrews chapter 4 is not a direct exhortation either.

SHALOM

Kahtar
Mar 14th 2010, 10:27 PM
The law of Christ (God’s “perfect law of liberty”) is a conceptual law based on the principles of faith and love. Christ’s law ("the law of God") is summed up in the words of John…

And this is his commandment, we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23As contrasted with the law of Moses (a law based on works) – the law of Christ is a law based on faith and love - the difference between the two laws – one is a law of works the other a law of faith.
Okay. I understand what you're saying, and I actually agree somewhat. I have a little trouble with the thought that faith and love are merely concepts. I think they go way beyond concept. I think, with James, that they require real, tangible action on our part. Faith without works is dead faith. By the same token, love requires much more than mere concept or mental assent. Your spouse requires much more than mental assent, so how much more our Lord?
But, beyond that, yes, Christ's law is based upon faith and love.
Jesus taught that all the law and the prophets were based upon the two commandments, to love God, and love your neighbor. Thus, God's law, and the covenant of Moses, were based upon love also. In fact, clear back in Deuteronomy, we find the law to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Just as John wrote in the verse you provided.
And then, Since Jesus is the Word, and the Word was in the beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, that necessarily makes all the law of God also the law of Christ. Just thought I'd throw that in there.:D
It is true, that the covenant of Moses was 'works' oriented. But it was always intended to be a commandment of love, not merely action. It was action based upon love. Or supposed to be. Problem was/is, the Israelites focused so much on the outward doing, that they completely overlooked the inward love. Jesus haranged them a good bit about that.
Of course, that's not to say that ALL Israelites did that. We find many, written in the Word, who obeyed and walked in love and faith. Hebrews devotes a good bit about the faith of the patriarchs.
Faith, like love, has ALWAYS been the focus God intended. That was the purpose behind the law to begin with.
You see, it's not sufficient to just tell someone to love God. They need also to HOW to love God. Same with loving neighbors. And THAT was the intent of the law. To show them how to approach and love God, and how to love their neighbor. It was a set of guidelines and parameters lovingly provided them by God Himself.
And used as God intended, we find some who delighted in that set of instructions. David said things like 'Your word is a lamp unto my feet', and 'I delight in your law'. David did not find those instructions grievous, but rather a help and guide to show the way into the kingdom.


The Ten Commandments – the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones…the handwriting of requirements that was against us were nailed to the cross.[INDENT]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14 (NKJV)From this, I can only assume that you believe all the law of God was 'nailed to the tree' and taken away.
In a sense, I can agree with that, but not entirely.
The law was a 'ministration of death' because violation of it resulted in death. The law did not actually bring death, the punishment for breaking the law brought death. The law is good. Just ask Paul.
But, since none of us can consistently keep the law, and all have broken it, then the sentence of the law has passed upon each of us, that being death. Because the law was broken, a death must occur. The question is, whose death? We can choose to suffer our own death, or we can accept the death Christ suffered in our place.
If we accept Christ's death in our place, then the penalty for our breaking the law has already been paid, and we are free from that burden. We are free from death. The punishment no longer hangs over our head.
Even so, Paul and the others ALL instructed us not to walk in sin. Sin is the violation of God's law. That means, we should still try to walk according to the law. Remember the law is based on love and faith. All the law, whether found in the OT or the NT. As long as we walk in love and faith, we are fulfilling the whole law. What law? The law of God.
But if we fail, and we do, time and again, we needn't fear death, because death has already been paid. We simply confess our screwup, and keep going, little by little learning to walk according to God's law of love.


The Sabbath was only given to the Jews as a memorial to their deliverance from Egyptian bondage – it was a sign between God and the Hebrew people only.I dont agree with this. I believe the sabbath was instituted on the seventh day, and was made for man, not just Hebrew man.
But again, the concept behind the sabbath (which was much more than merely commemorating the exodus) is what is important, and thus in our freedom in Christ, we can choose any day we like, including Saturday, to physically rest from our labors and spend time walking and talking with God and worshipping Him, and doing good things with and for our families and neighbors.


There is no record of any Gentile required to keep the seventh day. From Adam to Abraham we do not see any Gentile ever commanded to keep that day.I agree there was no written command to keep the seventh day holy. But all men up to the time of Nimrod and many afterward understood that God had made that seventh day holy. And, BTW, all men until the time of Abraham were 'Gentiles'.

In the “Great Commission” Jesus commanded His disciples to “go and preach” the gospel of Christ but nowhere does that divine commission include the command to keep the Sabbath day.
[B]Matthew 28:19-20 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus told them to teach all nations everything that He had taught them. So what all did He teach them?
Matthew 12:8 KJV For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Matthew 12:12 KJV How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Matthew 24:20-21 KJV But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.(The sabbath will still be around in the great tribulation)
Mark 2:27-28 KJV And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


Christians from the apostolic age until today have assembled on the first day of the week to celebrate the Lord's resurrection from the grave.Christians from the apostolic age would be all those who lived at the time of the apostles, and we see in scripture that the Gentiled did indeed observe the sabbath. You can't get away from that one. It's written in scripture.

losthorizon
Mar 14th 2010, 10:44 PM
There is not direct exhortation or warning in the New Testament telling us we should keep the commandment concerning the Sabbath. That is amazing! Why is that? Did God forget something?


God didn't forget - He fulfilled. The Sabbath law was fulfilled at the Cross. The Sabbath law was made known to man when God…
”came down also upon mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them right ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments, and made known unto them thy holy Sabbath?” (Nehemiah 9:13-14).

“Jehovah made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day” (Deuteronomy 5:3).The Sabbath was not “made known” to mankind until after the Jews were delivered by God’s hand from Egypt. It was never given to man before that time and it was never given to all men. It wasn’t given to the Patriarchs and it was never given to Gentiles. It was a memorial to the Jews only and when the Jewish dispensation ended and the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ the 4th commandment was not part of that New Covenant – Jesus (the Lord of the Sabbath) became our Sabbath rest when He paid the debt for our sins.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" ~ Jesus Christ

losthorizon
Mar 14th 2010, 11:21 PM
Okay. I understand what you're saying, and I actually agree somewhat. I have a little trouble with the thought that faith and love are merely concepts.


A concept is simply a “cognitive unit of meaning” and in this respect, faith and love are concepts from the mind of God revealed to man.


From this, I can only assume that you believe all the law of God was 'nailed to the tree' and taken away. In a sense, I can agree with that, but not entirely.
To clarify - I believe the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses in its entirety was nailed to the cross. Christians are under the *law of God* but not the law of Moses. The law of Moses was the only law given by God that contained the commandment to keep the Sabbath and it was given to the Hebrew nation alone. The law of Christ is not about day-keeping – it is about faith and love. The law of Christ does not command Sabbath-keeping – never has and never will.


I dont agree with this. I believe the sabbath was instituted on the seventh day, and was made for man, not just Hebrew man.

Well Kahtar the onus is yours to provide evidence that God commanded one Gentile to keep the Sabbath. The truth is the Sabbath was only given to the Hebrew nation at Sinai. The Sabbath was not given to the Patriarchs and it was never given to Gentiles. It was a memorial to the Jews for their deliverance from slavery.
”God came down also upon mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them right ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments, and made known unto them thy holy Sabbath?” (Nehemiah 9:13-14).
Jesus told them to teach all nations everything that He had taught them. So what all did He teach them?
The “Great Commission” from the mouth of Jesus did not include the command to keep the Sabbath. There is not one command found in the NT for Christians to keep that day. The Christian faith is not about day-keeping.

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 01:03 AM
God didn't forget - He fulfilled. The Sabbath law was fulfilled at the Cross. The Sabbath law was made known to man when God…

”came down also upon mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them right ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments, and made known unto them thy holy Sabbath?” (Nehemiah 9:13-14).

“Jehovah made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day” (Deuteronomy 5:3).
The Sabbath was not “made known” to mankind until after the Jews were delivered by God’s hand from Egypt. It was never given to man before that time and it was never given to all men. It wasn’t given to the Patriarchs and it was never given to Gentiles. It was a memorial to the Jews only and when the Jewish dispensation ended and the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ the 4th commandment was not part of that New Covenant – Jesus (the Lord of the Sabbath) became our Sabbath rest when He paid the debt for our sins.

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" ~ Jesus Christ


AMEN ! We are in agreement. Heb chapters 3 and 4 (besides Neh 9:13-14) clearly indicates that the law of the Sabbath was made known to man for the first time (Heb 4:6) in Exo 16, not before that time. That is clear and in line with Scriptures. Those that claim that it was given to man at Creation have to "ASSUME" it was because there is no biblical reference documenting any man kept it before mana came down from heaven.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 01:15 AM
Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT DIRECTLY EXHORTS US TO KEEP # 4 OR DIRECTLY WARNS THOSE THAT BREAK IT

Careful ! The Holy Spirit is the narrator of the gospels. Do not question what he says. There can not be any reference in the NT stating something like: <<Remember not to work on Sabbath days>> or <<Sabbath breakers shall not inherit the kingdom of God>>. There can not be anything like that because that commandment states: Six days shall thou work, but on the seventh day thou shall rest. But God said:

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
12 Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Shalom

newinchrist4now
Mar 15th 2010, 01:22 AM
Because it is
1) Confusing and
2) Essential.

It seems to me scripture can be used to support two contradictory stances, and both very effectively. I can only pick one.
But if I'm wrong about Sabbath, I have trillions of trillions of trillions of centuries to ponder that mistake as I boil alive in a lake of fire. And that will only be the beginning of the suffering.

Well I wouldn't hope we would burn, maybe lose a jewel in our crown. :)

Kahtar
Mar 15th 2010, 02:25 AM
Well Lost, I am clearly not going to make you see anything you dont want to see, so I'll end it there. I do have a couple questions that you perhaps can give answer to:

The “Great Commission” from the mouth of Jesus did not include the command to keep the Sabbath. There is not one command found in the NT for Christians to keep that day.Since the sabbath wasn't commanded, as you say, then can you explain to us why all the apostles including Paul, and the Gentile Christians all observed the sabbath?

The Christian faith is not about day-keeping.You keep saying this, and I'm thinking now perhaps you view the keeping of ANY day holy to somehow be wrong.So I'll ask, if one wants to keep a day holy, be it Saturday, Sunday, or some other day, do you see a problem with that?

HisLeast
Mar 15th 2010, 02:35 AM
Well I wouldn't hope we would burn, maybe lose a jewel in our crown. :)

No. We'll pretty much burn. And burn and burn and burn.

Hobie
Mar 15th 2010, 02:36 AM
We have this account of only one instance in which it was done. (Acts 20:7.)That was done in the night-after midnight. (Verses 7-11.) Jesus celebrated it on Thursday evening (Luke 22), and the disciples sometimes did it every day (Acts 2:42-46.) It was not their custom to meet on that day.There was no requirement to break bread on that day.

Lets read scripture and see what it says, not read into scripture. Sunday shows up in the Bible at creation and it was not holy or blessed or sanctified and it shows clearly work done on Sunday, the first day of the week. (Genesis l: l-5.) None of the patriarchs or prophets ever kept it. His holy people used the first day of the week as a common working day for 4,000 years, at least and God Himself calls it a "working" day. (Ezekiel 46:1.)

Christ did not rest upon it and Jesus was a carpenter (Mark 6:3), and worked at His trade until He was thirty years old. He kept the Sabbath and worked six days in the week, as all admit.
Those that were fisherman or other trades of the apostles worked upon it never rested upon it.
Christ never blessed it, or sanctified it or said anything about it.

In all the New Testament we have a record of only one religious meeting held upon that day, and even this was a night meeting. (Acts 20:5-12.)
it and no blessing is promised for its observance. It is simply called “first day of the week.”
Paul directed the saints to look over their secular affairs on that day. (1Corinthians 16:2.)
The Bible nowhere says that the first day of the week commemorates the resurrection of Christ. This is a tradition of men, which contradicts the law of God. (Matthew 15:1-9.) Baptism commemorates the burial and resurrection of Jesus. (Romans 6:3-5.)

HisLeast
Mar 15th 2010, 02:39 AM
I don't mean to bring this up again... well... actually I do. But why does the discussion of Sabbath always revolve around one day a week, rather than the plethora of other laws that revolve around the concept of sabbath.

Hobie
Mar 15th 2010, 02:49 AM
Now here are some of the arguments used against the Sabbath in this study by my buddy Palehorse, take a look and you will get some of your questions on this issue answered:

Argument #1:
"The Sabbath was for the Jews.¨
o It is not a Jewish institution, for it was made about 2,300 years before Jews existed, right at creation.Genesis 2:2-3. To say the Sabbath is just for Jews is to say that marriage is just for the Jews as well since both the Sabbath and marriage were given to Adam and Eve in the beginning.
o The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God" or "my Sabbath¨ (meaning it is God's Sabbath).
o Mark 2:27 - And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:
(Made for who? MAN! That is a silly way to spell Jew or Israelite.) “Man” here means mankind.
o God has pronounced a special blessing on all the Gentiles who will keep it.Isaiah 56:6,7

Argument #2:
"That was the old covenant - Jesus did away with the Sabbath and all the other ceremonial laws.”
o When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life.Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.¨ Thus Jesus followed His Father's example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?
o The Ten Commandments were not part of Moses’ ceremonial law as Exodus 19, 20, and 31 clearly show. Also, there are many Bible references that show there was a distinguishment made between the Commandments and that of Moses’ book of the law.
o Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, Jesus carefully taught how it should be observed.Matthew 12:1-13
o Jesus is also known as the Lord of the Sabbath.Matthew 12:8. Why be Lord of something you were going to abolish?
o Christ instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection.Matthew 24:20. When one reads all of Matt 24 they’ll see that Jesus was warning the disciples of the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem – which occurred about 40 years after His resurrection. Are we to believe that Christ didn’t know when this siege would take place?
o Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it "the Sabbath day." Acts 13:14-16.Sounds like the Sabbath was still in effect even then, well after Christ's death.
o The New Testament alone mentions the Sabbath day no less than 84 times - sounds like God is trying to tell us something. And never once is there a change of the Sabbath day to any other nor was it abolished.
o Luke 23:56 - And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Jesus' own mother observed the Sabbath AFTER Jesus died. If He had changed or done away with the Sabbath day (having nailed it to the cross), wouldn't His own mother have known it? She was a follower of the Messiah; Mary was certainly a Christian despite her ethnicity, just as Christians all over the world are.



Argument #3:
"God doesn't care what day we observe.¨
o Isa 56:13&14 "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbatha delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."
- "THE¨ is defined as "an absolute, genuine article¨. The verse doesn't say "a" Sabbath day - it clearly says "the" Sabbath day; it's very specific.
o Exodus 20:8-11, 31:13-17, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."
- Once God blesses, hallows, and sanctifies something it is that way forever. God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6) nor does His law (Luke 16:17) nor does His Sabbath, nor does His baptism for that matter.(Ephesians 4:5) This verse also specifies a particular definite day; the seventh day, which we call Saturday. It starts at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday according to OT reckoning.
o Any time one looks up the Sabbath in the Bible it is always described it as being on the seventh day. (Whenever a description is given, that is.) Never is the first day (Sunday) mentioned in this regard.
o God is very specific on things - He leaves little to be open to interpretation. Examples would include the exact measurements He gave Noah for the building of the ark (Gen 6:15), the Ark of the Covenant and the earthly sanctuary (Exodus 25:10 thru 36:21), precisely what to do with the lambwhen Passover was established (Exodus 12:8), etc. Do you think the wall of Jericho would have toppled if the children of Israel would have marched around it only 6 times, or did it take the full 7 before the blessing was received? Did a certain someone have to wash in the Jordan river once, or twice, or the full 7 times before his blessing of healing come? God is concerned with details; He’s a God of precision; and He says what He means. He said “the” seventh day. I think He does care what day we observe.




Argument #4:
”The apostles broke bread on the first day of the week”.

Acts 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week (yup, that's Sunday), when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."
o The disciples broke bread every day (see Acts 2:46) - that is not a reason for observing a different day of worship anyway and only shows lack of Biblical scholarship of someone using this argument. Furthermore, the term "breaking bread" here does not mean communion; otherwise the disciples were taking communion every single day. Does Acts 20:7 say that breaking bread constitutes a change to God’s day of rest? Nope.
o Something that most miss is that if you read the story further you'll find that Paul starts out on Sunday morning for his trip; he travels about 30 km and then buys a boat ticket! Now, if Sunday had been any kind of holy day then Paul would not have been traveling nor purchasing anything on that day.

Hobie
Mar 15th 2010, 02:50 AM
Argument #5:

Many cite the following Colossians 2:14-16:
Col 2:14-16 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:"
o This verse is referring to the Mosaic Law (some say Sinaic Law or Levitical Law, some say ceremonial law) and this is evident by the inclusion of the "new moon" phrase as well as reference to the meat and drink offerings that would take place (compare to Leviticus 23:37). There are two sets of laws in play here, two types of sabbaths; one was described as being grievous to us (Col.2:14-16), and the 10 Commandments which were not grievous to us (1 John 5:3). How can the same law be grievous and not grievous at the same time? It cannot; clearly there are two sets of laws. Additionally, there isn't a single "ordinance" in the 10 Commandments. See definition of "ordinance" in any dictionary - it discusses festival regulations and the like.
I. DEUT. 31:26 Take this book of the law (Moses' Law), and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee

By comparison Moses' Law was written in a book on paper; God's Law was written with His finger on stone - don't let the symbology there escape you either. Also, the Commandments were put “inside” the ark (Exodus 40:20) not “in the side” (Deut 31:26) of it.
II. Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth (limited to) a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

(I’ll touch upon this verse again later in this essay for it is a biggie.)

III. Leviticus 23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: 38 Beside(in addition to) the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.


Notice the verse in Leviticus 23:37; the word “beside” means in addition to, these feasts were the sabbaths that were in addition to the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. It is these sabbaths, not the weekly seventh-day Sabbath, that Col 2:14 is talking about – this is verified when one looks at the descriptors of “meat” and “drink” which are in reference to the offerings that would take place under Mosaic Ceremonial Law. So, again we see that the seventh-day Sabbath was different than these ceremonial sabbaths and it was the ceremonial sabbaths that were done away with according to Col. 2-14.

Argument #6:
"Jesus is my rest."
o Jesus is not a "day" nor is He ever symbolically/metaphorically linked to being a “day” in the Bible; He's linked to being "the vine", "the lamb", "the door", "the rock" and many other things but never, not once, a "day". We must stick to the Bible and the Bible only.
o To "rest in Jesus" actually has three meanings; 1) to rest on the Sabbath day (Heb 4:4&9) or 2) to be one of the righteous dead (1 Thess. 4:14) for you are literally resting in Jesus' love and protection. Matthew 11:28 - Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Jesus can absolutely give us 3) spiritual rest, but we cannot "cease from all work" seven days a week. To do so is not holy, it's lazy.

Argument #7:
"Unlike the other 9 commandments, Christ doesn’t repeat the Sabbath commandment in the New Testament. As such, we don’t have to observe it.”

o Do people who say this also look at Hebrews 4:1-11? (*see verse below in Argument #11 or click here for an in-depth study (http://www.christianforums.com/t1968191-in-depth-heb-4-study.html).) The Sabbath commandment is most certainly repeated in the NT both in word as well as example.

o According to the following verse I’d say that Christ had every intention that His Sabbath would still be observed after His death:

Matthew 24:20 - But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The context of this verse is that Christ was warning the disciples about the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred in 70 AD at the hands of the Roman army. Christ prophesied that this event would happen and it did (Christ is never wrong). Why would Christ be concerned that people observe the Sabbath day at a time that would have been about 40 years after His death if His death was supposed to abolish it? Simple, He wouldn’t be concerned if that were the case – but since the Sabbath, like all His Commandments last forever, He was very concerned and told them to pray concerning it.

o Also, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it the “Sabbath day” in Acts 13:14. Aren’t the words of the Holy Spirit good enough since the Holy Spirit is the one who now convicts us of our sin?

o Mary, Christ’s mother, observed the Sabbath “according to the commandment” after Christ’s death. (See Luke 23:56) And I don't think anyone would argue that Mary was most certainly Christian.

o In the great Christian council, A.D. 49, in the presence of the apostles and thousands of disciples, James calls it the "sabbath day." (Acts 15:21) Notice, that in all these verses, and many more, Sabbath isn’t referred to as “a” Sabbath, but instead “the” Sabbath day. There is only one weekly Sabbath day and that falls from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday.

Argument #8:
"The Holy Spirit descended on the people on the day of Pentecost; and that was a Sunday, so we observe Sunday as Sabbath."
o The Holy Spirit descended on people at other times in the Bible yet that has never constituted a change to God's Sabbath; why would it this time? The Bible never mentions a change to God’s holy day at all in connection with Pentecost. This argument is totally inconsistent with scripture and is the result of improper exegesis, hermeneutics, and apologetics. There is no place in the Bible that says "when Pentecost comes the Sabbath day will be changed to that day" nor is it even inferred.

Argument #9:
"Sunday is the Lord's Day - I observe the Lord's Day."
o "The Lord's Day" is only found in one place in the Bible, Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
John was the writer of the book of Revelation, that's why he is known as "John the Revelator". John was a Jew. As such, he knew and followed the seventh-day Sabbath. So, for him to use the phrase "The Lord's Day" would mean, if anything regarding a day of the week, Saturday (from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown to be exact)!
o Also, I recommend reading all of Revelation 1; not one time does it say what day the "Lord's Day" is. To assume it was a Sunday is wild speculation at best; sorry but there isn't any other way to say it. The truth is the "Lord's Day" or "Day of the Lord" has always referred to the day that Christ returns - His second advent. Any lexicon, unbiased concordance, Biblical scholar, or theologian will tell you that.

Argument #10:
"We observe Sunday in honor of the Resurrection."
o I am in no way belittling Christ resurrecting from death, but where is the scriptural authority to change God's holy day in honor of the resurrection? There isn't any scriptural authority for the change.
o How did Jesus tell us to honor His resurrection? With baptism! (Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12) So why disregard Christ's instructions or add to them? We have no authority to do such. Jesus' words are the truth - and we all know what happens when you add or take away from the truth (Revelation 22:19).
o Also, Christ specifically told us to take communion in remembrance of Him. (Luke 22:19) He never once said "change My Father's holy day".
o If Sunday observance is to commemorate Christ's resurrection then what is Easter for again? Which is it; Sunday observance or Easter that commemorates Christ’s resurrection? We cannot just make it up as we go along folks; the Bible is our guide.
o I challenge any good Christian to find scripture that says the redemption of our sin is in the resurrection. The Bible always refers to redemption being by, in, or through the BLOOD of Christ. (1 John 1:7 is one of my favorite verses). I will never overlook the importance of Christ rising from the dead, for that shows us that through Christ we will be resurrected as well, but let us be careful that we never overlook the fact that He died for us on a Friday, for that is the reason we even have a chance of salvation.

Hobie
Mar 15th 2010, 02:51 AM
Argument #11:
"Hebrews 4:1-9 says that we should rest as He (Christ) is now, that He died for our sins and that Sabbath is basically suspended until we are on the new earth.“

But they don’t look at the entire statement being made. Let’s look at Hebrews 4:1-11 (if you want to see my in-depth study on Heb 4 click here):

If I may point out, in particular, Heb 4 verse 9 and cite from some other Bible versions:
WYC Therefore the sabbath is left to the people of God.
BBE So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
ASVThere remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
DBY There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.
ESV So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
NJBThere must still be, therefore, a seventh-day rest reserved for God's people,
NRSSo then, a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God;
NIRV So there is still a Sabbath rest for God's people.
NIVUK There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
NIV There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
HCSB A Sabbath rest remains, therefore, for God's people.
NET Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.
MRD Therefore it is established, that the people of God are to have a sabbath.
GRT Hebrews 4:9 ara apoleipetai sabbatismos tô laô tou theou

apoleipetai means literally 'left behind' and sabbatismos in Greek literature always, 100% of the time, refers to seventh day sabbath-keeping; but let’s verify that using our lexicons to be sure:

BDAG #6544 σαββατισμός
• σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σαββατίζω; Plut., Mor. 166a cj.; Just., D. 23, 3) sabbath rest, sabbath observance fig. Hb 4:9(CBarrett, CHDodd Festschr. ’56, 371f [eschat.]). —S. on κατάπαυσις HWeiss, CBQ 58, ’96, 674-89. M-M. TW.

Louw-Nida #6544 σαββατισμός
• σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σαββατίζω; Plut., Mor. 166a cj.; Just., D. 23, 3) sabbath rest, sabbath observance fig. Hb 4:9(CBarrett, CHDodd Festschr. ’56, 371f [eschat.]). —S. on κατάπαυσις HWeiss, CBQ 58, ’96, 674-89. M-M. TW.

Liddell-Scott #36978 Σαββατισμός, σαββατισμός Σαββα±τισμός, ὁ,
a keeping of days of rest, N.T.

Thayer’s Lexicon #4520
1) a keeping [continuing/enduring] Sabbath

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament; Arndt and Gingrich
sabbatismoV, pronounced sabbatismos, form: noun
1) Sabbath rest, Sabbath observance

Strong’s Lexicon #4520 σαββατισμός
1) a keeping [continuing] sabbath
*2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians

*Quick note about the Strong’s Lexicon:
A lexicon’s purpose it is to give the reader the plain meaning of words so that the reader can interpret passages for himself. It is outside of the scope of any proper lexicon to try and give the reader its own interpretation of any given word. As such, I find it improper for the Strong’s Lexicon, in light of all the other respected lexicon’s definitions of sabbatismos, to try and give a second definition that is actually an interpretation rather than a definition. Logic dictates that since sabbatismos is only used once in the entire Bible there should only be one definition.

As stated above, the Bible only has one instance of the word sabbatismos, what this further means is that, unlike most other words in the scriptures, one cannot do a verse-to-verse comparison in order to arrive at its definition. One MUST, in this particular situation, look to other Greek documents that use this word. This is the only way to get an accurate definition. Strangely, sabbatismos is only found in the following ancient Greek texts, most of which are penned by pagan authors:
Plutarch, “De Superstitions 3 (Moralia 1660)
Justin Martyr,”Dialogue With Trypho” 23,3
Epiphanius, “Adversus Haereses” 30,2,2
“Apostolic Constitutions” 2,36
Martyrdom of Peter and Paul
Sabbatismos means “seventh-day Sabbath keeping”. The verb form of the word is sabbatizw sabbatizo, which means “to keep the Sabbath” (Arndt and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament). The Greek English Lexicon of the Septuagint defines sabbatizw sabbatizo as “to keep sabbath, to rest” (Lust, Eynikel, Hauspie).

GRT Hebrews 4:9 ara apoleipetai sabbatismos tô laô tou theou


Apoleipetai means literally 'left behind' and sabbatismos in Greek literature is always, 100% of the time, referring to “seventh day sabbath-keeping”. This further undermines the argument that the Commandments were done away with at the cross but that 9 of the 10 were reinstated. This argument holds no argument when the rules of hermeneutics are applied.

Scripture points out that God established the Sabbath at creation, Jesus observed it the disciples observed it, all the prophets kept it, and according to Isa 66:22-23 we will be observing it in the new earth! Now, logic dictates that we should be observing it now. Let's see those verses in Isaiah:
Isa. 66:22-23 - For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Verse 11 talks about "laboring into that rest". Any Sabbatarian will tell you this is referring to preparation day (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, Matthew 27:62), the day before Sabbath in which all remaining work needs to be finished so that Sabbath can be focused upon Christ.


Argument #12:
"The Sabbath day has been lost to history due to calendar changes.”

This is incorrect and two small observations show this to be in error.

o First, such an argument makes the gross assumption that at some point in time every Jewish person in the world (all of which keep the seventh-day Sabbath) magically forgot what day Sabbath is on. This assumption flies in the face of common reason. And, just to play devil’s advocate, if this did in fact happen (world-wide Sabbath amnesia) the Jews would still have their documentation to remind them. The Jews have always been meticulous in their record-keeping and thus would have plenty of written information at hand that would set them back on the correct day of the Sabbath.

o Usually a second argument is that of the calendar changes from the Julian (which was in use at the time of Christ) to the Gregorian calendar that we use today some days were lost. But what they fail to realize is that if the calendar changes altered which day the seventh-day is from the time of Christ, then that change would also affect the first-day of the week as well, which would mean that those that observe Sunday due to Pentecost or the resurrection of Christ are also observing an incorrect day. The calendar changes did not affect the weekly cycle at all.

losthorizon
Mar 15th 2010, 02:52 AM
Since the sabbath wasn't commanded, as you say, then can you explain to us why all the apostles including Paul, and the Gentile Christians all observed the sabbath?

Christians did not observe the Sabbath as a matter of law and never have because they were never commanded to do such. Under the law of Moses the Jews were commanded to keep that day as a matter of law under the penalty of death if they refused. Big difference wouldn’t you say?
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. ~ Exodus 35:2
The Christian faith is not about day-keeping.
You keep saying this, and I'm thinking now perhaps you view the keeping of ANY day holy to somehow be wrong.So I'll ask, if one wants to keep a day holy, be it Saturday, Sunday, or some other day, do you see a problem with that?

Under the law of Christ we have freedom to view all days as holy just as we are encouraged to worship God in spirit and truth daily. From the beginning of the Christian era disciples of Christ have assembled on the Lords’ Day (first day of the week) to celebrate the Lord’s resurrection…Do This In Remembrance Of Me…

losthorizon
Mar 15th 2010, 02:57 AM
Argument #11:
"Hebrews 4:1-9 says that we should rest as He (Christ) is now, that He died for our sins and that Sabbath is basically suspended until we are on the new earth.“

<snip>

The calendar changes did not affect the weekly cycle at all.


<yawn>

Do you actually defend your non-biblical position or do you just post SDA rhetoric?

Hobie
Mar 15th 2010, 10:52 AM
Christians did not observe the Sabbath as a matter of law and never have because they were never commanded to do such. Under the law of Moses the Jews were commanded to keep that day as a matter of law under the penalty of death if they refused. Big difference wouldn’t you say?

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. ~ Exodus 35:2
Under the law of Christ we have freedom to view all days as holy just as we are encouraged to worship God in spirit and truth daily. From the beginning of the Christian era disciples of Christ have assembled on the Lords’ Day (first day of the week) to celebrate the Lord’s resurrection…Do This In Remembrance Of Me…
So why does Christ say to keep them, and does exactly that including the Sabbath?

Matthew 19:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19:17&version=KJV)
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

HisLeast
Mar 15th 2010, 01:08 PM
Why is sabbath always about the day you keep it and not the myriad of other sabbath laws?

Vhayes
Mar 15th 2010, 01:13 PM
So why does Christ say to keep them, and does exactly that including the Sabbath?

Matthew 19:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19:17&version=KJV)
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Because He was the Jewish Messiah. Did He travel beyond Israel? What did He tell His disciples on their first mission and how did it differ from the Great Commsiion? Why did He tell the woman who asked for healing that the gift was for the children and not the "dogs"?

To the Jew first.

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 05:31 PM
You put more trust in man (Palehorse) than in the word of God. Palehorse said:

<<Argument #1:
"The Sabbath was for the Jews.¨
o It is not a Jewish institution, for it was made about 2,300 years before Jews existed, right at creation.Genesis 2:2-3. To say the Sabbath is just for Jews is to say that marriage is just for the Jews as well since both the Sabbath and marriage were given to Adam and Eve in the beginning.
o The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God" or "my Sabbath¨ (meaning it is God's Sabbath).
o Mark 2:27 - And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:
(Made for who? MAN! That is a silly way to spell Jew or Israelite.) “Man” here means mankind.
o God has pronounced a special blessing on all the Gentiles who will keep it.Isaiah 56:6,7>>

The word of God says:

Ex 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

That is also repeated twice in Exo 20:12,20. The word of God further states in Neh 9:13-14 that the commandment of the Sabbath, as recorded in the Torah, was given to mankind in Exo 16, through Moses. Hebrews chapters 3 and 4 repeats the same message, that the commandment of the seventh day was first preached (first time ever, Heb 4:6) to Israel in the desert.

Who follows traditions of a men (Palehorse) and who follows the word of God?

Shalom

HisLeast
Mar 15th 2010, 05:32 PM
What is Sabbath?

Vhayes
Mar 15th 2010, 05:45 PM
What is Sabbath?
Rest.

As in resting in the finished work of Christ.

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 05:46 PM
<<Argument #2:
"That was the old covenant - Jesus did away with the Sabbath and all the other ceremonial laws.”
o When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life.Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.¨ Thus Jesus followed His Father's example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?
o The Ten Commandments were not part of Moses’ ceremonial law as Exodus 19, 20, and 31 clearly show. Also, there are many Bible references that show there was a distinguishment made between the Commandments and that of Moses’ book of the law.
o Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, Jesus carefully taught how it should be observed.Matthew 12:1-13
o Jesus is also known as the Lord of the Sabbath.Matthew 12:8. Why be Lord of something you were going to abolish?
o Christ instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection.Matthew 24:20. When one reads all of Matt 24 they’ll see that Jesus was warning the disciples of the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem – which occurred about 40 years after His resurrection. Are we to believe that Christ didn’t know when this siege would take place?
o Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it "the Sabbath day." Acts 13:14-16.Sounds like the Sabbath was still in effect even then, well after Christ's death.
o The New Testament alone mentions the Sabbath day no less than 84 times - sounds like God is trying to tell us something. And never once is there a change of the Sabbath day to any other nor was it abolished.
o Luke 23:56 - And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Jesus' own mother observed the Sabbath AFTER Jesus died. If He had changed or done away with the Sabbath day (having nailed it to the cross), wouldn't His own mother have known it? She was a follower of the Messiah; Mary was certainly a Christian despite her ethnicity, just as Christians all over the world are.>>

This is God talking.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. Sunday was made after the resurrection power of endless life.

Read also 2 Cor 3:1-18. The big 10 are done away, abolished, they are history!

The word Sabbath shows up 42 times in the gospels, 33 times is showing Jesus WORKING !!!!! on Sabbath days. The opposite of rest is WORK ! The Holy Spirit himself tells us Jesus broke the REST, HE BROKE THE Sabbath in John 5:17-18.

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Both Jesus and God the Father WORK on Saturdays !!!!!! How's that for doing away with the law of REST (Sabbath) ?

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
12 Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Jesus broke the Sabbath (John 5:17). But it was not a sin because there are exceptions to the rule. Sometimes it is ok to break a law (doing that which is unlawful) in order to fulfil the spirit of the law. It is written:

MaT 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

SHALOM

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 06:15 PM
<<Argument #3:
"God doesn't care what day we observe.¨
o Isa 56:13&14 "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbatha delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."
- "THE¨ is defined as "an absolute, genuine article¨. The verse doesn't say "a" Sabbath day - it clearly says "the" Sabbath day; it's very specific.
o Exodus 20:8-11, 31:13-17, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."
- Once God blesses, hallows, and sanctifies something it is that way forever. God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6) nor does His law (Luke 16:17) nor does His Sabbath, nor does His baptism for that matter.(Ephesians 4:5) This verse also specifies a particular definite day; the seventh day, which we call Saturday. It starts at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday according to OT reckoning.
o Any time one looks up the Sabbath in the Bible it is always described it as being on the seventh day. (Whenever a description is given, that is.) Never is the first day (Sunday) mentioned in this regard.
o God is very specific on things - He leaves little to be open to interpretation. Examples would include the exact measurements He gave Noah for the building of the ark (Gen 6:15), the Ark of the Covenant and the earthly sanctuary (Exodus 25:10 thru 36:21), precisely what to do with the lambwhen Passover was established (Exodus 12:8), etc. Do you think the wall of Jericho would have toppled if the children of Israel would have marched around it only 6 times, or did it take the full 7 before the blessing was received? Did a certain someone have to wash in the Jordan river once, or twice, or the full 7 times before his blessing of healing come? God is concerned with details; He’s a God of precision; and He says what He means. He said “the” seventh day. I think He does care what day we observe.>>

Did you notice that all the Scriptures that you are using to justify that God cares for the Sabbath are all in the Old Testament? Here is what the NT says:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. ...

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (The 10 com, as stated in 2Cor 3:1-18)
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

After the resurrection, in the book of Acts, we see Paul going to the synagogue on Sabbath days because he was trying to reach the Jews for these three reasons:
a) God commanded to go to the Jews first (Rom 1:16, Acts 1:8; Mat 10:5-6)
b) Paul had a great burden for Israel, that they may be saved (Rom 10:1). Once Paul decided to stop preaching to the Jews (and that happened in Acts 18:6), then we do not see the word Sabbath again in the NT except for Col 2:16-17. Actually, immediately after that (Acts 18:6), we see Paul preaching on Sunday (Acts 20:7) and the only time the word Sabbath appears after Acts 18 is in Col 2:14-17 where it says it a shadow of things to come.
c) Paul said that when he preached to the Jews he behaved like a Jew in order to gain them to Christ (1Cor 9:20). And these are the reasons why he did it. It should not be interpreted that his behavior means God is telling the church to behave like Paul when he was preaching to the Jews.

No wonder there is no communication... we are using two different Testaments.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 06:24 PM
I had to jump to this one right away....

<<Argument #10:
"We observe Sunday in honor of the Resurrection."
o I am in no way belittling Christ resurrecting from death, but where is the scriptural authority to change God's holy day in honor of the resurrection? There isn't any scriptural authority for the change.
o How did Jesus tell us to honor His resurrection? With baptism! (Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12) So why disregard Christ's instructions or add to them? We have no authority to do such. Jesus' words are the truth - and we all know what happens when you add or take away from the truth (Revelation 22:19).
o Also, Christ specifically told us to take communion in remembrance of Him. (Luke 22:19) He never once said "change My Father's holy day".
o If Sunday observance is to commemorate Christ's resurrection then what is Easter for again? Which is it; Sunday observance or Easter that commemorates Christ’s resurrection? We cannot just make it up as we go along folks; the Bible is our guide.
o I challenge any good Christian to find scripture that says the redemption of our sin is in the resurrection. The Bible always refers to redemption being by, in, or through the BLOOD of Christ. (1 John 1:7 is one of my favorite verses). I will never overlook the importance of Christ rising from the dead, for that shows us that through Christ we will be resurrected as well, but let us be careful that we never overlook the fact that He died for us on a Friday, for that is the reason we even have a chance of salvation. >>

The Sabbath was made for man, not for God. Man was not made for the Sabbath, man was made for God (Isa 43:7,21). Man was made to worship God. It is proper that if man has a day (God gave us a day for us to rest on, after we serve our earthly boss and neighbors), that God ought to have a day also as a free will offering from man to God. I prefer to serve God before I serve my boss, my family or my coworkers. I chose Sunday as the day of the Lord for in that day and hour Jesus arose from the dead and at that time:

-- Jesus was declared Son of God with power (Rom 1:4) that Sunday morning.
-- We were justified in His sight (Rom 4:25) that Sunday morning.
-- We are saved by believing what happened that wonderful Sunday morning (Rom 10:9)
-- Our faith was confirmed on that Sunday morning (1Co 15:14-18)
-- We were begotten of God on that Sunday morning (1Pe 1:3)
-- God conquered Satan on that Sunday morning (1Co 2:8)
-- That Sunday morning gave us hope of being resurrected.
-- Jesus conquered death on that day and hour (1Co 15:54).
-- That event changed coward people into bold martyrs for God.
-- That event separated Jesus from all the other religious leaders.
-- That event caused us to be dead to the law, free from the letter of the law, and made us righteous before God.
-- Sunday morning is not made after man.

The Sabbath, because it is for man, it is therefore made after the carnal commandment, Sunday on the other hand is made after the power of endless life. It is written:

HEB 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

GAL 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

-- The Lord’s resurrection on Sunday morning is the central point of Christianity (1Co 15:14,17). Sunday morning is far more important than the Sabbath. It is written:

1CO 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. ...
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

It is the right thing to do, … to lift Him up at the day and hour that He was lifted up from the earth and won for us all our victories. Everything in Christianity was accomplished on that day and hour. Why should it be a surprise to commemorate it? God commanded Israel to make a memorial of the victories He had won for them. No victory is greater and more worthy of remembering that the resurrection from the dead of our Lord and Savior, God Almighty Jesus Christ. On that Sunday morning He won all our victories.

Shalom

BroRog
Mar 15th 2010, 06:52 PM
As Bible students it's important that we pay attention to who spoke to who. I can't recall where Jesus actually commanded a Gentile to keep the Sabbath.

newinchrist4now
Mar 15th 2010, 07:24 PM
Why is sabbath always about the day you keep it and not the myriad of other sabbath laws?

Even more why do people fight the day tooth and nail.

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 10:42 PM
Even more why do people fight the day tooth and nail.

It is all an ego trip, rooted in pride. A trade mark of all cults is that they teach their followers that they are God's preferred people, that they are the ones that truly please God. It feeds their ego, especially the flesh since how well we keep the law talks about our boasting in the law (our own righteousness). They see themselves as the ones that truly please God based on a day. Christians do not boast in the law. Even when we keep it, it is a filthy rag.

To some, the mark of the beast, the one thing that will for sure send people to hell is Sunday worship. Many actually believe that the mark of the beast is Sunday worship.

And to them, their erroneous theology carry more value than the word of God and that is why there can not be any true communication. John 8:43.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 10:49 PM
<<Argument #4:
”The apostles broke bread on the first day of the week”.

Acts 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week (yup, that's Sunday), when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."
o The disciples broke bread every day (see Acts 2:46) - that is not a reason for observing a different day of worship anyway and only shows lack of Biblical scholarship of someone using this argument. Furthermore, the term "breaking bread" here does not mean communion; otherwise the disciples were taking communion every single day. Does Acts 20:7 say that breaking bread constitutes a change to God’s day of rest? Nope.
o Something that most miss is that if you read the story further you'll find that Paul starts out on Sunday morning for his trip; he travels about 30 km and then buys a boat ticket! Now, if Sunday had been any kind of holy day then Paul would not have been traveling nor purchasing anything on that day. >>

See how they nullify the word of God and make it null and void of no effect? That is through traditions of men (their rationale). The word tradition in Greek (paradosis) adds up to 666. It is satan's antidote to the word of God. Concerning your last statement... travelling on a Sunday... Who said that is forbidden? No sunday worshipper follows that! If you can not come up with a rationale against us, do not make one please. And concerning travelling on Sabbath days.... The Law forbids to leave the city on a Sabbath day (Exo 16:29; Num 35:5 and Acts 1:12) and yet in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul went out of a city on a Sabbath day (see Acts 16:13). The Jews were not allowed to travel away from their cities, and the cities were defined as 3,000 feet (=2,000 cubits) away from the city wall. The distance between the walls of the city Jerusalem and mount Olivet in Acts 1:12 is 2,000 cubits or 3,000 feet, or a Sabbath's day journey.

Shalom

newinchrist4now
Mar 15th 2010, 11:03 PM
What amazes me and always has is that this one small, not hard to keep commandment is so rebelled against so maligned yet no one peeps about the others. Compared to the other 9 this one is relatively easy, yet so much fighting has happened with the Christian community.

Christ said "For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished." yet we seemed to have made this pass away. There is so much justification being made not to keep the sabbath it is mind boggling. Either all the commandments are gone or they are not and according to Christ they are not, for He said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important commandment. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."

The question we need to ask ourselves is if we are loving God by modifying His rules. Sticky situation I'd say because I can understand both sides, yet which one is right. If we think about it could we say it's now alright to covet, is it now alright to have idols, for children to be disobedient, to murder, to commit adultery, to steal, to lie, to use God's name in vain? We would say no, yet it's wrong to keep the Sabbath now. This does not sound right does it?

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 11:03 PM
<<Argument #5: Many cite the following Colossians 2:14-16: Col 2:14-16 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:"

o This verse is referring to the Mosaic Law (some say Sinaic Law or Levitical Law, some say ceremonial law) and this is evident by the inclusion of the "new moon" phrase as well as reference to the meat and drink offerings that would take place (compare to Leviticus 23:37). There are two sets of laws in play here, two types of sabbaths; one was described as being grievous to us (Col.2:14-16), and the 10 Commandments which were not grievous to us (1 John 5:3). How can the same law be grievous and not grievous at the same time? It cannot; clearly there are two sets of laws. Additionally, there isn't a single "ordinance" in the 10 Commandments. See definition of "ordinance" in any dictionary - it discusses festival regulations and the like.
I. DEUT. 31:26 Take this book of the law (Moses' Law), and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. By comparison Moses' Law was written in a book on paper; God's Law was written with His finger on stone - don't let the symbology there escape you either. Also, the Commandments were put “inside” the ark (Exodus 40:20) not “in the side” (Deut 31:26) of it.

III. Leviticus 23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: 38 Beside(in addition to) the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Notice the verse in Leviticus 23:37; the word “beside” means in addition to, these feasts were the sabbaths that were in addition to the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. It is these sabbaths, not the weekly seventh-day Sabbath, that Col 2:14 is talking about – this is verified when one looks at the descriptors of “meat” and “drink” which are in reference to the offerings that would take place under Mosaic Ceremonial Law. So, again we see that the seventh-day Sabbath was different than these ceremonial sabbaths and it was the ceremonial sabbaths that were done away with according to Col. 2-14.>>

What part of 2Cor3 don't you understand? Is it the red or the blue part the one that you fail to see?

2Cor 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

WOW ! Excuse me, I have get up and praise the Lord for his goodness. GLORY TO JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. This is what the Bible says about the Lord's commandments and his law.

a. They bring God's wrath upon us (Rom 4:15)
b. They are our enemy (Eph 2:15)
c. They make sin strong in our life (Rom 7:8-11)
d. Cause us to sin (Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13,20; Rom 7:8; 1Jo 3:4)
e. Rule over us (Gal 3:24-25; Rom 7:1; Gal 4:9-11)
f. Bring death to us (Rom 7:10; 2Cor 3:6-7)
g. Curse us (Gal 3:10)
h. They are not of faith (Gal 3:12)
i. They are against us (Col 2:14)
j. They condemn us (2Co 3:9)
k. Can not justify us (Rom 3:20,28)
l. Doing the commandments do not and can not bring miracles (Gal 3:1-6; Mat 11:13; John 10:41)
m. And even the times we fulfill the law, that is unacceptable before God (Isa 64:6)

ISA 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; ...

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 11:10 PM
What amazes me and always has is that this one small, not hard to keep commandment is so rebelled against so maligned yet no one peeps about the others. Compared to the other 9 this one is relatively easy, yet so much fighting has happened with the Christian community.

Christ said "For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished." yet we seemed to have made this pass away. There is so much justification being made not to keep the sabbath it is mind boggling. Either all the commandments are gone or they are not and according to Christ they are not, for He said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important commandment. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."

The question we need to ask ourselves is if we are loving God by modifying His rules. Sticky situation I'd say because I can understand both sides, yet which one is right

Which ones are right? ... The one that is on Jesus' side. God the Father works on Sabbath days and so does the Son (John 5:17-18).

Do you pray before or after you eat? Because the Law of God states to pray AFTER you eat, not before (Deu 8:10). We pray before we eat for the same reason we worship God on the morning of the first day of the week, i.e., to put God first, even when the commandment states to put man first and God last. That is why we do it. Can someone please explain why was Jesus so pleased with the leper that turned back from obeying the commandment and at the same time Jesus was so disappointed at the 9 lepers that obeyed the commendment exactly the way they were told to do it? It has to do with putting God first, even before the commandment. Read it.

Luk 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Shalom

HisLeast
Mar 15th 2010, 11:37 PM
Even more why do people fight the day tooth and nail.

Right. If I were going to fight anything tooth and nail it would be returning any capital to its original owner on a jubilee year.

newinchrist4now
Mar 15th 2010, 11:40 PM
Which ones are right? ... The one that is on Jesus' side. God the Father works on Sabbath days and so does the Son (John 5:17-18).

Do you pray before or after you eat? Because the Law of God states to pray AFTER you eat, not before (Deu 8:10). We pray before we eat for the same reason we worship God on the morning of the first day of the week, i.e., to put God first, even when the commandment states to put man first and God last. That is why we do it. Can someone please explain why was Jesus so pleased with the leper that turned back from obeying the commandment and at the same time Jesus was so disappointed at the 9 lepers that obeyed the commendment exactly the way they were told to do it? It has to do with putting God first, even before the commandment. Read it.

Luk 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Shalom

But I was not talking about other parts was I? I don't think most can stay inside the ten commandments because then the justification for not following one breaks down so the argument tends becomes "do you do this or that" instead of really looking at the issue. I am not trying to be mean just making an observation that even I can fall into, So here is a question:

May I murder?

Vhayes
Mar 16th 2010, 12:08 AM
Right. If I were going to fight anything tooth and nail it would be returning any capital to its original owner on a jubilee year.
I'm with you on that one!

JLM Lives
Mar 16th 2010, 12:20 AM
Very intresting post. alot to think about. especially the historical references. well thought out and well written. Thank you.

I do have one question, Does it mean that EVERYONE that DOES NOT worship on the seventh day is eternally DAMNED?

Because if the answer is yes then MOVE OVER JESUS.

Not to offend, "The letter killith, but the Spirit givith life"
I worship My Lord everyday.. I thank him continually for myself and you.. Should I stop?

You see God is a God of individuals not of groups. We worship the way God chooses for us to worship. and it's not directed by man or man's doctrine. "My sheep hear my voice a stranger they will not follow" it is by Grace that we are saved and by Faith that we are approved. sure we study and encourage each other to hold on in this world. but as brothers and sisters in christ we are confidant in our Lords promises. The Lord be with you all

newinchrist4now
Mar 16th 2010, 12:45 AM
Very intresting post. alot to think about. especially the historical references. well thought out and well written. Thank you.

I do have one question, Does it mean that EVERYONE that DOES NOT worship on the seventh day is eternally DAMNED?



Of course it wouldn't mean that and at the same time God did not just doodle His commandments as a suggestion and even Christ summarized them in the Gospels. Christ says "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." so while we are not damned we are instructed to keep them if we love them. I don't think most of them are hard to keep at all with the HS help, I think we just hate rules as humans and since this seems a small one we have come up with ways to break it with justification. Of course these are my thoughts and next Sunday I'll be in Church like most :)

BroRog
Mar 16th 2010, 01:34 AM
But I was not talking about other parts was I? I don't think most can stay inside the ten commandments because then the justification for not following one breaks down so the argument tends becomes "do you do this or that" instead of really looking at the issue. I am not trying to be mean just making an observation that even I can fall into, So here is a question:

May I murder?Would you murder if there wasn't a commandment against it?

JLM Lives
Mar 16th 2010, 01:36 AM
True. I agree, God didn't doodle LOL

newinchrist4now
Mar 16th 2010, 01:40 AM
Would you murder if there wasn't a commandment against it?

There's a commandment for the Sabbath should that be ignored? If we can ignore #4 (depending on how one numbers) then we could ignore others, after all we are not under the law

BroRog
Mar 16th 2010, 01:43 AM
There's a commandment for the Sabbath should that be ignored? If we can ignore #4 (depending on how one numbers) then we could ignore others, after all we are not under the lawSure, there are lots of commandments in the Bible. Which ones were given to Gentiles?

BruceG
Mar 16th 2010, 01:44 AM
We cannot trust the traditions of men on the Sabbath vs. Sunday issue, for this is not safe, nor in just mere human opinions. Instead we need to know what scripture actually says, and above all, what Jesus Christ Himself taught, so we accept His pure teaching as our final authority.

Jesus Christ is “Lord even of the Sabbath day” as the Creator. Jesus said,“For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. By identifying Himself as “Lord even of the Sabbath day,” Jesus of was showing that He was the One who originally created Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day. And the New Testament makes clear that Jesus is the Creator...

"All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that has been made." John 1:3
"He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not". John 1:10
"God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." Eph. 3:9
"For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Col. 1:16

So scripture makes clear Jesus Christ is our Creator and also gave us the Sabbath for man not just the Jews.
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"Mark 2:27

Not only did Jesus create the Sabbath but He makes clear it was the seventh day and Holy...
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:11

"And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning." Exodus 16:23


Now you can check the scriptures and it will make clear the Sabbath is on Saturday, while Sunday is "the first day of the week" (Mat. 28:1; Mark 16:1, 2, etc). Jesus Christ regularly kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16), taught much about the Sabbath (Mat. 12:12; 24:20), and clearly stated that He is "Lord even of the Sabbath day" (Mat. 12:8). Jesus Christ never mentioned "the first day of the week" even one time. He taught nothing about it. The Sabbath continues after the cross (Luke 23:54-56) and was kept in the book of Acts by both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 13:42-44; 16:13).
There is no biblical authorization for the change of the Bible Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

God made the Sabbath at the beginning of the world (Gen. 2:1-3) before any Jews existed, to be a blessing to all people. Most importantly, it is a special sign that Jesus Christ is the true Creator of heaven and earth ( John 1:1-3, 10; Col. 1:16; Ex. 20:11; Ezekiel 20:12).

When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.¨ Thus Jesus followed His Father's example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?

Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath:

Mark 2:27
(27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Note: The Sabbath was made “for man” and when the Sabbath first came into the picture (Genesis 2:1-3) the only man alive then was Adam and his wife Eve. Therefore, the Sabbath was made for them, and for their offspring.

The understanding of the Law was given to man way before Moses as scripture makes clear...

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Genesis 26:5


The Ten Commandments were not part of Moses’ ceremonial law as Exodus 19, 20, and 31 clearly show. Also, there are many Bible references that show there was a distinguishment made between the Commandments and that of Moses’ book of the law.

Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, Jesus carefully taught how it should be observed.Matthew 12:1-13

Jesus is also known as the Lord of the Sabbath.Matthew 12:8. Why be Lord of something you were going to abolish?

Christ instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection.Matthew 24:20. When one reads all of Matt 24 they’ll see that Jesus was warning the disciples of the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem – which occurred about 40 years after His resurrection. Are we to believe that Christ didn’t know when this siege would take place?

Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it "the Sabbath day." Acts 13:14-16.Sounds like the Sabbath was still in effect even then, well after Christ's death.

The New Testament alone mentions the Sabbath day no less than 84 times - sounds like God is trying to tell us something. And never once is there a change of the Sabbath day to any other nor was it abolished.

Luke 23:56 - And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Jesus' own mother observed the Sabbath AFTER Jesus died. If He had changed or done away with the Sabbath day (having nailed it to the cross), wouldn't His own mother have known it? She was a follower of the Messiah; Mary was certainly would have known of any changes as she was at the cross. Now lets see what Jesus did:

Luke 4:16
(16) And he came to Nazareth, where he [Jesus Christ] had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Jesus Christ said to keep the commandments:
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17

Jesus never said that the Sabbath would change even after His death:
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.

Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D.(40 years after the Cross).

He kept the seventh day as the Sabbath from Creation and in His life on earth, and Christ is our example, and He says if we love HIM to keep HIS Commandments.

So, when was the Sabbath made? It was made at Creation. By the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on the seventh day He rested from all His work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He rested from all the work of creating that He had done.

The fourth commandment tells the same story:

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy ...... for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but He rested on the seventh day. Therefore,(for that reason) the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Now lets see a important day in our life like the day we were born, what would you think of someone suggesting that you change your birthday to the following day or a few after, or perhaps to the day before? Is that your birthday, the day you were born, No of course not.

The same is true of the day the fourth commandment specifies as the day God made Holy, a day of rest for man. To be truly a cellebration of Creation, it has to be the seventh day of the week rather than the first or the fifth. Did God make a mistake in the day and made Sunday Holy and forgot to tell us? No, and neither can man change what God has created and it was the seventh day that God made holy.

The Sabbath is a special day to focus on Jesus Christ our Maker: Jesus is “the Lord” who made the world in six days, and “rested on the seventh day.” Thus the Sabbath is a special day to focus on the Jesus Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of all life. It is a day to come apart from the normal stresses and cares of everyday living, to be refreshed and blessed by the great Creator who loves and died for us.

We are to work at our normal jobs during the six working days, but from sundown Friday night until sundown Saturday night, we should rest from our work. Late Friday afternoon, after Jesus died, "the Sabbath drew on." Luke 23:54. When the sun went down, Christ's followers "rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56.

Secular business should be laid aside. Shopping, laundry, homework, and housecleaning should be done during the six working days, and laid aside on the Sabbath so we can rest from our labors and be free to focus on our Creator Jesus Christ and share our love and worship Him.

Careful what you wish for. I was reading the account of the giving of the 10 commandments and shortly thereafter, a man was brought to Moses by the people who was found gathering sticks for a fire to cook his meal on the Sabbath. They did not know what to do with him as the commandments were new. Moses sought the Lord and here is the jist of what God told Moses.

"Have the people take him and and stone him to death."

Sometimes we are such a foolish people. We want to encourage people to keep the law that no one could keep. We want people to serve under a system that required 100% obedience to it on penalty of death. We want to serve under a system where lust is the sameas adultery and hatred murder. We want to serve under a system that will make one cry out "O wretched man that I am." Let me ask you, if we are to be back under the law, we cannot pick and choose what we obey and what we can't, nor can we thing if we are under law that the penalties do not go with the territory. They must, for they are an integral part of the law of commandments. Is this what you want?

Jesus talked to the Pharisees who were outwardly clean but inwardly were dead men. They obeyed all the written commandments or came darned close. But Jesus said this. If they lusted, they had already committed adultery.If they had been angry without cause...murderers. This is the full weight of the law.

What then was its purpose? It was NOT sent to us to teach us how to live as is commonly taught. It is given to us to act as our schoolmaster to leave us a broekn pile of goo at the feet of Jesus Christ, begging for mercy. The law did indeed give nice results of a life of love, but it offered no power to obey...none. It was sent to make sin in us, our old nature, our flesh, exceedingly sinful, to teach us that at our best, our most diligent, we cannot obey as He desires...with a pure heart loving both God and man. There is a better way.... the new covenant.

The law was done away with under the new covenant. Paul said some esteem one day above another, and others esteem all days the same. Some thing it a sin to eat meat offered to idols, and others see no harm in it. Let each be convinced in theor own eyes. We walk in liberty, liberty to finally love because of the indwelling spirit of God.

But remember this. Paul wrote to the Galatians who were being influenced by Judaizers, Christian Jews from the "mother" church in Jerusalem, trying to get them back partially under the law of Moses, beginning with circumcision. Paul said this to the Galatians... "if you submit to the law in ONE point, you are fully back under the law of commanments that no one could keep, that set no one free, and Christ will profit you nothing. You are fallen from grace."

We are no longer slaves to rules. We have been set free. Where there is no law, there is no sin. BUT, Paul also warns, "Use not your liberty as an occasion for the flesh, but by love, serve one another." THIS, and this alone is the new covenant, God IN us, casusing us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, where we are not judged any more as to our abilities to obey rules, but by His ability to rule us and cause us to obey as He promised He would.

Blessings, Bruce

JLM Lives
Mar 16th 2010, 01:46 AM
An important point I may add. We are sons and daughters. Not scribes and pharasees. why strain at a gnat and swallow a camel? The Holy Spirit is here to guide us. If we allow Jesus to do so.

BruceG
Mar 16th 2010, 01:47 AM
There's a commandment for the Sabbath should that be ignored? If we can ignore #4 (depending on how one numbers) then we could ignore others, after all we are not under the law
If you read how that sabbath rule works, you may not like it much. No work.No grilling out. No cooking. No travel. We cannot pick and choose what parts we like and think apply and what ones we don't. It is all or nothing so be darned sure you are ready to pay the consequenses.
By the way, if the law still is over us, if you have lusted, you have committed adultery and need to be stoned. It was a HARD taskmaster.
Bruce

newinchrist4now
Mar 16th 2010, 01:50 AM
Sure, there are lots of commandments in the Bible. Which ones were given to Gentiles?

The ten commandments apply to all. Christ did say if you love Him you would keep his commandments

JLM Lives
Mar 16th 2010, 01:52 AM
Amen and Amen bruce

newinchrist4now
Mar 16th 2010, 01:54 AM
If you read how that sabbath rule works, you may not like it much. No work.No grilling out. No cooking. No travel. We cannot pick and choose what parts we like and think apply and what ones we don't. It is all or nothing so be darned sure you are ready to pay the consequenses.
By the way, if the law still is over us, if you have lusted, you have committed adultery and need to be stoned. It was a HARD taskmaster.
Bruce

I am still content to dwell on it in the intellectual realm :) On a practical level Christ never said not to follow His command, nor in the Ten Commandments is it given how we should do things. Note I am only speaking of the Ten not the myrid of rules latched on by the Jewish law people.

So while we are not under the condemnation of the law I see no where Christ said to stop following, nor by the same token how to accomplish keeping them so following that we could see Sunday, Tuesday, etc as Sabbath and still be keeping it. I can see both sides of the argument and following the Ten Commandments is the not the same as being under them though many want to equate that.

BroRog
Mar 16th 2010, 02:15 AM
The ten commandments apply to all.Where does the Bible say that the ten commandments apply to all?


Christ did say if you love Him you would keep his commandmentsDid he mean to say that Gentiles should live like Jews?

newinchrist4now
Mar 16th 2010, 02:24 AM
Where does the Bible say that the ten commandments apply to all?

Did he mean to say that Gentiles should live like Jews?

Chirst said and I quote "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." asuch as we don't like rules Christ says if we love Him we will follow His rules. Not out a sense of "DO THIS NOW, grr" but because we love him

Vhayes
Mar 16th 2010, 04:00 AM
Two points.

1. If you love God with all your heart and mind, you will not put ANYTHING else before Him. You will dwell on Him and His goodness and mercy as well as IN Him through the finished work of Jesus. That's the Sabbath rest.

If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not covet what he has, you will be happy for him and rejoice with him when God provides for his needs. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not steal from him or bear false witness about him or lust after her or murder her.

All the 10 are in the two.

And finally, point 2:
I John 3
23 - This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

BroRog
Mar 16th 2010, 05:01 AM
Chirst said and I quote "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." asuch as we don't like rules Christ says if we love Him we will follow His rules. Not out a sense of "DO THIS NOW, grr" but because we love himYou really didn't address my questions directly.

Firstfruits
Mar 16th 2010, 10:53 AM
The ten commandments apply to all. Christ did say if you love Him you would keep his commandments

So do you agree then that what ever God has commanded cannot be altered unles God himself alters it?

Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Ex 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Has Gods commandment changed?

Firstfruits

BruceG
Mar 16th 2010, 12:09 PM
The ten commandments apply to all. Christ did say if you love Him you would keep his commandments
The question is...will we simply accept the word of God as true? Or are we determined to wrestle with it to our own destruction?

"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
Galatians 4:23-30

How clearly must God speak? What part of NO LAW do we not understand?

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:1-14

What a blind and stubborn people we are. We want to run back under the protection of a law no one could keep before, that only offers death, that brings us to a state of wretchedness and condemnation.

All who want to venerate the law...do you hear its demands on you? It does not ask for obedience....it demands it upon penalty of death, and if you run back to it in any way, shape or form, Christ profits you nothing. These are not my words, but those of the Apostle Paul.

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
Galatians 3:23-25

Children of God, I must warn you. Satan would like nothing better than to throw us back under the bus called the law of commandments, which Paul calls the law of sin and death, making us depend upon our strength and our determination and our self-control to obey. We can't! We need Christ in us, and He will only come by faith, not by our righteous deeds, for they are a stench in His nostrils.

Satan has many weapons today in this last ditch attempt to draw men away from the love of God, but He has two main ones....

1) Discredit the word of God that is profitable for instruction on righteousness. Once we take scissors to it in any way, we are doomed.

2) Put us back under the law in any way, for it is there that faith is put on the alter and slain.

What must we then do to be saved? How do we truly become righteous? Believe on Him! Hear His words!

Now are you light in the Lord!

You are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Do we not remember that the law has dominion over a man only as long as he liveth?? Christ died and we died with Him to free us from the curse of the law! Rise up, people of God and use God's word as a sword and faith in His promises as your shield. The enemy is already in our camp devouring souls. This point is no small matter and Paul said of those who would bring the Galatians back under the grip of the law that he wished them cut off.... amputated from the body. Do we have any idea how serious a question this is to our salvation??

The arrows are going to be flying at an ever increasing rate as Satan's time draws to a close. There is but one safe place, saints. Abiding in Him....by faith.

"But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter."
Romans 7:6

Some may question why I am so adamant on this subject. Perhaps these verses might shed light on that.

"For I, through the law, am dead to the law, that I might live to God. I don't make void the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 2:19, 21

Wake up, people of God. Deception is at our doors and if we are not wise at this critical time, our terenity is put at stake.

Blessings,

Bruce

BruceG
Mar 16th 2010, 12:20 PM
So do you agree then that what ever God has commanded cannot be altered unles God himself alters it?

Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Ex 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Has Gods commandment changed?

Firstfruits

Excellent post Firstfruits. We cannot pick and choose which laws we will obey and which we do not like. Nor can we choose the punishment for breaking the law. They were carved in stone. Paul said it was all or it was nothing. Grace or works of the law...we choose. One leads to life, the other death. Will we truly be so foolish as to run back to a system that sets note free?

Please note, you would would be under the law again, if you lust, you have already committed adultery. The law not only demands 100% obedience, where if you break one commandment, it judges you guilty of all, it demands your obedience be done with a pure heart. Run, saints...run into the arms of grace and seek for the power to overcome the fleshly nature and keeps us earhtbound and confused. We are promised "the glorious liberty of the children of God" and if we have not found it yet, let us fall on our knees and plead with our Lord for wisdom on how to get it. Jesus said this:

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:31-36

This is His promise to us as His children. He offers a walk we have been satisfied without, much to our shame. He offers us full victory, an overcomers heart, with the world, the flesh and the devil as defeated foes. It is for the very reason that we have been satisfied to have sin still in our hearts that we run back for comfort and structure and boundaries of the law, thinking it will help us. Be warned: It will kill us.

Bruce

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 16th 2010, 02:21 PM
Chirst said and I quote "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." asuch as we don't like rules Christ says if we love Him we will follow His rules. Not out a sense of "DO THIS NOW, grr" but because we love him

Maybe one should ask... How are you 'Justified' in the Eyes of the Father?

is it by our painstakinglly attempting to 'fullfill' all the Ten Commandments? out of your own power.. so that you can 'please' God?...


or is it TRUST AND FAITH in the One who has Already fulfilled them Perfectly..

Abiding In Him.. and Loving others as He has loved you.. and Loving the LORD with all your Heart Soul spirit and strength..

as Christ the Hope of Glory Lives in you and thru you..

Loving God with all your strength , soul, spirit, and strength.. and to love your neighbor as yourself... the Law and of the prophets are 'fulfilled' in these two commandments... and Jesus did this perfectly.. when He went to the bloody Tree.. and Gave Himself for His Friends..


and this is My Commandment.. that ye love one another, as I have Loved you....

if you are painstakinglly trying to fulfill under the Old Covenant, but claim your walking in Grace.. then your not walking in Grace at all.. but ye have fallen from Grace...

Paul wrote a whole letter to the Galations about the error of their ways.. as some slipped in to trip them up from walking in Grace.. The Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.. this you cant earn, or work for, nor pay for it.. Grace means to be 'highly favoroured'....

newinchrist4now
Mar 16th 2010, 07:34 PM
Has Gods commandment changed?

Firstfruits

That is the gazillon dollar question, it seems #4 has changed. If that be the case then God can not be the same yesterday, today, and forever. A great debate topic to be sure

newinchrist4now
Mar 16th 2010, 07:41 PM
[SIZE="4"][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]The question is...will we simply accept the word of God as true? Or are we determined to wrestle with it to our own destruction?



The thing seems that we don't accept God's Word entirely. Christ said to keep his commands if we love Him so here is the quandary do we accept His Law as given are can we change it at will.

Before everyone starts saying something about punishments under the law, I am not talking about that and no longer are we under condemnation of the law but now in Christ. However if you note, Christ never said to stop following He even said to follow, not out of fear but because we love Him. So the question remains Can we change God's law? It does appear that we have changed number 4

newinchrist4now
Mar 16th 2010, 07:42 PM
Maybe one should ask... How are you 'Justified' in the Eyes of the Father?

is it by our painstakinglly attempting to 'fullfill' all the Ten Commandments? out of your own power.. so that you can 'please' God?...


No it is because Christ has told us to out of love for Him.

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I don't think anyone is getting this that Christ said to keep following His law

Frecs
Mar 16th 2010, 07:46 PM
I am still content to dwell on it in the intellectual realm :) On a practical level Christ never said not to follow His command, nor in the Ten Commandments is it given how we should do things. Note I am only speaking of the Ten not the myrid of rules latched on by the Jewish law people.

Me thinks you need to pull out your Bible and read the Book of Leviticus. Those, my friend, are not the "rules...of Jewish law people" those are the Laws given to Moses by God. That is The Law. In there it gives the details of what "Sabbath" is and what could and could not be done on the Sabbath Day, Sabbath Year, and Jubilee. If you feel that you must follow the commandment to keep the Sabbath, then, my friend, you must follow all those rules including for the Sabbath Year and Jubilee.

The New Testament makes it clear that if you want to keep one day holy, you are free to do so but there is not law or regulation. You can keep Saturday, I can keep Sunday, another can keep none or all. That's what the New Covenant bound by the blood of Jesus states for us.

newinchrist4now
Mar 16th 2010, 07:49 PM
The New Testament makes it clear that if you want to keep one day holy, you are free to do so but there is not law or regulation. You can keep Saturday, I can keep Sunday, another can keep none or all. That's what the New Covenant bound by the blood of Jesus states for us.So do we have our first lie in the Bible? Christ said "If you love me you will keep my commandments" and another section says who cares. No where I see Christ saying don't keep them

Frecs
Mar 16th 2010, 07:57 PM
The thing seems that we don't accept God's Word entirely. Christ said to keep his commands if we love Him so here is the quandary do we accept His Law as given are can we change it at will.

Before everyone starts saying something about punishments under the law, I am not talking about that and no longer are we under condemnation of the law but now in Christ. However if you note, Christ never said to stop following He even said to follow, not out of fear but because we love Him. So the question remains Can we change God's law? It does appear that we have changed number 4

I think perhaps what you are trying to say is that while we are not under The Law, we can use it as an instruction in righteousness. "All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work". 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

God wants us to be holy as He is holy. His word, rightly divided, is our training manual in holy living. What does the Sabbath teach us? That rest is good and necessary. That even the land needs rest (every seventh year). That justice needs a Sabbath (Jubilee). That if the followers of God trusted His provision by following the Sabbath pattern (trusting He would provide sufficiently in year 6 to cover years 7 & 8) they would not be disappointed. It teaches us to trust God as our provider (Jehovah Jireh) rather than our own efforts.

BroRog
Mar 16th 2010, 09:31 PM
The thing seems that we don't accept God's Word entirely. Christ said to keep his commands if we love Him so here is the quandary do we accept His Law as given are can we change it at will.

Before everyone starts saying something about punishments under the law, I am not talking about that and no longer are we under condemnation of the law but now in Christ. However if you note, Christ never said to stop following He even said to follow, not out of fear but because we love Him. So the question remains Can we change God's law? It does appear that we have changed number 4I don't agree with your premise that when Jesus said "keep my commandments" he meant "keep the Law of Moses", or "keep the Ten Commandments." Jesus isn't talking about those commandments, of which the Jews were already obeying. He was talking about commandments like, "love your enemies", "pray for those who persecute you" and "forgive that your heavenly father might forgive you."

Frecs
Mar 16th 2010, 10:37 PM
So do we have our first lie in the Bible? Christ said "If you love me you will keep my commandments" and another section says who cares. No where I see Christ saying don't keep them

Of course the Bible doesn't lie. What you are failing to do is look at the full counsel of scripture. I was quoting Paul, an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Do you reject Paul's writings as unbiblical? If you believe that Paul's words are the God-breathed inspired words as I do, then you would understand that Jesus fulfilled The Law of Moses, putting into place a New Covenant with His Blood as the Seal and Atonement, and freed us to live the commandment or law of loving God with our whole heart soul mind and body and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Paul goes into quite extensive explanations as to why we are not required to follow The Law, including the Sabbath or any other "holy" day. It is an area of freedom to choose for oneself after careful study and prayer.

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 12:59 AM
I think perhaps what you are trying to say is that while we are not under The Law, we can use it as an instruction in righteousness. "All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work". 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

God wants us to be holy as He is holy. His word, rightly divided, is our training manual in holy living. What does the Sabbath teach us? That rest is good and necessary. That even the land needs rest (every seventh year). That justice needs a Sabbath (Jubilee). That if the followers of God trusted His provision by following the Sabbath pattern (trusting He would provide sufficiently in year 6 to cover years 7 & 8) they would not be disappointed. It teaches us to trust God as our provider (Jehovah Jireh) rather than our own efforts.

I thought about what you said here and I will say yes kind of. What I am saying is we are not under the consequences of the old law (ten commandments) but they are not done away with either. Now if we break one (sin) we can ask the Father for forgiveness and He is more than willing to grant it. The law is written on our hearts now, a lot of times we call this common sense but sometimes I think it's us knowing the law without realizing it :)

I would not have argued with the OP that we are no under the Law, but that the fourth as far as a day is fluid and not set in stone from what God has told u in His New Covenant with us. It's evident that Christ still wants us to follow the commandments and He summarized them in the NT, it is that we no longer live under the condemnation of the law :)

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 01:00 AM
I don't agree with your premise that when Jesus said "keep my commandments" he meant "keep the Law of Moses", or "keep the Ten Commandments." Jesus isn't talking about those commandments, of which the Jews were already obeying. He was talking about commandments like, "love your enemies", "pray for those who persecute you" and "forgive that your heavenly father might forgive you."

Those are all in the 10 commandments He Hinself gave us :)

Frecs
Mar 17th 2010, 01:50 AM
Those are all in the 10 commandments He Hinself gave us :)

Perhaps it would help if you tell us what you think the 10 Commandents are...specifically. :hmm: Just wanting to be sure we are talking about the same thing here....:saint:

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 01:58 AM
Perhaps it would help if you tell us what you think the 10 Commandents are...specifically. :hmm: Just wanting to be sure we are talking about the same thing here....:saint:

Sure :) The only ones I know are from Scripture:

I am the Lord your God
You shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for yourself an idol
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor

BruceG
Mar 17th 2010, 02:09 AM
So do we have our first lie in the Bible? Christ said "If you love me you will keep my commandments" and another section says who cares. No where I see Christ saying don't keep them

I do not mean to put you on the spot here, and when I ask this, I do it in love, brother. What youquoted is a promise for God. You will keep my commandments if you love me. So I ask you. Do you? Or do you just try to? There is a huge difference.

If we live by the law of commandments, we are bound to live under the whole weight of that law. All of it, including its punishments for disobedience. And what did the law require?Perfect obedience. One slip and the law judges you guilty of all.

There were actually men once who were convinced that they were indeed obeying ALL the law as it weas written...the pharisees. Jesus "educated" them on the spirit the law demanded that they had overlooked . Not only must we obey 100% of the time, we must do it with a pure heart. Have you lusted...looked at porn? You have committed adultery according to the law. Jesus's words, not mine. The law was not intended as our guilde ot life, but as our pathway to die to self efffort. Without Christ in us, we can do NOTHING.

In the past, we were indeeed commanded to obey God thru the law, you are correct. This was how God was to teach us about our old nature. It was to make sin in us exceedingly sinful. The law tells us what to do, but not how to do it. No one can obey the law perfectly, save one man, Jesus Christ. He did so, lived a perfect life and then took the punishment that the law had reserved for us that we were indeed worthy of...death.

The law was to be our schoolmaster to teach us our innate sinfulness, our weakness, our inability to obey God's commandments, no matter how hard we try. Yet how many still to this day have not discoved the depth of the truth that "In me dwells no good thing." How many still think that we must slave under the hard taskmaster rather than serve God in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter.

Until the law has broken us completely and left us utterly without hope in ever pleasing God by our actions,and left us pleading for mercy and for a new heart that can indeed obey because of Christ indwelling us, we cannot see the new covenant where God promises to "cause us" to obey.

If you want to worship on the sabbath, wonderful.God loves that you choose to honoe him that day. But the minute you think you HAVE to do it, whether it be Saturday or Sunday or you have to do anything to please Him other than accept the gift of His indwelling spirit by faith, you are back under the law and you will fail...guaranteed.

We must finally realize we need a new man, a nature with the fallen part. God has one reserved for us if we would just believe it.

Read Galatians, especially chapter 4. Until we completely understand we are released from the law, we will toil and labor and not experience the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Bruce

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 02:12 AM
All who abide in Christ and love him keep His commandments. Christ told us to

BruceG
Mar 17th 2010, 02:33 AM
No it is because Christ has told us to out of love for Him.

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I don't think anyone is getting this that Christ said to keep following His law

Think about it. God said "Obey my voice and I will be your God and you will be my people." He gave us the 10 commandments and another 613 commandments to boot. Israel for 4000 years never kept them but backslid constantly, no matter what God threatened them with. So here comes Jesus and He dies for us. Nothing has changed, we must still obey. But now we not only have to obey but we have to be thankful on top of that?? Somehow this adding of one more requirement...gratitude is going to make the difference? Well, has it? Do you not sin now?

Jesus came to die so that a new covenant could replace the old one ("...which covenant ye brake"- God). But we cannot get free of the old one until we see we need to be freed, that we are captive due to our fallen natures. The law must do its work. It must crush us under its demands, leaving us begging God for relief, for a new heart, for an obedient nature. It is only then, when the schoolmaster has done its work, when our pride and self confidence is melted uder the weight of our need for PERFECT OBEDIENCE that we can walk in the blessings of the new covenant. We are then finally released from the schoolmaster and it has no sway on us anymore. "He that is dead is freed from the law."

I will let the word of God say what it says, for it is very clear. let me set the stage. Paul has established a gentile church in Galatia. Men from the motherr church in Jerusalem came to them, telling the men that now that they believed, they needed to be circumcised according to the law. Paul had a royal hissy fit. Here is what he wrote them.....

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:1-5

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:10-14

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the seed should come to whom the promise was made; Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3:19-22

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 3:23-25

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
Galatians 5:1-4

Brother, God wants to set us from the bondage the law works in us, but until it does its work and humbles us and lets us see how weak we truly are to resist sin, we cannot look on or receive the promises the new covenant makes us to be walked in by faith alone.


May God bless your search.

BruceG
Mar 17th 2010, 02:53 AM
What amazes me and always has is that this one small, not hard to keep commandment is so rebelled against

Do we REALLY want to go back unbder the law? Let me share a story. The 10 commandments had just been given. A man was brought to Moses, who was gathering sticks to make a fire for cooking on the Sabbath. The law was new. They knew it was wrong, but did not know the penalty, nor what yo do to him. So they consulted Moses. Moses consulted God. Do you know what God said?

"Take him out and stone him to death."

I will let that sink in a little. Is this what we want to run back to? Do we understand what the law demands of us? There is no grace in the law. it is 100% our responsibility to obey all.

1) The law demands 100% obedience 100% of the time, on penalty of death.

2) And for the pharisee types who were proud of their dedication, their efforts, their self control, men who had deceived themselves into thinking they were pleasing God by doing #1, God told them this. Not only does the law demand perfect obedience, it demands that the thoughts and intents of our hearts be perfect as well. If you have lusted, you have committed adultery. The penalty is death. Gulp.

This is what we want? Careful what we wish for. There is a pricetag to be paid.

"Christ has redeemed us for the curse of the law, being made a curse for us. He that is dead is freed from the law."

As Paul chastised the Galatians, I ask those of us anxious to return under the grip of a covenant that set no one free, that leaves us crying out "O wrethed man that I am. The things I do not want to do, ido, and the things I do want to do, i end up not doing!": Are we so foolish? After starting by faith, are we now going to be made perfect by the fleshly efforts? God forbid. How can we that are dead to the law, live any longer therein??

Dear God, what are we thinking? Careful brothers, deception is at the door. As Paul said finally to the galatians...

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
Galatians 5:1-4

Bruce

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 02:58 AM
The law never left, the consequences did. Simply if you (generic you) love Christ you'll keep His commandments and since we have the HS we will always being able to keep His commandments.

Your problem is your stuck on the consequences as most are that get into this kind of debate, we don't get away from rules just because we become Christians.

Frecs
Mar 17th 2010, 03:16 AM
Sure :) The only ones I know are from Scripture:

I am the Lord your God
You shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for yourself an idol
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor

Okay, thanks for responding. :D

Now, the reason I asked was because you responded to this:


I don't agree with your premise that when Jesus said "keep my commandments" he meant "keep the Law of Moses", or "keep the Ten Commandments." Jesus isn't talking about those commandments, of which the Jews were already obeying. He was talking about commandments like, "love your enemies", "pray for those who persecute you" and "forgive that your heavenly father might forgive you."

in such a way that suggested (at least to my reading of it) that "pray for those who persecute you" was one of the 10 commandments.

Bruce has done a great job of expounding on Paul's teaching in Galatians about trying to live under The Law. The whole point of the First Covenant was God trying to show the Isrealites that they could not be holy by themselves....there was no way they could follow all 600+ commandments (and, no, the 10 were not the only ones...if you think they were you really need to read Leviticus because that whole book is about God's Laws for the Israelites--what was required under the First Covenant). The Israelites, being the stiff-necked people they were, proudly boasted at Mt. Horeb that they could follow all the commandments. Poppycock! The Law shows us our complete and utter inability to be holy on our own. That's the point. God knew it.

Jesus came to fulfill the law. You might also want to take note that Jesus on several occasions broke The Law. :eek: Yeah...He who was our sinless Lamb broke the Sabbath a number of times. He also touched lepers and a woman with an issue of blood...:o Jesus changed the pattern of the Passover meal (Seder) -- something specifically outlined by God to be adhered to UNDER THE LAW. Paul, a Pharisee among Pharisees, taught that the Law was dead...that converts to Christianity did not need to be circumcised or keep the Sabbath or keep the dietary Laws. Peter did likewise.

The point I'm trying to make (poorly so I'm sure) is that the Law was fulfilled by Jesus. We are not bound by it any longer. Praise God! There are principles to be learned from those scriptures, but, we are free--Jesus set us free by His Shed Blood. Enjoy your sabbath rest on whatever day feels right to you. Honor God in the adherence. But, give grace to those who choose otherwise.

Servant89
Mar 17th 2010, 03:20 AM
Oh my sweet Jesus... I am out for a day and .... too much to catch up with ... and no time tonight (already past 11 pm).

2000 years ago, the religious people that went to church (synagogue) regularly could not stand seeing Jesus working on Sabbath days... it bothered them. That one single commandment ... got them real upset.

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

God works on Sabbath days. The opposite of rest is work.

The Apostle Paul started all his letters to the churches with "I thank God for you" , he did that in the first chapter ... (see Rom 1:8; 1Cor 1:4; Eph 1:16; Phil 1:3; Col 1:3-4; 1The 1:2). He did that for all the churches except one... the church of Galatia, which he never thank God for them, ever... instead, in Gal 1:8-9, he cursed them twice... why? They blew it... they entered a non-negotiable, trying to improve the character of Christians through the law.

See Gal 2:16; Gal 2:21; Gal 5:4; Gal 3:1-6.

The Galatians fell from grace, frustrated the grace of God with their obsession about keeping the law.

Shalom

BroRog
Mar 17th 2010, 04:22 PM
Those are all in the 10 commandments He Himself gave us :)Jesus didn't give us the ten commandments. God gave Israel the ten commandments. When Jesus talked about keeping HIS commandments he was talking about the things he said to his disciples.

I asked you earlier if you would murder had God not given the ten commandments? You didn't answer. I asked the hypothetical question in order to make a distinction between a "law" and a "moral value". As I see it, murder is always wrong; it is inherently wrong. Technically, God didn't need to make a law against it; it is wrong whether a law prohibits it or not. Murder is always wrong whether it's in the Ten Commandments or not, because murder is always wrong even if no one said it was wrong.

The same cannot be said for the fourth commandment. As Jesus said, there are times when it was acceptable to break the fourth commandment. The same thing can not be said for the commandment against murder, which is always wrong and never excusable. See the difference? Murder is inherently wrong, but keeping the Sabbath day is not inherently wrong. Israel was to keep the fourth commandment, not because there is something inherently wrong about not keeping it, but simply because God wanted Israel to obey it. If breaking the Sabbath was inherently wrong, then Gentiles would be obligated to keep it. But since breaking the Sabbath is not inherently wrong, and since God did not instruct Gentiles to keep it, then it is optional for Gentiles.

Firstfruits
Mar 17th 2010, 04:30 PM
Jesus didn't give us the ten commandments. God gave Israel the ten commandments. When Jesus talked about keeping HIS commandments he was talking about the things he said to his disciples.

I asked you earlier if you would murder had God not given the ten commandments? You didn't answer. I asked the hypothetical question in order to make a distinction between a "law" and a "moral value". As I see it, murder is always wrong; it is inherently wrong. Technically, God didn't need to make a law against it; it is wrong whether a law prohibits it or not. Murder is always wrong whether it's in the Ten Commandments or not, because murder is always wrong even if no one said it was wrong.

The same cannot be said for the fourth commandment. As Jesus said, there are times when it was acceptable to break the fourth commandment. The same thing can not be said for the commandment against murder, which is always wrong and never excusable. See the difference? Murder is inherently wrong, but keeping the Sabbath day is not inherently wrong. Israel was to keep the fourth commandment, not because there is something inherently wrong about not keeping it, but simply because God wanted Israel to obey it. If breaking the Sabbath was inherently wrong, then Gentiles would be obligated to keep it. But since breaking the Sabbath is not inherently wrong, and since God did not instruct Gentiles to keep it, then it is optional for Gentiles.

Gentiles were never given the law.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

We are they without the law.

1 Cor 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Acts 15:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Firstfruits

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 07:12 PM
Jesus didn't give us the ten commandments. God gave Israel the ten commandments.

So (you walked right into this one) Jesus isn't God then?

Firstfruits
Mar 17th 2010, 07:41 PM
So (you walked right into this one) Jesus isn't God then?

If we are of the law do we no longer need faith?

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

If faith is made void, and we need faith to believe and be saved, then how are we saved without faith?

Firstfruits

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 07:44 PM
If we are of the law do we no longer need faith?

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

If faith is made void, and we need faith to believe and be saved, then how are we saved without faith?

Firstfruits

Faith through grace saves but doesn't give us carte blache freedom to do as we please. There always is a law anyway you slice it, Christ told us to keep His commandments if we loved Him which is written on our Hearts. If we refuse to do we really love Him. Everyone knows what the 10 commandments are and with His help they are very easy to keep.

God's moral law was never done away with, it was the ceremonial law that was and the punishments there of.

Firstfruits
Mar 17th 2010, 08:06 PM
Faith through grace saves but doesn't give us carte blache freedom to do as we please. There always is a law anyway you slice it, Christ told us to keep His commandments if we loved Him which is written on our Hearts. If we refuse to do we really love Him. Everyone knows what the 10 commandments are and with His help they are very easy to keep.

God's moral law was never done away with, it was the ceremonial law that was and the punishments there of.

In the following scriptures, why is Christ dead in vain, and why is Christ of none effect?

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

What does it mean for Israel not to attain the law of righteousness?

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Firstfruits

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 08:44 PM
I never said none of those things, never, never have I said that. For some reason people can't get past that

Firstfruits
Mar 17th 2010, 08:55 PM
I never said none of those things, never, never have I said that. For some reason people can't get past that

I am asking why the scriptures say what is written.

In the following scriptures, why is Christ dead in vain, and why is Christ of none effect?

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

What does it mean for Israel not to attain the law of righteousness?

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Firstfruits

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 09:07 PM
FF enough of your silliness, you try to do it to all who don't believe as you do. Than you play the fool I will answer you no more

Firstfruits
Mar 17th 2010, 09:15 PM
FF enough of your silliness, you try to do it to all who don't believe as you do. Than you play the fool I will answer you no more

I am sorry but is what Paul wrote incorrect?

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Again, I am asking what the scriptures mean.

Firstfruits

BroRog
Mar 17th 2010, 09:22 PM
So (you walked right into this one) Jesus isn't God then?

Here is what I meant. Notice in the following verses that God instituted the sabbaths, and in particular, the seventh day Sabbath as a sign between God and the sons of Jacob.



But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, "You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:13-17

Do you see that the Seventh Day Sabbath is particular and unique to the sons of Israel as a sign that Yahweh is a holy God? Some Christians get tripped up by this since the Sabbath day commandment is among the Ten Commandments, thinking that God intended for the Ten Commandments to apply to the entire world. But God intends for the fourth commandment to apply specifically to the sons of Jacob and is a perpetual covenant between them and God. It has nothing to do with us Gentiles.

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 09:27 PM
As Christians grafted in the Ten Commandments apply to all. The 10 Commandments are not gone, unless God changes. He is the same all the time and His law never dies, it amazes me how far Christians will go in search of disobedience

Firstfruits
Mar 17th 2010, 09:29 PM
Here is what I meant. Notice in the following verses that God instituted the sabbaths, and in particular, the seventh day Sabbath as a sign between God and the sons of Jacob.



But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, "You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:13-17

Do you see that the Seventh Day Sabbath is particular and unique to the sons of Israel as a sign that Yahweh is a holy God? Some Christians get tripped up by this since the Sabbath day commandment is among the Ten Commandments, thinking that God intended for the Ten Commandments to apply to the entire world. But God intends for the fourth commandment to apply specifically to the sons of Jacob and is a perpetual covenant between them and God. It has nothing to do with us Gentiles.

I believe the following affrims what you have said.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
Mar 17th 2010, 09:38 PM
As Christians grafted in the Ten Commandments apply to all. The 10 Commandments are not gone, unless God changes. He is the same all the time and His law never dies, it amazes me how far Christians will go in search of disobedienceYou see, I don't think Gentile Christians have been grafted onto Israel. And it isn't a matter of looking for a way to disobey. If I thought that God wanted me to rest on the Sabbath day, I would do it. I have no problem with it.

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 09:40 PM
He does, for God said "If you love me you will keep my commandments". What day is not specifed

Frecs
Mar 17th 2010, 09:42 PM
FF enough of your silliness, you try to do it to all who don't believe as you do. Than you play the fool I will answer you no more

<sigh> Then, I will humbly try a different way to the same point though I am not as eloquent...


Jesus didn't give us the ten commandments. God gave Israel the ten commandments.

So (you walked right into this one) Jesus isn't God then?

I think perchance you missed the point being made. Of course Jesus is God and eternally part of the Godhead. The Ten Commandments along with the full Leviticial Law was given to the Israelites as the Mosiac or First Covenant. If they had been so easy to follow (as you suggest in one of your responses) there would not have been a problem. The point was to show the Israelites and everyone else, just how impossible it is for us sinful humans to achieve the holiness of God. We could not do it within ourselves. Thus, the need for a Savior.

The Galatian Church believed that they had to adhere to the Levitical Laws. They believed that even as born-again Christians covered by the atoning blood of Jesus they still needed to be subject to the Law. As the Apostle Paul explains to them in the Book of Galatians, such a belief undoes what Jesus did on the cross. In Romans, Paul declares that those who adhere to the Law have made their faith in Jesus void. (Romans 4:14) Clearly, Paul felt very strongly about this issue. We as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are not under the Law (the 10 Commandments and the Levitical Laws).


Faith through grace saves but doesn't give us carte blache freedom to do as we please. There always is a law anyway you slice it, Christ told us to keep His commandments if we loved Him which is written on our Hearts. If we refuse to do we really love Him. Everyone knows what the 10 commandments are and with His help they are very easy to keep.

God's moral law was never done away with, it was the ceremonial law that was and the punishments there of.

Actually, Paul says that the purpose of the Law was to highlight the sinful nature of men (ie., to make us more aware of our sinfulness). By understanding our sinful state, we appreciate that grace, through Jesus Christ, abounds even more. That does not mean we sin more to get more grace! Thus, the Levitical Laws, including the 10 Commandments, still have their place as instruction, training, and to highlight our sinful state--to remind us of our need for the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. We are no longer subject to The Law. We are free in Jesus Christ.

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 5:19-21)

As to having carte blanche to sin: Read Romans chapter 6 in whole. I'll focus on the first few verses:

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? (Romans 6:1-2)
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:6-7)

We are not under The Law so some might think that gives them carte blanche to sin. But, we are dead in Christ and thus dead to the sinful nature. Our spirit is subject to Christ's spirit and we are guided by the Holy Spirit into holy living.

No one is saying to ignore the teachings of the Old Testament including the Pentateuch. They are still for our instruction, correction, and training in righteousness. We are just not bound in their chains any longer. We are prisoners who have been set free. Let us not return to the old chains and make Christ's shed blood of no benefit.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:16)

Humbly submitted,

Frecs

Vhayes
Mar 17th 2010, 09:42 PM
As Christians grafted in the Ten Commandments apply to all. The 10 Commandments are not gone, unless God changes. He is the same all the time and His law never dies, it amazes me how far Christians will go in search of disobedience
Actually, it's harder to follow the Law of Liberty than it is to follow the Mosaic Law. If you think it in your mind, you are guilty of the deed. To be angry with your brother is to be as guilty as though you had murdered him.

This verse is critical, in my opinion.
Galatians 3
19 - Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

newinchrist4now
Mar 17th 2010, 09:45 PM
<sigh> Then, I will humbly try a different way to the same point though I am not as eloquent...


I wasn't referring to you, it was Firstfruits I was referring to. As far as the rest the 10 commandments are always there and never gone, God doesn't change.

Firstfruits
Mar 17th 2010, 09:48 PM
You see, I don't think Gentile Christians have been grafted onto Israel. And it isn't a matter of looking for a way to disobey. If I thought that God wanted me to rest on the Sabbath day, I would do it. I have no problem with it.


We are now in Christ and we are to abide in him.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

We are all to come into the one body of Jesus.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

God bless you!

firstfruits

losthorizon
Mar 17th 2010, 11:08 PM
Gentiles were never given the law.


The law of Moses was a law based on works – the law of Christ is a law based on faith and love. Christians (Jew and Gentile) live and die under the law of Christ. The law of Moses was nailed to the cross of Christ - fulfilled, annulled and forever made redundant. The law of Christ is not about day-keeping because day-keeping belongs to the law based on works. Not one Christian was ever commanded to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath law was given to the Hebrew nation alone and ended with Christ's finished work on the cross. Those who keep the 4th commandment as a matter of law (a yoke of bondage) are committing an egregious error - they have fallen away from grace...Stand fast in the liberty with which Christ has made us free.
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:1

You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace! Gal 5:4

Vhayes
Mar 17th 2010, 11:12 PM
I wasn't referring to you, it was Firstfruits I was referring to. As far as the rest the 10 commandments are always there and never gone, God doesn't change.

God doesn't change but the way He deals with mankind certainly does. Do you walk in the Garden? Does the Great I AM lead you in a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day? Do we have an earthly King, like David?

Frecs
Mar 17th 2010, 11:55 PM
I wasn't referring to you, it was Firstfruits I was referring to. As far as the rest the 10 commandments are always there and never gone, God doesn't change.

You don't really read the responses, do you? or, are you just not willing to hear?

Frecs
Mar 17th 2010, 11:57 PM
You see, I don't think Gentile Christians have been grafted onto Israel. And it isn't a matter of looking for a way to disobey. If I thought that God wanted me to rest on the Sabbath day, I would do it. I have no problem with it.

You are right. We aren't grafted into the nation of Israel. We are grafted into the Vine. Big difference.

JLM Lives
Mar 18th 2010, 12:01 AM
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday today and forever. Does God change his mind about His Word? I think not. The ten commandments live thru me, As a child of God that's all I care about. Let God be true. Amen?

Vhayes
Mar 18th 2010, 04:31 AM
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday today and forever. Does God change his mind about His Word? I think not. The ten commandments live thru me, As a child of God that's all I care about. Let God be true. Amen?

Jesus Christ is absolutely the same. The manner in which He deals with us has changed. It has always been by faith in Him that we are saved but I haven't walked in the Garden of Eden, I haven't entered a physical ark, I have never followed a cloud by day nor been warmed and illumined by a pillar of fire at night.

Frecs
Mar 18th 2010, 11:53 AM
Jesus Christ is absolutely the same. The manner in which He deals with us has changed. It has always been by faith in Him that we are saved but I haven't walked in the Garden of Eden, I haven't entered a physical ark, I have never followed a cloud by day nor been warmed and illumined by a pillar of fire at night.

Nor did Jesus get stoned for breaking the Sabbath nor did He call for anyone else to be stoned for breaking the Sabbath:

Exd 31:14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

Nor do we stone to death those who worship other gods:

and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. Deut. 17:3-5

So, you want to be subject to The Law? Your Jesus requires it, does he? Then on the Sabbath you may not work, not you or anyone in your household including your animals. You may not cook. You may not clean. You may not travel more than 1 mile--so if you want to attend church services you had better live within one mile of it. You may not heal. You must lay and rest. To do any of those things would result in being stoned to death. THATS THE LAW.

Then, Every seventh year, you may not plant nor harvest -- nor should you eat fresh food because someone broke the Sabbath to grow it. The land must rest. Every 7th sabbath year, all property goes back to the original owner (Native Americans in the US) and all debts are cancelled. THAT'S THE LAW.

Firstfruits
Mar 18th 2010, 12:24 PM
I wasn't referring to you, it was Firstfruits I was referring to. As far as the rest the 10 commandments are always there and never gone, God doesn't change.

Since they have never gone, and should be as God gave them, then not to do as God commands, if a commandment is broken is also not being obedient to Gods law.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Whatever God has commanded regarding the Sabbath must be obeyed including the point about those that break the Sabbath to be killed. That is what God has commanded concerning the Sabbath.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 18th 2010, 12:27 PM
The law of Moses was a law based on works – the law of Christ is a law based on faith and love. Christians (Jew and Gentile) live and die under the law of Christ. The law of Moses was nailed to the cross of Christ - fulfilled, annulled and forever made redundant. The law of Christ is not about day-keeping because day-keeping belongs to the law based on works. Not one Christian was ever commanded to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath law was given to the Hebrew nation alone and ended with Christ's finished work on the cross. Those who keep the 4th commandment as a matter of law (a yoke of bondage) are committing an egregious error - they have fallen away from grace...Stand fast in the liberty with which Christ has made us free.
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:1

You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace! Gal 5:4

Thanks Losthorizon,

Agreed!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Mar 18th 2010, 02:33 PM
Nor did Jesus get stoned for breaking the Sabbath nor did He call for anyone else to be stoned for breaking the Sabbath:

Exd 31:14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

Nor do we stone to death those who worship other gods:

and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. Deut. 17:3-5

So, you want to be subject to The Law? Your Jesus requires it, does he? Then on the Sabbath you may not work, not you or anyone in your household including your animals. You may not cook. You may not clean. You may not travel more than 1 mile--so if you want to attend church services you had better live within one mile of it. You may not heal. You must lay and rest. To do any of those things would result in being stoned to death. THATS THE LAW.

Then, Every seventh year, you may not plant nor harvest -- nor should you eat fresh food because someone broke the Sabbath to grow it. The land must rest. Every 7th sabbath year, all property goes back to the original owner (Native Americans in the US) and all debts are cancelled. THAT'S THE LAW.

I live under the Law of Liberty, Frecs. I have NO desire to live under the Mosaic Law - it was written to and for the sons of israel - not me.

I don't know how you got the idea from my post that I desire to follow the Law. i certainly do not. I have read Galatians.
V

Frecs
Mar 18th 2010, 02:36 PM
I live under the Law of Liberty, Frecs. I have NO desire to live under the Mosaic Law - it was written to and for the sons of israel - not me.

I don't know how you got the idea from my post that I desire to follow the Law. i certainly do not. I have read Galatians.
V

I was springbroading off your excellent post is all. Sorry for the confusion.

Vhayes
Mar 18th 2010, 02:37 PM
I was springbroading off your excellent post is all. Sorry for the confusion.

Ah - cool. Sorry - I misread. My mistake. Thank you for clearing that up!
V

Servant89
Mar 19th 2010, 02:00 AM
Biblical evidence showing that Commandment # 4 was broken, obliterated, turned to dust by God himself and does not apply to Christians anymore.

Reason # 10. Physical evidence, the Temple is not there anymore. With the disappearing of the Jewish Temple, the sacrifices went away, tithing went away and Sabbath went away.

Lam 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion (the Church, see it below), and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Reason # 9. The Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel (Israel are the branches that were broken off according to Rom 11)

Ex 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

The OT went away with the Temple and the Old Covenant.. The sign representing the OT had to go too.

Reason # 8. Lev 23 predicted the first harvest of believers (PEntecost) had to be celebrated on Sunday mornings every time, the HS showed up on time that first Sunday morning in Acts 2.

Reason # 7. Lev 23 predicted the firstfruits of the resurrection (JEsus Christ) was going to be the morning after the sabbath after passover and Jesus resurrected right on time that Sunday morning.

Reason # 6. All the commandments passed away (2Cor 3) now we do business based on two commandments (love God and love thy neigbor). We function out of love now, not by command. The Sabbath was made for man, not for God. It is for us to rest. God deserves to have a day too. It is fitting to serve him BEFORE we serve our eartly boss, before we serve anyone on the agenda for the week. We do it out of love, not by command. We worship him the first thing in the agenda for the week because we want to not because we have to. This is how God wants us to function. If we love him, do his commandments (those two about love, the new ones, not the others that were abolished). Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Reson # 5. 33/42 times that the word Sabbath shows up in the gospels is showing JEsus working (not resting, but WORKING) on the day of rest.

Reason # 4. The 4th commadment has 3 parts (1- do not work on the 7th day; 2- work 6 days a week, not 5; and 3 REMEMBER !). Jesus worked on the day of rest, but GOD also FORGOT to quote the 4th commandment in the New Testament. It is the only one he FORGOT (on purpose).

Reason # 3. When accused of violating the Sabbath law, which he was not doing in Mat 12:1-6, his defense was : there are exceptions to the rule, sometimes when doing something unlawful is not sin (when the spirit of the law is being fulfilled) and when profaning the sabbath does not produce blame.

Reason # 2. In Luke 17:11-19 we see that Jesus is more pleased with people that put him first (byu turning back from the commandment) than with those that obey the letter of the law and that's it.

Reason # 1. John 5:16-18 states he BROKE the sabbath commandment.

Shalom

Dani H
Mar 19th 2010, 02:25 AM
As for keeping days holy and set apart for God:

It's every day ending in "Y".

This Saturday/Sabbath/Sunday thing argument is a crock. Every day belongs to God. Every day He has the right to do with us as He wishes. Every day He has the right to be worshipped. Every day He has the right for us to think of Him and meditate on Him, all day long, and meet together, whenever we can. We don't get to give Him 1/7 of "our days" (as if they were ours to begin with ... as if we made time or created ourselves) nor do we only get to give Him 1/10 of "our money" (as if it was ours to begin with).

It's all His. Every day is His. All our time is in His hands. So what difference does it make? Our jobs are His. Every second we spend, at any place, is His and for His use.

So if anybody here insists on giving God only 1 day of the week ... wow, you's in trouble, then. Really. :)

roaring tiger
Mar 19th 2010, 02:55 AM
As for keeping days holy and set apart for God:

It's every day ending in "Y".

This Saturday/Sabbath/Sunday thing argument is a crock. Every day belongs to God. Every day He has the right to do with us as He wishes. Every day He has the right to be worshipped. Every day He has the right for us to think of Him and meditate on Him, all day long, and meet together, whenever we can. We don't get to give Him 1/7 of "our days" (as if they were ours to begin with ... as if we made time or created ourselves) nor do we only get to give Him 1/10 of "our money" (as if it was ours to begin with).

It's all His. Every day is His. All our time is in His hands. So what difference does it make? Our jobs are His. Every second we spend, at any place, is His and for His use.

So if anybody here insists on giving God only 1 day of the week ... wow, you's in trouble, then. Really. :)

Hi!!!DaniHansen greetings;
I do agree on your exellent post.Mark 2:27 And said unto them, The sabath was made for man,and not man for sabath:
v.28 Therefore The Son of man is Lord also of sabath.
Every morning after hours of rest,upon awakening I give thanks to God for another day of grace;for if he did not give me life,then it will be my day of sabath to return to my creator.
So, while my spirit is here in his temple my responsibilities is to serve him.
Psalm119:164 Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgement.
Ps.56:10 In God will I praise his word:in the Lord I will praise his word.
So every day is a sabath day for me.
Many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Servant89
Mar 19th 2010, 09:33 AM
More Bible evidence that God broke the Sabbath commandment

Reason # 11. (The theory) We can not marry Christ and can not bear fruit until we are dead to the law:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Reason # 12. (The theory) We can not see the message of freedom in the Spirit, as long as the vail of the OT law covers our eyes.

2Cor 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

God set Israel free on the day of passover, Jesus set us free on the day of passover too, free from the law of sin.

Reason # 13: The practice

By faith, Abraham offered up his son (ignoring the thou shalt not kill commandment), by faith Rahab the prostitute did not speak the truth to her people, by faith the Gibeonites got saved by not telling the truth to Joshua (see Joshua 9), the Rechabites disobeyed the Lord's commandment in Jer 35 and God was pleased because they put the spirit of the law above the letter of the law, the midwives in Egypt did not tell the truth to PHaraoh and God was pleased with them (Exo 1), the one leper than turned back from the commandment to put Jesus first got praised by Jesus (Luk 17:11-19) and the 9 that obeyed the commandment without putting Jesus first were less pleasing to God. Sunday is about putting God first in our agenda for the week. Jesus broke the rest of the 7th day by working on the 7th day in order to put people first, in order to fulfill the spirit of the law. He constantly worked on the day of rest. He broke the rest, he broke the Sabbath rest.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 19th 2010, 09:45 AM
So here is a question: May I murder?

Why ask me? Ask Abraham. Or better yet, ask Phinehas...

1 And Israel abode in Sitim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.
4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

The 6th commandment is quoted in the NT, nine of them are quoted, but not the 4th. The 4th is different from the others.

Shalom

newinchrist4now
Mar 19th 2010, 08:57 PM
I ask you, not them. So may I murder? May I have Idols? May I gossip? Do you believe God is the same always? Can God break His own law? No, the Ten Commandments are all still valid. See you and many are hung up on a day and I never mentioned one, but you and many assumed I did. If you really love Christ you keep His commandments, not out of fear because we are not under the curse anymore but out of love for God.

Your so caught up in trying to rebel that you don't see that even if you don't think about it your always following the 10 commandments without thinking about it. Now I am out of this thread

Frecs
Mar 19th 2010, 09:05 PM
<sigh> there are none so blind as they who will not see....</sigh>

Servant89
Mar 19th 2010, 11:20 PM
I ask you, not them. So may I murder? May I have Idols? May I gossip? Do you believe God is the same always? Can God break His own law? No, the Ten Commandments are all still valid. See you and many are hung up on a day and I never mentioned one, but you and many assumed I did. If you really love Christ you keep His commandments, not out of fear because we are not under the curse anymore but out of love for God.

Your so caught up in trying to rebel that you don't see that even if you don't think about it your always following the 10 commandments without thinking about it. Now I am out of this thread

This deals with the outside versus the inside. The outside is ruled by the law. Those under the law have to obey the law to be righteous. The law is what controls them from the outside, they do the right thing because they have to or else. By removing all the Commandments and the law, eternal life is now given to those that believe and do the right thing because they want to (not because they have to). If I want to murder someone but I do not do it for fear of jail, I completely failed to please the Lord even though I fulfilled the law of not murdering. That is why that system is not in effect anymore. Our righteousness is a filthy rag. But, when we do things out of love, it is because we want to, and that is what the Lord is really looking for in us. That is why we are in freedom from the law. That is why the one leper looked good before Jesus even though he turned from doing the commandment. That is why Jesus was not that pleased with the ones that faithfully obeyed his commandment to go to the priest, because even though they obeyed the commandment, they did not show what the Lord was really looking for, a genuine desire to thank him and praise him for it. The Lord looks at the heart all the time, he no longer looks at how well we meet the law writen in stone. He wants to see if we want to do the right thing because we want to. Here are other examples of people that did the right thing by blatant disobedience to the Loprd Jesus' commandment. They could not help themselves, their admiration for Jesus was too much to contain and blatantly disobeyed Jesus in a glorious decision to move away from doing business based on commandments and do the right thing out of love. Read it.

Mat 9:30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.
31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.

Mar 1:40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.
42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;
44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into the city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.

Mk 7:36 And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it;

Mat 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.
31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.

So, shall we worship God as a congregation on the last day of the week (obeying the commandment) or shall we put him first, and serve him first as a congregation before we serve our bosses? Shall we put him first in spite of the Commandment? YES WE WILL!

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 19th 2010, 11:37 PM
Can God break His own law? No, the Ten Commandments are all still valid.

The 9 commandments are still valid as evidence in the NT (but valid as a desire to fulfill the spirit of the law, inside the hearts of people filled with the HS). 2Cor 3 states the 10 com written in stone are not valid anymore. ( 9 of the 10 are alive inside Christians, Not the 4th).

<<Can God break his own law?>> How many verses do I have to paste before people will believe it? The fourth commandment is clear, it says REMEMBER !!! If God forgot, he is not with that one anymore, if God causes the church to forget about it himself, then believe it.

Lam 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

HE did that, he caused the sabbath to be forgotten in the church (Zion = Church in Heb 12:22) when he took away the Jewish Temple. No wonder we don't care for the 4th com anymore, it is the Lord's doing and he is awesome. If we cared for the 4th commandment, we would be careful to follow it in accordance to the law.

7 Things that the law forbids us to do on Sabbath days:

We can not prepare food (cook or bake, Exo 16:23).
We can not light a fire (Exo 35:3), so forget BBQs, if you want to keep the Sabbath.
We can not buy or sell (Neh 10:31; Neh 13:15-19)
We can not carry a anything heavy (Neh 13:15-19, Jer 17:22-23)
We can not travel (leave or enter a city, Exo 16:29; Neh 13:15-19; Act 1:12)
We can not do any kind of work (Exo 20:10; Mat 12:5; John 5:17-18)
We can not pay anyone to do those things for us (Lev 25:6)
Besides that, we also have to work 6 days a week, not 5 (Exo 20:9).

The church does not care anymore for any of that.... as it was foretold by the Lord.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 20th 2010, 01:16 PM
We have a gas stove. I cooked breakfast today (my wife cooked too). In doing so, we broke the Sabbath commandment written in Exo 16:23 (do not bake or cook on Sabbath days) and we also broke the one on Exo 35:3 (do not light a fire throughout your habitations on Sabbath days). We already broke the one about do not work on Sabbath days (Exo 20:10), cooking is work. And last Sunday, I did not work at all. I did no manner of work that day. The Sabbath commandment states clearly that I am supposed to work 6 days a week. If I worked only 5 days this week, I broke the Sabbath commandment. I did that on purpose to please the Lord, to show him I got the point about John 5:16-18 and Rom 7:4. I do that on purpose to show him I got the point about Mat 12:1-6. I got the point that the Sabbath was something that was made for me (like my shoes, my pajamas, my car, and my house). It was not made for God. And there is not one once of guilt in me for cooking today on the fire stove.

Some Christians gathered as a congregation to offer the Lord a service on Sunday morning, before they served their boss or anyone else. Some feel the need to do it on Sabbath day to please the Lord. God said we are all accepted by Him (when we come to worship him) and we should not judge anyone based on which day we select to gather as a community to praise the Lord.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 20th 2010, 01:31 PM
<<Can God break His own law? No,>>

God created the law of gravity. Jesus broke that law when he walked on water and when the Israelites crossed the red sea with the waters as a wall to the right and the left (Exo 14:22,29).

God created the first law of thermodynamics (the amount of matter/energy in the universe is constant, it can not be reduced or eliminated and it cannot increase). Basically, we can not create something out of nothing. Jesus broke that law when he healed people without a limb and when he fed the 5,000 men with a handful of fish and bread.

Only the creator of the laws of nature is above the laws of nature, no one else. That is why when the religious people saw him working on the day of rest and questioned him regarding "who do you think you are, breaking the Sabbath (rest) of God"? Jesus answered: I AM the Lord of the Sabbath! He is the Lord of gravity and he is the Lord of Thermodynamics.

We do not question the Lord when he breaks his own laws, the law-maker is above his laws. He is indeed the LORD OF THE SABBATHS. TO THE LORD OF HOSTS BELONGS PRAISE AND GLORY, DOMINIOM, HONOR AND STRENGTH BELONGS TO HIM, SLOW TO ANGER, FAST TO FORGIVE, POWERFUL ENOUGH TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE WITH THE WORD OF HIS MOUTH AND THERE IS NOTHING TOO DIFFICULT FOR HIM. AND ALL HIS SAINTS SHOUT AMEN!

Shalom

David Taylor
Mar 21st 2010, 01:01 PM
Thanks for participating in another Sabbath thread.
Stay tuned, another one just like it pops up every few weeks.