PDA

View Full Version : What's The Difference?



Firstfruits
Mar 13th 2010, 04:00 PM
With regards to the following scriptures concerning the collection for the poor saints, what is the difference between the collection of the saints and tithing?

1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

2 Corinthians 9:1-13
1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

God bless!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Mar 13th 2010, 05:02 PM
With regards to the following scriptures concerning the collection for the poor saints, what is the difference between the collection of the saints and tithing?

1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

2 Corinthians 9:1-13
1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

God bless!

Firstfruits

From my understanding there was famine in Judea and Paul was taking up a collection fo those saints as he traveled to other cities.

Servant89
Mar 13th 2010, 06:02 PM
With regards to the following scriptures concerning the collection for the poor saints, what is the difference between the collection of the saints and tithing?

1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

2 Corinthians 9:1-13
1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

God bless!

Firstfruits

The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)

1. Only land owners (farmers) that were growing crops or raising cattle had to tithe. People that did not own land could not tithe. The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock like lambs, sheep, goats, etc.. (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37; Neh 13:5,12). The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe. When Peter caught 153 fishes (John 21:11), he owed nothing as tithe offering because it is the tithe of the land, not the sea.
2. Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income. According to the law of Moses, money was not accepted by God as a tithe offering.
3. The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance, they had the Lord as their inheritance.
4. Tithing was also given to the poor and needy (widows, orphans, newcomers to the land). Tithing was part of God’s welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). To ask the poor to tithe is exactly the opposite of what God established in His Word.
5. The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29). The Levites will then bring the tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem.
6. The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,11,18; Deu 14:23).
7. If the Jews lived too far from Jerusalem, they were allowed to turn their agricultural products (their tithe) into money (to eliminate traveling with produce and animals). But once they arrived at Jerusalem, they had to turn the money into agricultural products before bringing the offering to God because God did not accept money as a tithing offering. The reason was so that the tithing offering could be eaten before the Lord in his Temple. (Deu 14:24-26).
8. Because they had to bring their tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem, God did not make it a burden to those living far away from Jerusalem, to travel every week or every month to bring the tithe. Instead, he told the Israelites that they had to bring their tithes once every 3 years. That year was called the year of tithing (see Deu 14:28; Deu 26:12; Amos 4:4).
9. If the people failed to bring in their tithes in the year of tithing, they were commanded by the law to bring them back the next year of tithing (3 years later) with 20 percent interest. To be financially accurate, twenty percent interest every 3 years translates to 6.3 % interest per year or 0.12 % interest per week. It is not 20% interest added the next Sunday after someone missed the offering.
10. The tithe or the 10th part of the agricultural products in Israel belonged to the Lord. It really belonged to him because man put the seed on the ground, but it was the Lord that made it grow. The Lord did most of the work. That is why he considered it robbery not to give Him his part. He had earned it. The Lord in turn, gave what belonged to him to the Levite and the poor. (Lev 27:30; Num 18:24; Deu 26:12; Neh 13:5; Mal 3:8-10).
11. The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32).
12. The Law of God required the Levites to give a tenth of the tithes that they received back unto the Lord. (Num 18:26). This had to be the best of the tithe and the Levite had to give it to the priests that ministered in the Temple (for their consumption).
13. When God gave Moses the law of tithing, he stated clearly Deuteronomy chapter 12, that the law of tithing should not be changed based on human reasoning (see verses 8 & 32). The law of tithing should not be changed even if the new application of the tithing law looks right in our own eyes.

Because the Temple is no longer in place in Jerusalem and there are no Levites running a priesthood anymore, the laws connected with the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer in effect. That is why the Jews do not kill a lamb during Passover, no one offers animals for sin offerings, there are no more animal sacrifices. Those laws are gone with the Temple and the priesthood. The law of tithing is part of that group. Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13 and 1 Jo 3:4 say that where there is no law, there is no transgression, and sin cannot be inputted where there is no law. Because of that, since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood disappeared, no one is robbing God of anything when people fail to bring their tithes (their agricultural products to the Levites in the Temple). Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 and Eph 2:15 reiterate that Jesus removed those laws when he was nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace.

The current law of tithing preached in today’s protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible. That is a commandment of man. God said in Mat 15 and Mar 7 that our heart is far from God and our worship is in vain when we teach as doctrines commandments of men.

Shalom

BadDog
Mar 13th 2010, 09:04 PM
We are not implored or commanded to tithe in the NT. That was OT teaching, IOT support one of the 13 tribes, which was the Levites, who served the Lord through sacrifices, etc. Christ has died for us. All giving we see in the NT was collections for needs, such as with the Jerusalem church. We should share with those by whom we are taught (Galatians 6:6 The one who is taught the message must share all good things with the teacher.). We should also contribute toward the elders (leaders) in our churches as shown in 1 Timothy 5:17, 18 (The elders who are good leaders should be considered worthy of an ample honorarium, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says: You must not muzzle an ox that is threshing grain, and, The laborer is worthy of his wages.) Just before that text it spoke about supporting widows in the body, while this text just refers to helping out elders. The widows should be fully supported if they have no family members to do so.

But the idea of church "members" supporting a sophisticated church structure is not found in the NT. Doesn't mean it is wrong to support our local church, of course, but tithing is not commanded at all in the NT. Perhaps it could be viewed as a good example to follow, but it is simply OT, Levitical priesthood stuff. Here's the NT principle for giving:
2 Corinthians 9:6, 7 Remember this: the person who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the person who sows generously will also reap generously. Each person should do as he has decided in his heart-not with reluctance or out of compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

If anyone is interested in what the NT teaches on this, they should start by carefully studying 2 Corinthians chapters 8 and 9.

Of course we are challenged in the NT, as well as the OT, to give liberally. But you should not feel guilty for not "tithing." BTW, tithing in the OT was never with money. It was with the animals for sacrifice, as well as grain. The priests took some of the offerings for food for their families, as specified in Leviticus. Of course, we live in a much different world now, and we have full-time ministry teams in our churches whom we ask to work in our church bodies. If we reap benefits from them, we should help them out, according to Galatians 6:6. But that is simply a logical derivation from Galatians, while supporting widows and the poor in our bodies is commanded in James and 1 Timothy.

But we are simply not under the tithing system anymore... unless some of you think we should start up the Levitical sacrificial system again, after God tore the curtain in the temple from top to bottom and stopped the sacrificial system completely in 70AD when he sovereignly allowed Titus to wipe out the city and destroy the temple--which has never since been rebuilt. :D In a way, it shows a great disrespect for Christ's finished sacrifice on the cross in our behalf, if you think about it.

We should generously support those who serve Christ, but let's not call it a tithe. Christ is our Priest now-after the order of Melchisedek.

BD

BadDog
Mar 14th 2010, 12:39 AM
Firstfruits,

Good observation about those two texts. Most people just assume that the Bible teaches us to give only (or mainly) to our local churches, when it says much more about giving to the poor and widows.

BD

Firstfruits
Mar 14th 2010, 10:33 AM
The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)

1. Only land owners (farmers) that were growing crops or raising cattle had to tithe. People that did not own land could not tithe. The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock like lambs, sheep, goats, etc.. (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37; Neh 13:5,12). The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe. When Peter caught 153 fishes (John 21:11), he owed nothing as tithe offering because it is the tithe of the land, not the sea.
2. Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income. According to the law of Moses, money was not accepted by God as a tithe offering.
3. The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance, they had the Lord as their inheritance.
4. Tithing was also given to the poor and needy (widows, orphans, newcomers to the land). Tithing was part of God’s welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). To ask the poor to tithe is exactly the opposite of what God established in His Word.
5. The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29). The Levites will then bring the tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem.
6. The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,11,18; Deu 14:23).
7. If the Jews lived too far from Jerusalem, they were allowed to turn their agricultural products (their tithe) into money (to eliminate traveling with produce and animals). But once they arrived at Jerusalem, they had to turn the money into agricultural products before bringing the offering to God because God did not accept money as a tithing offering. The reason was so that the tithing offering could be eaten before the Lord in his Temple. (Deu 14:24-26).
8. Because they had to bring their tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem, God did not make it a burden to those living far away from Jerusalem, to travel every week or every month to bring the tithe. Instead, he told the Israelites that they had to bring their tithes once every 3 years. That year was called the year of tithing (see Deu 14:28; Deu 26:12; Amos 4:4).
9. If the people failed to bring in their tithes in the year of tithing, they were commanded by the law to bring them back the next year of tithing (3 years later) with 20 percent interest. To be financially accurate, twenty percent interest every 3 years translates to 6.3 % interest per year or 0.12 % interest per week. It is not 20% interest added the next Sunday after someone missed the offering.
10. The tithe or the 10th part of the agricultural products in Israel belonged to the Lord. It really belonged to him because man put the seed on the ground, but it was the Lord that made it grow. The Lord did most of the work. That is why he considered it robbery not to give Him his part. He had earned it. The Lord in turn, gave what belonged to him to the Levite and the poor. (Lev 27:30; Num 18:24; Deu 26:12; Neh 13:5; Mal 3:8-10).
11. The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32).
12. The Law of God required the Levites to give a tenth of the tithes that they received back unto the Lord. (Num 18:26). This had to be the best of the tithe and the Levite had to give it to the priests that ministered in the Temple (for their consumption).
13. When God gave Moses the law of tithing, he stated clearly Deuteronomy chapter 12, that the law of tithing should not be changed based on human reasoning (see verses 8 & 32). The law of tithing should not be changed even if the new application of the tithing law looks right in our own eyes.

Because the Temple is no longer in place in Jerusalem and there are no Levites running a priesthood anymore, the laws connected with the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer in effect. That is why the Jews do not kill a lamb during Passover, no one offers animals for sin offerings, there are no more animal sacrifices. Those laws are gone with the Temple and the priesthood. The law of tithing is part of that group. Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13 and 1 Jo 3:4 say that where there is no law, there is no transgression, and sin cannot be inputted where there is no law. Because of that, since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood disappeared, no one is robbing God of anything when people fail to bring their tithes (their agricultural products to the Levites in the Temple). Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 and Eph 2:15 reiterate that Jesus removed those laws when he was nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace.

The current law of tithing preached in today’s protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible. That is a commandment of man. God said in Mat 15 and Mar 7 that our heart is far from God and our worship is in vain when we teach as doctrines commandments of men.

Shalom

Thank you Servant89,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 14th 2010, 10:37 AM
We are not implored or commanded to tithe in the NT. That was OT teaching, IOT support one of the 13 tribes, which was the Levites, who served the Lord through sacrifices, etc. Christ has died for us. All giving we see in the NT was collections for needs, such as with the Jerusalem church. We should share with those by whom we are taught (Galatians 6:6 The one who is taught the message must share all good things with the teacher.). We should also contribute toward the elders (leaders) in our churches as shown in 1 Timothy 5:17, 18 (The elders who are good leaders should be considered worthy of an ample honorarium, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says: You must not muzzle an ox that is threshing grain, and, The laborer is worthy of his wages.) Just before that text it spoke about supporting widows in the body, while this text just refers to helping out elders. The widows should be fully supported if they have no family members to do so.

But the idea of church "members" supporting a sophisticated church structure is not found in the NT. Doesn't mean it is wrong to support our local church, of course, but tithing is not commanded at all in the NT. Perhaps it could be viewed as a good example to follow, but it is simply OT, Levitical priesthood stuff. Here's the NT principle for giving:
2 Corinthians 9:6, 7 Remember this: the person who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the person who sows generously will also reap generously. Each person should do as he has decided in his heart-not with reluctance or out of compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

If anyone is interested in what the NT teaches on this, they should start by carefully studying 2 Corinthians chapters 8 and 9.

Of course we are challenged in the NT, as well as the OT, to give liberally. But you should not feel guilty for not "tithing." BTW, tithing in the OT was never with money. It was with the animals for sacrifice, as well as grain. The priests took some of the offerings for food for their families, as specified in Leviticus. Of course, we live in a much different world now, and we have full-time ministry teams in our churches whom we ask to work in our church bodies. If we reap benefits from them, we should help them out, according to Galatians 6:6. But that is simply a logical derivation from Galatians, while supporting widows and the poor in our bodies is commanded in James and 1 Timothy.

But we are simply not under the tithing system anymore... unless some of you think we should start up the Levitical sacrificial system again, after God tore the curtain in the temple from top to bottom and stopped the sacrificial system completely in 70AD when he sovereignly allowed Titus to wipe out the city and destroy the temple--which has never since been rebuilt. :D In a way, it shows a great disrespect for Christ's finished sacrifice on the cross in our behalf, if you think about it.

We should generously support those who serve Christ, but let's not call it a tithe. Christ is our Priest now-after the order of Melchisedek.

BD

Thanks Baddog,

Why do we confuse tithing with the collection for the saints?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 14th 2010, 10:39 AM
From my understanding there was famine in Judea and Paul was taking up a collection fo those saints as he traveled to other cities.

According to Paul we are to remember the poor, as we have been taught, so has this changed?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 14th 2010, 10:41 AM
Firstfruits,

Good observation about those two texts. Most people just assume that the Bible teaches us to give only (or mainly) to our local churches, when it says much more about giving to the poor and widows.

BD

Would it be fair to say that we are more likely to be taught about tithing rather than ministering to the saints?

Firstfruits

BadDog
Mar 14th 2010, 10:03 PM
Would it be fair to say that we are more likely to be taught about tithing rather than ministering to the saints?

Firstfruits
:P I think it would be very fair. I also would add that any church that speaks regularly about money, and not as much about serving and discipling the body, something is sadly out of balance.


Why do we confuse tithing with the collection for the saints?

Firstfruits
Good question. I suppose because leadership may see a financial need, and have trouble trusting God with it, and instead put pressure on the sheep and manipulate them. I know that sounds callous, but I am tired of such abuse. I'm sure it is not easy when financial pressure comes up in the board meetings, and I have been a part of such meetings. But let's not apply OT theology to the NT church.

Take care,

BD

Firstfruits
Mar 15th 2010, 01:26 PM
:P I think it would be very fair. I also would add that any church that speaks regularly about money, and not as much about serving and discipling the body, something is sadly out of balance.


Good question. I suppose because leadership may see a financial need, and have trouble trusting God with it, and instead put pressure on the sheep and manipulate them. I know that sounds callous, but I am tired of such abuse. I'm sure it is not easy when financial pressure comes up in the board meetings, and I have been a part of such meetings. But let's not apply OT theology to the NT church.

Take care,

BD

Thanks BadDog,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 15th 2010, 07:21 PM
Is God more likely to remember our ministering to the saints or tithing?

Scriptures please!!!

Firstfruits

Ta-An
Mar 15th 2010, 08:35 PM
Is God more likely to remember our ministering to the saints or tithing?

Scriptures please!!!
Firstfruits
Will this verse do??
Mt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Servant89
Mar 15th 2010, 10:34 PM
Is God more likely to remember our ministering to the saints or tithing?

Scriptures please!!!

Firstfruits

He will definetively remember more our ministering to the saints than how well we keep a commandment of men. God's law of tithing passed away with the Temple. Ministering to the saints comes with a promise from God.

Mt 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Shalom

Firstfruits
Mar 16th 2010, 09:02 AM
Will this verse do??
Mt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Thank you Ta-An,

Yes, that then refers to ministering to the saints.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 16th 2010, 09:03 AM
He will definetively remember more our ministering to the saints than how well we keep a commandment of men. God's law of tithing passed away with the Temple. Ministering to the saints comes with a promise from God.

Mt 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Shalom

Thank you Servant89,

Agreed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firefighter
Mar 16th 2010, 03:59 PM
Why do we confuse tithing with the collection for the saints?

How else do you expect us to afford lavish temples made with hands complete with a daycare center and a family life center??? Silly, silly man... :D

Firstfruits
Mar 16th 2010, 04:19 PM
How else do you expect us to afford lavish temples made with hands complete with a daycare center and a family life center??? Silly, silly man... :D

Thanks Urban Missionary,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 16th 2010, 04:22 PM
According to the following scripture ministering to the saints accompanies salvation.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Is there anywhere in the scriptures that say that tithing also accompanies salvation?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 17th 2010, 09:10 PM
With the understanding that the disciples taught ministering to the saints and not tithing, why do we teach what they did not teach?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 18th 2010, 04:32 PM
According to the following scripture ministering to the saints shows our subjection to the gospel of Christ. Would it be fair to say that tithing shows subjection to the law of Moses?

2 Cor 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:

2 Cor 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

2 Cor 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

God bless!

Firstfruits

watchinginawe
Mar 18th 2010, 06:14 PM
Abraham and Jacob gave tithes before there was ever properly an Israel and thus Levites or the Law. Some look upon the tithe as merely a tax imposed on Israel to support the Levites which did not receive a possession of land. But it is more than that IMO. Consider the following passage:

I Samuel 2:12 Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD.

13 And the priest's custom with the people was, that, when any man offered sacrifice, the priest's servant came, while the flesh was in seething, with a fleshhook of three teeth in his hand;

14 And he struck it into the pan, or kettle, or caldron, or pot; all that the fleshhook brought up the priest took for himself. So they did in Shiloh unto all the Israelites that came thither.

15 Also before they burnt the fat, the priest's servant came, and said to the man that sacrificed, Give flesh to roast for the priest; for he will not have sodden flesh of thee, but raw.

16 And if any man said unto him, Let them not fail to burn the fat presently, and then take as much as thy soul desireth; then he would answer him, Nay; but thou shalt give it me now: and if not, I will take it by force.

17 Wherefore the sin of the young men was very great before the LORD: for men abhorred the offering of the LORD.

In the above, the sons of Eli basically managed the offerings as a tax, much like today in our government. They felt entitled to the offering and "took" it instead of "receiving" it. This caused the Israelites to "abhor the offering of the LORD". (I just know I am going to feel this way on April 15. :lol: ) But note that verse 17 says what the sons of Eli did was a very great sin before the LORD. Why? Because it made those who were to give abhor the giving. Their giving wasn't to be to the Levites, but rather their giving was to be unto the LORD. There is a lesson in there somewhere.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Mar 19th 2010, 09:40 AM
Abraham and Jacob gave tithes before there was ever properly an Israel and thus Levites or the Law. Some look upon the tithe as merely a tax imposed on Israel to support the Levites which did not receive a possession of land. But it is more than that IMO. Consider the following passage:

I Samuel 2:12 Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD.

13 And the priest's custom with the people was, that, when any man offered sacrifice, the priest's servant came, while the flesh was in seething, with a fleshhook of three teeth in his hand;

14 And he struck it into the pan, or kettle, or caldron, or pot; all that the fleshhook brought up the priest took for himself. So they did in Shiloh unto all the Israelites that came thither.

15 Also before they burnt the fat, the priest's servant came, and said to the man that sacrificed, Give flesh to roast for the priest; for he will not have sodden flesh of thee, but raw.

16 And if any man said unto him, Let them not fail to burn the fat presently, and then take as much as thy soul desireth; then he would answer him, Nay; but thou shalt give it me now: and if not, I will take it by force.

17 Wherefore the sin of the young men was very great before the LORD: for men abhorred the offering of the LORD.

In the above, the sons of Eli basically managed the offerings as a tax, much like today in our government. They felt entitled to the offering and "took" it instead of "receiving" it. This caused the Israelites to "abhor the offering of the LORD". (I just know I am going to feel this way on April 15. :lol: ) But note that verse 17 says what the sons of Eli did was a very great sin before the LORD. Why? Because it made those who were to give abhor the giving. Their giving wasn't to be to the Levites, but rather their giving was to be unto the LORD. There is a lesson in there somewhere.

God Bless!

The scriptures you have given are not referring to the Gospel of Christ as does the minitration for the saints.

Abrahams tithe was not for poor saint, it was given to a king.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

The collection for the saints is not for those that already have such as Melchisedec, but for those that do not have.

Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Firstfruits

BadDog
Mar 19th 2010, 11:24 AM
Firstfruits has hit the nail on the head, IMO watchinginawe.

And that text 1 1 Samuel 1 just shows that the priests, as was true of all of the Levites, got the food for their families from what was left-over in the sacrifices. And we should not that money was not give. Animals, or grain, was given for the sacrifices or food for the Levites. We do not see any NT precedence.

It was not precisely as tax, but the idea is not far off. Speaking of which, gotta pay a property tax bill now. :P

BD

Firstfruits
Mar 19th 2010, 02:51 PM
Firstfruits has hit the nail on the head, IMO watchinginawe.

And that text 1 1 Samuel 1 just shows that the priests, as was true of all of the Levites, got the food for their families from what was left-over in the sacrifices. And we should not that money was not give. Animals, or grain, was given for the sacrifices or food for the Levites. We do not see any NT precedence.

It was not precisely as tax, but the idea is not far off. Speaking of which, gotta pay a property tax bill now. :P

BD

Thanks BadDog,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 19th 2010, 03:00 PM
With the understanding that tithing is a tenth of what we earn, and is generaly noted when it is given, and if not given can be frowned upon. With that in mind how can we apply what Jesus has commanded in the following?

Mt 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Mt 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mt 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

Mt 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2010, 06:23 AM
The scriptures you have given are not referring to the Gospel of Christ as does the minitration for the saints.Firstfruits, I was making note first of all that tithes were given before there was a law or even Levites. It seems that there is an automatic connection of tithing to only that instituted by the Law of Moses and as an expectation. Here is Jacob's promise to God:

Genesis 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:

22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Jacob purposed this in his heart without commandment and without the necessity of Saints and without an apparent priesthood to give it unto. This was between Jacob and God.

But even so, you seem to be making distinction mostly in the purpose of the giving. BadDog adds a distinction in the kind of offering, as in grain or animals, etc. Let's explore this some.

However, before I offer more, I think I should state that I do not believe the New Testament commands a tithe. The Church is not permitted to expect and demand a tithe IMO. However, the Church might expect to receive tithes or some other proportion purposed in the heart of believers as their regular practice of giving.


Abrahams tithe was not for poor saint, it was given to a king.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

The collection for the saints is not for those that already have such as Melchisedec, but for those that do not have.Your point in the above seems to be one of value; thus Abraham's tithe being of less value than that anything given to relieve the poor. Perhaps we will return to Abraham and his tithe later, but I disagree with that notion.

But I would like to look at the scripture you offered in your original post:

I Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

There are probably at least two points in the above that come to my mind. These are frequency and proportion. Here is how the NASB and the Amplified Bible translate verse 2:

NASB
16:2 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

Amplified Bible
16:2 On the first [day] of each week, let each one of you [personally] put aside something and save it up as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given], so that no collections will need to be taken after I come.

I believe both frequency and proportion are features of the Apostle's request. Now if I decided as a believer to put aside a proportion of one tenth of that which God prospers me each week and give it on the first day of the week, then I would be tithing. That would have nothing to do with the law of Moses. Giving a tithe simply means giving a tenth. In the Old Testament, a tithe is simply a unit of measure like a fourth, a half, and a tenth. Giving the tithe was an action. Since Paul features a proportion to be given one might very reasonably conclude that a tenth is a proper proportion to give.

II Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

I think a believer should pray about the proportion and read the Bible and see if God speaks to them on the matter and then let them purpose such in their heart as their manner of giving. The Apostle Paul suggests that we will be blessed proportionately in the above. If we purpose a tenth, then so be it, we are tithing. If it is a fifth, then let it be a fifth; a twentieth, then let it be a twentieth. Regardless, a habit of giving proportionately and God blessing proportionately is proposed by the Apostle Paul IMO.


With the understanding that tithing is a tenth of what we earn, and is generaly noted when it is given, and if not given can be frowned upon.This makes the point of my previous post. You are made to abhor the offering of the Lord when what is received is not what is expected and then frowned upon. This is the error of the reciever becoming a taker. However, I don't see why a Church might not receive tithes of those who wish to give a tithe.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 08:49 AM
Firstfruits, I was making note first of all that tithes were given before there was a law or even Levites. It seems that there is an automatic connection of tithing to only that instituted by the Law of Moses and as an expectation. Here is Jacob's promise to God:

Genesis 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:

22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Jacob purposed this in his heart without commandment and without the necessity of Saints and without an apparent priesthood to give it unto. This was between Jacob and God.

But even so, you seem to be making distinction mostly in the purpose of the giving. BadDog adds a distinction in the kind of offering, as in grain or animals, etc. Let's explore this some.

However, before I offer more, I think I should state that I do not believe the New Testament commands a tithe. The Church is not permitted to expect and demand a tithe IMO. However, the Church might expect to receive tithes or some other proportion purposed in the heart of believers as their regular practice of giving.

Your point in the above seems to be one of value; thus Abraham's tithe being of less value than that anything given to relieve the poor. Perhaps we will return to Abraham and his tithe later, but I disagree with that notion.

But I would like to look at the scripture you offered in your original post:

I Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

There are probably at least two points in the above that come to my mind. These are frequency and proportion. Here is how the NASB and the Amplified Bible translate verse 2:

NASB
16:2 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

Amplified Bible
16:2 On the first [day] of each week, let each one of you [personally] put aside something and save it up as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given], so that no collections will need to be taken after I come.

I believe both frequency and proportion are features of the Apostle's request. Now if I decided as a believer to put aside a proportion of one tenth of that which God prospers me each week and give it on the first day of the week, then I would be tithing. That would have nothing to do with the law of Moses. Giving a tithe simply means giving a tenth. In the Old Testament, a tithe is simply a unit of measure like a fourth, a half, and a tenth. Giving the tithe was an action. Since Paul features a proportion to be given one might very reasonably conclude that a tenth is a proper proportion to give.

II Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

I think a believer should pray about the proportion and read the Bible and see if God speaks to them on the matter and then let them purpose such in their heart as their manner of giving. The Apostle Paul suggests that we will be blessed proportionately in the above. If we purpose a tenth, then so be it, we are tithing. If it is a fifth, then let it be a fifth; a twentieth, then let it be a twentieth. Regardless, a habit of giving proportionately and God blessing proportionately is proposed by the Apostle Paul IMO.

This makes the point of my previous post. You are made to abhor the offering of the Lord when what is received is not what is expected and then frowned upon. This is the error of the reciever becoming a taker. However, I don't see why a Church might not receive tithes of those who wish to give a tithe.

God Bless!

According to the scriptures the Disciples taught ministering to to the saints, which is in line with the gospel:

2 Cor 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

Tithing is not what is taught by the Disciples, but that we remember the poor saints. If Gods principle of tihing was followed, the church would only be paid tithes once every three years, which is the year of tithing. Why then should we expect tithes as we expect the collection for the saints?

God has made tithing law, so has Gods law changed, that it should not be as God has commanded?

Firstfruits

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2010, 02:35 PM
Tithing is not what is taught by the Disciples, but that we remember the poor saints.Giving is what is taught, in frequency and proportion to how we are blessed and according to how we so purpose in our hearts.


If Gods principle of tihing was followed, the church would only be paid tithes once every three years, which is the year of tithing. Why then should we expect tithes as we expect the collection for the saints?

God has made tithing law, so has Gods law changed, that it should not be as God has commanded?What has your study shown to be the proper proportion and frequency to give? Why is one tenth excluded as what one might purpose in their heart to give? Is one tenth too much, too burdensome? Is Paul wrong about the proportionate blessings upon the givers?

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 03:06 PM
Giving is what is taught, in frequency and proportion to how we are blessed and according to how we so purpose in our hearts.

What has your study shown to be the proper proportion and frequency to give? Why is one tenth excluded as what one might purpose in their heart to give? Is one tenth too much, too burdensome? Is Paul wrong about the proportionate blessings upon the givers?

God Bless!

If you purpose to give a tenth to the poor saints, which is ministering to the saints that is up to you but tithing in itself is specific and not by choice.

Ministering to the saints is not tithing.

2 Cor 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

We are asked to remember the poor saints, we are not asked to tithe.

Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Firstfruits

watchinginawe
Mar 23rd 2010, 03:30 PM
If you purpose to give a tenth to the poor saints, which is ministering to the saints that is up to you but tithing in itself is specific and not by choice. I have supplied scripture where tithing is by choice, but I won't belabor the point any further. It isn't my goal to be contentious.


We are asked to remember the poor saints, we are not asked to tithe.No recommendation on frequency and proportion then? You seem to be resisting an answer so I will drop it.

What do you make of I Corinthians 9? What is it that Paul proposes in verse 14? I am just wondering, this isn't a baited question. Where exactly does that come into our consideration?

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:27 PM
I have supplied scripture where tithing is by choice, but I won't belabor the point any further. It isn't my goal to be contentious.

No recommendation on frequency and proportion then? You seem to be resisting an answer so I will drop it.

What do you make of I Corinthians 9? What is it that Paul proposes in verse 14? I am just wondering, this isn't a baited question. Where exactly does that come into our consideration?

God Bless!

1 Corinthians 9 is concerning ministering to the saints. They were commanded to travel with nothing other than the clothes on their backs, according to what is written Paul did not want it done to him.

If there is a need for a brother or sister and we can help, then we help as we can. It is our choice how we help the poor saints. It is not tithing, however if you choose to give a tenth to the ministering of the saints, it is not tithing, it is ministering to the saints.

Firtfruits