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crossnote
Mar 14th 2010, 01:56 AM
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Rom 8:14)

Is this 'leading' ultimately irresistible, or is it cooperative?
Is it something the Holy Spirit effectively does to us despite ourselves or is it a leading by the Spirit contingent on our cooperation?

Sirus
Mar 14th 2010, 02:01 AM
"contingent on our cooperation"

scripture says we have to believe and continue believing
the only other option is to believe for a while and fall away -Jesus' words not mine

Crosstalk
Mar 14th 2010, 02:34 AM
I always thought that this verse coincided with 2 Cor. 5:17 in that we are now cooperating with the Holy Spirit in our changed lives. I think that Romans 8:7 helps to put this in perspective.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." Note those last four words.

So then this is just more assurance to the believer that one is converted when we have the Holy Spirit and desire the same things as Him. Romans 8:16 also points to this assurance.

John's first epistle is a good study in this kind of assurance.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 14th 2010, 02:39 AM
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Rom 8:14)

Is this 'leading' ultimately irresistible, or is it cooperative?
Is it something the Holy Spirit effectively does to us despite ourselves or is it a leading by the Spirit contingent on our cooperation?

I'll answer your question with a question: Was the leading of the pillar of cloud and fire through the wilderness irresistible, or was it cooperative?

Brother Mark
Mar 14th 2010, 02:48 AM
I think the warning to believers in Hebrews suggest it is co-operative.

Heb 12:14-15

14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
NASU

Some believers fall short of the grace that has been given to us because we get bitter during times of discipline instead of growing. But that's not where the story stops. The clay is often crushed and made into a new vessel when it is marred in the hands of the Potter. (Note... the Potter does not mar the clay.) The Lord will complete the work he started, yet do we not have some control over how long the work will take? The temple in the OT was destroyed when rebellion set in. Will God not raise up a destroyer for a modern day temple when it rebels so that the spirit will be saved (1 Cor. 5)?

Grace to you,

Mark

crossnote
Mar 14th 2010, 09:05 AM
I was just wondering because the verb 'led' is in the passive voice (direct object is the passive recepient). Louw-Nida has it this way...

36.1 ἡγέομαιb; προί̈σταμαιa; κατευθύνω; φέρωd; ἄγωd: to so influence others as to cause them to follow a recommended course of action—‘to guide, to direct, to lead.’ἡγέομαιb : γινέσθω … ὁ ἡγούμενος ὡς ὁ διακονῶν ‘he who takes the lead must be like the one who serves’ or ‘he who is the master must be like one who serves’ Lk
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.). New York: United Bible societies.

...yet many commentaries agree with the posters above stating it is more of a cooperative package. Perhaps it is well pictured with a strong ox yoked with an inexperienced one, where the young one can pull wayward, yet the stronger more experienced one will prevail?

roaring tiger
Mar 14th 2010, 11:35 AM
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Rom 8:14)

Is this 'leading' ultimately irresistible, or is it cooperative?
Is it something the Holy Spirit effectively does to us despite ourselves or is it a leading by the Spirit contingent on our cooperation?

Hi111crossnote greetings;
contigent on our cooperation.Gal.5:18,22-25 But ifye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
V.22]But the fruit of Spirit is love ,joy ,peace,longsuffering,gentleness,goodness,faith,mee kness,
temperance;against such there is no law.
v.24And they that are Christ,s have crucified the flesh with affection and lust.
v.25] If we live in the Spirit,let us also walk in Spirit.
Thanks and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Scruffy Kid
Mar 14th 2010, 01:28 PM
Dear crossnote,
Thanks for this wonderful question!!

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Rom 8:14)

Is this 'leading' ultimately irresistible, or is it cooperative?
Is it something the Holy Spirit effectively does to us despite ourselves or is it a leading by the Spirit contingent on our cooperation?
I'd like to look at the passage from 8:6-21, which I think supplies helpful context.

To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.

So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. (I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.)

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

I'd love to spend a good deal of time on the passage in light of your helpful and illuminating question, but can't right now.

A few quick observations

The emphasis in the passage upon the contrast of Spirit and flesh emphasizes that the spirit brings freedom (and life), the flesh slavery (and death). (Cf. II Cor. 3:17)

The emphasis in the subsection from which 8:14 -- the verse you asked about -- is on our being children of God, sons of God -- in loving familial relationship with Him.

Paul is exhorting, urging, the Romans to live in the Spirit, which (one might argue) would, on his showing, make little sense if they were not in the Spirit (they'd not have the power), but also little sense if the Spirit left them no choice. It seems to me that each of these suggests a cooperative relationship.

Sirus
Mar 14th 2010, 02:25 PM
I was just wondering because the verb 'led' is in the passive voice (direct object is the passive recepient). Louw-Nida has it this way...

36.1 ἡγέομαιb; προί̈σταμαιa; κατευθύνω; φέρωd; ἄγωd: to so influence others as to cause them to follow a recommended course of action—‘to guide, to direct, to lead.’ἡγέομαιb : γινέσθω … ὁ ἡγούμενος ὡς ὁ διακονῶν ‘he who takes the lead must be like the one who serves’ or ‘he who is the master must be like one who serves’ Lk
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.). New York: United Bible societies.

...yet many commentaries agree with the posters above stating it is more of a cooperative package. Perhaps it is well pictured with a strong ox yoked with an inexperienced one, where the young one can pull wayward, yet the stronger more experienced one will prevail?Here's how I see -led by the Spirit

It includes all that is before. Romans 1-3, 4-5, 6-8. It is the gospel of Grace. Jesus said He would send the Spirit of truth to lead and guide them into all truth and things to come. That being the things He had not told them because they could not bear them -John 16:12-- (Joh 14:17, Joh 15:26, Joh 16:13).

Same here

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
.............
.....
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
To understand 8:14 you have to understand the proceeding climactic summation of all that is before chapter 8 -the gospel.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
So to be led by the Spirit IMO is to be led by the truth, led by the gospel, led by the cross. This does not take away the working of the Spirit in our lives. This IS how the Spirit works in our lives. We don't pray for power, that's futile, instead we believe in what has already been done in the cross because it is finished and we are complete in Him, and then the power comes.

The idea is that the cross of Christ is so powerful and God has made it so easy (yoke/burden) for us, that it is so freeing -liberty- law of the Spirit of life, we can't help (do not want to do otherwise) but to follow the faith -Christianity- established by our captain. Php 3:7-16.

Longsufferer
Mar 14th 2010, 02:31 PM
It is all dependant upon us, whether we are minding the Spirit, or minding the flesh as told in verse five. It is the difference seen in (Rom 6:18&20), depending which we volunteer to serve.

Firstfruits
Mar 14th 2010, 02:41 PM
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Rom 8:14)

Is this 'leading' ultimately irresistible, or is it cooperative?
Is it something the Holy Spirit effectively does to us despite ourselves or is it a leading by the Spirit contingent on our cooperation?

It is cooperative, as we have to follow the Spirit and walk in newness of life.

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 15th 2010, 06:26 PM
Prior to being Born Again...

does the Holy Ghost have any application in the sinners life? is He working at all in the sinners life?

no man can come to Jesus Except the Father draw them. and this person is drawn to the LORD by the Work of the Holy Ghost...

now someobody who doesnt 'know' God.. how can that person 'cooperatively' work together with the Holy Ghost and be 'led' to the LORD... or 'led' of the LORD...

I believe the Holy Ghost.. the Spirit of Life.. is the one in the lead......

and after One is Saved... he/she recognizes the Spirit of God in their Lives.. and the Spirit of Truth.. as He 'leads' and guides the person in every day life.... and they work together....

but the HOly Ghost has the 'lead'...

look to James..

when one starts to get off Track..

the Spirit of Truth in that person... He 'wants' you to be led in the things of the LORD..

the Spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?.... James goes on to say>. do you think this saying is in vain... its NOT...

I've seen it in my own life.. as I got started to get off track again.. the Spirit of Truth rising up in me.. to lead me and direct me back into His Will... and He prompts me... He directly in the lead.. as He guides me back thru His Word... and I"m led 'back' into the things of God.. or to continue in them.... this as the Word of God is Hid in my heart... as the adversary comes along tempting and enticing.. to quit or change plans or maybe just do this other thing..

'You've overcome them little children, BECAUSE Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the World..

Its the HOly Ghost that takes the Lead... and He leads the Children of God... as they are 'led' into and the thru the Things of God.. God Himself has ordained for them...
--------------------------------------------------------------------

here is a teaching that Jesus taught...

let this sink down into your ears...


... The Wind blows where it bloweth.. and ye cannot tell from whence it came.. or whither it goes....

So is everyone that is Born of the Spirit....

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 15th 2010, 06:30 PM
I'll answer your question with a question: Was the leading of the pillar of cloud and fire through the wilderness irresistible, or was it cooperative?

A very good question and analagy!

what are your thoughts? irresistable or cooperative?

Nihil Obstat
Mar 15th 2010, 06:32 PM
A very good question and analagy!

what are your thoughts? irresistable or cooperative?

Cooperative, for sure.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 15th 2010, 06:34 PM
Cooperative, for sure.

Thats what I thought... thanks...

crossnote
Mar 15th 2010, 11:45 PM
Now I did use the words ultimately irresistible. Meaning that yes, we can resist God's leading but ultimately, He will have His way. Maybe viewed from this angle both views can be reconciled. Sort of like God grants us a cooperative sonship but ultimately His leading will win the day?

CRJarvis
Mar 16th 2010, 02:04 AM
I always thought that this verse coincided with 2 Cor. 5:17 in that we are now cooperating with the Holy Spirit in our changed lives. I think that Romans 8:7 helps to put this in perspective.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." Note those last four words.

So then this is just more assurance to the believer that one is converted when we have the Holy Spirit and desire the same things as Him. Romans 8:16 also points to this assurance.

John's first epistle is a good study in this kind of assurance.

KJV Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Scruffy Kid
Mar 16th 2010, 02:51 AM
Well, the respect to the OP, another verse from Philippians 2, which comes immediately after the Christological Hymn (Phil. 2:5-11), is also of great relevance for the question:

Because of all this, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not in my presence only but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work according to His good pleasure.