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TheAnswer99
Mar 14th 2010, 04:04 AM
I'm still trying to understand the relationship between the OT and NT

Were all the laws from the OT wiped out?

Is God not consistent with his laws? I find it strange that God would tell us that adulterers should be put to death, yet in the NT, there is no mention of putting people to death for these acts

Brother Mark
Mar 14th 2010, 04:21 AM
Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NASU

The curse of the law has been removed. But even in the OT, the penalties were not always carried out. David was a murderer and an adulterer but God did not have him killed. God is compassionate.

Matt 9:10-13

10 Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?" 12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
NASU

Also, mercy was a major part of the law.

Matt 23:23-24

23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
NASU

Amos_with_goats
Mar 14th 2010, 04:34 AM
I'm still trying to understand the relationship between the OT and NT

Were all the laws from the OT wiped out?

Is God not consistent with his laws? I find it strange that God would tell us that adulterers should be put to death, yet in the NT, there is no mention of putting people to death for these acts

There is no change in intent. The change is in appliation. The Law was 'imposed on' rather then saught and accepted.

When I seek to confess and turn from my sin it is forgiven. THis is not a 'trite' process.... I am, in a very real way, "putting to death" that thing within me. In the days before it was about what we could get away with... now it is what we are free from.

Kill the old man. Kill him... give him no chance, leave him no escape..... there is nothing here for him but death anyway.

No change.

Radagast
Mar 14th 2010, 05:08 AM
Is God not consistent with his laws? I find it strange that God would tell us that adulterers should be put to death, yet in the NT, there is no mention of putting people to death for these acts

There is indeed a mention, in John 8:2-11. But that indicates that Jesus doesn't think we should do that:

At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

JohnDB
Mar 14th 2010, 11:15 AM
Mostly because the Messiah has come...the Seed of the Woman. Abraham's Shield, the Seed of David.

This race of people were to be especially holy/pure for they were a nation of priests to God.
Part of this purity meant that they had specific guidelines to follow in order to show they they had faith in God's promises of the Messiah to come.

Many of the cultures surrounding Israel and even Israel itself at times had a rather unstable record. Many of the cultures surrounding Israel disappeared. They don't exist today....but Judaism and Jews still exist don't they? Mostly because of their holy nature. None of the other surrounding cultures can claim this. In the midst of a region of the world where Mustim religion is foremost there exists this one island of Judaism.

kinda unique eh?

God said it and it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not...it simply is going to be that way.

Firefighter
Mar 14th 2010, 06:04 PM
Because mankind would have died out by now...;)

Jesus made it a matter of the heart, not just the pelvis. I do not know if there is a man alive that has not lusted at one time or another.

daughter
Mar 14th 2010, 06:19 PM
I'm still trying to understand the relationship between the OT and NT

Were all the laws from the OT wiped out?

Is God not consistent with his laws? I find it strange that God would tell us that adulterers should be put to death, yet in the NT, there is no mention of putting people to death for these acts
The Old Testament Law makes it clear that God's judgement on sin is that "the soul that sins dies." Before Christ came people lived under the Law, and we saw acted out the spiritual truth, that those who sin die.

What you need to understand is that we are now living in a time when we can be saved from eternal destruction... as long as you are alive you can be saved by running to Jesus, Who already died for your sins. But if you die in your sin, then you will suffer eternal destruction in hell. The soul that sins will die... eternally and without end. If you die without Christ there will be nobody to take the burden of your sin but you yourself, and then you'll know what death truly is... eternal damnation.

So, the law remains the same. The difference after Christ is that you have an escape route... but only while you live.

You need to get right now, because the consequences of sin are so serious. That truth is just as obvious in the Old as in the New Testament, and there's only one way to be spared the death penalty.

Radagast
Mar 14th 2010, 09:29 PM
I'm still trying to understand the relationship between the OT and NT

Were all the laws from the OT wiped out?

The short answer is yes, because they were a temporary thing, intended, as Paul says, as a teacher. "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." (Galatians 3:23-25) The KJV here has "the law was our schoolmaster."

The ten commandments remain, as a set of principles, which Jesus taught us to view in a very strict way: "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment." (Matt 5:21-22) and "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matt 5:27-28)

If we stoned all the men who looked lustfully at other women, there would not be a lot of men left.

TheAnswer99
Mar 15th 2010, 06:24 AM
Thanks for the explanations and responses

I'm confused, though, about something else: 1 or 2 people commented in another thread, that if we were a truly Christian nation, we would be putting homosexuals to death, but since we are a constitutional Republic we don't. Is this a false statement?

Some of you seem to be suggesting that the death penalty (carried out by humans) is no longer valid...at least for adultery...but are there crimes it is valid for?

Radagast
Mar 15th 2010, 07:27 AM
1 or 2 people commented in another thread, that if we were a truly Christian nation, we would be putting homosexuals to death

That is completely incorrect. Nowhere does the New Testament suggest that we should do that.


Some of you seem to be suggesting that the death penalty (carried out by humans) is no longer valid...at least for adultery...but are there crimes it is valid for?

The New Testament supports the rights of governments to apply the death penalty. Romans 13:1-7 says:

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

In a monarchy, the question "what crimes is the death penalty appropriate for?" is up to the king. In a democracy, it's up to the citizens. If the citizens are Christians, they naturally use Christian principles in guiding their vote. Different Christians will have different points of view on this.

The Mighty Sword
Mar 15th 2010, 06:05 PM
Why Are Adulterers No Longer Executed?

Because adulterers don't execute adulterers.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 15th 2010, 06:50 PM
Under the Law.. they were suppose to be stoned...

look at the woman who was caught in the act of adultery... the Scribes and Pharisees brought her to Jesus... seeking an answer from Him and to trap Him in His Words... Under the Law she was suppose to be stoned....

Christ HImself showed Mercy and Compassion on her..

and He turned the situation back on the Pharisees.. asking them to look at themselves and the first one who was without sin.. let him cast the first stone... what did they do?

everyone of them was convicted in their 'conscience'.. and put their rocks down and walked off..


Jesus asked the Adulteress as she was sitting on the ground waiting to be stoned..

Woman, where are those thine accusers? are they not here?

she said 'no'..

Jesus Said... 'Niether do I condemn thee, go and sin no more'...

Jesus had compassion and mercy on the woman... allowing her not to die by being stoned..

He was her Best Advocate... and she went away unharmed.

Why would someobody Today.. want to 'kill' or 'execute' adulterers... when looking at what Jesus did in the NT?

Its in the Hands of God to 'judge' those.. He is the Only One Worthy...

If one is Following Christ.. they will not be executing 'adulterers'... but telling them about What Christ did for one in the NT.. telling them about the Good News Of Jesus Christ.. His Mercy and Grace.. and What He has done for them.. at Calvary..

nebula_omega
Mar 15th 2010, 07:00 PM
There's also an historical context. Remember, Israel in the NT was ruled by the Romans. They had final say on whether anyone was executed. Those priests probably would have been in a heap of trouble if they defied Roman authority and executed someone, even if it was just an adulterous woman.

Ta-An
Mar 15th 2010, 09:04 PM
Because mankind would have died out by now...;)

.Exactly...... how many people would be alive today???

I suppose their penalty awaits them if they do not reach a point of coming to repentance ....

Radagast
Mar 17th 2010, 08:25 AM
There's also an historical context. Remember, Israel in the NT was ruled by the Romans. They had final say on whether anyone was executed. Those priests probably would have been in a heap of trouble if they defied Roman authority and executed someone, even if it was just an adulterous woman.

Perhaps, but that was not the reply that Jesus gave.

notuptome
Mar 17th 2010, 12:41 PM
It would seem that islam has no problem executing adulterers. Is this what you desire? Recently a man and a woman were executed for the crime in Afganistan.

Do we desire the harshness of the law or do we desire the mercy, grace and love of Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

mcgyver
Mar 17th 2010, 02:50 PM
Thanks for the explanations and responses

I'm confused, though, about something else: 1 or 2 people commented in another thread, that if we were a truly Christian nation, we would be putting homosexuals to death, but since we are a constitutional Republic we don't. Is this a false statement?

Some of you seem to be suggesting that the death penalty (carried out by humans) is no longer valid...at least for adultery...but are there crimes it is valid for?

You've received a lot of good answers thus far, but in addition to what has already been written it's necessary to understand the purpose(s) of the Levitical law.

Firstly, the law is what teaches us about sin. It was our tutor and teacher in that we see the definition of sin, the seriousness of sin, God's abhorrence of sin, our helplessness in the face of sin, and our need of Christ to redeem us from our sin.

Secondly, and as a matter of practicality; the law was given for the governance of God's people Israel. It was a "penal code" in much the same way as the penal code of a State in the USA. The law was never meant to be imposed by an individual, but rather by the judges of Israel in order to establish order within the nation. In this context then, the law was not applicable to the gentile nations but only to those within the borders of Israel. One might compare it to the national laws today. That is to say that a US citizen residing in the US in not subject to the laws of Russia for example, but if that US citizen lives in Russia; then they come under Russian law.

Now to answer the second part of your question: God has given authority to nations to enact laws for the governance of those nations (Romans 13, 1 Peter 2:13-15), of which capital punishment is a part. This does not mean that all laws are just, on the contrary there are many laws which are patently unjust; yet God for His own good purposes allows men and nations to enact these laws.

Thirdly, we must I think attempt to understand the relationship of law and grace as Christians. Those who would say "if we are a Christian nation we should execute homosexuals" have a sad understanding of the purpose of God's law and Christ's sacrifice, to wit: That God desires that none perish, but that all come to repentance.

This does not mean we pat people on the head and say: "There, there, it's alright; God loves you anyway and won't hold it against you". Rather we must stand on the word of God and declare that sin is sin, but redemption is possible by the shed blood of Christ: "For God so loved the world...".

You've hit on an interesting dynamic, and I hope this helps a bit. :)

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 17th 2010, 04:33 PM
You've received a lot of good answers thus far, but in addition to what has already been written it's necessary to understand the purpose(s) of the Levitical law.

Firstly, the law is what teaches us about sin. It was our tutor and teacher in that we see the definition of sin, the seriousness of sin, God's abhorrence of sin, our helplessness in the face of sin, and our need of Christ to redeem us from our sin.

Secondly, and as a matter of practicality; the law was given for the governance of God's people Israel. It was a "penal code" in much the same way as the penal code of a State in the USA. The law was never meant to be imposed by an individual, but rather by the judges of Israel in order to establish order within the nation. In this context then, the law was not applicable to the gentile nations but only to those within the borders of Israel. One might compare it to the national laws today. That is to say that a US citizen residing in the US in not subject to the laws of Russia for example, but if that US citizen lives in Russia; then they come under Russian law.

Now to answer the second part of your question: God has given authority to nations to enact laws for the governance of those nations (Romans 13, 1 Peter 2:13-15), of which capital punishment is a part. This does not mean that all laws are just, on the contrary there are many laws which are patently unjust; yet God for His own good purposes allows men and nations to enact these laws.

Thirdly, we must I think attempt to understand the relationship of law and grace as Christians. Those who would say "if we are a Christian nation we should execute homosexuals" have a sad understanding of the purpose of God's law and Christ's sacrifice, to wit: That God desires that none perish, but that all come to repentance.

This does not mean we pat people on the head and say: "There, there, it's alright; God loves you anyway and won't hold it against you". Rather we must stand on the word of God and declare that sin is sin, but redemption is possible by the shed blood of Christ: "For God so loved the world...".

You've hit on an interesting dynamic, and I hope this helps a bit. :)



Good post.. and I agree with what you said....

Jesus when He taught.. even took a step further.. not only the 'act of adultery'....

He taught if one looks on another person lustfully.. he/she has already commited adultery in his/her heart...

one didnt even have to go thru 'act'.. to become 'guilty'.. of 'adultery'...

and I believe this is why He rebuked those Pharisees.. by having them examine themselves...

he that is without sin , let him cast the first stone...

He was pointing towards a 'heart issue'.. and later He taught about the 'eyes' and gazing upon another with lustful intent...

that which moves your 'eyes' comes from the 'heart'... just like murders and thefts.. the process starts in the 'heart'..

thats why we need to guard our heart... and mediatate on His Word.. having it hid deep in our heart... dwelling on those things that are Above....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God looks on the 'heart'.. and He 'knows' what your thinking about and its intents...

He 'knows'.. and He desires that you 'think and dwell on Him'....

He will give you the strength and the Power to overcome... and not allow those 'thoughts' and gazes, actually come to pass... He will help you thru it... and give your the Strength to Overcome..

so when your walking down the Mall and somebody comes along with provactive clothing.. you

can 'know' what is going on and 'think on HIm'.. instead of being caught up in the moment and 'gazing with the wrong intent'...

the adversary 'knows' your weaknesses and he will use those against you...

but Remember you have an Advocate in Heaven, Jesus Christ the Righteous.... He is your Best Defense Lawyer.. He is Eternal! amen and amen..

svfox
Mar 17th 2010, 07:47 PM
Because Jesus has paid for all sins, past and future. So you must execute Jesus not the person sinning since Jesus is paying for their sins if they are saved.
Jesus already died and did this so there is no need.

TheAnswer99
Mar 23rd 2010, 03:42 AM
Just for clarification: I do not believe adulterers should be put to death

I was just confused as to why we put murderers to death but not other sinners

Jesus said that lustful thoughts are just like committing adultery
Similarly, if we have angry thoughts toward our brother that we have committed murder in our thoughts.
All of us then are guilty of murder and are sinners - how then can we cast stones at actual murderers? Shouldn't they just be locked up and left to find salvation behind stone walls?

By some of your responses, I sense that some of you anti-Capital punishment, no?

mcgyver
Mar 23rd 2010, 03:57 AM
Well, the obvious answer is that we are not a theocracy, but a secular government. God in His wisdom has given governments authority to enact laws, and enforce those laws even when the laws were inherently evil. It is interesting to me that 1 Peter which was written during the persecution of Nero enjoins Christians to be submissive to authority.

Nevertheless, as governments are for the most part secular they can choose capital punishment for a murderer and not a thief; or they can impose capital punishment for the thief as well as the murderer. The laws of the country will reflect the cultural, sociological, and moral values of that particular country; and most of the time these have very little to do with God and His law.

nzyr
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:32 PM
It's still wrong though.

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. (Hebrews 13:4)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

subarctic_guy
Apr 1st 2010, 10:37 AM
this command was never given to us gentiles, only to the Jews under the law of moses. There was a change of covenant with the Jews after Jesus' death. The best resource for you my be "the bible fast forward" by Greg Koukl from Stand to Reason. it's an overview of the whole bible and how the old and new covenants worked in a clear way. ;)