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roaring tiger
Mar 16th 2010, 03:53 AM
Hi!!!Every one greetings;
May somebody help me understand the baptism of death;
Rom.6:3Know ye not,that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death.
Rom.6:4 Therefore we are burried with him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom.6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,we shall be also in the
likeness of his resurrection.
Thanks in advance for your quote.
many blessing./RT.

Sirus
Mar 16th 2010, 06:59 AM
It's our position by faith. We were baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ so that;
when he was crucified we were crucified
when he was dead we were dead.
when he was buried we were buried
when he was raised we were raised
so that we -by faith- --believing God said so, not because we see it-- live as those alive from the dead (resurrected) as new creatures alive unto God
if one died for all then all were dead
Christ died for our sin so we could die TO our sin
so that when temptation comes we are dead TO sin, do not have to sin, thank Him He crucified us so we could be free from the body of sin and death and not sin
he provided a (THE) way of escape -the cross -death to the old man

roaring tiger
Mar 16th 2010, 09:49 AM
It's our position by faith. We were baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ so that;
when he was crucified we were crucified
when he was dead we were dead.
when he was buried we were buried
when he was raised we were raised
so that we -by faith- --believing God said so, not because we see it-- live as those alive from the dead (resurrected) as new creatures alive unto God
if one died for all then all were dead
Christ died for our sin so we could die TO our sin
so that when temptation comes we are dead TO sin, do not have to sin, thank Him He crucified us so we could be free from the body of sin and death and not sin
he provided a (THE) way of escape -the cross -death to the old man

Hi!!!Sirus my friend greetings;
Thank you for your quote and I agree on all your explanation which draw how big your faith to our Lord.By the meantime,I shall not give no other comment and i'm preparing some supporting
scripture connected to the true meaning of spiritual baptism.Let me hear first from our brother and sister who may want to share for more view on this thread.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

BroRog
Mar 16th 2010, 04:06 PM
Hi!!!Every one greetings;
May somebody help me understand the baptism of death;
Rom.6:3Know ye not,that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death.
Rom.6:4 Therefore we are burried with him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom.6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,we shall be also in the
likeness of his resurrection.
Thanks in advance for your quote.
many blessing./RT.For a start, we notice that Paul did not say "baptism OF death", but "baptized INTO his death." To be baptized "into" something is to accept, agree, and affirm the teaching of the person who baptized you. To be baptized into Christ is to agree with his teaching. And to be baptized into the death of Christ is to agree with the tenet that I am a sinner and agree that Jesus died the death I deserved.

The Mighty Sword
Mar 16th 2010, 05:43 PM
Hi!!!Every one greetings;
May somebody help me understand the baptism of death;
Rom.6:3Know ye not,that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death.
Rom.6:4 Therefore we are burried with him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom.6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,we shall be also in the
likeness of his resurrection.
Thanks in advance for your quote.
many blessing./RT.



May somebody help me understand the baptism of death;

Christ died for our sins, so we are to die to our former selves, Baptism We die (to our former life of sin), we are buried (submersed) and ressurected (out of the water)

roaring tiger
Mar 16th 2010, 08:31 PM
For a start, we notice that Paul did not say "baptism OF death", but "baptized INTO his death." To be baptized "into" something is to accept, agree, and affirm the teaching of the person who baptized you. To be baptized into Christ is to agree with his teaching. And to be baptized into the death of Christ is to agree with the tenet that I am a sinner and agree that Jesus died the death I deserved.

Hi!!!BroRog Greetings;
Thank you very much for clarifying my error in"of and into"I admit and not ashamed that I was really lowly educated so,I had a poor english grammar.
I accept, agree and affirm the teaching of the person who baptized you.
And to be baptized is to agree with the tenet that i am a sinner and agree that Jesus died the death I deserved.
So,this is topic that we are disccusing,the veil of our salvation therefore his flesh by sacrificing his body in exchange for our freedom on bondage of sin.
As far as I know,there is no other man duly anointed by God to baptized anyone with baptism into death,except he the begotten Son,Jesus Christ who give his life and died for us.
When he ascended to heaven and sit at the right of the Father,his body is no longer present with us,but he left a promise that the Father will send a Comforter or the Holy Ghost.
So,to make story short,we believe and accepted his teaching;from being a sinner we try to reform ourselves to walk with him trough his commandment.
What I'm asking for is the true spirit or meaning if how could his death on the tree give us salvation?If,we are really God fearing it is easy to change our way of life.
As what I know,baptizing is connected in shedding of his precious blood,that through the blood and water that flow out of his body is an act baptizing us as a parallel of Able,s blood.
Gen.4:9 And the Lord said unto Cain,Where is Cain thy brother?And he said,I know not:Am I my brothers keeper?
v.10)And he said ,What hast thou done? the voice of the brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Heb.12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of new covenant, and to the blood of springkling,that speaketh better things than that of Able.
God heard the crieth of Able's blood,so what is the blood of Jesus speaketh?Let us study the in depth of this matter.
Thank you and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

roaring tiger
Mar 16th 2010, 08:38 PM
Christ died for our sins, so we are to die to our former selves, Baptism We die (to our former life of sin), we are buried (submersed) and ressurected (out of the water)

Thank you for your reply and I do agree with what you said.I do welcome you,let us study every aspect of baptism into death.
Many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

BroRog
Mar 16th 2010, 09:43 PM
What I'm asking for is the true spirit or meaning if how could his death on the tree give us salvation?Ultimately, salvation is a free gift of God's grace. God didn't need for Jesus to die in order to grant us salvation. It wasn't as if there was some cosmic debt to divine justice that needed to be met before God could save the world. Rather the death of Jesus, according to the scriptures, was intended as a public demonstration of God's justice. And God has decided to give his gift of salvation to those who look at Jesus' death on the cross and admit that we are sinners and deserved to get what Jesus got rather him. If you look at the cross and say, "that should have been me" then God will give you eternal life.

roaring tiger
Mar 17th 2010, 01:31 AM
Ultimately, salvation is a free gift of God's grace. God didn't need for Jesus to die in order to grant us salvation. It wasn't as if there was some cosmic debt to divine justice that needed to be met before God could save the world. Rather the death of Jesus, according to the scriptures, was intended as a public demonstration of God's justice. And God has decided to give his gift of salvation to those who look at Jesus' death on the cross and admit that we are sinners and deserved to get what Jesus got rather him. If you look at the cross and say, "that should have been me" then God will give you eternal life.

Hi!!!BroRog greetings ;
I understood all the meaning of your quote however it will be more appropriate if you would kindly give scripture so I can study carefully every words that you will express for me.
I mean that let us base our concept in scripture rather we share by our own words.Just, for example you said according to scriptures, was intended as a pubblic demonstration of God's justice.
I had use about two hours and I cannot locate it in the bible.So, my only request,if it cannnot cause you inconvenience,please kindly indicate such scripture for more enlightment.
We must also avoid provocative statement that will give us confusion because we both belong to God.And for your info. i'm a none member of any denomination.I had no pastor
but Ps.23:1 The Lord is my shepherd;I shall not want. John 10:14 (Jesus) I am the good shepherd,and know my sheep and am known mine.
John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep he goeth before them,and the sheep follow him;for they know his voice.
BroRog, you did not address my previous post ,I shall repeat it;As what I knowbaptising is connected
in shedding of his precious blood, That through the blood and water that flow out of his body is an act of baptizing us as parallel of Able's blood.John 19;34-35.
Gen.4:9-10 And the Lord said unto Cain,Where is Able thy brother? And he said,I know not:Am I my brother's keeper.
v.10)And he said ,What hast thou done?The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Heb.12:24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,and to the blood of springkling,that speaketh better things than that of Able.
God heard the crieth of Able's blood,so what is the better things that Jesus blood speaketh?
Let us study the in depth meaning of this matter.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

losthorizon
Mar 17th 2010, 02:58 AM
Help;Rom.6:3-5 Please explain baptism of death.


In this passage Paul explains that baptism (a burial in water) is an ordinance appointed by Christ that takes us back to Christ’s death on the cross and to our own “death to sin” – it then points forward to Christ’s resurrection and our own “rising up” out of the watery-grave of baptism in the “likeness of his resurrection” that we might “walk in newness of life” – a new creature in Christ Jesus – born of water and the Spirit though the operation of the Holy Spirit.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Rom 6:3-5 KJV)

In newness of life (en kainotēti zōēs). The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ’s death and burial and to our death to sin (Rom_6:1), forwards to Christ’s resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul’s majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it... ~ WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT (Robertson)

roaring tiger
Mar 17th 2010, 04:24 AM
In this passage Paul explains that baptism (a burial in water) is an ordinance appointed by Christ that takes us back to Christ’s death on the cross and to our own “death to sin” – it then points forward to Christ’s resurrection and our own “rising up” out of the watery-grave of baptism in the “likeness of his resurrection” that we might “walk in newness of life” – a new creature in Christ Jesus – born of water and the Spirit though the operation of the Holy Spirit.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Rom 6:3-5 KJV)

In newness of life (en kainotēti zōēs). The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ’s death and burial and to our death to sin (Rom_6:1), forwards to Christ’s resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul’s majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it... ~ WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT (Robertson)



Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
I read thoroughly your quote and I cannot find nowhere (a burial in water) is an ordinance by Christ in Rom.6:3-5 baptism into death.You also mention that we may walk in newness of life.
So; if we are a new creature,Eph.2:12-13 That at time ye where without Christ,being aliens from commonwealth of Israel,and stranger in the covenants of promise,having no hope and
without God in the world.
v.13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Jesus.So,we can conclude that we are now under a new covenant?I shall discuss this later on.
I view the picture in baptism you recommend but as what you said it was blurred and I did not identiied anything.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT

BroRog
Mar 17th 2010, 03:35 PM
Hi!!!BroRog greetings ;
I understood all the meaning of your quote however it will be more appropriate if you would kindly give scripture so I can study carefully every words that you will express for me.
I mean that let us base our concept in scripture rather we share by our own words.Just, for example you said according to scriptures, was intended as a pubblic demonstration of God's justice.
I had use about two hours and I cannot locate it in the bible.Okay. Here is the scripture. I'll underline the phrases that align with what I said earlier.



But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.



BroRog, you did not address my previous post, I shall repeat it; As what I know baptising is connected in shedding of his precious blood, That through the blood and water that flow out of his body is an act of baptizing us as parallel of Able's blood.I don't see the connection you are making except that they both involve water.

Butch5
Mar 17th 2010, 10:25 PM
It's our position by faith. We were baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ so that;
when he was crucified we were crucified
when he was dead we were dead.
when he was buried we were buried
when he was raised we were raised
so that we -by faith- --believing God said so, not because we see it-- live as those alive from the dead (resurrected) as new creatures alive unto God
if one died for all then all were dead
Christ died for our sin so we could die TO our sin
so that when temptation comes we are dead TO sin, do not have to sin, thank Him He crucified us so we could be free from the body of sin and death and not sin
he provided a (THE) way of escape -the cross -death to the old man

Paul is speaking of our being united with Christ at baptism. What in particular were looking for?

losthorizon
Mar 17th 2010, 10:43 PM
Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
I read thoroughly your quote and I cannot find nowhere (a burial in water) is an ordinance by Christ in Rom.6:3-5 baptism into death.


Really? Well RT – the ordinance of baptism is clearly a burial in water and the church of God has taught that the baptism mentioned in Romans 6 is that same *burial in water* - into his death. Baptism in water points us to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and our participation therein. Maybe you can present exactly what you think the baptism in Romans 6 is if it is not a baptism (immersion) in water. Thanks.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."—Romans 6:3-4.

I shall not enter into controversy over this text, although over it some have raised the question of infant baptism or believers' baptism, immersion or sprinkling. If any person can give a consistent and instructive interpretation of the text, otherwise than by assuming believers' immersion to be Christian baptism, I should like to see them do it. I myself am quite incapable of performing such a feat, or even of imagining how it can be done. I am content to take the view that baptism signifies the burial of believers in water in the name of the Lord, and I shall so interpret the text...It would seem that some had been baptized who did not clearly know the meaning of their own baptism.

I do not understand Paul to say that if improper persons, such as unbelievers, and hypocrites, and deceivers, are baptized they are baptized into our Lord's death. He says "so many of us," putting himself with the rest of the children of God. He intends such as are entitled to baptism, and come to it with their hearts in a right state....

Baptism sets forth the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and our participation therein. Its teaching is twofold. First, think of our representative union with Christ, so that when he died and was buried it was on our behalf, and we were thus buried with him. This will give you the teaching of baptism so far as it sets forth a creed. We declare in baptism that we believe in the death of Jesus, and desire to partake in all the merit of it. But there is a second equally important matter and that is our realized union with Christ which is set forth in baptism, not so much as a doctrine of our creed as a matter of our experience. There is a manner of dying, of being buried, of rising, and of living in Christ which must be displayed in each one of us if we are indeed members of the body of Christ.

~ Charles Spurgeon, Baptism - a Burial

roaring tiger
Mar 18th 2010, 01:56 AM
Okay. Here is the scripture. I'll underline the phrases that align with what I said earlier.




But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.



I don't see the connection you are making except that they both involve water.

Hi!!!BroRog greetings;
Okay...I've got your concept,in Rom.3:21-26 right? there are only some difference in translation.I use a KJV and it is the sole bible I own.
here is the difference=justified as a gift----KJV justified freely
displayed publicly--------KJV--Hath set forth
demonstrate-------------KJV--declare it almost contain the same meaning,I just have to put some concentration to understand it.
Alright,yoe say that you don't see the connection about the blood of Able that crieth and the Holy blood of Jesus that speaketh better things.
Well,I'm fully aware for that result so, as it was a foreword in 1Cor. 2:8-10.Which none of the princes of this world knew,for if they had known it,they would not crucified the Lord of glory.
v.9) But as it is written,Eye hath not seen,nor ear heard,neither had entered into the heart of man,the things which had God prepared for them that love him.
v.10 But God hath revealed them them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things,yea,the deep things of God.
Now,let us study the interrelation of this two event or two blood.when God created Adam in his own image and likeness,man was supposed to have everlasting life before there falls.
So,Cain believe to be an offspring of the deceiver,out of jealousy and to reflect the deeds of satan kill his brother,that's why Jesus called you are from your father the devil because he
was murderer and father of liar since the beginning.
God renew his covenant with Abram and Sarai;Gen.17:4-9 As for me behold,my covenant is with thee,and thou shalt be a father of many nation.
v.5)Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram,but the name shall be Abraham;for a father of many nation have I made thee.
v.6) And I will make theexceeding fruitful,and I will make nation of thee,and kings shall come out of thee.
v.7) And I will establish my covenant between me and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant,to be a God unto thee,and thy seed after thee.
v.8) And I will give unto thee,and to thy seed after thee,the land wherein thou art stranger,all the land of Canaan,for an everlsting possesion;and I will be their God.
v.9) And God said to Abraham,Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore,thou,and thy seed after thee.
v.15) And God said to Abraham as for Sa'rai thy wife,thou shalt not call her name Sa'rai,but Sarah shall her name be.
So, we can see that when God makes covenant with man there are changing of names,a tradition man made when baptising an infant.
It is the same in Exo.34:27 And the Lord said unto Moses,Write thou these words:for after the tenor(sound) of these words I made a covenant with thee and Israel.
Deut.4:12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of fire:ye heard the voice of the words,but no similitude;only ye heard a voice.
v.36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,and h might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire;and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
v.5:24) And ye said,Behold,the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness,and we have heard his voice out of the midst of fire:we have seen this day that God talk
with man,and he liveth.
Heb.12:24 And Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,and to the blood of springkling,that speaketh better things that of Able.
Let us study what thus atonement by blood means.Heb.9:22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;and without shedding of blood is no remission of sin.
Lev.17;11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I had given to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls:for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Blood is a metaphor word for name of life or name of Christ.Material blood even a river of blood cannot clean or forgive the wholeness of the sin all men hath done.
We are being baptized in his death not because of his literal death but by his life that he gave in behalf of our salvation.DEATH is our enemy that Jesus has overcome,when he
made his ownself as a sacrifice in the cross to allow us to hear,his suffering and it is his blood that speaked it all.And he rise from the dead by the same word or by the glory of the Father.
Heb.3:7-8 Wherefore(as the Holy Ghost saith,To day if you will hear his voice,
v.9) Harden not your hearts,as in the provocation,in the day of temptation in the wilderness.
Thanks and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

roaring tiger
Mar 18th 2010, 02:21 AM
Paul is speaking of our being united with Christ at baptism. What in particular were looking for?

Hi!!!Bro.Butch greetings;
Yes,I agree that baptism is our being united with Christ and that is true.my position here is for us to succeed ,to overcometh in knowing Jesus Christ and to inherit an everlasting life.
2Cor.13:5 (Paul said to us)Examine yourself,whether ye be in faith;prove your own selves.know ye not your own selves,how that Jesus Christ is in you,except ye be reprobates.
v.6)But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.If it's so, were united with him,and his words remain in us.
Rev.2;17 He that hath an ear,let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;To him that overcometh will I give him a white stone and in the stone a new name written,which
no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Thank you and many blesing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Sirus
Mar 18th 2010, 02:30 AM
Paul is speaking of our being united with Christ at baptism.Based on the past I'll asumme you mean water baptism. OK, so when you believe you are in Christ and therefore walk as one alive from the dead and are therefore free from sin and dead to sin because a dead man is not bound by the law of the old man, how are you not saying you are free from sin because of a work you did in the flesh?


What in particular were looking for?this doesn't make sense. Did you mean to ask something else? I didn't say I was looking for anything, if that's what you meant.

losthorizon
Mar 18th 2010, 02:55 AM
OK, so when you believe you are in Christ and therefore walk as one alive from the dead and are therefore free from sin and dead to sin because a dead man is not bound by the law of the old man, how are you not saying you are free from sin because of a work you did in the flesh?


Are you saying when one “obeys from the heart” the command of Jesus to be baptized in water one is “earning” salvation? How does that work exactly in your theology? The NT is clear - salvation is God’s gift and man is completely and finally saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation it is not dependent on “our works of merit”, i.e., we cannot “earn” God’s favor through self-righteousness. But Holy Writ also clearly tells us there are two kinds of works – (1) works of “merit” done to "earn" something and (2) works of "faith" done to "receive" something. Works of faith are required by God – they are referred to as "works of God", i.e., “that we might work the works of God" - works which are the fruit of faith.

Faith, repentance and baptism are all commanded by God and thus when one obeys God’s commands from the heart that person is doing the “work of God.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry

roaring tiger
Mar 18th 2010, 03:20 AM
Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
I respect your position and I think,I need no more to answer your quote for I had already explain my position in my other post.In my view I'm not against any of your concept and I
only want to share some thing that our brother and sister may overlook or not being able to pay attention.
In my position all kind of baptism refer to being united to God through his begotten Son Jesus Christ.As what you had said in your previous quote.
Eph.2:12That at that time ye were without Christ,being an alien in commonwealth of Israel,and stranger from covenants of promise,having no hope,and with out God in the world.
v.13)But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ
v.14)For he is our peace,who hath made both one,and broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
v.15)Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;for to make in himself of twain one new man,so making peace.
So being a new man and now is no longer an stranger in covenant we have now the hope and we had now a God.
Heb.8:8-11 For finding fault with them,he saith,Behold the days come,saith the Lord,when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
v.9)Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;because they continued not in my covenant,
and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
v.10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,saith the Lord;I will put my laws into their minds and write them in their hearts: and I will be
to them a God,and they shall be to me a people.
v.11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour,and every man his brother,saying,Know the Lord: for all shall know me,from least to the greatest.
v.12)For I will be merciful to their to their unrighteousness,and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Thank you and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Sirus
Mar 18th 2010, 03:33 AM
Are you saying when one “obeys from the heart” the command of Jesus to be baptized in water one is “earning” salvation? How does that work exactly in your theology? The NT is clear - salvation is God’s gift and man is completely and finally saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation it is not dependent on “our works of merit”, i.e., we cannot “earn” God’s favor through self-righteousness. But Holy Writ also clearly tells us there are two kinds of works – (1) works of “merit” done to "earn" something and (2) works of "faith" done to "receive" something. Works of faith are required by God – they are referred to as "works of God", i.e., “that we might work the works of God" - works which are the fruit of faith.

Faith, repentance and baptism are all commanded by God and thus when one obeys God’s commands from the heart that person is doing the “work of God.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry I will gladly respond to your post after you answer the question. I'll reword it for you. If your water baptism put you in Christ, and it is because you are in Christ that sin does not have dominion over you, doesn't your water baptism give you power over sin? Yes or no?

roaring tiger
Mar 18th 2010, 05:46 AM
Are you saying when one “obeys from the heart” the command of Jesus to be baptized in water one is “earning” salvation? How does that work exactly in your theology? The NT is clear - salvation is God’s gift and man is completely and finally saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation it is not dependent on “our works of merit”, i.e., we cannot “earn” God’s favor through self-righteousness. But Holy Writ also clearly tells us there are two kinds of works – (1) works of “merit” done to "earn" something and (2) works of "faith" done to "receive" something. Works of faith are required by God – they are referred to as "works of God", i.e., “that we might work the works of God" - works which are the fruit of faith.

Faith, repentance and baptism are all commanded by God and thus when one obeys God’s commands from the heart that person is doing the “work of God.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry

Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
You are asking if one "obeys from the heart"the command of Jesus will earn salvation? my answer is ,Yes,according to scripture.
Luke 10:25-28 And,behold, a certain lawyer stood up,and temted him,saying,Master,what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
v.26) He said unto him,What is written in the law? how readest thou?
v.27) And he answering said,Thou shalt love the Lord with all thy heart,and with all thy soul,and with all thy strength,and with all thy mind:and thy neighbor as thy self.
v.28)And he said unto him,Thou hast answered right:this do,and thou shalt live.
Your concept Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be save; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Here is my answer;
1Tim.1:5-8 Now the end of commandment is charity out of a pure heart,and a good conscience,and of faith unfeigned.
v.6) From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
v.7)Desiring to be teachers of the law;understanding neither what they say,nor whereof they affirm.
v.8) But we know that the law is good if a man use it lawfully.
Rom.10:10-15 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
v.11)For the scripture saith,Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
v.11)For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek;for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
v.13)For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
v.14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they had never heard? and how shall they hear with out a preacher?
v.17)So then faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God.
Now,Jesus now had ascended to Father and all the apostle had deceased.From who among man shall you be baptized? Are there any man at present times duly anointed to baptize?
Supposed I Would want to be baptized,from whose name should you baptized me?Matt.28:19 Go ye therefore,teach all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father?,and of the
Son?,and of the Holy Ghost?
If we however are truly united with Christ we are now a new creation,a new man,and now engrafted with the covenant of New Jerusalem ;therefore we should bear the seal of God.
Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord shall be the king over all the earth:in that day shall be one Lord,and his name one.
Thankyou and many blessing .
in love ofChrist./RT.

ClayInHisHands
Mar 18th 2010, 02:56 PM
If your water baptism put you in Christ, and it is because you are in Christ that sin does not have dominion over you, doesn't your water baptism give you power over sin? Yes or no?

Hope you don't mind if I answer this.

I believe that because we believe and then are baptized we become dead, buried and raised with Christ. Although we were baptized, Christ is the one who gives me power over sin...not actually the water. Just like Christ's death saved me.....but it was necessary for all the events that led to His death to occur. If not then God could have just placed Jesus here and killed Jesus Himself and said believe Jesus was My Son....and I have made it possible that His blood is the ransom for many. There had to be suffering and sacrifice involved. So technically it isn't a 'free gift' as in 'free'...for nothing....something was given. Christ suffered unto death to give us life and the only part that is 'free' is that we don't have to die forever if we believe in Him.

If someone gives me a pencil and says...here it's free....I have to accept it. If the pencil just sits there and I leave it there and walk away....I'm telling that person...no thanks. Now if I take the pencil from them and thank them and show gratitude for their gift...my saying thanks and showing gratitude is not a work. It's a sacrifice of my pride to accept that someone gave me the pencil and not to say.....I don't need your pencil...I can get it myself.

Hope that analogy made sense.


In Christ's Love

losthorizon
Mar 18th 2010, 05:20 PM
I will gladly respond to your post after you answer the question. I'll reword it for you. If your water baptism put you in Christ, and it is because you are in Christ that sin does not have dominion over you, doesn't your water baptism give you power over sin? Yes or no?
I have already answered but let me answer again - salvation is God’s gift and man is completely and finally saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation it is not dependent on “works of merit” but we are required to “work the works of God”. Belief, repentance and baptism are “works of faith" done to "receive" something – that something received is salvation through His blood. The blood of Christ alone has the power to wash away our sins – therefore, baptism is essential to the gospel of grace as the answer to a good conscious to God as it points us to the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet 3:21). Jesus and Peter both tell us that baptism in water precedes remission of sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38) and Paul tells us that his sins were washed away by the blood of Christ AFTER he believed and was baptized in water...
… “Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16)You’re up.

BroRog
Mar 18th 2010, 05:37 PM
Some people focus on the act of baptism rather than the meaning behind the act, but Paul's point in Romans 6 relies on the meaning behind the act of Baptism, not the act itself. He asks a rhetorical question, "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?" The nature of this question is an objection to Paul's Gospel. Those among his piers who object to the gospel of Grace, will say that Paul's Gospel leads to more sin rather than less sin. Paul just argued that the Law brought about an increase in transgressions but that God's grace abounded all the more. His objectors would argue, "Wouldn't it make sense, Paul, that we should sin more so that we might help God display his grace more? Isn't that a logical conclusion to your teaching?"

May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

What does he mean by "died to sin"? To die to sin is to give up on sin as a means to find the good life. During his time, people were trying to define for themselves what it meant to live the "good" life. And the answer to the question depended on how a person defined "good". How do you define the good life? What form or philosophy of living would make the course of this existence worth taking? When we get old and look back over the course of our life, would we find that we wasted our time on earth or was it worth the effort? That is the question.

How about chugging back a few bears with some close friends? How about living with a sweet wife and obedient kids? What about finding a fulfilling and rewarding job? However we might define the "good" life, those of us who have died to sin have decided that sin is no longer going to be part of our definition of the good life.

If, as a new believer in Christ, I have agreed that Christ died so that I might be saved from sin, that sin is something worth condemnation, and that I want to be free from sin, then why would I want to continue to live in sin? Better yet, why would I continue to seek "life" in it. A believer has decided that sin is not a good means to find a rewarding and fulfilling life. When he or she decided to believe and trust in Christ, that person made the decision that sin was not part of the "good life" and so why would he or she continue to seek life there?

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Here Paul talks about the act of baptism, then he explains the significance behind the act. Given the fact that we were baptized into Christ, what did this mean? Why was that significant? When we became a disciple of Christ, and accepted the ceremonial act that signified our becoming a disciple, one of the tenets we accepted as true was the fact that Jesus died so that we might be free from both the condemnation that sin deserved, and the effects of sin, which are dissolution, decay, dissipation, meaninglessness, and futility. Sin is a waste: a useless and profitless activity. Sin doesn't lead to fulfillment, meaning or significance, it works against our fulfillment in this life.

This is the answer to his objectors. The gospel of grace does not lead to an increase in sin, because those who have affirmed the major tenets of the faith have decided that sin does not bring the good life. Those who repudiate sin in this way, will naturally and logically want to avoid sin not increase in sin. Those who have affirmed that Jesus Christ came to free us from the penalty of sin, and to free us from a wasted life, giving us eternal life instead, will not want to seek to find the good life there.
Some people focus on the act of baptism rather than the meaning behind the act, but Paul's point in Romans 6 relies on the meaning behind the act of Baptism, not the act itself.

losthorizon
Mar 18th 2010, 06:38 PM
Some people focus on the act of baptism rather than the meaning behind the act, but Paul's point in Romans 6 relies on the meaning behind the act of Baptism, not the act itself.
And of course Paul expects all of us who focus on the meaning of baptism to teach those who will be Christ’s disciples that they must submit from the heart to the ordinance that places one into the body of Christ.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. ~ Jesus Christ

losthorizon
Mar 18th 2010, 10:07 PM
Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
You are asking if one "obeys from the heart"the command of Jesus will earn salvation? my answer is ,Yes,according to scripture.


Actually my friend there is no way we can “earn salvation” – salvation is God’s gift – salvation is, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

But we must “obey from the heart” the gospel of Christ and that gospel message certainly includes the command from the Lord to be immersed in water. We have been “made free from sin” by the blood of Christ as we obey His word – our obedience makes us free from sin as we became the servants of righteousness.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:17-23 KJV)
You never answered my question – if the baptism of Romans 6:3-5 is not baptism in water what is it? Are you of the KJV only persuasion?

BroRog
Mar 18th 2010, 10:18 PM
And of course Paul expects all of us who focus on the meaning of baptism to teach those who will be Christ’s disciples that they must submit from the heart to the ordinance that places one into the body of Christ.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. ~ Jesus Christ

I couldn't prove this from the passage at hand. I think you are reading that into it.

Butch5
Mar 18th 2010, 11:23 PM
Hi!!!Bro.Butch greetings;
Yes,I agree that baptism is our being united with Christ and that is true.my position here is for us to succeed ,to overcometh in knowing Jesus Christ and to inherit an everlasting life.
2Cor.13:5 (Paul said to us)Examine yourself,whether ye be in faith;prove your own selves.know ye not your own selves,how that Jesus Christ is in you,except ye be reprobates.
v.6)But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.If it's so, were united with him,and his words remain in us.
Rev.2;17 He that hath an ear,let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;To him that overcometh will I give him a white stone and in the stone a new name written,which
no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Thank you and many blesing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Hi RT,

I'm a little confused. In your OP you asked for help understanding the passage. What is it that you need help with?

Now I realize why I am confused. I inadvertantly posted my reply to you in a post to Sirus.

Butch5
Mar 18th 2010, 11:25 PM
Based on the past I'll asumme you mean water baptism. OK, so when you believe you are in Christ and therefore walk as one alive from the dead and are therefore free from sin and dead to sin because a dead man is not bound by the law of the old man, how are you not saying you are free from sin because of a work you did in the flesh?

this doesn't make sense. Did you mean to ask something else? I didn't say I was looking for anything, if that's what you meant.

Sorry, I clicked the wrong post. I was responding to RT.

losthorizon
Mar 18th 2010, 11:35 PM
I couldn't prove this from the passage at hand. I think you are reading that into it.
The ordinance of baptism puts the believer into Christ does it not?
"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:27What part of “baptized into Christ” (i.e., engrafted into Him) are you missing?
Baptism is an Ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party Baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death, and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ to live and walk in newness of Life. ~ London Baptist Confession of Faith

BroRog
Mar 19th 2010, 12:35 AM
The ordinance of baptism puts the believer into Christ does it not?No. Not really. The ordinance of baptism puts the believer into the water. The believer's desire to follow Jesus and live according to his teaching places the believer into Christ.

roaring tiger
Mar 19th 2010, 12:46 AM
Some people focus on the act of baptism rather than the meaning behind the act, but Paul's point in Romans 6 relies on the meaning behind the act of Baptism, not the act itself. He asks a rhetorical question, "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?" The nature of this question is an objection to Paul's Gospel. Those among his piers who object to the gospel of Grace, will say that Paul's Gospel leads to more sin rather than less sin. Paul just argued that the Law brought about an increase in transgressions but that God's grace abounded all the more. His objectors would argue, "Wouldn't it make sense, Paul, that we should sin more so that we might help God display his grace more? Isn't that a logical conclusion to your teaching?"

May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

What does he mean by "died to sin"? To die to sin is to give up on sin as a means to find the good life. During his time, people were trying to define for themselves what it meant to live the "good" life. And the answer to the question depended on how a person defined "good". How do you define the good life? What form or philosophy of living would make the course of this existence worth taking? When we get old and look back over the course of our life, would we find that we wasted our time on earth or was it worth the effort? That is the question.

How about chugging back a few bears with some close friends? How about living with a sweet wife and obedient kids? What about finding a fulfilling and rewarding job? However we might define the "good" life, those of us who have died to sin have decided that sin is no longer going to be part of our definition of the good life.

If, as a new believer in Christ, I have agreed that Christ died so that I might be saved from sin, that sin is something worth condemnation, and that I want to be free from sin, then why would I want to continue to live in sin? Better yet, why would I continue to seek "life" in it. A believer has decided that sin is not a good means to find a rewarding and fulfilling life. When he or she decided to believe and trust in Christ, that person made the decision that sin was not part of the "good life" and so why would he or she continue to seek life there?

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Here Paul talks about the act of baptism, then he explains the significance behind the act. Given the fact that we were baptized into Christ, what did this mean? Why was that significant? When we became a disciple of Christ, and accepted the ceremonial act that signified our becoming a disciple, one of the tenets we accepted as true was the fact that Jesus died so that we might be free from both the condemnation that sin deserved, and the effects of sin, which are dissolution, decay, dissipation, meaninglessness, and futility. Sin is a waste: a useless and profitless activity. Sin doesn't lead to fulfillment, meaning or significance, it works against our fulfillment in this life.

This is the answer to his objectors. The gospel of grace does not lead to an increase in sin, because those who have affirmed the major tenets of the faith have decided that sin does not bring the good life. Those who repudiate sin in this way, will naturally and logically want to avoid sin not increase in sin. Those who have affirmed that Jesus Christ came to free us from the penalty of sin, and to free us from a wasted life, giving us eternal life instead, will not want to seek to find the good life there.
Some people focus on the act of baptism rather than the meaning behind the act, but Paul's point in Romans 6 relies on the meaning behind the act of Baptism, not the act itself.

Hi!!!BroRog greetings;
I do hereby applaud your excellent reply as a awakening advice for those that can not release them selves old doctrine of the past.I had only one comment in your post.
Here is;Better yet,why would I continue to seek "life" in it.? I'm not pro or against this,because by this phrase it is positive or negative but I'll give some reason for it.
Matt.10:38-39 And he that taketh his cross,and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
v.39) He that findeth his life shall lost it:and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Prov.8:34-35 Blesed is the man that heareth me,watching daily t my gates,waiting at the post of my doors.
v.35) For whoso findeth me findeth life,and shall obtain favur of the Lord.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

losthorizon
Mar 19th 2010, 12:56 AM
No. Not really. The ordinance of baptism puts the believer into the water. The believer's desire to follow Jesus and live according to his teaching places the believer into Christ.
Actually, Holy Writ clearly states we are baptized into Christ. Will the believer who refuses to be baptized in water be placed by God “into Christ” or must s/he first be immersed in water as commanded by Christ (Mark 16:16) in order to be found "in Christ"? Do you think Jesus meant what He said - "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved..."? Do you think “all spiritual blessings” are found “in Christ”?
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ. ~ Ephesians 1:3 Does this verse teach that “every spiritual blessing” is located in Christ? Do you believe only those who are in Christ can enjoy these spiritual blessings? Are believers “baptized into Christ” where we find “all spiritual blessings”? Are you sure we are not "baptized into Jesus Christ..."
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Rom 6:3 KJV)

roaring tiger
Mar 19th 2010, 01:44 AM
Hi RT,

I'm a little confused. In your OP you asked for help understanding the passage. What is it that you need help with?

Now I realize why I am confused. I inadvertantly posted my reply to you in a post to Sirus.

Hi!!!Brother butch5 greetings;
I'm very sorry if my OP had confused you,however, I think you had already settle it with Bro.Sirus; so let's go on.
This is my answer on your question,if what am I looking for?
1 Cor. 10:24Let no man seek his own,but every another's wealth.
Isaiah 53:6 All we sheep have gone astray;we have turned every one to his own way;and the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all.
v.7) he was oppressed,and he was afflicted,yet he opened not his mouth:he is brought as a lamb to the slaugther,and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,so he openeth not his mouth.
Luke 15:4-7 What man of you,having an hundred sheep,if he lose one of them,doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,and go after that which is lost,until he find it?
v.5)And when he found it,he layeth it on his shoulders,rejoicing.
v.6) And when he cometh home,he calleth together his friends and neighbours,saying unto them,Rejoice with me;for I have found my sheep which was lost.
v.7)I say unto you,that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repeeneth than over ninety and nine just persons,which need no repentance.
Here is a divine assurance that not even one of the straying sheep of God's flock is overlooked or unhelp.Christ good shepherd will rescue and who has offered himself as a ransom for us.
Hope this will help clear all.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Butch5
Mar 19th 2010, 02:31 AM
Hi!!!Brother butch5 greetings;
I'm very sorry if my OP had confused you,however, I think you had already settle it with Bro.Sirus; so let's go on.
This is my answer on your question,if what am I looking for?
1 Cor. 10:24Let no man seek his own,but every another's wealth.
Isaiah 53:6 All we sheep have gone astray;we have turned every one to his own way;and the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all.
v.7) he was oppressed,and he was afflicted,yet he opened not his mouth:he is brought as a lamb to the slaugther,and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,so he openeth not his mouth.
Luke 15:4-7 What man of you,having an hundred sheep,if he lose one of them,doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,and go after that which is lost,until he find it?
v.5)And when he found it,he layeth it on his shoulders,rejoicing.
v.6) And when he cometh home,he calleth together his friends and neighbours,saying unto them,Rejoice with me;for I have found my sheep which was lost.
v.7)I say unto you,that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repeeneth than over ninety and nine just persons,which need no repentance.
Here is a divine assurance that not even one of the straying sheep of God's flock is overlooked or unhelp.Christ good shepherd will rescue and who has offered himself as a ransom for us.
Hope this will help clear all.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Thank you RT!!!

Sirus
Mar 19th 2010, 02:34 AM
I have already answered but let me answer again - salvation is God’s gift and man is completely and finally saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation it is not dependent on “works of merit” but we are required to “work the works of God”. Belief, repentance and baptism are “works of faith" done to "receive" something – that something received is salvation through His blood. The blood of Christ alone has the power to wash away our sins – therefore, baptism is essential to the gospel of grace as the answer to a good conscious to God as it points us to the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet 3:21). Jesus and Peter both tell us that baptism in water precedes remission of sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38) and Paul tells us that his sins were washed away by the blood of Christ AFTER he believed and was baptized in water...
… “Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16)You’re up.I guess that's a yes.

Repent and believe are inseparable. If you truly repent it is because you believe, and if you truly believe you will repent -change you mind/turn to God. Baptism in water follows. All this is seen in every instance in the book of Acts.

Belief is never a work in scripture. We do not do works to receive something. We have already been given all things, because we believe -work the works of God -believe.

The form of doctrine delivered is not baptism. It is the gospel of Jesus Christ "for obedience to the faith among all nations" -Rom 1:15 and "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" Rom 16:25-26.

I know no one that was born again at baptism. Everyone I know was born again before baptism. They were washed and sanctified by faith having the spirit of Christ in them before they were baptized. They had fruit as a result of faith to prove their faith before they were baptized. Everyone I have known has been baptized. I know no one that refused baptism. Therefore all of these overcome because of the circumcision of Christ made without hands and operation of God, not because of a work that came later -water.

Mark 16:16 is to the nations and is after v15 -the gospel -repent/believe. Water is after as we see in Acts 10.

Lets put these two together.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Act 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Act 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Did he receive the Spirit through laying on of hands or at baptism? It doesn't say. Your doctrine says but the text does not.
Verse 16: call upon the name of the Lord is continual, not just at salvation or baptism.
It was a very big deal to be an Israelite and be baptized into Christ. It was especially necessary for Paul to be baptized publicly.

Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

losthorizon
Mar 19th 2010, 03:26 AM
Repent and believe are inseparable. If you truly repent it is because you believe, and if you truly believe you will repent -change you mind/turn to God. Baptism in water follows. All this is seen in every instance in the book of Acts.

Yes – belief, repentance and baptism are all observed in all the conversions in Acts because all three *acts of obedience* are essential to the gospel of grace and all three come before one’s sins are remitted per Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16.



Belief is never a work in scripture.

Of course you are wrong once again – belief is always a work in Scripture…
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Joh 6:29 KJV)Baptism – the ordinance from God is also God’s work – ie - God works through baptism. Listen closely to the man credited with coining the term “saved by faith alone”. Martin Luther understood correctly that baptism is essential to the gospel of Christ – baptism is a work of God…
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.. In these words you must note, in the first place, that here stand God's commandment and institution, lest we doubt that Baptism is divine, not devised nor invented by men…the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing, and that external things are of no benefit. But let it be ever so much an external thing here stand God's Word and command which institute, establish, and confirm Baptism… But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's… ~ Martin Luther
The form of doctrine delivered is not baptism. It is the gospel of Jesus Christ…

You are wrong again - the gospel of Christ includes the very words of Jesus – “go—teach…baptize” (Matthew 28). Baptism in water is an essential part of the good news and certainly it is part of the *doctrine delivered* – always has been and always will – until the end of the age.


I know no one that was born again at baptism. Everyone I know was born again before baptism.
Then you know many who have it wrong. Please provide the Bible version you use that states – “He who believes and is saved shall be baptized”. EVERY version I know of clearly renders the words of Jesus, “He who believes and is baptized [then] shall be saved.” You may be confused about the new birth – it is one birth with two elements – (1) born of water (baptism), (2) born of the Spirit.
"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (Joh 3:5 ESV).Peter told those believers on the day of Pentecost to “repent” and to be “baptized for the remission of their sins” and then they would they receive “the gift of the Holy Spirit”. This is the new birth - "the washing of regeneration (immersion in water) and renewing of the Holy Spirit…"
"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot
Mark 16:16 is to the nations and is after v15 -the gospel -repent/believe. Water is after as we see in Acts 10.
You remain confused regarding Mark 16:16. The Greek grammar is clear – both “believe” and “baptized” are aorist tense participles that express an action that occurs *prior to* (antecedent to) what happens in the leading verb. The leading verb in this passage is “shall be saved” and it represents that condition that comes into being after the antecedent actions (belief and baptism) have taken place. Listen to Lenski and Robertson. You need to re-think. Both belief and baptism come before one shall be saved just as Jesus stated.
“Both acts would precede the future act sothesetai [shall be saved].” ~ Lenski

The Greek never used the aorist participle for subsequent action. … The aorist participle may suggest simultaneous action ... or antecedent action.... The Aorist participle never gives subsequent action.... No such example has ever been found. ~ A.T. Robertson

[B]“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

Sirus
Mar 19th 2010, 03:35 AM
Yes – belief, repentance and baptism are all observed in all the conversions in Acts because all three *acts of obedience* are essential to the gospel of grace and all three come before one’s sins are remitted per Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16. I didn't say three, I said two are one so you should have said no but you didn't you said yes, which explains why you are so confused in this matter.

roaring tiger
Mar 19th 2010, 04:57 AM
Actually my friend there is no way we can “earn salvation” – salvation is God’s gift – salvation is, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

But we must “obey from the heart” the gospel of Christ and that gospel message certainly includes the command from the Lord to be immersed in water. We have been “made free from sin” by the blood of Christ as we obey His word – our obedience makes us free from sin as we became the servants of righteousness.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:17-23 KJV)
You never answered my question – if the baptism of Romans 6:3-5 is not baptism in water what is it? Are you of the KJV only persuasion?

Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
I'm very happy in deed that you pay attention with me,I see and feel you are exerting your whole effort to share whatsoever you have gain in your belief unto God.
Before I forget I would like to thank you for your best gratitude for me.
Now,once and for all I shall clarify my position on this matter;baptism into death.
Baptism in water is not the same as baptism into death.Baptism in water is to immersed or dip into water as a symbol,that the one being baptized thus believe on Christ.
Baptism into death, is a spiritual baptism with out water involve.read whole chapter of Rom.6 if you can see water has been mention there.
Neither the blood of Jesus was not given importance in this chapter.Know ye not,that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(no water mentioned)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the GLORY of the Father,even so even we also should walk in newness of life.
Fot if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death'we shall also in the likeness of his resurrection.
Shedding of Jesus precious blood is needed as a completion to finished the work God had task him to do.But this thing is metaphor,literal bood can not wash or clean anything.
His precious blood need be flow out with the inclusion of the water to fullfil what was witten in 1John 5:8 There are three that bear witness in earth,the spirit,and the water,and the blood:
and these three agree in one. What did these three agreed?LIFE.....In him was life and life is the light of man.
1 Jn.5:9 If we receive the witness of men,the witness of God is greater;for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
v.10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:he that believeth not God hath made him a liar;because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
v.12)He that hath the Son hath life;and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Heb.12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,and to the blood of springkling,that SPEAKETH better things than that of Able. Do you understand it's meaning?
Heb.3:7-8 Wherefore(as the Holy Ghost saith,To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts as in the provocation,in the day of temptation in the wilderness.
And if you hear it.....you are now anew man.....1Pe.1:23 Being born again,not of corruptible seed,but of incorruptible,by the Word of God,which liveth and abideth for ever.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

BroRog
Mar 19th 2010, 04:58 AM
Actually, Holy Writ clearly states we are baptized into Christ. Will the believer who refuses to be baptized in water be placed by God “into Christ” or must s/he first be immersed in water as commanded by Christ (Mark 16:16) in order to be found "in Christ"? Do you think Jesus meant what He said - "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved..."? Do you think “all spiritual blessings” are found “in Christ”?
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ. ~ Ephesians 1:3 Does this verse teach that “every spiritual blessing” is located in Christ? Do you believe only those who are in Christ can enjoy these spiritual blessings? Are believers “baptized into Christ” where we find “all spiritual blessings”? Are you sure we are not "baptized into Jesus Christ..."
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Rom 6:3 KJV)I stick by what I said. :)

losthorizon
Mar 19th 2010, 12:47 PM
I stick by what I said. :)
But your sectarian view does not trump God’s word that clearly states we are *baptized into Christ*…"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.... God bless."

losthorizon
Mar 19th 2010, 12:52 PM
I didn't say three, I said two are one so you should have said no but you didn't you said yes, which explains why you are so confused in this matter.
It doesn’t matter what you say – what matters is what the word of God says and His word is clear - belief, repentance and baptism are *acts of obedience* - they are all three essential to the gospel of grace and all three come before one’s sins are remitted per Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16.

losthorizon
Mar 19th 2010, 01:05 PM
Baptism into death, is a spiritual baptism with out water involve.read whole chapter of Rom.6 if you can see water has been mention there.


RT - the *new birth* - the birth from above is a birth that includes being “born of water (baptism) and the Spirit” (John 3:5). To fail to recognize that the baptism in Romans 6:3-5 is a *burial in water* is to miss much and your misunderstanding of this biblical fact will leave you forever confused about what the passage means. You may want to study a bit more on the subject. Peace.

roaring tiger
Mar 19th 2010, 02:03 PM
RT - the *new birth* - the birth from above is a birth that includes being “born of water (baptism) and the Spirit” (John 3:5). To fail to recognize that the baptism in Romans 6:3-5 is a *burial in water* is to miss much and your misunderstanding of this biblical fact will leave you forever confused about what the passage means. You may want to study a bit more on the subject. Peace.

losthorizon greetings;
Okay,I shall not refute your opinion pertaining to John 3:5 even I do not confirm with your view but because water is clearly indicated in that scripture.But I told you that water is is not the same or very different in baptism into death.
Do not insist firmly that immersion or burial in water is baptism in death because you are seriously wrong.It can be a burial in water if you will immerse the subject person for about thirty minutes and the person died.
If you want to learn how to be baptized into death,review or reread this thread and if still you cannot understand pray to God to give you knowledge and wisdom.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom ask of God,that giveth to all men liberally,and upbraideth not;and it shall be given him.
Thank you very much.
in love of Christ./RT.

BroRog
Mar 19th 2010, 04:15 PM
But your sectarian view does not trump God’s word that clearly states we are *baptized into Christ*…"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.... God bless."With regard to Romans 6, Paul's focus and emphasis is not on the act, but on the meaning behind the act. His argument builds on the meaning behind the act of baptism. What were you doing when you got in the water? What message were you sending? Paul is saying something like, "Don't you know that when a follower of Christ got into the water to make his or her confession of faith, he identified with the death of Christ, agreeing with God that we deserved to get what Christ got?" His whole argument is based on what the baptism meant, not on the act itself. Anyone who makes that confession, whether they got into a bath of water or not, falls into that criteria.

losthorizon
Mar 19th 2010, 05:21 PM
With regard to Romans 6, Paul's focus and emphasis is not on the act, but on the meaning behind the act.


And who disagrees with this?


Anyone who makes that confession, whether they got into a bath of water or not, falls into that criteria.

So you say - ‘he who believes and confesses shall be saved and then if he has time he should get baptized’? Jesus says, “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved”. You say one is not baptized into Jesus Christ but Paul clearly states only the one who believes and is baptized in water is truly *baptized into Jesus Christ* through the operation of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry Rog, I will have to go with what Jesus and Paul say…”arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling upon the name of the Lord”
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. ~ Mark 16:16

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? ~ Romans 6:3

losthorizon
Mar 19th 2010, 05:27 PM
Do not insist firmly that immersion or burial in water is baptism in death because you are seriously wrong.It can be a burial in water if you will immerse the subject person for about thirty minutes and the person died.


Again - any one who misses the truth that the baptism in Romans 6:3-5 is a *burial in water* misses much and such a misunderstanding of this biblical fact will leave you confused and about what the passage means.

BroRog
Mar 19th 2010, 06:21 PM
And who disagrees with this? Apparently you do, or so you seem.


So you say - ‘he who believes and confesses shall be saved and then if he has time he should get baptized’?No, I say he who believes and follows Jesus, not only affirming the truth, but living the truth, he shall save.


Jesus says, “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved”. You say one is not baptized into Jesus Christ but Paul clearly states only the one who believes and is baptized in water is truly *baptized into Jesus Christ* through the operation of the Holy Spirit. Your insistence on some kind of water baptism misses the point entirely. Water baptism is simply a ceremony, and like all ceremony the significance of the act is only as good as the genuineness and authenticity of the faith of those who get in the water, and what they intend to communicate through that act. But the ceremony is totally unnecessary if a person has a genuine faith and has made a commitment to follow Jesus. That person has what the ceremony represents. As Paul argues in Galatians, if you have Christ, why do you need the ritual? His answer: you don't.


Sorry Rog, I will have to go with what Jesus and Paul say…”arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling upon the name of the Lord.Again, it isn't that simple. Mark 16:16 isn't suggesting that the baptism ceremony is what saves you. What saves us is our believing in Jesus and becoming his disciple, which is what the baptism ceremony represents. If the baptism ceremony doesn't represent a commitment to becoming a disciple of Jesus, then it means nothing at all. And if a person is already a disciple of Jesus and believes in him, the baptism ceremony is superfluous, serving no useful purpose. The only time a water baptism counts, the only time it serves a useful purpose is if, through the ceremony, the initiate communicates "from this moment forward I will follow Jesus, obey his teachings, strive for purity, live a new life, and trust in him for eternal life." If the baptism means anything else, i.e. membership in a church, membership into the Catholic church, entering into a covenant relationship, or anything else, it isn't what Mark 16:16 was talking about.

Jemand
Mar 19th 2010, 07:27 PM
It doesn’t matter what you say – what matters is what the word of God says and His word is clear - belief, repentance and baptism are *acts of obedience* - they are all three essential to the gospel of grace and all three come before one’s sins are remitted per Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16.

[Mark 16:16. “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”]

The ancient manuscript evidence for and against Mark 18:9-20 is mixed. This evidence includes ancient manuscripts of Mark in Greek, Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, and Armenian, and the writings of the Early Church Fathers. The passage is unquestionably very ancient because it is found in The Diatessaron of Tatian written if in the second century. However, a number of the ancient manuscripts that do include it also include either notes stating that it is absent in yet older Greek manuscripts, or mark it with asterisks or obeli to indicate that it is a spurious addition. Other ancient manuscripts include two endings, this long ending and an intermediate ending. Yet other ancient manuscripts include an expansion to the long ending found in Mark 18:9-20.

However, the internal evidence in Mark 16 is decidedly against the genuineness of vv. 9-20. Bruce Metzger, in his The Text of the New Testament, summarizes that evidence as follows:


For example, the presence of seventeen non-Marcan words or words used in a non-Marcan sense; the lack of a smooth juncture between verses 8 and 9 (the subject in vs. 8 is the woman, whereas Jesus is the presumed subject in v. 9); and the way in which Mary is identified in verse 9 even though she has been mentioned previously (vs. 1)—all these features indicate that the section was added by someone who wished to provide a more appropriate conclusion.

Ezra P. Gould, the late Professor of the New Testament Literature and Language and the author of A Critical and Exegetical Commentary of the Gospel According to St. Mark, has, in the appendix at the end of his commentary, the following comment on Mark 16:16,


We have here a group of things common to the apostolic teaching, but new to the Gospels. This is the first mention of baptism since the baptism of John. In the fourth Gospel even, it is not mentioned after the early Judean ministry of our Lord. Then, while faith is enjoined in Jesus’ teaching, it is nowhere, in the Synoptics, singled out as the condition of salvation, as, of course, baptism is not, since it is not mentioned at all. In fact if one should gather up into a single statement our Lord’s teaching about the condition of salvation, the necessary attitude of men towards the word, it would be obedience. This statement inaugurates and prepares the way the apostolic teaching.

Therefore, even if Mark 16:9-20 is genuine Scripture, Mark, along with the other gospel writers, is not teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation—he is telling us why obedience to the command to preach the gospel to all creation is important, as also did Paul,

Rom. 10:12. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13. for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14. How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

In the Early Church, new believers were baptized in water upon their rebirth.

Acts 10:44. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47. “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
48. And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

In Acts 10, the gentiles heard the gospel, believed it, were born again (the proof being that they had received the gift of the Holy Spirit), and were baptized in water.

Now, let us take another look at Mark 16:16,

[Mark 16:16. “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”]

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved;” These words tell us very clearly that the consequence of belief in the gospel and water baptism is the person's salvation, but they do NOT tell us that either belief or water baptism are necessary for salvation; perhaps other things also have the consequence of salvation.

“but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” These words, however, tell us very clearly that belief in the gospel [but not water baptism] is necessary for salvation.

Acts 2:38. Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Peter learned later (Acts 10:44-48) that God has not ordained a rigid pattern of events for one to be saved, and that water does not always precede salvation.

Acts 22:16. “Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.”

We do not find in this passage Paul teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation. What we do find is Ananias telling Paul what he needed to do.

I was saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit a few weeks before I had the opportunity to be baptized in water, and my baptism in the Holy Spirit was a very sudden, life-changing experience. I literally became a new man in Christ.

(All quotations from Scripture are form the NASB, 1995)

losthorizon
Mar 19th 2010, 10:21 PM
The ancient manuscript evidence for and against Mark 18:9-20 is mixed. This evidence includes ancient manuscripts of Mark in Greek, Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, and Armenian, and the writings of the Early Church Fathers...

<snip>


Hi Jemand - regarding your attempt to impeach God’s word revealed in the “longer ending” of Mark is it your position that God was unable to preserve His written word? Is the article you present your work or a 'copy and paste' from an unnamed source (I didn’t see a source notated)? Can you defend the position taken in the article?

The truth is Mark 16: 9-20 appears in over 99% of the Greek manuscripts and it was quoted by the ‘church fathers’ shortly after the apostolic era. There is no reason to think it not inspired by God.
No writer before Eusebius [(c. AD 260-340) court favorite and church historian in the days of the Roman emperor Constantine] is known to have rejected them [Mark 16: 9-21], and their presence in all later MSS [manuscripts] shows that the successors of Eusebius, in spite of his great authority, did not follow his judgment in the matter. ~ James HastingsQuestion for you to clarify your position – do the words of Jesus in Mark 16:16 - “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” – contradict any other passage in the Bible, i.e., does the fact that both belief and baptism precede “shall be saved” disagree with any NT doctrine?
Justin Martyr…who died in A.D. 165, wrote in his First Apology ch. 45 that the apostles "going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere." The words "going... preached everywhere" represent three Greek words identical to Greek words used in Mark 16:20, including the somewhat rare word pantachou. A comparison of this paragraph of Justin's work shows that it is highly likely that he was borrowing his terms from the Long Ending [Mark 16:9-20] …the earliest evidence for the inclusion of Mark 16:9-20 pre-dates the earliest evidence for its non-inclusion. Also, the evidence for patristic use of the Long Ending is spread over a broad area: Justin (in Rome), Irenaeus (in Gaul [France]), Eusebius (in Caesarea [in Israel], Vincentius (in North Africa), and Tatian and Aphraates (in Syria). Against this, the ancient Greek evidence for non-inclusion is confined to Egypt (and Caesarea, but this is because the library at Caesarea included Egyptian manuscripts). The implication of this is that copies of Mark containing the Long Ending were in use at all these locations. And the blank column in Vaticanus suggests that the Long Ending was known in Egypt too. ~ Wikipedia licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License

losthorizon
Mar 19th 2010, 10:54 PM
Apparently you do, or so you seem.


But I always emphasize the meaning and intent of what baptism symbolizes. I think you simply say what you say as another straw-man.


No, I say he who believes and follows Jesus, not only affirming the truth, but living the truth, he shall save.
But if one truly, “believes and follows Jesus” wouldn’t that person obey the Lord’s teaching to be immersed in water…”go…teach…baptize”? Where is your consistency my friend? Does Jesus command baptism in water?
"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him… He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved…”
Your insistence on some kind of water baptism misses the point entirely. Water baptism is simply a ceremony, and like all ceremony the significance of the act is only as good as the genuineness and authenticity of the faith of those who get in the water, and what they intend to communicate through that act.

Actually, baptism is an ordinance of the Lord’s church instituted and commanded by God and it is not an *option* as you appear to teach. Do you think baptism in water is an option?


But the ceremony is totally unnecessary if a person has a genuine faith and has made a commitment to follow Jesus.

Do you really have the authority to change God’s word? Baptism is essential to the gospel of grace. Anything commanded by God becomes essential the moment it is commanded.


Again, it isn't that simple. Mark 16:16 isn't suggesting that the baptism ceremony is what saves you.

Straw-man again Rog – I have stated more than once that the blood of Christ alone completely and finally saves our souls. Baptism remains what God designed it to be – it is a pledge of a clear conscience to God that points us to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism remains what God ordained it to be – an essential part of His plan to save our race through the blood of Jesus Christ. This remains an easy concept unless one has a sectarian dogma to protect.

…eight persons, were saved by water...

Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pe 3:20-21 ISV)

1 Peter 3:21. Baptism - Not the mere application of water, for that idea the apostle expressly disclaims, when he says that it involves not “putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us. ~ Albert Barnes

Sirus
Mar 20th 2010, 12:04 AM
It doesn’t matter what you say – what matters is what the word of God saysagreed


and His word is clear - belief, repentance and baptism are *acts of obedience* - they are all three essential to the gospel of graceAgreed, except for the word essential which cuts those out that do not have the opportunity or do not know having never heard.


and all three come before one’s sins are remitted per Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16.These say no such thing.

BroRog
Mar 20th 2010, 12:39 AM
But I always emphasize the meaning and intent of what baptism symbolizes.Not in discussions with me.


But if one truly, “believes and follows Jesus” wouldn’t that person obey the Lord’s teaching to be immersed in water…”go…teach…baptize”?Jesus command his apostles to make disciples in his name, which involved the ceremony of water baptism. If a person becomes a disciple of Jesus, baptism is superfluous.


Where is your consistency my friend? Does Jesus command baptism in water?No. He commands that we follow him.


Actually, baptism is an ordinance of the Lord’s church instituted and commanded by God and it is not an *option* as you appear to teach. Do you think baptism in water is an option?No, I believe baptism is totally unnecessary today, and it can be counter productive and antithetical to faith unless a person participates in the ceremony of baptism for the right reason, which is to announce that he or she has become a disciple of Jesus.


Do you really have the authority to change God’s word? Baptism is essential to the gospel of grace. Anything commanded by God becomes essential the moment it is commanded.
I have the authority to read his word and understand what it says. The idea that Baptism is an ordinance is not found anywhere in the Bible. And furthermore, John baptized with water, Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.


Straw-man again Rog – I have stated more than once that the blood of Christ alone completely and finally saves our souls.Well, you are wrong again. The blood of Christ brings reconciliation between God and man. But unless a man believes, repents and follows the teachings of Jesus, he can not be saved. The blood alone is not enough.


Baptism remains what God ordained it to be – an essential part of His plan to save our race through the blood of Jesus Christ. This remains an easy concept unless one has a sectarian dogma to protect. To suggest that water baptism is essential is to suggest that God needs magic in order to save us. An appeal for a good conscience is not enough, but rather, according to you, a person must be standing in a tub of water while making his appeal, which means that water is some kind of ingredient essential to the technique of salvation.

You cited 1Peter 3:21 without understanding that Peter clearly defines baptism as an appeal for a good conscience, not water baptism. When he says, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" he means "not water baptism." Baptism saves you but not water baptism, but an appeal for a good conscience. Here again we see that the Apostle is concerned with the meaning behind the act, not the act itself. Just as Paul used the meaning behind the act of baptism to make his point in Romans 6, Peter is making his point with the meaning behind the act here in 1Peter 3. He is not concerned at all with the act of baptism, only with what the act means.

roaring tiger
Mar 20th 2010, 01:25 AM
Again - any one who misses the truth that the baptism in Romans 6:3-5 is a *burial in water* misses much and such a misunderstanding of this biblical fact will leave you confused and about what the passage means.

Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
Again-you misses the truth that the baptism in water is different than to be baptize into death.Water baptism is a ceremonial act while you immerse in tub,but to be baptize into death is a spiritual baptism that Jesus has the sole
authority which he perform thru the Holy Ghost.
Thank you and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

losthorizon
Mar 20th 2010, 12:43 PM
Jesus command his apostles to make disciples in his name, which involved the ceremony of water baptism. If a person becomes a disciple of Jesus, baptism is superfluous.


You are sadly mistaken my friend – Jesus commanded baptism in water and one who has not been “baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” cannot and will not be a disciple of Jesus Christ. His disciples remain those (and only those) who have been *baptized into Christ Jesus* - baptized into His death…”For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Mat 28:18-20 ESV)
No, I believe baptism is totally unnecessary today….
So your theology says to hell with baptism? It is sad to see those who reject the full council of God. I will pray for you Rog – you go beyond confusion into egregious error. I will leave you with the words of my favorite Calvinist preacher, Charles Spurgeon. In his sermon entitled, “He that Believes and is Baptized shall be Saved” he answered the question about the essential nature of baptism in water…
“What do you mean by ‘nonessential’? ‘I mean that I can be saved without being baptized.’ Will you dare to say that wicked sentence over again? ‘I mean that I can be saved without being baptized.’ You mean creature! So you will do nothing that Christ commands, if you can be saved without doing it? You are hardly worth saving at all! A man who always wants to be paid for what he does, whose one idea of religion is that he will do what is essential to his own salvation, only cares to save his own skin, and Christ may go where he likes. Clearly, you are no servant of his; you need to be saved from such a disreputable, miserable state of mind; and may the Lord save you! Oftentimes, I do believe that this little matter of believers’ baptism is the test of the sincerity of our profession of love to him.”



To suggest that water baptism is essential is to suggest that God needs magic in order to save us.

Rog, Rog – what kind of nonsense do you spew? Jesus is clear – the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved – it cannot be any clearer. The wanton neglect of baptism can damn the soul. You need to re-think.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mar 16:16 ESV)

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry


He is not concerned at all with the act of baptism, only with what the act means.


“Truth Crushed to Ground Shall Rise Again!” The truth of God remains – God is concerned with the act of baptism - it was instituted and commanded by God - baptism is not from man. Baptism is and always has been an essential part of God plan to save our race – those who call upon the name of the Lord and are baptized in water in obedience to the Lord’s command to be baptized will have their sins washed away by the cleansing blood of Christ. In your confusion you teach error.
"Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

losthorizon
Mar 20th 2010, 02:53 PM
The follow is an excerpt from:

John Piper Series on Christian Baptism
By John Piper

Pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church
Minneapolis, MN 55415

http://www.gracesermons.com/robbeeee/4partbaptism.html
Jesus made baptism part of his ministry and part of our mission. Baptism is not man's idea. It was God's idea. It is not a denominational thing. It is a Biblical thing...At the end of his earthly ministry Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Mat_28:19). So Jesus made baptism part of his ministry and part of our mission.

So when Romans 6:3-4a says that we are baptized into Christ and into his death, I take it to mean that baptism expresses the faith in which we experience union with Christ. This is presumably why God designed the mode of baptism to portray a burial. It represents the death that we experience when we are united to Christ. This is why we are immersed: it's a symbolic burial.

So know, believer, that you have died. The old unbelieving, rebellious "I" has been crucified with Christ. This is what your baptism meant and means.

...the practice of baptism was universal in the early church. It was not just for converted Jews or converted gentiles, or any one specific church. It was practiced for all converts in all the churches. We know of no unbaptized believers...in Romans 6 Paul says to a church that he has never visited (in answer to a question whether Christians can sin that grace may abound), "How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?" (Romans 6:2-3).

In other words, he bases his argument that Christians can't go on willfully sinning on the fact that we have all died with Christ, as baptism shows. Dead men don't sin. He assumes that the Roman believers were all baptized, and he was simply reminding them what it stood for. It was a universal, defining experience in the early church. If we are to be in sync with the entire New Testament and the entire early church we must take baptism seriously and practice it faithfully...

And if you ask what the decisive, public way of taking a Christian stand was in the New Testament, the answer is, baptism. The message Peter gave in Acts 2 ended with the words, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ" (Acts 2:38). Our renewed conviction is that we need to regularly offer baptism as the decisive public way for people to respond publicly to the gospel.

Baptism portrays what happened to us when we became Christians. This is what happened to us: we were united to Christ. His death became our death. We died with him. And in the same instant, his life became our life. We are now living out the life of Christ in us. And all this is experienced through faith.

This is what it means to be a Christian - to live in the reality of what our baptism portrays: day by day we look away from ourselves to God and say, "Because of Christ, your Son, I come to you. In him I belong to you. I am at home with you. He is my only hope of acceptance with you. I receive that acceptance anew every day. My hope is based on his death for me and my death in him. My life in him is a life of faith in you, Father. Because of him I trust your working in me and for me. The same power and glory that you used to raise him from the dead you will use to help me. In that promise of future grace I believe, and in that I hope. That is what makes my life new. O Christ, how I glory in what my baptism portrays! Thank you for dying my death for me and giving new life to me. Amen."

BroRog
Mar 20th 2010, 06:22 PM
You are sadly mistaken my friend – Jesus commanded baptism in water and one who has not been “baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” cannot and will not be a disciple of Jesus Christ. His disciples remain those (and only those) who have been *baptized into Christ Jesus* - baptized into His death…”For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Mat 28:18-20 ESV)

I wish to make two comments with regard to Matthew 28:18-20. First, I take note of which servants are hearing this command, and by implication, which servants are not under this command. Jesus was talking to whom? What group? To answer this we go back two verses.



But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them . . . And so we see that Jesus was talking to the eleven. Jesus was not going to be around to advance his teaching and to make disciples for himself. Instead, he has assigned this task to those who would stay behind. The Father has given authority to Jesus, and Jesus is now giving authority to eleven men whom he chose. These men are to make disciples in his name. Not all disciples, not all followers of Jesus have this authority. But some men do, and others that follow these eleven will have the authority to make disciples for Jesus. And so, the commandment is given, not to all believers, but to those believers who have this special role to play. Jesus is speaking to his eleven and all other men or women who have been given the job of making disciples for Jesus.

The command is not given to prospective believers, since as a prospective believer he or she is not under the authority of Jesus. Before a person becomes a disciple, he or she is not under servitude to Jesus. He certainly has the right and authority to command a nonbeliever to get baptized, but if he did, the baptism wouldn't mean much. Jesus wants voluntary believers and servants, not those who are compelled to believe. He does not command us to be baptized. He commands his servants who have the job of making disciples to baptize others in his name.

The second thing to note is that the command is to make disciples in his name. The verb in this sentence is "make disciples" not baptize. Baptizing and teaching are two activities that teachers perform with their students. Unlike teaching, however, baptism has no intrinsic value or significance on its own. Baptism in water, is not inseparable from the meaning behind it. Baptism in water can mean any number of things to any number of people depending on cultural convention. Baptism is a cultural practice, performed by many religions and spiritual groups, which is not unique to the Judaism of Christ's day or the Christianity of our day.

To suggest that Christ commanded baptism is to miss the point entirely. Since baptism was one of the many activities that accompanied becoming a disciple, it had become common practice to use the term "baptize", which is a word that denotes one thing, to refer to the related and more significant thing, "become a disciple of Jesus." Since the act of baptism has no intrinsic significance of its own, relying on cultural convention for relevance and meaning, and since Baptism has lost its original meaning and purpose, it has ceased to function in the way Jesus intended. To insist that someone get baptized today is to place a burden on believers today that Jesus never intended.


So your theology says to hell with baptism?My theology says to hell with 2000 year-old ritual practices that have no basis in the original Biblical intent. You can put it on the shelf with circumcision, which was cut into millions of male babies in the United States for medical reasons, devoid of any meaning at all let alone a commitment to the covenant at Mt. Sinai. Like circumcision done for medical reasons, baptism has no real significance or meaning in modern times.


Rog, Rog – what kind of nonsense do you spew? Jesus is clear – the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved – it cannot be any clearer.I think it is clear too. It's clear to me that baptism was never a means unto itself, but a physical act that points to another idea: becoming a disciple and all that implied. The act of becoming a disciple was not called by it's own name but in service to the efficiency of language, was called by a shorter, related name "baptism." In a transferred sense, the term "baptism" became the short hand word for "shed your old life, put on a new life, commit yourself to acts in keeping with repentance, study and follow Jesus, and live your life based on what he teaches you." If the Apostles had to say all of that each time they spoke, it would be too tedious for those who hear.


The wanton neglect of baptism can damn the soul.You really are exaggerating and overstating the case. Your hyperbolic view of the ritual, i.e. that God instituted the ritual, doesn't fit the facts of history. Initiation rituals, both religious and non-religious are found in many cultures and many religions all over the world. Baptism IS from man and it has no intrinsic meaning in itself, but takes it's meaning from cultural convention. Baptism is what the initiate did when he "called on the name of the Lord" but the Lord will hear whether he or she is standing in a bucket of water or not.

losthorizon
Mar 20th 2010, 07:23 PM
I wish to make two comments with regard to Matthew 28:18-20. First, I take note of which servants are hearing this command, and by implication, which servants are not under this command. Jesus was talking to whom? What group?

<snip>

the eleven disciples


You’re wrong of course - Jesus calls on *all disciples* in every age to finish what He began – taking the “good news” to the entire world. He has given the apostles along with all Christians the commission to convert the world. You remain very confused.


The second thing to note is that the command is to make disciples in his name. The verb in this sentence is "make disciples" not baptize.

Correction – “make disciples” is the main verb of the passage and there are three participles dependent upon the *main verb*. The three participles are, “go”, “baptize” and “teach” and they are rendered imperatives because of their dependence on the main verb. The defining participles are “baptizing” and “teaching”. The church of God from the apostolic era, until today and until the Lord comes again is commanded to go...baptize...teach *all believers* of “all nations” and to baptize ALL who "call upon the name of the Lord" in *all nation*. The NT does not know of an unbaptized Christian. Why?


My theology says to hell with 2000 year-old ritual practices that have no basis in the original Biblical intent.
And your theology is poor theology. Again, the question that begs Rog – are you authorized by God to send His holy ordinance of baptism to hell? I think not – you may be important in your own mind but you do not have the authority to destroy that which God commands. Your 'logic' is sad. You need to re-think.


I think it is clear too. It's clear to me that baptism was never a means unto itself, but a physical act that points to another idea: becoming a disciple and all that implied.
Baptism is what it always has been - a NT ordinance commanded by God that signifies our dying and rising with Christ by faith. Through baptism believers are *united with Christ* in his death, burial, and resurrection (Rom_6:3-5), i.e., baptism signifies our participation in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ just as it signifies the washing away of our sins by the blood of Christ (Act_22:16). Baptism is a sign of spiritual cleansing and while baptism should never be separated from that to which it signifies, conversely - the thing signified should never be expected without the sign.
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (Rom 6:3-5 ESV)

Steven3
Mar 21st 2010, 12:34 PM
Hi Roaring Tiger
Rom.6:3Know ye not,that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death.
Rom.6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom.6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,we shall be also in the
likeness of his resurrection.


Paul is saying:
6:3 - the Christian's burial in water (eg Col.2) is an identification with Christ's burial in Hades (Acts 2 etc).
6:4 - So if we identify with his death in this life we should also identify/follow his resurrection in this life (Col.3:1 etc) and live a new life.
6:5 - and if we do that then we will be raised from Hades as he was when he comes (1Co15:20-23 etc).

Sirus
Mar 21st 2010, 03:12 PM
Hi Roaring Tiger

Paul is saying:
6:3 - the Christian's burial in water (eg Col.2) is an identification with Christ's burial in Hades (Acts 2 etc).
6:4 - So if we identify with his death in this life we should also identify/follow his resurrection in this life (Col.3:1 etc) and live a new life.
6:5 - and if we do that then we will be raised from Hades as he was when he comes (1Co15:20-23 etc).The problem with saying it is water baptism is believers experience the truths of Romans 6-8 (newness of life in the Spirit) before they are water baptized.

Jemand
Mar 21st 2010, 05:17 PM
Hi Jemand - regarding your attempt to impeach God’s word revealed in the “longer ending” of Mark is it your position that God was unable to preserve His written word?

No, it is not my position that God was unable to preserve His written word. Nonetheless, the original document containing the Gospel According to Mark has been lost, and the copies that have come down to us show definite signs of having been redacted.


Is the article you present your work or a 'copy and paste' from an unnamed source (I didn’t see a source notated)? Can you defend the position taken in the article?

No, I did not copy an article and represent it as being my own work. It is my own writing, except for the two quotes included in it for which I gave credit to Metzger and Gould respectively.


The truth is Mark 16: 9-20 appears in over 99% of the Greek manuscripts and it was quoted by the ‘church fathers’ shortly after the apostolic era. There is no reason to think it not inspired by God.
No writer before Eusebius [(c. AD 260-340) court favorite and church historian in the days of the Roman emperor Constantine] is known to have rejected them [Mark 16: 9-21], and their presence in all later MSS [manuscripts] shows that the successors of Eusebius, in spite of his great authority, did not follow his judgment in the matter. ~ James HastingsQuestion for you to clarify your position – do the words of Jesus in Mark 16:16 - “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” – contradict any other passage in the Bible, i.e., does the fact that both belief and baptism precede “shall be saved” disagree with any NT doctrine?
Justin Martyr…who died in A.D. 165, wrote in his First Apology ch. 45 that the apostles "going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere." The words "going... preached everywhere" represent three Greek words identical to Greek words used in Mark 16:20, including the somewhat rare word pantachou. A comparison of this paragraph of Justin's work shows that it is highly likely that he was borrowing his terms from the Long Ending [Mark 16:9-20] …the earliest evidence for the inclusion of Mark 16:9-20 pre-dates the earliest evidence for its non-inclusion. Also, the evidence for patristic use of the Long Ending is spread over a broad area: Justin (in Rome), Irenaeus (in Gaul [France]), Eusebius (in Caesarea [in Israel], Vincentius (in North Africa), and Tatian and Aphraates (in Syria). Against this, the ancient Greek evidence for non-inclusion is confined to Egypt (and Caesarea, but this is because the library at Caesarea included Egyptian manuscripts). The implication of this is that copies of Mark containing the Long Ending were in use at all these locations. And the blank column in Vaticanus suggests that the Long Ending was known in Egypt too. ~ Wikipedia licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License

No one denies that the longer ending of Mark’s Gospel is very ancient. That fact, however, does not prove it to be genuine Scripture; neither does it eliminate the contextual problems summarized by Metzger.

Butch5
Mar 21st 2010, 05:17 PM
Hi Roaring Tiger

Paul is saying:
6:3 - the Christian's burial in water (eg Col.2) is an identification with Christ's burial in Hades (Acts 2 etc).
6:4 - So if we identify with his death in this life we should also identify/follow his resurrection in this life (Col.3:1 etc) and live a new life.
6:5 - and if we do that then we will be raised from Hades as he was when he comes (1Co15:20-23 etc).

I agree Steven, I believe Paul makes this point very clear.

Sirus
Mar 21st 2010, 05:19 PM
I agree Steven, I believe Paul makes this point very clear.The problem with saying it is water baptism is believers experience the truths of Romans 6-8 (newness of life in the Spirit) before they are water baptized.

Jemand
Mar 21st 2010, 05:34 PM
1 Peter 3:18. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19. in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20. who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Peter finds here a correspondence between the water of the flood and the water of baptism. The water of the flood lifted the Ark and the eight persons aboard it up out the sinful world that was being destroyed. Corresponding to that, water baptism, when it is not merely the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience, now saves us. Compare Colossians 1:9-14,

Col. 1:9. For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
10. so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11. strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously
12. giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
13. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

The water of the flood lifted the Ark and the eight persons aboard it up out the sinful world that was being destroyed; Christ “rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son.”

Peter sees salvation being accomplished through water baptism. Paul apparently did also,

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7. so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Paul clearly states here that God our Savior “saved us… by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” Paul and Peter were both Jews, and to a Jew washing with water for spiritual cleaning and water baptism were very closely related to each other. The very large majority of New Testament scholars believe that both Paul and Peter taught that water baptism is effectual for the salvation, and the Early Church Fathers taught that God’s Grace for salvation was conferred upon believers through water baptism. This appears to me to have been the case in the Early Church, not as the exclusive means of conferring grace, but as the typical means. In Acts 10:44, we find a definite exception, and in my experience, the exception has become the norm.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

Butch5
Mar 21st 2010, 05:54 PM
The problem with saying it is water baptism is believers experience the truths of Romans 6-8 (newness of life in the Spirit) before they are water baptized.

You're entitled to that opinion.

roaring tiger
Mar 21st 2010, 06:08 PM
Hi Roaring Tiger

Paul is saying:
6:3 - the Christian's burial in water (eg Col.2) is an identification with Christ's burial in Hades (Acts 2 etc).
6:4 - So if we identify with his death in this life we should also identify/follow his resurrection in this life (Col.3:1 etc) and live a new life.
6:5 - and if we do that then we will be raised from Hades as he was when he comes (1Co15:20-23 etc).

Hi!!!Steven3 greetings;
I'm very glad that you respond with this thread,prove that you are a true believer of our Lord Jesus.I welcome you to exchange with our brother and sister who may seek further enlightment
in knowing about God.I read thoroughly the scripture you gave me and I pick three in Col.2:11-13
v.11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made with out hands, in putting off
the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.
v.12) Burried in him in baptism,wherein ye are also risen with him through the faith of the opertion
of God,who hath raised him from the dead.
v.13) And you being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,hath be quickened
together with him,having forgiven you all trespasses.
This three verses is related to baptism into death,so, let us study it step by step.
This is my view in v.11 that we being sinners must repent for forgiveness of our sin.
v.12)(Rom.6:4)Burried in him by baptism was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father.
(comment)we can only be raised with him if you can beheld the glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.Joh.1:14.
v.13)We are forgiven of our trespasses through the shedding of Jesus blood that speaketh or by knowing his name.1Joh.1:12.
I nowhere find in whole chapter of Col.2 which was related to water baptism.I also read whole
chapter 2 of Acts but it is a baptism in Spirit which was a parallel of baptism into death.
Rom.6:5- 1Co.15:20-23 This scripture is showing what we will gain if we had been baptized into death.Col.3:4 When Christ,who is our life,shall appear,then shall also appear with him in glory.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Sirus
Mar 21st 2010, 06:14 PM
You're entitled to that opinion.It is not an opinion it is a fact. One that everyone testifies to and therefore cannot deny. Are you going to tell me you have not seen this or maybe even experienced the same? Were you born again and water baptized the same day? Not very many are. I don't know of any, yet all produced fruit before water baptism. You cannot say our experience cannot change what scripture says, because that's the point. Scripture does not say God operates one way in this regard. In fact it plainly tells us He does not. Sorry. You'll just have to work that truth into your theology.

Butch5
Mar 21st 2010, 06:26 PM
It is not an opinion it is a fact. One that everyone testifies to and therefore cannot deny. Are you going to tell me you have not seen this or maybe even experienced the same? Were you born again and water baptized the same day? Not very many are. I don't know of any, yet all produced fruit before water baptism. You cannot say our experience cannot change what scripture says, because that's the point. Scripture does not say God operates one way in this regard. In fact it plainly tells us He does not. Sorry. You'll just have to work that truth into your theology.


You cannot say our experience cannot change what scripture says, because that's the point.

That speaks volumes my friend. I'll stick with Scripture.

Sirus
Mar 21st 2010, 06:41 PM
That speaks volumes my friend. I'll stick with Scripture.Again, that is the point.
Mat 7:16-21, 10:32, 12:33, 50
Gal 5:22-23
Eph 5:9-10
Joh 15:2-5
and so on and so on and so on............

losthorizon
Mar 21st 2010, 06:45 PM
No, it is not my position that God was unable to preserve His written word. Nonetheless, the original document containing the Gospel According to Mark has been lost, and the copies that have come down to us show definite signs of having been redacted.

Is it your position that a redaction rules out a Markan authorship? Do you believe the longer version is not inspired of God?


No one denies that the longer ending of Mark’s Gospel is very ancient. That fact, however, does not prove it to be genuine Scripture; neither does it eliminate the contextual problems summarized by Metzger.

But doesn’t Metzger accept the ‘longer version’ as part of the canonical text of Mark as do most scholars? Does Metzger note any contradiction between the longer version of Mark and any other NT passage? Does Metzger say the longer version is not God-inspired or does he believe the text is - in fact - an “evangelic accounts of events subsequent to the resurrection”?
"Since Mark was not responsible for the composition of the last twelve verses of the generally current form of his Gospel, and since they undoubtedly had been attached to the Gospel before the Church recognized the fourfold Gospels as canonical, it follows that the New Testament contains not four but five evangelic accounts of events subsequent to the resurrection." ~ B.M.Metzger, The Text of the New Testament (Oxford). Does Jesus mean what He says in verse 16, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved…” Do belief and baptism precede "shall be saved"?
"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

Steven3
Mar 22nd 2010, 01:19 AM
It is not an opinion it is a fact. One that everyone testifies to and therefore cannot deny. Are you going to tell me you have not seen this or maybe even experienced the same? Were you born again and water baptized the same day? Not very many are. I don't know of any, yet all produced fruit before water baptism. You cannot say our experience cannot change what scripture says, because that's the point. Scripture does not say God operates one way in this regard. In fact it plainly tells us He does not. Sorry. You'll just have to work that truth into your theology.

Well as Romans 5,6 shows it's a process with :
repentance -> act of water baptism -> new life in a figurative resurrection -> partaking in literal resurrection when Christ comes.

Of course any act will only be a point of time in this process (cf. Titus 3:5). The point is there is no alternative process:
repentance -> disobedience -> new life in a figurative resurrection -> partaking in literal resurrection when Christ comes.

Sirus
Mar 22nd 2010, 01:46 AM
I said nothing of the process. Do you deny the fact people are changed before water baptism or not?

losthorizon
Mar 22nd 2010, 01:57 AM
Do you deny the fact people are changed before water baptism or not?
Were Paul's sin washed away by the blood of Christ before water baptism? He was certainly "changed" when he met Christ on the road to Damascus but by his own account his sins were not washed away until he obeyed his Lord in baptism. Your point regarding "change" is simply a moot point - it means nothing. Were you baptized into the death of Christ - "do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death"? Can one be saved without being baptized into union with Christ Jesus?
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'
(Act 22:16 ESV)

roaring tiger
Mar 22nd 2010, 02:46 AM
I agree Steven, I believe Paul makes this point very clear.

Hi!!!Bro.Butch5 greetings;
Please don't mind if I answer your quote even it is not address to me,I just want to give my share
regarding this thread.
I think that bro.Steven3's reply for me was in position that water baptism is similar to baptism into death.And you seem agree on him so,I would like to clarify the the doctrine of Paul regarding baptism according to my opinion.
1Co.1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize,but to preach the gospel:not with wisdom of words,lest the cross ofChrist should be made of none effect.
After the incident when Jesus call Paul and made a miracle by blinding him and restore his sight through Ananias.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou?arise,and be baptized,and wash away thy sins,calling on the name of the Lord.How did Paul wash away his sin? Through water? No, by calling on the name of the Lord.1Joh.2:12 I write to you little children,because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales and he received his sight
forthwith,and arose,and was baptized.(But the scrpture did not mention any kind of baptism.)
He later taught that baptism is essential to come into Christ.(then that is our topic now)
Rom.6:3-5 baptism into death or spiritual baptism,that no one is duly authorized to perform but
Jesus only as per record of JTB.Before he ascended to heaven he pray to Father to send the
Comforter or the Holy Ghost,Joh.14:26 who shall teach us and bring to our remembrance all things that he says to us.And the Holy Ghost did the spiritual baptism in Acts 2:2-4,10:44-47
Here,water is mentioned here but it is an idiom and not literal water.
Joh.7:38-39 He that believeth on me,as the scripture hath said,out of his belly shall flow rivers
of living water.The sound of flowing water refer to the name of Jesus.Rev.1:15 And his feet like
unto fne brass,as if they burned in furnace;and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Joh.7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit,which they believe on him should receive:for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;because Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them,Go ye into all the world,and preach the gospel to every ceature.
v.16)He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Comment: in this two verses says,go,preach and baptize;but did not clarify,kind of baptism.
1Pet.3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of
Jesus Christ:
Titus 3:5 Not by work of righteousness which we have done,but according to his mercy he saved
us,by the washing of regeneration,and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
Joh.3:5 Jesus answered,Verily,verily,I say unto thee,Except a ma be born of water and of the Spirit,he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Gen.1:2 And the earth is without form,and void;the darkness was upon the face of the deep.And
the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.In this two verses water is again mentioned,
but it refer to Jesus's name.Joh.6:62 What if ye see the Son of man ascend up where he was before.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Steven3
Mar 22nd 2010, 02:59 AM
I said nothing of the process. Do you deny the fact people are changed before water baptism or not?Me? I don't deny we/they start to change no. But I wouldn't say that someone who resists obeying Jesus on this point has changed much, no.

Sirus
Mar 22nd 2010, 03:44 AM
How much change in a period of time before being water baptized is irrelevant to the reason they are changed. As I said earlier, I have never known anyone that refused to be baptized and on top of that I've never heard of anyone refusing water baptism, so the point is moot. If they experience their death, burial, and resurrection to newness of life in Christ before water baptism, water baptism cannot be necessary to experience their death, burial, and resurrection to newness of life in Christ. It's very simple. I didn't get baptized to receive anything. I already had the Spirit, remission of sin, and experienced newness of life.

roaring tiger
Mar 22nd 2010, 08:07 AM
How much change in a period of time before being water baptized is irrelevant to the reason they are changed. As I said earlier, I have never known anyone that refused to be baptized and on top of that I've never heard of anyone refusing water baptism, so the point is moot. If they experience their death, burial, and resurrection to newness of life in Christ before water baptism, water baptism cannot be necessary to experience their death, burial, and resurrection to newness of life in Christ. It's very simple. I didn't get baptized to receive anything. I already had the Spirit, remission of sin, and experienced newness of life.

Hi!!!Sirus greetings;
I agree,I think no one here are not against water baptism,what's in our discussion is if what kind of baptism pertain to Rom.6:3-5 because it was clearly stated that it was a baptism into death.
The problem arise when they insist that it was water baptism.Sometimes I think that maybe they do not understand if what or how they could be baptize into death.the spirit of the topic was
left behind by there hard stand that it was water baptism.
Joh.7:17 If any man do his will,he shall know of the doctrine,whether it be of God,or whether I speak of myself.
v.18) He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:but he that seeketh his glory of that sent him,the same is true,and no unrighteousness is in him.
Rom.6:4 Christ was raise from the dead by the glory of the Father,the glory of the Father is the word that Jesus blood spake in Heb.12:24 and is the key for resurrection.
Joh.11:25Jesus said unto her,I am the resurrection,and the life:he that believeth in me,though he were dead,yet shall he live.
v.26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.Believest thou this?
Thank you and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

losthorizon
Mar 22nd 2010, 04:05 PM
If they experience their death, burial, and resurrection to newness of life in Christ before water baptism, water baptism cannot be necessary to experience their death, burial, and resurrection to newness of life in Christ.



You miss the point completely – one can only experience death, burial, and resurrection in water baptism – a burial in water. Baptism is not optional and it remains what it has always been - a NT ordinance commanded by God that signifies our dying and rising with Christ. Through faith and baptism believers are *united with Christ* in his death, burial, and resurrection (Rom_6:3-5). The act of baptism in water signifies our participation in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ just as it signifies the washing away of our sins by the blood of Christ (Act_22:16). As stated - baptism is a sign of spiritual cleansing and while baptism should never be separated from that to which it signifies - conversely - the thing signified should never be expected without the sign.
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (Rom 6:3-5 ESV)

BroRog
Mar 22nd 2010, 04:47 PM
You miss the point completely – one can only experience death, burial, and resurrection in water baptism – a burial in water. Baptism is not optional and it remains what it has always been - a NT ordinance commanded by God that signifies our dying and rising with Christ. Through faith and baptism believers are *united with Christ* in his death, burial, and resurrection (Rom_6:3-5). The act of baptism in water signifies our participation in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ just as it signifies the washing away of our sins by the blood of Christ (Act_22:16). As stated - baptism is a sign of spiritual cleansing and while baptism should never be separated from that to which it signifies - conversely - the thing signified should never be expected without the sign.
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (Rom 6:3-5 ESV)Paul is not saying that we experience our own death, burial and resurrection, and neither is he saying that we experience Christ's death, burial and resurrection. To be "baptised into" his death does not mean we participate in his death in some metaphysical plane of existence. The phrase "baptized into" indicates or denotes when a person has accepted the the teaching or message of the baptizer.

For instance, those who were "baptized into" John, were affirming John's message that we need to repent of our sins, and that someone was coming who would baptize us in the Holy Spirit.



Acts 19:2-4 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

John was telling people they needed to repent and perform acts in keeping with repentance. And John was telling the people to anticipate and believe in him who was to come, that is, Jesus. To be "baptized into" John's baptism is to agree with John, to agree with what John taught about repentance and about believing in Jesus. We have the same verbal construction in Romans 6.



Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Just as being "baptized into" John indicates that we agree with John's teaching, to be "baptized into" Christ indicates that we agree with Christ's teaching. Paul isn't suggesting that water baptism itself gives us the experience of death, burial and resurrection. He isn't saying that unless we get into a tub of water we won't experience a death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, or our own death, burial and resurrection. Paul's point has nothing at all to do with what we experience, and everything to do with what we affirm.

He isn't saying, "you need to get into the water, otherwise you won't have a crucial Christian experience." He is saying, "When you (my Roman readers) got into the water, you gave your affirmation to a particular Christian doctrine." And Paul bases his subsequent argument on that particular doctrine. His focus is entirely on the doctrine they affirmed, not on the baptism itself.



For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection . . .


Whereas Paul wants the reader to focus on the doctrine they affirmed, you want us to focus on the act of baptism itself, which was not Paul's intent. The act of water baptism wasn't what united the new Christian to Christ, it was the affirmation of the teaching of Christ that united the new Christian to Christ. Immersion in water isn't how Christ died. So what makes us think this is what Paul meant. Immersion in water is nothing like death on a cross. Immersion in water is nothing like being buried underground. That isn't his point. To be united with him "in the likeness of his death" is to find a source of unity in his garden experience in which Jesus submitted his will to that of the father.



Luke 22:42 Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.

We unite with Christ when we adopt this same attitude. Just as Christ humbled himself at the cross, we humble ourselves at our conversion. Rather than excuse our sin, rationalize it, justify it, or minimize it; we repudiate our sin and in the process we admit that we are morally inept and in need of a savior. We approach God with this humble, contrite attitude and in this way we unite with Christ.

Getting in the water was simply an occasion for this, but it is certainly not the only occasion for it.

Jemand
Mar 22nd 2010, 05:01 PM
Were Paul's sin washed away by the blood of Christ before water baptism? He was certainly "changed" when he met Christ on the road to Damascus but by his own account his sins were not washed away until he obeyed his Lord in baptism. Your point regarding "change" is simply a moot point - it means nothing. Were you baptized into the death of Christ - "do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death"? Can one be saved without being baptized into union with Christ Jesus?

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'
(Act 22:16 ESV)


In Acts 22:6-21, we find Paul having been taken into custody by some Roman soldiers and centurions because a Jewish mob was seeking to kill him and because the Roman commander mistook him for an Egyptian who had some time ago stirred up a revolt. As the soldiers carry Paul up the stairs to the barracks to keep him from the hands of the Jews, Paul gets the commander’s permission to defend himself to the Jews while standing on the stairs. The part of his defense that is pertinent to the subject of water baptism is the following,

12. “A certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there,
13. came to me, and standing near said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very time I looked up at him.
14. “And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth.
15. ‘For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.
16. ‘Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’” (NASB, 1995)

It is absolutely essential to the correct interpretation of this passage that it be interpreted in the context in which it is found. It is not an objective history lesson—it is a very carefully worded defense. Notice in v. 12 how Paul begins by describing Ananias, making him as credible as possible to the Jewish mob. He then has Ananias saying to him, “Brother Saul, receive your sight,” and at that “very time” Paul regains his eye sight! Next, he has Ananias tell him, “The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth.” Look at that again, “The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth.” In verse 15, Ananias defends Paul’s commission to be a witness for God to all men. Notice that he is defending Paul’s commission from God to be a witness to the Gentiles but adroitly avoids using the word “Gentiles.” In verse 16, Ananias says to Paul, “Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.” Paul’s sins may very well have already been washed away the very moment that he believed in Christ as his Lord and Savior, but the Jewish mob needed to hear Paul quote Ananias as having said these words, and Paul may have needed to hear them from Ananias for his own assurance. We do not have here an objective history lesson; we have here Paul’s defense to a Jewish mob that was seeking to kill him—and the passage must be interpreted accordingly.

roaring tiger
Mar 22nd 2010, 07:51 PM
In Acts 22:6-21, we find Paul having been taken into custody by some Roman soldiers and centurions because a Jewish mob was seeking to kill him and because the Roman commander mistook him for an Egyptian who had some time ago stirred up a revolt. As the soldiers carry Paul up the stairs to the barracks to keep him from the hands of the Jews, Paul gets the commander’s permission to defend himself to the Jews while standing on the stairs. The part of his defense that is pertinent to the subject of water baptism is the following,

12. “A certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, {and} well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there,
13. came to me, and standing near said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very time I looked up at him.
14. “And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth.
15. ‘For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.
16. ‘Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’” (NASB, 1995)

It is absolutely essential to the correct interpretation of this passage that it be interpreted in the context in which it is found. It is not an objective history lesson—it is a very carefully worded defense. Notice in v. 12 how Paul begins by describing Ananias, making him as credible as possible to the Jewish mob. He then has Ananias saying to Paul, “Brother Saul, receive your sight, “and at that “very time” Paul regains his eye sight! Next, he has Ananias tell Paul, “The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth.” Look at that again, “The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth.” In verse 15, Ananias defends Paul’s commission to be a witness for God to all men. Notice that he is defending Paul’s commission from God to be a witness to the Gentiles but adroitly avoids using the word “Gentiles.” In verse 16, Ananias says to Paul, “Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.” Paul’s sins may very well have already been washed away the very moment that he believed in Christ as his Lord and Savior, but the Jewish mob needed to hear Paul quote Ananias as having said these words, and Paul may have needed to hear them from Ananias for his own assurance. We do not have here an objective history lesson; we have here Paul’s defense to a Jewish mob that was seeking to kill him—and the passage must be interpreted accordingly.

Hi!!! Sirus, BroRog. Jemand greetings;

Blessed art thou that" flesh and blood"hath not revealed it unto thee,but our Father in heaven.I salute you and hope we will join with our heavenly family in the future.

Thank you and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Butch5
Mar 22nd 2010, 11:59 PM
Again, that is the point.
Mat 7:16-21, 10:32, 12:33, 50
Gal 5:22-23
Eph 5:9-10
Joh 15:2-5
and so on and so on and so on............

What experiences are they that change what the Scriptures say?

You claim that people bear fruit before they are baptized. Can you give evidence? How do you know that it is fruit that counts if you are claiming fruit before baptism? To simply make a claim that I bore fruit before i was water baptized does not mean anything. Firstly because I am not the one who judges the fruit. You can claim to bear fruit before water baptism, however that does not mean that God is counting it. You have no way of knowing if you are bearing fruit. Just because you may do some good deeds before water baptism does not guarantee that it is "Fruit".

By the way, my church baptizes immediately.

losthorizon
Mar 23rd 2010, 12:30 AM
Paul is not saying that we experience our own death, burial and resurrection, and neither is he saying that we experience Christ's death, burial and resurrection. To be "baptised into" his death does not mean we participate in his death in some metaphysical plane of existence. The phrase "baptized into" indicates or denotes when a person has accepted the the teaching or message of the baptizer.

As already stated - baptism signifies our death in His death – “…do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death." This is not a hard concept – if you have not been immersed in water you have not been baptized in His death. Have you been baptized “in His death”, Rog? God commands us to be immersed in water – it is not an 'optional recommendation'. Baptism is from God not man and it is essential to the gospel – it is the act of obedience that puts the believer “into Christ Jesus” into union with the Lord. If one has not been baptized in water he/she is not biblically “in Christ”…
Gal 3:27
As many of you as have been baptized into Christ - All of you who have believed in Christ as the promised Messiah, and received baptism as a public proof that ye had received Christ as your Lord and Savior, have put on Christ - have received his Spirit, and entered into his interests, and copied his manners. ~ Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
We approach God with this humble, contrite attitude and in this way we unite with Christ.

Getting in the water was simply an occasion for this, but it is certainly not the only occasion for it.You’re wrong once again – according to Holy Writ only those who come to Christ by faith; repent of their sins and are baptized in water – *baptized into Christ* – are united with the Lord as they “put on Christ”. Nothing else does that. Baptism is from God and it proclaims the death of our old life to sin as we are plunged under the water, and our resurrection to walk in newness of life as we rise up out of the water “a new creature in Christ Jesus". Only those who have been immersed in water calling on the name of the Lord are joined to Christ. This is an easy concept unless one trips over his sectarian biases. In your theology is baptism a holy ordinance from God?
Baptism is a holy ordinance, in which immersion in the water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, signifies our being joined to Christ and our sharing the benefits of the covenant of grace, and our engagement to be the Lord's. ~ John Piper (Bethlehem Baptist Church)

losthorizon
Mar 23rd 2010, 12:41 AM
It is absolutely essential to the correct interpretation of this passage that it be interpreted in the context in which it is found.

And *in context* it says exactly what the Holy Spirit designed it to say – Paul believed that Jesus was the Christ on the road to Damascus when he met Jesus face to face but Paul’s sins were not washed away by the blood of Christ until (by faith) he arose and was baptized “calling on the name of the Lord." It’s there in black and white my friend and that is "the context". Baptism is "for the forgiveness of your sins..."
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 ESV)

Jemand
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:03 AM
And *in context* it says exactly what the Holy Spirit designed it to say – Paul believed that Jesus was the Christ on the road to Damascus when he met Jesus face to face but Paul’s sins were not washed away by the blood of Christ until (by faith) he arose and was baptized “calling on the name of the Lord." It’s there in black and white my friend and that is "the context". Baptism is "for the forgiveness of your sins..."
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 ESV)

No, the Bible does NOT say that Paul’s sins were not washed away by the blood of Christ until (by faith) he arose and was baptized.

losthorizon
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:31 AM
No, the Bible does NOT say that Paul’s sins were not washed away by the blood of Christ until (by faith) he arose and was baptized.
Are you saying Paul's sins were "washed away" by the blood of Christ before he was instructed by Ananias to "rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name"? That would make no sense. The truth remains...Paul's sins were not washed away until he obeyed the command of Jesus to be baptized in water - to be "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5) . It can't be any clearer.
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.' (Act 22:16 ESV)

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:5 ESV)The same is true of those 3000 Jews who believed on the Day of Pentecost - they believed on the Lord and they asked Paul what else they must do to be saved. Those folks were told the same thing - there was more to do than believe only - they must also..."Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Act 2:38 ESV). Belief, repentance and baptism (works of faith) all come BEFORE one's sins are remitted. Jesus tells us the same thing - “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16). Clearly - belief, repentance and baptism all come before one "shall be saved".
"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

JollyRoger1970
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:37 AM
We are indeed new creations when we arise out of the waters of baptism. :-)

JollyRoger1970
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:38 AM
Well said! Biblical truth cannot be denied.

Sirus
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:54 AM
Are you saying Paul's sins were "washed away" by the blood of Christ before he was instructed by Ananias to "rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name"? That would make no sense. Yes, and it makes perfect sense.

losthorizon
Mar 23rd 2010, 02:19 AM
Yes, and it makes perfect sense.
Then explain why Paul was instructed by the one sent by God to be baptized in water in order to have his sins washed away by the blood of Christ if his sins were already washed away by the blood of Christ. What Bible version do you use that says, "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized (if he feels like it)." You're up.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16).

Sirus
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:15 AM
Then explain why Paul was instructed by the one sent by God to be baptized in water in order to have his sins washed away by the blood of Christ if his sins were already washed away by the blood of Christ. What Bible version do you use that says, "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized (if he feels like it)." You're up.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16).Paul was in 'time', experiencing what was already done.
When was the blood shed?
When was the Lamb slain?
When was Paul chosen?
(all these were before Paul believed and was baptized)
How was Paul chosen? (according to foreknowledge)

roaring tiger
Mar 23rd 2010, 05:10 AM
Are you saying Paul's sins were "washed away" by the blood of Christ before he was instructed by Ananias to "rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name"? That would make no sense. The truth remains...Paul's sins were not washed away until he obeyed the command of Jesus to be baptized in water - to be "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5) . It can't be any clearer.

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.' (Act 22:16 ESV)

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:5 ESV)
The same is true of those 3000 Jews who believed on the Day of Pentecost - they believed on the Lord and they asked Paul what else they must do to be saved. Those folks were told the same thing - there was more to do than believe only - they must also..."Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Act 2:38 ESV). Belief, repentance and baptism (works of faith) all come BEFORE one's sins are remitted. Jesus tells us the same thing - “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16). Clearly - belief, repentance and baptism all come before one "shall be saved".

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary


Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
friend,your quote was not address to me,so pardon me if I share with you.

1 Co.4:6 all these things brethren,I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes;that ye may learn in us not to think of men above that which is written,

that no one of you puffed up for one against another.

Is. 8:20 For the law and to the testimony:if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.I give this scripture so that we can see enlightment on our disccusion.

May you please give context to prove clearly,your position wherein immersion on water was the true meaning of baptism into death. As I had explain before that Act 22:16 is not

a proof for water baptism because it was not shown there."rise and be baptized (?) and wash away your sins,(1 Joh.2:12) calling on his name."

You give Act 2:38 and Mark 16:16 and I'll add v.17 Then Peter said unto them,Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and

ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.This not water baptism,it is a baptism in spirit;to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is a parallel of baptism into death.This is what

Peter said in 1 Pe.1:23 to be born again of incorruptible seed by the word of God that liveth and abideth for ever; and receiving of gift from the Holy Ghost is the concept of 16:17

and these signs shall follow them that believe;in my name they cast out devils;they shall speak new tongues.The last is a process or progress in learning about Christ,things that

even I explain you,you will not understand because you had already hardend your heart and do not want to hear the words of righteousness of God.

So,please just a brotherly advice please show your scripture about water baptism not by the way of a sectarian theology but by the WORDS OF GOD.

Thank you and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

roaring tiger
Mar 23rd 2010, 06:16 AM
What experiences are they that change what the Scriptures say?

You claim that people bear fruit before they are baptized. Can you give evidence? How do you know that it is fruit that counts if you are claiming fruit before baptism? To simply make a claim that I bore fruit before i was water baptized does not mean anything. Firstly because I am not the one who judges the fruit. You can claim to bear fruit before water baptism, however that does not mean that God is counting it. You have no way of knowing if you are bearing fruit. Just because you may do some good deeds before water baptism does not guarantee that it is "Fruit".

By the way, my church baptizes immediately.

Hi!!!Butch5 greetings;

Your quote is not address to me but let me share my position regarding your topic about "bearing fruit".

Brother,as a reminder of Lord Jesus preaching he said;the words that I speak to you ,they are spirit ,and they are life.

Yes ,we can bear fruit before we've been baptized.

Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life:no man cometh unto the Father,but by me.So Jesus being a son is a fruit,firstfruit.

If ye had known me,ye should have known my Father also:and from henceforth ye know him,and have seen him.

In regard to baptism,the word that Jesus speaked when blood and water flow out of his body is the word that the apostle preaches for reconcilliation.

2Co.5:19 To wit,that the God was in Christ,reconciiling the world unto himself,not imputing their trespasses unto them;and hath commited unto us the word of reconcilliation.

v.17) Therefore if any man be in Christ,he is new creature;old things are passed away;behold all things become new.

In regards to Gal.3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.this pertain to our spiritual growth in Christ.

Is.11:1-2 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,and a branch shall grow out of his roots:

v.2) And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,the spirit of wisdom and understanding,the spirit of counsel and might,the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This is the parellel of the analogy of the mustard seed that, when sown must died first, before it sprung and grew,have stem and then fruits,(but first to come is the fruit

were the seed originate.)

Thank you and many blessing./RT.

losthorizon
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:25 PM
...even I explain you,you will not understand because you had already hardend your heart and do not want to hear the words of righteousness of God.


My friend you confusion continues unbridled and the truth remains the truth. The baptism mentioned in Mark 16:16, Act 2:38, Acts 22:16 and Romans 6:3-5 is a reference to baptism in water – a burial in water. Baptism is not optional. Baptism comes before one’s sins are remitted and the ordinance signifies our dying and rising with Christ. As we are plunged under the water the old man dies and when we come up out of the water we are born again – “born of the water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) - born again "to walk in newness of life".

The act of baptism in water is commanded by God and it signifies the washing away of our sins by the blood of Christ (Act_22:16). As a sign of spiritual cleansing baptism must never be separated from that to which it signifies but the thing signified should never be expected without the sign. The NT does not know of an unbaptized Christian. You remain in error. Re-think.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death,.... The nature and end of baptism are here expressed; the nature of it, it is a "burial"; and when the apostle so calls it, he manifestly refers to the ancient and only way of administering this ordinance, by immersion; when a person is covered, and as it were buried in water, as a corpse is when laid the earth, and covered with it: and it is a burial with Christ; it is a representation of the burial of Christ, and of our burial with him as our head and representative, and that "into death"; meaning either the death of Christ as before, that is, so as to partake of the benefits of his death; or the death of sin, of which baptism is also a token; for believers, whilst under water, are as persons buried, and so dead; which signifies not only their being dead with Christ, and their communion with him in his death, but also their being dead to sin by the grace of Christ, and therefore ought not to live in it: for the apostle is still pursuing his argument, and is showing, from the nature, use, and end of baptism, that believers are dead to sin, and therefore cannot, and ought not, to live in it; as more fully appears from the end of baptism next mentioned… ~ John Gill

Butch5
Mar 24th 2010, 01:06 AM
Hi!!!Butch5 greetings;

Your quote is not address to me but let me share my position regarding your topic about "bearing fruit".

Brother,as a reminder of Lord Jesus preaching he said;the words that I speak to you ,they are spirit ,and they are life.

Yes ,we can bear fruit before we've been baptized.

Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life:no man cometh unto the Father,but by me.So Jesus being a son is a fruit,firstfruit.

If ye had known me,ye should have known my Father also:and from henceforth ye know him,and have seen him.

In regard to baptism,the word that Jesus speaked when blood and water flow out of his body is the word that the apostle preaches for reconcilliation.

2Co.5:19 To wit,that the God was in Christ,reconciiling the world unto himself,not imputing their trespasses unto them;and hath commited unto us the word of reconcilliation.

v.17) Therefore if any man be in Christ,he is new creature;old things are passed away;behold all things become new.

In regards to Gal.3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.this pertain to our spiritual growth in Christ.

Is.11:1-2 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,and a branch shall grow out of his roots:

v.2) And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,the spirit of wisdom and understanding,the spirit of counsel and might,the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This is the parellel of the analogy of the mustard seed that, when sown must died first, before it sprung and grew,have stem and then fruits,(but first to come is the fruit

were the seed originate.)

Thank you and many blessing./RT.

Hi RT,

Here is the problem Jesus said without me you can do nothing. The only way I see for someone to bear fruit is to be "In Christ". Paul said, 'as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ'. It seems to Paul that to be in Christ requires one to be baptized.

roaring tiger
Mar 24th 2010, 06:49 AM
My friend you confusion continues unbridled and the truth remains the truth. The baptism mentioned in Mark 16:16, Act 2:38, Acts 22:16 and Romans 6:3-5 is a reference to baptism in water – a burial in water. Baptism is not optional. Baptism comes before one’s sins are remitted and the ordinance signifies our dying and rising with Christ. As we are plunged under the water the old man dies and when we come up out of the water we are born again – “born of the water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) - born again "to walk in newness of life".

The act of baptism in water is commanded by God and it signifies the washing away of our sins by the blood of Christ (Act_22:16). As a sign of spiritual cleansing baptism must never be separated from that to which it signifies but the thing signified should never be expected without the sign. The NT does not know of an unbaptized Christian. You remain in error. Re-think.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death,.... The nature and end of baptism are here expressed; the nature of it, it is a "burial"; and when the apostle so calls it, he manifestly refers to the ancient and only way of administering this ordinance, by immersion; when a person is covered, and as it were buried in water, as a corpse is when laid the earth, and covered with it: and it is a burial with Christ; it is a representation of the burial of Christ, and of our burial with him as our head and representative, and that "into death"; meaning either the death of Christ as before, that is, so as to partake of the benefits of his death; or the death of sin, of which baptism is also a token; for believers, whilst under water, are as persons buried, and so dead; which signifies not only their being dead with Christ, and their communion with him in his death, but also their being dead to sin by the grace of Christ, and therefore ought not to live in it: for the apostle is still pursuing his argument, and is showing, from the nature, use, and end of baptism, that believers are dead to sin, and therefore cannot, and ought not, to live in it; as more fully appears from the end of baptism next mentioned… ~ John Gill

Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
Thank you for your brotherly concern on me,as i had mirror on your quote ;your wishes that we
could undergoes in one faith and belief.
However Christ gave me his record on how he also want me to come near to him.Even I am a man
without denomination,he teaches me through the Holy Ghost that was in me so many things that
other man does'nt know.Through my faith,he gives me more than i am asking for.I'm very sorry
that I cannot reprobates the enlightment he gaves me.
Regarding Act 22:14-16 Jemand has given you the key or the word that could wash away your sins
and transgression.And he said,The God of our fathers hath chosen thee,that thou shouldest hear
the voice of his mouth.For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise,and be baptized(no water mentioned),and wash away thy sins,
(how ?) calling on the name of the Lord. (1Joh.2:12)
Regardig Rom.6:4-5 Therefore we are buried in him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was
raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,even so we aalso should walk in newness of life.
v.5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,we shall be also in the
likeness of hisresurrection. We shall be risen also by the glory of the Father,which is Christ.
Joh.5:25 Verily ,verily, I say unto you,The hour is coming,and now it is,when the dead shall hear
the voice of the Son of God:and they that hear shall live.
v.26) For as the Father has life in himself;so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.
Joh.5:21-22 For as the Father raiseth up the dead,and quickeneth them;even so the Son quickeneth
whom he will.
v.22 For the Father judgeth no man but hath commited all judgement unto the Son.

Thanks and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

roaring tiger
Mar 24th 2010, 07:07 AM
Hi RT,

Here is the problem Jesus said without me you can do nothing. The only way I see for someone to bear fruit is to be "In Christ". Paul said, 'as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ'. It seems to Paul that to be in Christ requires one to be baptized.

Hi!!!Butch5 greetings;

Yes I agree,that we cannot bear fruit if we are seperated to Christ.That is the reason Paul is told
us in 2Co.13:5 Examine yourselves,whether ye in faith;prove your ownselves,how that Jesus Christ
is in you,except ye be reprobates?
v.6)But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. Why? because you are alive and the
the Holy Ghost is still in you.
Regarding Gal.3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
this refer to our spiritual growth;first to be baptized by Holy Ghost and then the gift is a raiment
that the Holy Ghost will clothed you to cover your nakedness.
Thank you and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

roaring tiger
Mar 24th 2010, 07:10 AM
My friend you confusion continues unbridled and the truth remains the truth. The baptism mentioned in Mark 16:16, Act 2:38, Acts 22:16 and Romans 6:3-5 is a reference to baptism in water – a burial in water. Baptism is not optional. Baptism comes before one’s sins are remitted and the ordinance signifies our dying and rising with Christ. As we are plunged under the water the old man dies and when we come up out of the water we are born again – “born of the water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) - born again "to walk in newness of life".

The act of baptism in water is commanded by God and it signifies the washing away of our sins by the blood of Christ (Act_22:16). As a sign of spiritual cleansing baptism must never be separated from that to which it signifies but the thing signified should never be expected without the sign. The NT does not know of an unbaptized Christian. You remain in error. Re-think.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death,.... The nature and end of baptism are here expressed; the nature of it, it is a "burial"; and when the apostle so calls it, he manifestly refers to the ancient and only way of administering this ordinance, by immersion; when a person is covered, and as it were buried in water, as a corpse is when laid the earth, and covered with it: and it is a burial with Christ; it is a representation of the burial of Christ, and of our burial with him as our head and representative, and that "into death"; meaning either the death of Christ as before, that is, so as to partake of the benefits of his death; or the death of sin, of which baptism is also a token; for believers, whilst under water, are as persons buried, and so dead; which signifies not only their being dead with Christ, and their communion with him in his death, but also their being dead to sin by the grace of Christ, and therefore ought not to live in it: for the apostle is still pursuing his argument, and is showing, from the nature, use, and end of baptism, that believers are dead to sin, and therefore cannot, and ought not, to live in it; as more fully appears from the end of baptism next mentioned… ~ John Gill

Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
Thank you for your brotherly concern on me,as i had mirror on your quote ;your wishes that we
could undergoes in one faith and belief.
However Christ gave me his record on how he also want me to come near to him.Even I am a man
without denomination,he teaches me through the Holy Ghost that was in me so many things that
other man does'nt know.Through my faith,he gives me more than i am asking for.I'm very sorry
that I cannot reprobates the enlightment he gaves me.
Regarding Act 22:14-16 Jemand has given you the key or the word that could wash away your sins
and transgression.And he said,The God of our fathers hath chosen thee,that thou shouldest hear
the voice of his mouth.For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise,and be baptized(no water mentioned),and wash away thy sins,
(how ?) calling on the name of the Lord. (1Joh.2:12)
Regardig Rom.6:4-5 Therefore we are buried in him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was
raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,even so we aalso should walk in newness of life.
v.5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,we shall be also in the
likeness of hisresurrection. We shall be risen also by the glory of the Father,which is Christ.
Joh.5:25 Verily ,verily, I say unto you,The hour is coming,and now it is,when the dead shall hear
the voice of the Son of God:and they that hear shall live.
v.26) For as the Father has life in himself;so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.
Joh.5:21-22 For as the Father raiseth up the dead,and quickeneth them;even so the Son quickeneth
whom he will.
v.22 For the Father judgeth no man but hath commited all judgement unto the Son.

Thanks and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Butch5
Mar 24th 2010, 09:35 PM
Hi!!!Butch5 greetings;

Yes I agree,that we cannot bear fruit if we are seperated to Christ.That is the reason Paul is told
us in 2Co.13:5 Examine yourselves,whether ye in faith;prove your ownselves,how that Jesus Christ
is in you,except ye be reprobates?
v.6)But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. Why? because you are alive and the
the Holy Ghost is still in you.
Regarding Gal.3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
this refer to our spiritual growth;first to be baptized by Holy Ghost and then the gift is a raiment
that the Holy Ghost will clothed you to cover your nakedness.
Thank you and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

Galatians 3:27 is speaking of water baptism. Jesus told the apostles to baptize in His name. As many as were have put on Christ.

losthorizon
Mar 24th 2010, 09:50 PM
Jemand has given you the key or the word that could wash away your sins
and transgression.

The truth remains – it is the blood of Christ alone that washes away sin when the penitent believer is immersed in water calling on the name of the Lord – baptized into His death and united with Christ through baptism…”do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?”

roaring tiger
Mar 25th 2010, 10:57 AM
Galatians 3:27 is speaking of water baptism. Jesus told the apostles to baptize in His name. As many as were have put on Christ.


Hi!!!Bro. Butch greetings;

Is water clearly written or mentioned in? Gal.3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ......." baptized into Christ".......no water baptism mention here.
1Co.4:6 And this thing, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written,that no one of you
be puffed up for one against another.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

roaring tiger
Mar 25th 2010, 11:15 AM
The truth remains – it is the blood of Christ alone that washes away sin when the penitent believer is immersed in water calling on the name of the Lord – baptized into His death and united with Christ through baptism…”do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?”

hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
If in your opinion that is the truth,then it is your option; what matter is that I had alredy shewn my love for you by sharing the words of God.
Ezek.3:4 And he said unto me Son of man,go, get unto the house of Israel,and speaks my words unto them.
Ezek.2:7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them,whether they will hear or whether they will forbear:.......
Thank you very much and God bless you.
in love of Christ,/RT.

losthorizon
Mar 25th 2010, 05:13 PM
hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
If in your opinion that is the truth,then it is your option; what matter is that I had alredy shewn my love for you by sharing the words of God.

The truth is RT it is not “my opinion” it is *biblical fact* – those who come to Christ must be “baptized into Christ Jesus” – a baptism that includes a burial in water - a new birth via water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). The Lord Himself clearly tells us that both faith and baptism precede salvation. You continue to miss this important truth due to a sectarian bias that you refuse to overcome. I will have to go with God’s word – it’s there in black and white my friend…
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. ~ Mark 16:16

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? ~ Romans 6:3

roaring tiger
Mar 26th 2010, 12:05 AM
The truth is RT it is not “my opinion” it is *biblical fact* – those who come to Christ must be “baptized into Christ Jesus” – a baptism that includes a burial in water - a new birth via water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). The Lord Himself clearly tells us that both faith and baptism precede salvation. You continue to miss this important truth due to a sectarian bias that you refuse to overcome. I will have to go with God’s word – it’s there in black and white my friend…
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. ~ Mark 16:16

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? ~ Romans 6:3

Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
Thank you for your unsolicited praise in your opening quote"the truth is RT"; no I am not the truth but I am sharing you the truth "the word of God"..Never from the beginning of this thread that I refute water baptism,but what I am
explaining or the topic of our discussion is baptism into death.I numerously prove to you that it is spiritual baptism, which is different in water baptism.
You said that I miss this important truth due to a certain sectaarian bias....No,my friend I'm not a member of any denimination,I did not learn the words that I'm sharing you from any man nor teaches to me from any minister of
present churches,but through the revelation of the Holy Ghost which is the Spirit of God that dwelt on us.
Is.34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the Lord,and read: no one of this shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth had commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
I do not need the doctrine of John gill or Charles Spurgeon because the bible,the word of God is enough for me.
Continue to walk in spirit with God and pray that you could strenghten your spirit to last the endureth that will come to all man.
Thanks and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.

losthorizon
Mar 26th 2010, 12:31 AM
Never from the beginning of this thread that I refute water baptism,but what I am
explaining or the topic of our discussion is baptism into death.I numerously prove to you that it is spiritual baptism, which is different in water baptism.


And one only experiences the baptism into Christ's death when one is immersed in water. There is but one baptism commanded by Jesus and that “one baptism” is part of the “new birth” from above – one birth with two elements – “…of water and the Spirit”. Water means “water” and Spirit means “Spirit”. It is clearly understood in Holy Writ that the one baptism of Eph_4:5 is the baptism commanded by Christ and administered by men in the name of the triune God and this one baptism is immersion in water where the believer’s sins are remitted by the blood of Christ through the operation of the Holy Spirit - born of the water and the Spirit.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:4-6, AKJV)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:5 KJV)

roaring tiger
Mar 26th 2010, 01:26 AM
And one only experiences the baptism into Christ's death when one is immersed in water. There is but one baptism commanded by Jesus and that “one baptism” is part of the “new birth” from above – one birth with two elements – “…of water and the Spirit”. Water means “water” and Spirit means “Spirit”. It is clearly understood in Holy Writ that the one baptism of Eph_4:5 is the baptism commanded by Christ and administered by men in the name of the triune God and this one baptism is immersion in water where the believer’s sins are remitted by the blood of Christ through the operation of the Holy Spirit - born of the water and the Spirit.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:4-6, AKJV)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:5 KJV)

Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
The longer we exchange our reply,we only prolonged as what I see to be an disccusion with out an end,because if I shall follow you on your facts it will only come to worst because of so many argument that you do not clearly understand
at the present.I visualize almost all what you say clearly fall in a religeous ritual that you performed in your congregation.I respect it,whatsoever, it is because it was your right., besides that I know that those who sow in spirit shall reap
things of spirit.
There is one body, and one Spirit,even as you are called in one hope of your calling;One Lord,one faith,one baptism,one God and Father of all,who is above all,and through all,and in all,and in you all.(Eph.4:4-6) and I'll add one new name written in a white stone,which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Thank you and many blesing.
in love of Christ./RT.
that no one

losthorizon
Mar 26th 2010, 01:51 AM
Hi!!!losthorizon greetings;
The longer we exchange our reply,we only prolonged as what I see to be an disccusion with out an end,because if I shall follow you on your facts it will only come to worst because of so many argument that you do not clearly understand
at the present.I


But I do understand the word of God - baptism is an easy concept. I also understand your sectarian bias keeps you from seeing this truth but the truth always remains the truth...
"...except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." ~ Jesus Christ

Butch5
Mar 26th 2010, 10:55 AM
Hi!!!Bro. Butch greetings;

Is water clearly written or mentioned in? Gal.3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ......." baptized into Christ".......no water baptism mention here.
1Co.4:6 And this thing, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written,that no one of you
be puffed up for one against another.
Thank you very much and many blessing.
in love of Christ./RT.


Spiritual baptism is not mentioned either so why do you assume that it means a Spiritual baptism. Jesus told the apostles to go and make disciples, doing so entailed, teaching and water baptizing. So for one to be a disciple of Christ one needed to be water baptized. Just because Paul does not mention the word water does not mean he is not speaking of water. Suppose you went to a friends house and he asked you how did you get here? You answered, I drove here. Does he assume you did not use a car since you didn't mention a car? Does he assume you you drove a train to see him? Of course not, it is understood in the statement "I drove here" that a car was used. It is likewise with baptism, everyone who was coming to believe in Christ was water baptized, so when some said were you baptized? One knew they meant water. It is only in the modern day Christian that this argument concerning water is an issue, and that because they try to reject the words Scripture to reconcile the teaching of the reformation. Look at teh first thing that Mark speaks of in regard to the "Gospel of Jesus Christ."


Mark 1:1-5 ( KJV )
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

The first thing mentioned in the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" is water baptism.