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Freek
Mar 20th 2010, 11:29 PM
when we get born again.

Kahtar
Mar 21st 2010, 12:40 AM
Prior to salvation, you are spiritually 'dead', that is, separated from God through sin.
At salvation, you are accepting the payment of your sin (which is death) that Christ made in your place.
You are then spiritually 'reunited' with God, or your spirit is 'reborn', or restored to life.
Spiritually, you are now seated with Christ in heavenly places.

crossnote
Mar 21st 2010, 01:10 AM
Additionally, the blood of Christ cleanses your conscience through the forgiveness of your sins; as well as the Holy Spirit quickening your spirit setting your heart with desiring Him and His will at any cost.

Butch5
Mar 21st 2010, 01:27 AM
when we get born again.

This will be an interesting thread to watch. In the first two replies we already have contradicting opinions.

Kahtar
Mar 21st 2010, 02:01 AM
I don't see anything contradicting at all. One adds to the other. He said what I didn't.

Butch5
Mar 21st 2010, 02:17 AM
I don't see anything contradicting at all. One adds to the other. He said what I didn't.

Hi Kahtar,

In your post you speak of the payment for sins. In Crossnote's post he speaks of the forgiveness of sins. Payment and forgiveness are mutually exclusive.

Kahtar
Mar 21st 2010, 04:03 AM
I understand what you're saying. But, the fact is, they are not. Christ made the payment, we receive forgiveness. Both of those are right in the Word.
1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
G629 ἀπολύτρωσις apolutrōsis ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

Toymom
Mar 21st 2010, 03:04 PM
I agree with the above statements. To add to them, before being born again, we have only one life - our own life. When we are regenerated, another life comes into us. The Lord Himself as the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us in our human spirit.

Butch5
Mar 21st 2010, 05:13 PM
I understand what you're saying. But, the fact is, they are not. Christ made the payment, we receive forgiveness. Both of those are right in the Word.
1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
G629 ἀπολύτρωσις apolutrōsis ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

Hi Kahtar,

The passage you quoted above says nothing about a payment. It is possible for Christ to bear our sins without that bearing being a payment. However, as I said, forgiveness and payment are mutually exclusive. If Christ paid the debt, it is paid there is nothing to forgive.

Frances
Mar 21st 2010, 06:18 PM
Christ paid my penalty on the cross, which enables me to receive the Forgiveness God offers.
Because Christ rose to Life again I am able to rise to New Life with Him.

Butch5
Mar 21st 2010, 06:23 PM
Christ paid my penalty on the cross, which enables me to receive the Forgiveness God offers.
Because Christ rose to Life again I am able to rise to New Life with Him.

If the penalty is paid there is nothing to forgive.

Kahtar
Mar 21st 2010, 06:43 PM
Well, Butch, I don't know what to tell you. The Word of God says that Christ paid the cost. That cost was death.
The same word of God tells me I have forgiveness of all my sins. It's really not me you're arguing with, but the Word of God.
Maybe you can get the Holy Spirit to see the error of His ways, and rewrite His Word.
And, by the way, what IS a ransom, if not a payment?
1 Corinthians 7:23 KJV
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
2 Peter 2:1 KJV
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

David Taylor
Mar 21st 2010, 07:58 PM
What exactly happens when we get born again.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. We then, as workers together with him

Freek
Mar 21st 2010, 09:58 PM
The mechanism by which redemption happened is very interesting and important, I think, but here I am concerned with the changes that takes place within someone who is born again. We become a new creature. We become the righteousness of God in Christ, etc. Let's add to the list. Then let's think about the implications of what we put in that list for us as believers.

Servant89
Mar 21st 2010, 10:18 PM
Man is three parts , body, soul and spirit (1Th 5:23). Everyone has a conscience, a spirit, that is why everyone feels guilty for something or another, some more than others. When we get born again, God takes the spirit of man that is in us and replaces it with the Holy Spirit, and that feels like a change of heart has happened inside us. This is old testament doctrine. It is written:

Ezek 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezek 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

1Sam 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

That is why when Nicodemos asked about it, Jesus told him: "You are a teacher in Israel and you do not know this?"

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Prov 20:27 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Prov 24:20 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.


Shalom

Steven3
Mar 22nd 2010, 03:03 AM
when we get born again.

See Titus 3:5... we start to develop the new man, new life, man in Christ.

Nothing metaphysical happens.

Servant89
Mar 23rd 2010, 12:26 AM
See Titus 3:5... we start to develop the new man, new life, man in Christ.

Nothing metaphysical happens.

Nothing metaphysical happens? The dictionary defines metaphysical as "supernatural" and that is definetively what is going on. God shows up, God gets to live inside the person, that is what happens.

Shalom

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:05 AM
Well, Butch, I don't know what to tell you. The Word of God says that Christ paid the cost. That cost was death.
The same word of God tells me I have forgiveness of all my sins. It's really not me you're arguing with, but the Word of God.
Maybe you can get the Holy Spirit to see the error of His ways, and rewrite His Word.
And, by the way, what IS a ransom, if not a payment?
1 Corinthians 7:23 KJV
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
2 Peter 2:1 KJV
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Hi Kahtar,

I was merely pointing out the inconsistencies in the Penal model of the atonement. Yes there was payment, but it was not to God. You see if the payment for sins had been made to God, there would be nothing for God to forgive, the debt would be paid. If someone owes you $100 and they come and pay you, you would not call them up next week and say hey, don't worry about that $100 you owe me I am forgiving that debt. There would be nothing to forgive since they had already paid you.

Christ ransomed us from the kingdom of darkness with His death.

Colossians 1:12-13 ( KJV )
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

You see if Christ was the ransom to free mankind from the kingdom of darkness, mankind would be freed but would still have the issue of sin to deal with. This is where forgiveness comes in, God has made a way of forgiveness through faith in Christ. Thus we have Christ died for sins and forgiveness without contradictions.

Kahtar
Mar 23rd 2010, 04:37 AM
Hi Kahtar,

I was merely pointing out the inconsistencies in the Penal model of the atonement. Yes there was payment, but it was not to God. You see if the payment for sins had been made to God, there would be nothing for God to forgive, the debt would be paid. If someone owes you $100 and they come and pay you, you would not call them up next week and say hey, don't worry about that $100 you owe me I am forgiving that debt. There would be nothing to forgive since they had already paid you.

Christ ransomed us from the kingdom of darkness with His death.

Colossians 1:12-13 ( KJV )
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

You see if Christ was the ransom to free mankind from the kingdom of darkness, mankind would be freed but would still have the issue of sin to deal with. This is where forgiveness comes in, God has made a way of forgiveness through faith in Christ. Thus we have Christ died for sins and forgiveness without contradictions.
Now that I can agree with, for the most part.;)

ross3421
Mar 23rd 2010, 06:49 AM
Prior to salvation, you are spiritually 'dead', that is, separated from God through sin.
At salvation, you are accepting the payment of your sin (which is death) that Christ made in your place.
You are then spiritually 'reunited' with God, or your spirit is 'reborn', or restored to life.
Spiritually, you are now seated with Christ in heavenly places.

So we are born with a dead spirit? How is it that a spirit is dead? For it appears spirits never die.

Again if we are born with a spirit then how is it we are "born again" with a spirit?

Rather, The folowing text would imply that we are not born of the Spirit upon our first birth.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (FIRST BIRTH) and of the Spirit (SECOND BIRTH), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.



So we know we are born of the Spirit at our second birth, the bigger question is are we born with a Spirit upon the first?

Kahtar
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:33 PM
So we are born with a dead spirit? How is it that a spirit is dead? For it appears spirits never die.
The rest of that sentence says "that is, separated from God through sin." which explains what I meant by 'dead'. When Adam sinned, he did not die physically immediately, but he was spiritually separated from God through his rebellion and disobedience.


So we know we are born of the Spirit at our second birth, the bigger question is are we born with a Spirit upon the first?Many people are spiritually aware, even though they do not know the Lord.
But here are some scriptures for you to ponder:
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 KJV 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 8:6-8 KJV Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him. 7 For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be? 8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
Job 32:8 KJV But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Job 34:14-15 KJV If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Firstfruits
Mar 23rd 2010, 01:50 PM
Hi Kahtar,

The passage you quoted above says nothing about a payment. It is possible for Christ to bear our sins without that bearing being a payment. However, as I said, forgiveness and payment are mutually exclusive. If Christ paid the debt, it is paid there is nothing to forgive.

I hope the following helps.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

When we repent are we being sorry for what we have done in the hope of forgiveness?

Firstfruits

ross3421
Mar 23rd 2010, 07:08 PM
The rest of that sentence says "that is, separated from God through sin." which explains what I meant by 'dead'. When Adam sinned, he did not die physically immediately, but he was spiritually separated from God through his rebellion and disobedience.


OK, back to the spirit issue. So what kind of spirit are we first born with that we are not second born with? For we cannot be born with the same spirit twice as that would contradict the scripture.

Kahtar
Mar 23rd 2010, 07:56 PM
OK, back to the spirit issue. So what kind of spirit are we first born with that we are not second born with? For we cannot be born with the same spirit twice as that would contradict the scripture.If, because we are Adam's children, we are born spiritually separated from God, by accepting the 'way, the truth, and the life', Christ, and what He did for us, our spirit is reunited with God, 'raised up in newness of life'.
God is our lifesource. If we are separated from Him, we are separated from life. Thus, dead, or as the Holy Spirit through Jude said, 'twice dead'. Thus, if we are united with Him, then we are united with our Lifesource. Having never been in that place prior to salvation, we are 'born anew', and spiritually we are raised up and seated with Christ in heavenly places.
Thus, our spirit has experienced death, and experienced being raised up, or resurrected, to new life.
Our soul is in the process of 'dying daily', and 'working out our salvation daily', and we are learning to 'die to self'. When our body dies, our soul will be raised up with Christ.
At the last day, our body also will be raised up from the grave.
And thus, all three parts of us will have experienced death and resurrection.
IMO

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:28 PM
OK, back to the spirit issue. So what kind of spirit are we first born with that we are not second born with? For we cannot be born with the same spirit twice as that would contradict the scripture.


if one is not 'born again'.. then they are dead in trespasses and sins.. what is dead? your spirit.. your physically alive.. but your spirit is dead.. your made up of three parts... body, soul , and spirit...

According to Ephesians.. people prior to God saving them.. are dead in trespasses and sins... they are physically 'alive'.. but the soul and spirit are 'dead'.. spiritually.. there are many who don't agree with this but its True...

when One is Born AGain.. the 'spirit' part of your person is 'quickened' or made alive.. by the Holy Ghost.. God saves You.. setting your spirit soul and conscience 'free'.. from the guilt and condemnation that one carries and harbors because of being dead in trespasses and sins... He washes away the past sins and transgressions .. thru His Blood.. REDEPMPTION... setting your spirit soul and conscience, FREE... no more guilt or condemnation.. all this because of What Christ accomplished on that Tree.... It is Finished!

but YOU hath He quickened.. or made alive spiritually..... so that you can 'know' percieve and understand the things of God.. versus the carnal man.. he/she who is dead in trespasses and sins.. the things of God are 'foolishness' to them.. because they are 'spiriutally discerned'...

being Born AGain is an Operation of God HImself.. as He draws the Sinner to HImself.. and reveals Himself, Saving the Person and Empowering him/her with the Holy Ghost.. so that they can continue on their walk of Faith... this all authored by the Captain of their Salvation.. Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh.. He who came from Heaven.. for it behooved Him to be made like unto His Brethern... Jesus though.. was Pure and Had no Sin... yet He had flesh and blood like His Brethern.. this done so that He can be a faithful High Priest .. in the things that Pertain to God and His Children... amen and amen..

watchinginawe
Mar 24th 2010, 01:39 AM
What exactly happens when we get born again.We become a child of God. This happens because of who our Father is that is responsible for our birth. Here are some passages for consideration:

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.


I John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


The question that arises is:

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
...
38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

God Bless!

ross3421
Mar 24th 2010, 06:22 PM
[QUOTE=theBelovedDisciple;2373375]if one is not 'born again'.. then they are dead in trespasses and sins.. what is dead? your spirit.. your physically alive.. but your spirit is dead..

Nowhere in scipture supports a "dead" spirit. What would then be the difference from one who is first born without a spirit and one first born with a dead spirit......? nothing.


your made up of three parts... body, soul , and spirit...

But when? We are only first born with a body and a soul. We only become three parts when we are born again with the Spirit.

Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Now it could be argued that we are first born with are own spirit which then communes with the Spirit at the second birth. But I maintain that we are born as an empty vessel (empty soul without a spirit) which the battle in the heavens take place to win. So then could one being demonically filled still then have another spirit which we would call neutral??????


when One is Born AGain.. the 'spirit' part of your person is 'quickened' or made alive.. by the Holy Ghost..

The spirit part of your person...........I understand we are made alive by the Holy Ghost, the question is does he quicken a (dead) spirit already within us or at the second birth do we receive a spirit for the first time.

ross3421
Mar 24th 2010, 06:30 PM
because we are Adam's children, we are born spiritually separated from God,

Could this mean we are born without a spirit.............


Thus, our spirit has experienced death,

Again not to beat a dead horse here..........but a spirit cannot experience death so using it metophorically is not correct.


Our soul is in the process of 'dying daily',

Again our soul cannot die same as our spirit. The only thing which dies is our flesh phyisically. The soul houses the spirit. We are born with an emty vessel which NEEDS to be filled with a spirit, better yet a HOLY Spirit.


The difference in views in that you contend as many others that we are born with some type of spirit, I say we are spiritless until the second birth.

Freek
Mar 24th 2010, 06:32 PM
I'm smiling inwardly. If we do not even comprehend the basics of Christianity, how do we expect to go on to maturity?

Kahtar
Mar 24th 2010, 07:13 PM
The difference in views in that you contend as many others that we are born with some type of spirit, I say we are spiritless until the second birth.
Well, I think we have that view because scripture points us in that direction.
If you can provide scripture that shows that we do not have a spirit until we are born again, then by all means provide it.
Otherwise, you are free to have your own opinion, as we all are, however baseless it may be.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 24th 2010, 08:03 PM
Could this mean we are born without a spirit.............



Again not to beat a dead horse here..........but a spirit cannot experience death so using it metophorically is not correct.



Again our soul cannot die same as our spirit. The only thing which dies is our flesh phyisically. The soul houses the spirit. We are born with an emty vessel which NEEDS to be filled with a spirit, better yet a HOLY Spirit.


The difference in views in that you contend as many others that we are born with some type of spirit, I say we are spiritless until the second birth.


if you are born without a 'spirit' as you contend and profess...

then how do you 'breathe' on a daily basis? spirit is pneuma or breathe.. God gives that...

He gave that when He created Adam.. and that has not changed...

Man has a spirit when he/she is born..

where the Rubber hits the road is 'whose in control' of that 'spirit'...

is it under the direction of the Holy Ghost.. or does satan have control over it.. by one of his devils or many as in 'legion'...

Its Christ that 'sets the spirit' free from the satanic bondage that man finds himself in...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If one is born without a 'spirit'.. then you've never taken a breathe before in your life... and I know thats not True..

even an animal has a spirit


Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward , and the spirit of a beast that goeth downward.

Eccles. 3: 21

ross3421
Mar 25th 2010, 10:31 AM
how do you 'breathe' on a daily basis? spirit is pneuma or breathe.. God gives that...

He gave that when He created Adam..

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Where do you get that breath = spirit? "living soul" is not a living spirit, soul and spirit are not the same and interchangeable as you imply.


where the Rubber hits the road is 'whose in control' of that 'spirit'...
is it under the direction of the Holy Ghost.. or does Satan have control over it.. by one of his devils or many as in 'legion'...

It appears you feel man is born with a neutral spirit which may be controlled by a demon or the Holy Ghost.........rather one will be indwelled by either or.


Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward , and the spirit of a beast that goeth downward.

Eccles. 3: 21

The beast here does not speak of animals rather the wicked as correctly upon go into the earth (Hell).

ross3421
Mar 25th 2010, 10:48 AM
If you can provide scripture that shows that we do not have a spirit until we are born again, then by all means provide it.


Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

First birth

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;

Second birth

Joh 3:6 and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So the first birth is not a combination of flesh and spirit if it were then no one would need to be born again of the Spirit. Again if we are born with a spirit at the first birth then how does it differ from the Spirit we get at the second birth.??????

A spirit is a body control mechanism. When were are first born we are empty and do as the flesh desires. Some remain empty but others are demoniacally indwelt and probably more than we realize while some are Holy indwelt.

Freek
Mar 25th 2010, 11:38 AM
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

First birth

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;

Second birth

Joh 3:6 and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So the first birth is not a combination of flesh and spirit if it were then no one would need to be born again of the Spirit. Again if we are born with a spirit at the first birth then how does it differ from the Spirit we get at the second birth.??????

A spirit is a body control mechanism. When were are first born we are empty and do as the flesh desires. Some remain empty but others are demoniacally indwelt and probably more than we realize while some are Holy indwelt.

I never thought of it this way. Good one!! :D

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 01:06 PM
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

First birth

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;

Second birth

Joh 3:6 and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So the first birth is not a combination of flesh and spirit if it were then no one would need to be born again of the Spirit. Again if we are born with a spirit at the first birth then how does it differ from the Spirit we get at the second birth.??????

A spirit is a body control mechanism. When were are first born we are empty and do as the flesh desires. Some remain empty but others are demoniacally indwelt and probably more than we realize while some are Holy indwelt.

What then is the difference between the spirit of man and the spirit of God in the following scripture?

1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Zech 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

ross3421
Mar 25th 2010, 07:12 PM
What then is the difference between the spirit of man and the spirit of God in the following scripture?

1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Zech 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Thanks for the good question.

Pr 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

The spirit of man is the Spirit of God within a person. The Spirit of God thus is not given at the first birth.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Not everyone has this spirit and or is spiritual.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Firstfruits
Mar 26th 2010, 09:47 AM
Thanks for the good question.

Pr 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

The spirit of man is the Spirit of God within a person. The Spirit of God thus is not given at the first birth.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Not everyone has this spirit and or is spiritual.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Thanks Ross,

God bless you!

Firstfruits