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TheAnswer99
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:32 PM
I took an ethics course in college, and we discussed the morality of lying during one class session

We discussed whether it was right or wrong to lie

This was prior to my re-birth as a Christian, so I did not really care about the Godly perspective on this

I ask this:
1.) Does the Bible forbid LYING or does it simply forbid BEARING FALSE WITNESS (the latter being a form of lying)
2.) If it does forbid lying, would it have been wrong to lie to Nazi soldiers about the Jewish neighbors you are hiding in your attic?

Servant89
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:51 PM
Rad Exo 1:17-21; Josua 9 (the whole chapter); Read Joshua 2:3-4 and Joshua 6:2-25. There are about 9 more examples like that in the Bible where Rom 7:4 shines in glorious splendor.

Shalom

BruceG
Mar 23rd 2010, 10:52 PM
I took an ethics course in college, and we discussed the morality of lying during one class session

We discussed whether it was right or wrong to lie

This was prior to my re-birth as a Christian, so I did not really care about the Godly perspective on this

I ask this:
1.) Does the Bible forbid LYING or does it simply forbid BEARING FALSE WITNESS (the latter being a form of lying)
2.) If it does forbid lying, would it have been wrong to lie to Nazi soldiers about the Jewish neighbors you are hiding in your attic?

Excellent question, and funny you should bring up the example you did. It happened in the Bible.

When the spies went into the land before the Jewish army came to take the land, they hid at the house of one Rahab the harlot. Her house was actually IN the wall of the city with a window looking out. She knew the Israelites were coming and that they served the true God. So she hid them and lied to the authorities to protect them. She only asked that she be remembered when they plundered the city. She was to tie a red cloth in the window, so she would be spared. The spies promised her protection. Sure enough, the city was plundered and she was protected with her family.

Not only was lying here acceptable, she is even listed in Hebrews 11 as one of the heroes of faith!

We must never try to pin God down as to what he can or can't do. He is God, LOL, and we are simply semi-educated servants.

Bruce

Frecs
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:16 PM
I ask this:
1.) Does the Bible forbid LYING or does it simply forbid BEARING FALSE WITNESS (the latter being a form of lying)

Good question! I did a search of Nave's Topical Bible and here are all the verses pertaining to "falsehoods":

Exd 20:16; 23:1; Lev 6:2-7; 19:11, 12, 16; Job 13:4; 21:34; 27:4; 31:5, 6, 33; 36:4; Psa 5:6, 9; 10:7; 12:2, 3; 28:3; 31:18; 34:13; 36:3; 50:19, 20; 52:2-5; 55:21, 23; 58:3; 59:12; 62:4; 63:11; 101:5, 7; 109:2; 116:11; 119:29, 69, 163; 120:2-4; 144:8, 11; Pro 2:12-15; 3:3; 6:12, 13, 17-19; 10:9, 10, 18, 31; 11:9; 12:17, 19, 20, 22; 13:5; 14:5, 8, 25; 17:4, 7; 19:5, 9, 22, 28; 20:17; 21:6; 26:18, 19, 24-26, 28; 27:14; Ecc 5:6; Isa 28:15; 32:7; 57:11; 59:3, 4, 12, 13; 63:8; Jer 7:8, 28; 9:3, 5, 6, 8; 12:6; 50:36; Eze 22:9; Hsa 4:1, 2; Oba 1:7; Mic 6:12; Nah 3:1; Zep 3:13; Mat 25:44-46; Jhn 8:44, 45; Eph 4:25, 29; Col 3:9; 1Ti 1:9, 10; 4:2; 1Pe 3:10, 16; Rev 21:8, 27; 22:15

Per Nave's other word searches would include: ACCUSATION, FALSE; CONSPIRACY; DECEIT; DECEPTION; FALSE WITNESS; FLATTERY; HYPOCRISY; PERJURY; TEACHERS, FALSE.

You can easily do a word study by going to www.blueletterbible.org. Word studies can be quite interesting so you might want to take the time to go through the different words used for falsehood/lying and see what the Holy Spirit might reveal. :D

Essentially, though, lying is a sin whether one is bearing false witness or trying to cover one's crime or to protect other.


2.) If it does forbid lying, would it have been wrong to lie to Nazi soldiers about the Jewish neighbors you are hiding in your attic?

The Jewish midwives lied to save the Hebrew male children from death (and saved Moses' life in the process). Rahab lied, saving the Israelite spies and being rewarded with the lives of her family (and becoming part of the genealogy of Jesus!). But, even though their motives were good and the results commendable, their lies were still sins and needed to be repented of.

Did Corrie ten Boon and many others who hid Jews from the Nazis sin in doing so? They lied which was a sin. But, the reason was commendable. Repentance was necessary. Now, some say that lying isn't as bad as murder. To our eyes that is definitely true. To God's eyes, sin is sin is sin. To God, gluttony and gossip is just as bad as murder.

I just finished reading Leviticus. In all the laws given to the Israelites, I did not read anywhere that it is okay to lie for a better good. I do not recall any NT scriptures to that affect either and the Early Church was dealing with persecution of Christians by the Romans. Well, I suppose there is the passage about loving your neighbor as yourself. But, Jesus said to not fear the one who can kill the body but not the soul but rather to fear he who can kill both (ie., God). But, Jesus (see Matthew 5) also taught that we are held to an even higher standard than The Law--that our thoughts and heart intent is as much an issue as our actions. :B

So, what is the answer? I don't know. I know that put in the position, I would lie to save the life of another--but I would not lie to save my own life. I know where I am going when I die, I have nothing to fear. But, yes, I would sin to save another and be thankful that my Lord has covered my sin under His blood.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Servant89
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:25 PM
Read Mat 12:1-6 where it shows that sometimes breaking the letter of the law is not a sin, when we do it to fulfill the Spirit of the law.

Shalom

Frecs
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:38 PM
Excellent question, and funny you should bring up the example you did. It happened in the Bible.

When the spies went into the land before the Jewish army came to take the land, they hid at the house of one Rahab the harlot. Her house was actually IN the wall of the city with a window looking out. She knew the Israelites were coming and that they served the true God. So she hid them and lied to the authorities to protect them. She only asked that she be remembered when they plundered the city. She was to tie a red cloth in the window, so she would be spared. The spies promised her protection. Sure enough, the city was plundered and she was protected with her family.

Not only was lying here acceptable, she is even listed in Hebrews 11 as one of the heroes of faith!

We must never try to pin God down as to what he can or can't do. He is God, LOL, and we are simply semi-educated servants.

Bruce

Rahab is indeed counted among the heros of faith. But, does that necessary mean that her falsehood was not counted as a sin in need of repentence? Are the two mutually exclusive? Romans 3:7 says "someone might argue, "if my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Just because Rahab's faith was counted to her as righteousness did not make her sinless. She made the better choice as did the midwives....but they had to sin to do so.... :o

Frecs
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:44 PM
Read Mat 12:1-6 where it shows that sometimes breaking the letter of the law is not a sin, when we do it to fulfill the Spirit of the law.

Shalom

Mat 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Lying to save lives would definitely count as "mercy". By jove, I think we have a winner. :pp

Backtracking a few verses:
Mat 12:5-6 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.

We, being the new priesthood, would certainly be in a position to choose mercy over law. Yep, that's the answer. I love it when we can reason together peacefully. :D

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 06:56 PM
I took an ethics course in college, and we discussed the morality of lying during one class session

We discussed whether it was right or wrong to lie

This was prior to my re-birth as a Christian, so I did not really care about the Godly perspective on this

I ask this:
1.) Does the Bible forbid LYING or does it simply forbid BEARING FALSE WITNESS (the latter being a form of lying)
2.) If it does forbid lying, would it have been wrong to lie to Nazi soldiers about the Jewish neighbors you are hiding in your attic?

With regards to the following scripture, all liars are in danger of the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Firstfruits

Frecs
Mar 24th 2010, 07:33 PM
With regards to the following scripture, all liars are in danger of the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Firstfruits

It also says:

1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist-he denies the Father and the Son.

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 07:49 PM
It also says:

1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist-he denies the Father and the Son.

Amen Frecs,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Crosstalk
Mar 24th 2010, 07:53 PM
I thought of Rahab too Bruce and it says this in Hebrews 11:31

"By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace."

Another good example is found in Exodus 1 as Frecs already pointed out.

"And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live." Ex. 1:16

Of course the midwives didn't that, and to cover up the fact they lied to the Pharaoh and guess what, God was pleased and rewarded them.

"But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?

And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.Ex. 1:17-22

Corry Ten Boom was mentioned and I read somewhere that they struggled with the fact that they had to lie to the Nazis about hiding Jews. There was no need though
since they were not deceiving for wicked gain but to save lives.

Frecs mentioned:
Did Corrie ten Boon and many others who hid Jews from the Nazis sin in doing so? They lied which was a sin. But, the reason was commendable. Repentance was necessary.I disagree. I don't believe it was ever judged as a sin.

Reynolds357
Mar 24th 2010, 08:02 PM
Certain types of deception is kind of like killing during time of declared war.

Servant89
Mar 24th 2010, 09:47 PM
Mat 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Lying to save lives would definitely count as "mercy". By jove, I think we have a winner. :pp

Backtracking a few verses:
Mat 12:5-6 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.

We, being the new priesthood, would certainly be in a position to choose mercy over law. Yep, that's the answer. I love it when we can reason together peacefully. :D

Amen ! We are in agreement there!

Peace.

Athanasius
Mar 24th 2010, 10:55 PM
As has been pointed out, it depends on the circumstance. Frecs said it well :)

Servant89
Mar 24th 2010, 11:44 PM
People do not get the point... that faith must be active, but the BIble uses actions that prove our faith, that at the same time are not the works of the law, because God does not want us to assume that the actions that prove our faith is to keep the law. That is why we see so many examples of people that did the right thing to prove their faith but the action violated the law, like not telling the truth.

A good example is the story of the Gibeonites in Joshua 9. They were on God's list for destruction and yet got saved anyway and became part of Israel and part of God's elect... they did that by not telling the truth to Joshua, that action proved they had faith in the God of Israel. And as Mat 12:1-6 shows, it is not a sin !!!!!

Shalom

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 08:45 AM
Mat 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Lying to save lives would definitely count as "mercy". By jove, I think we have a winner. :pp

Backtracking a few verses:
Mat 12:5-6 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.

We, being the new priesthood, would certainly be in a position to choose mercy over law. Yep, that's the answer. I love it when we can reason together peacefully. :D

How then do we apply what Jesus said?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

When it comes to lying, who is excluded?

Fruitsfruits

Frecs
Mar 25th 2010, 02:17 PM
Firstfruits asked:

How then do we apply what Jesus said?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

When it comes to lying, who is excluded?


How indeed. Many good points have been brought out regarding individuals and groups in the Bible who lied and seemed to be rewarded and praised for their actions. Since we know that God is not a man that HE should lie, we can trust that when He said not to lie (tell falsehoods/deceive) that He meant it. So, what gives? Servant89 shared this:


People do not get the point... that faith must be active, but the BIble uses actions that prove our faith, that at the same time are not the works of the law, because God does not want us to assume that the actions that prove our faith is to keep the law. That is why we see so many examples of people that did the right thing to prove their faith but the action violated the law, like not telling the truth.

We know that faith without works is dead and that we show our faith by our works (keeping in mind that works do not save us). Servant89 is also right in pointing out that we are not under the Law any longer….but clearly even under the New Covenant lying is not acceptable. Ananias and his wife were struck dead for lying to the Holy Spirit! Oh, my.

I’m not one to condone “situational ethics”. I think the gray areas are much smaller than we’d like them to be. But, as I posted earlier, God prefers mercy, not sacrifice (Matt 12:7)—and, perhaps He also prefers merciful self-sacrifice intended to save life even when that might require lying or deception. I also posted the verse in 1 John 2:22 which states that the liar is the one who denies Jesus as the Christ.

Here’s what concerns me, though…there are those who bomb and kill and slander and all sorts of evil in the “name of God” because they think they are achieving a greater good. Lying is probably the least of their sins! (Not that God ranks sins as we like to do.) Is it enough to believe in our heart that what we do is ethical and moral and worthy of breaking a few holy directives/standards? Can we trust our own heart? Jer 17:9 "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], And desperately wicked; Who can know it? Clearly Corrie ten Boom, the French village that sheltered Jewish children, the Israelite midwives, Rahab, and others were non-aggressive in their acts of mercy and perhaps that could serve as a good measure? Ananias wasn’t aggressive—but his lie was for self-gain not for the good of others. That could also serve as a good measure—are we serving others or ourselves? Are we seeking the good of others or ourselves?

Ultimately, God judges the heart. Jer 11:20 But, O Lord Almighty, you who judge righteously and test the heart and mind…

Sorry for the thesis…

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 03:38 PM
Firstfruits asked:


How indeed. Many good points have been brought out regarding individuals and groups in the Bible who lied and seemed to be rewarded and praised for their actions. Since we know that God is not a man that HE should lie, we can trust that when He said not to lie (tell falsehoods/deceive) that He meant it. So, what gives? Servant89 shared this:



We know that faith without works is dead and that we show our faith by our works (keeping in mind that works do not save us). Servant89 is also right in pointing out that we are not under the Law any longer….but clearly even under the New Covenant lying is not acceptable. Ananias and his wife were struck dead for lying to the Holy Spirit! Oh, my.

I’m not one to condone “situational ethics”. I think the gray areas are much smaller than we’d like them to be. But, as I posted earlier, God prefers mercy, not sacrifice (Matt 12:7)—and, perhaps He also prefers merciful self-sacrifice intended to save life even when that might require lying or deception. I also posted the verse in 1 John 2:22 which states that the liar is the one who denies Jesus as the Christ.

Here’s what concerns me, though…there are those who bomb and kill and slander and all sorts of evil in the “name of God” because they think they are achieving a greater good. Lying is probably the least of their sins! (Not that God ranks sins as we like to do.) Is it enough to believe in our heart that what we do is ethical and moral and worthy of breaking a few holy directives/standards? Can we trust our own heart? Jer 17:9 "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], And desperately wicked; Who can know it? Clearly Corrie ten Boom, the French village that sheltered Jewish children, the Israelite midwives, Rahab, and others were non-aggressive in their acts of mercy and perhaps that could serve as a good measure? Ananias wasn’t aggressive—but his lie was for self-gain not for the good of others. That could also serve as a good measure—are we serving others or ourselves? Are we seeking the good of others or ourselves?

Ultimately, God judges the heart. Jer 11:20 But, O Lord Almighty, you who judge righteously and test the heart and mind…

Sorry for the thesis…

How can we worship God and at the same time be found liars?

Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

3 Jn 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Firstfruits

Frecs
Mar 25th 2010, 07:22 PM
How can we worship God and at the same time be found liars?

Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

3 Jn 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

FirstFruits

Something that seems so easy and fairly straight forward is rarely so. Such is the case for the OP’s original question. Is it always wrong to lie? But, as we have progressed through the various facets of this question, we’ve seen that it isn’t as easy as it seems. I searched for a scriptural argument to support my previous statements while responding to your question quoted above. At the moment, I’m not sure how to reconcile my previous statements with the following…it will become a focus of :pray: and meditation for sure. This passage in Hebrews gave me reason to go :hmm:….I’ve highlighted a few points that I thought interesting…



Heb 10:15-39 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time”, says the Lord. “I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another-and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."

It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering? Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.

But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Servant89
Mar 25th 2010, 07:37 PM
Rom 7:4 states that unless we are dead to the law, we can not marry Christ or bear fruit. We must be dead to the law. Being dead to the law means believing 2Cor 3:1-18. That the law written in stone was removed, abolished it does not apply to us anymore. To us Christians I mean. In the absence of the law, there is no transgression.

ROM 4:15 … for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROM 5:13 … but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

That is why it is also said:

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected For ever them that are sanctified.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The reason why we can not sin is because of two things: The law was removed, and the blood washes us clean.

The reason why people go to hell is because they sin. The reason why sinners go to heaven is not because we stopped violating God's law.... it because of God's mercy and grace. We all violate God's law... Read it.

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

2 Cor 3:4-5 answers the question about trusting ourselves to make that judgment call on these situations and the answer is now we can trust the HS to help us. READ THOSE TWO VERSES!!!!!

A Christian full of the HS does business by love and does not measures himself/herself relative to the law anymore because we are dead to the law.

Do policemen or people that drive ambunlances or firetrucks measure themselves relative to traffic laws? No they don't. Why? The traffic laws do not apply to them.

Shalom

Athanasius
Mar 26th 2010, 03:10 AM
How then do we apply what Jesus said?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

When it comes to lying, who is excluded?

Fruitsfruits

Would God rather you starve on the sabbath, or eat? Protect Jews in your basement from Nazi's, or give them up because you didn't want to lie? I don't think it's a very difficult decision.

Frecs
Mar 26th 2010, 10:37 AM
Would God rather you starve on the sabbath, or eat? Protect Jews in your basement from Nazi's, or give them up because you didn't want to lie? I don't think it's a very difficult decision.

I'm still thinking that the "liars" that are spoken of in Rev 21:8 are those who deny Christ.

Firstfruits
Mar 26th 2010, 01:53 PM
Would God rather you starve on the sabbath, or eat? Protect Jews in your basement from Nazi's, or give them up because you didn't want to lie? I don't think it's a very difficult decision.

According to the following we are told not to lie, I am unaware of exceptions to the rule.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Firstfruits

Frecs
Mar 26th 2010, 07:11 PM
According to the following we are told not to lie, I am unaware of exceptions to the rule.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Firstfruits

Okay, let's go wth the idea that God says, "Do Not Lie. Period"

Now, how would you answer the question "What are Christians to do when faced with the persecution of others?" Note: I said "others" not ourselves as I believe the Hebrews chapter 10 verses I previously posted indicated we should stand by joyfully on such occasions. But, when a Christian sees a whole people group such as the Jews or Mentally Ill being persecuted and killed...what is to be our response? We can't lie so that leaves out hiding them (Rahab and the ten Booms). It also means we can't lie about not killing them when ordered (Israelite midwives).

It would seem that the Hebrews passage suggests standing with them and laying down our lives with them. Is that the right or only stance to take? What do you think God's word says?

MTK
Mar 26th 2010, 08:23 PM
Jesus Christ shed His blood and gave His life so that we might be forgiven and be free of sin. To lie is to sin, there is no doubt about that and we know Jesus didn't lie and never would, no matter whatever the circumstances are. So, do we strive to be like Jesus Christ and to be free of sin, or do we continue in sin and forfeit the pursuit of being as pure and holy as Jesus Christ? I hope we all are in agreement that it's God will that we be conformed to the image of Christ.

Athanasius
Mar 26th 2010, 09:16 PM
According to the following we are told not to lie, I am unaware of exceptions to the rule.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Firstfruits

How would you answer my question?

Steven3
Mar 27th 2010, 04:05 AM
Corry Ten Boom was mentioned and I read somewhere that they struggled with the fact that they had to lie to the Nazis about hiding Jews. There was no need though since they were not deceiving for wicked gain but to save lives. Well like Rahab it would have been judged as a minor sin, lesser evil. God know's we'll sin and overlooks sins done with the right sorry attitude and prayer. Like Hezekiah breaking the law on Passover, he prayed first, God said okay.

What would Jesus have done in Corry Ten Boom's position ---- I believe he would have offered himself to the Nazis and as a result been hauled away and shot and maybe as a result the lives of the Jews he was hiding in the attic would have been lost too. But God would have raised them anyway.

My problem with this is that the moment Christians find one hint of a semi-truth in the Bible they're off lying left-right-and-centre. Honesty is a major major problem with modern Christians, particularly those who think they have a HS blank check on any form of deception. It's still sin.

Freek
Mar 27th 2010, 09:47 AM
Well like Rahab it would have been judged as a minor sin, lesser evil. God know's we'll sin and overlooks sins done with the right sorry attitude and prayer. Like Hezekiah breaking the law on Passover, he prayed first, God said okay.

What would Jesus have done in Corry Ten Boom's position ---- I believe he would have offered himself to the Nazis and as a result been hauled away and shot and maybe as a result the lives of the Jews he was hiding in the attic would have been lost too. But God would have raised them anyway.

My problem with this is that the moment Christians find one hint of a semi-truth in the Bible they're off lying left-right-and-centre. Honesty is a major major problem with modern Christians, particularly those who think they have a HS blank check on any form of deception. It's still sin.

We must keep in mind that Rahab was a heathen and therefore it was excused. We are born again and are held to a different standard than she was. If we are truly led by the Holy Spirit, He will tell us what to say or do in a situation like Corrie's. God cannot lie and one of the armor pieces of God is the belt of truth. The devil is a lier and the father thereof, so how can we lie and justify it? Whose children are we? Figuring this out with the natural mind, is difficult if not impossible.

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 11:05 AM
We must keep in mind that Rahab was a heathen and therefore it was excused. We are born again and are held to a different standard than she was. If we are truly led by the Holy Spirit, He will tell us what to say or do in a situation like Corrie's. God cannot lie and one of the armor pieces of God is the belt of truth. The devil is a lier and the father thereof, so how can we lie and justify it? Whose children are we? Figuring this out with the natural mind, is difficult if not impossible.

I agree. Also if we can justify lying in certain situations, that means we can also justify any other sin. Would it be okay to steal, murder, commit adultery or perharps even deny our Lord if by doing so we could save lifes?
It is exactly in those situations, when it is humanly impossible to do the right thing, we can bring glory to the name of Jesus Christ by doing through His Spirit the right thing even if it means we or others will suffer because of it. And we have to remember that God can always protect us, we never have to lie or deceive to protect ourselves.

Servant89
Mar 27th 2010, 11:07 AM
According to the following we are told not to lie, I am unaware of exceptions to the rule.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Firstfruits

Yes, you are aware of the exceptions to the rule. We have posted them here. Foe example; Mat 12:1-6; Josh 9; the story of Rahab and Exo 1:16-20; but in spite that God stood up and clapped and said: BRAVO ! when they lied, you still insist they sinned.

The ultmate one is John 5:16-18.

There is nothing else we can do but show you the Scriptures. John 8:43 comes to mind.

Shalom

Freek
Mar 27th 2010, 11:48 AM
Yes, you are aware of the exceptions to the rule. We have posted them here. Foe example; Mat 12:1-6; Josh 9; the story of Rahab and Exo 1:16-20; but in spite that God stood up and clapped and said: BRAVO ! when they lied, you still insist they sinned.

The ultmate one is John 5:16-18.

There is nothing else we can do but show you the Scriptures. John 8:43 comes to mind.

Shalom

You still have to show from Scripture that a born again man or woman lied and it was condoned. You mentioned John 8:43. Please read verse 44 also. :D

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2010, 12:08 PM
My problem with this is that the moment Christians find one hint of a semi-truth in the Bible they're off lying left-right-and-centre.

Let's leave deviant behavior (or "more deviant," if you prefer) out of this.


I agree. Also if we can justify lying in certain situations, that means we can also justify any other sin. Would it be okay to steal, murder, commit adultery or perharps even deny our Lord if by doing so we could save lifes?

No, it doesn't, necessarily. You're arguing atop that slippery slope.

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 12:49 PM
Let's leave deviant behavior (or "more deviant," if you prefer) out of this.



No, it doesn't, necessarily. You're arguing atop that slippery slope.

Xel'Naga, do you agree that we should be conformed to the image of Christ, that we should live our lives as He would?
Do you also agree that there is no lie or deception in Christ? If you do agree, isn't it then clear that there is no room for any lies in our lives?

EarlyCall
Mar 27th 2010, 01:08 PM
Is it wrong to lie in all circumstances? It is best to first go to the word of God and see if we have what I call living examples. God lived out His word through others throughout the writing of His word. And some in this thread have given good examples.

I also like to use logic. I believe it is permissible to serve in the military and to kill the enemy in a time of war. I will not debate this issue in this thread. Therefore, let's say that someone is captured and interrogated by the enemy. They did not sin when they killed the enemy but would sin if they lied to the enemy? The basis is war,which justifies killing the enemy and by the same rationale justifies lying to the enemy.

Servant89
Mar 27th 2010, 02:01 PM
You still have to show from Scripture that a born again man or woman lied and it was condoned. You mentioned John 8:43. Please read verse 44 also. :D

Ohhhh.... Oh! Oh! Oh! You got me good!!!!!!!!!! I am on the floor gasping for air... Good one!!! Don't you love the WORD? I love it! Thanks. Let me recover, give me a minute. Someone please call the paramedics...

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 27th 2010, 02:04 PM
Xel'Naga, do you agree that we should be conformed to the image of Christ, that we should live our lives as He would?
Do you also agree that there is no lie or deception in Christ? If you do agree, isn't it then clear that there is no room for any lies in our lives?

But when it comes to putting people first, putting them above our resume in the law, Jesus did that.

John 5:16-18 states Jesus broke the Sabbath rest (by working) in order to put people first. In Mat 12:1-6 Jesus defended himself by stating there are times that doing that which is unlawful is the right thing to do. If God said there are exceptions to the rule, there are. And born again Christians are not under the law (2Cor 3:1-8). We do business based on love.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 27th 2010, 02:12 PM
We all agree we need to tell the truth, at least 99.9% of the time. The argument comes with some exceptions.

Shall I tell the truth about where Christians are so the enemy finds them and kill them? Shall I? If I do that, I care more for my resume in the law than fellow Christians.

Shalom

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2010, 02:47 PM
Xel'Naga, do you agree that we should be conformed to the image of Christ, that we should live our lives as He would?
Do you also agree that there is no lie or deception in Christ? If you do agree, isn't it then clear that there is no room for any lies in our lives?

I agree with all of the above, but no, it is not clear, especially when you have two principles in conflict: the command not to lie, and the command not to murder. That's the reality of a fallen world, and part of this reality is that there may be cases where we may need to lie, especially to save an innocent life. And if God damns me for lying to a genocidal government, so be it.

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 02:52 PM
Okay, let's go wth the idea that God says, "Do Not Lie. Period"

Now, how would you answer the question "What are Christians to do when faced with the persecution of others?" Note: I said "others" not ourselves as I believe the Hebrews chapter 10 verses I previously posted indicated we should stand by joyfully on such occasions. But, when a Christian sees a whole people group such as the Jews or Mentally Ill being persecuted and killed...what is to be our response? We can't lie so that leaves out hiding them (Rahab and the ten Booms). It also means we can't lie about not killing them when ordered (Israelite midwives).

It would seem that the Hebrews passage suggests standing with them and laying down our lives with them. Is that the right or only stance to take? What do you think God's word says?

This is what the word of God says.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


Firstfruits

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 03:01 PM
We all agree we need to tell the truth, at least 99.9% of the time. The argument comes with some exceptions.

Shall I tell the truth about where Christians are so the enemy finds them and kill them? Shall I? If I do that, I care more for my resume in the law than fellow Christians.

Shalom

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.*If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" 1John 1 5-6

There is no darkness in God. To lie is of darkness. There is no lie or deception in God, nor should there be in us if are His children. If we walk in the Spirit of Truth we always speak the truth.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44

Lying is of the devil, how could then children of holy God lie?

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1John 2:6

If we truely love Jesus, we will walk as He walked and I'm sure Jesus spoke the truth 100% of the time.

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 03:10 PM
"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.*If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" 1John 1 5-6

There is no darkness in God. To lie is of darkness. There is no lie or deception in God, nor should there be in us if are His children. If we walk in the Spirit of Truth we always speak the truth.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44

Lying is of the devil, how could then children of holy God lie?

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1John 2:6

If we truely love Jesus, we will walk as He walked and I'm sure Jesus spoke the truth 100% of the time.

Agreed, we must know to whom we yield.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 03:19 PM
I agree with all of the above, but no, it is not clear, especially when you have two principles in conflict: the command not to lie, and the command not to murder. That's the reality of a fallen world, and part of this reality is that there may be cases where we may need to lie, especially to save an innocent life. And if God damns me for lying to a genocidal government, so be it.

We never have to lie to save an innocent life, everything is in the hands of God. Shouldn't we trust Him with our own and others lives if we have faith that He is truely all mighty and nothing is impossible to Him.
And in a situation you described, instead of lying we can choose not to say anything i.e reveal the location of other believers in hiding. And if we were to crack under torture and reveal where they are hiding, we wouldn't be held responsible for their deaths. Lord also can give us the strength to endure that torture so that His own stay safe.

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 03:26 PM
We never have to lie to save an innocent life, everything is in the hands of God. Shouldn't we trust Him with our own and others lives if we have faith that He is truely all mighty and nothing is impossible to Him.
And in a situation you described, instead of lying we can choose not to say anything i.e reveal the location of other believers in hiding. And if we were to crack under torture and reveal where they are hiding, we wouldn't be held responsible for their deaths. Lord also can give us the strength to endure that torture so that His own stay safe.

According to Jesus when the antichrist shall come at the end, those that worship him will be betraying those that do not worship the antichrist.

Mt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Firstfruits

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 03:39 PM
Agreed, we must know to whom we yield.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Exactly. If we are His own, in Him and we know Him through His Spirit, He will teach us about everything and we don't have to walk in sin, even in the most humanly difficult situations as described above, we can through Him walk in the truth not giving any room to sin in our life.

God bless you to brother/sister !

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 03:49 PM
Exactly. If we are His own, in Him and we know Him through His Spirit, He will teach us about everything and we don't have to walk in sin, even in the most humanly difficult situations as described above, we can through Him walk in the truth not giving any room to sin in our life.

God bless you to brother/sister !

Thanks MTK,

God bless you too!

It is brother.

Firstfruits

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2010, 03:58 PM
We never have to lie to save an innocent life, everything is in the hands of God. Shouldn't we trust Him with our own and others lives if we have faith that He is truely all mighty and nothing is impossible to Him.
And in a situation you described, instead of lying we can choose not to say anything i.e reveal the location of other believers in hiding. And if we were to crack under torture and reveal where they are hiding, we wouldn't be held responsible for their deaths. Lord also can give us the strength to endure that torture so that His own stay safe.

Not answering a question is lying (omission), just as giving the wrong answer (stating a falsehood). You seem to have no issue with going against the government, why you're so focused on lying is something I don't understand. And tell me, how many innocent lives would God have saved if no one intervened in World War II? Hmm? Ein reich, ein volk, ein fuhrer... brother?

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 04:02 PM
Not answering a question is lying (omission), just as giving the wrong answer (stating a falsehood). You seem to have no issue with going against the government, why you're so focused on lying is something I don't understand. And tell me, how many innocent lives would God have saved if no one intervened in World War II? Hmm? Ein reich, ein volk, ein fuhrer... brother?

So when Jesus held his peace was he lying?

Mt 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

Mt 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Firstfruits

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2010, 04:15 PM
So when Jesus held his peace was he lying?

Mt 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

Mt 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Firstfruits

Jesus answers the question in v.64

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 04:19 PM
Jesus answers the question in v.64

But he did not answer straight away he did not answer until verse 64 as you say, so before that was Jesus lying?

Firstfruits

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 04:25 PM
Not answering a question is lying (omission), just as giving the wrong answer (stating a falsehood). You seem to have no issue with going against the government, why you're so focused on lying is something I don't understand. And tell me, how many innocent lives would God have saved if no one intervened in World War II? Hmm? Ein reich, ein volk, ein fuhrer... brother?

What I meant by "not to say anything", that we be completely silent like Jesus was before Herod. I agree saying something and omitting information as to deceive is lying. And about going against the government, no I don't believe if we are to follow Jesus we can rebel against the government even if it is oppressing us.

Your question about WW II doesn't pertain to what we are discussing, so I don't say anything to that so we stay on-topic.

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2010, 04:27 PM
But he did not answer straight away he did not answer until verse 64 as you say, so before that was Jesus lying?

Firstfruits

You know, v.64 was probably 5 seconds after v.63... But anyway, if he had kept silent, I suspect so, yes. However, now you're modifying your question.


What I meant by "not to say anything", that we be completely silent like Jesus was before Herod. I agree saying something and omitting information as to deceive is lying. And about going against the government, no I don't believe if we are to follow Jesus we can rebel against the government even if it is oppressing us.

Your question about WW II doesn't pertain to what we are discussing, so I don't say anything to that so we stay on-topic.

If you're referring to Matthew 26, Jesus answered the question He was asked. And as for WWII, yes, it does pertain. If you're referring to Luke 23, then go ahead...

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 04:32 PM
You know, v.64 was probably 5 seconds after v.63... But anyway, if he had kept silent, I suspect so, yes. However, now you're modifying your question.



If you're referring to Matthew 26, Jesus answered the question He was asked. And as for WWII, yes, it does pertain.

I'm referring to Luke 23 "9He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer."

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2010, 04:33 PM
I'm referring to Luke 23 "9He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer."

What were the questions? And if you missed it, there is a parallel between the Hebrew midwives (who lied, and protected Moses), Rahab (who lied, and protected the Israeli spies) and Corrie ten boom (who lied, and protected Jews). The lies aren't praised, nor are they condemned, so I would say they are permissible in specific circumstances.

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 04:36 PM
You know, v.64 was probably 5 seconds after v.63... But anyway, if he had kept silent, I suspect so, yes. However, now you're modifying your question.



If you're referring to Matthew 26, Jesus answered the question He was asked. And as for WWII, yes, it does pertain. If you're referring to Luke 23, then go ahead...

I would not say that Jesus lied, otherwise the following could not be true.

1 Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Firstfruits

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 04:37 PM
What were the questions?

"8When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform some miracle. 9He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer."

What Herod asked Jesus isn't told.

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2010, 04:37 PM
I would not say that Jesus lied, otherwise the following could not be true.

1 Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Firstfruits

Jesus didn't lie, He answered the question.

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2010, 04:38 PM
"8When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform some miracle. 9He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer."

What Herod asked Jesus isn't told.

How do you know Jesus lied? I would submit that lying is "bearing false witness," and to refuse to answer a charge of false witness is not lying. But to refuse to answer a question (in which you must answer something true about yourself), then that is lying.

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 04:46 PM
How do you know Jesus lied? I would submit that lying is "bearing false witness," and to refuse to answer a charge of false witness is not lying. But to refuse to answer a question (in which you must answer something true about yourself), then that is lying.

I never said Jesus lied. My point always has been that because Jesus never lied neither should we lie. And to be silent when asked something is not lying. To lie means you say something that is not true.

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2010, 04:48 PM
I never said Jesus lied. My point always has been that because Jesus never lied neither should we lie. And to be silent when asked something is not lying. To lie means you say something that is not true.

No, there are instances where not saying something is lying (but not all instances). Elijah lied, Rahab lied, the Hebrew Midwives lied... Show me where these people are condemned? And that's my point.

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 05:03 PM
Jesus was not asked a question until verse 63.

Matthew 26:59-64
59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

I hope that explains the misunderstanding.

Firstfruits

MTK
Mar 27th 2010, 05:06 PM
No, there are instances where not saying something is lying (but not all instances). Elijah lied, Rahab lied, the Hebrew Midwives lied... Show me where these people are condemned? And that's my point.

Xel'Naga, is lying sin to you? If you say yes, then why are you still arguing about this? If Elijah,Rahab,the Hebrew Midwives lied, then they sinned against our Lord and needed to repent. Jesus died so we who are liars could be forgiven and through Him be renewed in Spirit so that we wouldn't be liars anymore.
I don't still see how being silent could be lying.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 32:8

Servant89
Mar 27th 2010, 11:02 PM
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 32:8

That's right. The reason why people go to hell is because they broke God's law. But that does not mean that the reason why people go to heaven is because they keep the law. NO WAY!

For those that are under grace, through faith, the law was removed, it was nailed to the cross and it does not apply to us. 2Cor 3:1-18;Rom 8:1; Heb 10:14, etc.

ROM 4:15 … for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROM 5:13 … but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Shalom

Frecs
Mar 27th 2010, 11:12 PM
We all agree we need to tell the truth, at least 99.9% of the time. The argument comes with some exceptions.

Shall I tell the truth about where Christians are so the enemy finds them and kill them? Shall I? If I do that, I care more for my resume in the law than fellow Christians.

Shalom

But, is there an alternative in this scenario? How about saying nothing one way or the other? It might mean losing one's own life or being beaten but herhaps that is the better stance based on Hebrews 10?

Frecs
Mar 27th 2010, 11:17 PM
This is what the word of God says.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


Firstfruits

Hebrews 10 has really been on my mind on this issue. The verses you mention here add to the way my meditations have been leaning....that we should be willing to be beaten, tortured, or killed for a greater good...that there are better, more Christ-like options to lying....it's easy to allow the world's sense of ethics (situational ethics) color our reasoning in way that is not God's way. God does not teach situational ethics. Are there passages in the Bible telling of people who were "rewarded" for breaking God's moral law? Yes. But, that does not mean that God condones their behavior.

Athanasius
Mar 28th 2010, 12:13 AM
Xel'Naga, is lying sin to you? If you say yes, then why are you still arguing about this? If Elijah,Rahab,the Hebrew Midwives lied, then they sinned against our Lord and needed to repent. Jesus died so we who are liars could be forgiven and through Him be renewed in Spirit so that we wouldn't be liars anymore.
I don't still see how being silent could be lying.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 32:8

Answer the question -- were they condemned for lying?

Servant89
Mar 28th 2010, 01:20 AM
"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.*If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" 1John 1 5-6

There is no darkness in God. To lie is of darkness. There is no lie or deception in God, nor should there be in us if are His children. If we walk in the Spirit of Truth we always speak the truth.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44

Lying is of the devil, how could then children of holy God lie?

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1John 2:6

If we truely love Jesus, we will walk as He walked and I'm sure Jesus spoke the truth 100% of the time.

We all agree on that. But there are exceptions. One big item is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. God killed the letter to establish the spirit. Read it in 2Cor 3. Jesus fulfilled the spirit of the law by working on Saturdays which goes against the letter of the law (John 5:16-18). The law says Remember the Sabbath day, and God forgot to quote it in the NT.

TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER…

Commandment # 1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30; 1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19. Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; 2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2: Stay away from idols. Acts 15:20,29; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 5:11; 1Th 1:9; Acts 17:16; Acts 21:25; 1Cor 6:9; 1Pe 4:3-4; 1Cor 10:7,14; 1John 5:21; Rev 2:14,20; Rev 9:20; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1; Rev 16:9; Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31; Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5: Honor your father and mother. Rom 1:30; 2Tim 3:2; Mat 19:19; Luke 18:20; Mat 15:4; Mark 10:19; Eph 6:2; Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6: Do not kill. Mark 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; Rom 1:29; Gal 5:21; 1Tim 1:9; 1Pe 4:15; 1John 3:15; Rev 9:21; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7: Do not comit adultery. Mar 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 16:18; Luke 18:20; Heb 13:4; Mat 5:27; Gal 5:19; Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:121; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 13:9; 1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8: Do not steal. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Rom 2:21; 1Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:28; 1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9. Do not lie. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; John 8:44; Acts 5:3; Col 3:9; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10. Do not covet. Eph 5:3,5; Mark 7:22-23; 2Pe 2:14; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; luke 12:15; 1Cor 5:11; 1Tim 6:10; 1Tim 3:2; Rom 1:29; Rom 7:7; Col 3:5-6.

Commandment # 4 is the exception to this rule. There is not direct exhortation or warning in the New Testament telling us we should keep the commandment concerning the Sabbath. God forgot the letter of the law about the 4th commandment.

Shalom

EarlyCall
Mar 28th 2010, 04:55 AM
We never have to lie to save an innocent life, everything is in the hands of God. Shouldn't we trust Him with our own and others lives if we have faith that He is truely all mighty and nothing is impossible to Him.
And in a situation you described, instead of lying we can choose not to say anything i.e reveal the location of other believers in hiding. And if we were to crack under torture and reveal where they are hiding, we wouldn't be held responsible for their deaths. Lord also can give us the strength to endure that torture so that His own stay safe.

Would what I highlighted above also hold true as we stood by and watched someone drown? Yes, I understand it is not quite the same thing, but the point you make is we can sit back and leave it all to God. On the contrary, God never left anything soley to Himself as He has been involving man in evewrything He did once He created man. We too are responsible.

MTK
Mar 28th 2010, 07:44 AM
Answer the question -- were they condemned for lying?

Yes, that's why I posted Rev. 21:8.


We all agree on that. But there are exceptions. One big item is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. God killed the letter to establish the spirit. Read it in 2Cor 3. Jesus fulfilled the spirit of the law by working on Saturdays which goes against the letter of the law (John 5:16-18). The law says Remember the Sabbath day, and God forgot to quote it in the NT.

TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER…

Commandment # 1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30; 1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19. Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; 2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2: Stay away from idols. Acts 15:20,29; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 5:11; 1Th 1:9; Acts 17:16; Acts 21:25; 1Cor 6:9; 1Pe 4:3-4; 1Cor 10:7,14; 1John 5:21; Rev 2:14,20; Rev 9:20; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1; Rev 16:9; Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31; Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5: Honor your father and mother. Rom 1:30; 2Tim 3:2; Mat 19:19; Luke 18:20; Mat 15:4; Mark 10:19; Eph 6:2; Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6: Do not kill. Mark 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; Rom 1:29; Gal 5:21; 1Tim 1:9; 1Pe 4:15; 1John 3:15; Rev 9:21; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7: Do not comit adultery. Mar 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 16:18; Luke 18:20; Heb 13:4; Mat 5:27; Gal 5:19; Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:121; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 13:9; 1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8: Do not steal. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Rom 2:21; 1Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:28; 1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9. Do not lie. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; John 8:44; Acts 5:3; Col 3:9; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10. Do not covet. Eph 5:3,5; Mark 7:22-23; 2Pe 2:14; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; luke 12:15; 1Cor 5:11; 1Tim 6:10; 1Tim 3:2; Rom 1:29; Rom 7:7; Col 3:5-6.

Commandment # 4 is the exception to this rule. There is not direct exhortation or warning in the New Testament telling us we should keep the commandment concerning the Sabbath. God forgot the letter of the law about the 4th commandment.

Shalom

Servant89, sin is a deadly enemy. So deadly that God gave His only Son so that we could be free of it. How then could there be any excuse or exception for any sin if it's so serious matter that God's only Son had to die for us to be free of it? What you have said doesn't give any exception to sin in my heart. If I lied, I know Holy Spirit would convict me of that sin, no matter the circumstances.


Would what I highlighted above also hold true as we stood by and watched someone drown? Yes, I understand it is not quite the same thing, but the point you make is we can sit back and leave it all to God. On the contrary, God never left anything soley to Himself as He has been involving man in evewrything He did once He created man. We too are responsible.

To save someone from drowning involves no sin. To save someone's life by lying is not an act of trusting God, but trusting one's own strength.

Brothers, I don't want to argue with you anymore. I don't mean to be rude, but I honestly feel I have said everything I have to say about this matter and I don't want to continue this discussion any longer.
To conlude, I just want to say that because I seek to be like Jesus Christ, I feel in my heart that I cannot lie no matter what the circumstances are because I know there is no lie in Jesus Christ.


"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1John 2:6

God bless you all :) .

Firstfruits
Mar 28th 2010, 09:31 AM
Hebrews 10 has really been on my mind on this issue. The verses you mention here add to the way my meditations have been leaning....that we should be willing to be beaten, tortured, or killed for a greater good...that there are better, more Christ-like options to lying....it's easy to allow the world's sense of ethics (situational ethics) color our reasoning in way that is not God's way. God does not teach situational ethics. Are there passages in the Bible telling of people who were "rewarded" for breaking God's moral law? Yes. But, that does not mean that God condones their behavior.

Agreed,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

MTK
Mar 28th 2010, 09:54 AM
Hebrews 10 has really been on my mind on this issue. The verses you mention here add to the way my meditations have been leaning....that we should be willing to be beaten, tortured, or killed for a greater good...that there are better, more Christ-like options to lying....it's easy to allow the world's sense of ethics (situational ethics) color our reasoning in way that is not God's way. God does not teach situational ethics. Are there passages in the Bible telling of people who were "rewarded" for breaking God's moral law? Yes. But, that does not mean that God condones their behavior.

I agree completely.

EarlyCall
Mar 28th 2010, 12:39 PM
Yes, that's why I posted Rev. 21:8.



Servant89, sin is a deadly enemy. So deadly that God gave His only Son so that we could be free of it. How then could there be any excuse or exception for any sin if it's so serious matter that God's only Son had to die for us to be free of it? What you have said doesn't give any exception to sin in my heart. If I lied, I know Holy Spirit would convict me of that sin, no matter the circumstances.



To save someone from drowning involves no sin. To save someone's life by lying is not an act of trusting God, but trusting one's own strength.

Brothers, I don't want to argue with you anymore. I don't mean to be rude, but I honestly feel I have said everything I have to say about this matter and I don't want to continue this discussion any longer.
To conlude, I just want to say that because I seek to be like Jesus Christ, I feel in my heart that I cannot lie no matter what the circumstances are because I know there is no lie in Jesus Christ.


"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1John 2:6

God bless you all :) .

It is one thing to express an opinion, to share our own thinking and another to argue endlessly. The former is acceptable and the latter comes from pride. You are right, it is good to not argue.

As well, the desire you express is a good thing too and you are right to do as is in your heart concerning this matter.

God bless. :)

Servant89
Mar 28th 2010, 11:07 PM
Yes, that's why I posted Rev. 21:8. Servant89, sin is a deadly enemy. So deadly that God gave His only Son so that we could be free of it. How then could there be any excuse or exception for any sin if it's so serious matter that God's only Son had to die for us to be free of it? What you have said doesn't give any exception to sin in my heart. If I lied, I know Holy Spirit would convict me of that sin, no matter the circumstances.

To save someone from drowning involves no sin. To save someone's life by lying is not an act of trusting God, but trusting one's own strength.

Brothers, I don't want to argue with you anymore. I don't mean to be rude, but I honestly feel I have said everything I have to say about this matter and I don't want to continue this discussion any longer.
To conlude, I just want to say that because I seek to be like Jesus Christ, I feel in my heart that I cannot lie no matter what the circumstances are because I know there is no lie in Jesus Christ.


"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1John 2:6

God bless you all :) .

God bless you too. God bless you too.

Shalom

Servant89
Mar 29th 2010, 08:39 AM
Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty (THAT'S A LIE).
7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore (80, ANOTHER LIE).
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

SHALOM

Frecs
Mar 29th 2010, 11:45 AM
Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty (THAT'S A LIE).
7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore (80, ANOTHER LIE).
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

SHALOM

God does not lie nor does He approve of lying. This parable is difficult one and at first glance does imply that God praises lying. Not so. The following is taken from http://www.carm.org/unjust-steward-luke-16-1-8 which goes into detail to explain the parable and why this parable is NOT approving of lying:

Obviously, the steward knew the master was a generous person, otherwise he would not have taken such a risk; after all, he wasn't jailed to begin with.

In verse 9 Jesus is not praising the dishonesty, but the ability of the steward to recognize the generosity of his master, see what was coming, and use what he had at the time to obtain something far greater: self preservation.

This is significant. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. God can condemn you to eternal damnation. It is wise to seek a way out of that. In fact, the judgment of damnation is so terrible, that praise is offered to the one who, in desperation, seeks a way out of it.

If the unrighteous steward was praised for trusting the master, how much more will you be rewarded if you trust the true and holy Master, the Lord Himself.

Jesus uses the rabbinic principle of showing "how much more." That is, if the widow got what she wanted from the judge (18:1-9), how much more you and God? If the man got bread in the night from his neighbor (11:5-7), how much more you from God?

What, then, does the parable typify?

1.God (the master) is a God of judgment and mercy.
2.Because of his evil, man (the steward) is caught in the crisis of the coming of the kingdom.
3.Excuses will avail the steward nothing.
4.Man's only option is to entrust everything to the unfailing mercy of his generous master who, he can be confident, will accept to pay the price for man's salvation.
The steward was vindicated because he completely trusted the master to be generous, to be good. He was right in doing so!!!

Servant89
Mar 29th 2010, 12:45 PM
God does not lie nor does He approve of lying. This parable is difficult one and at first glance does imply that God praises lying. Not so.

I saw your post. I see why you believe that. I am amazed you do not see that he lied.

This is how I see it. The master became aware the steward had lied, putting part of the burden of the debt on himself instead of the debtor. In doing so, the steward fulfilled the spirit of the law by reducing the dept of others (showing mercy) at the expense of looking worse in terms of the letter of the law before his master (because what was missing fell on him). And the master loved it. Writing down what is not true is a lie ... period. This is where the rubber meets the road. This is the issue about Rom 7:4. That is why God made it an example of people with faith that were not under the law, did not care for their resume in the law, and chose to do what is right (the spirit of the law) by breaking the letter of the law. The Gibeonites were on God's list for destruction and by breaking the 9th comandment (Joshua 9:3-9) they got saved in Jos 9:21 (see also Deu 29:10-13). Breaking the 9th commadment was an act of faith on their part and that is how they got saved (faith must be active). The same thing happened to the midwives in Exo 1:16-20, for them, breaking commandment 9 was an act of faith. That act showed they were not under the law, that they did not care for their resume in the law, that they care more for saving lives. The same thing happened to Rahab, not telling the truth was an act of faith to save the lives of her family. She got saved too. The lesson is not about approving lies. The lesson is about getting the point that it is useless to try to impress God with how holy we are or how well we keep the law (our righteousness is a mentrous cloth). The point is that we need to show him that we do business by loving others, that we care more for the spirit of the law than the letter of the law. The letter of the law states clearly, work 6 days and do not work on the 7th day. Jesus had to decide, shall he go for the letter of the law or the spirit of the law? You tell me what he went for... it is written:

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Did anyone notice that the nonreligios people get this point a whole lot easier than religious people? Read Luke 16:8 !!!! for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

We need to be dead to the law to marry Christ and bear fruit (Rom 7:4). Jesus worked hard to remove the law, why bring it back? This is what the Scriptures say about the law...

a. They bring God's wrath upon us (Rom 4:15)
b. They are our enemy (Eph 2:15)
c. They make sin strong in our life (Rom 7:8-11)
d. Cause us to sin (Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13,20; Rom 7:8; 1Jo 3:4)
e. Rule over us (Gal 3:24-25; Rom 7:1; Gal 4:9-11)
f. Bring death to us (Rom 7:10; 2Cor 3:6-7)
g. Curse us (Gal 3:10)
h. They are not of faith (Gal 3:12)
i. They are against us (Col 2:14)
j. They condemn us (2Co 3:9)
k. Can not justify us (Rom 3:20,28)
l. Doing the commandments do not and can not bring miracles (Gal 3:1-6; Mat 11:13; John 10:41)
m. And even the times we fulfill the law, that is unacceptable before God (Isa 64:6)
n. They were abolished (2Cor 3, removed, out of the way) Col 2:12-16,

Shalom

Steven3
Mar 30th 2010, 06:38 AM
I agree with all of the above, but no, it is not clear, especially when you have two principles in conflict: the command not to lie, and the command not to murder. That's the reality of a fallen world, and part of this reality is that there may be cases where we may need to lie, especially to save an innocent life. And if God damns me for lying to a genocidal government, so be it.

The thing is our cosy western world situations are very rarely as extreme as Rahab's situation --- even if God had told her to lie, which he didn't. The typical run of the mill application for a Christian who has convinced himself/herself that truth is relative is the sort of lieing to spouses, church elders, employers that very quickly become a part of Christian habit. I'm sure there are cases in history -- or muslim countries etc.-- where Rahab's situation is relevant, I equally doubt that there's a single Christian on this board who needs to know that or has every actually themselves been in such a situation.

Servant89
Mar 30th 2010, 11:51 PM
The thing is our cosy western world situations are very rarely as extreme as Rahab's situation --- even if God had told her to lie, which he didn't. .

This is not about what God said. If God had said "lie" and I do it, then I am obeying him. That is not the issue here. But since you claim that God will not command anyone to break the letter of the law ... read...

Jer 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;
Jer 17:22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
Jer 17:24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


The typical run of the mill application for a Christian who has convinced himself/herself that truth is relative is the sort of lieing to spouses, church elders, employers that very quickly become a part of Christian habit. I'm sure there are cases in history -- or muslim countries etc.-- where Rahab's situation is relevant, I equally doubt that there's a single Christian on this board who needs to know that or has every actually themselves been in such a situation.

There are several reasons why God has established that the spirit of the law is above the letter of the law, and often times they are against each other (read 2Cr 3). Here are some:

To show those that are not under the law and those that are under grace.
To have faith validated with actions that are clearly not the works of the law, for by the works of the law, no flesh shall be justified
To see who does business by love instead of by command
To see who cares more for others than their own resume in the law
To show who knows him well and appreciate what Christ did on the cross

Shalom

subarctic_guy
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:01 AM
If we are truly led by the Holy Spirit, He will tell us what to say or do in a situation like Corrie's.

Why do you say that?

Frecs
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:59 AM
The thing is our cosy western world situations are very rarely as extreme as Rahab's situation --- even if God had told her to lie, which he didn't. The typical run of the mill application for a Christian who has convinced himself/herself that truth is relative is the sort of lieing to spouses, church elders, employers that very quickly become a part of Christian habit. I'm sure there are cases in history -- or muslim countries etc.-- where Rahab's situation is relevant, I equally doubt that there's a single Christian on this board who needs to know that or has every actually themselves been in such a situation.

You are right Steven, for us it is purely academic. We haven't been faced with the kind of persecution that Christians in China or the 10/40 window are faced with. We don't know what it's like to face such challenges to walking a Christlike holy life is like. It's easy to argue about what one should or could or would do but we don't really know until we are faced with the choice. Then, hopefully, we will be tuned in to the Spirit and receive His advice on how to respond.

Servant89
Apr 2nd 2010, 11:59 PM
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Esau did not lie. Jacob was the one that lied. Hmmmm. Jacob disobeyed the angel of God and got blessed there too (Gen 32:24-28). Hmmmm

Shalom

Frecs
Apr 3rd 2010, 12:48 AM
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Esau did not lie. Jacob was the one that lied. Hmmmm. Jacob disobeyed the angel of God and got blessed there too (Gen 32:24-28). Hmmmm

Shalom


Esau dispised his birthright. It was evidence of his heart condition overall. Jacob was a lying, conniving man but apparently despite that, he had a good heart. God knew He could work with Jacob but that Esau was untamable.

God also seems to like to take the least likely character and use them in a great way -- gives Him the glory rather than the person. :-)

Servant89
Apr 3rd 2010, 01:46 AM
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But the Bible also says:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So, we need works that justify our faith. But the works that justify our faith can not be the works of the law. How would God show us what he means? Here is how.

By faith Abraham showed God he was willing to break any commandment in order to fulfill the spirit of the law, lying, stealing, hey, even killing his only son. The letter of the law says, do not kill, Abraham's faith was validated in Gen 22 when he offered his own son. Truly it was not by the works of the law that he became the famous father of the faith.

By faith, Jacob lied to his father in order to obtain the spiritual blessing. By faith he fought God in Gen 32 and Hos 12:4-5. He disobeyed God to get the blessing. He valued spiritual things more than his life or his health OR HIS RESUME IN THE LAW. And that is how he validaded his faith.

By faith Rahab lied to her people and saved her family.

By faith the Gibeonites lied to Joshua and became part of the nation of Israel (when they were in God's list for destruction)

By faith the midwives in Egypt lied to Pharaoh to save the lives of the male children in Israel.

By faith these people showed God they were not under the law, what drove their behavior was not the commandments, it was love.

By faith the samaritan leper turned back from the commandment and offered a better sacrifice than the 9 lepers that faithfully obeyed Jesus commandment.

Jesus showed us by working on Sabbath days of rest, that he valued the spirit of the law (loving people) more than impressing people with how well he kept the law.

People go to hell because they break God's law. People go to heaven because of the grace of God. The people that go to heaven, know they need a savior, we can not count on how well we keep the law to be saved. The people that go to heaven know we do not meet God's standard.

To go to heaven we need to be holy and perfect. There are 3 ways of becoming holy and perfect. The first two were provided by Jesus on Calvary.

1. Have the blood of Jesus take away our sin.

1 Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

2. Have the law removed, out of the way, so that it does not apply to us (Read 2Cor 3).

ROM 4:15 … for where no law is, there is no transgression.

ROM 5:13 … but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Heb 10:14 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

3. Or, we can be holy on our own merit, also called "self-righteousness". In this case, we do not need a savior. This is the case of those that are under the law. They that boasts in the law, like this one.

We can make it to heaven two different ways, 1) through the cross (cases 1 & 2), by grace, or (2) through the law. It can not be both.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We need to pick one and walk like the people of faith in the Bible, by grace through faith, not under the law.

Shalom

Steven3
Apr 3rd 2010, 05:12 AM
Hi Servant89 :)
This is not about what God said. If God had said "lie" and I do it, then I am obeying him. That is not the issue here. But since you claim that God will not command anyone to break the letter of the law ... read...Sorry but that wasn't my point. It's nothing to do with the Law of Moses. It's a basic human trait, that humans (including Christians) want to lie. And Jesus didn't tell the healed man "take up your bed" on the Sabbath to enable a 21stC Christian to be dishonest. To argue that Christ died on the cross to give Christians flexible honesty is not in line with NT (forget OT) teaching on truth and lies.

Esau did not lie. Jacob was the one that lied. Hmmmm. Jacob disobeyed the angel of God and got blessed there too (Gen 32:24-28). HmmmmFrankly, so what? There's all sorts of bad behaviour in the OT. Please show me where Jesus lied. Or show me where Jesus tells his followers to lie. We're not followers of Jacob after all... :)
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Apr 3rd 2010, 05:20 AM
Hi Frecs :)
You are right Steven, for us it is purely academic. We haven't been faced with the kind of persecution that Christians in China or the 10/40 window are faced with. We don't know what it's like to face such challenges to walking a Christlike holy life is like. It's easy to argue about what one should or could or would do but we don't really know until we are faced with the choice. Then, hopefully, we will be tuned in to the Spirit and receive His advice on how to respond.Thanks yes. FWIW having lived in Asia I do know a case where I've advised if necessary for a Hindu convert to Christianity to pray to God to find a way to avoid lieing, but if necessary lie to protect his family, recognise it as a sin, lesser evil, and pray to God for forgiveness. But by the same token I've never seen a single case in the west where all the reasons Christians give themselves for lieing, dishonesty, lack of openness, deception, fraud, dissembling, all of which goes on in the name of the "Holy Spirit" (??) bears any comparison to anything Christ would recognise as "in spirit and in truth". The "I'll lie and be proud" attitude of some Western "Holy Spirit" led Christians is a million miles from anything that conscience stricken ex-Hindu brother would recognise. In a modern western democracy if a Christian is "forced to lie" chances are it's because of some unwise decision he/she took earlier down the road that painted them into a corner where lieing became the way out. Like David, Jacob, etc. Or even Rahab: if she hadn't been working as a prostitute she wouldn't have had two Jewish spies in her house in the first place. Many, if not most or all, Christian "white lies" (sic) often start out with foolish/prayerless decisions made months or years earlier....
God bless
S.

Servant89
Apr 3rd 2010, 07:16 AM
Hi Servant89 :)Sorry but that wasn't my point. It's nothing to do with the Law of Moses. It's a basic human trait, that humans (including Christians) want to lie. And Jesus didn't tell the healed man "take up your bed" on the Sabbath to enable a 21stC Christian to be dishonest. To argue that Christ died on the cross to give Christians flexible honesty is not in line with NT (forget OT) teaching on truth and lies.
Frankly, so what? There's all sorts of bad behaviour in the OT. Please show me where Jesus lied. Or show me where Jesus tells his followers to lie. We're not followers of Jacob after all... :)
God bless
Steven

Jesus never lied. God does not want us to be dishonest. If we love him, we will show that love by keeping his commandments. We all agree on that.

But there are times when in order to fulfull the spirit of the law, we are called to break the letter of the law. Those examples in the Bible show that. And the reason why they broke the letter of the law is not to give us a license to break the law, it is to show us that they did it to fulfill the spirit of the law, and in those occassions, it is ok to break the letter of the law (to show the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law as 2Cor 3 demonstrates). Apparently the list of examples I provided was not enough. Let me add some others.

By faith, the Rechabites rejected the word of the Lord given to them by Jeremiah, and the Lord stood up and clapped and said: Bravo, that is exactly what I wanted you to do. Jer 35:19.

By faith Ruth, out of love for her mother in law, decided to engage in premarital sex, and she was blessed and protected by God. Ruth 3:3-5

By faith, the paralyzed man in John 5 decided to carry something heavy on Sabbath day to show people what great things the Lord had done for him.

By faith, the wise steward in Luke 16:1-8 told the debtors to lie about what they owed (reducing their debt) and he was praised by God stating that the children of this world (the ones that do not care for laws) are in their generation wiser than the children of light (God’s elect have problems in this area).

By faith, David ate the bread that belongs to the priests only and was not guilty of doing that because he was fulfilling the spirit of the law (Mat 12:1-6).

By faith, the priests profane the Sabbath and are blameless when they do it to fulfill the spirit of the law (Mat 12:1-6)

By faith, Isaiah went nudist and preached naked for 3 years (Isa 20:2-4).

By faith, two women in the Bible had extramarital sex (to fulfill the spirit of the law) and were included in Jesus’ genealogy as a testimony of their faith (Mat 1:3,5; Gen 38:26).

By faith, a group of people broke the roof of their neighbor’s house (in order to fulfill the spirit of the law) and Jesus commended them for their faith (demonstrated by an act of destroying property that did not belong to them). Mark 2:4-5

By faith, Mary decided to be pregnant by the Holy Ghost while unmarried (caring nothing for her image in terms of the works of the law).

By faith, these people below blatantly rejected the commandment of Jesus (out of love for him). Read it.

Mat 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straightly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.
31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.

Mark 1:40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.
42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;
44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into the city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.

Mk 7:36 And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it;

And if we think God was disappointed at them for disobeying his son in that area, we don’t get it. We still don't get it.

Shalom

subarctic_guy
Apr 3rd 2010, 11:42 AM
moral dilemma = all outcomes require immoral action. ex: bad guys come to your door. they suspect you are hiding someone. lying will convince them to leave, saving the innocent life. any other action -or lack of action- arouses their suspicion and the innocent person is exposed and killed. so no matter what, an immoral act will be committed, either lying in the one case, or surrender of an innocent to be killed in all other cases. it is not a case of right vs wrong. both are wrong. it then becomes a issue of consequences - harm vs benefit. in the first case, you lie: this compromises the standard of honesty and preserves an innocent life. in all other courses of action result in the innocent life being destroyed, but your honesty stays intact. so which is more valuable -your honesty or an innocent human? another consideration is that one can repent and their standard of honesty can be restored, but the innocent life would be gone for good.