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Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 01:16 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, What must we do to be saved?

Acts 2:37-39
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Acts 16:29-31
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 10:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

"What must I do to be saved"

Firstfruits

-SEEKING-
Mar 24th 2010, 01:20 PM
"What must I do to be saved"

Firstfruits

Recognize that there is in fact nothing I can do to be saved, and put my complete trust in the work of Jesus Christ. He did it. I can't.

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 01:41 PM
Recognize that there is in fact nothing I can do to be saved, and put my complete trust in the work of Jesus Christ. He did it. I can't.

So that is by faith believing, as per the scriptures given?

Firstfruits

crawfish
Mar 24th 2010, 02:58 PM
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

:)

-SEEKING-
Mar 24th 2010, 03:30 PM
So that is by faith believing, as per the scriptures given?

Firstfruits

The thing is that I can't put God in a box and say because of these scriptures, here's the formula. And I'm not saying that you are saying that either. I like to make statements based on the totality of scriptures. You know what I mean?

watchinginawe
Mar 24th 2010, 03:43 PM
Recognize that there is in fact nothing I can do to be saved, and put my complete trust in the work of Jesus Christ. He did it. I can't.:hmm: Are there things that you can do presently which might prevent you from being saved? If so, then there are things which you can do presently which might result in your being saved. I think the core of what you offer is that without Jesus Christ there is no salvation. God went first with His unilateral gift of grace in Jesus Christ. That gift of grace now being present in this age makes the question of the original post valid IMO. Of course there are theological viewpoints which would answer my original question: Are there things that you dan do presently which might prevent you from being saved? as "No". But that is a different matter and well defined in these forums.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 04:00 PM
The thing is that I can't put God in a box and say because of these scriptures, here's the formula. And I'm not saying that you are saying that either. I like to make statements based on the totality of scriptures. You know what I mean?

How then can we be sure that we are saved if not according to that which we have been given?

Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

If we doubt Gods word, then who can we trust?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 04:03 PM
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

:)

They are not able to repent and be saved as we are.

Mk 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 04:06 PM
:hmm: Are there things that you can do presently which might prevent you from being saved? If so, then there are things which you can do presently which might result in your being saved. I think the core of what you offer is that without Jesus Christ there is no salvation. God went first with His unilateral gift of grace in Jesus Christ. That gift of grace now being present in this age makes the question of the original post valid IMO. Of course there are theological viewpoints which would answer my original question: Are there things that you dan do presently which might prevent you from being saved? as "No". But that is a different matter and well defined in these forums.

God Bless!

So would that mean that just as we must come to Jesus to be saved, if we depart form the Lord we will be lost as in the following scripture?

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 24th 2010, 04:12 PM
How then can we be sure that we are saved if not according to that which we have been given?

Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

If we doubt Gods word, then who can we trust?

Firstfruits

FF, You leave out the Witness of the HOly Ghost.. who bears witness with the spirit of God's Children that they are His.. Saved....

God never intended His Children to walk around in fog from day to day.. 'wondering' if they are still saved.. from day to day... thats not Him FF..

you know who does that? always posing a question.. and saying.. 'you can never really know'..

that comes from 'Diabolos'.... its his nature to 'question'.. and to cause doubt and fear..

But God is greater than that.. and the Witness of the Holy Ghost in a converts Heart and spirit is Greater than those 'lies'...

as John says..

ye have overcome them little children.. because Greater is He that is in you.. than he that is in the world...

I've watched your posts FF.. and your posts tend to lean towards a 'works salvation'.. to the extent.. that Salvation is based on man.. and that its by his power that he/she will overcome..

I've watched your posts for over a year now.... and it always boils down to 'man' doing the work.. or the power is dervied from 'man'.... that we must work our way to the end.. and then maybe God will find favor with us.. because of what 'we did'....

I find that very disheartening... and really it doesnt suprise me at all.... because of the times we live in.. and the number of 'weeds' that are being planted and sown...

HisLeast
Mar 24th 2010, 04:14 PM
A certain rich ruler once asked Jesus a similar question:

Luke 18: 18 - 22
18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"
21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Now I'm not sure if that was a literal task or a hyperbole... but it tells me a couple things.
1) Salvation is active. There is most definitely something that you must do.
2) Salvation is difficult. Especially if our heart has any similarity to the rich man's.
3) Non-actions are actions. In the context of salvation, "not sinning" is an act.

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 04:17 PM
FF, You leave out the Witness of the HOly Ghost.. who bears witness with the spirit of God's Children that they are His.. Saved....

God never intended His Children to walk around in fog from day to day.. 'wondering' if they are still saved.. from day to day... thats not Him FF..

you know who does that? always posing a question.. and saying.. 'you can never really know'..

that comes from 'Diabolos'.... its his nature to 'question'.. and to cause doubt and fear..

But God is greater than that.. and the Witness of the Holy Ghost in a converts Heart and spirit is Greater than those 'lies'...

as John says..

ye have overcome them little children.. because Greater is He that is in you.. than he that is in the world...

I've watched your posts FF.. and your posts tend to lean towards a 'works salvation'.. to the extent.. that Salvation is based on man.. and that its by his power that he/she will overcome..

I've watched your posts for over a year now.... and it always boils down to 'man' doing the work.. or the power is dervied from 'man'.... that we must work our way to the end.. and then maybe God will find favor with us.. because of what 'we did'....

I find that very disheartening... and really it doesnt suprise me at all.... because of the times we live in.. and the number of 'weeds' that are being planted and sown...

How would you explain the following if it is not speaking about what we do?

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.



Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 04:20 PM
A certain rich ruler once asked Jesus a similar question:

Luke 18: 18 - 22
18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"
21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Now I'm not sure if that was a literal task or a hyperbole... but it tells me a couple things.
1) Salvation is active. There is most definitely something that you must do.
2) Salvation is difficult. Especially if our heart has any similarity to the rich man's.
3) Non-actions are actions. In the context of salvation, "not sinning" is an act.

Thanks Hisleast,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

notuptome
Mar 24th 2010, 04:43 PM
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy heart that God has raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The word confess is homo logeo, homos means the same and logeo means to speak. When we confess Jesus we are declaring that we believe all that scripture says about Him.

vs 13 We call upon the name of the Lord because we believe He is able to save us from our sin. We believe this because we have received Gods faith by hearing Gods word. vs 17

We know we have received Christ because His Spirit witnesseth with our spirit that we are His.1 John 5:10

Jude 1 calls us preserved in Christ.

What must I do? Receive that which God has provided in His Son. Trust that God is able to do that which He purposes to do according to His word once and for all delivered to the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 04:52 PM
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy heart that God has raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The word confess is homo logeo, homos means the same and logeo means to speak. When we confess Jesus we are declaring that we believe all that scripture says about Him.

vs 13 We call upon the name of the Lord because we believe He is able to save us from our sin. We believe this because we have received Gods faith by hearing Gods word. vs 17

We know we have received Christ because His Spirit witnesseth with our spirit that we are His.1 John 5:10

Jude 1 calls us preserved in Christ.

What must I do? Receive that which God has provided in His Son. Trust that God is able to do that which He purposes to do according to His word once and for all delivered to the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Thank you Roger,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

crawfish
Mar 24th 2010, 04:58 PM
They are not able to repent and be saved as we are.

Mk 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I just like to make sure all the proper considerations are made.

The passage in James is not about demons. It is about the emptyness of faith without actions to back it up. Can you say you truly have faith if you don't live as if you do? Do you really believe in God if you live in opposition to His will, no matter what you say?

Faith is the basis of the acceptance of God's free gift of salvation, but means nothing if your life doesn't show it. Likewise, actions without faith cannot save you. The biggest problem I personally have with the "faith only" doctrine is this idea that you are fine with nothing but faith. God loves you and welcomes you, but He expects so much more of you than what you are.

notuptome
Mar 24th 2010, 05:14 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I just like to make sure all the proper considerations are made.

The passage in James is not about demons. It is about the emptyness of faith without actions to back it up. Can you say you truly have faith if you don't live as if you do? Do you really believe in God if you live in opposition to His will, no matter what you say?

Faith is the basis of salvation, but means nothing if your life doesn't show it. Likewise, actions without faith cannot save you. The biggest problem I personally have with the "faith only" doctrine is this idea that you are fine with nothing but faith. God loves you and welcomes you, but He expects so much more of you than what you are.
Grace is the basis of salvation. Christ has provided the faith by which we receive grace. Hearing the word of God is the means God has prescribed for the creation of genuine biblical faith in the heart of the hearer. Faith of this nature is efficacious for salvation and for service.

Works do not produce faith. Faith produces works. God makes no demands except that we receive by believing. Christ conditioned His sacrifice on nothing but His love for me. Herein is love not that we loved Him but that He loved us and gave Himself for us. 1 John 4:10

For the cause of Christ
Roger

-SEEKING-
Mar 24th 2010, 05:34 PM
If we doubt Gods word, then who can we trust?

Firstfruits

Oh believe me. I don't doubt God's word at all. I was more making mention of the fact that I personally can't let a few scriptures, especially if not viewed in light of the whole bible, make some sort of formula as to whether I'm saved or not. Do you know what I'm trying to say? I know it's hard for me to express myself thoroughly sometimes via simples posts.

notuptome
Mar 24th 2010, 05:59 PM
Oh believe me. I don't doubt God's word at all. I was more making mention of the fact that I personally can't let a few scriptures, especially if not viewed in light of the whole bible, make some sort of formula as to whether I'm saved or not. Do you know what I'm trying to say? I know it's hard for me to express myself thoroughly sometimes via simples posts.
What if you only had a few precious moments to tell someone how to be saved? Let's say they were in immediate danger of death and asked you to tell them how they could be saved and have eternal life. Clearly there is no time for long drawn out doctrinal contemplations only a cry of desparation from a soul about to pass into eternity. They are gripping you arm with a death grip. They can feel the flames licking at their feet and you can smell the acrid odor of sulphur and brimstone filling the room. What do you say? Simple yet clear and complete? Church affiliation is of no merit. There are no works that can be done. No time for baptism. What can we do? What shall we do?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 06:30 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I just like to make sure all the proper considerations are made.

The passage in James is not about demons. It is about the emptyness of faith without actions to back it up. Can you say you truly have faith if you don't live as if you do? Do you really believe in God if you live in opposition to His will, no matter what you say?

Faith is the basis of salvation, but means nothing if your life doesn't show it. Likewise, actions without faith cannot save you. The biggest problem I personally have with the "faith only" doctrine is this idea that you are fine with nothing but faith. God loves you and welcomes you, but He expects so much more of you than what you are.

I agree, though we are saved by faith, we are required to live according to the will of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 06:33 PM
Oh believe me. I don't doubt God's word at all. I was more making mention of the fact that I personally can't let a few scriptures, especially if not viewed in light of the whole bible, make some sort of formula as to whether I'm saved or not. Do you know what I'm trying to say? I know it's hard for me to express myself thoroughly sometimes via simples posts.

Would the simplicity of what is written in the gospel not suffice?

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Firstfruits

-SEEKING-
Mar 24th 2010, 09:25 PM
What if you only had a few precious moments to tell someone how to be saved? Let's say they were in immediate danger of death and asked you to tell them how they could be saved and have eternal life. Clearly there is no time for long drawn out doctrinal contemplations only a cry of desparation from a soul about to pass into eternity. They are gripping you arm with a death grip. They can feel the flames licking at their feet and you can smell the acrid odor of sulphur and brimstone filling the room. What do you say? Simple yet clear and complete? Church affiliation is of no merit. There are no works that can be done. No time for baptism. What can we do? What shall we do?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well I'd make sure that they'd know that they are sinners. And that although there is nothing they can do to earn their way into heaven, Jesus did it for them. And ask them to ask Jesus to forgive them of their sins and acknowledge that He is the only way into heaven. Mind you I"ve never been put on the spot before so I don't know in actualilty what I'd say.

What have you done in these instances?

-SEEKING-
Mar 24th 2010, 09:27 PM
Would the simplicity of what is written in the gospel not suffice?

Firstfruits

Of course. I don't think I'm making myself clear here. There is something not coming across. :dunno:

crawfish
Mar 24th 2010, 09:51 PM
Grace is the basis of salvation. Christ has provided the faith by which we receive grace. Hearing the word of God is the means God has prescribed for the creation of genuine biblical faith in the heart of the hearer. Faith of this nature is efficacious for salvation and for service.

Works do not produce faith. Faith produces works. God makes no demands except that we receive by believing. Christ conditioned His sacrifice on nothing but His love for me. Herein is love not that we loved Him but that He loved us and gave Himself for us. 1 John 4:10

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are right. I've changed the text in my post to reflect that.

losthorizon
Mar 24th 2010, 10:24 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, What must we do to be saved?

Acts 2:37-39
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Acts 16:29-31
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 10:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


The answer is in the text you have provided – Peter preached the gospel of Christ on the Day of Pentecost. Those Jews who believed on the name of Christ asked the most important question we can ask – “Men and brethren, what shall we do [to be saved]?” Peter didn’t say as some today say, “you have believed, therefore there is nothing left for you to do.” No, Peter presented the full council of God and God’s full council included the further instruction to “repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…”


"What must I do to be saved"

At conversion – we must believe; we must repent; we must be baptized and then ours sins are remitted and we receive the "gift of the Holy Spirit.” After conversion we must “walk in the light, as he is in the light” and if we do this “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost… they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls… And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:37-47

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1Jn 1:7

watchinginawe
Mar 25th 2010, 03:49 AM
A certain rich ruler once asked Jesus a similar question:

Luke 18: 18 - 22
18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.If the one asking had discerned this question of Jesus in verse 19 he would have been well on his way to eternal life. It is kind of interesting because the ruler was seeking an esoteric kind of response from Jesus with "instructions inside". It might also be worth noting that the ruler did not currently have eternal life and was thus seeking for such and thought maybe Jesus, as a "good teacher", could answer the question that he so long (since a boy) had desired but had not found. Wow, talk about close encounters of the third kind. The ruler was talking to the exact one who could satisfy his search and misses his opportunity for Jesus' "good" to shine light on his sin.

In Matthew, the question is put to Jesus as "what good thing shall I do", or what honorable thing shall I do.


20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"
21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.Why oh why did not the ruler go away rejoicing when he received this answer? You can just see the look on the ruler's face as he learns that the secret ingredient to "secret ingredient soup" is nothing. The ruler finds nothing honorable in keeping the commandments and he also knew that he hadn't obtained eternal life by keeping them since a boy. Strike two.


22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Now I'm not sure if that was a literal task or a hyperbole... but it tells me a couple things.
1) Salvation is active. There is most definitely something that you must do.
2) Salvation is difficult. Especially if our heart has any similarity to the rich man's.
3) Non-actions are actions. In the context of salvation, "not sinning" is an act.Perhaps salvation is simple when we discover that we can't obtain it with our own honor or good deed and lose all pride when we discern how we compare to the "good teacher". But I like the word difficult too since what Jesus did on our behalf was very difficult, even impossible for any other man.

:hmm: #3 is interesting. I'm going to have to let that one bake for a while.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 08:58 AM
Of course. I don't think I'm making myself clear here. There is something not coming across. :dunno:

Can you try and explain what you mean?

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 09:04 AM
The answer is in the text you have provided – Peter preached the gospel of Christ on the Day of Pentecost. Those Jews who believed on the name of Christ asked the most important question we can ask – “Men and brethren, what shall we do [to be saved]?” Peter didn’t say as some today say, “you have believed, therefore there is nothing left for you to do.” No, Peter presented the full council of God and God’s full council included the further instruction to “repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…”


At conversion – we must believe; we must repent; we must be baptized and then ours sins are remitted and we receive the "gift of the Holy Spirit.” After conversion we must “walk in the light, as he is in the light” and if we do this “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost… they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls… And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:37-47

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1Jn 1:7

Thanks losthorizon,

It seems clear then, that if we apply the gospel we have been given we should not go wrong, since it is though the gospel that we have the knowledge of salvation.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

kay-gee
Mar 25th 2010, 10:51 AM
FF my friend. Obey Acts 2:38 and one is in good shape. It doesn't get any simpler. What an amazing plan, God has designed.

all the best...

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 11:37 AM
FF my friend. Obey Acts 2:38 and one is in good shape. It doesn't get any simpler. What an amazing plan, God has designed.

all the best...

Thanks Kay-gee,

Maybe it is the simplicity that we cannot understand.

2 Cor 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Mar 25th 2010, 12:31 PM
Thanks losthorizon,

It seems clear then, that if we apply the gospel we have been given we should not go wrong, since it is though the gospel that we have the knowledge of salvation.

God bless you!

Firstfruits
That would be my understanding – the gospel of Christ contains the words of life...
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 12:58 PM
That would be my understanding – the gospel of Christ contains the words of life...
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

Thanks Losthorizon,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Mar 25th 2010, 01:33 PM
Perhaps salvation is simple when we discover that we can't obtain it with our own honor or good deed and lose all pride when we discern how we compare to the "good teacher". But I like the word difficult too since what Jesus did on our behalf was very difficult, even impossible for any other man.

:hmm: #3 is interesting. I'm going to have to let that one bake for a while

I don't know WIA. Any time I hear how easy coming to Christ is, it makes me suspicious. I think too often "simple" is made a synonym for "easy". I believe simplicity is a not a synonym for easy so much as its an antonym for complex. Difficulty is a separate measure. So when Jesus says simply "Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me" he was saying something simple, yet horrendously difficult. I think its no different for the rest of us than it was for that ruler.

Salvation may be simple, in that all you have to do is make the most difficult decisions of your entire life.

watchinginawe
Mar 25th 2010, 01:57 PM
I don't know WIA. Any time I hear how easy coming to Christ is, it makes me suspicious. I think too often "simple" is made a synonym for "easy". I believe simplicity is a not a synonym for easy so much as its an antonym for complex. Difficulty is a separate measure. So when Jesus says simply "Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me" he was saying something simple, yet horrendously difficult. I think its no different for the rest of us than it was for that ruler.

Salvation may be simple, in that all you have to do is make the most difficult decisions of your entire life.It is very much different for us than for the ruler. The heavy lifting has been done for us and what remains is for us to put our faith in His work instead of faith in our work.

Notwithstanding, I can't disagree that the way is narrow (with difficulty).

God Bless!

anthony57
Mar 25th 2010, 02:00 PM
Its actually nothing a man can do to get saved. Matt 19:

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 25th 2010, 02:43 PM
Its actually nothing a man can do to get saved. Matt 19:

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


God does the Saving.... correct...

and all things are POSSIBLE with Him....

man is lost and dead in sins and transgressions...

he cannot save himself, he cannot come to God on His own... ie .. like just one day.. say to himself.. hey i'm going to follow Jesus... nope..

I noticed in the 'title' of this thread... the words what must I DO to be saved....

I noticed the words I DO to be saved in capital letters...

it would seem the emphasis is on 'man' again... how can I save myself? what must I do to saved myself? if man believes he/she can save themselves or be good enough.. he/she is decieved..

with man it is IMPOSSIBLE>


but with God all things are Possible...


and this is the delimma.. in these last days..

man has brought God down to his level.. and is trying to make God answer to him/her... telling God... your Sons' Sacrafice on that tree was really nice and okay.. but I can still save myself..

by doing it my way.. Its what I can do to save myself.. and these who believe this.. when they stand before Him.. will find out that it was all a lie... and they will demand that God recompense them for all the good works they did to 'save' themselves..

then they will see the Nail Scars in the Hands and Feet of the Risen LORD.. and realize that they were wrong.. and then gnash upon Him with their teeth.. exhibiting their true idenities.. as
Enemies of the Cross.. and the One Who Gave Himself on it..

watchinginawe
Mar 25th 2010, 02:57 PM
Its actually nothing a man can do to get saved. Matt 19:

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.Regarding your scripture reference, wouldn't that be nothing a "rich man" can do to get saved? :)

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 03:00 PM
Its actually nothing a man can do to get saved. Matt 19:

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Do we not need to trust/believe?

2 Cor 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

1 Tim 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

Mt 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

1 Tim 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Can we have faith/trust in that which we do not believe?

Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 Pet 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

If there is nothing to do, then Gods command concering his son is invalid.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 25th 2010, 03:03 PM
first:


Do we not need to trust/believe?

This is what Jesus said man can do to get saved !

Matt 19:

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

anthony57
Mar 25th 2010, 03:05 PM
Regarding your scripture reference, wouldn't that be nothing a "rich man" can do to get saved? :)

God Bless!

Jesus was speaking about men period in my opinion. He said with men [ rich or poor, black or white] this is impossible.

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 03:22 PM
first:



This is what Jesus said man can do to get saved !

Matt 19:

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I suppose that by telling people to believe and be saved does seem impossible, but that is what Jesus has commanded.

Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 03:24 PM
Jesus was speaking about men period in my opinion. He said with men [ rich or poor, black or white] this is impossible.

I know that is your opinion, but what does the word of God say?

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 25th 2010, 05:01 PM
I know that is your opinion, but what does the word of God say?

Firstfruits


Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No man comes to God on his/her own FF... and if they tell you they do they are just not telling the Truth...

I often hear people come along and say... "I" got saved.... well you didn't save Yourself...

or that 'I" found God...

God FINDS you...

He is the One Searching and Looking for you... a person dead in trespasses and sins.. does not have the ability to go find God on their own... Unless the Holy Ghost is drawing them to Jesus Christ..
and as far as man 'choosing' God... what does the Word tell us? FF

Jesus Himself said it,

Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


this is why I have a had time with people who come along and try to 'force' people to 'make a decision for Christ'..... its not about the person Choosing.. but its God that chooses the Person... not man.... man tries to Trump the 'will' and 'foreknowledge of God'... by telling the Person... 'you' can make a decision '... its not up to God... you are going to make it...

man choosing God out of his/her own power, 'man' drumming up the 'faith' to believe unto Salvation, man 'coming' to God on his/her own..., so widely evident today.. and believed unto as 'truth'.. and then they turn around and call the Truth.. a 'lie'...

the heart is the seat of rebellion and idolatry... and Isaiah said.. that when man begins to call Truth a lie or evil.. and Evil or a lie , Truth..... then Woe unto them... thats a stern warning from the Word of God.. that all who Understand and Comprehend the Truth.. will understand.. all those that can 'hear' the Truth... and Hear His Voice.. will understand and hearken unto..

the Merits and Issues of Salvation belong to God, FF........ not man....

Those Merits always have been and always will Be His.....

man will go on in his/her rebellion.. bringing God down to mans level.. but in the End... he/she will find out that it was all a lie...when they Stand Before Him..

Firstfruits
Mar 26th 2010, 09:45 AM
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No man comes to God on his/her own FF... and if they tell you they do they are just not telling the Truth...

I often hear people come along and say... "I" got saved.... well you didn't save Yourself...

or that 'I" found God...

God FINDS you...

He is the One Searching and Looking for you... a person dead in trespasses and sins.. does not have the ability to go find God on their own... Unless the Holy Ghost is drawing them to Jesus Christ..
and as far as man 'choosing' God... what does the Word tell us? FF

Jesus Himself said it,

Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


this is why I have a had time with people who come along and try to 'force' people to 'make a decision for Christ'..... its not about the person Choosing.. but its God that chooses the Person... not man.... man tries to Trump the 'will' and 'foreknowledge of God'... by telling the Person... 'you' can make a decision '... its not up to God... you are going to make it...

man choosing God out of his/her own power, 'man' drumming up the 'faith' to believe unto Salvation, man 'coming' to God on his/her own..., so widely evident today.. and believed unto as 'truth'.. and then they turn around and call the Truth.. a 'lie'...

the heart is the seat of rebellion and idolatry... and Isaiah said.. that when man begins to call Truth a lie or evil.. and Evil or a lie , Truth..... then Woe unto them... thats a stern warning from the Word of God.. that all who Understand and Comprehend the Truth.. will understand.. all those that can 'hear' the Truth... and Hear His Voice.. will understand and hearken unto..

the Merits and Issues of Salvation belong to God, FF........ not man....

Those Merits always have been and always will Be His.....

man will go on in his/her rebellion.. bringing God down to mans level.. but in the End... he/she will find out that it was all a lie...when they Stand Before Him..

How then are we called by God?

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 02:51 PM
I know that is your opinion, but what does the word of God say?

Firstfruits

My opinion is based upon the word.

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 02:53 PM
I suppose that by telling people to believe and be saved does seem impossible, but that is what Jesus has commanded.

Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Firstfruits

Only a saved person can believe.

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 02:55 PM
"What must I do to be saved"



FF, you must first find out whether you've been chosen. Else why bother. Eat, drink and fornicate for tomorrow you die anyway. :D

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 03:01 PM
freek:


FF, you must first find out whether you've been chosen.

Sounds like what peter would say>

2 pet 1:

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 03:02 PM
My opinion is based upon the word.

Yes , but what does the word of God say?

Firstfruits

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 03:18 PM
freek:



Sounds like what peter would say>

2 pet 1:

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

So get practical about it. How do I do that? There's no sense in telling me to do something, but not telling me how to do it.

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 03:24 PM
frrek:


So get practical about it

Only if you are an elect.

And for those of us who are, we do it because it would be God working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure phil 2:

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

watchinginawe
Mar 30th 2010, 03:33 PM
Only a saved person can believe.What is the point? :dunno: Are you wanting to make sure that no one is pretending to be saved or something?

It has always seemed to me that the goal of reformed theology boils down to what one ought to believe after they believe, since they can't believe in the first place. It would be completely proper to say one or the other following propositions are therefore true: That God gives those who truly believe the proper thing to believe, i.e. because they are saved they find themselves believing a certain way; or that converts to reformed theology are won from among those who are saved and therefore can believe. I don't know, but I have been saved for many years now and God still hasn't caused me to believe that I can't believe. Or something like that. :help:

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 03:37 PM
frrek:



Only if you are an elect.

And for those of us who are, we do it because it would be God working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure phil 2:

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

How do we work out our own salvation?

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 30th 2010, 04:04 PM
How do we work out our own salvation?

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Firstfruits

ff,

let me ask you this...

are you 'working' to Gain God's Favor?

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 30th 2010, 04:07 PM
I noticed the I DO in the titile of your post...


WHAT MUST 'i do' to be Saved......

are you 'working' your way to Heaven?

or has it already been done FF...

IT IS FINISHED!

?

BroRog
Mar 30th 2010, 04:30 PM
Of course. I don't think I'm making myself clear here. There is something not coming across. :dunno:I think I understood you and if so, I agree with you.

Let me give it a try and see if we are on the same page. For me, the faith and the walk of faith is so profound and engages me at such a fundamental and foundational level of my existence as a human being that I find it difficult to hear anyone say of faith, "been there done that." Faith isn't something we do and get it over with. Faith is living the truth each and everyday of our lives under difficult and deeply perplexing circumstances. The challenge never seems to end. To the question "What must I do?" From my perspective, the answer is "Be somebody who cares."

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 04:38 PM
I noticed the I DO in the title of your post...


WHAT MUST 'i do' to be Saved......

are you 'working' your way to Heaven?

or has it already been done FF...

IT IS FINISHED!

?

It is natural for men to ask how can I do something, the man in acts 16:

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

When Paul replied, He was not giving the man a condition he must meet to get saved, but instructing him, as He perceived in him a spiritual desire for spiritual instruction, He directed him to believe on the Lord, of which, he began to speak to him the word of God vs 32.

Now Paul says, believe on the Lord [ after hearing the word spake of course] and thou shalt be saved.

Notice, Paul does not say, believe in the Lord, and though shalt get saved, but thou shalt be saved !

Thats extremely important, because what Paul means is that, if he would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, after hearing the word spoken to him and his house, then that meant he and they were already in a saved state, because being able to listen and hear, and believe the word of Truth, one must be a new creature and have a spiritual capacity to receive spiritual message.

But most of those who misapply this passage overlook and ignore what Paul said in vs 32

So the believing on the Lord makes manifest or gives evidence of one having been saved, and ensures all future salvation at the coming of the Lord.

Please give me your thoughts on this assessment.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 30th 2010, 05:42 PM
It is natural for men to ask how can I do something, the man in acts 16:

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

When Paul replied, He was not giving the man a condition he must meet to get saved, but instructing him, as He perceived in him a spiritual desire for spiritual instruction, He directed him to believe on the Lord, of which, he began to speak to him the word of God vs 32.

Now Paul says, believe on the Lord [ after hearing the word spake of course] and thou shalt be saved.

Notice, Paul does not say, believe in the Lord, and though shalt get saved, but thou shalt be saved !

Thats extremely important, because what Paul means is that, if he would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, after hearing the word spoken to him and his house, then that meant he and they were already in a saved state, because being able to listen and hear, and believe the word of Truth, one must be a new creature and have a spiritual capacity to receive spiritual message.

But most of those who misapply this passage overlook and ignore what Paul said in vs 32

So the believing on the Lord makes manifest or gives evidence of one having been saved, and ensures all future salvation at the coming of the Lord.

Please give me your thoughts on this assessment.


I pretty much agree with your discernment and assessment...

it is natural for a man to ask questions... I do all the time....

and the Jailor... he more than likely is a part of God's Elect... as those things that happened. did not happen by coincidence or 'luck'... no God is Soveriegn and He works His Will... and the Holy Ghost who was there.. had probably already been working on the jailor's heart... It doesnt give us any record of it.. but Jesus said No Man comes to Him except the Father Draw Him.... and this is done thru the Work of the Holy Ghost... as He draws the Sinner to Jesus Christ... and Paul was the Vessel God used to administer the Word of God....

NOW..

many take what was spoken there.. and 'put into some formula' for salvation'...

which happens Today.. they have God in a formula.. esepcially when it comes to Salvation... and they go about presenting this formula ....saying if you just say this prayer and go thru this Routine.. then you'll have Eternal Life... puting the merits of Salvation.. into the hands of men in religion.. who take the Word of God and put God in a formula... leaving God behind.. as second fiddle player.. and telling God Himself... you must save this person.. Cause I've presented this formula for salvation...

that is a man centered Gospel.. which is the work of the other 'sower'.. that Jesus spoke about in His Parable..

some may say.. what???

it is.. because that salvation process.. was birthed with men... in religion.. these who are wise in their own eyes... portraying a God who is weak and unable to get it done... they attempt to Force God and put Him into a formula.... when it comes to Genuine Salvation... man goes on in his religious man centered salvation... this very prevalent today.. as we close these last hours of this planet... and man will be allowed to believe the 'lie'.. that he/she can become their own 'god'.. and this very evident by the man centered salvation they 'peddle'... and its these same weeds and tares.. that are obstinate to the Truth.. they harasss and provoke the Elect of God.. persecuting them.. because they are 'wise in their own eyes'...

But God is still on the Throne... and He is Drawing Sinners to Himself, and Revealing Himself to them, Saving them and Empowering them... this all done thru His Word, His Genuine Vessels of Mercy, these who have the Fullness of the Spirit and are Led to Preach and teach the Truth.. no wavering.. whatsoever.. this all done because its 'birthed' in Heaven.. not men in religion as they hold the 'truth' out in un Righteousness... and God's Will will be done.. on earth as it is in Heaven...

if you were to pull back the veil.. you would see a huge theatre.... and you have 2 sowers going Forth.. the Son of Man.. Jesus Christ sowing His True Seeds.. and then you have the one who wants to be like God.. always has been like that.. sowing his weeds.. but the fingerprint... is a man centered salvation.. as he lies to man... the merits of salvation are on you... and you can boast and feel as proud as you want about it... that my Friend.. is a lie right from the pit of hell....

Be strong Anthony..

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 05:58 PM
thebeloved:


and the Jailor... he more than likely is a part of God's Elect... as those things that happened. did not happen by coincidence or 'luck'... no God is Soveriegn and He works His Will... and the Holy Ghost who was there.. had probably already been working on the jailor's heart... It doesnt give us any record of it.. but Jesus said No Man comes to Him except the Father Draw Him.... and this is done thru the Work of the Holy Ghost... as He draws the Sinner to Jesus Christ... and Paul was the Vessel God used to administer the Word of God....

Amen, paul as peter did on the day of pentecost acts 2, gave spiritual instruction to those who they perceived had been prepared by god to receive it, or otherwise, give not that which is Holy to the dogs.

It was like the head apostles in jerusalem where not going to give [ whom they knew as a murderer] the right hand of fellowhip to paul until they first what ?

gal 2:9

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

And so paul with the jailor no doubt perceived Gods grace awakening this sinner man.

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 07:12 PM
Only a saved person can believe.

Should this not be, only one who believes can be saved?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 07:35 PM
ff,

let me ask you this...

are you 'working' to Gain God's Favor?

Is it not scriptural to do that which is pleasing to God, with regards to the following scriptures?

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit 3:14 And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

What does it mean to do the will of God?

Mk 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 07:39 PM
I noticed the I DO in the titile of your post...


WHAT MUST 'i do' to be Saved......

are you 'working' your way to Heaven?

or has it already been done FF...

IT IS FINISHED!

?

The plan of salvation is finished, but we still must do the work of God.

What is the work of God we must do to be saved?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 07:48 PM
FF, you must first find out whether you've been chosen. Else why bother. Eat, drink and fornicate for tomorrow you die anyway. :D

Only by faith and holding on to the promise to the end, and hearing Jesus say well done at his return can anyone know where they will go.

All we have is hope.

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Until we die or Jesus returns we can only hope.

Firstfruits

Bladers
Mar 30th 2010, 07:56 PM
Faith isn't something we do and get it over with. Faith is living the truth each and everyday of our lives under difficult and deeply perplexing circumstances. The challenge never seems to end. To the question "What must I do?" From my perspective, the answer is "Be somebody who cares."

That is the most profound thing i have heard in these forums....
Simple | Yet Profound!

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 08:20 PM
That is the most profound thing i have heard in these forums....
Simple | Yet Profound!

Yet we cannot seem to accept the simplicity that is in Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

kay-gee
Mar 30th 2010, 11:42 PM
To be really sure...Go throught the entire NT, and wherever the word "save" or "saved" appears in conjuntion with an action, DO it.

For example...

Believe

Repent

Confess

Baptism

Endure


No problems!!!

all the best...

BruceG
Mar 31st 2010, 12:48 AM
With regards to the following scriptures, What must we do to be saved?

Acts 2:37-39
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Acts 16:29-31
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 10:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

"What must I do to be saved"

Firstfruits

Firstfruits, I tend to agree with Seeking. We want to reduce things down to an easy formula. I can add 10 scriptures that may tweak that formula, some radically.

For instance, Jesus told us to count the cost, for to get the pearl of great price, we have to relinquish ownership of all our other pearls. We Christians are not taught that. We ignore what it costs us, but Jesus was emphatic...count the cost. It costs us our life for us to enjoy His.

Another addendum.... endurance. We are told the he that endures to the end will be saved, and that he that overcometh is saved. Just becasue good seed sprouts does not mean it will survive. Worldly cares can creep in, no full dpeth of repentance, occupation with other things, all threaten our walks and in the end our salvation.

Getting cleansed of sin is a part of our salvation, a part that has been ignored by the majority of Christendom. Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

Ultimately, lordship is the real key. If we remain in control of our lives, and never give the authority of our life to Christ to not just forgive us but rule over as as our Lord, our salvation is in doubt. Look at the last part of the parable of the talents, after the one man had made no gain with what the master entrusted to him. He said "and bring all those who would not have me to reign over them and slay them before me."
Self lordship=rebellion

Bruce

losthorizon
Mar 31st 2010, 01:12 AM
I tend to agree with Seeking. We want to reduce things down to an easy formula. I can add 10 scriptures that may tweak that formula, some radically.


But it appears in the passages provided by FF that Peter does just that - he reduces the requirements for salvation at conversion to (1) belief, (2) repentance and (3) baptism in water. Those Jews on that day who believed the gospel message asked the important question of the apostles of Christ - "Men and brethren, what shall we do [to be saved]?" Peter's answer was 'easy' - he said, "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." (Acts 2:38). How would you 'tweak that formula radically' and remain true to God's word?
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (Act 2:40-41 KJV)

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 01:42 PM
To be really sure...Go throught the entire NT, and wherever the word "save" or "saved" appears in conjuntion with an action, DO it.

For example...

Believe

Repent

Confess

Baptism

Endure


No problems!!!

all the best...

Agreed, and just a few more.

Mt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

And the list goes on.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 01:50 PM
Firstfruits, I tend to agree with Seeking. We want to reduce things down to an easy formula. I can add 10 scriptures that may tweak that formula, some radically.

For instance, Jesus told us to count the cost, for to get the pearl of great price, we have to relinquish ownership of all our other pearls. We Christians are not taught that. We ignore what it costs us, but Jesus was emphatic...count the cost. It costs us our life for us to enjoy His.

Another addendum.... endurance. We are told the he that endures to the end will be saved, and that he that overcometh is saved. Just becasue good seed sprouts does not mean it will survive. Worldly cares can creep in, no full dpeth of repentance, occupation with other things, all threaten our walks and in the end our salvation.

Getting cleansed of sin is a part of our salvation, a part that has been ignored by the majority of Christendom. Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

Ultimately, lordship is the real key. If we remain in control of our lives, and never give the authority of our life to Christ to not just forgive us but rule over as as our Lord, our salvation is in doubt. Look at the last part of the parable of the talents, after the one man had made no gain with what the master entrusted to him. He said "and bring all those who would not have me to reign over them and slay them before me."
Self lordship=rebellion

Bruce

Would it be agreeable to say that if we work out our own salvation according to the will of God, we would be acceptable to God?

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What then is the will of the Father?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 02:36 PM
I continue to marvel at how many complicate the gospel. Perhaps the question in the OP should have been not what must I do but what can I do?

You cannot save yourself. You cannot keep yourself saved. You cannot baptise yourself. You cannot even believe by the will of yourself. You cannot repent in the power of your own will.

Many have enumerated intellectual facts drawn from the scriptures that they have deemed essential for the salvation of the soul. In so far as it is necessary for a knowledge of sin intellectual information is useful. Sin can be and often is rationalized on an intellectual level. Based on what I see in others I'm not worse than most is the ususal line of reasoning. So the intellectual knowledge of sin is very limited in it's usefulness.

What must I do to be saved? I must admit that I am a sinner. I can do this only when the Holy Spirit makes it clear to my heart that I have offended Gods perfect righteousness. I must admit that Gods judgement on sin is death and that I deserve to die for my sin. The Holy Spirit must reveal to my heart that I cannot outsmart or avoid Gods judgment on sin. No argument I can muster will sway the judgement of God on my sin. Only after I see myself as completely lost and without hope can I see what Christ has done for me. I can only receive the gift of eternal life by grace through faith when I have forsaken all hope in my own merits. These are the only things that I can do. I cannot merit grace. I cannot persevere. I cannot endure. I can only trust in the grace of God. I can trust in the grace of God because God has given me the faith to do so from His word the bible and the Holy Spirit makes this manifest in my heart.

What can I do to be saved other than realize I can do nothing. Surrender to God. Surrender everything to God. Place myself at His mercy with no expectation save that He is merciful.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

thedee
Mar 31st 2010, 03:00 PM
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

:)

The demons do believe that there is a God... of course... but is there love?. of course not.

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." - 1 John 3:23

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 03:06 PM
But it appears in the passages provided by FF that Peter does just that - he reduces the requirements for salvation at conversion to (1) belief, (2) repentance and (3) baptism in water. Those Jews on that day who believed the gospel message asked the important question of the apostles of Christ - "Men and brethren, what shall we do [to be saved]?" Peter's answer was 'easy' - he said, "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." (Acts 2:38). How would you 'tweak that formula radically' and remain true to God's word?
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (Act 2:40-41 KJV)

Thank you Losthorizon,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 03:09 PM
The demons do believe that there is a God... of course... but is there love?. of course not.

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." - 1 John 3:23

Also they do not repent and are not converted.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 03:10 PM
I continue to marvel at how many complicate the gospel. Perhaps the question in the OP should have been not what must I do but what can I do?

You cannot save yourself. You cannot keep yourself saved. You cannot baptise yourself. You cannot even believe by the will of yourself. You cannot repent in the power of your own will.

Many have enumerated intellectual facts drawn from the scriptures that they have deemed essential for the salvation of the soul. In so far as it is necessary for a knowledge of sin intellectual information is useful. Sin can be and often is rationalized on an intellectual level. Based on what I see in others I'm not worse than most is the ususal line of reasoning. So the intellectual knowledge of sin is very limited in it's usefulness.

What must I do to be saved? I must admit that I am a sinner. I can do this only when the Holy Spirit makes it clear to my heart that I have offended Gods perfect righteousness. I must admit that Gods judgement on sin is death and that I deserve to die for my sin. The Holy Spirit must reveal to my heart that I cannot outsmart or avoid Gods judgment on sin. No argument I can muster will sway the judgement of God on my sin. Only after I see myself as completely lost and without hope can I see what Christ has done for me. I can only receive the gift of eternal life by grace through faith when I have forsaken all hope in my own merits. These are the only things that I can do. I cannot merit grace. I cannot persevere. I cannot endure. I can only trust in the grace of God. I can trust in the grace of God because God has given me the faith to do so from His word the bible and the Holy Spirit makes this manifest in my heart.

What can I do to be saved other than realize I can do nothing. Surrender to God. Surrender everything to God. Place myself at His mercy with no expectation save that He is merciful.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are you not surrendering to the will of God, to do according to his will?

What therefore is Gods will?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Mar 31st 2010, 03:16 PM
What can I do to be saved other than realize I can do nothing.


Well let’s see the - gospel according to Roger: What must we do to be saved: Nothing, Nada, Zilch, Zip. The gospel according to Peter (inspired by the Holy Spirit): What must we do to be saved: (1) believe, (2) repent and (3) be baptized in water.
"Men and brethren, what shall we do [to be saved]?" Peter's answered "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." ~ Apostle Peter (Acts 2:38).
Let’s see door #1 – the gospel according to Roger or door #2, the gospel according to Peter. I will go with the gospel of Christ preached by Peter - faith, repentance and baptism all precede “the remission of sins”. There is something we must do – we must “obey from the heart” the form of teaching delivered.
Romans 6:17-18 (New International Version)
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 03:21 PM
Well let’s see the - gospel according to Roger: What must we do to be saved: Nothing, Nada, Zilch, Zip. The gospel according to Peter (inspired by the Holy Spirit): What must we do to be saved: (1) believe, (2) repent and (3) be baptized in water.
"Men and brethren, what shall we do [to be saved]?" Peter's answered "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." ~ Apostle Peter (Acts 2:38).
Let’s see door #1 – the gospel according to Roger or door #2, the gospel according to Peter. I will go with the gospel of Christ preached by Peter - faith, repentance and baptism all precede “the remission of sins”. There is something we must do – we must “obey from the heart” the form of teaching delivered.
Romans 6:17-18 (New International Version)
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Amen! We are now servants to God to do His will, but it seems as though we do not know what His will is.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

thedee
Mar 31st 2010, 03:24 PM
Well let’s see the - gospel according to Roger: What must we do to be saved: Nothing, Nada, Zilch, Zip. The gospel according to Peter (inspired by the Holy Spirit): What must we do to be saved: (1) believe, (2) repent and (3) be baptized in water

First you say that we can do nothing to be saved... then you put water baptism in there. Is that not a contradiction?

losthorizon
Mar 31st 2010, 04:23 PM
First you say that we can do nothing to be saved... then you put water baptism in there. Is that not a contradiction?
Read a bit closer – Roger says there is nothing we need to do to be saved but Paul and Peter say there are the “works of God” that we must do – the works of God include belief, repentance and baptism. These we do as we “obey from the heart” the gospel of Christ.

thedee
Mar 31st 2010, 04:28 PM
Read a bit closer – Roger says there is nothing we need to do to be saved but Paul and Peter say there are the “works of God” that we must do – the works of God include belief, repentance and baptism. These we do as we “obey from the heart” the gospel of Christ.

I just want to make it clear because you quoted Acts 2:38 and a lot of people use that to say that water baptism is necessary for salvation and it is not.

losthorizon
Mar 31st 2010, 04:51 PM
I just want to make it clear because you quoted Acts 2:38 and a lot of people use that to say that water baptism is necessary for salvation and it is not.
Water baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" preceded by true faith and repentance is "for the remission of sins..." The blood of Christ is what finally and completely washes away our sins as we "call upon the name of the Lord..."
Acts 22:16 (King James Version)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

watchinginawe
Mar 31st 2010, 05:02 PM
I continue to marvel at how many complicate the gospel. Perhaps the question in the OP should have been not what must I do but what can I do?

You cannot save yourself. You cannot keep yourself saved. You cannot baptise yourself. You cannot even believe by the will of yourself. You cannot repent in the power of your own will.
...
I can only receive the gift of eternal life by grace through faith when I have forsaken all hope in my own merits. These are the only things that I can do.
...
What can I do to be saved other than realize I can do nothing. Surrender to God. Surrender everything to God. Place myself at His mercy with no expectation save that He is merciful.:hmm: Perhaps the matter can be distilled a little further to:

I can only receive or reject the gift of eternal life by grace through faith. I can receive it when I have forsaken all hope in my own merits. These are the only things that I can do. I reject the gift when I don't do the only things that I can do to receive grace.

That gets us to the real meat of the matter probably, whether a provision of grace is intended to all or not.

God Bless!

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 05:51 PM
Well let’s see the - gospel according to Roger: What must we do to be saved: Nothing, Nada, Zilch, Zip. The gospel according to Peter (inspired by the Holy Spirit): What must we do to be saved: (1) believe, (2) repent and (3) be baptized in water.
"Men and brethren, what shall we do [to be saved]?" Peter's answered "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." ~ Apostle Peter (Acts 2:38).
Let’s see door #1 – the gospel according to Roger or door #2, the gospel according to Peter. I will go with the gospel of Christ preached by Peter - faith, repentance and baptism all precede “the remission of sins”. There is something we must do – we must “obey from the heart” the form of teaching delivered.
Romans 6:17-18 (New International Version)
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.

Grace is not work. Grace is Gods provision of salvation through faith. Apart from grace you have no faith, repentance or Holy Spirit baptism. By works one establishes his/her own righteousness. By grace one receives the righteousness of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 06:11 PM
Water baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" preceded by true faith and repentance is "for the remission of sins..." The blood of Christ is what finally and completely washes away our sins as we "call upon the name of the Lord..."
Acts 22:16 (King James Version)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Water cannot cleanse the soul from sin. If you are depending on water baptism for salvation...well...grace is not water baptism. Gal 1:6-9 Paul warns of those who preach a gospel other than the gospel of grace of Christ. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God for if righteousness come by the law then Christ is dead in vain. Paul continues in Gal 3:1-5 to stress this point.

Heb 9:12 & 14 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. How much more shall the blood of Christ, Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God to purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood of Christ is not an after thought. The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of sin.

John 1:33 speaks of the only baptism that saves. It is received by grace through faith and not from men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 06:17 PM
:hmm: Perhaps the matter can be distilled a little further to:

I can only receive or reject the gift of eternal life by grace through faith. I can receive it when I have forsaken all hope in my own merits. These are the only things that I can do. I reject the gift when I don't do the only things that I can do to receive grace.

That gets us to the real meat of the matter probably, whether a provision of grace is intended to all or not.

God Bless!
Perhaps if you do not receive you have rejected by default. Judgment and condemnation is already determined against all who have sinned. Gods grace is sufficient for all but not all will not receive. In fact few ther be that enter in at the straight gate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

losthorizon
Apr 1st 2010, 01:06 AM
Grace is not work.


And of course no one on this thread said grace is work. Did they?


By works one establishes his/her own righteousness. By grace one receives the righteousness of Christ.

Context is king, Roger and your application of Romans 11:6 is out of context. Paul is explaining to Jewish Christians that salvation is by grace - a gift from the heart of God. This truth he contrasts with the false teaching that salvation comes from doing the works of the Jewish law (works of merit). There is nothing taught in Romans 11:6 that negates the truth taught by Peter that faith, repentance and baptism all come BEFORE “the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). You can’t just cherry pick an isolated text – take it out of context - and then sweep the truth taught by Peter under the rug. We are obligated by God to present the full council of God.

Holy Writ tells us there are two kinds of works – (1) works of “merit” done to "earn" something and (2) works of "faith" done to "receive" something. Works of faith are required by God “that we might work the works of God.” Faith, repentance and baptism are all commanded by God and thus when one obeys God’s commands from the heart that person is doing the “work of God". Remember - God's truth is not always convenient or comfortable but it is always the truth.

BibleGirl02
Apr 1st 2010, 01:16 AM
How to be saved. (http://www.allaboutgod.com/how-to-be-saved.htm)

losthorizon
Apr 1st 2010, 01:19 AM
Water cannot cleanse the soul from sin.


Straw-man Roger – no one is saying water cleanses the soul from sin (it doesn't). I have already stated it is *the blood of Christ* (and His blood alone) that completely and finally washes away sins. This we see clearly see when Paul was commanded by Ananias to… “arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins…” Paul believed; Paul repented; Paul obeyed his Lord in baptism; Paul’s sins were washed away by the blood of Christ as he was baptized in water - calling on the name of his Lord and Savior. Once again – belief, repentance and baptism come before one’s sins are washed away by the blood of Christ. It doesn’t get any clearer. Right?
Acts 22:16 (King James Version)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Firstfruits
Apr 1st 2010, 08:05 AM
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.

Grace is not work. Grace is Gods provision of salvation through faith. Apart from grace you have no faith, repentance or Holy Spirit baptism. By works one establishes his/her own righteousness. By grace one receives the righteousness of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I believe the works being spoken of are the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The question then is how can we do the will of God if not by the law, which is His will?

How do we work the work of God?

Firstfruits

watchinginawe
Apr 1st 2010, 02:30 PM
Perhaps if you do not receive you have rejected by default. Judgment and condemnation is already determined against all who have sinned.When one hears the Gospel then the potential of active rejection exists IMO. This could be as simple as unbelief or as complicated as envy. We can come up with all kinds of possibilities with the following passage, but it seems to me that those who rejected were not rejected of God but that they rejected God:

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


Gods grace is sufficient for all but not all will not receive. In fact few ther be that enter in at the straight gate.

For the cause of Christ
RogerAgreed. However it isn't only that God's grace is sufficient, but the essential extract is that God's sufficient grace is offered. But I find a great deal of agreement with you without having to dance around the sombrero.

God Bless!

thedee
Apr 1st 2010, 02:39 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, What must we do to be saved?

Acts 2:37-39
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Acts 16:29-31
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 10:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

"What must I do to be saved"

Firstfruits

This is so simple....
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" - Romans 10:9

"what must I do to be saved? So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved..." - Acts 16:30-32

It is not water baptsim that saves you but faith in our Lord Jesus Christ... period.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 03:09 PM
And of course no one on this thread said grace is work. Did they?


Context is king, Roger and your application of Romans 11:6 is out of context. Paul is explaining to Jewish Christians that salvation is by grace - a gift from the heart of God. This truth he contrasts with the false teaching that salvation comes from doing the works of the Jewish law (works of merit). There is nothing taught in Romans 11:6 that negates the truth taught by Peter that faith, repentance and baptism all come BEFORE “the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). You can’t just cherry pick an isolated text – take it out of context - and then sweep the truth taught by Peter under the rug. We are obligated by God to present the full council of God.

Holy Writ tells us there are two kinds of works – (1) works of “merit” done to "earn" something and (2) works of "faith" done to "receive" something. Works of faith are required by God “that we might work the works of God.” Faith, repentance and baptism are all commanded by God and thus when one obeys God’s commands from the heart that person is doing the “work of God". Remember - God's truth is not always convenient or comfortable but it is always the truth.
Jesus said in John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

Did Jesus have it wrong? He did not require anything but believing. He who believes has eternal life.

It is wrong to make water baptism part of or a requirement for salvation. Water baptism has no salvitic effect. To make water baptism efficacious in salvation is to diminish the grace of God.

John speaks of the only baptism that is efficacious in salvation. John 1:33 Holy Spirit baptism is administered by Christ the moment a person believes. To attribute salvitic merit to any other baptism is to rob God of His glory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 03:13 PM
Water baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" preceded by true faith and repentance is "for the remission of sins..." The blood of Christ is what finally and completely washes away our sins as we "call upon the name of the Lord..."
Acts 22:16 (King James Version)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
I find it interesting to note that "true faith" comes not from water baptism but from hearing and hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 03:22 PM
I believe the works being spoken of are the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The question then is how can we do the will of God if not by the law, which is His will?

How do we work the work of God?

Firstfruits
How have you determined that the will of God is for mankind to do the law?

Paul declares the law to be the schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:24

The law can only bring knowledge of sin. The law cannot make one righteous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 1st 2010, 03:23 PM
I find it interesting to note that "true faith" comes not from water baptism but from hearing and hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We cannot believe in what we have not heard about.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 05:02 PM
We cannot believe in what we have not heard about.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Firstfruits
Jesus told us who know Him to be witnesses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 1st 2010, 08:46 PM
This is so simple....
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" - Romans 10:9

"what must I do to be saved? So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved..." - Acts 16:30-32

It is not water baptsim that saves you but faith in our Lord Jesus Christ... period.

Does that mean that we do not need to hear what Jesus has commanded to be taught?

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 1st 2010, 08:48 PM
Jesus told us who know Him to be witnesses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Is it not the gospel that we are witnessing, about Christ and the kingdom of God?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:39 AM
Jesus said in John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

Did Jesus have it wrong? He did not require anything but believing. He who believes has eternal life.


Jesus was never wrong and once again you cherry-pick your favorite text and isolate it from the full council of God. Jesus also said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16). Clearly Jesus tells us that- belief and baptism both come before one "shall be saved". How do you explain this biblical truth? Does Mark 16:16 contradict John 5:24? I think not – the truth is both passages are true – God is not the author of confusion – yet you and your theology remain confused. Why?
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” ~ Jesus Christ

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary
It is wrong to make water baptism part of or a requirement for salvation. Water baptism has no salvitic effect. To make water baptism efficacious in salvation is to diminish the grace of God.
But it is God who makes baptism in water essential to the gospel of Christ. Baptism comes from the mind of God – not from man. As a NT ordinance it was instituted and commanded by Jesus Christ. Baptism in water (a burial) signifies our dying and rising with Christ by faith. Through baptism believers are united with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom_6:3-5). Baptism signifies the washing away of our sins by the blood of Christ (Act_22:16). Baptism is a sign of spiritual cleansing and while baptism should never be separated from that which it clearly signifies, the thing signified (salvation) should never be expected without the sign. You need to re-think my friend – you remain in error.
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
(Rom 6:3-5 ESV)Have you been united with Jesus in a death like his?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:44 AM
Does that mean that we do not need to hear what Jesus has commanded to be taught?

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Firstfruits

This post is about salvation. Baptism is not part of the gospel so is not necessary for salvation.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:50 AM
I find it interesting to note that "true faith" comes not from water baptism but from hearing and hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17

For the cause of Christ
Roger
This is another one of your non-arguments, Roger. No one is saying "true faith" comes from water baptism – are they? Baptism in water is simply an appeal to God for a good conscience as it points us to the resurrection of Jesus Christ…
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(1Pe 3:21 ESV)

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:53 AM
This post is about salvation. Baptism is not part of the gospel so is not necessary for salvation.
You are quite mistaken - baptism is from God and it is essential to the gospel of Christ..."go..teach...baptize..."
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
(Mat 28:18-20 ESV)Have you been baptized in water?

BroRog
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:58 AM
This is another one of your non-arguments, Roger. No one is saying "true faith" comes from water baptism – are they? Baptism in water is simply an appeal to God for a good conscience as it points us to the resurrection of Jesus Christ…
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(1Pe 3:21 ESV)
Peter isn't talking about water baptism here . . . "not as a removal of dirt from the body . . ."

kay-gee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:13 AM
It is not water baptsim that saves you but faith in our Lord Jesus Christ... period.[/QUOTE]

Oops!... directly contradicting The apostle Peter. Period!

Explain how one is sved "without" Remission (forgiveness of sins)

all the best...

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:13 AM
You are quite mistaken - baptism is from God and it is essential to the gospel of Christ..."go..teach...baptize..."
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
(Mat 28:18-20 ESV)Have you been baptized in water?

Was Paul wrong when he said:
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect." - 1 Cor 1:17

Clearly Paul made a distinction between the gospel and water baptism.

kay-gee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:20 AM
Peter isn't talking about water baptism here . . . "not as a removal of dirt from the body . . ."

BroRog my friend...please...just stop and tink about this for a moment....This is water baptism. If it were not, why would Peter even put this disclaimer in here? If this is some mystic baptism "in" Spirit as the anti-waters teach, then why would anyone even have the notion that the dirt was being removed from the body? There would be no need to clarify the point. The point is this...He is setting the record straight that baptism is NOT a common bath!!!

Question...Was the Etiopian baptized in a body of Spirit or a body of water. The apostles and other writers of the NT testament were not confused about which baptism is which. You are confused my friend.

all the best...

third hero
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:24 AM
Salvation is a gift. It is a Gift that is given to us by God. It is a gift that we, the ones who received it, can not enjoy until either after we pass from this world or Lord Jesus comes first. Salvation is the blessed assurance that we will not perish, but will have everlasting life. it is the promise that we will lose these mortal, corruptible bodies and gain incorruptible ones. And again, just to be clear, Salvation is a gift.

When one accepts that gift, that person is saved. Period. End of sentence. Water Baptism is a ritual that we undergo to show outwardly the repentance that we have committed to inside. Water can not save anyone, no matter how "blessed" it is suppose to be. Only faith in Lord Jesus as being the Son of God can save a person.

It is my opinion that the hard part of salvation is not the gaining of the gift, but the keeping of that gift. After we are saved, the enemy launches his hordes with hopes of getting the one who received the gift to either turn it back in or lose it altogether. This is where I believe the debate should begin, not the "how do I gain the Gift". Gaining the gift is easy, especially in light of everything else that we must do in order to keep the gift until the end.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:29 AM
Was Paul wrong when he said:
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect." - 1 Cor 1:17

Clearly Paul made a distinction between the gospel and water baptism.


You are again mistaken - Paul states that Christ sent him to preach the gospel and not to baptize. Paul did not say baptism was not part of the gospel of Christ because Paul knew baptism was part of the gospel – instituted and commanded by Jesus Christ. Those who assisted Paul did the baptizing (although Paul did baptize some). Your sectarian bias against baptism does not trump the words of Jesus. The NT does not know of an un-baptized Christian. Why - because baptism is essential to the gospel of Christ.
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” ~ Jesus Christ

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:36 AM
You are again mistaken - Paul states that Christ sent him to preach the gospel and not to baptize. Paul did not say baptism was not part of the gospel of Christ because Paul knew baptism was part of the gospel – instituted and commanded by Jesus Christ. Those who assisted Paul did the baptizing (although Paul did baptize some). Your sectarian bias against baptism does not trump the words of Jesus…
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” ~ Jesus Christ

It is clear what Paul said in 1 Cor 1:17. Nobody is ever baptized in water until after they believe. Water baptism is only something you do after you have accepted Christ as our Savior. Nowhere in scripture does it say that a failure to be baptized in water dams the soul but there are scores of verses that say unbelief will damn the soul.

If you are going to quote Mark 16:16 you need to quote the whole verse. I will bold what you left out
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:44 AM
Peter isn't talking about water baptism here . . . "not as a removal of dirt from the body . . ."


Well Rog - what part of H20 are you missing here? Again - it is the blood of Christ that washes away sins as one obeys his/her Lord in baptism - calling on the name of the Lord.
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'
(Act 22:16 ESV)Baptism is the "symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit" and while baptism should never be separated from that which it signifies, conversely the thing signified (salvation) should never be expected without the sign of baptism. Wouldn't you agree?
1 Pet 3:21. Baptism - Not the mere application of water, for that idea the apostle expressly disclaims, when he says that it involves not “putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us. ~ Albert Barnes' Notes on the BibleWhat about you Rog - have you been baptized having your sins washed away calling on the name of the Lord?

Sirus
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:45 AM
Question...Was the Etiopian baptized in a body of Spirit or a body of water.Water, after he believed.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:57 AM
It is clear what Paul said in 1 Cor 1:17. Nobody is ever baptized in water until after they believe. Water baptism is only something you do after you have accepted Christ as our Savior. Nowhere in scripture does it say that a failure to be baptized in water dams the soul but there are scores of verses that say unbelief will damn the soul.

If you are going to quote Mark 16:16 you need to quote the whole verse. I will bold what you left out
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
You misunderstand for the third time. The second clause of Mark 16:16, "he who does not believe will be condemned" does not negate the command of Jesus to be immersed in water. The Lord is simply saying the one who refuses to believe - whether baptized or not baptized - will be damned eternally. The one who contemptuously neglects the command of Christ to be baptized cannot expect to be saved. We are to do His will and His will includes being baptized in water.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mar 16:16 ESV)

"Every one that believed was baptized. But he that believeth not - Whether baptized or unbaptized, shall perish everlastingly." ~ John Wesley

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:59 AM
Water, after he believed.
And belief and baptism both precede "shall be saved" - yes?
precede (pr-sd)

1. To come, exist, or occur before in time.
2. To be in a position in front of; go in advance of.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:02 AM
You misunderstand for the third time. The second clause of Mark 16:16, "he who does not believe will be condemned" does not negate the command of Jesus to be immersed in water. The Lord is simply saying the one who refuses to believe - whether baptized or not baptized - will be damned eternally. The one who contemptuously neglects the command of Christ to be baptized cannot expect to be saved. We are to do His will and His will includes being baptized in water.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mar 16:16 ESV)

"Every one that believed was baptized. But he that believeth not - Whether baptized or unbaptized, shall perish everlastingly." ~ John Wesley

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry

Again, show me where a failure to be Water Baptized will damn the soul?
Also, what makes you think that Mark 16:16 is even talking about Water Baptism? What makes you think this is not talking about Spirtual Baptism? What happens to a person once they truly believe?... they are Spritually Baptized right?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:11 AM
Again, show me where a failure to be Water Baptized will damn the soul?


Already did.


Also, what makes you think that Mark 16:16 is even talking about Water Baptism?
Is it now your position that the baptism commanded by Jesus in the "Great Commission" - the baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" is not water baptism as the church of God has taught for 2000 years? Your error continues.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:16 AM
Water Baptism is a ritual that we undergo to show outwardly the repentance that we have committed to inside. Water can not save anyone, no matter how "blessed" it is suppose to be. Only faith in Lord Jesus as being the Son of God can save a person.


But no one is saying water saves - it is the blood of Christ that finally and completely saves. Baptism is an act of obedience that puts the believer into union with Christ Jesus and as such it is essential to the gospel of Christ.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27 ESV)

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:17 AM
Already did.

You did? Where did you quote a verse that specifies that a failure to be water baptized damns the soul?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:20 AM
But no one is saying water saves - it is the blood of Christ that finally and completely saves. Baptism is an act of obedience that puts the believer into union with Christ Jesus and as such it is essential to the gospel of Christ.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27 ESV)

Your prior post would suggest that water baptism is necessary for salvation. So to be clear... If a person truly believes in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart is he saved and going to heaven? Is he saved even if he doesn't get water baptized? I would say yes but what do you say?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:20 AM
You did? Where did you quote a verse that specifies that a failure to be water baptized damns the soul?
Again - the one who contemptuously neglects the command of Christ to be baptized cannot expect to be saved. We are to do His will and His will includes being baptized in water. Did God command baptism in water?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:25 AM
Your prior post would suggest that water baptism is necessary for salvation. So to be clear... If a person truly believes in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart is he saved and going to heaven? Is he saved even if he doesn't get water baptized? I would say yes but what do you say?
It is not my place to judge the hearts of men - that judgment rests with God alone. I can only tell you what the word of God says via the very words of Jesus Christ - "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved..." Once again we see the plain truth as presented in Holy Writ - baptism in water (a burial) is and always has been an essential part of the gospel of Christ. Have you been immersed in water?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:26 AM
Again - the one who contemptuously neglects the command of Christ to be baptized cannot expect to be saved. We are to do His will and His will includes being baptized in water. Did God command baptism in water?

He also told us to remember him by partaking of the bread and wine.... but a failure to do so does not damn a person soul.

"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment" - 1 John 3:23

Sirus
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:28 AM
And belief and baptism both precede "shall be saved" - yes?
precede (pr-sd)

1. To come, exist, or occur before in time.
2. To be in a position in front of; go in advance of.Which instance of "shall be saved" are you referring to? I'm sure you mean Mark 16:16 but I suggest you look at the others.
'Saved' is past present and future, based on current continual belief in a past event.
To know to do good and do it not is sin, but guess what, all sin is forgiven -past present and future.
No believer hears (understand and believe) 'be water baptized' then refuses water baptism.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:28 AM
It is not my place to judge the hearts of men - that judgment rests with God alone. I can only tell you what the word of God says via the very words of Jesus Christ - "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved..." Once again we see the plain truth as presented in Holy Writ - baptism in water (a burial) is and always has been an essential part of the gospel of Christ. Have you been immersed in water?

Yes, but after I believed and was saved. The Holy Spirit was already indwelt in me upon belief and I was immedietly spirtually baptized (Acts 11:15-17).

Sirus
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:29 AM
He also told us to remember him by partaking of the bread and wine.... but a failure to do so does not damn a person soul.

"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment" - 1 John 3:23Oh yes it will -according to the same rule, which is rarely applied. Convenient eh?

However, losthorizon did say "contemptuously"

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:32 AM
Oh yes it will -according to the same rule, which is never applied. Convenient eh?

We can't do anything of ourself to be saved. We are not saved by works.

"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment" - 1 John 3:23

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:33 AM
He also told us to remember him by partaking of the bread and wine.... but a failure to do so does not damn a person soul.


It doesn't? Are you qualified to make that judgment call? Why would anyone refuse to partake of the Lord's Supper? Why would anyone refuse to be immersed in water? Can we intentionally and habitually disobey God and still be saved? "To obey is better than sacrifice..."
This Do in Remembrance of Me ~ Jesus Christ

Sirus
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:33 AM
We can't do anything of ourself to be saved. We are not saved by works.

"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment" - 1 John 3:23

I was agreeing with you.....

Sirus
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:35 AM
Why would anyone refuse to partake of the Lord's Supper?I didn't see 'refuse' in thedee's post.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:38 AM
It doesn't? Are you qualified to make that judgment call?

Correct it doesn't. I am not qualified to make that call but the scriptures are qualifed on how we are to be saved.


Why would anyone refuse to be immersed in water?
How would I know? What if a person was reading a bible in an airplane and at that moment believed and then before they could land and for that person to get water baptized the plane crashed and they die. With your reasoning it seems that person goes to hell being they were not water baptized.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:38 AM
Yes, but after I believed and was saved. The Holy Spirit was already indwelt in me upon belief and I was immedietly spirtually baptized (Acts 11:15-17).
Can you please refer me to the version of the Bible you use that says, "Whoever believes and is saved shall be baptized"? Was Jesus mistaken when He placed belief and baptism before "shall be saved"?
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved...(Mar 16:16 ESV)

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:43 AM
Correct it doesn't. I am not qualified to make that call but the scriptures are qualifed on how we are to be saved.


Yes and scriptures are clear - he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.


How would I know? What if a person was reading a bible in an airplane and at that moment believed and then before they could land and for that person to get water baptized the plane crashed and they die. With your reasoning it seems that person goes to hell being they were not water baptized.
But we are not on a plane about to die nor is anyone who is reading this thread. We are discussing what one must do to be saved as presented in the Book. Any exception God would make does not change what is required of one who will obey the gospel of grace.

crossnote
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:44 AM
It seems to me that there is a huge confusion of law (what we are to do) and Gospel (what Christ has done for us.)
In the case of Christ's atoning work (death for our sins, burial, and resurrection) that is pure Gospel.
1Cor 15:1-4. In a secondary sense- faith, repentance and baptism are required of us so that Christ main work may be applied to us...BUT..they (faith, repentance, and Baptism) are gifts God gives us and not works of merit.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:8)

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
(Act 11:18)

Much of the Church mistakenly views baptism as a work we do. No, it is a gift from God that He does through His Church (IN MY NAME). When an ambassador officially says or acts in a foreign country he says or does it 'in the name of the United States' or whatever country he is representing. Thus in a real sense it is the United States that is saying or doing it not the ambassador. The hardest part is seeing baptism as something God does to us and for us through His Church and therefore a gift.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:44 AM
Can you please refer me to the version of the Bible you use that says, "Whoever believes and is saved shall be baptized"? Was Jesus mistaken when He placed belief and baptism before "shall be saved"?
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved...(Mar 16:16 ESV)

Usually when I quote here I use the NKJV. I study with the KJV, NKJV, Darby, NIV, and NASB.

As far as Mark 16:16 go you are taking one verse. What about these:
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." - John 3:36

All believers are spirtually baptized:
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit" - 1 Cor 12:13

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:46 AM
Can you please refer me to the version of the Bible you use that says, "Whoever believes and is saved shall be baptized"? Was Jesus mistaken when He placed belief and baptism before "shall be saved"?
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved...(Mar 16:16 ESV)

For this verse the NKJV says:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" - Mark 16:16

This is what I use... not sure where the "and is saved" came from.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:47 AM
But we are not on a plane about to die nor is anyone who is reading this thread. We are discussing what one must do to be saved as presented in the Book. Any exception God would make does not change what is required of one who will obey the gospel of grace.

So what happens in this case? There are thousands of people in the air right now. There is a good chance someone unsaved is sitting by someone that is saved and is giving them the gospel.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:57 AM
We can't do anything of ourself to be saved.


You are mistaken once again – there is something we must do to be saved. We must believe; we must repent; and we must be baptized. Please note the words of Peter to those Jews who first believed and then asked “what must we do to be saved?” Unlike your advice that there is nothing one can do, Peter told them the truth from God's word - there was more to do – they must also repent and be baptized in water and then their sins would be remitted…
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:37-38 ESV)

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:02 AM
So what happens in this case? There are thousands of people in the air right now. There is a good chance someone unsaved is sitting by someone that is saved and is giving them the gospel.
I would hope that those unsaved souls would obey the gospel of grace as soon as their planes land and they can do that which God requires.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:05 AM
You are mistaken once again – there is something we must do to be saved. We must believe; we must repent; and we must be baptized. Please note the words of Peter to those Jews who first believed and then asked “what must we do to be saved?” Unlike your advice that there is nothing one can do, Peter told them the truth from God's word - there was more to do – they must also repent and be baptized in water and then their sins would be remitted…
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:37-38 ESV)

No kidding.

Please read acts 2:37 and 38 carefully. In verse 37 they believed (they were cut to the heart).... in verse 38 they were told to be baptized.

They asked "what shall we do" they did not ask "what shall we do to be saved".

Can we not be more plain and clear:
"what must I do to be saved? So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:30,31

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:06 AM
I would hope that those unsaved souls would obey the gospel of grace as soon as their planes land and they can do that which God requires.

I feel like we are playing dodge ball.... I made an example that IF the plane crashes before this person can be water baptized. Is it possible for him to go to heaven?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:08 AM
Usually when I quote here I use the NKJV. I study with the KJV, NKJV, Darby, NIV, and NASB.

As far as Mark 16:16 go you are taking one verse. What about these:
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." - John 3:36

All believers are spirtually baptized:
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit" - 1 Cor 12:13
There is nothing presented in John 3:18, John 3:36 and 1 Cor 12:13 that contradicts what is presented in Mark 16:16 when the New Testament is viewed in context and in its entirety. Do you see a conflict between these passages?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:09 AM
I feel like we are playing dodge ball.... I made an example that IF the plane crashes before this person can be water baptized. Is it possible for him to go to heaven?
And I answer your question honestly. Go back and read my posts.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:09 AM
There is nothing presented in John 3:18, John 3:36 and 1 Cor 12:13 that contradicts what is presented in Mark 16:16 when the New Testament is viewed in context and in its entirety. Do you see a conflict between these passages?

Nope. My point is... no believer is condemned for not being water baptized.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:12 AM
And I answer your question honestly. Go back and read my posts.

No you didn't... the plane crashed so how can they land for you said


I would hope that those unsaved souls would obey the gospel of grace as soon as their planes land and they can do that which God requires.

But whatif the plane crashed and they died.


What happens to a soldier fighting in the desert who becomes saved but before they could get water baptized got shot and killed?

You see, I am not against getting baptized in water after you believe. I am strongly against those who suggest it is necessary for salvation.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:12 AM
For this verse the NKJV says:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" - Mark 16:16

This is what I use... not sure where the "and is saved" came from.
Then you admit that the NKJV does not say (as you say) "He who believes and is saved will be baptized"?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:14 AM
Nope. My point is... no believer is condemned for not being water baptized.
Does Jesus say that one must believe and be baptized before he will be saved?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:16 AM
Then you admit that the NKJV does not say (as you say) "He who believes and is saved will be baptized"?

You understand what you are doing? You are taking one verse... Take scripture as a whole.

Again can we not be more plain and clear:
"what must I do to be saved? So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:30,31

Why did he not say be baptized in Acts 16:30 and 31... and could give you scores of verses but you are mis applying one verse and that is Mark 16:16 to come to your conclusion.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:17 AM
Does Jesus say that one must believe and be baptized before he will be saved?

What did he say in John 3:16? Is there a contradiction there?. Of course not.... Again, you are misusing one verse to support water baptism as a means for salvation.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:18 AM
No kidding.

Please read acts 2:37 and 38 carefully. In verse 37 they believed (they were cut to the heart).... in verse 38 they were told to be baptized.

They asked "what shall we do" they did not ask "what shall we do to be saved".

Can we not be more plain and clear:
"what must I do to be saved? So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:30,31
Once again you misunderstand - Peter clearly states to those who have already believed that they must do more before their sins are remitted - they must also repent and be baptized "for the remission of sins". Sin are not remitted until one believes, repents and is baptized. You will have to try hard to miss this truth - yes?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:20 AM
What did he say in John 3:16? Is there a contradiction there?. Of course not.... Again, you are misusing one verse to support water baptism as a means for salvation.
I present the truth as presented in God's word - belief and baptism precede "shall be saved" per Jesus Christ. What do you not understand?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:21 AM
What did he say in John 3:16? Is there a contradiction there?. Of course not....

You didn't answer my question - does Jesus say that one must believe and be baptized before he will be saved?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:23 AM
Once again you misunderstand - Peter clearly states to those who have already believed that they must do more before their sins are remitted - they must also repent and be baptized "for the remission of sins". Sin are not remitted until one believes, repents and is baptized. You will have to try hard to miss this truth - yes?

Again, scripture interprets scripture.

"To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." - Acts 10:43
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" - Eph 1:7
"in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins." - Col 1:14
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" - 1 John 1:9

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:24 AM
I present the truth as presented in God's word - belief and baptism precede "shall be saved" per Jesus Christ. What do you not understand?

The part I don't understand is why you make water baptism a means for salvation?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:26 AM
You didn't answer my question - does Jesus say that one must believe and be baptized before he will be saved?

What a silly question. Of course the bible says that... but clearly you are mis applying this one verse and not taking scripture as a whole.

Again we shall quote:
"what must I do to be saved? So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:30,31

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:26 AM
You understand what you are doing? You are taking one verse... Take scripture as a whole.


You refuse to address the truth presented in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 - why? These passages show that belief, repentance and baptism all take place before one's sins are remitted by the blood of Christ.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
(Mar 16:16 ESV)

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 ESV)

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:28 AM
You refuse to address the truth presented in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 - why? These passages show that belief, repentance and baptism all take place before one's sins are remitted by the blood of Christ.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
(Mar 16:16 ESV)

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 ESV)

Really, did you not read post # 151?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:29 AM
The part I don't understand is why you make water baptism a means for salvation?
Again - we are saved by the blood of Christ and His blood alone and I didn't institute and command baptism - Jesus did. And by doing what He did He made baptism an essential part of the gospel.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:30 AM
Again - we are saved by the blood of Christ and His blood alone and I didn't institute and command baptism - Jesus did. And by doing what He did He made baptism an essential part of the gospel.

An essential part.... but the key question is it necessary to go to heaven?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:31 AM
What a silly question. Of course the bible says that... but clearly you are mis applying this one verse and not taking scripture as a whole.


There is nothing to misapply - the grammar is clear - both belief and baptism are to take place before one will be saved. It is open and shut.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:32 AM
An essential part.... but the key question is it necessary to go to heaven?
Then you agree that baptism in water is essential to the gospel of Christ?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:34 AM
There is nothing to misapply - the grammar is clear - both belief and baptism are to take place before one will be saved. It is open and shut.

You still havn't replied to my post #143 and answered the question. You see this is a tough one for those who believe water baptism is necessary/a must for salvation.

Again, as far as Mark 16:16... belief is the key for verse 17 clarifies that:
"And these signs will follow those who believe"

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:35 AM
Really, did you not read post # 151?
Then you and I agree with Peter that belief, repentance and be baptism take place before "remission of sins"?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:36 AM
Then you agree that baptism in water is essential to the gospel of Christ?

Let me explain to you the purpose of water baptism in a nutshell:

Water baptism is a FIGURE or TYPE of something which already took place in the heart of the believer the moment he/she was saved (1 Pet. 3:21). Water baptism is the ordinance representing the identification of the Christian with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You are "crucified" (standing upright in water), you are "buried" (immersed into the water), and you are "resurrected into life" (raised out of the water). Water baptism then, is a picture of spiritual baptism as defined in Rom. 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is the outward testimony of the believer's inward faith. A sinner is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is a visible testimony to that faith.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:39 AM
You still havn't replied to my post #143 and answered the question. You see this is a tough one for those who believe water baptism is necessary/a must for salvation.


But I did answer and it is not "tough" at all. You simply base your theology on speculation - "what if". I base my theology on what is written in the Book and the Book teaches the truth about baptism and it's essential nature to the gospel of grace. That is what is hard for you to digest - the truth.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:40 AM
Let me explain to you the purpose of water baptism in a nutshell:


Then you agree that baptism in water is essential to the gospel of Christ?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:40 AM
Then you and I agree with Peter that belief, repentance and be baptism take place before "remission of sins"?

"To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." - Acts 10:43

In Acts 10:44-48 the Holy Spirit fell upon them BEFORE they were baptized in water.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:42 AM
But I did answer and it is not "tough" at all. You simply base your theology on speculation - "what if". I base my theology on what is written in the Book and the Book teaches the truth about baptism and it's essential nature to the gospel of grace. That is what is hard for you to digest - the truth.

Ok, in post #143 you can't tell me whether or not the person in the airplane and the soldier in the desert would go to heaven or not? I will answer it for you... if they believed in the Lord Jesus Christ they will be saved and they will go to heaven even tho they did not get a chance to get water baptized.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:45 AM
Then you agree that baptism in water is essential to the gospel of Christ?

Read what I said...

thedee - A sinner is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is a visible testimony to that faith.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:49 AM
Ok, in post #143 you can't tell me whether or not the person in the airplane and the soldier in the desert would go to heaven or not? I will answer it for you... if they believed in the Lord Jesus Christ they will be saved and they will go to heaven even tho they did not get a chance to get water baptized.
Then you claim to have the ability to judge God's judgment regarding the souls of men? You know their hearts? Jesus clearly says to believe and be baptized and you say believe only? You can't both be correct. Does your word trump the word of Jesus.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:51 AM
Read what I said...
Here is what you said...


thedee
An essential part.... but the key question is it necessary to go to heaven?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:55 AM
Then you claim to have the ability to judge God's judgment regarding the souls of men? You know their hearts? Jesus clearly says to believe and be baptized and you say believe only? You can't both be correct. Does your word trump the word of Jesus.

Wrong. I am only stating what the scriptures teach. You are not taking the entire scripture as a whole and only using tunnel vision and looking at Mark 16:16... You also ignore Mark 16:17 where belief is reiterated.

God is clear on how a soul becomes saved. I did not say I know the heart of man... what kind of silly statement is that. I stated in post #166 if that person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ they will be saved and go to heaven and I can say that with assurity. And with that statement how do you come up with me "judging a man's heart"?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:56 AM
Here is what you said...

Notice it has a question mark at the end of it.

Lars777
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:28 AM
Its a very sad day in the body of Christ when christians on a christian forum board and Im guessing that 99 percent or so are in fact christians..... cannot agree on such a simple matter......here we have a thread on... what must I do to be saved..... and in reading the posts in this thread it seems I must do many things.... short of nailing myself to a cross...... and this just is sad.

Sometimes its more important to see what the Bible does not say.........example Paul states in Romans10:8-9 THAT IF THOU WILL CONFESS WITH THY MOUTH THE LORD JESUS AND SHALL BELIEVE IN HIS HEART THAT GOD HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD THOU SHALL BE SAVED. Um ya thats a PERIOD. But then he finishes it with.......FOR WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVES UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS AND WITH THY MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION. Ya its that simple.....one will need a lot of help to misunderstand these versus.

So is Paul a liar?.........is he telling an incomplete truth? Whats missing here.............................

Why did Paul NEVER MENTION repentence and or water baptism?...........do we dare say that Romans 10:8-9 are not the truth? Why are they left out??

Christ went to the cross long before we all were born this is a fact!!!! Hebrews states again and again and again and again ..........just read chapters 9-11 and you will see Jesus paid for ALL past present and future sins this is also a FACT !!!!! Repeated 4 times in 3 chapters.
So then I ask what are you repenting of when one comes to Christ .........did not Jesus make one sacrfice for ALL time?.....or did he not?.....................................

So then we come back to Romans........why is not any baptism or repentence mentioned in these versus???? If I confess these verses from my heart like they say....... am I not saved?

Do not reply with what you believe concerning water baptism and or repentence......only reply concerning these verses in Romans chapter 10 and tell me your thoughts on why Paul did
not pen them in here.........better yet read the whole chapter...... and then read it again......then come and share your thoughts.

crossnote
Apr 2nd 2010, 11:00 AM
Wow, 32 posts within one hour between thedee and losthorizon. 8:32 pm - 9:32 pm

Firstfruits
Apr 2nd 2010, 11:35 AM
How have you determined that the will of God is for mankind to do the law?

Paul declares the law to be the schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:24

The law can only bring knowledge of sin. The law cannot make one righteous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That is not what I am saying, only that Paul was telling them that it is not by the works of the law, but there is the will of God that are commanded to do, what is it?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2010, 11:41 AM
Wow, 32 posts within one hour between thedee and losthorizon. 8:32 pm - 9:32 pm
I noticed that the thread jumped five pages since yesterday. All this and neither side made any progress. How did the gospel message become so complicated? The gospel is divinely simple so that even a tender child can receive it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

kay-gee
Apr 2nd 2010, 11:45 AM
[QUOTE]He also told us to remember him by partaking of the bread and wine.... but a failure to do so does not damn a person soul.

Says who?

read John 6:53

all the best...

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2010, 11:45 AM
That is not what I am saying, only that Paul was telling them that it is not by the works of the law, but there is the will of God that are commanded to do, what is it?

Firstfruits
Love one another. Then you can be a witness for Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 2nd 2010, 11:57 AM
Love one another. Then you can be a witness for Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So is it love that shows that we are abiding in Christ?

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2010, 12:14 PM
So is it love that shows that we are abiding in Christ?

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Firstfruits
Is that not Christs first commandment?

If one loves the Lord they will love the brethren. Love of the brethren will lead to love for the lost. Is it not this love that drives a believer to pray with tears for the lost?

It is the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit that produces fruit not the efforts of man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 12:53 PM
Wrong. I am only stating what the scriptures teach. You are not taking the entire scripture as a whole and only using tunnel vision and looking at Mark 16:16... You also ignore Mark 16:17 where belief is reiterated.


Actually, Mark 16:17 does not mention belief and I have addressed Mark 16:16 in its entirety. Per Jesus Christ, the one who believes Jesus is the Christ and is baptized in water will be saved – the one who refuses to believe, whether baptized or not baptized will be damned. Anyone baptized without faith in Christ simply gets wet but the one with faith in Christ who is baptized will be saved per the Christ.

You have not defended your position that baptism is not essential to the gospel of Christ in light of the words of Jesus and Peter in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. These passages clearly show that belief, repentance and baptism all take place before one's sins are remitted by the blood of Christ and all three are essential to the gospel message. You can’t just go back to the truth taught in John 3:36 and ignore the truth taught elsewhere – you must consider and teach *the full council of God* and that full council includes faith, repentance and baptism – all three are works of faith that we do to receive salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” ~ Jesus Christ

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:16 PM
So is Paul a liar?.........is he telling an incomplete truth? Whats missing here.............................


Paul Is not a liar and what is missing is a failure on your part to exam *all the scriptures* regarding salvation. The truth taught in Romans10:8-9 must be viewed in light of what is taught in the entire NT. We can’t just cherry-pick those passages that support our sectarian biases and ignore the truth taught in other passages. Those who do this are the ones who contribute to the confusion we see in Christendom today.


Why did Paul NEVER MENTION repentence and or water baptism?...........do we dare say that Romans 10:8-9 are not the truth? Why are they left out??

Again, you zero in on one passage in the NT and ignore myriad other passages that teach a truth you do not want to hear. Actually, Paul does discuss baptism and he presents many truths related to God's holy ordinance. At his conversion AFTER he believed on the name of Jesus Christ and BEFORE his sins were remitted he was commanded to arise and *be baptized* calling on the Lord’s name to have his sins washed away by the blood of Christ. Paul gladly obeyed his Lord in baptism and his sins were washed away by the blood of Christ.
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.' (Act 22:16 ESV)Paul also clearly explains to us that baptism is a NT ordinance that signifies our dying and rising with Christ by faith. According to Paul it is through baptism that believers are *united with Christ* in his death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom_6:3-5). Baptism signifies our participation in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ just as it signifies the washing away of our sins by the blood of Christ (Act_22:16).
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
(Rom 6:3-5 ESV)

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in the final resurrection of the dead. ~ 1963 Baptist Faith and MessageWhat about you Lars - have you been buried in water - a burial of the old life and raised up out of the water *a resurrection* to walk in newness of life - a new creature in Christ Jesus?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:24 PM
Notice it has a question mark at the end of it.
And your answer is...

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:42 PM
Says who?

read John 6:53

all the best...

Read Mat 26:26... the purpose of the bread and wine is to "do in rememberence of me".

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:51 PM
Read Mat 26:26... the purpose of the bread and wine is to "do in rememberence of me".
And what if one chooses not to partake of the bread and wine? What happens to those who refuse to believe? What happens to those who refuse to repent? What happens to those who refuse to be immersed in water?
But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams. ~ 1 Samuel 15:22

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:52 PM
Actually, Mark 16:17 does not mention belief

You sure about that
"And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues" - Mark 16:17(nkjv)


You have not defended your position that baptism is not essential to the gospel of Christ in light of the words of Jesus and Peter in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. These passages clearly show that belief, repentance and baptism all take place before one's sins are remitted by the blood of Christ and all three are essential to the gospel message. You can’t just go back to the truth taught in John 3:36 and ignore the truth taught elsewhere – you must consider and teach *the full council of God* and that full council includes faith, repentance and baptism – all three are works of faith that we do to receive salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

It is a sad day when those who state that faith + water baptism saves. Christ blood is what cleanses us from our sins.... not water baptism.

"And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission" - Heb 9:22

Again, there are hundreds of verses which support that faith in Christ alone is what saves... You are using your tunnel vision to look at 2 verses (Mark 16:16;Acts 2:38). I clearly state in my prior post the purpose of water baptism. I invite you to read post #162 again. Also, read post #172 if you have not already done so by another poster.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:53 PM
Paul Is not a liar and what is missing is a failure on your part to exam *all the scriptures* regarding salvation. The truth taught in Romans10:8-9 must be viewed in light of what is taught in the entire NT. We can’t just cherry-pick those passages that support our sectarian biases and ignore the truth taught in other passages. Those who do this are the ones who contribute to the confusion we see in Christendom today.

But this is exactly what you are doing with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. Examine yourself.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:55 PM
And your answer is...

If you havn't figured it out by now that I said water baptism is not necessary for salvation but only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is then I don't know what you have been reading.

"what must I do to be saved? So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:30,31

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:03 PM
And what if one chooses not to partake of the bread and wine? What happens to those who refuse to believe? What happens to those who refuse to repent? What happens to those who refuse to be immersed in water?

Why would a true believer in Jesus Christ refuse to remember him? That is just silly.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:20 PM
It is a sad day when those who state that faith + water baptism saves. Christ blood is what cleanses us from our sins.... not water baptism.


Straw-man my friend - no one is saying water washes away sin (it doesn't) - it has been reiterated enough that the blood of Christ alone removes sins. If you don't understand that by now you are beyond teaching.


Again, there are hundreds of verses which support that faith in Christ alone is what saves...
If we are saved by "faith alone" as you insist then the onus is yours to provide Scriptural proof. Remember, you can't sweep passages like Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 under the carpet as you have repeatedly done already. You must address all scripture regarding salvation. The only passage in the NT that mentions "faith only" that I am aware of says we are not saved/justified by faith only. Abraham is our examples and "...by faith....Abraham obeyed...
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. ~ James 2:21-25

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:26 PM
But this is exactly what you are doing with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. Examine yourself.
But you are mistaken - I look at all Scripture regarding salvation and Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 are part of all Scripture and those passages have always taught the truth as revealed by God and the truth taught in those 2 passages does not contradict any other passage in the NT. Do you think Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 teaches error? Was Jesus and Peter mistaken or is it a biblical fact that belief and baptism precede remission of sins? You may be confusing yourself.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:29 PM
Why would a true believer in Jesus Christ refuse to remember him? That is just silly.

And why would a "true believer" refuse to be baptized "for the remission of sins"? Is that also silly or is it sad that many refuse to be baptized because some folks have watered down (no pun) the essential nature of baptism as presented in the gospel of Christ. Is baptism essential to the gospel message in your theology?
"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins..." ~ Peter (Acts 2:38)

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:34 PM
Straw-man my friend - no one is saying water washes away sin (it doesn't) - it has been reiterated enough that the blood of Christ alone removes sins. If you don't understand that by now you are beyond teaching.

I sense frustration on your part... usually when those who use the "straw man" argument.... anyways
You continually say before your sins are remitted you are baptized in water first. I am just going by what you are saying. Maybe you are confused?


If we are saved by "faith alone" as you insist then the onus is yours to provide Scriptural proof. Remember, you can't sweep passages like Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 under the carpet as you have repeatedly done already. You must address all scripture regarding salvation. The only passage in the NT that mentions "faith only" that I am aware of says we are not saved/justified by faith only. Abraham is our examples and "...by faith....Abraham obeyed...

You want scripture... here we go.
Acts 16:30,31
Acts 2:21
Romans 1:16
Romans 10:9
Galations 3:11
John 3:16
Galations 3:24
Hebrews 10:38

etc etc... I could go on and on

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:37 PM
If you havn't figured it out by now that I said water baptism is not necessary for salvation but only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is then I don't know what you have been reading.

"what must I do to be saved? So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:30,31
You miss the mark once again because you refuse to consider the *full council of God* regarding salvation. And that full council includes repentance and baptism "for the forgiveness of your sins".
"Brothers, what shall we do [to be saved]?" Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins... (Acts 2:38).Is it your position that one will be saved without repenting of their sins?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:39 PM
But you are mistaken - I look at all Scripture regarding salvation and Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 are part of all Scripture and those passages have always taught the truth as revealed by God and the truth taught in those 2 passages does not contradict any other passage in the NT. Do you think Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 teaches error? Was Jesus and Peter mistaken or is it a biblical fact that belief and baptism precede remission of sins? You may be confusing yourself.

I feel like I am debating a broken record.... keeps repeating itself in a loop. I have went though this folds of times in this post alone. Look back.


Do you think Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 teaches error?

What kind of silly comment is this?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:44 PM
And why would a "true believer" refuse to be baptized "for the remission of sins"? Is that also silly or is it sad that many refuse to be baptized

Who is refusing to be baptized in water? Believers get baptized in water after they are saved. Read post #162 again on the purpose of water baptism.


Is baptism essential to the gospel message in your theology?

Oh good grief. How many times you going to ask this. BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. Read post #162 on the purpose of water baptism. All true believers are baptized by the Spirit upon belief.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:44 PM
I sense frustration on your part...


The only frustration I have is with those who continue to use straw-men to support an argument that cannot be sustained with scriptural support. I find those who resort to straw-men to be those who have run out of ammunition and must resort to firing blanks. You have not addressed the truth taught in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 - can you? Do you still insist the baptism mentioned in Mark 16 is not water baptism? Can one be saved without repenting of his/her sins?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:48 PM
I feel like I am debating a broken record.... keeps repeating itself in a loop.
The truth is repeated because you have failed to address the truth taught in the NT.


What kind of silly comment is this?
Not silly at all - you appear to think Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 teach error? Let me ask again - does Jesus clearly teach that both belief and baptism come before one will be saved? Does Peter teach that belief, repentance and baptism are to take place before the remission of sins?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:51 PM
You miss the mark once again because you refuse to consider the *full council of God* regarding salvation. And that full council includes repentance and baptism "for the forgiveness of your sins".
"Brothers, what shall we do [to be saved]?" Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins... (Acts 2:38).Is it your position that one will be saved without repenting of their sins?

It is interesting when you quote Acts 2:37 you are adding "to be saved". Here is your quote

"Brothers, what shall we do [to be saved]?" Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins... (Acts 2:38).

Here is what the scripture actually says:
"Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins... (Acts 2:38).

If you just read Acts 2:38 you can come to believe that being baptized in water is necessary for the forgivemess of sins. But if we look at all scripture that is not the case:

"To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." - Acts 10:43
"to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." - Acts 26:18
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" - Eph 1:7
"in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins." - Col 1:14
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" - 1 John 1:9

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:54 PM
Who is refusing to be baptized in water? Believers get baptized in water after they are saved.
But you once again contradict the words of Jesus. Jesus never said "he who believes and is saved shall be baptized" - did He? Read His words carefully - words do mean something...
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." ~ Jesus ChristWhy do you deny the truth and change God's word?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:57 PM
It is interesting when you quote Acts 2:37 you are adding "to be saved".

The question implies "what shall we do to be saved?" Peter is not giving a suggestion to repent and be baptized if you feel like it. Both repentance and baptism are required. You didn't answer the question - can one be saved without repenting? You're up...

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:57 PM
The only frustration I have is with those who continue to use straw-men to support an argument that cannot be sustained with scriptural support. I find those who resort to straw-men to be those who have run out of ammunition and must resort to firing blanks. You have not addressed the truth taught in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 - can you? Do you still insist the baptism mentioned in Mark 16 is not water baptism? Can one be saved without repenting of his/her sins?

Why would a true believer not recoginzie her or her own sins? If they don't then are they even a true believer in Christ? Surely if they don't recongnize their own sins then the Holy Spirit has not indwelt in them.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:03 PM
does Jesus clearly teach that both belief and baptism come before one will be saved?

No, upon belief the Holy Spirit will fall up those who truly believe as in Acts 10:44, Acts 11:15,16 etc... That is clarified throughout scripture.


Does Peter teach that belief, repentance and baptism are to take place before the remission of sins?
No, it is clarified later on what was taught.
"To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." - Acts 10:43
"to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." - Acts 26:18
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" - Eph 1:7
"in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins." - Col 1:14
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" - 1 John 1:9

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:04 PM
But you once again contradict the words of Jesus. Jesus never said "he who believes and is saved shall be baptized" - did He? Read His words carefully - words do mean something...
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." ~ Jesus ChristWhy do you deny the truth and change God's word?

and again in John 3:16 it is clarified throughout scripture what it is meant. Keep going back to that one verse.

BroRog
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:25 PM
But you once again contradict the words of Jesus. Jesus never said "he who believes and is saved shall be baptized" - did He? Read His words carefully - words do mean something...
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." ~ Jesus ChristWhy do you deny the truth and change God's word?

We aren't changing God's word. But we are coming to understand what it means. When Peter called for repentance and baptism, his audience understood that baptism was the first step in becoming someone's disciple. Baptism doesn't mean that today. The ceremony of baptism today, has no resemblence to the baptism of the first century. Peter wouldn't recognize it.

watchinginawe
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:12 PM
Its a very sad day in the body of Christ when christians on a christian forum board and Im guessing that 99 percent or so are in fact christians..... cannot agree on such a simple matter......here we have a thread on... what must I do to be saved..... and in reading the posts in this thread it seems I must do many things.... short of nailing myself to a cross...... and this just is sad.The problem kind of makes one wish for a standardized check off list or something, so that way we can all know if we graduate with the class and that we can then nail that shingle of salvation to the wall. Anytime that we have a doubt we could just go look at the document that says we have met all the requirements. (I think I will put in here that the preceeding is sarcasm since some might think I am being serious.)

:hmm: I think the potential of deception is what drives this madness. Surely we can know and answer beyond the shadow of a doubt the question of "what must I do to be saved?". Maybe the question might better be asked as "How can I know that I am saved?". If there isn't much of a difference between the two answers then we aren't leaving much room for God's involvement beyond the empty tomb IMO.

I thought to write more about the above but I am going to leave it at that.

Regarding your point about repentance though, I disagree.


Sometimes its more important to see what the Bible does not say.........example Paul states in Romans10:8-9 THAT IF THOU WILL CONFESS WITH THY MOUTH THE LORD JESUS AND SHALL BELIEVE IN HIS HEART THAT GOD HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD THOU SHALL BE SAVED. Um ya thats a PERIOD. But then he finishes it with.......FOR WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVES UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS AND WITH THY MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION. Ya its that simple.....one will need a lot of help to misunderstand these versus.

So is Paul a liar?.........is he telling an incomplete truth? Whats missing here.............................

Why did Paul NEVER MENTION repentence and or water baptism?...........do we dare say that Romans 10:8-9 are not the truth? Why are they left out??Repentance brings forth all of the above. Repentance is what matches up the needs of the heart to belief and the belief of the heart to the confession of the mouth. Consider Acts 19:4-5


Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Repentance preceeds belief, repentance gives us a reason to believe. The Gospel of Mark starts like this (Mark 1:1-5):


The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. Repentance prepares the way of the Lord. Repentance is the "beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ", making Jesus' purpose real to those who believe.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:17 PM
Is that not Christs first commandment?

If one loves the Lord they will love the brethren. Love of the brethren will lead to love for the lost. Is it not this love that drives a believer to pray with tears for the lost?

It is the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit that produces fruit not the efforts of man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

According to the following it is what shows that we are his disciples.

Jn 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 06:32 PM
We aren't changing God's word. But we are coming to understand what it means. When Peter called for repentance and baptism, his audience understood that baptism was the first step in becoming someone's disciple. Baptism doesn't mean that today. The ceremony of baptism today, has no resemblence to the baptism of the first century. Peter wouldn't recognize it.
Oh come on Rog – get real. The baptism commanded by Jesus in His commission is the same baptism practiced today. The gospel of Christ, including the command to be baptized was to be taken to the entire world *until He comes again*. The only reason baptism is not recognized in some circles of Christendom today is because man has changed the meaning and purpose of baptism to fit his sectarian bias and this change was completely unauthorized by our Creator.

Those who practice immersion in water “for the remission of sins” in God’s name as noted in Acts 2:38 – a baptism administered to those who believe and repent are loyal to the command of Jesus to “go…teach…baptize”. The ordinance of baptism is recognized today just as it was in the apostolic era by those who remain true to NT teaching. For those who change God’s word – shame on them.
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat 28:18-20 KJV)

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 06:41 PM
No, upon belief the Holy Spirit will fall up those who truly believe as in Acts 10:44, Acts 11:15,16 etc... That is clarified throughout scripture.

Then it is your position that Jesus was mistaken when He said to believe and be baptized and you shall be saved. Why did He include baptism before one is saved - was He confused or do you remain confused. I will go with the words of Jesus and recognize that you remain much confused.


No, it is clarified later on what was taught.

You are wrong again. Peter clearly taught that belief, repentance and baptism are to take place before the remission of sins? This is an undeniable truth -
"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins... (Acts 2:38).
It can't be any clearer unless one repeatedly stumbles over a sectarian bias.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 06:51 PM
Why would a true believer not recoginzie her or her own sins? If they don't then are they even a true believer in Christ? Surely if they don't recongnize their own sins then the Holy Spirit has not indwelt in them.
You didn't answer my 'yes or no' question - can one be saved without repenting of his/her sins according to Jesus Christ?


again in John 3:16 it is clarified throughout scripture what it is meant. Keep going back to that one verse.

Does John 3:16 say anything about repentance. Are you sure all one must do to be saved is believe? Do the demons believe - are they saved? Have you found your proof-text to "prove" we are saved by "faith alone"?
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” ~ Jesus Christ

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 06:52 PM
Then it is your position that Jesus was mistaken when He said to believe and be baptized and you shall be saved. Why did He include baptism before one is saved - was He confused or do you remain confused. I will go with the words of Jesus and recognize that you remain much confused.

I love it. You keep telling me what my position is and you are trying to get me to call Jesus a lyer. What a joke.

Of course Jesus was not mistaken... but you are mistaken on what saves a person soul. You are taking 2 verses in the entire bible and using those to overwrite everything else without rightly dividing the word of truth. You seem to be saying that we must be Spirtually Baptized and also Water Baptized in order to be saved... Are you not?

Let me guess. When you read John 3:5 you say that "born of water" is water baptism?


You are wrong again. Peter clearly taught that belief, repentance and baptism are to take place before the remission of sins? This is an undeniable truth -

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins... (Acts 2:38).

It can't be any clearer unless one repeatedly stumbles over a sectarian bias.

Again, you revert back to 1 of your 2 verses to support your opinion while at the same time ignoring verses like these:

"To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." - Acts 10:43
"to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." - Acts 26:18
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" - Eph 1:7
"in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins." - Col 1:14
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" - 1 John 1:9

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 06:55 PM
Does John 3:16 say anything about repentance. Are you sure all one must do to be saved is believe? Do the demons believe - are they saved? Have you found your proof-text to "prove" we are saved by "faith alone"?

The demons do believe but is there love and is the gospel for man or for demons or both?
"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment." - 1 John 3:23

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:07 PM
I love it. You keep telling me what my position is and you are trying to get me to call Jesus a lyer. What a joke.


Your position is the joke - so clarify it. Did Jesus say belief and baptism precede "shall be saved" in Mark 16 or did Jesus say believe and you will be saved and then if you have time get baptized?


You seem to be saying that we must be Spirtually Baptized and also Water Baptized in order to be saved... Are you not?


I am saying the new birth - the birth from above is *one birth* that consists of being born (1) of the water and (2) of the Spirit. "Water" means water and "Spirit" means Spirit. When the penitent believer is immersed in water s/he experiences the "washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). Then the "new creation" in Christ enters into the kingdom of God.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:5 KJV)

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:15 PM
The demons do believe but is there love and is the gospel for man or for demons or both?


You miss the point - one must do more than demonstrate mental assent as to who Jesus is in order to be saved. The demons believe but according to the NT one must also "obey from the heart" the gospel of Christ and that gospel includes believing, repenting and being baptized "for the remission of sins". Easy concept but so misunderstood.

Do you believe one must obey from the heart the teaching presented in the gospel in order to be saved? Have you found your proof-text for faith only yet? Must one repent in order to be saved (3rd request)? Does John 3:16 mention repentance (2nd request)?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:24 PM
Your position is the joke - so clarify it. Did Jesus say belief and baptism precede "shall be saved" in Mark 16 or did Jesus say believe and you will be saved and then if you have time get baptized?

So you are saying the position of being saved by faith alone is a joke? wow... I would be careful on what you say.

If someone came and ask me "what do I need to do to be saved" I would reply as the scriptures replied to when Paul was asked the very same question:
"So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:31

How would you reply to the question?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:29 PM
Do you believe one must obey from the heart the teaching presented in the gospel in order to be saved?

The person can believe in Christ but they don't have to believe anything the bible says.... I am joking.... get serious.

Of Course they have to believe what the bible says.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:31 PM
losthorizon -

Let me ask you a simple question. Is it possible to go to heaven without being baptized in water

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:39 PM
So you are saying the position of being saved by faith alone is a joke?


The question continues to beg - if we are saved by "faith alone" why did Jesus add "believe and be baptized"? Was he mistaken?

You still haven't answered my questions - have you found your proof-text for "faith only" yet? Must one repent in order to be saved? Does John 3:16 mention repentance?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:40 PM
I am saying the new birth - the birth from above is *one birth* that consists of being born (1) of the water and (2) of the Spirit. "Water" means water and "Spirit" means Spirit. When the penitent believer is immersed in water s/he experiences the "washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). Then the "new creation" in Christ enters into the kingdom of God.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:5 KJV)

So John 3:5 is water baptism?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:42 PM
Must one repent in order to be saved? Does John 3:16 mention repentance?

Have you ever seen a true believer not repent of their sins and recognize their sins?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:48 PM
losthorizon -

Let me ask you a simple question. Is it possible to go to heaven without being baptized in water
I have answered twice already – one more time, I am not authorized by God to determine who does and who does not go to heaven – only God who alone knows the hearts of men can make that call. I do know what the gospel of Christ teaches and it teaches faith, repentance and baptism for the remission of sins. Why would one refuse to be baptized? I would think all who are to please God would obey what is in the Book and not speculate on the eternal destiny of those who wish to circumvent God's revelation.

Questions for you – is baptism commanded by Jesus Christ? If God commands baptism does it become essential to His plan the moment He commands it? Does God require repentance?

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 07:54 PM
So John 3:5 is water baptism?
As stated - "water" means water and "Spirit" means Spirit. What else would "water" mean? Baptism in water is "the visible door of entrance into the kingdom of God, the reality being the sole work of the Holy Ghost..."
John 3:5
of water and of the Spirit — A twofold explanation of the “new birth,” so startling to Nicodemus. To a Jewish ecclesiastic, so familiar with the symbolical application of water, in every variety of way and form of expression, this language was fitted to show that the thing intended was no other than a thorough spiritual purification by the operation of the Holy Ghost. Indeed, element of water and operation of the Spirit are brought together in a glorious evangelical prediction of Ezekiel (Eze_36:25-27), which Nicodemus might have been reminded of had such spiritualities not been almost lost in the reigning formalism. Already had the symbol of water been embodied in an initiatory ordinance, in the baptism of the Jewish expectants of Messiah by the Baptist, not to speak of the baptism of Gentile proselytes before that; and in the Christian Church it was soon to become the great visible door of entrance into “the kingdom of God,” the reality being the sole work of the Holy Ghost (Tit_3:5). ~ A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:00 PM
Have you ever seen a true believer not repent of their sins and recognize their sins?
Lol - you just cannot answer that question - why? I have seen those who confess the name of Christ who appear to have not repented of their sins. Again - I do not know their heart - only God makes that judgment. If repentance is a requirement for salvation (and it is) why is repentance not mentioned in John 3:16? Are your sure one is saved by "belief only" or does God also require one to repent? Your theology appears to be non-consistent - yes?

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:01 PM
As stated - "water" means water and "Spirit" means Spirit. What else would "water" mean? Baptism in water is "the visible door of entrance into the kingdom of God, the reality being the sole work of the Holy Ghost..."
John 3:5
of water and of the Spirit — A twofold explanation of the “new birth,” so startling to Nicodemus. To a Jewish ecclesiastic, so familiar with the symbolical application of water, in every variety of way and form of expression, this language was fitted to show that the thing intended was no other than a thorough spiritual purification by the operation of the Holy Ghost. Indeed, element of water and operation of the Spirit are brought together in a glorious evangelical prediction of Ezekiel (Eze_36:25-27), which Nicodemus might have been reminded of had such spiritualities not been almost lost in the reigning formalism. Already had the symbol of water been embodied in an initiatory ordinance, in the baptism of the Jewish expectants of Messiah by the Baptist, not to speak of the baptism of Gentile proselytes before that; and in the Christian Church it was soon to become the great visible door of entrance into “the kingdom of God,” the reality being the sole work of the Holy Ghost (Tit_3:5). ~ A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

In John 3:5 is not water a description of the Spirit. Read John 7:37-39

kay-gee
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:03 PM
Why would a true believer in Jesus Christ refuse to remember him? That is just silly.

Simple...Those who refuse baptism and the Lords supper are not true believers. Jesus said "this DO." That is a command.

True disciples do what He says to do. John 8:31, John 14:15

all the best...

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:09 PM
Lol - you just cannot answer that question - why? I have seen those who confess the name of Christ who appear to have not repented of their sins. Again - I do not know their heart - only God makes that judgment. If repentance is a requirement for salvation (and it is) why is repentance not mentioned in John 3:16? Are your sure one is saved by "belief only" or does God also require one to repent? Your theology appears to be non-consistent - yes?

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" - Romans 1:16
For a description on what the gospel is read 1 Cor 15.

When I believe the gospel I am repenting. Because the gospel—what does it say to me? It tells me I am a sinner, tells me I am hopeless, unworthy, a wretch—that there is nothing I can do, I cannot please God, I cannot earn eternal life, salvation is a gift of God. It’s not by works of righteousness that we’ve done, but by his mercy he saves us. So when I turn to Christ, I am repenting. And when I come to Him and believe in Him, He does the work in my heart. I am born of the spirit of God, I am born again, I become a new creature in Christ Jesus, old things have passed away, all things are become new and the gospel is such good news!

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:12 PM
In John 3:5 is not water a description of the Spirit. Read John 7:37-39
John 3:5 distinguished between the two - (1) water (2) the Spirit. They are not one and the same in this passage. Again - water means water and Spirit means Spirit. Were Gentile proselytes to Judaism required to be immersed in water before they were accepted by the Jewish community? Has baptism in water always been the initiatory rite of the Christian Church as one is baptized *into union* with Christ Jesus...
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27 ESV)

kay-gee
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:13 PM
[QUOTE]I feel like I am debating a broken record.... keeps repeating itself in a loop.

Well, no wonder. I think it is because of your refusal to deal with the scripture given you. Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 been part of the Bible for 2000 years. Your best efforts to avoid them don't make them any less a reality.

I myself, sometimes want to learn a phrase of music, and I will put it on a loop. Eventually, a light goes on and it gets through!

praying for you!

all the best...

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:16 PM
John 3:5 distinguished between the two - (1) water (2) the Spirit. They are not one and the same in this passage. Again - water means water and Spirit means Spirit. Were Gentile proselytes to Judaism required to be immersed in water before they were accepted by the Jewish community? Has baptism in water always been the initiatory rite of the Christian Church as one is baptized *into union* with Christ Jesus...
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27 ESV)

"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." - John 7:37-39

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:19 PM
When I believe the gospel I am repenting.
But belief and repentance are two different acts of obedience - they are not one and the same. John 3:16 does not mention repentance or baptism, yet both repentance and baptism are required in the gospel of Christ. You say John 3:16 says it all regarding salvation but you remain in error. You must teach the full council of God and that full council includes belief, repentance and baptism. You need to re-think - your sectarianism is causing you to miss the mark my friend.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:21 PM
But belief and repentance are two different acts of obedience - they are not one and the same. John 3:16 does not mention repentance or baptism, yet both repentance and baptism are required in the gospel of Christ. You say John 3:16 says it all regarding salvation but you remain in error. You must teach the full council of God and that full council includes belief, repentance and baptism. You need to re-think - your sectarianism is causing you to miss the mark my friend.

Paul I guess did not give the full story when he was asked what to do to be saved and he replied:
"So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:31

I am headed out and can't respond for awhile.... will respond later.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:23 PM
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." - John 7:37-39
The passage in John 7 teaches a great truth but it does not negate water baptism as taught in the new birth of John 3:5. Water still means water and Spirit still means Spirit regardless of your spinning and digging...
First Rule of Holes: when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

thedee
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:26 PM
The passage in John 7 teaches a great truth but it does not negate water baptism as taught in the new birth of John 3:5. Water still means water and Spirit still means Spirit regardless of your spinning and digging...
First Rule of Holes: when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

Explain to me 1 John 5:6-8.... I will look at your answer later.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:29 PM
Paul I guess did not give the full story when he was asked what to do to be saved and he replied:
"So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." - Acts 16:31

I am headed out and can't respond for awhile.... will respond later.
Paul gave the "full story" when you read *everything* he said regarding baptism including Romans 6:3-5 where he clearly explains that baptism signifies our dying and rising with Christ by faith. Do you believe the believer is united with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection when he is baptized in water? Can one be saved and not be united with Christ? In your theology how does one become united with Christ (scriptures please)?

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:34 PM
Jesus said it is finished. Jesus did all that is necessary to save souls. Jesus paid the price demanded by the Father in full.

Water baptism dose not have any salvitic merit. Water baptism is a work. Works do not save. Grace saves. Christs work on Calvary is all the work necesary to save.

Rome teaches water baptism for salvation. Rome teaches communion as a sacrament necessary for salvation. Garce is not portioned out through baptism or communion.

Salvation is by believing in the finished work of Christ. To attempt to add water baptism is to declare the work of Christ all His suffering and His shed blood lacking the sufficiency needed to save souls.

Grace is given in full measure when one believes Christ for salvation. One receives a full measure of righteousness when one receives Christ as Saviour.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:38 PM
Explain to me 1 John 5:6-8.... I will look at your answer later.
The short explanation: the passage is a reference to the public ministry of Jesus – (1) “water” the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan as His ministry begins and (2) “blood” a reference to his death on the cross as He atoned for our sins as His public ministry ended.

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 08:47 PM
Water baptism dose not have any salvitic merit. Water baptism is a work.


You are a day late and a dollar short my friend. Your straw-man has been defeated already. No one is saying water washes away sins (it doesn't). We are saved finally and completely by the blood of Christ. Baptism is the answer of a good conscious toward God as it points us to the resurrection of Christ - as such baptism is essential to the gospel of grace. Would you not agree?
eight souls were saved by water...

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...1 Pet 3:21

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2010, 09:17 PM
You are a day late and a dollar short my friend. Your straw-man has been defeated already. No one is saying water washes away sins (it doesn't). We are saved finally and completely by the blood of Christ. Baptism is the answer of a good conscious toward God as it points us to the resurrection of Christ - as such baptism is essential to the gospel of grace. Would you not agree?
eight souls were saved by water...

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...1 Pet 3:21
Salvation is not a progressive event. We are saved completly and eternally the moment we believe and receive Christ. Jesus baptises us with the Holy Spirit and we are transformed from dead toward God to living eternally in Christ.

Any soul depending on water baptism for salvation is in great peril. Christ finished all the work necessary for salvation. Grace is eternal and all sufficient. No one can add to what Christ has done. Not one iota can be added to His work on Calvary.

Works of wood hay and stubble will perish in the fire.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

losthorizon
Apr 2nd 2010, 10:06 PM
Salvation is not a progressive event. We are saved completly and eternally the moment we believe and receive Christ.


Actually, you are mistaken on many points Roger. One is saved when s/he obeys from the heart the gospel of Jesus Christ. And the gospel message clearly tells us we must believe, repent and be baptized in water. After conversion we must “walk in the light and he is in the light.” Why – because it is possible for a righteous man (one who has been born again) to turn from his righteousness, commit sin, fail to repent of those sins and be eternally lost.
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)
Any soul depending on water baptism for salvation is in great peril. Christ finished all the work necessary for salvation. Grace is eternal and all sufficient. No one can add to what Christ has done. Not one iota can be added to His work on Calvary.

You completely misunderstand the ordinance of baptism. Baptism is God’s work – instituted and commanded by God. It does not add to the work of Christ on the cross at all. It is an act of obedience that one must do to receive God’s grace just as one must believe and repent. It is foolishness to teach that the one who obeys the command of God to be immersed in water is in danger of eternal condemnation because he has obeyed God’s command. You are very confused.

Does your theology really teach this nonsense? If it does you need to discard your dogma and come back to the truth. The truth cannot be changed – Jesus is clear, “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” No where does Holy Writ say, “he who obeys God’s command to be baptized in water is adding to the work of Christ and he will be damned eternally.” Are we on the same page?

kay-gee
Apr 3rd 2010, 01:43 AM
Baptism does have salvic merit, as through baptism, sins are remitted. Acts 2:38. Is not having sins remitted equal to salvation? Can one still be in sin and be saved? How long will you remain fighting scripture?!



Rome teaches water baptism for salvation. Rome teaches communion as a sacrament necessary for salvation. Garce is not portioned out through baptism or communion.

Jesus taught the importance of Lords supper and baptism long before the Roman church was on the scene. Matt 3:15, John 6:53

all the best...

thedee
Apr 3rd 2010, 01:45 PM
Paul gave the "full story" when you read *everything* he said regarding baptism including Romans 6:3-5 where he clearly explains that baptism signifies our dying and rising with Christ by faith. Do you believe the believer is united with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection when he is baptized in water? Can one be saved and not be united with Christ? In your theology how does one become united with Christ (scriptures please)?

I think there might be a confusion here. I don't know if you think I am totally against water baptism... which I am not.

Why should we be baptized...
Spiritual baptism is the Christian's identification with Christ (Colossians 2:12). This is why we should submit to water baptism.

Romans 6:3-5 teaches us that it is literally a picture of your death, burial and resurrection with Christ. It is your first act of obedience to God after salvation. WHY be baptized? Consider the following:
1. Scriptural baptism pleases the Lord. When Jesus was baptized, God the Father said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17). When we follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ we certainly please the Father.
2. Scripturaly baptism is a testimony to the world. Jesus said, "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32). Our baptism is a public testimony of our faith in the Lord Jesus: Christ, and the way in which we identify ourselves with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

We are not saved by baptism, but by faith in Jesus Christ and His blood..."cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).
Baptism is the outward symbol of what has already transpired in the heart of the one who has trusted the Lord Jesus Christ for full salvation.

Firstfruits
Apr 3rd 2010, 02:10 PM
With regards to the following scripture, what did Philip preach/teach to the eunoch that he would request to be baptized?

Acts 8:35-38
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 3rd 2010, 02:27 PM
Actually, you are mistaken on many points Roger. One is saved when s/he obeys from the heart the gospel of Jesus Christ. And the gospel message clearly tells us we must believe, repent and be baptized in water. After conversion we must “walk in the light and he is in the light.” Why – because it is possible for a righteous man (one who has been born again) to turn from his righteousness, commit sin, fail to repent of those sins and be eternally lost.
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)
Paul in the scripture defines the gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-6 ...I declare unto you the gospel...by which ye also are saved...unless you have believed in vain.

It is a perversion of the gospel to make it something other than salvation by grace through faith. Those who have received cannot receive and remain unchanged by the gospel. The gospel is th egood news that Christ has come, He has died and He has risen again from the dead according to the scriptures. No water, no works only Christ.


You completely misunderstand the ordinance of baptism. Baptism is God’s work – instituted and commanded by God. It does not add to the work of Christ on the cross at all. It is an act of obedience that one must do to receive God’s grace just as one must believe and repent. It is foolishness to teach that the one who obeys the command of God to be immersed in water is in danger of eternal condemnation because he has obeyed God’s command. You are very confused.

Does your theology really teach this nonsense? If it does you need to discard your dogma and come back to the truth. The truth cannot be changed – Jesus is clear, “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” No where does Holy Writ say, “he who obeys God’s command to be baptized in water is adding to the work of Christ and he will be damned eternally.” Are we on the same page?
Your understanding of water baptism is not well grounded in the scriptures. The only baptism to which Jesus attributes salvitic merit is Holy Spirit baptism. Holy Spirit baptism is only administered by Jesus Christ and no man can baptise with the Holy Spirit. To make water baptism of equal merit to the Holy Spirit baptism is to exibit a lack of scriptural understanding of the two baptisms.

The danger here is that church liturgy is being mingled with biblical doctrine. Water baptism for believers and the Lords supper or communion are liturgical ordinances with in the church. They are not a means by which grace is imparted to believers. Grace is imparted solely by faith, the faith received from hearing the word of God.

All one needs to know to be saved in contained in John 3:16.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 3rd 2010, 02:39 PM
Paul in the scripture defines the gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-6 ...I declare unto you the gospel...by which ye also are saved...unless you have believed in vain.

It is a perversion of the gospel to make it something other than salvation by grace through faith. Those who have received cannot receive and remain unchanged by the gospel. The gospel is th egood news that Christ has come, He has died and He has risen again from the dead according to the scriptures. No water, no works only Christ.

Your understanding of water baptism is not well grounded in the scriptures. The only baptism to which Jesus attributes salvitic merit is Holy Spirit baptism. Holy Spirit baptism is only administered by Jesus Christ and no man can baptise with the Holy Spirit. To make water baptism of equal merit to the Holy Spirit baptism is to exibit a lack of scriptural understanding of the two baptisms.

The danger here is that church liturgy is being mingled with biblical doctrine. Water baptism for believers and the Lords supper or communion are liturgical ordinances with in the church. They are not a means by which grace is imparted to believers. Grace is imparted solely by faith, the faith received from hearing the word of God.

All one needs to know to be saved in contained in John 3:16.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are there two Holy Spirits as Jesus said baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit?

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 3rd 2010, 02:45 PM
I think there might be a confusion here. I don't know if you think I am totally against water baptism... which I am not.

<snip>

We are not saved by baptism, but by faith in Jesus Christ and His blood..."cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).
Baptism is the outward symbol of what has already transpired in the heart of the one who has trusted the Lord Jesus Christ for full salvation.


Again – no one claims that baptism saves separate and apart from faith in the cleaning blood of Christ – it doesn’t. Baptism – like belief and repentance – is a work of faith instituted and commanded by God. It is an act of obedience “from the heart” done to receive His grace.

It is not that I think you are “against water baptism” – the problem you struggle with is a sectarian bias that forces you to completely misunderstand the essential nature of God’s ordinance in His plan to redeem His fallen creation. Baptism is from God and baptism is a sign of our spiritual cleansing. The ordinance should never be separated from that to which it signifies (salvation through the blood of Christ) but the thing signified should never be expected without the sign (a burial in water) - a sign designed and put in place by God. Would you agree? The NT does not know of an un-baptized Christian.
One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism…

Firstfruits
Apr 3rd 2010, 03:08 PM
There is a purpose for baptism according to the following scripture.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus has his purpose.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Firsftruits

losthorizon
Apr 3rd 2010, 03:19 PM
It is a perversion of the gospel to make it something other than salvation by grace through faith. Those who have received cannot receive and remain unchanged by the gospel. The gospel is th egood news that Christ has come, He has died and He has risen again from the dead according to the scriptures. No water, no works only Christ.



Is it really a perversion to obey the Lord in baptism? Are you really that confused on this subject? No one denies the truth that redemption is a gift of God's grace that comes trough faith but God’s grace is received through faith and obedience…”by faith…Abraham obeyed…” Your assertion that when one obeys the Lord’s command to be baptized in water s/he is adding to the work of Christ is an absurdity. How are we condemned by God for obeying God? Where is your logic?


Your understanding of water baptism is not well grounded in the scriptures.

But you are mistaken – I have documented my understanding of baptism via God’s word - what more do you require? Jesus clearly states belief and baptism both precede salvation (Mark 16:16). This is a fact that you repeatedly run away from. Why? Peter clearly states belief, repentance and baptism come before one’s sins are remitted (Acts 2:38) yet you will not address this truth. Why? These passages are “well grounded in the scriptures” are they not? You misrepresent me, sir.


All one needs to know to be saved in contained in John 3:16.

Again we see your folly – the truth taught in John 3:16 does not mention repentance yet you have already admitted that one cannot be saved without repentance. Listen to the words of our Lord…
"I tell you…but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” John 3:16 does not include the command to repent just as it does not include the command to be baptized in water but water baptism is required before one will be saved. Again – listen to the words of our Lord…
”he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” You remain very confused. What version of the Bible do you use that says, “he who believes and is not baptized shall be saved’? You fail once again to recognize the full council of God and that full council clearly includes our obligation to God to believe, repent and be baptized “for the remission of sins.” You need to re-think your sectarian bias.

thedee
Apr 3rd 2010, 04:25 PM
Jesus clearly states belief and baptism both precede salvation (Mark 16:16). This is a fact that you repeatedly run away from. Why? Peter clearly states belief, repentance and baptism come before one’s sins are remitted (Acts 2:38) yet you will not address this truth. Why? These passages are “well grounded in the scriptures” are they not? You misrepresent me, sir.

Belief and baptism precede salvation? Oh please.

When we hear the word and believe we are saved.
"Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it" - Acts 28:28... Water Baptism is what we do after we are saved.

Salvation is given when we believe.... period.
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" - Romans 1:16
"For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" - Romans 10:10
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" - Eph 1:3
"and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." - 2 Tim 3:5
"who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." - 1 Peter 1:5

Water Baptism is the outward symbol of what has already transpired in the heart of the one who has trusted the Lord Jesus Christ for full salvation.

So in Acts 2:37 they believed and Acts 2:38 they were baptized.

Notice in Acts 8 when it was asked "What hinders me from being baptized?"... Philip replied with "If you believe with all your heart, you may."
He did not say "you must" but "you may".
My point is here is that I don't see a sense of urgency from Philip.

If water baptism precedes salvation then Paul made a dumb statement:
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect." - 1 Cor 1:17
The gospel is defined in 1 Cor 15.

The Bible teaches that water baptism follows shortly after spiritual baptism (the new birth).
Notice the example of Paul (Acts 9:18), Cornelius (Acts 10:43-48), and the Philippian Jailer (Acts 16:33)
You were placed into the body of Christ by spiritual baptism at the moment you were saved (Galatians 3:26-27). Now you follow the miracle of spiritual baptism with physical immersion into water, according to Acts 8:38; 10:47; 16:33.

losthorizon
Apr 3rd 2010, 05:41 PM
You were placed into the body of Christ by spiritual baptism at the moment you were saved (Galatians 3:26-27). Now you follow the miracle of spiritual baptism with physical immersion into water, according to Acts 8:38; 10:47; 16:33.


Once again we see that your sectarian bias forces you to completely misunderstand the essential nature and purpose of God’s ordinance of baptism in His plan to redeem our race. The baptism of Galatians 3:27 is *baptism in water* and it has been interpreted this way for over 2000 years by the church of God. Belief, repentance and baptism for the remission of sins all happen before one is saved as demonstrated by Jesus, Peter and Paul (among others). To misunderstand this truth is to misunderstand much and you misunderstand much my friend.

Baptism in water is the point in time where the believer’s sins are washed away by the blood of Christ; baptism in water is the point in time when the believer receives the “gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38); and it is at the point on baptism in water that the believer comes into union with Christ Jesus and is placed into the body of Christ by God. Move forward.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27 KJV)

Gal 3:27
As many of you as have been baptized into Christ - All of you who have believed in Christ as the promised Messiah, and received baptism as a public proof that ye had received Christ as your Lord and Savior, have put on Christ - have received his Spirit, and entered into his interests, and copied his manners. ~ Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Gal 3:27
baptized into Christ — (Rom_6:3).
have put on Christ — Ye did, in that very act of being baptized into Christ, put on, or clothe yourselves with, Christ: so the Greek expresses...The argument is, By baptism ye have put on Christ; and therefore, He being the Son of God, ye become sons by adoption, by virtue of His Sonship by generation. This proves that baptism, where it answers to its ideal, is not a mere empty sign, but a means of spiritual transference from the state of legal condemnation to that of living union with Christ, and of sonship through Him in relation to God (Rom_13:14). ~ A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

notuptome
Apr 3rd 2010, 06:17 PM
Are there two Holy Spirits as Jesus said baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit?

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Firstfruits
I do not know how you formed that thought. There are two baptisms. John 1:33 John baptised with water but Christ but Christ baptises with the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 3rd 2010, 06:37 PM
Is it really a perversion to obey the Lord in baptism? Are you really that confused on this subject? No one denies the truth that redemption is a gift of God's grace that comes trough faith but God’s grace is received through faith and obedience…”by faith…Abraham obeyed…” Your assertion that when one obeys the Lord’s command to be baptized in water s/he is adding to the work of Christ is an absurdity. How are we condemned by God for obeying God? Where is your logic?
Scripture says we are saved by grace. Gracereceived by faith and not by works. Obedience is not faith. You have added obedience as a work. Obedience is the natural outcome of grace. Without grace there is no obedience. Repentance is the natural out come of grace.


But you are mistaken – I have documented my understanding of baptism via God’s word - what more do you require? Jesus clearly states belief and baptism both precede salvation (Mark 16:16). This is a fact that you repeatedly run away from. Why? Peter clearly states belief, repentance and baptism come before one’s sins are remitted (Acts 2:38) yet you will not address this truth. Why? These passages are “well grounded in the scriptures” are they not? You misrepresent me, sir.
You are misrepresenting the scripture probably because you have not decerned between water and Holy Spirit baptisms. Peter declares that we are born again not of corruptable seed but of incorruptable by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever. 1 Pet 1:23


Again we see your folly – the truth taught in John 3:16 does not mention repentance yet you have already admitted that one cannot be saved without repentance. Listen to the words of our Lord…
"I tell you…but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” John 3:16 does not include the command to repent just as it does not include the command to be baptized in water but water baptism is required before one will be saved. Again – listen to the words of our Lord…
”he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” You remain very confused. What version of the Bible do you use that says, “he who believes and is not baptized shall be saved’? You fail once again to recognize the full council of God and that full council clearly includes our obligation to God to believe, repent and be baptized “for the remission of sins.” You need to re-think your sectarian bias.
Repentance of your own volition is of no merit. When a soul is convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment by the Holy Spirit repentance is the immediate outcome of receiveing Christ. Believeing on Christ and receiving Him as Saviour completely changes the heart this is true repentance and it is wrought of God and not man. No man comes to a saving knowledge of Christ except the Holy Spirit draw him.

If water baptism were able to save then Christ would not have needed to die on the cross of Calvary. Christ did all that was required all that God demanded to pay the debt sin had incurred. When Christ died on the cross He died in my place and fully paid my sin debt. John 3:16 sweetly declares that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

You leave me to wonder what it was that you experienced at your conversion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger