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Uncle Bud
Mar 24th 2010, 01:49 PM
Would God ever tell people that an event will happen by a certain time frame only to not fulfill it in order to test their character or faith? I'm referring to events such as one's own death or someone elses, the Second Coming of Christ, or punishment on America, etc. I would think this would be lying and God doesn't do that, even if the end justifies the means.

Athanasius
Mar 24th 2010, 01:57 PM
Or Hezekiah's death? Or the destruction of Ninevah? Or Abraham's son?
The answer in these cases, is yes. And I don't think that makes God a liar, no.

Uncle Bud
Mar 24th 2010, 02:00 PM
Or Hezekiah's death? Or the destruction of Ninevah? Or Abraham's son?
The answer in these cases, is yes. And I don't think that makes God a liar, no.

I'm not referring to God changing His mind based upon behavior, repentance, or prayer, but outright giving a prophecy with a time frame and not do it just to see if we will continue to have faith or see how we'll behave despite the nonfulfillment.

HisLeast
Mar 24th 2010, 02:26 PM
What use would faith be if God deliberately sets up a lie to "test" us?

As far as I've seen, God has never done this in scriptures. In cases where He said "This WILL happen" there were usually clear conditions and stipulations attached. I can't think of any cases where there were no stipulations and the event simply did not occur.

When it comes to modern people "giving prophecy", I tend to think the implication is quite clear when the prophecy doesn't come to fruition. Liars, cads, and well meaning fools. False prophecy is so epidemic in today's church the very word "prophecy" compels me to gag.

Athanasius
Mar 24th 2010, 02:30 PM
I'm not referring to God changing His mind based upon behavior, repentance, or prayer, but outright giving a prophecy with a time frame and not do it just to see if we will continue to have faith or see how we'll behave despite the nonfulfillment.

Oh, I don't think God changes his mind. These are, as HisLeast mentioned, circumstances where a certain conclusion is foretold with stipulations attached, which may change this foretold conclusion (I will destroy... Unless you repent...). Just to clarify, since I didn't answer your OP. No, I don't think God would act in the way you described.

Uncle Bud
Mar 24th 2010, 02:45 PM
What use would faith be if God deliberately sets up a lie to "test" us?

As far as I've seen, God has never done this in scriptures. In cases where He said "This WILL happen" there were usually clear conditions and stipulations attached. I can't think of any cases where there were no stipulations and the event simply did not occur.

When it comes to modern people "giving prophecy", I tend to think the implication is quite clear when the prophecy doesn't come to fruition. Liars, cads, and well meaning fools. False prophecy is so epidemic in today's church the very word "prophecy" compels me to gag.
Good Points. There seems to be so many "men of God" who do this, David Wilkerson, R.G. Stair, William Branham, etc. And then my close friend who gave time frames for the deaths of three people, his own, mine, and someone who worked for him who stole from him and threatened him.

HisLeast
Mar 24th 2010, 03:24 PM
Good Points. There seems to be so many "men of God" who do this, David Wilkerson, R.G. Stair, William Branham, etc. And then my close friend who gave time frames for the deaths of three people, his own, mine, and someone who worked for him who stole from him and threatened him.

I'm sorry to hear about that dude. :(

Frecs
Mar 24th 2010, 03:27 PM
Good Points. There seems to be so many "men of God" who do this, David Wilkerson, R.G. Stair, William Branham, etc. And then my close friend who gave time frames for the deaths of three people, his own, mine, and someone who worked for him who stole from him and threatened him.

Deut. 13:1-5 speaks of prophets who would turn Israel away from God to serve other gods. Deut 13:3 says for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. So that indicates that God may test your faith in Him by seeing if you will fall for that which will take you away from God.

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [B]the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I'm certain there is also a verse/passage regarding determining whether a prophet is true based on whether their prophecies come true but for the life of me, I can't find it at the moment. From memory, it states that if [I]any single prophecy of a prophet fails to come true, that prophet is a false prophet. There is not room for "well most of his/her prophecies came true"...nope, they must all come true. I wish I could find it...

Frecs
Mar 24th 2010, 03:28 PM
Good Points. There seems to be so many "men of God" who do this, David Wilkerson, R.G. Stair, William Branham, etc. And then my close friend who gave time frames for the deaths of three people, his own, mine, and someone who worked for him who stole from him and threatened him.

People need to be careful about calling themselves "Prophets" and about declaring "thus saith the Lord"....be very very careful...

Dani H
Mar 24th 2010, 03:42 PM
I think that there are people who have a judgmental heart. For whatever reason. They mainly see God coming down from the heavens with His rod of judgment and punishment. The ultimate form of punishment, to these people, is death. However, from where God sits, He already knows that death isn't the end. The ultimate punishment for anybody, is to be separated from the Lord. But we already know that after we die, not all of us are going to be separated from Him. So why people would think that death is an answer to anything, is beyond me.

We know that the Bible says that right now, he with the power over death, is the devil. Why would I wish the devil's power on anybody? I wish God's power on people. I wish to leave Him with the ultimate decision over life and death, because as Creator, that is His right. We've no right to wish death on people. We've no right to take it upon ourselves to "prophesy judgment" unless it is coupled with mercy. Even the most horrid prophecies of judgment in the OT, were always coupled with promises of hope for the future, with a promise of God to bring His people back to Himself, so that they would understand even in the midst of judgment, God did neither forget about them nor forsake them. We know that a prophecy is only of the Lord if there are promises of mercy along with judgment. Anything lopsided, we can toss out right off the bat, based on that. The main job of any prophet was to call God's people to repentance, and back to Himself. So keep that in mind, always. They provided glimpses of the future to affect behavioral change in the present. Until a point of no return had been reached, and the inevitable had to happen, but even then, always mercy in the midst of judgment, and hope for the future.

Prophecies in the OT were also far and wide attached to conditions. Do this - and I will bless you. Do that - and I have to visit judgment upon you. Your choice.

They were also intercessors. Daniel is a great example. God gave him a glimpse of the future only after Daniel spent some serious "carpet time" on his face before God, interceding for His people, being broken before the Lord, confessing sins, etc. Out of that heart and attitude and brokenness, his prophecies were born. You cannot be a prophet and not carry God's heart of love and compassion for His people.

Bottom line: I think your friend has a judgmental heart and is out of line with his "prophecies." He's wielding death in a manner that is unscriptural and is assuming an authority that isn't his, plain and simple.

I highly respect David Wilkerson, and I know that he is a broken man whose love for our nation and its people overshadows even his concern that judgment is coming, so I will take what he has to say and intercede and take it before God and plead for mercy and forgiveness, like I'm supposed to according to "If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves, etc."

William Branham ... well, he might have been a great evangelist, but he also was a big proponent of the utterly unscriptural serpent seed doctrine, so really, I have no opinion about him other than he evidently missed the mark with his own doctrine, somewhere along the line, and so I'd have to call any of his "prophecies" into question based on the fact that his own Scriptural foundation was quite wonky.

Hope that helps.

Firstfruits
Mar 24th 2010, 04:31 PM
Would God ever tell people that an event will happen by a certain time frame only to not fulfill it in order to test their character or faith? I'm referring to events such as one's own death or someone elses, the Second Coming of Christ, or punishment on America, etc. I would think this would be lying and God doesn't do that, even if the end justifies the means.

God would not do that which he has warned us about.

Deuteronomy 13: 1-5
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Mar 24th 2010, 04:51 PM
James declares that God tempts no man. James 1:13-16

The Christian is scourged and chastened but not tempted to sin. Heb 12:6-12

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Uncle Bud
Oct 1st 2010, 03:03 PM
I have to agree that God would not make a prophecy and then not fulfill it unless there were conditions attached and they were not met.

RockSolid
Oct 1st 2010, 09:21 PM
And then my close friend who gave time frames for the deaths of three people, his own, mine, and someone who worked for him who stole from him and threatened him.

I hope you don't believe that.
Out of curioisity, when are you 'supposed' to die?
Also you can do whatever you want till a few days before you die, you're invincible! Go swimming with sharks which would be cool, be the first to climb Everest without supplemental oxygen, you could set multiple guiness book world records.

Uncle Bud
Oct 2nd 2010, 01:42 PM
We are invincible until our time to go that God predetermined. Even in the case of murder or suicide, the victim would have died that day any way from some other cause (natural, accident, etc.). Although I konw God did not cause the murder or suicide, He would not have allowed it to succeed if that person wasn't supposed to die that day.