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Freek
Mar 24th 2010, 10:49 PM
Why do we allow the world to steal biblical principles, twist it a little, take God out of it and claim it for themselves. Then we as Christians refuse to apply those Biblical principles, because now we think that it originated with satan. We don't search the Scriptures to ascertain whether it originated from God or not. We must remember that satan is not a creator. He is a thief and came to steal, kill and destroy and he succeeded and left the church powerless.

Why do we allow it?

Athanasius
Mar 24th 2010, 10:50 PM
Where is this being allowed?

Freek
Mar 24th 2010, 10:55 PM
Here is an example. (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?204795-Question..does-the-bible-say-our-thoughts-can-affect-others&p=2364254#post2364254)

Freek
Mar 24th 2010, 11:05 PM
Another example is the twisting of meditation. It is a Biblical principle, yet we are afraid of it, because of Eastern connotations that have been attached to it.

crossnote
Mar 25th 2010, 12:05 AM
Another example is the twisting of meditation. It is a Biblical principle, yet we are afraid of it, because of Eastern connotations that have been attached to it.

When we meditate on his Word... yes.
On our navel.. no.

Frecs
Mar 25th 2010, 12:06 AM
Another example is the twisting of meditation. It is a Biblical principle, yet we are afraid of it, because of Eastern connotations that have been attached to it.

Well, you hit the nail on the head when you said that people don't search the scriptures. By not knowing the word, they have no idea how to rightly discern what is and is not of God. They will either assume that TM is okay because God said to meditate on His word OR they will not meditate in any form (that they are aware of) because they assume mediation in any form is Eastern Mysticism. There was recently a question about "Oneness Blessing" which is a counterfeit of the New Testament practice of laying on of hands. People will either not see the difference and accept the Eastern practice OR they will reject any practice of laying on of hands. It just boils down to a lack of knowledge.

Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you ...

Frecs
Mar 25th 2010, 12:10 AM
When we meditate on his Word... yes.
On our navel.. no.

Exactly, Christian meditation is thinking on the word...chewing on it with our mind... The counterfeit is TM (Transcendental Meditation) which simply opens the body/mind/spirit to receiving unholy spirits.

moonglow
Mar 25th 2010, 12:33 AM
Here is an example. (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?204795-Question..does-the-bible-say-our-thoughts-can-affect-others&p=2364254#post2364254)

And in case you didn't notice, I didn't just roll over and play dead and accept that..;) I posted about it to confirm (make sure) I was right about this kind of teaching..its not in the bible. Even though I have read the bible many times, it doesn't mean I remember every single verse in it. I forget more then I remember...:cool: So while I was pretty sure this teaching wasn't in the bible, I did want to double check it. And we should do that on anything actually.

I will admit however in the past I didn't know better and I did just take the word of pastors..especially ones I really liked and not checked it out. Now I know better. We have to remember that even pastors and bible teachers are imperfect human beings and make mistakes too! I don't think its because they are trying to mislead people in many of these cases. This pastor's teaching was very sound and backed by scriptures up until that point...and then after that..this pastor continued with sound teaching and backed up everything with scripture. This was one minor point in the series of teachings going on. So do I assume the worse? And think this pastor is a wolf in sheep's clothing because one thing was wrong? Or do I put it off to human error?

I think as Christians we can many times be too leery, too suspicious to the point we feel we have to check every single word that comes out of a teacher or preachers mouth to find fault so we can say...you are a wolf in sheep's clothing...then go around denouncing them. Did you know its in a sheep's character to be jumpy and to scare easily? So much so they won't drink from a running stream but their shepherd has to build a little dam to still the waters so they will drink from it..

Psalm 23
A Psalm of David.
1 The LORD is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.

Of course that might not be true since I heard a pastor on the Christian radio station say this..;)

At any rate...I think we need to have a balance here. Yes check it out, but don't just assume they are wolves..give them the benefit of the doubt like we would like the benefit of the doubt when we are in error.

Good topic you brought up! I am sure it will get people to thinking. :)

God bless

Freek
Mar 25th 2010, 12:40 AM
I was not referring to anyone specifically. The thread just reminded me of how prevalent this attitude is in the church. I apologize if it came across like that. I'm angry and I want to share my thoughts on this topic. The Power of Positive Thinking is another example. It is Biblical, but it has been stolen. I can go on about this for ages. :D

moonglow
Mar 25th 2010, 03:02 AM
I was not referring to anyone specifically. The thread just reminded me of how prevalent this attitude is in the church. I apologize if it came across like that. I'm angry and I want to share my thoughts on this topic. The Power of Positive Thinking is another example. It is Biblical, but it has been stolen. I can go on about this for ages. :D

I know...and I understand your frustrations on this..I really do. Not too long ago someone started a thread about things commonly believed but weren't true. One example was the three wise men. The bible doesn't actually say there were three..only that three gifts were given, so the 'idea' there were three wize men got started in some older songs..and it just got carried on and on...

They did a very long thread on 'assumed' things that weren't true. It was pretty interesting.

God bless

Freek
Mar 25th 2010, 10:33 AM
I know...and I understand your frustrations on this..I really do. Not too long ago someone started a thread about things commonly believed but weren't true. One example was the three wise men. The bible doesn't actually say there were three..only that three gifts were given, so the 'idea' there were three wize men got started in some older songs..and it just got carried on and on...

They did a very long thread on 'assumed' things that weren't true. It was pretty interesting.

God bless

It gets worse. We even join the ranks of the enemy and shoot our own soldiers. Why???

Frances
Mar 25th 2010, 05:32 PM
We even join the ranks of the enemy and shoot our own soldiers. Why???

Pride.

moonglow, I 've not heard of building a dam for sheep to drink before, but it's certainly true they need still water, or at least any ripples going away from them - or the water gets up their noses.

Ryan R
Mar 25th 2010, 06:57 PM
I was not referring to anyone specifically. The thread just reminded me of how prevalent this attitude is in the church. I apologize if it came across like that. I'm angry and I want to share my thoughts on this topic. The Power of Positive Thinking is another example. It is Biblical, but it has been stolen. I can go on about this for ages. :D

The Power of Positive thinking is not Biblical at all. It is the idea that we can create and alter reality strictly by the constructive power of our minds. The principle is grounded in the mystical assumption that we are all gods and therefore our wills have creative power over the universe, if we learn to tap into that power (a form of enlightenment).

This is the same lie that Satan told Adam and Eve in the Garden, ""your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God" (Gen. 3:5).

In the link you included above, the poster directed people to the Berean Call website. Their whole mission statement (in fact, their very name) is that believers need to prove what they believe from the Bible, instead of taking things for granted, a tribute to the Bereans who "examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" (Acts 17:11).

The problem here as I see it, is that we don't only need to know what is in the Bible, but what is meant by such terms as the Power of Positive thinking (which the Berean Call is diligently striving to do). We are most certainly commanded to think on edifying things "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things" (Phil. 4:8), but we most certainly are not supposed to accept the mystical practices of trying to achieve our own wills here on earth through psychokinesis. It's another religion altogether.

We needn't fear but we also must not participate. God outlines what we're supposed to do in the Bible. Biblical meditation is commanded, but God says we need to meditate on His word (Psalm 1:2), while Eastern meditation involves clearing your mind (very different) and subjecting yourself to the influences of untested spirits.

It is critical in discernment not to fall into the misdirection of Satan's lies, and we avoid this by following exactly what the Bible teaches, so I agree we need to search the scriptures daily to ensure we know what that is, but to step away from the forms of godliness that are not from God is essential to worshipping Him, as well.

Ryan R
Mar 25th 2010, 07:12 PM
So do I assume the worse? And think this pastor is a wolf in sheep's clothing because one thing was wrong? Or do I put it off to human error?

Hi Moonglow,

I personally don't spend much effort trying to determine motives. The Bible tells us that there are wolves in sheep clothing and tells us how to guard against their influence, but it doesn't say that we are responsible for trying to identify them all.

What we are instructed to identify is error, not motive. If someone will not renounce their error when confronted in a Biblical manner, that is different, but error just needs to be corrected, and not all error - if it's a smaller matter or a non-salvic disagreement in interpretations, we see in Titus we are warned against foolish contentions. That way we can avoid the suspicions and just do what we're told. God will sort the wolves for us. They are the ones who will oppose His word when confronted with it (1 John 4:1).

crossnote
Mar 25th 2010, 09:48 PM
The Power of Positive thinking is not Biblical at all.


Frecs probably has this or a similar verse in mind....

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
(Php 4:8)

Frecs
Mar 26th 2010, 12:24 AM
Frecs probably has this or a similar verse in mind....

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
(Php 4:8)

That was actually quoted by Freek, but, it is a favorite verse of mine. I don't think it is suggesting that our thoughts or words have power in themselves. I do think that what we think and what we say has to power to effect our attitudes, emotions, and especially our faith in God.

Not to derail this thread, I found the following verses in relation to "thinking":

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
1Cr 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Eph 3:20-21 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Jam 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.

YSIC,
Frecs (not to be confused with Freek :D )

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 01:15 PM
The Power of Positive thinking is not Biblical at all. It is the idea that we can create and alter reality strictly by the constructive power of our minds. The principle is grounded in the mystical assumption that we are all gods and therefore our wills have creative power over the universe, if we learn to tap into that power (a form of enlightenment).

This is the same lie that Satan told Adam and Eve in the Garden, ""your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God" (Gen. 3:5).

In the link you included above, the poster directed people to the Berean Call website. Their whole mission statement (in fact, their very name) is that believers need to prove what they believe from the Bible, instead of taking things for granted, a tribute to the Bereans who "examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" (Acts 17:11).

The problem here as I see it, is that we don't only need to know what is in the Bible, but what is meant by such terms as the Power of Positive thinking (which the Berean Call is diligently striving to do). We are most certainly commanded to think on edifying things "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things" (Phil. 4:8), but we most certainly are not supposed to accept the mystical practices of trying to achieve our own wills here on earth through psychokinesis. It's another religion altogether.

We needn't fear but we also must not participate. God outlines what we're supposed to do in the Bible. Biblical meditation is commanded, but God says we need to meditate on His word (Psalm 1:2), while Eastern meditation involves clearing your mind (very different) and subjecting yourself to the influences of untested spirits.

It is critical in discernment not to fall into the misdirection of Satan's lies, and we avoid this by following exactly what the Bible teaches, so I agree we need to search the scriptures daily to ensure we know what that is, but to step away from the forms of godliness that are not from God is essential to worshipping Him, as well.


You're wrong, it is biblical, but we have been conditioned that it is not and that is the problem. Go study the steps of Abraham's faith (how his faith developed) and you'll see it as clear as daylight. Your post clearly illustrates the perception that I have a problem with.

Ryan R
Mar 26th 2010, 04:04 PM
You're wrong, it is biblical, but we have been conditioned that it is not and that is the problem. Go study the steps of Abraham's faith (how his faith developed) and you'll see it as clear as daylight. Your post clearly illustrates the perception that I have a problem with.

I have presented you with reasons why it isn't Biblical, and you are replying by making assumptions about what you figure I know, instead of appealing evidence or demonstrating anything. I will point out here that you have no idea what I do or do not know about Abraham's faith and how it was developed.

So, if I am wrong, then please demonstrate how.

Dani H
Mar 26th 2010, 04:19 PM
How about fasting that has nothing to do with "cleansing?"

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 04:36 PM
I have presented you with reasons why it isn't Biblical, and you are replying by making assumptions about what you figure I know, instead of appealing evidence or demonstrating anything. I will point out here that you have no idea what I do or do not know about Abraham's faith and how it was developed.

So, if I am wrong, then please demonstrate how.

Sir, if you understood how it worked, you would not have written your post. :D It illustrates the point that I made in the OP quite clearly. Assuming that something originated with satan, when it actually originated with our Creator.

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 04:45 PM
How about fasting that has nothing to do with "cleansing?"

I don't understand.:) I just want to make sure that we are on the same page before I respond.

Dani H
Mar 26th 2010, 05:28 PM
I don't understand.:) I just want to make sure that we are on the same page before I respond.

The reason the world doesn't eat, has more to do with weight loss or cleansing/health reasons than any sort of spiritual principle. Is what I'm saying. :)

Slug1
Mar 26th 2010, 05:50 PM
The reason the world doesn't eat, has more to do with weight loss or cleansing/health reasons than any sort of spiritual principle. Is what I'm saying. :)I've seen this happen and it's sad. Look, I fasted twice a week for a month and I lost 10 pounds!!

Ummmm, where do I start to explain the folly?

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 05:58 PM
The reason the world doesn't eat, has more to do with weight loss or cleansing/health reasons than any sort of spiritual principle. Is what I'm saying. :)

Oh OK. I am wondering how fasting or not fasting rather stops God from working. What does my staying hungry have to do with my level of faith?

Ryan R
Mar 26th 2010, 06:10 PM
Sir, if you understood how it worked, you would not have written your post. :D It illustrates the point that I made in the OP quite clearly. Assuming that something originated with satan, when it actually originated with our Creator.

I'm not making assumptions. I provided my argument and substantiated my claim. I am requesting you substantiate yours, although I’m beginning to suspect that you can’t.

If I truly didn't understand, then you'd show me how I am in error. As it stands, I held the arguement up to scripture, and the Power of Positive thinking failed.

Where's your challenge to take everything to scripture now? Where's your Biblical support?

If you think I'm going to roll over and play dead here, because that's what you assume Christians do, prepare to be surprised.

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 06:16 PM
I'm not making assumptions. I provided my argument and substantiated my claim. I am requesting you substantiate yours, although Iím beginning to suspect that you canít.

No sir, I asked a question in the OP and you respond by quoting 2 random unrelated scriptures in order to prove what??? Why should I go through an extensive study on this thread to try and convince someone whose mind is made up? It has never worked on this board. Why do you think it will work now? I just wanted to know why do we allow the world to steal our birthright?

Is it because we think that it originated with them? If so, I understand, but what if I can show us that it originated with God? Will we change our doctrine or not?

Ryan R
Mar 26th 2010, 06:31 PM
No sir, I asked a question in the OP and you respond by quoting 2 random unrelated scriptures in order to prove what??? Why should I go through an extensive study on this thread to try and convince someone whose mind is made up? It has never worked on this board. Why do you think it will work now? I just want to know why do we allow the world to steal our birthright?
OK, the hard way suits me.
Let’s analyze this then. Your position is that my quotes are unrelated to your original question.
Here’s your question in the OP:

Why do we allow the world to steal biblical principles, twist it a little, take God out of it and claim it for themselves. Then we as Christians refuse to apply those Biblical principles, because now we think that it originated with satan. We don't search the Scriptures to ascertain whether it originated from God or not. We must remember that satan is not a creator. He is a thief and came to steal, kill and destroy and he succeeded and left the church powerless.

Why do we allow it?
No one knows what you’re talking about, so Xel asked you to clarify, specifically “Where is this being allowed?”

You posted the following as an example:



I have read through the bible probably six times at least in my life time and I sure don't remember any verses saying this..but then I also forget so much too..:rolleyes: Anyway I was watching a well known pastor whom I will not share the name with because I don't want this to turn into a big debate about this person..I want to stay focused on the question. During the talk in which everything up to this point was matched with scriptures..except this just rang some alarm bells in me. How thinking badly about someone you are with can cause them to feel worse about themselves...and even thinking badly about a plant will cause it to die. :hmm:

This was mentioned too in which there is scriptures for:

"Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruit." (Proverbs 18:21)

Matthew 15:11
" It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

Matthew 15:18
"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.

I can certainly understand how what we say can wound others..but thoughts? The most I have ever read on this subject in the bible is how our thoughts affect ourselves...our thought life so to speak. But is there any scriptures that says having good thoughts or bad thoughts about someone can do something to them?

God blessThis sounds like New Age stuff. All this positive thinking going on is nothing but New Age. Dave Hunt has written a lot about this and it might interest you to read some of his stuff. His site is www.thebereancall.org (http://www.thebereancall.org)

So, this is what you use as the example to substantiate the op.

When confronted by Moonglow about why you were using her post that is a shining example of a Christian seeking Biblical answers instead of just rolling over and playing dead, you replied the following:


I was not referring to anyone specifically. The thread just reminded me of how prevalent this attitude is in the church. I apologize if it came across like that. I'm angry and I want to share my thoughts on this topic. The Power of Positive Thinking is another example. It is Biblical, but it has been stolen. I can go on about this for ages. :D

So, I addressed the example you provided of the Power of Positive Thinking, and how it’s not a matter of the world stealing something from Christianity, it is a false religion, based on a corrupted premise (similar to the false premise Satan offered Eve in the Garden to excuse her rebellion), and that we have the Biblical approach in Philippians 4:8 for how to think, so as to not lose track of our “birthright.” To use an example, I'm not suggesting that if the world gets drunk then you have to abstain from wine which "makes man's heart glad" (Psalm 104:15), but I am saying that if the Bible says not to get drunk on the excess of wine, then drunk=bad. Likewise, the Bible doesn't tell you to think negative thoughts, and it says that the prayers of the righteous availeth much, but psychokinesis=bad.

I have thereby demonstrated that such things are not in line with the Bible, as you suggest, and that we shouldn't be embracing such things, but I also provided the Biblical instruction that we should be following instead. That is the answer to your question of what I am trying to prove.

And you should go through the effort of extensive study on this thread because you posted something erroneous that you are passionate about, and it is up to you to change your position or provide a defense if what you are saying in demonstrably contradicted in scripture. I didn't make you post, but now that it's out there I have to contend for the faith because the consequence of what you are suggesting is that Christians accept false doctrines.

Now that I’ve ironed out that context, please demonstrate how the verses are unrelated to the thread, how my position is in error, or even what makes you so sure that I’ve made up my mind and am therefore a waste of time.

Frecs
Mar 26th 2010, 06:51 PM
Oh OK. I am wondering how fasting or not fasting rather stops God from working. What does my staying hungry have to do with my level of faith?

This is a good example of what the OP addressed because we see the world and other religions embrace fasting for health/healing and spiritual access (or mind control) while the church stops the practice almost wholesale. We can certainly benefit from the health benefits of fasting but the most important aspect is the spiritual benefits.

Does fasting force God to act or the lack of fasting cause Him not to act?

2Ch 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

"Humble" means fast--to deny oneself of food in order to display a humble and contrite spirit. As anyone who fasts can tell you, it definite curcifies the flesh.

Psa 35:13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing [was] sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.
Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

What fasting does not do is force God's hand. It isn't a hunger strike. It is an effort to draw us to God not the other way around.

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 07:21 PM
This is a good example of what the OP addressed because we see the world and other religions embrace fasting for health/healing and spiritual access (or mind control) while the church stops the practice almost wholesale. We can certainly benefit from the health benefits of fasting but the most important aspect is the spiritual benefits.

Does fasting force God to act or the lack of fasting cause Him not to act?

2Ch 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

"Humble" means fast--to deny oneself of food in order to display a humble and contrite spirit. As anyone who fasts can tell you, it definite curcifies the flesh.

Psa 35:13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing [was] sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.
Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

What fasting does not do is force God's hand. It isn't a hunger strike. It is an effort to draw us to God not the other way around.

You are right Frecs. God never changes, therefore fasting must change us. I was thinking about Matt 17. The disciples could not drive the demon out of the boy. Actually, this is stated wrong. God drives out demons, but He would not when the disciples did it, but when Jesus did it, the Holy Spirit worked to get rid of it. So we cannot develop a doctrine that it was not God's will to set the boy free, because he was set free. It was unbelief that stopped Him from working and fasting can address that, but how?

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 07:26 PM
OK, the hard way suits me.
Let’s analyze this then. Your position is that my quotes are unrelated to your original question.
Here’s your question in the OP:

No one knows what you’re talking about, so Xel asked you to clarify, specifically “Where is this being allowed?”

You posted the following as an example:



So, this is what you use as the example to substantiate the op.

When confronted by Moonglow about why you were using her post that is a shining example of a Christian seeking Biblical answers instead of just rolling over and playing dead, you replied the following:



So, I addressed the example you provided of the Power of Positive Thinking, and how it’s not a matter of the world stealing something from Christianity, it is a false religion, based on a corrupted premise (similar to the false premise Satan offered Eve in the Garden to excuse her rebellion), and that we have the Biblical approach in Philippians 4:8 for how to think, so as to not lose track of our “birthright.” To use an example, I'm not suggesting that if the world gets drunk then you have to abstain from wine which "makes man's heart glad" (Psalm 104:15), but I am saying that if the Bible says not to get drunk on the excess of wine, then drunk=bad. Likewise, the Bible doesn't tell you to think negative thoughts, and it says that the prayers of the righteous availeth much, but psychokinesis=bad.

I have thereby demonstrated that such things are not in line with the Bible, as you suggest, and that we shouldn't be embracing such things, but I also provided the Biblical instruction that we should be following instead. That is the answer to your question of what I am trying to prove.

And you should go through the effort of extensive study on this thread because you posted something erroneous that you are passionate about, and it is up to you to change your position or provide a defense if what you are saying in demonstrably contradicted in scripture. I didn't make you post, but now that it's out there I have to contend for the faith because the consequence of what you are suggesting is that Christians accept false doctrines.

Now that I’ve ironed out that context, please demonstrate how the verses are unrelated to the thread, how my position is in error, or even what makes you so sure that I’ve made up my mind and am therefore a waste of time.

I have attempted to explain this many times in the past and people just don't get it. I am really sorry if I made incorrect assumptions about your position. For interest sake, Is my position refuted in scripture? I'd really like to know. :D I think that I should go through an extensive study for my own benefit too, but I don't think it will work doing it in a thread.

Frecs
Mar 26th 2010, 07:38 PM
You are right Frecs. God never changes, therefore fasting must change us. I was thinking about Matt 17. The disciples could not drive the demon out of the boy. Actually, this is stated wrong. God drives out demons, but He would not when the disciples did it, but when Jesus did it, the Holy Spirit worked to get rid of it. So we cannot develop a doctrine that it was not God's will to set the boy free, because he was set free. It was unbelief that stopped Him from working and fasting can address that, but how?

Fasting gets us in line with God. It weakens our physical body but strengthens our spirit to enable us to do spiritual warfare. Just as it cleanses our physical body of toxins it cleanses our soul and spirit of religious toxins. It gets us in a "right frame of mind" and in right alignment with God. We must be tuned in to God during a fast because it will otherwise open us up to other spirits/influences. We see evidence of this when other religions fast...they aren't tuning into God or receiving the Holy Spirit..they are influenced by the powers and spirits of this world.

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 07:46 PM
Fasting gets us in line with God. It weakens our physical body but strengthens our spirit to enable us to do spiritual warfare. Just as it cleanses our physical body of toxins it cleanses our soul and spirit of religious toxins. It gets us in a "right frame of mind" and in right alignment with God. We must be tuned in to God during a fast because it will otherwise open us up to other spirits/influences. We see evidence of this when other religions fast...they aren't tuning into God or receiving the Holy Spirit..they are influenced by the powers and spirits of this world.

So I can say it like in Romans 8:10. Fasting enforces the positional truth that the body is dead to sin.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 26th 2010, 08:02 PM
You're wrong, it is biblical, but we have been conditioned that it is not and that is the problem. Go study the steps of Abraham's faith (how his faith developed) and you'll see it as clear as daylight. Your post clearly illustrates the perception that I have a problem with.


the power of positive thinking is not Biblical... sorry to say...

you cant put God in a formula.. such as the 'steps of faith'... you cant put God in a formula.. period...

Faith is not something that can be 'formulazied'.. this is just like the prospertiy gospel and the formulas it teaches and uses...

however man does.. and he/she calls it Truth.... how tragic....

Ryan R
Mar 26th 2010, 08:32 PM
I have attempted to explain this many times in the past and people just don't get it. I am really sorry if I made incorrect assumptions about your position. For interest sake, Is my position refuted in scripture? I'd really like to know. :D I think that I should go through an extensive study for my own benefit too, but I don't think it will work doing it in a thread.

If your position is that the Power of Positive Thinking is biblical, then yes, it is refuted in scripture, because of the reasons I've already listed. In what way do you see it as biblical?

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 08:35 PM
the power of positive thinking is not Biblical... sorry to say...

you cant put God in a formula.. such as the 'steps of faith'... you cant put God in a formula.. period...

Faith is not something that can be 'formulazied'.. this is just like the prospertiy gospel and the formulas it teaches and uses...

however man does.. and he/she calls it Truth.... how tragic....

Yes sir, it's tragic. We allowed ourselves to be blinded. BTW, have you deleted Romans 4:12 from your Bible? If not, maybe you just did not know it's in there.

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 08:36 PM
If your position is that the Power of Positive Thinking is biblical, then yes, it is refuted in scripture, because of the reasons I've already listed. In what way do you see it as biblical?

Where does scripture refute it? I searched and could not find it. I see it as Biblical after reading Romans 4 and particularly v12. Then I went back to the OT to find what those steps were. Then cross referencing to 2 Cor 10:4-5 in conjunction with Jeremiah 23:29 pretty much settled it for me. :D Please note that I do not suggest that we take God out of the "equation" or formula as another poster had put it.

Ryan R
Mar 26th 2010, 09:01 PM
Where does scripture refute it? I searched and could not find it.

Apart from in the Garden like I already mentioned:

It is attributing the human psyche with divine attributes, as we're warned against: "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised" (Romans 1:21-25, NIV).

It is the attempt to exact control over creation, which is God's office alone. Even Jesus in the flesh did not try to do this, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done" (Luke 22:42).

Further, since this control is magically done through the mystical power of the god-mind, it is sorcery:

Leviticus 19:31
“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God,

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Leviticus 20:27
“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”

And you're ignoring what I asked, so I'll repeat myself:

In what way do you see it as Biblical?

Ryan R
Mar 26th 2010, 09:08 PM
Where does scripture refute it? I searched and could not find it. I see it as Biblical after reading Romans 4 and particularly v12. Then I went back to the OT to find what those steps were. Please note that I do not suggest that we take God out of the "equation" or formula as another poster had put it.

We've all read it and have clearly come to different conclusions than you have. So, if you want to justify your conclusions, lay them out for us, as we've done for you so we can demonstrate whether or not they are scripturally consistent.

I've done a lot of leg-work for you already and I'm getting impatient because I am told to "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned" (Titus 3:10-11).

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 09:18 PM
Apart from in the Garden like I already mentioned:

The garden does not count. It actually reinforces my point. The fact that satan twisted God's word, does not invalidate the principle.


It is attributing the human psyche with divine attributes, as we're warned against: "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised" (Romans 1:21-25, NIV).

I do not see how these scriptures apply to the principle.


It is the attempt to exact control over creation, which is God's office alone. Even Jesus in the flesh did not try to do this, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done" (Luke 22:42).

Do you care to elaborate on this? I don't think that is what I had in mind when I started the thread. Jesus told us to occupy and to enforce the authority that He gave us until he returns, but that is a different subject altogether. :D


Further, since this control is magically done through the mystical power of the god-mind, it is sorcery:

and when God Himself is involved? What is it called then?


Leviticus 19:31
“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God,

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Leviticus 20:27
“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”

There is nothing magical about God working. How can there be? OK I guess some would call the working of the gifts of the Spirit magical. :D


In what way do you see it as Biblical?

I answered this in broad terms in a previous post. #36

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 26th 2010, 09:37 PM
Please note that I do not suggest that we take God out of the "equation" or formula as another poster had put it.


FREEK,

thats your err... you have put God in a formula and box... or some kind of equation.. as persay...

thats brining Him down to your level... and man centered.. which is what the Power of Postive Thinking Gospel is... its another one...

its putting man's 'mind' which is fallen and carnal... at or above the Wisdom of God.. which comes only thru the Revelation of the Spirit as He teaches and leads the convert... feeding the inner man and placing the Word of God in the converts heart which has been made soft and pliable... thru the Work of the Eternal Spirit..

'Minding' the things of God or 'thinking' on them... thats done with the 'aid' of the Paraclete or Teacher.. the HOly Ghost...

its not man filling his mind with all sorts of formulas with Scripture intermingled in those 'formulas' or eqations.... thats man bringing God down to His level.. and telling Him..

now listen God... I'm going to make you 'work' like this.. exactly the way I've got it laid out in my positvie thinking and formula..

that .. is all essense is very Dangerous...

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 09:43 PM
FREEK,

thats your err... you have put God in a formula and box... or some kind of equation.. as persay...

thats brining Him down to your level... and man centered.. which is what the Power of Postive Thinking Gospel is... its another one...

its putting man's 'mind' which is fallen and carnal... at or above the Wisdom of God.. which comes only thru the Revelation of the Spirit as He teaches and leads the convert... feeding the inner man and placing the Word of God in the converts heart which has been made soft and pliable... thru the Work of the Eternal Spirit..

'Minding' the things of God or 'thinking' on them... thats done with the 'aid' of the Paraclete or Teacher.. the HOly Ghost...

its not man filling his mind with all sorts of formulas with Scripture intermingled in those 'formulas' or eqations.... thats man bringing God down to His level.. and telling Him..

now listen God... I'm going to make you 'work' like this.. exactly the way I've got it laid out in my positvie thinking and formula..

that .. is all essense is very Dangerous...

It is not a formula. It is the Word of God. Your mind has to be renewed etc etc. There are to many scriptures to not believe it. If one takes individual scriptures, problems do arise, but the principle runs like a golden thread throughout the Bible. If you want to call it a formula, that's fine by me, but I won't.

It has nothing to do with bringing God down to our level or lifting ourselves up to His level, but agreeing with God's Word and changing our thinking to that of the mind of Christ. I am beginning to see that it is something new for many of us, but it is God's plan for us. It is in the Bible and it's exciting.

Frecs
Mar 27th 2010, 01:49 AM
So I can say it like in Romans 8:10. Fasting enforces the positional truth that the body is dead to sin.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

:hmm:

No, that verse is talking about our bodies being dead to sin because Christ dwells in us. Christ dwelling in me and making me thus dead to sin has nothing to do with fasting or not fasting.

Biblical fasting was done for several purposes:
*as part of showing contrition for sin
*as part of prayer to seek God's wisdom on an issue
*as part of prayer to request healing for someone or to cast out demons
*as part of prayer to request God move in a situation

Biblical fasting is about getting our flesh out of the way as we seek God.
Biblical fasting is about disciplining the flesh as to strengthen our spiritual walk.
Historically, Christian pastors have taught the use of regular scheduled fasting as a spiritual discipline. This was particularly common for the early Methodists, I believe.

It is not wrong to fast for cleansing or healing of the physical body. God has designed our bodies to do just those things when food is removed for a period of time. It's important though to understand what Biblical fasting is, what healing fasting is, and what starvation is. I've seen people who use fasting and/or Calorie Restriction (ala "CR Society") as a cover for anorexia. Thus, it is incredibly important to understand the driving force behind the purpose of the behavior.

Ryan R
Mar 29th 2010, 06:15 PM
The garden does not count. It actually reinforces my point. The fact that satan twisted God's word, does not invalidate the principle.

The 'principle', as you call it, is Satan twisting God's word.


I do not see how these scriptures apply to the principle.

They aren't addressing "the principle", they are demonstrating how sorcery (the example in this case being trying to control reality with the mind, or The Power of Positive Thinking) are forbidden by God, and therefore you are in error to say that the Power of Positive thinking is Biblical. I have demonstrated that it's not.

Your concept of this "principle" is that it overrides the commandments of scripture. This is sorcery.


Do you care to elaborate on this?

Yes, I always want to elaborate.


I don't think that is what I had in mind when I started the thread. Jesus told us to occupy and to enforce the authority that He gave us until he returns, but that is a different subject altogether.

So why are you asking me to elaborate, just to tell me that it is not the subject of the thread?

Provide quotes for your assertion, so that I can demonstrate from them that the Bible tells us to perform God's will using the authority given to us, not that we are to use witchcraft and disguise it as God's commandments.


and when God Himself is involved? What is it called then?

The opposite of the Power of Positive thinking, or any other type of sorcery.

It is called the Will of God, granting prayer requests, or the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit, but those are just references to God's power to do His own will, not titles that refer to new-age witchcraft, like the Power of Positive thinking.


There is nothing magical about God working.

Exactly, which is the exact reason that the Power of Positive thinking isn't Biblical, with it's inherent magic and mysticism that I've already mentioned.


How can there be? OK I guess some would call the working of the gifts of the Spirit magical.

They shouldn't and neither should the gifts of the Spirit be suggested overlapped with the magical practices of new aged mysticism.


I answered this in broad terms in a previous post. #36

And I've already expressed that you must define it in particular terms because you are trying to lead Christians into sorcery, but since you refuse to satisfy me on the subject, I'll escalate it to the moderators.

Bye.

Firefighter
Mar 29th 2010, 06:20 PM
Why do we allow the world to steal biblical principles, twist it a little, take God out of it and claim it for themselves. Then we as Christians refuse to apply those Biblical principles, because now we think that it originated with satan. We don't search the Scriptures to ascertain whether it originated from God or not. We must remember that satan is not a creator. He is a thief and came to steal, kill and destroy and he succeeded and left the church powerless.

Why do we allow it?

Maybe we should all go "1 Kings 18:40" on them and junk... :D

Freek
Mar 29th 2010, 06:34 PM
The 'principle', as you call it, is Satan twisting God's word.



They aren't addressing "the principle", they are demonstrating how sorcery (the example in this case being trying to control reality with the mind, or The Power of Positive Thinking) are forbidden by God, and therefore you are in error to say that the Power of Positive thinking is Biblical. I have demonstrated that it's not.

Your concept of this "principle" is that it overrides the commandments of scripture. This is sorcery.



Yes, I always want to elaborate.



So why are you asking me to elaborate, just to tell me that it is not the subject of the thread?

Provide quotes for your assertion, so that I can demonstrate from them that the Bible tells us to perform God's will using the authority given to us, not that we are to use witchcraft and disguise it as God's commandments.



The opposite of the Power of Positive thinking, or any other type of sorcery.

It is called the Will of God, granting prayer requests, or the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit, but those are just references to God's power to do His own will, not titles that refer to new-age witchcraft, like the Power of Positive thinking.



Exactly, which is the exact reason that the Power of Positive thinking isn't Biblical, with it's inherent magic and mysticism that I've already mentioned.



They shouldn't and neither should the gifts of the Spirit be suggested overlapped with the magical practices of new aged mysticism.



And I've already expressed that you must define it in particular terms because you are trying to lead Christians into sorcery, but since you refuse to satisfy me on the subject, I'll escalate it to the moderators.

Bye.


Sir, do you really want to know, or do don't you? Don't fear. Where did I suggest sorcery or anything mystical that is not in line with God's Word. Nowhere!!! I've been around here for a while and you should have noticed that I give the Word the highest respect. Go study how God worked with Abram to get him to believe. I think it will be as clear as mud. :D I am trying to lead you to the answer because I have found that people have to discover it for themselves to believe it. I presume that you do not know that satan has a counterfeit for everything that God created??

Freek
Mar 29th 2010, 07:21 PM
Maybe we should all go "1 Kings 18:40" on them and junk... :D

Don't you think that would be a great way to win the Muslim world for Jesus. We rent a stadium, get some of their maimed people and an Imam or 2. Let them Imams pray to Allah first and afterwards you and me pray to Jesus. The one who heals them is the real God. :D Do you have faith brother?

Firefighter
Mar 29th 2010, 09:51 PM
I was referring specifically to verse 40...

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 08:06 AM
I was referring specifically to verse 40...

I know, but don't you think that I have a neat idea? :D

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 11:34 AM
Minus the verse 40 part... YES!!!

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 11:49 AM
I must admit that doing verse 40 to them did not even cross my mind. :D

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 12:46 PM
Have you ever noticed that the verse 40 part always got left out of the story when we heard it in Sunday School as kids... :hmm:

I was shocked as a young adult when I read the whole story. :D

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 01:58 PM
Have you ever noticed that the verse 40 part always got left out of the story when we heard it in Sunday School as kids... :hmm:

I was shocked as a young adult when I read the whole story. :D

No I did not really take notice of it - to my shame. I was in bondage to a social gospel for quite some time. The strongholds are now coming down, slowly but surely. :D

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 05:47 PM
Sir, do you really want to know, or do don't you? Don't fear. Where did I suggest sorcery or anything mystical that is not in line with God's Word. Nowhere!!! I've been around here for a while and you should have noticed that I give the Word the highest respect. Go study how God worked with Abram to get him to believe. I think it will be as clear as mud. :D I am trying to lead you to the answer because I have found that people have to discover it for themselves to believe it. I presume that you do not know that satan has a counterfeit for everything that God created??


Hi Ryan, Did you read Abram's encounter with God yet?

Freek

Ryan R
Mar 30th 2010, 09:22 PM
Hi Ryan, Did you read Abram's encounter with God yet?

Freek

Many times, but I already mentioned that to you before and you ignored it.

I'm not answering any more of your questions, since you did not do me the courtesy of answering any of mine and thereby alleviate my suspicions that you are spreading the mysticism that I so plainly pointed out you are supporting.

I won't be posting further here.

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 09:41 PM
Many times, but I already mentioned that to you before and you ignored it.

I'm not answering any more of your questions, since you did not do me the courtesy of answering any of mine and thereby alleviate my suspicions that you are spreading the mysticism that I so plainly pointed out you are supporting.

I won't be posting further here.

Clear as mud like I said, heh?

mcgyver
Mar 30th 2010, 10:42 PM
Where does scripture refute it? I searched and could not find it. I see it as Biblical after reading Romans 4 and particularly v12. Then I went back to the OT to find what those steps were. Then cross referencing to 2 Cor 10:4-5 in conjunction with Jeremiah 23:29 pretty much settled it for me. :D Please note that I do not suggest that we take God out of the "equation" or formula as another poster had put it.

Hey Freek,

You've got me a bit confused (and I've read the thread over 4 times now :P), so can you explain for me how the Power of Positive Thinking for example would tie in with scriptural Christianity?

I reckon what I am asking is whether a "positive confession" of things of that like are scriptural?

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 11:29 PM
Hey Freek,

You've got me a bit confused (and I've read the thread over 4 times now :P), so can you explain for me how the Power of Positive Thinking for example would tie in with scriptural Christianity?

I reckon what I am asking is whether a "positive confession" of things of that like are scriptural?

I am working on an explanation, but have difficulty setting it out in a logical manner. A good place to start will be a study of the Hebrew word Hagaw Strongs Ref Nr H1897. Look at the different actions included in the meaning of this Word. Imagine, speak, mutter, study. Our imagination is a powerful "tool" created by God. Let's use it for His glory and His glory alone rather than hagawing over some girl in a p0rn magazine. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Make the Word come alive when you meditate on David and Goliath. Add detail. What went through his mind when he took the lunches to his brothers and heard the giant talking a lot of bull? When you meditate on the wars of Israel, you get to a place where you can literally taste the sand in your mouth. Then the Word has come alive for you. :D

God told Joshua, this Book of the Law should stay in your mouth. How does it stay in your mouth? By speaking it. Psalms 1:1-3 says Blessed is the man... and goes on to describe these blessings. Paul tells us to renew our minds with the Word of God and hagaw is the key, but we lost it.

God took Abram and worked with him. He had to get Abram to believe. Remember Abram looked at an empty crib for decades and had strongholds in his mind that had to come down. It's very interesting to study how God did it. :D He took him outside and showed him the stars. Why? To kickstart Abrams imagination. Same with the sand by day. To kickstart his imagination.

The second thing God did was to change his name to Abraham. Why? To get him to say what God said. Every time he went to visit his mates 2 dunes away, when he introduced himself, he said what God promised. When he introduced himself to strangers, he said what God had promised. Did change happen over night? Most certainly not, but it did come. I am searching for a way to speed up that change.

We have to follow in his steps (Rom 4:12) by seeing and saying. There are many other scriptures that tie in to this, but it's past midnight here.

Do you see where I'm coming from.


Cheers

Freek

Firefighter
Mar 31st 2010, 01:18 AM
Do you have any scriptural examples from the NT in which Christians were instructed to do such things???

mcgyver
Mar 31st 2010, 02:16 AM
I must commend your fervor and desire to re-kindle as it were a love of God's word; yet there are some things that are bothersome to me, in that I see the danger of falling into gnosticism in your approach.


I am working on an explanation, but have difficulty setting it out in a logical manner. A good place to start will be a study of the Hebrew word Hagaw Strongs Ref Nr H1897. Look at the different actions included in the meaning of this Word. Imagine, speak, mutter, study. Our imagination is a powerful "tool" created by God. Let's use it for His glory and His glory alone rather than hagawing over some girl in a p0rn magazine. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Make the Word come alive when you meditate on David and Goliath. Add detail. What went through his mind when he took the lunches to his brothers and heard the giant talking a lot of bull? When you meditate on the wars of Israel, you get to a place where you can literally taste the sand in your mouth. Then the Word has come alive for you. :D

Although I see what you are driving at, and to a large extent agree; yet we can add details and images that are nowhere to be found in the text. Our imaginations must at all times be subordinate to the instruction and leading of the Holy Spirit, for it is He who brings to our knowlege a deeper understanding of the word and indeed bring the word of God to life for us.


God told Joshua, this Book of the Law should stay in your mouth. How does it stay in your mouth? By speaking it. Psalms 1:1-3 says Blessed is the man... and goes on to describe these blessings. Paul tells us to renew our minds with the Word of God and hagaw is the key, but we lost it.Here is where I start having a bit of a problem with your assertions. In the Levitical Law, there are 365 "thou shalt not's" and 248 "Thou must do's"; which is the entire body of the law. The phrase "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth" is idiomatic, and may be translated: "Study this Book of Instruction continually."

I believe that we see this in both of the passages of scripture quoted above: 1 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. In this we see both an action (not walking in the ways of the world) and a heart's desire to seek the things of God (verse 2); Meditates day and night, inwardly and to the very depths of the soul.

In Romans 12:1-2 we see the same thing for the Christian: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. An act of will on our part (I beseech you therefore...) to align our will with God's will, to once again seek Him at the very deepest level.

This has very little to do with "speaking forth" and much to do with the attitude of the heart.


God took Abram and worked with him. He had to get Abram to believe. Remember Abram looked at an empty crib for decades and had strongholds in his mind that had to come down. It's very interesting to study how God did it. :D He took him outside and showed him the stars. Why? To kickstart Abrams imagination. Same with the sand by day. To kickstart his imagination.

The second thing God did was to change his name to Abraham. Why? To get him to say what God said. Every time he went to visit his mates 2 dunes away, when he introduced himself, he said what God promised. When he introduced himself to strangers, he said what God had promised. Did change happen over night? Most certainly not, but it did come. I am searching for a way to speed up that change.This is where I think that (from the way you have written this portion) we start to really get into a type of gnosticism. God did not show Abraham the stars to "kick start" his imagination, rather it was clear visual imagery showing God's promise. Abram already had faith (Heb 11) when he left Ur of the Chaldees at the bidding of the Lord. The name change was once again a reminder of God's promise: Abram means "Father is exalted" whereas Abraham means "Father of a multitude". Abraham didn't have to have his faith "kick started", Abraham had faith already and was found to please God.

We've got to be very careful not to go to one extreme or the other, and it seems that you are wanting to go that way (and I say it kindly)

Freek
Mar 31st 2010, 06:11 PM
Mc Gyver wrote: Although I see what you are driving at, and to a large extent agree; yet we can add details and images that are nowhere to be found in the text. Our imaginations must at all times be subordinate to the instruction and leading of the Holy Spirit, for it is He who brings to our knowlege a deeper understanding of the word and indeed bring the word of God to life for us.

I agree that we can. Sometimes, if you do that, the text will not make sense. Other times, you get amazing revelations. What does the parable of the Prodical son teach about tithes and offerings? :D To few people are lead by the Holy Spirit, yet they all claim to be. God is not confused. He will not tell you that a scripture means X and tell me that the same scripture means Y. That is a big problem. Conduct a poll and you will see that most claim to be lead by the Holy Spirit, yet their understanding of scripture differs as day and night.

Personally I think that the claim "I am lead by the Holy Spirit" should not be allowed, especially here on the forum, because it creates the impression that God does not have a clue of what is written in His Word.

Mc Gyver wrote: Here is where I start having a bit of a problem with your assertions. In the Levitical Law, there are 365 "thou shalt not's" and 248 "Thou must do's"; which is the entire body of the law. The phrase*"This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth"*is idiomatic, and may be translated:*"Study this Book of Instruction continually."*

The Torah was all that Joshua had. We have the full council of God. Nowhere do I get the idea that it is idiomatic. Why do you think that? Remember the action words used to describe the fullness of Hagaw. We all study, but no-one speaks and no-one imagines. The world has taken these principles and ran with it and have the church thinking that it is from the devil. How would Joshua have meditated? By saying, I do not kill. I am a man who does not kill, because God commanded me not to. I will serve no other gods, but me and my house, we will serve the Lord God, Jehovah. He would “see” himself doing that and “see” the success and prosperity that God promised. etc

How should we do it? By saying, I can do all thing through Christ who strengthens me and other personalized scriptures.

How does the world do this? I quote from http://www.successconsciousness.com/index_00000a.htm


It is advisable to repeat affirmations that are not too long, as they are easier to remember. Repeat them anytime your mind is not engaged in something in particular, such as while traveling in a bus or a train, waiting in line, walking etc, but do not affirm while driving or crossing a street. You may also repeat them in special sessions of 5-10 minutes each, several times a day.

I am healthy and happy.

- Wealth is pouring into my life.

- I am sailing on the river of wealth.

- I am getting wealthier each day.

- My body is healthy and functioning in a very good way.

- I have a lot of energy.

- I study and comprehend fast.

- My mind is calm.

- I am calm and relaxed in every situation.


Do you see the difference? God and His Word has been taken out of the exercise.

Mc Gyver wrote: I believe that we see this in both of the passages of scripture quoted above:*1 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.*In this we see both an action (not walking in the ways of the world) and a heart's desire to seek the things of God (verse 2);*Meditates day and night, inwardly and to the very depths of the soul.

We don't see only a heart's desire. We also see another action. Meditating is actively speaking and imagining and studying God's Word.

Mc Gyver wrote: In Romans 12:1-2 we see the same thing for the Christian:*1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.*An act of will on our part (I beseech you therefore...) to align our will with God's will, to once again seek Him at the very deepest level.

This has very little to do with "speaking forth" and much to do with the attitude of the heart.

How do you change the attitude of your heart. How would you align your will with God's will and how would you seek Him at the very deepest level. This all sound very good and dandy and very religious. It is by speaking and “seeing” the Word of God that our minds are renewed. In this way the Word becomes part of our DNA so to speak.

Everybody has strongholds in their minds. It can be wrong doctrine or something else that holds us back from being who God wants us to be. The world addresses the problem in the way quoted above. God's Word tells us to do exactly the same. How does it work?

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; ) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. (2Co 10:3-6)

How does it work? God said, Is not my word like as a fire? and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? (Jer 23:29)

Let's say that you have an ingrained wrong doctrine, something that has been pounded into you for years. Remember Abram looked at an empty crib for decades. The fact that he and Sarah could not have children, even when she was young was embedded deep in his mind. Then God came and took His Word, mixed it with what Abram saw and said and in so doing helped Abraham to get faith for his miracle. It set a pattern for us to follow as Paul explained in Romans 4:12.

Every time we say God's Word it is a blow of the Hammer and slowly but surely the bricks are loosed, until that strong hold has been removed and replaced with correct doctrine. Let's assume that for decades, it has been pounded into someone that tongues are not for today. Then he or she realizes that it is wrong and now wants to speak the mysteries of God. Just that decision – although it is a good one - is not enough to get what you want, which is a heavenly language by which the Holy Spirit communicates the mysteries of God to you. You need to get hold of the Hammer and break down that stronghold to resurrect your hope, which faith can then give substance to.

Mc Gyver wrote: This is where I think that (from the way you have written this portion) we start to really get into a type of gnosticism. God did not show Abraham the stars to "kick start" his imagination, rather it was clear visual imagery showing God's promise. Abram already had faith (Heb 11) when he left Ur of the Chaldees at the bidding of the Lord. The name change was once again a reminder of God's promise: Abram means*"Father is exalted"*whereas Abraham means*"Father of a multitude". Abraham didn't have to have his faith "kick started", Abraham had faith already and was found to please God.

Picture this in your mind. Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? (Gen 17:17)

A ninety nine year old man falling on his stomach, laughing out loud. I wonder what was so funny? Must have been a dirty joke or something. :D I wonder what did they joke about in those days? It does not look like faith for offspring to me.

Same with Sarah, Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? (Gen 18:12)

Sarah is quite blunt here, don't you think. :D

Once again, it does not look like faith for offspring to me.

Then something changed in the next verse. God said, Is anything to hard for the Lord and within 3 months she was pregnant.

Mc Gyver wrote: We've got to be very careful not to go to one extreme or the other, and it seems that you are wanting to go that way (and I say it kindly)

Show me how to get more extreme with God's Word. I want to be a hardcore Word man, but I also stay true to Scripture.

I had to go look up what Gnostism is. Apparently it is:


A collective name for a large number of greatly-varying and*pantheistic-idealistic*sects, which flourished from some*time*before the Christian Era*down to the fifth century, and which, while borrowing the phraseology and some of the tenets of the chief*religions of the day, and especially of*Christianity, held*matter*to be a deterioration of*spirit, and the whole*universe*a depravation of the Deity, and taught the ultimate end of all being to be the overcoming of the grossness of*matter*and the return to the Parent-Spirit, which return they held to be inaugurated and facilitated by the appearance of some God-sent Saviour.

Whether this is correct, I don't know, but nothing that I wrote even hints at applying the tenets in this definition.

I have noticed that you ignored the fullness of the Strongs definition of the word Hagaw and only concentrated on the study facet thereof. Is there a reason for that? I would also like you to point out the dangers of continually affirming God's Word to your soul. Please.

Freek
Mar 31st 2010, 07:06 PM
Did you see that the Holy Spirit does not perform the unspoken Word of God. Not even for God the Father. It has to be spoken. Go check it out. It's in the Bible. What makes us think that He will be softer on us?

Ryan R
Mar 31st 2010, 09:47 PM
I’m only back because this is just unbearable.


We all study, but no-one speaks and no-one imagines.

That is because imagining is warned against, as seen in the verse you quote later in your post:

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.” (2Co 10:3-6).

Here the Bible clearly tells us to cast down imaginations and that they are against the knowledge of God.


The world has taken these principles and ran with it and have the church thinking that it is from the devil.

Because the Bible clearly says they are.


How would Joshua have meditated? By saying, I do not kill. I am a man who does not kill, because God commanded me not to. I will serve no other gods, but me and my house, we will serve the Lord God, Jehovah. He would “see” himself doing that and “see” the success and prosperity that God promised. etc

What? Says who?

The Bible doesn’t say that he did, you do. You are making things up that contradict the Bible and attributing the authority of the Bible to them. This is called lying:
“Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar” (Proverbs 30:5-6).

We don't see only a heart's desire. We also see another action. Meditating is actively speaking and imagining and studying God's Word.

No it’s not. The Bible never says it is, you do.

Actively speaking and imagining things that you want and trying to tap into a power source to actualize them is casting spells.

Once again, you are trying to attribute things to the Word that the Word outright condemns. The Bible tells us not trust in imaginings, but in every Word spoken by God (not ourselves).

“When you pray, don't babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again” (Matthew 6:7).

You’ve have a formula that’s imagined out of the white space between the lines of the scriptural text, that contradicts the text directly at every step, and you are trying to bait and switch your words and imaginings for God’s Holy word. That’s all.


How do you change the attitude of your heart. How would you align your will with God's will and how would you seek Him at the very deepest level. This all sound very good and dandy and very religious. It is by speaking and “seeing” the Word of God that our minds are renewed. In this way the Word becomes part of our DNA so to speak.

Show me in the Bible where it says to do this.


Everybody has strongholds in their minds. It can be wrong doctrine

Like the ones you are advocating here.


or something else that holds us back from being who God wants us to be. The world addresses the problem in the way quoted above. God's Word tells us to do exactly the same.

It really doesn’t. How many times and in how many ways does it need to say otherwise?

See this is the problem. You imagine some stuff, actualize it with repetition, and it becomes to you important, despite the fact that it is vain imaginings, added to the Word of God, that are in direct conflict with the Word of God, but you’ve sanctified them with your magical process here.


How does it work?

Through blasphemy and witchcraft.


How does it work? God said, Is not my word like as a fire? and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? (Jer 23:29)

Yes, God’s word is, but you’re advocating making up your own, and vainly babbling God’s word and insisting (despite what the Bible says) that this is what God wants.


Let's say that you have an ingrained wrong doctrine,

Let’s say you have...


something that has been pounded into you for years. Remember Abram looked at an empty crib for decades. The fact that he and Sarah could not have children, even when she was young was embedded deep in his mind. Then God came and took His Word, mixed it with what Abram saw

Sorry, what? Mixed it with what Abram saw? What does that even mean? His Word is unchanging, “Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89)


and said and in so doing helped Abraham to get faith for his miracle.

Where do you get this from? The Bible tells us that Abraham was chosen and rewarded because of his faith:

“By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going” (Hebrews 11:8).

But you’re just making stuff up to try to justify things that are spoken against in scripture.


It set a pattern for us to follow as Paul explained in Romans 4:12.

Only to someone who wants to make up a pattern out of delusions of what’s in the subtext, which outright contradict the actual commandments in the text, and project these delusions onto other parts of scripture to justify their Gnostic assumptions.


Every time we say God's Word it is a blow of the Hammer and slowly but surely the bricks are loosed, until that strong hold has been removed and replaced with correct doctrine. Let's assume

I think you’ve done enough assuming.


that for decades, it has been pounded into someone that tongues are not for today. Then he or she realizes that it is wrong and now wants to speak the mysteries of God. Just that decision – although it is a good one - is not enough to get what you want, which is a heavenly language by which the Holy Spirit communicates the mysteries of God to you. You need to get hold of the Hammer and break down that stronghold to resurrect your hope, which faith can then give substance to.

These are stories, not doctrines from the Bible.


Picture this in your mind. Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? (Gen 17:17)

You say to picture it in your mind (which we’re not supposed to do... read Deuteronomy 4, for crying out loud what could the Bible possibly have to include to convince you not to make believe things of spiritual significance?) and then you cite Genesis, as though the fiction you present is what happened there.

Genesis 17:17 is an account, and you have replaced it with what you pretend to be the case, instead of trusting in the Word of God that tells you what was and is the case, and includes everything that you need to know about the case (2 Tim. 3:16-17).


A ninety nine year old man falling on his stomach, laughing out loud. I wonder what was so funny? Must have been a dirty joke or something. :D I wonder what did they joke about in those days? It does not look like faith for offspring to me.

What do you mean? To you it looks however you’re pretending it to look.


Show me how to get more extreme with God's Word. I want to be a hardcore Word man, but I also stay true to Scripture.

Then look at it and trust what it says, don’t make up things and follow them instead.

His Word is the lamp unto our feet, not our imaginations, nor our babbling – how could these things profit, since “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD” (Isaiah 55:8).

These things are at best barriers to our comprehension of the Word. There is not actualization potential, nor any other new age fiction in the word, and mediation means meditation, not works, and not spell casting. There is nothing in what you have presented that demonstrates that any of these concepts are Biblical. You are just taking parts of the Bible, adding what you want to them, and then presenting what you’ve added as though it has merit. It doesn’t.

“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear” (2 Tim 4:3).

Freek
Mar 31st 2010, 10:14 PM
Ryan, welcome back!! Did you lie when you said you will not participate in this thread anymore? :D Glad to have you back. You have addressed the points with scripture reading that even I who do not speak English as a first language can see is wrong and by taking things that I wrote out of context. You are deliberately trying to derail the thread and I respectfully ask you to refrain from that. You should check out my thread in the contro section. I think you will ... whatever.

Ryan R
Mar 31st 2010, 10:21 PM
Ryan, welcome back!! Did you lie when you said you will not participate in this thread anymore? :D

I let me 'yes' be 'yes' and my 'no' be 'no', which is subject to circumstance, unlike altering the word of God.


Glad to have you back. You have addressed the points with scripture reading that even I who do not speak English as a first language can see is wrong and by taking things that I wrote out of context.

... and yet you will find yourself completely incapable of demonstrating how.

You'll pardon me for not taking your word for it, but I noticed you didn't even try to demonstrate this. I submit it is because you can't, because your accusation that I am wrong and am taking you out of context is false.

Go ahead and try to prove me wrong.


Are you deliberately trying to derail the thread or do you really want to find out how it works? You should check out my thread in the contro section. I think you will ... whatever.

It doesn't work, and the only way it claims to is through mysticism, which I've already pointed out and my objective is to demonstrate it is unbiblical, and you've failed to prove otherwise.

Frecs
Apr 1st 2010, 12:19 AM
Ryan, welcome back!! Did you lie when you said you will not participate in this thread anymore? :D Glad to have you back. You have addressed the points with scripture reading that even I who do not speak English as a first language can see is wrong and by taking things that I wrote out of context. You are deliberately trying to derail the thread and I respectfully ask you to refrain from that. You should check out my thread in the contro section. I think you will ... whatever.

Freek, my friend, we agree in many things but in this case I have to say you are in err. You have added to scripture which I'm sure you know is a sin and a great danger. You need to ask God to open your spiritual eyes to the err of your beliefs in this area.

mcgyver
Apr 1st 2010, 02:33 AM
Hello Freek...

Gnosticism in the original sense and meaning of the word was to have a "special" or "secret" knowledge that somehow gave one greater insight into the mysteries of God. Gnosticsm threatened to destroy the early church, and in fact the 1st Epistle of John was written to refute the gnostic heresies being promoted by Cerenthus...but I digress.


Did you see that the Holy Spirit does not perform the unspoken Word of God. Not even for God the Father. It has to be spoken. Go check it out. It's in the Bible. What makes us think that He will be softer on us?

This my friend is flat wrong...for the Holy Spirit is Himself God. No where in the Bible is there any requirement wherein something has to be spoken before the Holy Spirit responds.

This concept, the "positive confession" or "power of positive thinking" or whatever one wishes to name it reduces God from the sovereign Lord to a servant of man. This is nothing more than mysticism packaged for the 21st century, and is in fact denounced in the word of God.

This is where I'm afraid that you've slipped over the edge into some New Age beliefs...