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Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 01:32 AM
In Matthew 25:1-13 we read the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins.

My question is... are all 10 saved?

BruceG
Mar 25th 2010, 01:52 AM
In Matthew 25:1-13 we read the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins.

My question is... are all 10 saved?

All ten thought they were. All ten talked like they were. All ten had clean cups outwardly. The issue was what was found on the inside.

I would suspect if there were five weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth with the gate closed on them, preventing them from joining the marriage supper of the lamb, I suspect the correct answer would be five, no? How we need to remember, bowing the knee once is not going to cut it. Our entire life is to be lived with that same knoee bowed. It is "He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved."

How this ought to drive us to our knees, seeking God to examine our hearts to make sure that they are His and not our own. The scary thing about deception is that it is deceiving! Those lukewarm saints in Laodecia really did not know that were playing with God, but not wholeheartedly sold out to the kingdom to come. Better to be spewed out now than when it is too late.

Where is our only protection from deception? Walking in God's holiness. Being clothed with His very life. It is the only safe place.

"Beware lest your hearts be hardened thru the deceitfulness of sin, in departing from the living God."

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 01:59 AM
[SIZE="4"][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]All ten thought they were. All ten talked like they were. All ten had clean cups outwardly. The issue was what was found on the inside.Let me comment on this statement... all ten did have one common denominator and this is pointed out in v8: 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

If the ones who were foolish were not saved... then why do they even "have" lamps that are "capable" of going out? If they were not saved, they'd not have lamps lit that are now going out do to their foolishness.

So where all 10 saved?

Vhayes
Mar 25th 2010, 02:03 AM
The 'oil' is the Holy Spirit. One is not saved without the Holy Spirit. One can carry the lamp all they want - if there is no oil, there is no salvation. And what is the stamp of the Holy Spirit? Love.

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 02:16 AM
The 'oil' is the Holy Spirit. One is not saved without the Holy Spirit. One can carry the lamp all they want - if there is no oil, there is no salvation. And what is the stamp of the Holy Spirit? Love.All 10, based on v8 had oil at one time so there is salvation for all 10, at one time. Yet in the end, only 5 made it... even though all at one time began with their oil otherwise we'd not read what we do in v8.

I agree, oil is the Holy Spirit and this is how the lamp is kept lit so Jesus can shine from them... but only 5 kept shining.

So... were all 10 at one time, saved?

Amos_with_goats
Mar 25th 2010, 03:43 AM
Oh Slug... where shall this go?

First, what a great parable. Who can take issue with the Lord's teaching? What all was He telling us here?

- ten virgins... 5 foolish....
- Their lamps COULD go out... the oil obviously COULD run out... right? or why mention it? (see Rev 2, where the Ephesians were warned).
- This idea that 'watching' is enough is obviously not true.... many conversations can launch from this idea...

Good stuff... great stuff... lets see where everyone else goes with this...

Nihil Obstat
Mar 25th 2010, 04:07 AM
I think that the plain meaning of the parable is that the midnight herald is John the Baptist (cf. 3:1-3), the virgins are symbolic for all of Judea (cf. 3:5), and the bridegroom is Yahweh (cf. 9:15; 25:13) - Immanuel, "God with man" in the Person of Jesus, both the Son of Man and the Son of God. The wise are those who heed the voice of Yahweh's prophets, and the foolish are those who do not, but instead lean upon their ethnicity (cf. 7:24-27). The oil and the lamps are word-pictures to describe "seeing / watching", which is synonymous with having ears to hear the message of the prophets. The last prophet, the one who cries at midnight, is consistently said to be John the Baptist (cf. 11:11-15). Jesus' point? Only those who listen to John will enter the kingdom (21:28-32); those who did not will surely not listen to Jesus' words, for they spoke the same message (3:2; 4:17; 11:16-19) with the same authority (21:23-27). The wise will, as Noah was, be "taken / received" into the ark / wedding, while the foolish will be "left / denied" outside in the great deluge / judgment (24:36-42). This deluge occurred in 70 AD, putting this parable completely in context with the Olivet Discourse where Jesus details the events surrounding the destruction of the temple (24:1-3 ff). So were the foolish virgins saved? No, they were not saved. They were not like the wheat which would be gathered into the barn, but were like the chaff which would be burned with unquenchable fire (3:12; 13:24-30, 36-43, 47-50; cf. Jer. 15:5-8). When the trouble came, they fell, and great was their fall (7:26-27).

Ta-An
Mar 25th 2010, 11:30 AM
I think that the plain meaning of the parable is that the midnight herald is John the Baptist (cf. 3:1-3), the virgins are symbolic for all of Judea (cf. 3:5), and the bridegroom is Yahweh (cf. 9:15; 25:13) - Immanuel, "God with man" in the Person of Jesus, both the Son of Man and the Son of God. The wise are those who heed the voice of Yahweh's prophets, and the foolish are those who do not, but instead lean upon their ethnicity (cf. 7:24-27). The oil and the lamps are word-pictures to describe "seeing / watching", which is synonymous with having ears to hear the message of the prophets. The last prophet, the one who cries at midnight, is consistently said to be John the Baptist (cf. 11:11-15). Jesus' point? Only those who listen to John will enter the kingdom (21:28-32); those who did not will surely not listen to Jesus' words, for they spoke the same message (3:2; 4:17; 11:16-19) with the same authority (21:23-27). The wise will, as Noah was, be "taken / received" into the ark / wedding, while the foolish will be "left / denied" outside in the great deluge / judgment (24:36-42). This deluge occurred in 70 AD, putting this parable completely in context with the Olivet Discourse where Jesus details the events surrounding the destruction of the temple (24:1-3 ff). So were the foolish virgins saved? No, they were not saved. They were not like the wheat which would be gathered into the barn, but were like the chaff which would be burned with unquenchable fire (3:12; 13:24-30, 36-43, 47-50; cf. Jer. 15:5-8). When the trouble came, they fell, and great was their fall (7:26-27).

To take this one step further....

All 10 were virgins, thus all 10 had equal opportunity to meet the Bridegroom... thus they all knew the Bridegroom. (Remember in Jewish culture, like Jesus said He is going to prepare a place...and when the Father says the place is ready, then the Groom comes to fetch the Bride)

So we see here
The Groom..... Jesus
The Bride........ ??
10 Virgins, 5 wise and 5 not so wise.??

So who is the Bride and who are the Virgins.... ?? :hmm:

But to not get side tracked from the OP. :D

The 10 virgins all had opportunity to wait for the Groom to come., but for 5 their oil ran out....

What is the Oil??
Turn the focus off the virgins.... they lacked OIL.... What does the oil resemble?? :hmm:

Oil, to me is a symbol of faith and hope and love... and joy... and relationship.... and yes Holy Spirit presence ...
Are people getting too tired to persevere in their waiting for the return of Messiah??
Are they giving up, is their hope failing?
Is their faith dwindling??
Does all this cause their love for their Lord to run out, are they becoming cold in their love for Jesus. .... are they falling prey to hopelessness?? Is their oil running out??

I am thinking of the scripture "....my cup runneth over..."Ps 23:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi)Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. ... and there is there oil :pp Oh what joy.... when the Lord is my Shepherd :pp

Remember, by saying I am a Christian, does not make me one, if I lose the qualifying qualities thereof .....

Therefor: Heb 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Can you lose your hope, you faith your love....???

Ta-An
Mar 25th 2010, 01:30 PM
Next question is:
Why were they called :"Foolish" :hmm:

Surely when you wait for something,,,, you prepare?? Do you pack food and sarmies and coffee in when you go on a long drive on holiday? Do you pack clean clothes when you go on holiday??? It is all about being prepared....

10 virgins going to a feast (Holiday) half of them did not pack clothes... Be prepared to meet with God when it is time... :)

HisLeast
Mar 25th 2010, 01:37 PM
If the ones who were foolish were not saved... then why do they even "have" lamps that are "capable" of going out? If they were not saved, they'd not have lamps lit that are now going out do to their foolishness.

So where all 10 saved?

Is it possible that there's some metaphor mixing here? Are we certain that in this story the lamps necessarily meant salvation?

Amos_with_goats
Mar 25th 2010, 01:49 PM
Good stuff... good stuff

Foolish indeed....

I should say that the night was longer then they thought, would your agree?

How many have you known who have 'fizzled out' because their faith has been a passing fad? Can you recall anyone? What about some of those who were influenced by blockbuster movies? Long running book series>?

We had a well known 'revival' in the area I live. It is in an area considered the 'bad' part of town. Many of those I speak to while street witnessing remember the 'revival'. They recall it fondly but sadly their lives do not reflect a lasting result of something they might have thought to have found there.....

I believe that one can not blame the oil when it runs out, but rather the one who choose no longer to seek it.

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 01:58 PM
Is it possible that there's some metaphor mixing here? Are we certain that in this story the lamps necessarily meant salvation?This is a great point and not only can it be addressed but needs to be addressed.

Well... and I'm brainstorming, those who don't have a lamp which can represent the light of Christ in us are ones who don't have a relationship in Christ. To even have a relationship in Christ one must have been saved. They are now in Christ, Christ is in them and His light shines. The oil which enables the lamp to shine is the Holy Spirit, through the Holy Spirit we are enabled, the lamp is fueled.

All 10 had this in the beginning, only 5 maintained and were accepted to participate in the "wedding".

So were all 10 saved and only 5 overcame and received their salvation? Yes, I am purposly rewording this question each time.

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 02:01 PM
10 virgins going to a feast (Holiday) half of them did not pack clothes... Be prepared to meet with God when it is time... :)But if you are once saved always saved... being prepared till the end don't matter. All that matters is getting that lamp and the oil at the moment of accepting Christ.... right???? :P

notuptome
Mar 25th 2010, 02:01 PM
This parable is not speaking of salvation. The 10 virgins represent Israel. The lamps are the word of God given through Israel as Gods elect. The oil is the Holy Spirit yet in OT Israel relationship His presence is not the same as NT grace. All of Israel has the word of God. They delighted in having the word of God yet they did not receive what the word was teaching. Only the wise virgins were ready when the bridegroom Messiah came. Yet all were expecting Messiah to come but not according to a correct knowledge of the word of God. This parable is illustrating those who were not only looking for the promise but were prepared to receive it.

An application can be drawn to salvation in Christ but that is not the original intent of the parable. Many in this country have heard the word and have heard that they must be saved but they do not receive it into their hearts so that they might be saved. A head knowledge only and not a heart receiveing unto eternal life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Kahtar
Mar 25th 2010, 02:06 PM
All ten were called to the wedding.
All ten were waiting for the coming of the groom.
All ten were 'light bearers', with lamps.
All ten had oil at the start.
All ten were found sleeping.
Five did not have sufficient oil. They remained in outer darkness. The groom said 'I know you not'.
The running out of oil, and the 'I know you not', I think are very closely tied.
It has been said so many times, Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship. 'I know you not' suggests a lack of relationship.
We see much the same thing in another place, where Jesus said 'In that day many will stand before me and say.......' and are met with the same response, 'Depart from me, I never knew you'.
One person says the magic formula for salvation, and believes he's safe. Another really means what he's saying, and finds a relationship with a close and loving Friend.

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 02:09 PM
Many in this country have heard the word and have heard that they must be saved but they do not receive it into their hearts so that they might be saved. A head knowledge only and not a heart receiveing unto eternal life.

For the cause of Christ
RogerSee this is where statements like this don't make sense to me. We clearly read that all 10 had lamps and all ten had oil once. So this clearly shows us that all 10 did receive in their hearts. If they didn't, then those who didn't would not have a lamp and oil.

I agree that many do have a head knowledge but that's not the case in this scripture due to the fact all 10 had lamps and all 10 had oil... only that 5 maintained the oil.

Roger do you think this is a good example of abiding in Christ and Christ abiding in them (those five) to the very end?

notuptome
Mar 25th 2010, 02:11 PM
But if you are once saved always saved... being prepared till the end don't matter. All that matters is getting that lamp and the oil at the moment of accepting Christ.... right???? :P
You ought not to shoehorn the security of the believer into this parable. It does not fit. Jude verse 1 refers to them that are sanctified by God as preserved in Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 02:13 PM
You ought not to shoehorn the security of the believer into this parable. It does not fit. Jude verse 1 refers to them that are sanctified by God as preserved in Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWell, there are two other separate parables that support this one if you want me to drop them in here :hmm:

Ta-An
Mar 25th 2010, 02:16 PM
But if you are once saved always saved... being prepared till the end don't matter. All that matters is getting that lamp and the oil at the moment of accepting Christ.... right???? :P

Catch this one Slug.... All 10 were chosen, yet only 5 exercised their free will to choose to accept to run the race of fellowship and in relationship with the Bridegroom :D

mcgyver
Mar 25th 2010, 02:18 PM
All ten were called to the wedding.
All ten were waiting for the coming of the groom.
All ten were 'light bearers', with lamps.
All ten had oil at the start.
All ten were found sleeping.
Five did not have sufficient oil. They remained in outer darkness. The groom said 'I know you not'.
The running out of oil, and the 'I know you not', I think are very closely tied.
It has been said so many times, Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship. 'I know you not' suggests a lack of relationship.
We see much the same thing in another place, where Jesus said 'In that day many will stand before me and say.......' and are met with the same response, 'Depart from me, I never knew you'.
One person says the magic formula for salvation, and believes he's safe. Another really means what he's saying, and finds a relationship with a close and loving Friend.

I would agree with this interpretation, and I think that we must be careful not to over-spiritualize the meaning here....since this is an example taken from a "slice" of Jewish life at the time.

I think that in the broadest sense, that this parable speaks primarily to two things:

1. I think that it warns us that there are certain things that can not be obtained at the last minute. How many I wonder are putting off preparing themselves for the coming of Christ in order to enjoy the things of the world?

2. I think that it warns us that certain things may not be borrowed, to wit: One can not borrow a relationship with God, he must have it for himself.

I think that within the context of 1st century Jewish culture, that this parable does not speak so much to being saved in reference to the 10 virgins, but rather to being prepared for the coming of the Bridegroom; Christ.

JMO

notuptome
Mar 25th 2010, 02:23 PM
See this is where statements like this don't make sense to me. We clearly read that all 10 had lamps and all ten had oil once. So this clearly shows us that all 10 did receive in their hearts. If they didn't, then those who didn't would not have a lamp and oil.

I agree that many do have a head knowledge but that's not the case in this scripture due to the fact all 10 had lamps and all 10 had oil... only that 5 maintained the oil.

Roger do you think this is a good example of abiding in Christ and Christ abiding in them (those five) to the very end?
It is simple. You are confusing the relationship of Israel to Messiah to the relationship of the church to Christ. The religious leaders in Israel determined that Jesus was not the Messiah they wanted.

A saving relationship is not created until one goes in unto the bridgroom. Study this parable from an OT perspective not a NT perspective.

Jesus was teaching the Jews that even though they had sat in the temple from their birth they had not paid any attention to what was taught. Very much like the multitude in the modern church who hear but do not receive and believe. Polishing a pew with your backside does not a Christian make.

While all ten had heard the word only five believed the word and were ready when the bridegroom arrived.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 02:23 PM
Catch this one Slug.... All 10 were chosen, yet only 5 exercised their free will to choose to accept :DSo are you saying that only a limited amount in the world have the lamp and oil (Christ and the Holy Spirit) in their posession but only a limited amount choose to keep the lamp filled? What about the rest who aren't "chosen"?? They have no chance to receive a lamp (accept Christ) and maintain this lamp?

notuptome
Mar 25th 2010, 02:26 PM
Well, there are two other separate parables that support this one if you want me to drop them in here :hmm:
Don't mean that they support the idea that one can lose their salvation. 'Cause that ain't in the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amos_with_goats
Mar 25th 2010, 02:27 PM
So are you saying that only a limited amount in the world have the lamp and oil (Christ and the Holy Spirit) in their posession but only a limited amount choose to keep the lamp filled? What about the rest who aren't "chosen"?? They have no chance to receive a lamp (accept Christ) and maintain this lamp?

The plot thickens..... :).

Ta-An
Mar 25th 2010, 02:29 PM
So are you saying that only a limited amount in the world have the lamp and oil (Christ and the Holy Spirit) in their posession but only a limited amount choose to keep the lamp filled? What about the rest who aren't "chosen"?? They have no chance to receive a lamp (accept Christ) and maintain this lamp?

All 10 were chosen/called to wait upon the Groom.... all 10, the whole party were chosen... it is what they did or did not do with the invitation :)

Amos_with_goats
Mar 25th 2010, 02:33 PM
All 10 were chosen/called to wait upon the Groom.... all 10, the whole party were chosen... it is what they did or did not do with the invitation :)

Or more what they "continued" to do or "failed" to continue doing?.... say for instance....

falling away>? (do I understand you to say)?

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 02:34 PM
It is simple. You are confusing the relationship of Israel to Messiah to the relationship of the church to Christ. The religious leaders in Israel determined that Jesus was not the Messiah they wanted.

A saving relationship is not created until one goes in unto the bridgroom. Study this parable from an OT perspective not a NT perspective.

Jesus was teaching the Jews that even though they had sat in the temple from their birth they had not paid any attention to what was taught. Very much like the multitude in the modern church who hear but do not receive and believe. Polishing a pew with your backside does not a Christian make. Yeah, I'm sure you've read my comments about the Pew Warming Ministry... not a good ministry to keep one self in.


While all ten had heard the word only five believed the word and were ready when the bridegroom arrived.Again, the way you say this I can't wrap my understanding around based on the scripture. To believe or not to believe is understandable but for one who didn't believe yet "has" a lamp and oil from the beginning but not maintained in the end don't make sense in relation to what you stated. The way you make your statement, then only 5 of the 10 would have lamps from the very beginning, not all 10.

Based on the parable, at one time all ten did "receive" and in your statement I'll assume this is relative to their belief in Christ. All 10 did, from the heart as the result is all 10 had a lamp with oil from the beginning. Only 5 in the end remained "full"... is that a good way to put it?

Again, if a person's belief in Christ is all it takes and they also recieve their lamps with oil... why do we have to read this warning of what happens if "foolishness" happens over the course of our relationship?

Nihil Obstat
Mar 25th 2010, 02:44 PM
... the lamp and oil (Christ and the Holy Spirit) ...

Again, within the passage itself Jesus interprets what the lamp and oil mean: "Watch, therefore." The lamp is the faculty by which one watches; the oil enables that faculty to function. All had heard the words of John and of Jesus, all had responded to their message (the sleepers awoke), but only those with ears to hear and eyes to see (13:9-17) would bear fruit; would be gathered; would remain standing through the storm; would enter into the wedding. The rest would be cut off (cf. Isa. 6).

Ta-An
Mar 25th 2010, 02:49 PM
Or more what they "continued" to do or "failed" to continue doing?.... say for instance....

falling away>? (do I understand you to say)?

Is what I am saying...... Thus you are correct in assuming I do not support OSAS :)

The number ten is a number that resembles the completion of a cycle.... (as in counting.... 1-10. from there on it is 10+1, and then groups of ten plus single digits) So I can nearly say a 'perfect number' all counting can be worked back to the base 10... and you have 10 fingers and 10 toes.... thus not a number that is 'limited' but a number that is 'perfect' as in all

Ta-An
Mar 25th 2010, 02:51 PM
..... the oil enables that faculty to function. The relationship factor :D

Dani H
Mar 25th 2010, 02:59 PM
Matthew 25 comes right after Matthew 24. No duh, right?

Here are some verses from that chapter, because the thought process and principles Jesus is touching on, go all the way through.

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

*Parable of the Virgins comes right after this*

Luke 11:33-36
“No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light. The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore, when your eye is good, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is bad, your body also is full of darkness. Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness. If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, the whole body will be full of light, as when the bright shining of a lamp gives you light

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 03:09 PM
Matthew 25 comes right after Matthew 24. No duh, right?

Here are some verses from that chapter, because the thought process and principles Jesus is touching on, go all the way through.

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

*Parable of the Virgins comes right after this*

Luke 11:33-36
“No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light. The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore, when your eye is good, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is bad, your body also is full of darkness. Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness. If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, the whole body will be full of light, as when the bright shining of a lamp gives you lightMt 24 is one of the chapters containing something else I want to say in this chapter but you brought it up... so, it's clear this is where we go now ;)

v13 states that anyone (paraphased since you posted the scripture) who stands firm to the "END" will be saved.

Is there any other way to understand the meaning of this scritpure other than to say... if you don't, you will not overcome and receive salvation? That salvation is only "possible" the moment a person accepts Christ but only "secured" by standing firm to the "END"?

Ta-An
Mar 25th 2010, 03:25 PM
Mt 24 is one of the chapters containing something else I want to say in this chapter but you brought it up... so, it's clear this is where we go now ;)

v13 states that anyone (paraphased since you posted the scripture) who stands firm to the "END" will be saved.

Is there any other way to understand the meaning of this scritpure other than to say... if you don't, you will not overcome and receive salvation? That salvation is only "possible" the moment a person accepts Christ but only "secured" by standing firm to the "END"?
Amen :) .

ClayInHisHands
Mar 25th 2010, 03:57 PM
That salvation is only "possible" the moment a person accepts Christ but only "secured" by standing firm to the "END"?



Unfortunately this sentence is what will make it sound like legalism, but it is not. Whenever "Christians" say they are offended by someone questioning their salvation...it's puzzling to me. The convicting of the Holy Spirit is meant to offend...not condemn...but offend in a way that causes you to put your walk in the Spirit into perspective.


In Christ's Love

Dani H
Mar 25th 2010, 03:59 PM
Well, if we carry the theme of "enduring until the end" through the epistles, we see it there being brought up also, over and over. It's a prevailing theme throughout all the epistles, and even Jesus touches on it in Revelation, and John wrote Revelation for the exact purpose of refocusing the believers on Jesus, so that they would be prepared of the testing and tribulation to come, and not lose hope and not lose faith in the Lord.

Run the race to the finish line.

Hold fast to what you've been taught.

Don't discard Jesus, the real Christ, by going back to the Law and trusting in the blood of bulls and goats.

Be aware of antichrists who present a false christ and a false gospel.

Be aware of false teachers that aren't here for your benefit but that seek to distract you and ensnare you away from the Lord because they only care about themselves and their own prominence among people.

Make your calling and election sure.

Examine yourself to see if you're in the faith.

Stand fast until Jesus returns, so He can complete His work in you. Look to the Author and Finisher of your faith, and don't turn your back on Him and think you can take it on by yourself now without daily relying on Him. Keep relying on the Spirit, and don't trust in your own abilities to keep yourself on track by adding to the Gospel other things that don't belong.

Offer your body a daily sacrifice.

Run so that you might obtain a crown in the end.

Discard the sin that so easily ensnares you, keep your focus, and don't be swayed.

On and on it goes.

Obviously, it's an important matter (if not the most important matter) that deserves addressing and being kept at the forefront.

Why do people fall away? Why do they seek other christs? Why is Jesus not enough? Why are we so easily seduced away from Him?

Firstfruits
Mar 25th 2010, 04:04 PM
In Matthew 25:1-13 we read the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins.

My question is... are all 10 saved?

They may have believed themselves to be saved, but were they all doing Gods will?

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Firstfruits

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 05:10 PM
They may have believed themselves to be saved, but were they all doing Gods will?

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

FirstfruitsOk... focus has been placed in something I am always drawn back to... God's will!

So... why do some (not all) Christians feel that acheiving salvation is a one shot deal? They accept Christ and that's it... wait for the end to come and ride up into heaven with Christ due to their act of acceptance of Him as their Savior. Some say, He does all the work from that point on but we have so much scripture bought out in this thread that proves otherwise. We are the ones that are "warned" to endure, to overcome, to make sure, to examine one self, to hold fast, run the race... ETC.

If once saved always save... why these warnings and encouragement from Jesus to endure or as He says... abide in Him.

What is proof a Christian is within God's will?

Is "fruit" one way to determine that a Christian is doing the will of God? Not "works" as we see in the scripture that you brought forth because much work that can be done isn't God's will, it's usually our will thus... no "fruit" is produced. We're doing works, and much good is done and high-5s all round and great atta' boys/girls all round! Seems good intention all in the name of Jesus really doesn't mean much when we read that Jesus warns us of what these works produce... based on the scripture you posted.

Your post begins with:


They may have believed themselves to be saved, but were they all doing Gods will?

We see that all 10 began with their lamps and oil so did they all "believe" they were saved? If their belief was false, fine... but then how did they "have" a lamp and oil from the beginning if their belief was false?

I have to understand this as a fact that their belief was true and they received Christ just didn't maintain, hold onto, endure, overcome etc.

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 05:17 PM
Unfortunately this sentence is what will make it sound like legalism, but it is not. Whenever "Christians" say they are offended by someone questioning their salvation...it's puzzling to me. The convicting of the Holy Spirit is meant to offend...not condemn...but offend in a way that causes you to put your walk in the Spirit into perspective.


In Christ's LoveYou really think that people reading that sentance will label it as "legalism" even though it's not? :hmm:

Perspective is a good word... in the perspective of this parable, it's very important to do all that we're told concerning enduring to the very end.

Salvation is for those who accepted Christ and then endured to the very end, not for those who accepted Christ and waited till the very end.

Ta-An
Mar 25th 2010, 05:26 PM
Salvation is for those who accepted Christ and then endured to the very end, not for those who accepted Christ and waited till the very end.Amen :)

BroRog
Mar 25th 2010, 06:04 PM
I don't think this parable was intended as an allegory, in which each element must have a corresponding association with something else. As such, I don't think the oil represents anything, and neither do the lamps, or the virgins. The parable is a simple, straightforward analogy intended to illustrate the effect of not being prepared. Had Aesop told this story, we would simply take away from it the practical lesson that being prepared for a long delay is always a good idea. Having gotten this lesson, we are prepared to apply it to what Jesus says earlier in the text, "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour."

We are then free to ask, "what must I do to prepare myself if the return of Jesus is delayed for an extended period of time?" What if I thought he was coming back in 45AD and he doesn't show up? What if the temple is destroyed in 70AD and he still hasn't come? What if I was expecting him to come in 1066?, or 1844, or 1988? Am I willing to wait as long as it takes?

The oil isn't supposed to represent the Holy Spirit or anything in particular. It's personal and subjective. The "oil" is whatever it takes for you personally to prepare yourself for an extended delay of the Lord's return. The wise will take those steps, whatever they are, to make sure that when the Lord doesn't return when you think he will, you will be able to wait longer than you expect. To run out of oil is to run out of patience, or trust, or vision, or clarity, or encouragement, or courage, or hope, or whatever it is for you. To run out of oil is to give up, to get discouraged to the point of hopelessness. What will it take to get you through such things as



Are they servants of Christ?--I speak as if insane--I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. 4Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches.

What kept Paul going? Whatever it is, you need to find it.



For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death works in us, but life in you.

What does it take; what do we need such that we will be "afflicted but not crushed; perplexed but not despairing; persecuted but not forsaken; struck down but not destroyed?" The oil is only the means to keep the lamps lit. What keeps the lights on for you?

Servant89
Mar 25th 2010, 07:18 PM
We need to let the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures.

The foolish had these 4 things in common with the wise:

1. They both had lamps (Thy word is a lamp to my feet), the lamp of the tarbernacle was made out or 7 branches with 9+9+9+12+9+9+9 parts = 39 + 27 = 66 which is the # of books in the OT(39) and NT(27). So lamp = Bible. Carrying a Bible does not ensure salvation.

2. They both had oil IN THEIR LAMPS. That means they both had Holy Spirit with their Bibles. And there are verses to back that up. For example...

Jn 6:63 ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

That means, the authour of the Bible speaks to us when we read it. Before the disciples were baptized in the HS, they HS was WITH them, but not IN them. Read it.

Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

3. They both slumbered and slept. That might mean we all have failed to watch for the signs of the second coming the way God wants us to. This has no bearing on salvation.

4. They both were waiting for the bridegroom. That does not ensure salvation either.

The one thing that was different is that the wise put oil IN THEIR VESSELS (in their bodies). According to the NT, vessels are people, o a study on it.

The key is the attitude about the oil (the HS). Many denominations today want nothing to do with getting more HS. They fight the notion that there is something wrong with them if they ask for that. THAT IS FOOLISHNESS !!!!!

The same disciples that got filled with the HS in Acts 2, got refilled in Acts 4:31. It is not a 2nd experience, it is a 3rd, a 4th, etc.

This is our mandate. The # 1 priority for the Christian should be Seek ye first the kingdom of God and that means getting filled with the HS, the oil of God.

Shalom

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 07:40 PM
The one thing that was different is that the wise put oil IN THEIR VESSELS (in their bodies). According to the NT, vessels are people, o a study on it.
Mt 25: 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

All 10 had oil at one time but only 5 maintained the oil and remained lit to the very end.

So were all 10 saved at one time and only 5 endured to the very end?

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 07:47 PM
I don't think this parable was intended as an allegory, in which each element must have a corresponding association with something else. As such, I don't think the oil represents anything, and neither do the lamps, or the virgins. The parable is a simple, straightforward analogy intended to illustrate the effect of not being prepared. Had Aesop told this story, we would simply take away from it the practical lesson that being prepared for a long delay is always a good idea. Having gotten this lesson, we are prepared to apply it to what Jesus says earlier in the text, "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour." I'll comment here then... who are those He's speaking to then? Those who are saved and need this warning of being prepared or to those not saved and can care less about this warning?

To those who are saved, why the warning at all if all there is, is to "be" saved and wait? It don't matter when Christ returns then.

It's critical to understand that if Christ is warning those who are saved, that they need to remain ready... so if all is secured the moment of acceptance (OSAS)... then there is no reason for any warning of remaining prapared for His return. He's wasting His breath directing such a warning to those who have accepted Him... yet He warns.

Servant89
Mar 25th 2010, 08:03 PM
Mt 25: 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

All 10 had oil at one time but only 5 maintained the oil and remained lit to the very end.

So were all 10 saved at one time and only 5 endured to the very end?

Good point. Good point!

If Jesus had returned earliers, all 10 would had gone in, because earlier they all had oil at one time. The lesson: Make it a priority to get more oil (more HS). This is God's plan for assurance of Salvation.

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Shalom

BroRog
Mar 25th 2010, 08:10 PM
I'll comment here then... who are those He's speaking to then? Those who are saved and need this warning of being prepared or to those not saved and can care less about this warning?

To those who are saved, why the warning at all if all there is, is to "be" saved and wait? It don't matter when Christ returns then.

It's critical to understand that if Christ is warning those who are saved, that they need to remain ready... so if all is secured the moment of acceptance (OSAS)... then there is no reason for any warning of remaining prepared for His return. He's wasting His breath directing such a warning to those who have accepted Him... yet He warns.I wouldn't come to a passage like this to answer my question about OSAS. Jesus isn't addressing that question here. However, he tells a story about four different kinds of soils in which the seed that falls on the good soil produces fruit to perseverance. One could say that the five wise virgins were like those who had the good and honest hearts, who didn't stop believing after persecution or the worries of the world. perseverance in belief is common to both parables.

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 08:11 PM
Good point. Good point!

If Jesus had returned earliers, all 10 would had gone in, because earlier they all had oil at one time. The lesson: Make it a priority to get more oil (more HS). This is God's plan for assurance of Salvation.

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

ShalomI wouldn't say it's a priority to "get" more but it is a natural result of a persons relationship in Christ. It's very clear to maintain an amount given, upon accepting Christ. All 10 still had "some" oil at the end, just that only 5 had the "required" amount while the other 5 didn't have the required amount. All still had faith despite their sleeping, all didn't make it and this is supported by the scriptures that FirstFruits posted and others have also mentioned in their posts.

Slug1
Mar 25th 2010, 08:16 PM
I wouldn't come to a passage like this to answer my question about OSAS. Jesus isn't addressing that question here. However, he tells a story about four different kinds of soils in which the seed that falls on the good soil produces fruit to perseverance. One could say that the five wise virgins were like those who had the good and honest hearts, who didn't stop believing after persecution or the worries of the world. perseverance in belief is common to both parables.Hooah, I can understand what you say here. I know this is only a single parable, there are others as well. The one right after this one, the Parable of the Talents and in Luke 13, The Barren Fig Tree are two good parables. They all support what Jesus says in John 15 about producing fruit and what happens if we don't allow God to use us to produce fruit.

BroRog
Mar 25th 2010, 08:53 PM
Hooah, I can understand what you say here. I know this is only a single parable, there are others as well. The one right after this one, the Parable of the Talents and in Luke 13, The Barren Fig Tree are two good parables. They all support what Jesus says in John 15 about producing fruit and what happens if we don't allow God to use us to produce fruit.

I'm not sure how you are defining "fruit", but the fruit in the parable of the four soils is perseverence in faith.

Bandit
Mar 25th 2010, 09:07 PM
In Matthew 25:1-13 we read the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins.

My question is... are all 10 saved?

All were saved to begin with - but some became lost along the way. Jesus intended this as a serious warning for His bride-to-be. (But most refuse such warnings.)

Nihil Obstat
Mar 25th 2010, 10:25 PM
The relationship factor :D

Sure, but even more broadly, in the least having the fear of God. Matthew was pretty good at showing how the pagans and the Romans acknowledged (rightly) that Jesus was the King, whereas the Jews vehemently denied such a thing and even proclaimed Caesar to be their only king.

Servant89
Mar 26th 2010, 02:01 AM
I wouldn't say it's a priority to "get" more but it is a natural result of a persons relationship in Christ. It's very clear to maintain an amount given, upon accepting Christ. All 10 still had "some" oil at the end, just that only 5 had the "required" amount while the other 5 didn't have the required amount. All still had faith despite their sleeping, all didn't make it and this is supported by the scriptures that FirstFruits posted and others have also mentioned in their posts.

The Scriptures say that we need to seek first the kingdom of God, that is our prority mandated by God. This is not my opinion. And it is such a high priority that God said that if we do this one thing (seeking his kingdom) all else will be added unto us, meaning, if we do this one thing, we do not have to worry about anything else. All else will be added unto us.

The kingdom is when Christians get filled with the Holy Spirit POWER. That is the kingdom. The kingdom of God is not in word, it is in power (1Cor 4:20). Jesus said that if he cast devils by the Holy Spirit (demostrating the power), that is the kingdom of God

Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Lk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

When the disciples asked Jesus about the timing of the arrival of his kingdom in Acts 1:6-8, the answer they got back was Ye shall receive POWER when the Holy Spirit falls upon you.

The Christian Church is called to make it her priority to get more HS power, Seek ye first the kingdom of God. In the Our Father prayer, # 1 on the list of petitions is "Thy kigdom come".

We can not see the kingdom unless we get baptized with the HS. Peter and John had power....

Acts 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

The kingdom is not something we do, it is not a guidance of behavior that we do, it is something God does with his HS in us.

Mk 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

This power comes at a price.... it is called suffering ...

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Cor 12:9 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Cor 12:10 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

The greatest suffering is the great tribulation and guess what... that is the time of the kingdom and the power

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

How much HS power is in our life? Lets get more.

Shalom

Firstfruits
Mar 26th 2010, 11:06 AM
Ok... focus has been placed in something I am always drawn back to... God's will!

So... why do some (not all) Christians feel that acheiving salvation is a one shot deal? They accept Christ and that's it... wait for the end to come and ride up into heaven with Christ due to their act of acceptance of Him as their Savior. Some say, He does all the work from that point on but we have so much scripture bought out in this thread that proves otherwise. We are the ones that are "warned" to endure, to overcome, to make sure, to examine one self, to hold fast, run the race... ETC.

If once saved always save... why these warnings and encouragement from Jesus to endure or as He says... abide in Him.

What is proof a Christian is within God's will?

Is "fruit" one way to determine that a Christian is doing the will of God? Not "works" as we see in the scripture that you brought forth because much work that can be done isn't God's will, it's usually our will thus... no "fruit" is produced. We're doing works, and much good is done and high-5s all round and great atta' boys/girls all round! Seems good intention all in the name of Jesus really doesn't mean much when we read that Jesus warns us of what these works produce... based on the scripture you posted.

Your post begins with:



We see that all 10 began with their lamps and oil so did they all "believe" they were saved? If their belief was false, fine... but then how did they "have" a lamp and oil from the beginning if their belief was false?

I have to understand this as a fact that their belief was true and they received Christ just didn't maintain, hold onto, endure, overcome etc.

It is apparent that although they were in Christ they did not all abide in Christ, meaning that it is possible to fall and be lost.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jn 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Firstfruits

Slug1
Mar 26th 2010, 12:00 PM
It is apparent that although they were in Christ they did not all abide in Christ, meaning that it is possible to fall and be lost.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jn 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Firstfruits

Also...

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

I mentioned a parable in an earlier post about the parable of the Barren Fig Tree. This parable supports what Jesus is saying in v2 of John 15 as He (God the Father) will take away any who is in Christ but who is unfruitful.

Luke 13:6 He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that[a] you can cut it down.’”

In this parable we have a man who has a fig tree planted in his vineyard. This is God the Father and the fig tree represents any who have accepted Christ... you, me, all Christians. Christ is the "keeper" in v7 and we find that God the Father has attempted to gather fruit from this "tree/Christian" that is in the vineyard for three years but has received nothing from this Christian. God the Father orders Jesus to remove the unfruitful Christian but Christ intercedes on the Christians behalf and requests another year to work "in (fertilize)" the Christian. We find that Jesus in His interceding informs His Father that "IF" the Christian bears fruit, all is well... but IF not, then He tells His Father that He can take the unfruitful Christian away.

The warnings are very clear, and they are in the Bible many, many times.

It is why James is led to warn us that Faith without works is dead! Dead like that fig tree after God cut it down!! Clear warnings that we have, such as this parable, we see the seriousness of not producing by allowing God to work with the faith He gave us to produce fruit (glory) to Himself.

Firstfruits
Mar 26th 2010, 01:56 PM
Also...

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

I mentioned a parable in an earlier post about the parable of the Barren Fig Tree. This parable supports what Jesus is saying in v2 of John 15 as He (God the Father) will take away any who is in Christ but who is unfruitful.

Luke 13:6 He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that[a] you can cut it down.’”

In this parable we have a man who has a fig tree planted in his vineyard. This is God the Father and the fig tree represents any who have accepted Christ... you, me, all Christians. Christ is the "keeper" in v7 and we find that God the Father has attempted to gather fruit from this "tree/Christian" that is in the vineyard for three years but has received nothing from this Christian. God the Father orders Jesus to remove the unfruitful Christian but Christ intercedes on the Christians behalf and requests another year to work "in (fertilize)" the Christian. We find that Jesus in His interceding informs His Father that "IF" the Christian bears fruit, all is well... but IF not, then He tells His Father that He can take the unfruitful Christian away.

The warnings are very clear, and they are in the Bible many, many times.

It is why James is led to warn us that Faith without works is dead! Dead like that fig tree after God cut it down!! Clear warnings that we have, such as this parable, we see the seriousness of not producing by allowing God to work with the faith He gave us to produce fruit (glory) to Himself.

Amen, Agreed,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BruceG
Mar 26th 2010, 04:05 PM
Let me comment on this statement... all ten did have one common denominator and this is pointed out in v8: 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

If the ones who were foolish were not saved... then why do they even "have" lamps that are "capable" of going out? If they were not saved, they'd not have lamps lit that are now going out do to their foolishness.

So where all 10 saved?
I think the issue is one of semantics. When are we saved?Is it when we first ask Christ into our hearts? Is it he that endureth to the end? Based upon the parable of the sower, and many scriptures supporting it, we must be led to acknowledge that part of the salvation process is making our calling and election sure.

When we first come to Christ, we indeed do get new life, but our race is not over, but just beginning. The five foolish virgins might indeed have at one time had life, but obviously neglected so great a salvation...by worldliness, unbelief, holding back on seeking Him alone...something caused them not to endure to the end, and thus, they were not saved in the end, even if they had once walked in real light.

Paul said "I keep my body under, lest after preaching to others, I myself might become a castaway."

Peter said "Seeing that all therse things are about to be dissolved, what manner of lives ought we live" and urged the believer not to neglect so great salvation.

It is a lesson for all of us. We cannot take God's grace for granted. If we do, we do so at the risk of our souls.

Bruce

Firstfruits
Mar 26th 2010, 05:32 PM
I think the issue is one of semantics. When are we saved?Is it when we first ask Christ into our hearts? Is it he that endureth to the end? Based upon the parable of the sower, and many scriptures supporting it, we must be led to acknowledge that part of the salvation process is making our calling and election sure.

When we first come to Christ, we indeed do get new life, but our race is not over, but just beginning. The five foolish virgins might indeed have at one time had life, but obviously neglected so great a salvation...by worldliness, unbelief, holding back on seeking Him alone...something caused them not to endure to the end, and thus, they were not saved in the end, even if they had once walked in real light.

Paul said "I keep my body under, lest after preaching to others, I myself might become a castaway."

Peter said "Seeing that all therse things are about to be dissolved, what manner of lives ought we live" and urged the believer not to neglect so great salvation.

It is a lesson for all of us. We cannot take God's grace for granted. If we do, we do so at the risk of our souls.

Bruce

May I ask when those that do not believe will perish?

When will those that believe be saved?

Firstfruits

Servant89
Mar 27th 2010, 02:07 AM
May I ask when those that do not believe will perish?

When will those that believe be saved?

Firstfruits

Salvation is not based on what we did in the past, but what we do today in the present and what we do tomorrow, in the future.

Saved if... IF means it is conditional on the future

1CO 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

JOH 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

ROM 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

COL 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1TI 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

JOH 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

JOH 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

HEB 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Shalom

ClayInHisHands
Mar 27th 2010, 01:55 PM
Salvation is not based on what we did in the past, but what we do today in the present and what we do tomorrow, in the future.

Saved if... IF means it is conditional on the future

1CO 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

JOH 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

ROM 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

COL 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1TI 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

JOH 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

JOH 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

HEB 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Shalom

How could anyone see the word IF and try and argue.....JOH 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

How could anyone question and twist around that statement alone? Mind boggling

notuptome
Mar 27th 2010, 03:01 PM
If you begin with a faulty conclusion and persist in supporting it with faulty data you will not obtain a correct knowledge of the subject matter.

The ten virgins are a representation of Israel not Christians. Israel was chosen by God from among all the nations on the earth. Chosen to receive the word of God from God. Israel was to be God's witness among the nations of the world. The Messiah was to come from Israel and be the Saviour not only of Israel but the whole world.

All of Israel was elect. All ten here were virgins and suitable for the wedding. Only five took their vows seriously and were ready when the time of the arrival of the bridegroom. All of Israel was told to be looking for their promised Messiah to come but some had become apostate and were no longer looking for Him to come. One might suggest that Israel today is among the most foolish of nations having missed her bridegroom and the blessing passing to the gentiles.

Have you not seen Jewish rabbis carrying the sacred scolls about that all may look upon the outside of them? Yet what of that which is written upon their inner parts? Jesus in John 5:39 illustrates that the Jews had made the having of the word more important than understanding the word of God.

To gin up an argument that one cannot simply believe God and be saved is unfortuneate. God has said that if a man is to be saved it must be by grace and not by works. To make perseverence dependent upon man and not God is to replace grace with works and to rob God of the glory that is His and His alone. Jude 1 describes those who have believed as preserved. Christians are also described as sealed by the Holy Spirit. Paul was confident that the salvation he received would not fail because of Christ and not Paul. 2 Tim 1:12

Those who are saved are saved the moment they trust Christ to forgive them of their sins. The moment they give up trying to save themselves and submit themselves to Christ. Those who are condemned are in fact condemned already because they will not submit to the righteousness of Christ but go about to establish their own righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 03:20 PM
Salvation is not based on what we did in the past, but what we do today in the present and what we do tomorrow, in the future.

Saved if... IF means it is conditional on the future

1CO 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

JOH 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

ROM 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

COL 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1TI 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

JOH 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

JOH 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

HEB 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Shalom

For what purpose must we believe, what is it that we are being saved from?

What will it mean for those that are to perish?

Firstfruits

BroRog
Mar 27th 2010, 06:25 PM
Salvation is not based on what we did in the past, but what we do today in the present and what we do tomorrow, in the future.

Saved if... IF means it is conditional on the future

1CO 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

JOH 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

ROM 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

COL 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1TI 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

JOH 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

JOH 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

HEB 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

ShalomConditionals can either be prescriptive or descriptive. Not all conditionals are prescriptive, some are descriptive. What do I mean?

Prescriptive conditionals are choices we make. We are given a choice and the basis for our decision depends on whether certain prescribed conditions are met. For instance, consider the halfback on a football team. As he runs down the field he comes to a defender and says to himself, "If my opponent cuts left, I will go right. Or, if my opponent cuts right, I will go left." The halfback will decide his course based on the choice his opponent makes. Prescriptive conditionals dictate actions or choices based on prescribed conditions.

Descriptive conditionals intend to assess the nature of things. We test something to see whats in it. For instance, suppose we want to know if a particular liquid is acidic. A very simple test we might perform is to dip blue litmus paper into the liquid. Blue litmus paper turns red under acidic conditions and so if the litmus paper turns blue, we know that the liquid is acidic. We are testing the liquid to ascertain something about its nature. And we describe the test in terms of a conditional, "If the blue paper turns red, the liquid is acidic." This conditional statement isn't intended to imply a choice we are making. It describes a test we are performing and the conditions under which we can draw a conclusion about the nature of the liquid.

So then, as we come across conditional statements in the Bible, we have an interpretive choice to make. When Jesus makes a conditional statement, is he being prescriptive or descriptive? Let's use John 8:31 as an example.


JOH 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


If this is intended as a prescriptive conditional, then it describes a choice Jesus will make depending on a choice his disciple make, and as such his statement implies a decision in the form of "If you do 'x', then I will do 'y'." In this case, if Jesus intends John 8:31 to be a prescriptive conditional he is saying, "If you continue in my word, then I will consider you to be one of my disciples." The converse may also be true, "If you don't continue in my word, then I will no longer identify you as one of my disciples." The conditional prescribes a choice Jesus will make, i.e. identify you as one of my disciples or not, based on the contingency of the disciple to continue in the teachings of Jesus.

That is on the one hand. On the other hand, his statement might be a descriptive conditional, and as such it describes the nature of the person claiming to be a disciple. If Jesus intends this to be a descriptive conditional, then he implies that a test is being performed on the person claiming to be a disciple, which will determine whether the person claiming to be a disciple is actually and genuinely a disciple or whether such a claim is empty words. How shall you know if I am a disciple of Jesus? You will watch me, and ascertain whether or not I continue in his word. If I continue, then you know I am a disciple of his. If I don't continue, then you know that I was never a disciple of his.

Given this framework, we could examine each of the "if" statements in the Bible to see if the statement implies a decision, in which case it is a prescriptive conditional, or it implies a test of the nature of a person or a thing, in which case it is a descriptive conditional.

Servant89
Mar 28th 2010, 12:13 AM
HEB 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

JOH 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1TI 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
1TI 5:15 For some have already turned aside after Satan.

1TI 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

HEB 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

HEB 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; (see also
Mat 13:7,22 and 1Tim 6:9-10)
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

2PE 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

1TI 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1TI 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

EZE 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

DEU 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

1CH 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

2CH 15:2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

ISA 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

JER 5:7 How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses.

JER 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

PRO 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.

JER 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

1TI 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Shalom

saved11
Mar 28th 2010, 06:28 PM
Mt 25: 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

All 10 had oil at one time but only 5 maintained the oil and remained lit to the very end.

So were all 10 saved at one time and only 5 endured to the very end?

Suggest that you read the below website. I find this to be the best explanation of all and one which most likely be able to answer your above question.
http://endtimepilgrim.org/tenvirg.htm

A tidbit :Could it be that we are too focused on the wrong thing. Most of us tend to get stuck on the part where all 10 virgins had oil in the lamp and that the oil symbolizes the Holy Spirit. But maybe our focus should be on the extra oil in a vessel that the 5 wise virgins carried. The vessel (not the lamp) and the oil there (ie the outside supply) is the Holy Spirit.

Servant89
Mar 28th 2010, 11:01 PM
Suggest that you read the below website. I find this to be the best explanation of all and one which most likely be able to answer your above question.
http://endtimepilgrim.org/tenvirg.htm

A tidbit :Could it be that we are too focused on the wrong thing. Most of us tend to get stuck on the part where all 10 virgins had oil in the lamp and that the oil symbolizes the Holy Spirit. But maybe our focus should be on the extra oil in a vessel that the 5 wise virgins carried. The vessel (not the lamp) and the oil there (ie the outside supply) is the Holy Spirit.

That's the key! AMEN!

Shalom

Slug1
Mar 28th 2010, 11:18 PM
Suggest that you read the below website. I find this to be the best explanation of all and one which most likely be able to answer your above question.
http://endtimepilgrim.org/tenvirg.htm

A tidbit :Could it be that we are too focused on the wrong thing. Most of us tend to get stuck on the part where all 10 virgins had oil in the lamp and that the oil symbolizes the Holy Spirit. But maybe our focus should be on the extra oil in a vessel that the 5 wise virgins carried. The vessel (not the lamp) and the oil there (ie the outside supply) is the Holy Spirit.


That's the key! AMEN!

Shalom

Were all 10 saved?

If so, then why didn't 5 overcome in the end?

The "key" is the fact that people who accepted Christ (have lamps with oil) still don't make it into heaven to spend eternity with God.

Servant89
Mar 29th 2010, 12:57 AM
Were all 10 saved?

If so, then why didn't 5 overcome in the end?

The "key" is the fact that people who accepted Christ (have lamps with oil) still don't make it into heaven to spend eternity with God.

I think we believe the same thing but somehow I speak spanish and you speak English.

Maybe they were all saved while they had oil. But I do not believe 10 were saved.. all ten had oil in their lamps (the Holy Spirit talks to people that read the Bible, the Bible is the lamp, Jesus said: John 6:63 my words (lamp) are spirit (oil).... his Bible, his lamp has oil. But only five had oil their vessels (besides their lamps) and that seems to make the difference. They looked to get HS inside them, they wanted the kingdom.

The seed that fell among the rocks believe for a while but then, they died.

Lk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Shalom

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 03:35 AM
I think we believe the same thing but somehow I speak spanish and you speak English.

Maybe they were all saved while they had oil. But I do not believe 10 were saved.. all ten had oil in their lamps (the Holy Spirit talks to people that read the Bible, the Bible is the lamp, Jesus said: John 6:63 my words (lamp) are spirit (oil).... his Bible, his lamp has oil. But only five had oil their vessels (besides their lamps) and that seems to make the difference. They looked to get HS inside them, they wanted the kingdom.

The seed that fell among the rocks believe for a while but then, they died.

Lk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Shalom

All 10 "had" oil... v8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ By "going out" means they "had" oil at one time so their belief was true at one time.

So re-reading your post... we are saying the same thing, just angles seem different, hahaha.

When I read words such as, //which for a while believe//, I have to believe that such people accepted Christ... thus, are saved. If they didn't believe, then the words we read would not say, //which for a while believe//.

We either believe and fall away or we believe and don't fall away and thus, overcome.

The scripture for the OP states they all had oil (v8), so their belief was true, that is clear.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 29th 2010, 04:48 AM
Were all 10 saved?

If so, then why didn't 5 overcome in the end?

The "key" is the fact that people who accepted Christ (have lamps with oil) still don't make it into heaven to spend eternity with God.

Wondering what your thoughts are on my previous responses. The oil is having eyes to see the signs of the times. Many of the Jews missed those signs, and so were destroyed in 70 AD, whereas those who heeded Jesus and John's words fled the city beforehand. That's what this parable is mainly concerning. It's not about the Holy Spirit and heaven. It's about preparation (25:10) / watching (v.13). Notice too that Jesus is describing the destruction of the temple as the day when the bridegroom would come for his bride - as a cause for celebration! The equivalent of Matt. 23:1-25:13 in Revelation is 18:1-19:10 (cf. Deut. 28:63).

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 29th 2010, 05:23 AM
All 10, based on v8 had oil at one time so there is salvation for all 10, at one time. Yet in the end, only 5 made it... even though all at one time began with their oil otherwise we'd not read what we do in v8.

I agree, oil is the Holy Spirit and this is how the lamp is kept lit so Jesus can shine from them... but only 5 kept shining.

So... were all 10 at one time, saved?

Hi Slug,
No I don't think all 10 were saved. Only the 5 wise virgins were saved. The 5 foolish virgins were never saved. From what I've read/learned about this parable, it is basically a warning to us.

All 10 virgins looked exactly alike from the outside. They all had lamps, they all waited for the groom, you couldn't really tell them apart from the outside.

What made the difference was the wise virgins had the extra oil, the foolish ones didn't. I believe this oil refers to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, aka being born again. The foolish virgins were never regenerated, although they looked like the regenerated virgins on the outside.

What's even interesting was that for a little while, the lamps of the foolish virgins were even burning. But only for awhile. This I think speaks of our enduring on in the faith, the truly saved believers produce fruits that endure and they persevere to the end, the unregenerated ones might look as if they're producing fruit for awhile but it doesn't last because they were never regenerated.

In today's terms, I think what this parable is saying is this:
There're a lot of people who look like Christians, talk like Christians, go to church, know all the lingo, know the doctrines and theology even, but are not regenerated. This will only become apparent when the groom comes.

Thus this parable is a warning for us to test ourselves, that we're truly regenerated. Hope this helps.

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 07:51 AM
Hi Slug,
No I don't think all 10 were saved. Only the 5 wise virgins were saved. The 5 foolish virgins were never saved. From what I've read/learned about this parable, it is basically a warning to us.

All 10 virgins looked exactly alike from the outside. They all had lamps, they all waited for the groom, you couldn't really tell them apart from the outside.

What made the difference was the wise virgins had the extra oil, the foolish ones didn't. I believe this oil refers to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, aka being born again. The foolish virgins were never regenerated, although they looked like the regenerated virgins on the outside.

What's even interesting was that for a little while, the lamps of the foolish virgins were even burning. But only for awhile. This I think speaks of our enduring on in the faith, the truly saved believers produce fruits that endure and they persevere to the end, the unregenerated ones might look as if they're producing fruit for awhile but it doesn't last because they were never regenerated.

In today's terms, I think what this parable is saying is this:
There're a lot of people who look like Christians, talk like Christians, go to church, know all the lingo, know the doctrines and theology even, but are not regenerated. This will only become apparent when the groom comes.

Thus this parable is a warning for us to test ourselves, that we're truly regenerated. Hope this helps.I understand what you say here... I posted about John 15 and also the parable of The Barren Fig Tree in post #53 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?205661-The-10-Virgins&p=2375453#post2375453) so I agree with you for the most part.

We are all given oil upon accepting Christ... at that moment we "are" saved. It's keeping that oil flowing and overflowing that means the difference of overcoming till the end or not overcoming.

For a lousy analogy... when I was in the military and we conducted our gunnery tables, we "started" with a maximum score and based on our performance, meant keeping a passing score or ya failed to perform and the points lowered to a range that meant "failure".

saved11
Mar 29th 2010, 07:53 AM
Were all 10 saved?

If so, then why didn't 5 overcome in the end?

The "key" is the fact that people who accepted Christ (have lamps with oil) still don't make it into heaven to spend eternity with God.

Slug1,

Only 5 were saved that's why only 5 were called the wise virgins. The 5 foolish virgins never had the Holy Spirit to begin with, so its not like they fell away midway.

We tend to be caught up so much by the "oil in the lamp". However, if we were to ask a kid what was the major difference between the 2 groups of virgins, the kid will most likely say "the vessel with the oil" without giving a thought about the "oil in the lamp"--after all that was the only thing that differentiated the 2 groups.

So what does the "vessel with the oil" represent. It represents the provider/comforter (an outside person ie the Holy Spirit) that was there to sustain them throughout their journey especially during difficult times. It was certainly a personal resource as nobody could take/borrow the Holy Spirit in a true believer. The lamp is the spirit of man. The oil that is in the man generally means the Holy Spirit. However, in this case, I would not take it as the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit never "runs out" like the oil in the lamp did. There will be people (false believers) that look like Christians--attend church, believe they are saved, know doctrines etc (ie they had the oil in the lamp). These people believed they were saved (evidenced by their knocking on the door to be let in) but evidently they were not because the bridegroom said he did not know them.

Also, just think for a minute--if we used to have a relationship with someone/know someone but now no longer maintain that relationship--we would most likely say--I once knew that person but now I don't really know how he is like etc as he may have changed. Its unlikely that we will outright say "we do not know the person without some clarification that we once knew him". However, in the bible--it was never once mentioned that God ever knew them, rather its always an emphatic "I never knew you".

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 08:02 AM
Wondering what your thoughts are on my previous responses. The oil is having eyes to see the signs of the times. Many of the Jews missed those signs, and so were destroyed in 70 AD, whereas those who heeded Jesus and John's words fled the city beforehand. That's what this parable is mainly concerning. It's not about the Holy Spirit and heaven. It's about preparation (25:10) / watching (v.13). Notice too that Jesus is describing the destruction of the temple as the day when the bridegroom would come for his bride - as a cause for celebration! The equivalent of Matt. 23:1-25:13 in Revelation is 18:1-19:10 (cf. Deut. 28:63).Well, seeing and believing are two different things.

People can listen to Jesus' words, watch Jesus heal, raise the dead, cast out demons and still not believe. Or, they can even acknowledge He's the Son of God but not accept Him. So many even today say they believe there is a God in heaven and even pray to Him in times of trouble but they don't have any acceptance of His Son, nor plan to desire any relationship... no oil.

It's the same for Jews today who serve/worship God but not "through" Jesus... no oil.

It's the same for anyone who serves/worships God through their religion but not "through" Jesus... no oil.

So it's not limited to before 70AD.

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 08:06 AM
Slug1,

Only 5 were saved that's why only 5 were called the wise virgins. The 5 foolish virgins never had the Holy Spirit to begin with, so its not like they fell away midway.

We tend to be caught up so much by the "oil in the lamp". However, if we were to ask a kid what was the major difference between the 2 groups of virgins, the kid will most likely say "the vessel with the oil" without giving a thought about the "oil in the lamp"--after all that was the only thing that differentiated the 2 groups.

So what does the "vessel with the oil" represent. It represents the provider/comforter (an outside person ie the Holy Spirit) that was there to sustain them throughout their journey especially during difficult times. It was certainly a personal resource as nobody could take/borrow the Holy Spirit in a true believer. The lamp is the spirit of man. The oil that is in the man generally means the Holy Spirit. However, in this case, I would not take it as the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit never "runs out" like the oil in the lamp did. There will be people (false believers) that look like Christians--attend church, believe they are saved, know doctrines etc (ie they had the oil in the lamp). These people believed they were saved (evidenced by their knocking on the door to be let in) but evidently they were not because the bridegroom said he did not know them.

Also, just think for a minute--if we used to have a relationship with someone/know someone but now no longer maintain that relationship--we would most likely say--I once knew that person but now I don't really know how he is like etc as he may have changed. Its unlikely that we will outright say "we do not know the person without some clarification that we once knew him". However, in the bible--it was never once mentioned that God ever knew them, rather its always an emphatic "I never knew you".All 10 had "lit" lamps though. If 5 "never" had their lamps lit, I'd understand what you're saying.

edit... So, what happens to us as we obediently serve God and He produces fruit through us? Does our oil increase and this can be represented by a need for the vessels?

When we don't allow God to use us, He takes us away from the vine and they wither/dry up... little oil and in the end, they're tossed in the fire.

We all begin our relationship (receive the oil) and as our relationship grows in the Lord our tasks as led by God take us to tasks that in time even require empowerment. Not many accept Christ one day and the next day they are standing before 100,000 people and preaching. Even if God was to reveal this to them on the day of their salvation in accepting Christ... I know, I'd freak out. But over time, as God uses them and they are known by their "fruit" because God is producing large amounts... someday as they preach before 100,000, this is a small amount to them. They are overflowing, as the phase goes.

Servant89
Mar 29th 2010, 08:34 AM
All 10 "had" oil... v8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ By "going out" means they "had" oil at one time so their belief was true at one time.

So re-reading your post... we are saying the same thing, just angles seem different, hahaha.

When I read words such as, //which for a while believe//, I have to believe that such people accepted Christ... thus, are saved. If they didn't believe, then the words we read would not say, //which for a while believe//.

We either believe and fall away or we believe and don't fall away and thus, overcome.

The scripture for the OP states they all had oil (v8), so their belief was true, that is clear.

Slug1:

BINGO!

I believe we are in agreement. Jesus gave Judas HS power to heal and do the work of the ministry.

Mt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

So, what happened to Judas? He is one that Jesus kept him (apparently saved) and then he lost him.

Jn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Shalom

Nihil Obstat
Mar 29th 2010, 02:20 PM
So it's not limited to before 70AD.

I never said it was limited to 70 AD. I said that Jesus was primarily speaking to those Jews in His day about what to prepare for in their generation. That's what the parable is about; that's the interpretation. Now, you can apply that interpretation in a secondary way to events after 70 AD, but it would be just that: secondary application, and not primary interpretation.

saved11
Mar 29th 2010, 02:47 PM
Removed as double posting

saved11
Mar 29th 2010, 02:57 PM
All 10 had "lit" lamps though. If 5 "never" had their lamps lit, I'd understand what you're saying.

edit... So, what happens to us as we obediently serve God and He produces fruit through us? Does our oil increase and this can be represented by a need for the vessels?

When we don't allow God to use us, He takes us away from the vine and they wither/dry up... little oil and in the end, they're tossed in the fire.

We all begin our relationship (receive the oil) and as our relationship grows in the Lord our tasks as led by God take us to tasks that in time even require empowerment. Not many accept Christ one day and the next day they are standing before 100,000 people and preaching. Even if God was to reveal this to them on the day of their salvation in accepting Christ... I know, I'd freak out. But over time, as God uses them and they are known by their "fruit" because God is producing large amounts... someday as they preach before 100,000, this is a small amount to them. They are overflowing, as the phase goes.

Slug1,

You are fixated with the oil in the lamp, aren't you. Ok, let me try a different approach. Remember Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan. Christian was brought to a place where there was a fire burning. The devil kept pouring water to quench the fire but the fire was never put out. Why? Because behind the fire was Jesus that kept pouring the oil into the fire to ensure that the fire was not put out.

Now, let's just try to extrapolate this a bit. When people profess Jesus Christ as their saviour (both false and true believers), usually initially there will be some signs of "fire" eg: going to church, reading the bible etc (ie the lamp will light up because there is some oil. But the oil here is not the Holy Spirit, it most likely is our own strength/eagerness etc. But we will never be able to last if its based on only our own strength/determination right--that's why the oil in the lamp ran low and was not enough to welcome the Bridegroom).

Now, only true believers will continously have their lamp shining--the reason is because there is the Holy Spirit who continously strengthens and guides the true believers especially during the darkest hour. (ie the vessel that contains the oil= the man that kept pouring oil into the fire in Pilgrim's Progress ie the Holy Spirit).

Your question :"So, what happens to us as we obediently serve God and He produces fruit through us? Does our oil increase and this can be represented by a need for the vessels?"

Answer: You will always need that vessel with the oil no matter how much fruit you produce--because that vessel with the oil is the Holy Spirit. You don't need more than 1 vessel with oil. 1 vessel is enough as it will contain enough oil to sustain us. Remember 1 Kings 17:16where the widow had the jar of flour that was not used up and the jug of oil that did not run dry. When the oil in the lamp is drying up and the light is weakening--guess what--oil from the vessel (strengthening from the Holy Spirit) will be poured into the lamp (our body)--just like Pilgrim's Progress where there was the man that kept pouring oil into the fire.

Is this clearer now? Hopefully so. Sorry for the repetition but guess I'm just trying to emphasise the points

Edit : (a bit of a digression) I do not know how much oil is in a lamp and how much oil is in the vessel in the olden days but my bet is that the oil in the lamp is much lesser than the oil in the vessel. Why? Because our own strength is puny versus that of God. And also because as more oil is continously poured into us as the oil in the lamp (our body) runs out--it signifies where we are now doing things in God's strength (oil from the vessel which is now used to light the lamp) and in God's will. Our will is more and more in submission to God.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 04:51 PM
Were all 10 saved?

If so, then why didn't 5 overcome in the end?

The "key" is the fact that people who accepted Christ (have lamps with oil) still don't make it into heaven to spend eternity with God.
In your analogy only those who entered into the promise were saved. The oil that lighted the lamps is the oil that lights every man that comes into the world. John 1:9 Jesus is the Light the true Light.

No one can enter into Christ except the Father draw them. Those who receive Christ can never be lost. God cannot fail nor can He lie.

Any concept of salvation that depends on mans efforts is not of God. You cannot be saved by grace and kept by works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 05:38 PM
In your analogy only those who entered into the promise were saved. The oil that lighted the lamps is the oil that lights every man that comes into the world. John 1:9 Jesus is the Light the true Light.

No one can enter into Christ except the Father draw them. Those who receive Christ can never be lost. God cannot fail nor can He lie.

Any concept of salvation that depends on mans efforts is not of God. You cannot be saved by grace and kept by works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God gave 12 to Jesus who was only able to keep 11. Gods doesn't lie, I agree and He says that if any in Christ who don't produce, He (God the Father) will take away. Christ won't, as we also see in the parable of The Barren Fig Tree. Post #53 if you need to read it all.

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 05:42 PM
I never said it was limited to 70 AD. I said that Jesus was primarily speaking to those Jews in His day about what to prepare for in their generation. That's what the parable is about; that's the interpretation. Now, you can apply that interpretation in a secondary way to events after 70 AD, but it would be just that: secondary application, and not primary interpretation.Well, we're not living in those times. The Bible is the Living Word of God, it's never a book to read as if God "said". It's the Bible, it's Living because it's Jesus Himself... He's the "Word".

It's what Jesus is "saying" not said... so if you want to call it a "secondary application" for you, that's your choice and look at everything as if He said and not as in, He's saying to you now.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 07:12 PM
God gave 12 to Jesus who was only able to keep 11. Gods doesn't lie, I agree and He says that if any in Christ who don't produce, He (God the Father) will take away. Christ won't, as we also see in the parable of The Barren Fig Tree. Post #53 if you need to read it all.
Only able to keep 11?? Christ knew when He chose Judas that it was he who would betray Him. Judas does not represent a failure of Christ to keep those who are His.

You are not good enough to save yourself by your works and you are not good enough to keep yourself saved by your works. Only Gods grace is sufficient to save and keep you saved.

You attribute to God a double judgment that wholly untrue. Those who have trusted Christ are passed from judgment into eternal life. Christians never come before the judgment throne of God. The only judgment Christians face is the judgment of their works not their souls. 2 Cor 5:10

1 Cor 3:11-15 Works go through the fire not the believer and if his works be destroyed he shall suffer loss of the works but he himself shall be saved. That would seem to directly contradict your contention that those who do not have works the Father casts out and burns.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 07:14 PM
Well, we're not living in those times. The Bible is the Living Word of God, it's never a book to read as if God "said". It's the Bible, it's Living because it's Jesus Himself... He's the "Word".

It's what Jesus is "saying" not said... so if you want to call it a "secondary application" for you, that's your choice and look at everything as if He said and not as in, He's saying to you now.
But Gods word does not change. That which He has said remains unchanged even though the world shall pass away. God is not saying something different to you today than He said two thousand years ago.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 08:40 PM
But Gods word does not change. That which He has said remains unchanged even though the world shall pass away. God is not saying something different to you today than He said two thousand years ago.

For the cause of Christ
RogerThat is why when Jesus tells "me" that His Father will take "me" off the vine if I do not allow myself to be used for God to produce fruit... I believe it's for me and not the Jews of the moment He said it.

Yes, "my" works mean nothing for my salvation but if I don't allow God to do His works through me, I mean nothing to Him and He takes me off the vine and I loose my salvation.

It's all about God.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 29th 2010, 10:33 PM
Well, we're not living in those times. The Bible is the Living Word of God, it's never a book to read as if God "said". It's the Bible, it's Living because it's Jesus Himself... He's the "Word".

It's what Jesus is "saying" not said... so if you want to call it a "secondary application" for you, that's your choice and look at everything as if He said and not as in, He's saying to you now.

Again, I'm not saying that. That's why I've been saying "primarily" - Jesus was primarily speaking to those standing around Him. Everything that we apply His words to in our day must be understood through their original purpose, as spoken to their original audience. So, for example, you keep asking if all ten virgins were saved. The answer is no; not then, and so therefore not today. If you want to make a secondary application (once more, this is not a bad thing to do, so long as it's done properly), then I would suggest one like this: You go out evangelizing, and speak the word of God to ten people. All ten heard your words, but only five got saved. The oil, then, is not the Holy Spirit, and the vessels are not our inner person, so to speak. The oil is the evidence of our preparation, having heard God's word. One man prepares himself and his family according to the implication of the gospel, and another does not. That would be, in my opinion, the application that you're seeking to make, as opposed to evidence against "once saved, always saved", which is not in view in this particular parable.

Blessings.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 10:56 PM
That is why when Jesus tells "me" that His Father will take "me" off the vine if I do not allow myself to be used for God to produce fruit... I believe it's for me and not the Jews of the moment He said it.
You are wrong. Jesus never even hinted such a thing. Those who come to Him He will in no wise cast out. None can pluck them from His hand. The Father so loved the world that He sent His Son to pay for the sins of the world. To even suggest that His love falls short of preserving those for whom His Son shed His blood is nothing short of diabolical.


Yes, "my" works mean nothing for my salvation but if I don't allow God to do His works through me, I mean nothing to Him and He takes me off the vine and I loose my salvation.

It's all about God.
You grossly underestimate the love God has for your soul. God did not pay so great a price for your salvation only to have you fritter it away. No, once you have been redeemed you are no longer your own but you are Christs. You are bought and paid for by Christ. It is not possible for you to mean nothing to Christ. You simply have not gotten a vision of the great gulf that God spanned to redeem you. The great price that He paid for your redemption. Gods love does not waiver it does not grow cold. Gods love remains certain and constant. Christ brings peace to those who have tasted that He is gracious. There can be no peace for those who, knowing the judgment of God upon sin, lack certainity of their salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 01:57 PM
You grossly underestimate the love God has for your soul. God did not pay so great a price for your salvation only to have you fritter it away. Which is why He does the interceding before His Father if you don't utilize the faith He gives you so you can be used by Him to produce fruit. Yet, if no fruit is a result, you're faith is dead and God the Father will take you away from the vine. Scripture is very clear and supported in parable so we have a visual of this.

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 02:54 PM
Which is why He does the interceding before His Father if you don't utilize the faith He gives you so you can be used by Him to produce fruit. Yet, if no fruit is a result, you're faith is dead and God the Father will take you away from the vine. Scripture is very clear and supported in parable so we have a visual of this.
Jehaovah God cannot act in the manner which you ascribe to Him. God is not capricious or vindictive. God does not save by the blood of Christ one day and cast into hell the next.

It seems as though you interchange fruit of the Spirit with works. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness,goodness, faith, meekness,temperance. These are evidences of the Holy Spirits presence in the heart of the believer. All believers are to have these fruits because the Holy Spirit is in their hearts. Gal 5:22

The good works we do like serving in the church, witnessing for Christ, aiding the poor, and caring for the sick are things we do because we are His workmanship created in Christ unto good works. Eph 2:10

Those who are Christs have the fruits of the Spirit. Those who do not know Christ do not. The scripture does not teach that those who have the fruit of the Spirit ever stop having the fruit or are ever condemned as those who know not Christ.

Christ does not change. Those who are His are His forever.

For the cause of Christ
Roger