PDA

View Full Version : Repetitive Prayer



Lexie
Mar 25th 2010, 01:49 PM
This may sound like a strange question. Sometimes I wonder when praying for something specific - Does God really want us to ask over and over again until the prayer has been answered? I mean, once we have asked, shouldn't we just believe that our prayer is heard and will be answered without asking for the same thing repeatedly? I'm not saying to stop praying altogether but if we are to really give Him our problems and rest in Him, should we continue to ask for the same thing? Is that not contradictory if we really believe?

catlover
Mar 25th 2010, 01:56 PM
I have wondered this same thing - so I will be checking this thread to see what people say.

notuptome
Mar 25th 2010, 02:07 PM
In 2 Cor 12:8-9 we see Paul asking the Lord for healing three times. The Lord answered Paul. It would seem that asking until you receive and answer is perfectly reasonable. The problem generally arises when we do not receive the answer we desire.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Dani H
Mar 25th 2010, 02:32 PM
Yes.

Keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking. Keep persisting. Keep going after God.

There is a movement out there where people are encouraged to pray for something once, believe they received it, and walk away and go about their business.

I would ask you if such praying promotes fellowship with the Lord? I would ask you if such praying promotes us sticking around, so the Lord can deal with our hearts, so we learn to quiet ourselves and listen for His response, and actually get to partake in His great plan for our lives instead of always sitting there, wondering if He heard, questioning how He feels about our requests?

Honestly, I used to pray that way, and while it seems, on the outside, to promote faith and confidence in the Lord, I must say it always left me highly dissatisfied. Because it became about me, and not God. Well, if you make a relationship only about you, then you're the one who has to carry the full burden of it.

If instead you allow yourself to enter into true fellowship, where praying becomes not just about what God can do for you, but more so how you can offer yourself up to Him and care about His desires (and oh yes, God has desires and feelings of His own), then you will find out very soon that praying will go from being difficult and confusing, to an exciting journey and something you end up looking forward to, every day.

I've said it before, so many of us struggle with trusting God. Yet, God wants to turn us into people who He can trust. With souls, above all. With His own heart. With people's hearts. With the resources He has provided to us. We cannot become such people, however, without the help of His Spirit, without Him drilling down to the depths of us to show us what all is in the way between ourselves and the Lord. How many of us actually care whether or not God trusts us?

We should always be specific in our prayers. Often, we pray general prayers, which amounts to an underlying attitude of "if I stay general and vague enough and spray my machine gun prayer bullets everywhere, something will hopefully stick, somewhere." That's an attitude of unbelief, isn't it? I know this, cause I've done it.

"Father, bless this person I'm praying for."

"In what way did You want me to bless them? Why should I bless them? Do you know if they're obeying Me so that I can bless them? What is it that you're really asking Me for? What do they really need? Who should I send to answer this prayer? Would you be willing to go to where they live and help them? Because I work through people, you know."

*stunned silence ensues as the heart begins to ponder*

We're often afraid to pray for specific things, because we don't have confidence that we're going to be heard. Well, why don't we have confidence? What are we asking for? Does what we ask for promote fellowship between us and the Lord or between another person and the Lord? Does what we ask for, further His Kingdom in any way? See, if you stick around and continue praying, and ask yourself these questions, and let God probe you, then you will soon know the answer within yourself before you see anything displayed physically, well in advance. Because God wants to give you that assurance. Maybe you'll change your request. Maybe you'll start out asking for one thing, and as God probes you, you will find "well, that's not really my true heart at all!" and other, deeper prayers will be born and bubble up, from within the depths of you, where you actually mean every word you say.

Too often we pray things that we really don't mean. We slap Band-Aids on things when God wants to take us deeper, higher, further. We do ourselves, and God, a great disservice if we don't keep seeking, don't keep asking, don't keep knocking. It is that kind of praying that changes us and the people around us, and brings great glory to the Lord, because that is something only He can make happen.

Big wall of text, I know, but I could write a book on prayer, so be glad that's all you got. :D:hug:

Crosstalk
Mar 26th 2010, 09:46 PM
Here's your answer from the Master:

Luke 18

The Parable of the Persistent Widow

1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’”

So yes, continue to pray as the Father will see that this matter is heavy on your heart. I've heard many a testimony of how a godly mother prayed for the salvation of her
children and the Lord would answer sometimes many years later.

Freek
Mar 26th 2010, 09:55 PM
Here's your answer from the Master:

Luke 18

The Parable of the Persistent Widow

1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’”

So yes, continue to pray as the Father will see that this matter is heavy on your heart. I've heard many a testimony of how a godly mother prayed for the salvation of her
children and the Lord would answer sometimes many years later.

Hi, this is not a parable about prayer. God is not an unjust judge. :D Repetitive prayer indicates unbelief.

doug3
Mar 26th 2010, 11:12 PM
Big wall of text, I know, but I could write a book on prayer, so be glad that's all you got. :D:hug:

Maybe you should. It might help someone (seriously) :)

Crosstalk
Mar 27th 2010, 01:34 AM
Hi, this is not a parable about prayer. God is not an unjust judge. :D Repetitive prayer indicates unbelief.

You mean to tell me that if you had unsaved children you would only pray for their salvation once? Or if one of them was in the hospital you would only pray once for them?

Dani H
Mar 27th 2010, 02:07 AM
I've been known to repetitively hound down God about something for weeks and months at a time. Years, even. Until breakthrough happened, and things were settled. We never go through anything that lasts a matter of minutes or hours. Most of what we find outselves in spans quite a bit of time. Doesn't it? It does for me, for sure.

Why would you not want to enter into communication with God about something until it's settled, while it's happening, sharing every bit of it with Him? What's wrong with promoting persistence when certain people fall away as soon as things get a bit hard?

Where is the greater danger, I must ask? In sounding a bit repetitive (what? don't you talk about the same things with your spouse or your friends to discuss updates as they evolve?), or in walking away as soon as an answer doesn't manifest itself because true communication was never given a chance? And thinking "well, God must not care about me because He didn't answer my one 10-second prayer about this matter"?

The warning against repetitiveness is because people place faith in words. It's not about words, or faith in words, as if repeatedly saying the same "right words" carries some magic formula. It's about real faith in a real God who is actually interested enough to want a relationship with us, who listens as we open our hearts to Him. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. God hears our hearts. He hears our thoughts, He knows them before we ever think them. Rattling off a string of words and placing "in Jesus' name" after them doesn't accomplish anything because it's just words floating out there in space without a true connection being made. That's what Jesus was warning against. Rattling off empty words that sound pious but mean nothing. Formulations that accomplish exactly zero.

It is the effectual, fervent prayer of the righteous that avails much. Fervency requires our entire being to be involved. If your heart and being is in it, then a few words will do. Or sometimes no words at all. Just like in a real relationship. :)

If your heart is not in something, why pray about it at all? Obviously it's not that important then, is it?

Freek
Mar 27th 2010, 09:32 AM
You mean to tell me that if you had unsaved children you would only pray for their salvation once? Or if one of them was in the hospital you would only pray once for them?

No sir, I would pray once and then agree with God every day that it is a done deal, cause He said so in Isaiah 49:24-25. I will call them saved all day every day. It has to manifest, because God's Word cannot return to Him void. You see, we have justified unbelief by developing all sorts of doctrines about God and His character. Someone once said, "If you talk about my wife like you talk about God. I'll take you behind the church and whip you." I am beginning to see why he said that.

Dani H
Mar 27th 2010, 02:50 PM
Well, see, here's the thing:

I've prayed for my son since he was born. When he was 12, he proclaimed Jesus as Lord (that was last month) and he is getting baptized Easter Sunday. My daughter was about 2 when I was born again. I prayed and prayed, and about 3-1/2 years later I completely surrendered myself, and her, to the Lord. She walked up to the altar that summer and proclaimed Jesus as her Lord and was baptized shortly thereafter. She then spent about 12 years living in a household full of unbelievers due to a divorce and its aftermath. Today, her faith in God remains.

When I met my current husband, he had no interest in the Lord. God had me pray for him, until I knew it was settled, and a couple of years later, he, too, surrendered to Jesus and we were married shortly thereafter.

The reason I pray exactly like I do, is because that was how God taught me to pray, not man. I see the fruit, consistently, before my very eyes. I'm taking no chances with man's teachings. Even the disciples said "Lord, teach us to pray." I'd rather the Spirit teach me, because only He can produce fruit. The Bible says that the Spirit within us will help us, if we care to give Him room to intercede the way He desires. I'm not in the habit of praying in unbelief. I'm in the habit of surrendering myself to the Spirit and let Him combat not only the enemy's resistance to God's ways, but also my own.

No disrespect, but when it comes to deciding between man's teaching on prayer, and the Spirit's way of prayer, the choice to me is quite obvious and I will never waiver from it. :)

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 27th 2010, 03:04 PM
Hi, this is not a parable about prayer. God is not an unjust judge. :D Repetitive prayer indicates unbelief.

So what do you think the parable is teaching?

Elijah prayed 7 times for rain, was Elijah also having the sin of unbelief?

Paul prayed thrice for the thorn in his flesh to be removed, was Paul also unbelieving?

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 27th 2010, 03:09 PM
No sir, I would pray once and then agree with God every day that it is a done deal, cause He said so in Isaiah 49:24-25. I will call them saved all day every day.

Firstly, is God obligated to answer our prayers? Can God say no? What does "calling them saved every day" do?


It has to manifest, because God's Word cannot return to Him void.It has to?

What is your interpretation of Isa 55:11?



You see, we have justified unbelief by developing all sorts of doctrines about God and His character. Such as?

notuptome
Mar 27th 2010, 03:14 PM
All of this is quite different from the vain repetetious prayers of the pagans.

I was thinking of the prayers of the mothers of some of the great patriarchs of the faith. Many we are told besought the Lord for a man child and many times for many years.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Freek
Mar 27th 2010, 03:41 PM
Firstly, is God obligated to answer our prayers? Can God say no? What does "calling them saved every day" do?

It has to?

What is your interpretation of Isa 55:11?

Repeating it every day all day changes my belief system to line up with what God believes about the situation. As God will not change, I have to. God has already provided everything 2000 years ago. We have to appropriate it. He does not have another Son hidden somewhere to come win the victory again, neither will Jesus come to the cross again to repeat what he has done. Why don't the church get it?? If God said it, it is true. The problem is that our circumstances are more real to us that His Word. So we live by sight and not by faith, which is contrary to God's Word and while we look on our circumstances and confess them and not on His Word and confess it, NOTHING WILL CHANGE!!

We want God to fight all our battles, but He has won the decisive victory at the cross and gave us the authority to enforce that victory. What more must He do??

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 27th 2010, 04:14 PM
Repeating it every day all day changes my belief system to line up with what God believes about the situation. As God will not change, I have to. God has already provided everything 2000 years ago. We have to appropriate it. He does not have another Son hidden somewhere to come win the victory again, neither will Jesus come to the cross again to repeat what he has done. Why don't the church get it?? If God said it, it is true. The problem is that our circumstances are more real to us that His Word. So we live by sight and not by faith, which is contrary to God's Word and while we look on our circumstances and confess them and not on His Word and confess it, NOTHING WILL CHANGE!!

What has everything you've said got to do with my simple question? Is God obligated to answer your prayers?

Firstfruits
Mar 27th 2010, 04:17 PM
This may sound like a strange question. Sometimes I wonder when praying for something specific - Does God really want us to ask over and over again until the prayer has been answered? I mean, once we have asked, shouldn't we just believe that our prayer is heard and will be answered without asking for the same thing repeatedly? I'm not saying to stop praying altogether but if we are to really give Him our problems and rest in Him, should we continue to ask for the same thing? Is that not contradictory if we really believe?

The following says that we should not use vain repititions.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Firstfruits

Freek
Mar 27th 2010, 04:25 PM
What has everything you've said got to do with my simple question? Is God obligated to answer your prayers?

If He addressed the issue at hand His Word, YES He is obligated. If He does not, what does that make Him?

soldout4God
Mar 27th 2010, 04:53 PM
The following says that we should not use vain repititions.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Firstfruits
Do you think that there are repetitive prayers that are not in vain??? That verse does seem to puzzzle me some.

Crosstalk
Mar 27th 2010, 05:15 PM
The following says that we should not use vain repititions.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Firstfruits

You seem to be clinging to the noun here but you're ignoring the adjective, in this case the word "vain". You cannot separte the two from what Jesus was teaching here.
Jesus was talking about reciting memorized prayer over and over again like the rosary. He was not teaching that you pray once only for something. There's no way He
would call a second or third prayer vain (empty).

"Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;" Col. 4:2

Dani H
Mar 27th 2010, 05:34 PM
If He addressed the issue at hand His Word, YES He is obligated. If He does not, what does that make Him?

God isn't obligated to do anything. He is God. You are correct in that Jesus isn't going to come again the way He did the first time, and that His work on the cross is indeed finished. How, then, shall we respond to so great a salvation? By entering into it, by letting the Spirit use us to further His Kingdom, by being His witnesses, by heeding, and listening, and going and obeying. By being co-laborers in His harvest, by submitting ourselves, by resisting the darkness that too easily ensnares us and those around us who are blinded to the Gospel.

God isn't obligated to save anybody. He also isn't obligated to heal, or prosper anybody. He isn't obligated to do anything. Because He already sent His Son, and that is enough. We do not get to command God around as if He was our servant, instead of the other way around. We do get to step boldly before the Throne of Grace, in full assurance that our Father will not reject us, that we are His children, that we can find His support in our hour of need. That is not obligation. That is a Father drawing near to His children as we draw near to Him. That is love, infinite love. God doesn't do things out of obligation any more than He wants us to do things out of obligation. If He has made a promise, based upon His love for us, then we can seek His face based on that promise, and not to toss anything He's promised back in His face as if we're in position to demand anything. God is not a liar, you are correct there also. But neither is He a vending machine.

I do believe it brings Him joy when we stand on His Word and take Him up on it. After all, that's what we did when we first came to the Lord and He worked the miracle of salvation within us. Certainly, we are to continue in that, in Him.

Jesus praised a Samaritan woman for her great faith because she looked to Him to heal her daughter, and would not be swayed, because she knew that only He could do it. We know there are things only God can do. We know that without Him, we can do nothing. We have great need of Him because we are all frail and vulnerable and subject to all manner of evil. Without Him, we are done. Period. But did the woman say "Jesus, I believe that You will heal my child and so I expect that from You, and so thank You and have a nice day." No, she waited for His reply, and rose up to the challenge He issued, and continued to interact with Him because she knew within herself that He was the only answer for her. That knowing, that's what faith is. That assurance that if Jesus doesn't come through, it's over. That steadfast looking to Him, but also that great submission to Him. Faith and humility both.

Jesus also praised a Roman centurion for his great faith, because the man understood authority. He understood that Jesus had authority, the likes of which he had never seen before. He understood the power of command in the spoken word because that was his life as a soldier. You did what you were told, without question, because you were under authority. He understood, somehow, through his knowledge of authority combined with what he knew about Jesus, that there were things in the unseen realm that Jesus could speak to, and they had to obey. That's why he was able to say "I'm not worthy for You to come to my house, but I know all it takes is a word from You." Again, faith and humility both. Faith in Jesus Himself and His authority. Words are meaningless when there is no authority attached. Even the words I speak to God in prayer, I can only speak and be heard, because He has given me authority to come to Him, to begin with. But I do not get to take His authority to command things around as I wish. I only get to do it with the Spirit's direct guidance and direction. Because it's still HIS WORD, not mine, HIS AUTHORITY, not mine. Whatever authority I am given, is by my submission to Him, and I do not get to wield it independently and decide on my own as to when and how.

JohnDB
Mar 27th 2010, 05:55 PM
If one knows...

well...let me see if I can explain it.

according to the Jews of Jerusalem at the time of Jesus...
There were three kinds of prayers.

Petitions. These were prayers along the lines of memorized prayers. Such as the one that Zachariah said when Gabriel came along and told him that he was going to have a son and was to name him John. He was asking for God to send the messiah at the time with a liturgical prayer that he had known since childhood.

Kinda odd considering the circumstances that Gabriel would say, "Your prayers have been answered and God is going to give you a son" When he really wanted a son but didn't say anything outside the liturgy he was supposed to say. ROFL...God most certainly has a way with words doesn't He?
Jesus also said memorized prayers often when giving thanks for the bread. Something akin to "Thank you God of the Universe for bread".

Then there are the prayers referred to as "Loud Cries".
These are ones with real heart felt emotion...usually involving frustration or desperation. So...you talk to God about it..and as the title designation says....usually said in a loud voice.

Tears.
The Holy of Holies was behind a curtain so thick that it was about five hand spans thick. Two teams of mules couldn't rip the thing. (the place where God was)
Most certainly most sounds were muffled by that many layers of cloth.

BUT
It was known that tears cut through every barrier. There is no mother that cannot hear the sound of her child whimpering over the roar of a crowd at a nascar race.
and my God can hear the quiet sound of my heart breaking over the roar of the world praying for their lottery ticket to be the winner.


And now you know what is also meant behind Hebrews 5:7

Freek
Mar 27th 2010, 06:15 PM
God isn't obligated to do anything. He is God. You are correct in that Jesus isn't going to come again the way He did the first time, and that His work on the cross is indeed finished. How, then, shall we respond to so great a salvation? By entering into it, by letting the Spirit use us to further His Kingdom, by being His witnesses, by heeding, and listening, and going and obeying. By being co-laborers in His harvest, by submitting ourselves, by resisting the darkness that too easily ensnares us and those around us who are blinded to the Gospel.

God isn't obligated to save anybody. He also isn't obligated to heal, or prosper anybody. He isn't obligated to do anything. Because He already sent His Son, and that is enough. We do not get to command God around as if He was our servant, instead of the other way around. We do get to step boldly before the Throne of Grace, in full assurance that our Father will not reject us, that we are His children, that we can find His support in our hour of need. That is not obligation. That is a Father drawing near to His children as we draw near to Him. That is love, infinite love. God doesn't do things out of obligation any more than He wants us to do things out of obligation. If He has made a promise, based upon His love for us, then we can seek His face based on that promise, and not to toss anything He's promised back in His face as if we're in position to demand anything. God is not a liar, you are correct there also. But neither is He a vending machine.

I do believe it brings Him joy when we stand on His Word and take Him up on it. After all, that's what we did when we first came to the Lord and He worked the miracle of salvation within us. Certainly, we are to continue in that, in Him.

Jesus praised a Samaritan woman for her great faith because she looked to Him to heal her daughter, and would not be swayed, because she knew that only He could do it. We know there are things only God can do. We know that without Him, we can do nothing. We have great need of Him because we are all frail and vulnerable and subject to all manner of evil. Without Him, we are done. Period. But did the woman say "Jesus, I believe that You will heal my child and so I expect that from You, and so thank You and have a nice day." No, she waited for His reply, and rose up to the challenge He issued, and continued to interact with Him because she knew within herself that He was the only answer for her. That knowing, that's what faith is. That assurance that if Jesus doesn't come through, it's over. That steadfast looking to Him, but also that great submission to Him. Faith and humility both.

Jesus also praised a Roman centurion for his great faith, because the man understood authority. He understood that Jesus had authority, the likes of which he had never seen before. He understood the power of command in the spoken word because that was his life as a soldier. You did what you were told, without question, because you were under authority. He understood, somehow, through his knowledge of authority combined with what he knew about Jesus, that there were things in the unseen realm that Jesus could speak to, and they had to obey. That's why he was able to say "I'm not worthy for You to come to my house, but I know all it takes is a word from You." Again, faith and humility both. Faith in Jesus Himself and His authority. Words are meaningless when there is no authority attached. Even the words I speak to God in prayer, I can only speak and be heard, because He has given me authority to come to Him, to begin with. But I do not get to take His authority to command things around as I wish. I only get to do it with the Spirit's direct guidance and direction. Because it's still HIS WORD, not mine, HIS AUTHORITY, not mine. Whatever authority I am given, is by my submission to Him, and I do not get to wield it independently and decide on my own as to when and how.

Danny, I know how my posts may sound. I did not say that God is a vending machine or or our errant boy or whatever. There is a lot of false humility in the church today and that is the same as pride. Jesus did way more at the cross than we can imagine, yet we do not believe it. He won a total and complete victory and now we expect Him to do more. Is this not really the mindset that thinks of Him as an errant boy?? Would you agree that one has to be really prideful to disagree with God?

“I'm such a slimy worm. Oh I'm just an old sinner saved by grace.” But is that what God said about us?? No, We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. God calls us saints. Why do we disagree? Because our circumstances indicate otherwise.

I think it boils down to what we think the Bible really is. Do we regard it as the Word of God or not? Do we humans keep our word? Yes, to the best of our ability. Why should God be held to a lower standard?

If God says something, it is true, regardless of contrary circumstances. And if He said something in His Word, He is obligated to perform it. And He does. That's the great part. I'd rather agree with God than with anyone else, would'nt you? What is faith? We are supposed to live by it, but we do not even know what it is. God cannot be manipulated, but He has bound Himself by His Word and must therefore do what He said He will do. He has magnified His Word above His Name and that ought to tell us something. Think of Abram. Everything about his natural circumstances told him that it was not possible for him to have a child. Yet he believed God and became our role model. See Romans 4.

What about the “power verses” like f you say to this mountain... blah blah blah.. Why is it in there?

I mentioned in another post that people develop doctrines to justify unbelief. Your post is a good example of what I had in mind when I wrote that.

It may have come across as being disrespectful, but I can assure you that it is not meant that way.

PS Faith pleases God. It makes Him smile to find someone who has faith.

Dani H
Mar 27th 2010, 09:56 PM
Well, I'm not going to argue. I do understand where you're coming from, Freek. However people heed the Spirit's call to prayer and end up closer to our Father and serve Jesus better and love God better, that's what matters. We're on the same team.

Bottom line: Don't pray like heathens do. Know who our God is. Know that Jesus is the way to the Father, and know that the Spirit is available to help you when you're not sure how to pray. Let God lead you to Himself in prayer. Study His Word to know Him better. There's no method, no formula. Just a connection to the Living God who loves you. That's all.

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 29th 2010, 04:20 AM
If He addressed the issue at hand His Word, YES He is obligated. If He does not, what does that make Him?

Please show me the verse which says that God is obligated to answer our prayers?

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 29th 2010, 04:41 AM
Danny, I know how my posts may sound. I did not say that God is a vending machine or or our errant boy or whatever. There is a lot of false humility in the church today and that is the same as pride. Jesus did way more at the cross than we can imagine, yet we do not believe it. He won a total and complete victory and now we expect Him to do more. Is this not really the mindset that thinks of Him as an errant boy?? Would you agree that one has to be really prideful to disagree with God?

Freek,
What makes you think it is false humility? I submit to you that every single person who has really known God and his holiness and righteousness and have been convicted by the Holy Spirit will feel that they're nothing but a worm. Dare I say that if you do not feel that way, you are not truly saved and you've never really knew the Lord?

Every single saint in the Bible that walks close to God and has known God is the same way. And we are talking about the most eminent of humankind in the eyes of God, whom he chose.

David says:
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people.

Isaiah says:
Isa 6:5 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"

Job says (and who is more righteous then Job?):
Job 40:4 "Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you? I lay my hand on my mouth.
Job 40:5 I have spoken once, and I will not answer; twice, but I will proceed no further."

Peter says:
Luk 5:8 But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."

Even Paul says:
1Ti 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Jesus himself says:
Mat 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Have you read and understood the meaning of this parable that Jesus told?
Luk 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.'
Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."




“I'm such a slimy worm. Oh I'm just an old sinner saved by grace.” But is that what God said about us?? No, We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. God calls us saints. Why do we disagree? Because our circumstances indicate otherwise.

You mean God does not call us sinners saved by grace? Have you read Romans?



If God says something, it is true, regardless of contrary circumstances. And if He said something in His Word, He is obligated to perform it. And He does.

Question:
1) What exactly do you think God promised in his word to do (pls provide Scripture reference) regarding prayer, and
2) Are these the only things God had to say about prayer?


That's the great part. I'd rather agree with God than with anyone else, would'nt you? What is faith? We are supposed to live by it, but we do not even know what it is. God cannot be manipulated, but He has bound Himself by His Word and must therefore do what He said He will do. He has magnified His Word above His Name and that ought to tell us something. Think of Abram. Everything about his natural circumstances told him that it was not possible for him to have a child. Yet he believed God and became our role model. See Romans 4.

I do not disagree with you on all this, if God has said something, we should trust him. However, I think you have a wrong view of what God has promised, because you've ignored or are ignorant of other Scriptures pertaining to prayer.

I asked you a couple other questions also regarding the parables which you said had nothing to do with being persistent to prayer, but you didn't choose to answer.

Well, Scripture itself says the parable concerns being persistent in prayer, which shows that you're wrong in your understanding of the parable.

Luk 18:1 And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.

Freek
Mar 29th 2010, 04:59 AM
Freek,
What makes you think it is false humility? I submit to you that every single person who has really known God and his holiness and righteousness and have been convicted by the Holy Spirit will feel that they're nothing but a worm. Dare I say that if you do not feel that way, you are not truly saved and you've never really knew the Lord?

Every single saint in the Bible that walks close to God and has known God is the same way. And we are talking about the most eminent of humankind in the eyes of God, whom he chose.

David says:
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people.

Isaiah says:
Isa 6:5 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"

Job says (and who is more righteous then Job?):
Job 40:4 "Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you? I lay my hand on my mouth.
Job 40:5 I have spoken once, and I will not answer; twice, but I will proceed no further."

Peter says:
Luk 5:8 But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."

Even Paul says:
1Ti 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

None of the men who spoke these words were born again.

It's Monday morning here and I will try to answer the other questions later.

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 29th 2010, 07:06 AM
None of the men who spoke these words were born again.

It's Monday morning here and I will try to answer the other questions later.

Paul was well into his old age when he wrote that. He wasn't born again? Jesus said these are the only people who're getting to heaven.

Freek
Mar 29th 2010, 08:12 AM
Paul was well into his old age when he wrote that. He wasn't born again? Jesus said these are the only people who're getting to heaven.

Paul wrote about before he was saved. Elsewhere he elaborated on that and explained that he persecuted the church.

I doubt whether you have ever heard my exposition of that parable. I only got it about 2 months ago. :D

matthew7and1
Mar 29th 2010, 09:08 AM
Maybe you should. It might help someone (seriously) :)
AMEN to that!!!


Also, David pleaded and pleaded with God for his son's life. He lay prostrate and fasted, he begged and prayed over and over. Then , when his son died, he got up and ate. He knew God's answer and accepted it once it was given.
If David was a man after God's own heart, I hope to be this way too!

That's my opinion on praying for things over and over. That you should continuously pray, but that you need to be receptive to the answer, weather it be favorable to you and your desires or not. This way, you can accept it and not be asking after an answer was handed down.

I have myself have asked and asked and have been sure that God answered. But because of my longing, I can't be sure what the answer was at all. I can't be sure if he said yes and because it didn't come immediately it seemed like a no, or if maybe God said no and I just couldn't process that as being true because I wanted it so bad. In the end I just asked God to forgive me and decided that he would reveal the answer in time since His grace wasn't good enough for me then. But I tell you I wish I had taken a page from David's book!!!

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 29th 2010, 09:15 AM
Paul wrote about before he was saved. Elsewhere he elaborated on that and explained that he persecuted the church.

I doubt whether you have ever heard my exposition of that parable. I only got it about 2 months ago. :D

Paul said "of whom I am the foremost" not "of whom I was the foremost". Present tense, not past.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that and get back on topic, if you'd still like to debate this.

1) Which verse tells you God is obligated to answer any of our prayers?
2) What is your interpretation of the unjust judge, and what do you think it is talking about?

If you read Jesus' model prayer, it says thy will be done, not my will be done. Even Jesus the Son of God never prayed in a way which even hinted that the Father was obligated to do anything. He was hungry in the wilderness, he waited on the Lord and trusted in God. In the garden of Gethsamene he prayed thy will be done, not mine. This is the Son we're talking about and He prays this way, he is our example that our prayers ought to be reverential and respectful if we truly had even the tiniest knowledge of the majesty, power and glory of God.

If we truly stood in his presence in our unglorified body, we'd be soiling ourselves with fear. If we were to stand even before the most terrifying of His creation, we'd be beside ourselves with fear. Yet we're here speaking of the Almighty creator of the Universe. He is not obligated to anyone to do anything.

We were told to come boldly before the throne of grace, yes, but we were never told to pray arrogantly. Remember, Jesus taught us to pray, "hallowed be thy name." It speaks of an enormous respect and reverence even for God's name, not to mention his person.

Freek
Mar 29th 2010, 03:43 PM
Paul said "of whom I am the foremost" not "of whom I was the foremost". Present tense, not past.

That is a single scripture and I still do not think your interpretation thereof is correct. I do not yet know how to interpret it, but your interpretation is not correct in the context of the Bible as a whole.


Anyway, I'll leave it at that and get back on topic, if you'd still like to debate this.

1) Which verse tells you God is obligated to answer any of our prayers?

I have qualified my statement by saying that if the issue is addressed in the Bible, then God is obligated to answer. Truth is, He always wants to answer, but faith, or rather the lack thereof stops Him. He has already given us everything that pertains to life and godliness. Everything means everything, not anything left out. Our problem is an unrenewed mind and unbelief. How many verses will convince you?

Hey, this is good news. Why fight it?



2) What is your interpretation of the unjust judge, and what do you think it is talking about?

If you read Jesus' model prayer, it says thy will be done, not my will be done. Even Jesus the Son of God never prayed in a way which even hinted that the Father was obligated to do anything. He was hungry in the wilderness, he waited on the Lord and trusted in God. In the garden of Gethsamene he prayed thy will be done, not mine. This is the Son we're talking about and He prays this way, he is our example that our prayers ought to be reverential and respectful if we truly had even the tiniest knowledge of the majesty, power and glory of God.

If we truly stood in his presence in our unglorified body, we'd be soiling ourselves with fear. If we were to stand even before the most terrifying of His creation, we'd be beside ourselves with fear. Yet we're here speaking of the Almighty creator of the Universe. He is not obligated to anyone to do anything.

We were told to come boldly before the throne of grace, yes, but we were never told to pray arrogantly. Remember, Jesus taught us to pray, "hallowed be thy name." It speaks of an enormous respect and reverence even for God's name, not to mention his person.

I am still working on this one. It is a long explanation and I wish we had decent voice recognition software. :D

Nowhere have I said to be arrogant. If you show me the post, I'll repent right now. :D

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 30th 2010, 11:37 AM
That is a single scripture and I still do not think your interpretation thereof is correct. I do not yet know how to interpret it, but your interpretation is not correct in the context of the Bible as a whole.

Have you also read the parable of the Prodigal Son? The Pharisee and the tax collector praying in the Temple? What do you think these lessons were intended to teach us? What do you think the first part of the beatitude is supposed to teach us?

With respect to Paul, Paul in his old age wrote, what I want to do, that I do not. The very thing I do not wish to do, that I do. All this in reference to his propensity of sin. Why do you think the Holy Spirit added that into Scripture? What is it intended to teach us?


I have qualified my statement by saying that if the issue is addressed in the Bible, then God is obligated to answer. Truth is, He always wants to answer, but faith, or rather the lack thereof stops Him. He has already given us everything that pertains to life and godliness. Everything means everything, not anything left out. Our problem is an unrenewed mind and unbelief. How many verses will convince you?

Hey, this is good news. Why fight it?

Is giving Scripture verses to back up your point really so difficult? Up till now you have not even provided one that I could remember.


I am still working on this one. It is a long explanation and I wish we had decent voice recognition software. :D

Nowhere have I said to be arrogant. If you show me the post, I'll repent right now. :D

The overall tone in saying God is obligated to answer our prayers is itself arrogance. This comes about because of our different understanding of Scripture which is why I asked you for verses to back up your claim, so we can look at the verse in question and discuss it.

I don't want to argue, so I'll just tell you that God is not obligated to answer anything. He is like a loving Father to those who are his children, and that is our relationship with Him at one level, at another He is God, we are worshippers. Just as your earthly father is not obligated to give in to all your requests, you can understand that God is not obligated to answer your prayers. The word in question is "obligated."

Someone or something is obligated to a superior. Or if you're bounded or subject to someone or something. God is under no such subjection.

God will not answer any prayer that goes against His will. He will certainly not answer if you were to come arrogantly thinking He's obligated to do anything.

Besides all this, he will not answer if you
- regard iniquity in your life
- are harsh to your wife
- do violence to others and deal unjustly
- ask for selfish reasons to splurge on yourself
- are not obedient to Him

All this is also in Scripture.

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 11:48 AM
Get this picture. Let's say, someone prays to God for healing a dozen times. What do you think His reaction will be? He leans over to Jesus at His right hand, pulls back His robe, looks at the marks on His back and say to Him, "Son, I believe those stripes were enough. Don't you? I wonder when they will start believing it too?" Jesus answers, "Yeah Dad, it really breaks My heart to see their unbelief. I went through everything that You asked me to go through and there is nothing more that I can do."

How do you think He will react?

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 12:04 PM
Get this picture. Let's say, someone prays to God for healing a dozen times. What do you think His reaction will be? He leans over to Jesus at His right hand, pulls back His robe, looks at the marks on His back and say to Him, "Son, I believe those stripes were enough. I wonder when they will start believing it too?" How do you think He will react?

With regards to the following scripture God knows what we need before we ask him. Are we doubting that he heard us the first time, and need to make sure that he hears up?

Mt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mt 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Firstfruits

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 12:29 PM
Someone or something is obligated to a superior. Or if you're bounded or subject to someone or something. God is under no such subjection.

Good one. :D Why do suggest that I want to give orders to God?
It seems that our understanding of what the Bible really is, is so far apart that I do not see any common ground. You picked a peculiar username. Care to share why you chose that one?

Lexie
Mar 31st 2010, 04:21 AM
Wow, so many interesting replies to "my" thread!! Even though I asked the original question, I will provide my own answer. I do pray repetitively. But when I take time to think about it, it's not because I think God needs a reminder but because I need to feel near Him, especially when there is something concerning me. As much as I hate to admit it, I do sometimes lose touch and adversity does bring me closer to Him. I do sometimes see it as God's way of pulling me back when I seem to be preoccupied with things that are unimportant. Which, in turn makes me think I need to change my ways in order to avoid that "discipline". Am I just totally off the mark here or does anyone else see it that way?

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 08:19 AM
Wow, so many interesting replies to "my" thread!! Even though I asked the original question, I will provide my own answer. I do pray repetitively. But when I take time to think about it, it's not because I think God needs a reminder but because I need to feel near Him, especially when there is something concerning me. As much as I hate to admit it, I do sometimes lose touch and adversity does bring me closer to Him. I do sometimes see it as God's way of pulling me back when I seem to be preoccupied with things that are unimportant. Which, in turn makes me think I need to change my ways in order to avoid that "discipline". Am I just totally off the mark here or does anyone else see it that way?

Hold on to faith believing that God is there for you.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 1st 2010, 02:26 AM
Get this picture. Let's say, someone prays to God for healing a dozen times. What do you think His reaction will be? He leans over to Jesus at His right hand, pulls back His robe, looks at the marks on His back and say to Him, "Son, I believe those stripes were enough. Don't you? I wonder when they will start believing it too?" Jesus answers, "Yeah Dad, it really breaks My heart to see their unbelief. I went through everything that You asked me to go through and there is nothing more that I can do."

How do you think He will react?

2Co 12:7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.
2Co 12:8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.
2Co 12:9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Did God heal Timothy of his stomach ailments? Do you have short-sighted people in your church? Do you wear spectacles or contact lenses? Do you ever have to visit the doctor? Has the doctor's clinic in your town closed down because everybody is healed? Should we send your pastor to pray for all the cancer patients in the world and all those who suffer from terminal diseases?

BibleGirl02
Apr 1st 2010, 02:55 AM
(Matthew 6:7 KJV) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I think what the Bible is trying to say is don't use prayer as a type of mantra like Catholics do when they pray the rosary. When a Catholic prays the rosary, they repeat the "Hail Mary" prayer over and over again. This is vain repetition.

Freek
Apr 3rd 2010, 10:29 PM
2Co 12:7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.
2Co 12:8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.
2Co 12:9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Did God heal Timothy of his stomach ailments? Do you have short-sighted people in your church? Do you wear spectacles or contact lenses? Do you ever have to visit the doctor? Has the doctor's clinic in your town closed down because everybody is healed? Should we send your pastor to pray for all the cancer patients in the world and all those who suffer from terminal diseases?

Are you justifying unbelief by suggesting that God is deaf? If not, what do you mean?

amazzin
Apr 3rd 2010, 10:33 PM
Prayers of petition are requests. Requests must be made according to the will of God as revealed in His written Word. Petitions may be at the levels of asking, seeking, or knocking. Supplication is another word for this type of prayer. The word supplication means “beseeching God or strongly appealing to Him in behalf of a need” no matter how long

Truthinlove
Apr 4th 2010, 06:36 PM
Does God really want us to ask over and over again until the prayer has been answered? I mean, once we have asked, shouldn't we just believe that our prayer is heard and will be answered without asking for the same thing repeatedly? I'm not saying to stop praying altogether but if we are to really give Him our problems and rest in Him, should we continue to ask for the same thing? Is that not contradictory if we really believe?

Luke 11:5-10 "Then, teaching them more about prayer, he used this story: Suppose you went to a friend's house at midnight, wanting to borrow three loaves of bread. You say to him, 'A friend of mine has just arrived for a visit, and I have nothing for him to eat.' And suppose he calls out from his bedroom 'Don't bother me. The door is locked for the night, and my family and I are all in bed. I can't help you.' But I tell you this - though he won't do it for friendship's sake, if you keep knocking long enough, he will get up and give you whatever you need because of your shameless persistence. And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened."

Ryan R
Apr 6th 2010, 06:54 PM
Get this picture. Let's say, someone prays to God for healing a dozen times. What do you think His reaction will be? He leans over to Jesus at His right hand, pulls back His robe, looks at the marks on His back and say to Him, "Son, I believe those stripes were enough. Don't you? I wonder when they will start believing it too?" Jesus answers, "Yeah Dad, it really breaks My heart to see their unbelief. I went through everything that You asked me to go through and there is nothing more that I can do."

How do you think He will react?

How do you think He will react to you speaking on His behalf?

"Will you argue the case for God?" (Job 13:8).

""Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2).

"Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." (Proverbs 30:6).