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View Full Version : Witches, mediums, and talking to the dead (moved from AE)



Jeffinator
Mar 28th 2010, 07:40 PM
In 1 Samuel 28 starting in verse 8, Saul contacts a medium or witch for him to talk to Samuel who has passed away. She comes in contact with him and Samuel and Saul talk and Samuel tells the future of Saul and what will happen to him.

Since when, even now, can people talk to the dead? Also, doesnt this contradict Ecclesiastes 9:5 "The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered".

jayne
Mar 28th 2010, 07:49 PM
Hey, Jeff.

This woman was a fake, knew she was a fake, and was SHOCKED when Samuel actually appeared.


Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

She didn't bring him forth - God allowed it. And He did it for a reason. He told King Saul that it was all over for him.

Jeffinator
Mar 28th 2010, 08:47 PM
No she was shocked because Saul had banned the act of contacting the dead or being a witch and he dressed in disguised clothing and when he asked to see Samuel she knew it was Saul, the king who had banned what she was doing with is why she was shocked. So your saying Samuel did or did not actually talk to Saul?

Athanasius
Mar 28th 2010, 09:10 PM
You sure you want to take that one phrase "the dead know nothing" in seclusion from the rest of the verse? Is it also true that the dead have no reward, and aren't remembered?

Frecs
Mar 28th 2010, 09:17 PM
I've listed the verses I could find in scripture pertaining to witches/witchcraft, mediums, spiritists, and talking to the dead. I don't see where God says these people are NOT talking to the dead. I think it is clear that God considers such activities wick evil. It's my personal opinion that current day famous/well-known mediums are fakes. But, that does not mean there aren't those who are "for real". But, clearly, whether "for real" or "for fun" or "fake" it is all evil in the eyes of the Lord. We as Christians need to keep away from such things--including numerology and horoscopes. There is nothing in this category that is "safe" for us.

Lev 19:31 " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.
Lev 20:6 " 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
1Sa 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.
1Sa 28:9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"
2Ki 21:6 He [Manassah] sacrificed his own son in the fire, practiced sorcery and divination, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, provoking him to anger.
Isa 8:19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Isa 19:3 The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists.
Mic 5:12 I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer cast spells.
Nah 3:4 all because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft.

Jeffinator
Mar 28th 2010, 09:17 PM
You sure you want to take that one phrase "the dead know nothing" in seclusion from the rest of the verse? Is it also true that the dead have no reward, and aren't remembered?

Good point. However it still remains that a random person could contact the dead back then. Since when is this possible?

Frecs
Mar 29th 2010, 02:05 AM
Good point. However it still remains that a random person could contact the dead back then. Since when is this possible?

Just a guess on my part but probably since two events took place: a human died (physically) and Satan fell from heaven....not necessarily in that order.

Whether they are truly communicating with the dead or just a demon impostor I do not know. All I need to know is that God don't approve of the practice.

Jeffinator
Mar 29th 2010, 02:23 AM
Just a guess on my part but probably since two events took place: a human died (physically) and Satan fell from heaven....not necessarily in that order.

Whether they are truly communicating with the dead or just a demon impostor I do not know. All I need to know is that God don't approve of the practice.

I dont really think it was a demon, considering it just told Saul what was going to happen to him and it was fulfilled. I was just under the assumption that humans don't have the divine ability to speak with the dead. I mean if people can speak to the dead then I guess all those ghost stories I heard when I was younger are true :eek:. Seems weird though that in the days that the Bible were written they could do things we cant. Like talking to the dead, having donkeys speak etc.

Frecs
Mar 29th 2010, 02:29 AM
I dont really think it was a demon, considering it just told Saul what was going to happen to him and it was fulfilled. I was just under the assumption that humans don't have the divine ability to speak with the dead. I mean if people can speak to the dead then I guess all those ghost stories I heard when I was younger are true :eek:

Since God can speak through donkeys, I'm sure He could speak through a spiritist though I wouldn't consult with one expecting to hear from God. Who or what was speaking in Saul's case, I do not know. I was speaking in more general terms....I don't know if mediums and spiritists are actually speaking to the dead or hearing from demons or making it up. I know God says such practices are evil in His eyes. As for ghost stories...I don't think you have to worry about haunted houses no matter what "Ghosthunters" says....and the only ghost stories I'm interested in telling or listening too are about the Holy Ghost! ;)

jayne
Mar 29th 2010, 02:45 AM
No she was shocked because Saul had banned the act of contacting the dead or being a witch and he dressed in disguised clothing and when he asked to see Samuel she knew it was Saul, the king who had banned what she was doing with is why she was shocked. So your saying Samuel did or did not actually talk to Saul?

I think you misunderstood me.

The Bible says that the woman was shocked not when Saul asked to speak to Samuel, but when she actually SAW Samuel.

She was a fake. She had never seen the spirit of a dead person before. Here was this strange man asking to speak to Samuel and she was going to fake it as she always did.

But....when Samuel's spirit actually DID appear, she knew it was not of her own accord, but God's - therefore the man who was soliciting her services HAD to be King Saul. And she was frightened of him.

I am saying that Samuel did speak to Saul. He gave Saul God's final judgment on him.

Jeffinator
Mar 29th 2010, 07:39 AM
I think you misunderstood me.

The Bible says that the woman was shocked not when Saul asked to speak to Samuel, but when she actually SAW Samuel.

She was a fake. She had never seen the spirit of a dead person before. Here was this strange man asking to speak to Samuel and she was going to fake it as she always did.

But....when Samuel's spirit actually DID appear, she knew it was not of her own accord, but God's - therefore the man who was soliciting her services HAD to be King Saul. And she was frightened of him.

I am saying that Samuel did speak to Saul. He gave Saul God's final judgment on him.

Thats a very good point didnt look at it that way thanks.

Steven3
Mar 30th 2010, 06:57 AM
Hi Jayne
She was a fake. She had never seen the spirit of a dead person before. Call me a cynic but the way I read the text everything shouts that she was still faking. Everything she said is just a repeat of what Samuel had already told Saul before he died, look back a few chapters. Except that one extra fact, the date of Saul's death, and she got that wrong : if we compare the next two chapters, there's at least two more days of David's activity before Saul died.

How else do we know she was a fake? Because the only place in the whole Bible where one person - not Saul - claims to see a dead person is, surprise surprise, the only place in the whole Bible where some one goes to a spiritist.

What happened is about as surprising as finding bread in a bakery. :D
God bless
S

scourge39
Mar 31st 2010, 07:44 AM
Let's not forget WHY Saul visited the witch of Endor: "6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
"There is one in Endor," they said. "(1 Samuel 28:6-7, NIV)

Saul's direct communication with Yahweh had been cut off along with his kingship. His only other recourse was to consult the witch of Endor, even though verse 3 says he had banished such individuals from the land. His primary Spiritual adviser had just died as well. The narrator seems to take for granted that it was actually Samuel who appeared. The view that it was some demonic apparition is really a minority position. There's simply nothing that hints at in the immediate context or the original language. I believe the Holy Spirit would've inspired the writer to include such details if they were true. God can supersede his own commands to further his purposes. (God commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath, but Jesus redefined what that meant.) I wouldn't say that the witch of Endor was a charlatan either. The Hebrew of 1 Samuel 28:7 literally says, 'a woman who has an owb ('familiar spirit'),' meaning that she was a 'bottle' (as the word literally translates) or conduit through which a spirit had already been known to speak. I doubt that Saul's subjects took him to see a spiritist with a lousy track record. Verse 12 seems to indicate that the woman's shock was the result of her discovery that Saul, who had just banished all mediums and spiritists, was asking her to bring up Samuel. She feared for her life. Notice Saul's consolation in verse 13. One of my OT profs in seminary also took the view that the witch of Endor was a fake and spent an entire class period going over the language of this chapter. His reasoning was guided by a desire to not attribute power to the demonic. I've revisited the language of this text several times since then. I'm now convinced that, as far as her occultic abilities, she was the real article. I doubt that the then king of Israel would have demanded consultation from anyone less than a proficient medium.