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Freek
Mar 28th 2010, 08:52 PM
There is disagreement about this issue and to get a bird's eye view of the opinions, I thought to post a poll.

holyrokker
Mar 28th 2010, 09:50 PM
If we are "born sinners", then we have an excuse for our sin. It's our nature and can do nothing but sin, therefore; we can't be held responsible for our actions and attitudes. We sin because someone made us that way and we are just poor victims of Adam.

This doctrine also obligates God to intervene on our behalf, otherwise He is a cruel tyrant, condemning humanity for following what is natural.

Freek
Mar 28th 2010, 09:54 PM
If we are "born sinners", then we have an excuse for our sin. It's our nature and can do nothing but sin, therefore; we can't be held responsible for our actions and attitudes. We sin because someone made us that way and we are just poor victims of Adam.

This doctrine also obligates God to intervene on our behalf, otherwise He is a cruel tyrant, condemning humanity for following what is natural.

Sir have you really meditated on the truths that you wrote here? He provided a way out though???

Oma
Mar 28th 2010, 10:30 PM
If we are "born sinners", then we have an excuse for our sin. It's our nature and can do nothing but sin, therefore; we can't be held responsible for our actions and attitudes. We sin because someone made us that way and we are just poor victims of Adam.

This doctrine also obligates God to intervene on our behalf, otherwise He is a cruel tyrant, condemning humanity for following what is natural.


No, no.....God is not obligated to do anything on our behalf. We are born sinners, but that does not excuse our sin at all for God created us righteous. Ecc. 7:29 Adam fell and we in him for he was our federal head Rom 5:12-18.

Freek
Mar 28th 2010, 10:40 PM
No, no.....God is not obligated to do anything on our behalf. We are born sinners, but that does not excuse our sin at all for God created us righteous. Ecc. 7:29 Adam fell and we in him for he was our federal head Rom 5:12-18.

God did not create us. He created Adam and Eve righteous and they procreated according the the command(law) in Genesis. See Luke 3:23-38. Adam was the son of God. Then everybody else was the son of their parents until Jesus, who was the Son of God again. :D The problem is sinful flesh only produces sinful flesh. Spiritual death only produces spiritual death and that was God's problem. He had to "reseed" the world with spiritual life and He did that through Jesus.

SammeyDW
Mar 29th 2010, 12:43 AM
If we are "born sinners", then we have an excuse for our sin. It's our nature and can do nothing but sin, therefore; we can't be held responsible for our actions and attitudes. We sin because someone made us that way and we are just poor victims of Adam.

This doctrine also obligates God to intervene on our behalf, otherwise He is a cruel tyrant, condemning humanity for following what is natural.

Not only do I agree with all that my brothers and sisters
have posted before me.
But you have to realize that God gave us a choice.
Follow Adam and his ways which lead to death or
Follow Christ and His ways which lead to Life.

So if nothing else WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for this choice.

holyrokker
Mar 29th 2010, 01:08 AM
No, no.....God is not obligated to do anything on our behalf. We are born sinners, but that does not excuse our sin at all for God created us righteous. Ecc. 7:29 Adam fell and we in him for he was our federal head Rom 5:12-18.

So it's all Adam's fault. We aren't to blame for our sin?

holyrokker
Mar 29th 2010, 01:09 AM
God did not create us. He created Adam and Eve righteous and they procreated according the the command(law) in Genesis. See Luke 3:23-38. Adam was the son of God. Then everybody else was the son of their parents until Jesus, who was the Son of God again. :D The problem is sinful flesh only produces sinful flesh. Spiritual death only produces spiritual death and that was God's problem. He had to "reseed" the world with spiritual life and He did that through Jesus.
But the Bible doesn't say that flesh is sinful.

holyrokker
Mar 29th 2010, 01:10 AM
Not only do I agree with all that my brothers and sisters
have posted before me.
But you have to realize that God gave us a choice.
Follow Adam and his ways which lead to death or
Follow Christ and His ways which lead to Life.

So if nothing else WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for this choice.
So, do you think we have a choice? If we are born sinful, then we have no choice.

Kahtar
Mar 29th 2010, 02:03 AM
But the Bible doesn't say that flesh is sinful.
Romans 8:6-13 KJV For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

holyrokker
Mar 29th 2010, 02:20 AM
Romans 8:6-13 KJV For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This shows that sin is in living for the flesh, setting the mind on the desires of the flesh. It is choosing the flesh over the Spirit.

Living according to the flesh leads to death, living according to the Spirit is life.

It doesn't say that the flesh is sinful.

Kahtar
Mar 29th 2010, 04:22 AM
This shows that sin is in living for the flesh, setting the mind on the desires of the flesh. It is choosing the flesh over the Spirit.

Living according to the flesh leads to death, living according to the Spirit is life.

It doesn't say that the flesh is sinful.Setting the mind on the desires of the flesh leads to death. If the desires of the flesh are sinful, does that not make the flesh sinful?

holyrokker
Mar 29th 2010, 04:37 AM
Setting the mind on the desires of the flesh leads to death. If the desires of the flesh are sinful, does that not make the flesh sinful?
The desires themselves aren't sinful, either.

Jesus had flesh.
Jesus had desires of the flesh.
Jesus didn't sin.

holyrokker
Mar 29th 2010, 04:56 AM
There is only one word used in the Greek New Testament that is translated as "flesh" - that word is "sarx".
It refers to the “fleshy” part of the body (muscle, fat, blood, etc) as opposed to what is spiritual.
It also refers to the desires and emotions connected to the body.

It's the same word used in verses such as Luke 3:6 "...and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

It’s also used of Jesus in John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” and in Romans 1:3 "concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh"

It's also used in John 3:6 when Jesus said; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."


After Adam sinned, God drove him from the Garden of Eden, and banned him from the tree of life.
Genesis 3:22-24 "Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."

As a result, we also do not have access to the tree of life. When we are born, we are separated from God (spiritually).

That’s why Jesus said; "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' " (John 3:7)

Since we are born physically, not spiritually, we do not have the advantage of the Holy Spirit to direct our hearts and minds. We naturally do what the body desires.

As for the desires of the flesh - desires aren't inherently sinful; just natural.
Jesus also had natural desires.

The Greek word epithymia is translated both as "desire" and "lust"

It's the same word used by Jesus in Luke 22:15 "With epithymia I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer"

It's used twice in James 1:14-15 "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own epithymia. Then epithymia when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

We are tempted by our desire. When desire turns to lust, it becomes sin.

SammeyDW
Mar 29th 2010, 03:18 PM
But the Bible doesn't say that flesh is sinful.


So, do you think we have a choice? If we are born sinful, then we have no choice.

Christ offers us a free gift and this gift is life free from Spiritual Death + Eternal condemnation + sinful Flesh.

Note : if you have an issue with the NASB. Please feel free to lookup the scripture that I quoted in whatever translation that you wish. The site that I linked to has A LOT of translations the NASB is the one I like, and prefer.

Romans 8:1-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:1-28&version=NASB)

Romans 8:32-39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:32-39&version=NASB)

Romans 5:1-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:1-21&version=NASB)

Romans 6:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:1-2&version=NASB)

Romans 6:12-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:12-23&version=NASB)

Freek
Mar 29th 2010, 03:32 PM
So, do you think we have a choice? If we are born sinful, then we have no choice.

What logical thought process lead you to this conclusion. I am quite interested.

Firstfruits
Mar 29th 2010, 03:35 PM
If we are "born sinners", then we have an excuse for our sin. It's our nature and can do nothing but sin, therefore; we can't be held responsible for our actions and attitudes. We sin because someone made us that way and we are just poor victims of Adam.

This doctrine also obligates God to intervene on our behalf, otherwise He is a cruel tyrant, condemning humanity for following what is natural.

I believe the following scripture explains that we choose whether or not to do unrighteousness.

Jn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 29th 2010, 05:01 PM
But the Bible doesn't say that flesh is sinful.

Jesus came to this Earth and put on Flesh.. God manifest in the flesh... and the Word says.. His Flesh was not sinful.. but in the likeness of 'sinful flesh'....

God condemned sin in the flesh.. and sin..... when they Nailed His Body.. His flesh(pure) in the likeness of sinful flesh to that bloody Tree..

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


if flesh isnt sinful.. then WHY DID GOD SEND HIS SON.. in the 'likeness' of sinful flesh... to condemn sin in the flesh and for sin.. when they Nailed His Body to the tRee???

He had to send His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh.. because sinners have sinful flesh...

but those who believe on Him.. walk in the Spirit and the newness of Life... having no confidence in the flesh.... crucifying it daily....

Paul said... in his flesh dwelleth no good thing....


sinners have sinful flesh....

those who are Born AGain.. from above.. are called to crucify and mortify their members... walking in the Spirit and being led of the Spirit.... and in this .. there is NO CONDEMNATION...

the idea that the Bible says that flesh insnt sinful.. is not True..

bEcause Jesus had to come in the 'likeness of sinful flesh'.. to overcome and Be Victorious.. which He did...

if we don't have sinful flesh.. then why did He come at all? in the 'likeness of sinful flesh'.????

if our flesh isnt sinful... then He didn't have to come in the 'likeness of sinful flesh'....

holyrokker
Mar 29th 2010, 05:42 PM
What logical thought process lead you to this conclusion. I am quite interested.

Would you condemn a fish for swimming? Would you place demands upon a fish to live outside of water?

Freek
Mar 29th 2010, 08:34 PM
Would you condemn a fish for swimming? Would you place demands upon a fish to live outside of water?

What bearing does this example have on making choices?

holyrokker
Mar 29th 2010, 10:21 PM
What does the Bible say about Jesus being in the flesh?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Romans 1:3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh

Colossians 1:21-22 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death,

1 Timothy 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications,

Hebrews 10:27 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

1 Peter 4:1 Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,

1 John 4:2-3 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

2 John 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Jesus didn't come merely in the "likeness" of flesh - He became flesh.

In each case, the Greek word is sarx. It's NEVER used to indicate inherent sinfulness; neither regarding Jesus, nor regarding any of humanity.

Dravenhawk
Mar 31st 2010, 03:56 AM
We sin because through Adam we inheirited death which is the nature / fruits of original sin that came about by a conscious choice to disobey God made collectivly by Adam and Eve. Sinful nature entered into man and thereby became human nature. Ever notice how easy it is to tell a little white lie why it is almost an automatic reflex. One has to work at complying with God. Doing the will of God takes an active consciouns choice and is hardly an automatic reflex.

Dravenhawk

holyrokker
Mar 31st 2010, 01:59 PM
We sin because through Adam we inheirited death which is the nature / fruits of original sin that came about by a conscious choice to disobey God made collectivly by Adam and Eve. Sinful nature entered into man and thereby became human nature. Ever notice how easy it is to tell a little white lie why it is almost an automatic reflex. One has to work at complying with God. Doing the will of God takes an active consciouns choice and is hardly an automatic reflex.

Dravenhawk
I see people refering to this "sinful nature". What is "sinful nature"? What is the Scriptural basis for concluding that there is "sinful nature"?

Freek
Mar 31st 2010, 07:28 PM
I see people refering to this "sinful nature". What is "sinful nature"? What is the Scriptural basis for concluding that there is "sinful nature"?

What do you need to be convinced? Are you convincible?

holyrokker
Mar 31st 2010, 08:11 PM
What do you need to be convinced? Are you convincible?An accurate exegesis of Scripture would convince me.

Freek
Mar 31st 2010, 08:19 PM
An accurate exegesis of Scripture would convince me.

I'm not a theologian, but I'll try. :D Would you share the exegesis that lead you to believe what you believe?

holyrokker
Mar 31st 2010, 08:30 PM
I'm not a theologian, but I'll try. :D Would you share the exegesis that lead you to believe what you believe?Here's one example:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?204067-Are-we-born-with-sin&p=2358699#post2358699

holyrokker
Mar 31st 2010, 08:41 PM
I'm not a theologian, but I'll try. :D Would you share the exegesis that lead you to believe what you believe?
Here's another:
http://www.forthright.net/basic_greek_language_study/what_is_sarx_flesh_part_1.html
http://www.forthright.net/basic_greek_language_study/what_is_sarx_flesh_part_2.html

holyrokker
Mar 31st 2010, 08:47 PM
I'm not a theologian, but I'll try. :D Would you share the exegesis that lead you to believe what you believe?
Here's another:
http://www.archive.org/stream/originofsinitsre00cookiala#page/68/mode/2up

JLM Lives
Mar 31st 2010, 08:56 PM
Sin is UNBELIEF, you sin because you don't believe. If you believed and Jesus Christ lives inside you the will to sin has no power over you. it's human nature to sin. as Paul said the things I hate those things I do, the things I love I do not Oh wretched man that I am. Therefore being filled with the Spirit. Jesus gives us a way of escape. Yet if we do sin we have an intersessor. Thank Jesus for that. amen?

Freek
Mar 31st 2010, 08:57 PM
For me to do this will require a systematic analysis of one of the most difficult books in the Bible - Romans. I have been busy for a few weeks now and only worked through the first chapter and I still struggle to grasp the fullness thereof. Verse 4 is particularly demanding. I wish I could get websites with all the answers like you do. :D I will do that study for my own edification, but a thread in a forum will not work.

holyrokker
Mar 31st 2010, 08:58 PM
I'm not a theologian, but I'll try. :D Would you share the exegesis that lead you to believe what you believe?
Another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuaAu02wsBA&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=E6E7B09F38CAC680

Freek
Mar 31st 2010, 09:02 PM
I have not yet looked at all the sources you listed, but tell me, do you swallow all that stuff hook, line and sinker?

holyrokker
Mar 31st 2010, 09:19 PM
For me to do this will require a systematic analysis of one of the most difficult books in the Bible - Romans. I have been busy for a few weeks now and only worked through the first chapter and I still struggle to grasp the fullness thereof. Verse 4 is particularly demanding. I wish I could get websites with all the answers like you do. :D I will do that study for my own edification, but a thread in a forum will not work.
I'm not trying to provide "websites with all the answers". You asked for examples of exegetical studies. These are a few examples (the first one was my own).

I do hope you read the articles about "sarx", and especially the book by Rev Cook. But more than read, I hope you examine the points raised and check out the sources.

I included the youtube clip because listening is sometimes easier than reading. It's not thorough, but he raises some good points for consideration.

Jemand
Apr 1st 2010, 12:48 AM
In first-century Hellenistic (the cultural background of the New Testament) thought, the σαρχ (flesh) is the material part of man responsible for the desire of such things as food, drink, physical comfort, respect, admiration, love, acceptance, sex, etc. Therefore Paul used the word σαρχ (flesh) to express that concept, sometimes with emphasis on the material itself, and sometimes with emphasis on the desires for which it is responsible. When these desires were contrary to the desires of God for the man, we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the Spirit, the two often opposing sources of desire. When these desires were contrary to the desires of the intellect, the rational part of man, the νους (mind), we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the mind and its desires (Rom. 7:25).

Christ, in His humanity, shared this material part of man with all men (Rom. 1:3, 8:3), but He never yielded to the desires for which it is responsible. Paul taught that Christians are to identify with Christ through identifying with His death and resurrection, and to yield as Christ did, not to the desires of the flesh that result in sin, but to the desires of the Spirit that result in righteousness.

The fleshly man is the man who allows the desires of the flesh to rule his daily life; the spiritual man is the man who allows the Holy Spirit to rule his daily life, he is the man who is walking by the Spirit—and this man will not carry out the desire of the flesh, and hence he will not sin (Gal. 5:16).

Moreover, we as Christians, are commanded to walk by the Spirit. Those Christians who consistently obey that command consistently live lives free from sin. Those Christians who do not consistently obey that command live lives in which sin is a daily occurrence, and many of them believe that such a life is the norm for a Christian—indeed, they do not believe that an alternative even exists.

subarctic_guy
Apr 1st 2010, 08:41 AM
our innate fallen nature inclines us to choose to sin, at which point we become sinners.

BibleGirl02
Apr 1st 2010, 11:00 AM
We sin because we are sinners.

Firstfruits
Apr 1st 2010, 11:37 AM
We sin because we are sinners.

Would you agree that we do not have to sin, and that is is by choice to whom we yield?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Firstfruits

Jemand
Apr 1st 2010, 04:27 PM
our innate fallen nature inclines us to choose to sin, at which point we become sinners.

I would believe that if the Bible taught it, but it does not.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 05:26 PM
Romans 11:32 God hath concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light neither cometh to the light lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God.

Does an infant when he/she matures need to be taught to sin? When a young child first determines that his/her will is to be heeded over the parents will for the child was the behaviour taught or was this an inevitable product of maturing? What makes a child choose his/her self interest over the interests of others?

Learned, instinctive or natural it happens in every case. No one apart from Jesus has ever progressed through life without sin. God in His mercy has concluded all in the same condition that He might mercifully provide relief to the condition.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jemand
Apr 1st 2010, 05:44 PM
Romans 11:32 God hath concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light neither cometh to the light lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God.

Does an infant when he/she matures need to be taught to sin? When a young child first determines that his/her will is to be heeded over the parents will for the child was the behaviour taught or was this an inevitable product of maturing? What makes a child choose his/her self interest over the interests of others?

Learned, instinctive or natural it happens in every case. No one apart from Jesus has ever progressed through life without sin. God in His mercy has concluded all in the same condition that He might mercifully provide relief to the condition.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that anyone has an innate fallen nature. Unsaved people sin, not because of any innate sinfulness, but because their flesh is weak and easily gives into temptation. Christians have the same weak flesh, but they also have the Holy Spirit who gives them the strength to resist temptations if they so choose.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 08:45 PM
Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that anyone has an innate fallen nature. Unsaved people sin, not because of any innate sinfulness, but because their flesh is weak and easily gives into temptation. Christians have the same weak flesh, but they also have the Holy Spirit who gives them the strength to resist temptations if they so choose.
Why is the flesh weak and why do the flesh yield itself to sin? Does a person learn to sin? When a five year old throws a temper tantrum and refuses to obey his/her parent did he/she learn this behaviour?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

holyrokker
Apr 1st 2010, 10:30 PM
Why is the flesh weak and why do the flesh yield itself to sin? Does a person learn to sin? When a five year old throws a temper tantrum and refuses to obey his/her parent did he/she learn this behaviour?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The flesh is weak because it isn't spirit. God is Spirit so our relationship with Him can only be spiritual. Apart from the Holy Spirit, we aren't going to know spiritual things.

James 1:14-15 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
The Greek word translated "desire" is epithymia. There is nothing to indicate that the natural state of "desire" is sinful. In Luke 22:15 it is used by Jesus when He said: "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer"

The word is also sometimes translated as "lust". Lust is a natural desire to which someone has committed to gratify regardless of what is right.

We sin because we aren't committed to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We are enticed by our own desires. We commit ourselves to fulfilling those desires. Those desires, in turn, become lust. At this point our heart is committed to self gratification - sin is conceived.

Notice that James doesn't blame a pre-existing sinful nature as the cause of sin.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 10:46 PM
The flesh is weak because it isn't spirit. God is Spirit so our relationship with Him can only be spiritual. Apart from the Holy Spirit, we aren't going to know spiritual things.

James 1:14-15 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
The Greek word translated "desire" is epithymia. There is nothing to indicate that the natural state of "desire" is sinful. In Luke 22:15 it is used by Jesus when He said: "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer"

The word is also sometimes translated as "lust". Lust is a natural desire to which someone has committed to gratify regardless of what is right.

We sin because we aren't committed to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We are enticed by our own desires. We commit ourselves to fulfilling those desires. Those desires, in turn, become lust. At this point our heart is committed to self gratification - sin is conceived.

Notice that James doesn't blame a pre-existing sinful nature as the cause of sin.
I'm sorry but your argument is less than convincing. Romans 5:14 says that death reigned from Adam to Moses even though they had not sinned after the similitude of Adam.

There must have been a universal cause for death. As in all were deemed sinners.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

holyrokker
Apr 1st 2010, 11:38 PM
I'm sorry but your argument is less than convincing. Romans 5:14 says that death reigned from Adam to Moses even though they had not sinned after the similitude of Adam.

There must have been a universal cause for death. As in all were deemed sinners.

For the cause of Christ
RogerThe cause of death is mortality. When Adam sinned, God sent him out of the garden, and set angels around the tree of life to ensure his (and our) mortality.
"Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
Notice also that Romans 5:12 says that death spread to all men. It doesn't say sin spread to all men.

holyrokker
Apr 1st 2010, 11:41 PM
The flesh is weak because it isn't spirit. God is Spirit so our relationship with Him can only be spiritual. Apart from the Holy Spirit, we aren't going to know spiritual things.

James 1:14-15 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
The Greek word translated "desire" is epithymia. There is nothing to indicate that the natural state of "desire" is sinful. In Luke 22:15 it is used by Jesus when He said: "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer"

The word is also sometimes translated as "lust". Lust is a natural desire to which someone has committed to gratify regardless of what is right.

We sin because we aren't committed to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We are enticed by our own desires. We commit ourselves to fulfilling those desires. Those desires, in turn, become lust. At this point our heart is committed to self gratification - sin is conceived.

Notice that James doesn't blame a pre-existing sinful nature as the cause of sin.


I'm sorry but your argument is less than convincing.
For the cause of Christ
Roger

What part of my analysis of James 1 in error?

Jemand
Apr 2nd 2010, 12:49 AM
Romans 5:12-19, the foundational passage for the doctrine of original sin, says absolutely nothing about any corruption of the will as a consequence of Adam’s sin in the garden,

Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

According to Paul in this passage, the consequence of Adam’s sin was condemnation leading to death; it was NOT the corruption of the will—the will was left unchanged and man today has the same freedom of choice that Adam had—to be faithful to God and His word; or to rebel against God and His word and commit sinful acts, including the sin of disbelief.

Compare the words of Irenaeus,


4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness, for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbor.” And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Chapter 37, paragraph 4).

So, it is asked, what did happen when Adam sinned by eating the forbidden fruit?

Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, [b]because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Paul argues here that we all sinned in Adam, the proof being that we all die, including those who lived before the Law was given, and sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, the ONLY sin for which those who sinned before the Law was given would have paid the penalty of death is the sin that they committed in Adam. Although the Law had not yet been given when Adam sinned, he was specifically told by God,

Gen. 2:16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Eve, and then Adam, sinned because they were tempted and allowed themselves to be seduced by the powers of darkness. The consequence is that they were cast out of the garden and lost their immortality. Paul tells us that we sinned in Adam and ultimately die as a consequence. He does not tell us that we inherited a disposition to sin.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

Dravenhawk
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:00 AM
Romans ch 7 - 8 give a good description of sinful nature which is more or less a default setting of man originating from the events that had taken place at the Garden of Eden. Wether or not to sin is always a choice, it is also a default condition of mankind apart from God.

Dravenhawk

Sirus
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:05 AM
Romans ch 7 - 8 give a good description of sinful nature which is more or less a default setting of man originating from the events that had taken place at the Garden of Eden. Wether or not to sin is always a choice, it is also a default condition of mankind apart from God.

DravenhawkRomans 7 says there's a law in his members waring against the law in his mind
knows good and wants to do it but
he did not know how to perform that which is good

Now, call me crazy, but this does not at all like the sin nature doctrine as it is commonly taught and promoted. David said
fearfully and wonderfully made
my soul knows right well
covered by God in the womb
my God from the womb

The only thing missing in the man in Romans 7 is knowing how to perform what he knows he should and wants to do (delights in law in the inward man). Not at all what most describe as the sinful nature.
BTW; Romans 7 is after Paul was born again -learning the mystery of Christ.

Jemand
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:07 AM
Romans ch 7 - 8 give a good description of sinful nature which is more or less a default setting of man originating from the events that had taken place at the Garden of Eden. Wether or not to sin is always a choice, it is also a default condition of mankind apart from God.

Dravenhawk

What evidence do you have that what you call “more or less a default setting of man” originated in the Garden of Eden? What evidence do you have that what you call “more or less a default setting of man” is a sinful nature rather that a weakness, in the absence of the Holy Spirit, that is acted upon by temptations from without?

LookingUp
Apr 3rd 2010, 09:08 PM
Romans 5:12-19, the foundational passage for the doctrine of original sin, says absolutely nothing about any corruption of the will as a consequence of Adam’s sin in the garden,

Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

According to Paul in this passage, the consequence of Adam’s sin was condemnation leading to death; it was NOT the corruption of the will—the will was left unchanged and man today has the same freedom of choice that Adam had—to be faithful to God and His word; or to rebel against God and His word and commit sinful acts, including the sin of disbelief.

Compare the words of Irenaeus,


4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness, for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbor.” And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Chapter 37, paragraph 4).

So, it is asked, what did happen when Adam sinned by eating the forbidden fruit?

Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, [b]because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Paul argues here that we all sinned in Adam, the proof being that we all die, including those who lived before the Law was given, and sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, the ONLY sin for which those who sinned before the Law was given would have paid the penalty of death is the sin that they committed in Adam. Although the Law had not yet been given when Adam sinned, he was specifically told by God,

Gen. 2:16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Eve, and then Adam, sinned because they were tempted and allowed themselves to be seduced by the powers of darkness. The consequence is that they were cast out of the garden and lost their immortality. Paul tells us that we sinned in Adam and ultimately die as a consequence. He does not tell us that we inherited a disposition to sin.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)What does it mean that we sinned in Adam?

holyrokker
Apr 3rd 2010, 10:00 PM
What does it mean that we sinned in Adam?
That's what I'd like to know. The concept isn't found in the Bible.

Freek
Apr 3rd 2010, 10:21 PM
Why do we eventually die?

LookingUp
Apr 4th 2010, 12:22 AM
Why do we eventually die?If I may...I think one of the views is that when Adam disobeyed God, he became enslaved to Satan who became his new master. Therefore, all his offspring (all who were “in Adam”) became slaves of Satan (they are spiritually separated from God at birth). This enslavement alienated Adam from his first Master and caused his spiritual separation/death. Then, he was expelled from the Garden and lost access to the Tree of Life, so physical death now became inevitable. All his offspring also lost access to the Tree of Life and therefore will also die.

BadDog
Apr 4th 2010, 01:27 AM
Well, interesting poll, because both options are true. What came first, heh? I voted for sinning because we are sinners. We became sinners because Adam and Eve sinned, but Romans 5:12 says

Romans 5:12 So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned.

So then, the reason that we are dead in our sin is because we all sin... but we all sin because death spread from one man (Adam) to all men.

BD

Freek
Apr 4th 2010, 01:34 AM
That's what I'd like to know. The concept isn't found in the Bible.

What concept is not in the Bible? I want to make sure I understand what you mean.

holyrokker
Apr 4th 2010, 03:59 AM
What does it mean that we sinned in Adam?


That's what I'd like to know. The concept isn't found in the Bible.


What concept is not in the Bible? I want to make sure I understand what you mean.
The idea that we sinned in Adam. What is the source of that idea?