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peacewithin
Mar 29th 2010, 04:13 AM
Is there a verse in the Bible that mentions putting a tatoo on your body? I'm not wanting to get one, I was just wondering about it.
Thanks,
Beverly

PilgrimPastor
Mar 29th 2010, 04:21 AM
Is there a verse in the Bible that mentions putting a tatoo on your body? I'm not wanting to get one, I was just wondering about it.
Thanks,
Beverly

This is probably more than you were looking for... but as a Pastor who has tattoos, I have had to answer this question before, here is my answer to the tattoo thing for Christians, and the verse you are looking for is in the answer:

I didn’t really have time to adequately answer your question about what the Bible does or doesn’t say about tattoos. Here is what it says specifically, “You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD.” (Leviticus 19:28 ESV) In context, what the command is referring to is the pagan practice of marking one’s body as a part of pagan religious ritual, ceremonial rites in honor of dead “spirits,” and so on. Just a verse earlier the command says, “You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.” (Leviticus 19:27 ESV) While some orthodox Jews (not having the fullness of God’s revelation in Christ and still living under a very modified form of the Levitical law) may use this text or one similar as the reason behind the nature of their beard, no Christian that I am aware of has trouble with a man having any kind of beard; save perhaps for personal preference totally apart from any sense of religious obligation.

This whole section of prohibitions seem to relate to pagan religious customs which should be avoided, including pagan mourning rites (Leviticus 19:27-28), cultic prostitution (Leviticus 19:29, in contrast with proper worship of the Lord, Leviticus 19:30), and fortune tellers (Leviticus 19:31). The focus here has very little to do with the tattoo in and of itself and everything to do with abstaining from cultic / pagan religious rights and being completely dedicated to God in pure worship practice. In verse 26 of this same section of Scripture it says, “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it.” This is referring to Kosher dietary restrictions. Every time we eat a steak, we break this Levitical Law.

This, like many other Old Testament passages, can easily be cited out of context to support what is perhaps a cultural preference on the part of many Christians. It occurs to me from practical and biblical terms it is really a matter of preference in the same category as getting’s ones ears pierced. It would be very easy for someone to argue along similar lines to those who would use this passage out of context to support their dislike of tattoos that based on Paul’s admonishment for women to be modest that ear rings are unbiblical; in fact, I would argue that is probably more directly applicable from a contextual reading of those passages. I find it very indicative of what I would describe as the all too common American Church culture which is more concerned with the outward appearance than with the inward work of God’s spirit. “But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart." (1 Samuel 16:7 ESV)

So, I would say that there is no plain biblical command to abstain from tattoos unless those tattoos are a part of pagan worship and unless we are also going to stone adulteresses, stop eating steak, require all men have long beards, and take on a WHOLE BUNCH of other religious laws that the Church has long believed were fulfilled in Christ. We are under the law of liberty as New Testament Christians and enjoy freedom in Christ. This does not mean that all is permissible or that the Law has no place in Christian teaching, but it does mean that we are no longer bound to Levitical Law; we are bound to a much higher law in New Testament terms. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.” (John 15:9 ESV) Now there is a difficult command. It is much easier to keep ceremonial law than it is to be a reflection, and embodiment, a living demonstration of Christ life abiding (living, dwelling, making itself known) in us as we abide in Him.

I have had so many opportunities to share Christ with people who asked me what “Man of Sorrow” means under the face of Jesus with Crown of Thorns on my calf that I can’t count. I have spent hours answering questions about Christ love, the Bible, and may very well have been a part of God’s plan in drawing tattoo artists in closer fellowship with the Lord. That never would have happened otherwise. Tattoos are plainly not for everyone. I think that the issue of tattoos for Christians falls very much in line with Paul’s words in Romans 14 with regard to matters of preference. Here is a snippet of that chapter, I would recommend reading it in its entirety if it is unfamiliar. “One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.” (Romans 14:2-3 ESV)

crossnote
Mar 29th 2010, 05:08 AM
Is there a verse in the Bible that mentions putting a tatoo on your body? I'm not wanting to get one, I was just wondering about it.
Thanks,
Beverly

I suppose a backdoor justification would be-

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
(Col 2:20-23)

So it's fine, just watch what is being communicated via the tatoo.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 01:22 PM
How do tatoos fit with Phil 4:8? Finally brethren whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of a good report, if there be any virtue and if there be any praise think on these things.

How do tatoos relate to 1 Tim 4:2? A bishop (pastor) must be blameless.... vs 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

At best tatoos are unwise. At their worst they can be in direct opposition to the holiness of God.

Where is the wisdom in uncovering the body that tatoos can be seen? Is this the testimony we ought to have for Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

grit
Mar 29th 2010, 01:44 PM
I'd recommend not having it put on your forehead, unless you're really sure God's the one putting it there (Rev. 13:16 (http://bible.cc/revelation/13-16.htm); 20:4 (http://bible.cc/revelation/20-4.htm); Ex. 13:9 (http://bible.cc/exodus/13-9.htm), 16 (http://bible.cc/exodus/13-16.htm); Ezek. 9: (http://bible.cc/ezekiel/9-6.htm)6).

Firefighter
Mar 29th 2010, 01:48 PM
How do tatoos fit with Phil 4:8? Finally brethren whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of a good report, if there be any virtue and if there be any praise think on these things.

How do tatoos relate to 1 Tim 4:2? A bishop (pastor) must be blameless.... vs 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

At best tatoos are unwise. At their worst they can be in direct opposition to the holiness of God.

Where is the wisdom in uncovering the body that tatoos can be seen? Is this the testimony we ought to have for Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Much like the internet Roger, tattoos can be used for His glory. I have reached people that other couldn't reach BECAUSE of my tattoos.

Reynolds357
Mar 29th 2010, 02:20 PM
Much like the internet Roger, tattoos can be used for His glory. I have reached people that other couldn't reach BECAUSE of my tattoos.

There are people in prison who have reached other inmates with the Gospel, but I personally do not reccommend going out and getting arrested so that you can have a more effective jail ministry.

Reynolds357
Mar 29th 2010, 02:27 PM
How do tatoos fit with Phil 4:8? Finally brethren whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of a good report, if there be any virtue and if there be any praise think on these things.

How do tatoos relate to 1 Tim 4:2? A bishop (pastor) must be blameless.... vs 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

At best tatoos are unwise. At their worst they can be in direct opposition to the holiness of God.

Where is the wisdom in uncovering the body that tatoos can be seen? Is this the testimony we ought to have for Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I kind of find it odd that the time in my life I wanted tattoos was also the time in my life I was the furthest from God.
I further find it odd that now that God is my #1 priority, I have absolutely no desire to have tattoos.

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 29th 2010, 02:32 PM
There are people in prison who have reached other inmates with the Gospel, but I personally do not reccommend going out and getting arrested so that you can have a more effective jail ministry.

That's what I tried telling my pastor. I wasn't getting stone drunk on booze, I was doing ministry, trying to better reach my alcoholic down-and-out neighbours! Sadly he'd have none of it. Legalistic Pharisee!

Just kidding.

-SEEKING-
Mar 29th 2010, 03:16 PM
Is there a verse in the Bible that mentions putting a tatoo on your body? I'm not wanting to get one, I was just wondering about it.
Thanks,
Beverly

Curiosity got the best of me. If you're not wanting to get one, what prompted this question?

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 04:36 PM
Much like the internet Roger, tattoos can be used for His glory. I have reached people that other couldn't reach BECAUSE of my tattoos.
Is the arm of Jehovah shortened that He cannot save? The preaching of the cross does not make sinners comfortable with their sin. The preaching of the cross bring conviction of sin in the presence of the righteousness of Christ.

It is entirely self serving to conclude that God could not reach a soul without the aid of tatoos.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Reynolds357
Mar 29th 2010, 04:53 PM
Is the arm of Jehovah shortened that He cannot save? The preaching of the cross does not make sinners comfortable with their sin. The preaching of the cross bring conviction of sin in the presence of the righteousness of Christ.

It is entirely self serving to conclude that God could not reach a soul without the aid of tatoos.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Tattoos are one of those things that are between the person getting them and The Lord. I have no PERSONAL use for them. It is my PERSONAL belief that they are wrong for me. Tattoos are not like fornication. The Bible does not clearly prohibit them as it does some things(like fornication). It is my opinion that the weight of scripture tips the sclaes against them, but that is strictly my interpretation of scripture. I think in all honestly they fall into an area that Paul mentions of being sin for some but not sin for others.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 05:00 PM
Tattoos are one of those things that are between the person getting them and The Lord. I have no PERSONAL use for them. It is my PERSONAL belief that they are wrong for me. Tattoos are not like fornication. The Bible does not clearly prohibit them as it does some things(like fornication). It is my opinion that the weight of scripture tips the sclaes against them, but that is strictly my interpretation of scripture. I think in all honestly they fall into an area that Paul mentions of being sin for some but not sin for others.
At the risk of being argumentative how does one develop a strictly private interpretation of the scripture? Is the interpretation of the scriptures the work of the Holy Spirit or must interpretation find a place in social and personal mor'es?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Reynolds357
Mar 29th 2010, 05:06 PM
At the risk of being argumentative how does one develop a strictly private interpretation of the scripture? Is the interpretation of the scriptures the work of the Holy Spirit or must interpretation find a place in social and personal mor'es?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Saying dogmatcally that "tattoos are sin" would in my opinion be a "private interpretation of The Word."

tango
Mar 29th 2010, 05:14 PM
At the risk of being argumentative how does one develop a strictly private interpretation of the scripture? Is the interpretation of the scriptures the work of the Holy Spirit or must interpretation find a place in social and personal mor'es?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Some things are clearly forbidden by the Bible (e.g. "Thou shalt not commit adultery"). No room for interpretation there - don't do it.

Some things are clearly mandated by the Bible (e.g. "Love the Lord your God"). Again no room for interpretation - do it.

Most other things fall in between these two. There is no specific commandment to do it or abstain from it, so we get to make our own decisions. Which is where personal convictions come into play - if a Christian decided to have '666' tattooed on their forehead I'd be inclined to ask a few searching questions. If a Christian decided to have a cross tattooed on their arm with a verse or two of Scripture I'd leave them to it. If a Christian decided that tattoos weren't for them at all then that's fine too.

The Bible doesn't mention peanut butter anywhere as far as I can see. So does that mean we must not eat it on the basis it isn't expressly permitted, or that we are free to eat it on the basis it is not expressly prohibited? I believe the only conclusion we can draw is that anything that is not clearly prohibited must be a matter of personal conscience where we can make our own decisions, possibly guided by the Holy Spirit.

If the Spirit convicts someone to avoid a specific action then they should avoid it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody else should avoid it too. If we seek to impose our own interpretations of Scripture and our own convictions - and possibly even our own preferences - onto others we are in danger of becoming legalistic ourselves.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 05:33 PM
Saying dogmatcally that "tattoos are sin" would in my opinion be a "private interpretation of The Word."
So by the same measure to say dogmatically that tatoos are not sin is a private interpretation of the word of God.

I wonder if we as believers have the saltiness we ought to have? isaiah 64:6 ...all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags....

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Reynolds357
Mar 29th 2010, 05:41 PM
So by the same measure to say dogmatically that tatoos are not sin is a private interpretation of the word of God.

I wonder if we as believers have the saltiness we ought to have? isaiah 64:6 ...all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags....

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger. I implied that I do not dogmatically believe they were sin and that I did not dogmatically say they were not sin. I said I have "opinions" about them based in my interpretation of scripture. I said the Word does not give us enough information to say dogmatically one way or the other. You are saying they are sin. Others are saying they are not. I am saying that I do not think scripture is clear enough on them to concretely say they are or they are not.

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 05:46 PM
At best tatoos are unwise. At their worst they can be in direct opposition to the holiness of God.Roger, I still have to remind you that the same can be applied to internet use.

This however hasn't stopped you from being unwise ;) :P

Face it... your salt is tasteless to any Christian who declares the internet unwise the exact same way that you declare that tattoos are unwise. Your words would be meaningless to them. They even might label you... unwise!!! :eek:

Yet this doesn't stop you from using the internet?

Does it?

If you answer, you're on the internet... do you see how your words are hypocritical?

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 05:50 PM
Some things are clearly forbidden by the Bible (e.g. "Thou shalt not commit adultery"). No room for interpretation there - don't do it.

Some things are clearly mandated by the Bible (e.g. "Love the Lord your God"). Again no room for interpretation - do it.

Most other things fall in between these two. There is no specific commandment to do it or abstain from it, so we get to make our own decisions. Which is where personal convictions come into play - if a Christian decided to have '666' tattooed on their forehead I'd be inclined to ask a few searching questions. If a Christian decided to have a cross tattooed on their arm with a verse or two of Scripture I'd leave them to it. If a Christian decided that tattoos weren't for them at all then that's fine too.

The Bible doesn't mention peanut butter anywhere as far as I can see. So does that mean we must not eat it on the basis it isn't expressly permitted, or that we are free to eat it on the basis it is not expressly prohibited? I believe the only conclusion we can draw is that anything that is not clearly prohibited must be a matter of personal conscience where we can make our own decisions, possibly guided by the Holy Spirit.

If the Spirit convicts someone to avoid a specific action then they should avoid it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody else should avoid it too. If we seek to impose our own interpretations of Scripture and our own convictions - and possibly even our own preferences - onto others we are in danger of becoming legalistic ourselves.
Meats are for the belly and are passed out in the draught. Spiritual matters are not to be pushed aside as of no consequence.

How much like the world can a Christian be before he does harm to his/her testimony for Christ? We have a biblical mandate to come out from among them and be separate unto the Lord. 2 Cor 6:14-17

James asks does a fountain send forth both good water and bitter? Jas 3:11

I am not convinced that we as professing believers ought to stand idly by and tolerate heathen behaviour in the brethren.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

tango
Mar 29th 2010, 05:51 PM
So by the same measure to say dogmatically that tatoos are not sin is a private interpretation of the word of God.

I wonder if we as believers have the saltiness we ought to have? isaiah 64:6 ...all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags....

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If we start from the basis that all things are prohibited unless they are expressly permitted you'd best have your internet connection cut off now and we'd best also disconnect our electricity, telephones etc.

If we start from the basis that all things are permitted unless they are expressly prohibited then tattoos fall into the "permitted" category. That doesn't mean we must have them, nor that we must not. It means we get to make the decision for ourselves.

To say "tattoos are sinful" as a blanket statement is dogmatic, not least because it can't be directly supported by Scripture. To say "tattoos are not sinful" as a blanket statement is not dogmatic because it falls into the category of things where Scripture is silent (ignoring, of course, Lev 19:28 which was more about practises of the times than a blanket prohibition, as was Lev 19:27 about cutting beards). Since Scripture does not prohibit tattoos, for the majority of Christians tattoos are not automatically sinful. You may have a personal conviction not to be tattooed (or just have an aversion to needles) and that's fine. Nobody is saying you must have a tattoo.

Saying "tattoos are sinful" is restrictive - it takes choices away. Saying "tattoos are not sinful" is not restrictive, it is permissive. It grants the option to have them, or not have them, as you choose.

tango
Mar 29th 2010, 05:54 PM
Meats are for the belly and are passed out in the draught. Spiritual matters are not to be pushed aside as of no consequence.

How much like the world can a Christian be before he does harm to his/her testimony for Christ? We have a biblical mandate to come out from among them and be separate unto the Lord. 2 Cor 6:14-17

James asks does a fountain send forth both good water and bitter? Jas 3:11

I am not convinced that we as professing believers ought to stand idly by and tolerate heathen behaviour in the brethren.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You're going right back to your usual method of arguing these things here. Can you show how the passages you quote are relevant to the discussion?

How much like the world can a Christian be? Where do you draw the line? Should we avoid being like those nasty heathens who do things like eat, breathe, sleep? Should we avoid wearing clothes to make our distinction clear? Where does separation start and taking things to pointless extremes stop?

Your comparison between good water and bitter is somewhat irrelevant here, unless you can show how a tattoo represents one or the other. We could say the same thing about any modern day provisions or things as simple as eating and sleeping. How can we worship God while simultaneously indulging in such heathen practises as eating? How can we be set apart if we insist on sleeping in beds, like the heathens do?

Firefighter
Mar 29th 2010, 06:01 PM
Is the arm of Jehovah shortened that He cannot save...

Is the arm of Jehovah shortened that He cannot use a tattoo to accomplish His purpose????

Reynolds357
Mar 29th 2010, 06:05 PM
Is the arm of Jehovah shortened that He cannot use a tattoo to accomplish His purpose????

The arm of The Lord is only shortened at certain times, in certain cases.:lol:

Firefighter
Mar 29th 2010, 06:06 PM
How much like the world can a Christian be? Where do you draw the line? Should we avoid being like those nasty heathens who do things like eat, breathe, sleep? Should we avoid wearing clothes to make our distinction clear? Where does separation start and taking things to pointless extremes stop?

Easy question. It all starts and stops where his PERSONAL preferences start and stop...

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 06:08 PM
Easy question. It all starts and stops where his PERSONAL preferences start and stop...

I would say personal "opinion" instead because we sure see who he applies his opinion to tattoos but not the internet.

Firefighter
Mar 29th 2010, 06:16 PM
This goes for all of us, not just Roger, but I cannot help but to be reminded of something George Carlin Said in the 80's. Although the original context was driving, it seems to apply to just about everything...

Ever notice that anybody with religious views more conservative than your's is a wacko religious zealot, and anybody with religious views less conservative than your is a flaming liberal carnal Christian???

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 06:29 PM
Roger, I still have to remind you that the same can be applied to internet use.

This however hasn't stopped you from being unwise ;) :P

Face it... your salt is tasteless to any Christian who declares the internet unwise the exact same way that you declare that tattoos are unwise. Your words would be meaningless to them. They even might label you... unwise!!! :eek:

Yet this doesn't stop you from using the internet?

Does it?

If you answer, you're on the internet... do you see how your words are hypocritical?
I of course respecfully disagree with you. Perhaps, if you can convince those who have established this site as a ministry to close and withdrawl from the internet I might be able to attribute some credibility to your argument.

Why would a Christian endeavor to accuse another of sin in order to justify his/her own behaviour? Even if the internet were a sin, which has yet to be reaonably established, how would it justify someone else getting a tatoo?

You like parables so go and read Luke 18:9-14. Is is right to compare our actions to those of other men or to what the word of God prescribes?

When I read Phil 4:8 and think on tatoos I do not find any virtue.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Mar 29th 2010, 07:00 PM
When I read Phil 4:8 and think on tatoos I do not find any virtue.

Then by all means, YOU had better not get a tattoo. Unless you can come up with a valid scripture prohibiting them, I would think it wise to quit assuming you know the mind of God on the subject.

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 07:10 PM
I of course respecfully disagree with you. Perhaps, if you can convince those who have established this site as a ministry to close and withdrawl from the internet I might be able to attribute some credibility to your argument.

Why would a Christian endeavor to accuse another of sin in order to justify his/her own behaviour? Even if the internet were a sin, which has yet to be reaonably established, how would it justify someone else getting a tatoo?

You like parables so go and read Luke 18:9-14. Is is right to compare our actions to those of other men or to what the word of God prescribes?

When I read Phil 4:8 and think on tatoos I do not find any virtue.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The point Roger is this... if the internet was a city block... next door to this ministry is a site that is a porn shop, next to that is a site for homosexuality, next site is how to create meth in your home, next to that is a site for developing a pipebomb...

And you want to say tattoos are unwise but say the internet is wise because you feel it is?

Well, in our short walk of the internet we came to a ministry for God, a porn site, a site for homosexuals, a site on how to create drugs, and how to create bombs.

You do know that the internet is full of sites that are not of God... correct?

God does use the internet, you have read my testimony of my tattoos and how God uses them and now, UM has testified to the same. Does this make tattoos "wise" and others unwise... YES!

Does this make tattoos unwise, and some wise... YES!

Does this make ALL tattoos unwise... NO!

Just as all internet use, such as how you use it, or this ministry uses it... wise/unwise either because we all know God will use the internet just as He uses an individual with a tattoo(s) vs how the enemy will use the internet or individuals with tattoos.

Ya gotta stop being so hypocritical, it does not flavor the salt.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 07:21 PM
Then by all means, YOU had better not get a tattoo. Unless you can come up with a valid scripture prohibiting them, I would think it wise to quit assuming you know the mind of God on the subject.
I do not plan to get a tattoo. I would not advise anyone else to get a tattoo and especially not someone who names the name of Christ. I ought to have the mind of Christ in this matter.

Things that are of doubtful reputation ought not to be glamorized among believers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 07:34 PM
The point Roger is this... if the internet was a city block... next door to this ministry is a site that is a porn shop, next to that is a site for homosexuality, next site is how to create meth in your home, next to that is a site for developing a pipebomb...

And you want to say tattoos are unwise but say the internet is wise because you feel it is?

Well, in our short walk of the internet we came to a ministry for God, a porn site, a site for homosexuals, a site on how to create drugs, and how to create bombs.

You do know that the internet is full of sites that are not of God... correct?

God does use the internet, you have read my testimony of my tattoos and how God uses them and now, UM has testified to the same. Does this make tattoos "wise" and others unwise... YES!

Does this make tattoos unwise, and some wise... YES!

Does this make ALL tattoos unwise... NO!

Just as all internet use, such as how you use it, or this ministry uses it... wise/unwise either because we all know God will use the internet just as He uses an individual with a tattoo(s) vs how the enemy will use the internet or individuals with tattoos.

Ya gotta stop being so hypocritical, it does not flavor the salt.
When you must justify your position by accusing another of being a hypocrite you have demonstrated beyond any reasonable measure that your argument has not real merit.

I am not trying to change the minds of those who already have tattoos. I am advocating for those who do not have tattoos and may be considering getting one.

When I testify of Christ I do not testify of my sin but of His forgivness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

tango
Mar 29th 2010, 08:08 PM
I of course respecfully disagree with you. Perhaps, if you can convince those who have established this site as a ministry to close and withdrawl from the internet I might be able to attribute some credibility to your argument.

The problem is your argument can easily be summarised in a few simple steps.

1. Let us assume tattoos are sinful
2. Christians are called to abstain from sin
3. Therefore Christians must abstain from tattoos.

Easy... proof provided. But unless you can demonstrate why tattoos are sinful, as opposed to starting from a preconceived idea, the process doesn't work. We could substitute tattoos for any one of the contentious issues Christians often discuss, or something utterly mundane like using the internet or eating peanut butter.


Why would a Christian endeavor to accuse another of sin in order to justify his/her own behaviour? Even if the internet were a sin, which has yet to be reaonably established, how would it justify someone else getting a tatoo?

Getting a tattoo being sinful has also yet to be reasonably established.


You like parables so go and read Luke 18:9-14. Is is right to compare our actions to those of other men or to what the word of God prescribes?

What has that parable got to do with whether tattoos are sinful or not? You're falling back on vague pieces of Scripture quoted without any indication how they are relevant? How is getting a tattoo not comparing our actions to the word of God? Can you show a specific passage (and not Lev 19:28 unless you also want to be subject to Lev 19:27) why tattoos are sinful, as opposed to you having a personal dislike of them?


When I read Phil 4:8 and think on tatoos I do not find any virtue.
So don't get a tattoo. But the fact you don't find any virtue doesn't mean that nobody else should have a tattoo - it doesn't mean they are sinful, it just means you personally don't like the idea much. For what it's worth I don't like the idea of tattoos, not least because I don't like needles. That doesn't give me the right to tell other people they shouldn't have tattoos either.

I could equally say "When I read Phil 4:8 and think on peanut butter I do not find any virtue" and conclude that eating peanut butter is therefore sinful.

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 08:36 PM
When you must justify your position by accusing another of being a hypocrite you have demonstrated beyond any reasonable measure that your argument has not real merit.

I am not trying to change the minds of those who already have tattoos. I am advocating for those who do not have tattoos and may be considering getting one.

When I testify of Christ I do not testify of my sin but of His forgivness.

For the cause of Christ
RogerRoger... apply all you say about tattoos to someone you are speaking to who says they want to buy a computer so they can surf the internet.

Then you will understand.

Reynolds357
Mar 29th 2010, 08:40 PM
I do not plan to get a tattoo. I would not advise anyone else to get a tattoo and especially not someone who names the name of Christ. I ought to have the mind of Christ in this matter.

Things that are of doubtful reputation ought not to be glamorized among believers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You "ought to have the mind of Christ on this matter."

That is a strong statement. That is getting pretty close to "God told me."

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 08:44 PM
I do not plan to get a tattoo. I would not advise anyone else to get a tattoo and especially not someone who names the name of Christ. I ought to have the mind of Christ in this matter.

Things that are of doubtful reputation ought not to be glamorized among believers.

For the cause of Christ
RogerAgain, based on all that the internet is used for... apply your words to internet use. My opinion only 10% of the internet glorifies and is used for God.

Yet you still use the internet? Do you honestly feel that the internet doesn't have a doubtful reputation??

The internet is used by satan to bind so many to sin... yet you use it and don't say a word against the internet but will say all you say about tattoos!

Based on your replies to what I'm trying to point out to you, I'd say that you are defending the internet... if you did apply all your words to the internet would you look at internet use and not advise a person to buy a computer for the purpose of surfing the net?

Then as you apply your words to yourself and would never get a tattoo, but would this stop you from buying a new puter if the one you have fries and stops working... just so you can get back onto the internet?

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 08:50 PM
The problem is your argument can easily be summarised in a few simple steps.

1. Let us assume tattoos are sinful
2. Christians are called to abstain from sin
3. Therefore Christians must abstain from tattoos.

Easy... proof provided. But unless you can demonstrate why tattoos are sinful, as opposed to starting from a preconceived idea, the process doesn't work. We could substitute tattoos for any one of the contentious issues Christians often discuss, or something utterly mundane like using the internet or eating peanut butter.
Eating peanut butter is not an activity associated with paganism unless it is smooth peanut butter. Only crunchy peanut butter is spiritual.


Getting a tattoo being sinful has also yet to be reasonably established.
Spiritual separation is doctrinal. 2 Cor 6:11-17 If you cannot decern the things of this world that you ought to avoid then ask of the Lord. Many of the things you embrace as harmless are robbing you of fellowship with Christ.


What has that parable got to do with whether tattoos are sinful or not? You're falling back on vague pieces of Scripture quoted without any indication how they are relevant? How is getting a tattoo not comparing our actions to the word of God? Can you show a specific passage (and not Lev 19:28 unless you also want to be subject to Lev 19:27) why tattoos are sinful, as opposed to you having a personal dislike of them?
We are not to compare ourselves with other men but compare ourselves with the word of God. What of Lev 19:29? There is much wisdom in the 19th chapter of Leviticus. The practical aspects of verse 27 could be debated but that does not diminish the rest of what is written there.


So don't get a tattoo. But the fact you don't find any virtue doesn't mean that nobody else should have a tattoo - it doesn't mean they are sinful, it just means you personally don't like the idea much. For what it's worth I don't like the idea of tattoos, not least because I don't like needles. That doesn't give me the right to tell other people they shouldn't have tattoos either.
Well there are many who are like the dumb dogs that cannot bark. Isaiah 56:10 Sorry if that seems vague to you but I like it.


I could equally say "When I read Phil 4:8 and think on peanut butter I do not find any virtue" and conclude that eating peanut butter is therefore sinful.
But the Lord has said it is not what goes into the belly that corrupts a man rather it is that which proceedes out of his heart. Either you desire to be pure and holy or you don't. Phil 3:12-14 Not as though I had already attained either were already perfect but I follow after if that I may apprehend that for which I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren I count not myself to have apprehended but this one thing I do forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth unto those things which are before I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 08:59 PM
You "ought to have the mind of Christ on this matter."

That is a strong statement. That is getting pretty close to "God told me."
1 Cor 2:16 ...but we have the mind of Christ. You are correct that it is a weighty matter. God has not told me anything that He has not written in His word for all believers. Not all believers can tolerate solid food and many are still in need of milk.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

tango
Mar 29th 2010, 09:10 PM
Eating peanut butter is not an activity associated with paganism unless it is smooth peanut butter. Only crunchy peanut butter is spiritual.

Spiritual separation is doctrinal. 2 Cor 6:11-17 If you cannot decern the things of this world that you ought to avoid then ask of the Lord. Many of the things you embrace as harmless are robbing you of fellowship with Christ.

Yes, that's another spiritual generalisation that still hasn't addressed why you think tattoos are specifically "of this world" while peanut butter and the internet are not.


We are not to compare ourselves with other men but compare ourselves with the word of God. What of Lev 19:29? There is much wisdom in the 19th chapter of Leviticus. The practical aspects of verse 27 could be debated but that does not diminish the rest of what is written there.

So should we assume you do not cut the edges of your beard? Do you also avoid eating meat that isn't well done - Lev 19:26 forbids eating anything "with the blood"? Do you avoid wearing garments of mixed linen and wool as required by Lev 19:19?


Well there are many who are like the dumb dogs that cannot bark. Isaiah 56:10 Sorry if that seems vague to you but I like it.

If you'd care to show how any of the Scriptures you keep quoting are relevant to the situation it would help a lot.



But the Lord has said it is not what goes into the belly that corrupts a man rather it is that which proceedes out of his heart. Either you desire to be pure and holy or you don't. Phil 3:12-14 Not as though I had already attained either were already perfect but I follow after if that I may apprehend that for which I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren I count not myself to have apprehended but this one thing I do forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth unto those things which are before I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Jesus Christ.

And so the avoiding of the subject continues. How are having a tattoo and desiring to be pure and holy mutually exclusive, yet at the same time surfing the internet and desiring to be pure and holy are not mutually exclusive? If you're starting your entire thought process with the assumption that tattoos are sinful then everything will point back to the assumption. But you can't use an assumption to prove that assumption, it doesn't make sense. Using that form of logic we could assume going to church was sinful, draw out a long list of circular steps and conclude that going to church was sinful. That method of reasoning falls apart very rapidly.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2010, 09:16 PM
Again, based on all that the internet is used for... apply your words to internet use. My opinion only 10% of the internet glorifies and is used for God.

Yet you still use the internet? Do you honestly feel that the internet doesn't have a doubtful reputation??

The internet is used by satan to bind so many to sin... yet you use it and don't say a word against the internet but will say all you say about tattoos!

Based on your replies to what I'm trying to point out to you, I'd say that you are defending the internet... if you did apply all your words to the internet would you look at internet use and not advise a person to buy a computer for the purpose of surfing the net?

Then as you apply your words to yourself and would never get a tattoo, but would this stop you from buying a new puter if the one you have fries and stops working... just so you can get back onto the internet?
Make your point. Only 1% of those who shop in the grocery store are Christians must I stop buying food? Only 1 in 10 that go to church are Christians does that mean that I must forsake the local assembly? I drink coffee does that make me a sinner? I eschew iced coffee so I probably would be an outcast in some circles.

It is true that I come here to bibleforums and on occasion I feel like a voice crying out in the wilderness but as long as my Lord is with me I remain in the majority.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

-SEEKING-
Mar 29th 2010, 09:27 PM
Hey guys. Honestly. Is all this debate over tattoos really worth it? Is it worth getting angry about, and others getting angry about what we say? I don't mean to belittle when someone has a legitimate question. But come on. Seriously! We get so worked up over tattoos?

And that's all I have to say about that.

Blessings to all of you.

Firefighter
Mar 29th 2010, 09:29 PM
You "ought to have the mind of Christ on this matter."

That is a strong statement. That is getting pretty close to "God told me."

I actually agreed with that statement... he ought to have the mind of Christ on this matter. ;)

Slug1
Mar 29th 2010, 09:38 PM
Make your point. Only 1% of those who shop in the grocery store are Christians must I stop buying food? Only 1 in 10 that go to church are Christians does that mean that I must forsake the local assembly? I drink coffee does that make me a sinner? I eschew iced coffee so I probably would be an outcast in some circles.

It is true that I come here to bibleforums and on occasion I feel like a voice crying out in the wilderness but as long as my Lord is with me I remain in the majority.

For the cause of Christ
RogerThe point Roger is simple... just as you said all this and all about the internet, is the same with tattoos.

Tattoos in themselves are not unwise nor sinful... use/styles of them, can be.... just as the internet in itself is not unwise nor sinful... use/purpose for it, can be.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 29th 2010, 09:41 PM
Hey guys. Honestly. Is all this debate over tattoos really worth it? Is it worth getting angry about, and others getting angry about what we say? I don't mean to belittle when someone has a legitimate question. But come on. Seriously! We get so worked up over tattoos?

And that's all I have to say about that.

Blessings to all of you.

It seems that when Revelation 13 is allowed to come to pass...

the tattoo..... will be the central focus of 'worship'... as those who pay homage to the beast and his system... will recieve it........ as they are 'marked' for their worship.. and allegiance....

and only those who have them will be 'allowed' to buy or sell.. as it is Written in the Word of God...

this a day coming in the future..


the 'tattoo'........ will play a major role in the upcoming climate of this planet...

and I'm not saying those who have tattoos Today.. are devil worhsippers...

thats not the case...

but in the coming Future...

the 'tattoo' will play a huge role in the lives of people.. right now they just don't know how much they will... but it will set father against mother, children against their parents, it will cause many to be delivered up.. and 'questioned'....... as to why they don't 'sport' one.. in Honour.. of him whose deadly wound was healed..


he that hath ears let him hear..

Firefighter
Mar 29th 2010, 09:49 PM
Any significant evidence to suggest that the mark will be a tattoo???

Reynolds357
Mar 30th 2010, 12:03 AM
Any significant evidence to suggest that the mark will be a tattoo???

It would seem that THE MARK will be a micro chip.

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 30th 2010, 12:59 AM
A good article from Gotquestions.org

Question: "What does the Bible say about tattoos / body piercings?"

Answer: The Old Testament law commanded the Israelites, “Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD” (Leviticus 19:28 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Leviticus%2019.28)). So, even though believers today are not under the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Romans%2010.4); Galatians 3:23-25 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Galatians%203.23-25); Ephesians 2:15 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Ephesians%202.15)), the fact that there was a command against tattoos should raise some questions. The New Testament does not say anything about whether or not a believer should get a tattoo.

In relation to tattoos and body piercings, a good test is to determine whether we can honestly, in good conscience, ask God to bless and use that particular activity for His own good purposes. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%2010.31)). The New Testament does not command against tattoos or body piercings, but it also does not give us any reason to believe God would have us get tattoos or body piercings.

An important scriptural principle on issues the Bible does not specifically address is if there is room for doubt whether it pleases God, then it is best not to engage in that activity. Romans 14:23 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Romans%2014.23) reminds us that anything that does not come from faith is sin. We need to remember that our bodies, as well as our souls, have been redeemed and belong to God. Although 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%206.19-20) does not directly apply to tattoos or body piercings, it does give us a principle: “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.” This great truth should have a real bearing on what we do and where we go with our bodies. If our bodies belong to God, we should make sure we have His clear “permission” before we “mark them up” with tattoos or body piercings.

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 30th 2010, 01:25 AM
Then by all means, YOU had better not get a tattoo. Unless you can come up with a valid scripture prohibiting them, I would think it wise to quit assuming you know the mind of God on the subject.

The word of the Lord does say very clearly that the Lord forbids tattoos.

Lev 19:28 You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD.

In past discussions of this nature, some said this is Old Testament Law and therefore is no longer applicable. To justify that view proponents appeal to the verse preceeding it to justify this viewpoint:

Lev 19:27 You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

I find that this line of argument holds no water for the following reason. In that same verse itself in Lev 19:28, it says it is forbidden to cut ourselves for the dead. That same Law is in the very same verse as the tattoing Law. I would then ask, since we're living in the NT does it then mean that it is now permissable to cut ourselves for the dead?

Further, it is argued that it is ok if one tattoos Christian images because this Law was given to distinguish Israel from its pagan neighbours and is thus no longer applicable today. Then I ask, there are not many civilized people groups today who cut themselves for the dead, actually none that I know of. And if you're reading this I assume you're civilized because you know how to use a computer. So my question: Since cutting ourselves for the dead is no longer associated with any kind of religious practice, is it therefore ok to cut ourselves for the dead?

In appealing to that verse speaking of cutitng the corners of our head, proponents of tattoos argue that if you keep one of the OT Laws you're obligated to keep them all. However, a simple examination of this kind of argument will again find that it holds no water whatsoever.

We only need to look briefly at the other surrounding verses around the one concerning tattoos to understand this without a doubt.

Lev 19:26 "You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.

- can we say that eating flesh with blood in it is ok now in the NT?
- can we then also say that we can now interpret omens and tell fortunes? That this does not apply to us anymore?

Lev 19:29 "Do not profane your daughter by making her a prostitute, lest the land fall into prostitution and the land become full of depravity.

- can we also argue that since we're in the NT, prostitution is fair game, since Jesus ate with prostitutes anyway! Can we reason this way? Will the land still fall into depravity if we make our daughters to be prostitutes, or is that impossible now since we're living in the NT?

Lev 19:30 You shall keep my Sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

- well, the NT expressly says that we don't have to keep the Sabbath anymore, but how about revering God's sanctuary? Is that no longer applicable to us in the NT now? Can we turn the church into a funhouse and a circus or madhouse?

Lev 19:31 "Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God.

- what about this? Is it still applicable? Can we turn to mediums or necromancers?

Lev 19:32 "You shall stand up before the gray head and honor the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the LORD.

- do we still need to honor the old among us, to show respect and stand in their prescence?

Lev 19:33 "When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.

- is it fair game to oppress the sojourner?

Lev 19:34 You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

- how about this? do we treat the strangers among us badly because we live in the NT?

Lev 19:35 "You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measures of length or weight or quantity.

- what about this?

Lev 19:36 You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin: I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

- and this?

jman013
Mar 30th 2010, 01:39 AM
To be completely honest, the Bible has no significant and substantial verses saying that marking your skin is sinful, unless it is for pagan reasons or reasons that do not glorify God. In I Corinthians 8 (NIV), it says

"9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."

I do not have a Doctorate so I may be misinterpreting this, but what I take from this verse is that, for things that are allowed or that the Bible is not specific about (not just eating unclean food), it is up to us to decide whether or not we do it. 1 Corinthians 8:13 makes the guidelines that if it makes another Christian fall, then you should not do it, and other verses state that all things must be done to God's glory. I believe Tattoos falls into the 'unclear' category, and there are no moral implications that make tattoos bad, other than being worn by many non-Christians.

I have not heard a single story of a Christian falling away from Christ because a friend got a tattoo. On the flip side, as PilgrimPastor mentioned, he has had many opportunities to bring non-believers into Christianity because of his tattoos. By wearing them, he is relating to the sinners without sinning himself. Isn't this similar to what Jesus often did? Jesus commonly associated Himself with tax collectors and sinners, yet he himself never sinned. Similarly, by wearing tattoos with non-heathen pictures, one would be associating himself or herself with those he or she is reaching out to.

On a personal note, though, I would never get a tattoo simply because of the permanency of it.

nzyr
Mar 30th 2010, 02:14 AM
Is there a verse in the Bible that mentions putting a tatoo on your body? I'm not wanting to get one, I was just wondering about it.
Thanks,
Beverly

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19:28)

PilgrimPastor
Mar 30th 2010, 04:04 AM
To be completely honest, the Bible has no significant and substantial verses saying that marking your skin is sinful, unless it is for pagan reasons or reasons that do not glorify God. In I Corinthians 8 (NIV), it says

"9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."

I do not have a Doctorate so I may be misinterpreting this, but what I take from this verse is that, for things that are allowed or that the Bible is not specific about (not just eating unclean food), it is up to us to decide whether or not we do it. 1 Corinthians 8:13 makes the guidelines that if it makes another Christian fall, then you should not do it, and other verses state that all things must be done to God's glory. I believe Tattoos falls into the 'unclear' category, and there are no moral implications that make tattoos bad, other than being worn by many non-Christians.

I have not heard a single story of a Christian falling away from Christ because a friend got a tattoo. On the flip side, as PilgrimPastor mentioned, he has had many opportunities to bring non-believers into Christianity because of his tattoos. By wearing them, he is relating to the sinners without sinning himself. Isn't this similar to what Jesus often did? Jesus commonly associated Himself with tax collectors and sinners, yet he himself never sinned. Similarly, by wearing tattoos with non-heathen pictures, one would be associating himself or herself with those he or she is reaching out to.

On a personal note, though, I would never get a tattoo simply because of the permanency of it.

I appreciate your thoughts, but it may a bit of an overstatement to say that I have brought people to Christ "because" of my tattoos. I have had lots of common ground built with strangers, conversations with unbelievers, etc. However I wear a robe, not a tank top, on Sunday morning and I have surely been used of God to bring more people to the Lord in that setting than in line at a grocery store when someone notices the face of Jesus with the words, "Man of Sorrow" on my calf.

The point is, I am convinced, tattoos are not for everybody, but can be a good witness tool, although for some, it can offend just as easily. This simply not an area where should be to dogmatic, I would humbly suggest.

peacewithin
Mar 30th 2010, 04:06 AM
Curiosity got the best of me. If you're not wanting to get one, what prompted this question?

One of my grandsons mentioned getting one and I wanted to be able to give him a scripture from the Bible before I started in telling him how I would rather him not get one.

crossnote
Mar 30th 2010, 04:06 AM
Ever notice that anybody with religious views more conservative than your's is a wacko religious zealot, and anybody with religious views less conservative than your is a flaming liberal carnal Christian???

U.M. You sure you want to use the word 'flaming'? :B

peacewithin
Mar 30th 2010, 04:20 AM
I don't think I would even bring george carlin into this discussion, he was an atheist and made fun of Christians and their beliefs. I used to love him till he got so sacreligious (sorry about the spelling)I don't mean any disrespect to you, I just hated that he turned so different in the later years.

This goes for all of us, not just Roger, but I cannot help but to be reminded of something George Carlin Said in the 80's. Although the original context was driving, it seems to apply to just about everything...

Ever notice that anybody with religious views more conservative than your's is a wacko religious zealot, and anybody with religious views less conservative than your is a flaming liberal carnal Christian???

tango
Mar 30th 2010, 12:19 PM
The word of the Lord does say very clearly that the Lord forbids tattoos.

Lev 19:28 You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD.

In past discussions of this nature, some said this is Old Testament Law and therefore is no longer applicable. To justify that view proponents appeal to the verse preceeding it to justify this viewpoint:

Lev 19:27 You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

I find that this line of argument holds no water for the following reason. In that same verse itself in Lev 19:28, it says it is forbidden to cut ourselves for the dead. That same Law is in the very same verse as the tattoing Law. I would then ask, since we're living in the NT does it then mean that it is now permissable to cut ourselves for the dead?

Further, it is argued that it is ok if one tattoos Christian images because this Law was given to distinguish Israel from its pagan neighbours and is thus no longer applicable today. Then I ask, there are not many civilized people groups today who cut themselves for the dead, actually none that I know of. And if you're reading this I assume you're civilized because you know how to use a computer. So my question: Since cutting ourselves for the dead is no longer associated with any kind of religious practice, is it therefore ok to cut ourselves for the dead?

In appealing to that verse speaking of cutitng the corners of our head, proponents of tattoos argue that if you keep one of the OT Laws you're obligated to keep them all. However, a simple examination of this kind of argument will again find that it holds no water whatsoever.

We only need to look briefly at the other surrounding verses around the one concerning tattoos to understand this without a doubt.

Lev 19:26 "You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.

- can we say that eating flesh with blood in it is ok now in the NT?
- can we then also say that we can now interpret omens and tell fortunes? That this does not apply to us anymore?

Lev 19:29 "Do not profane your daughter by making her a prostitute, lest the land fall into prostitution and the land become full of depravity.

- can we also argue that since we're in the NT, prostitution is fair game, since Jesus ate with prostitutes anyway! Can we reason this way? Will the land still fall into depravity if we make our daughters to be prostitutes, or is that impossible now since we're living in the NT?

Lev 19:30 You shall keep my Sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

- well, the NT expressly says that we don't have to keep the Sabbath anymore, but how about revering God's sanctuary? Is that no longer applicable to us in the NT now? Can we turn the church into a funhouse and a circus or madhouse?

Lev 19:31 "Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God.

- what about this? Is it still applicable? Can we turn to mediums or necromancers?

Lev 19:32 "You shall stand up before the gray head and honor the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the LORD.

- do we still need to honor the old among us, to show respect and stand in their prescence?

Lev 19:33 "When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.

- is it fair game to oppress the sojourner?

Lev 19:34 You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

- how about this? do we treat the strangers among us badly because we live in the NT?

Lev 19:35 "You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measures of length or weight or quantity.

- what about this?

Lev 19:36 You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin: I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

- and this?

I'm not sure it's helpful to simply cast everything aside simply because it's from the Old Testament, or just because it's from Leviticus. Some aspects of Leviticus appear intended to set the Israelites apart from their pagan neighbours and other parts effectively reiterate what was already required elsewhere (e.g. the issue of prostitution does align with the commandment against adultery)

I think if we look at what Jesus had to say about the Law things fall into sharp focus:

Mat 22:37-40 NKJV Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' (40) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Much of what is said in this section of Leviticus can be tested against this summary of all the Law.

Should we do wrong to strangers sojourning in our land? No, to do so would be to fail to love them. Should we use unjust balances? No, that would involve deceiving (and therefore not loving) those with whom we trade. Should we turn to mediums and necromancers? To do so would be to fail to love God above all others, and puts demons in the place reserved for God.

Should we let our daughters become prostitutes? Saying that Jesus ate with prostitutes isn't really relevant here, given we can safely assume Jesus didn't trade with prostitutes in the way other men might have done. But does letting our daughters become prostitutes love God above all else? It's hard to see how - Jesus said that merely lusting after someone was effectively committing adultery and, since he didn't say that it was acceptable to commit adultery now, we can safely assume that adultery is still considered unacceptable. Unless prostitutes can arouse at least some level of passion in a prospective client they are unlikely to be very successful, and therefore their trade requires lust, which in turn becomes adultery, which is prohibited.

Does making marks on our skin dishonour God? Personally I don't see how we can make such a blanket statement, even though it's not something I personally have any desire to do. Of course it depends exactly what we mark on our skin. Just like we can use the internet to browse sites like this one that seek to honour God or we can use the internet to browse for the most extreme pornography imaginable, so I think we can use tattoos to honour God or we can use them to dishonour God.

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 12:28 PM
In past discussions of this nature, some said this is Old Testament Law and therefore is no longer applicable. To justify that view proponents appeal to the verse preceeding it to justify this viewpoint:

Lev 19:27 You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

I find that this line of argument holds no water

Can someone explain to me how the "You shall not" in verse 28 is applicable while the "You shall not" in verse 27 is not.

Slug1
Mar 30th 2010, 12:56 PM
Can someone explain to me how the "You shall not" in verse 28 is applicable while the "You shall not" in verse 27 is not.I've asked this question many, many times... the hair on my chin is turning grey but I still do shave and those who force 28 down my throat, still don't say anything about me trimming my greying beard. The hair at my temples, is about 8 inches long and pulled back with the rest of the ponytail... maybe that's why those who force 28 upon everyone, leave me alone concerning 27??

That spirit of legalism and religion is so random :rolleyes:

notuptome
Mar 30th 2010, 04:45 PM
We cannot discard Leviticus 19 because it is part of the word of God and it is profitable for us as Christians. We do not keep the law for righteousness sake since we have Christ and His perfect righteousness.

One of the things your mom should have told you when you were growing up would be that tattoos are for cattle or livestock but not for people. One of the things as Christians we need to know would be that tattoos and Christmas trees are both associated with paganism. When Paul outlines the qualities that a bishop or pastor in the church ought to have he includes he must be of a good report of them who are outside. 1 Tim 3:7 These qualities are not limited to pastors but apply to all Christians.

I am troubled by the attitude of some that the word of God can be mocked and demeaned because it specifies the grooming of the hair and beard. How is it right to ridicule some verses of scripture?

I find it easier to explain a Christmas tree in my living room than a tattoo. I guess I was raised with a different sense of propriety. I would not be comfortable wearing shorts or jeans to church so go figure. What shall become of us? Isa 56:10 His watchmen are blind; they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping lying down, loving to slumber.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 30th 2010, 04:56 PM
I find it easier to explain a Christmas tree in my living room than a tattoo. I guess I was raised with a different sense of propriety. I would not be comfortable wearing shorts or jeans to church so go figure. What shall become of us? Isa 56:10 His watchmen are blind; they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping lying down, loving to slumber.

For the cause of Christ
RogerSo, is your opinion of tattoos... learned? If not, they why do you find it easier to explain the tree? Anything "learned" can be victim of pick and choose and you chose to stick to your learning and thus opinion of tattoos vs the Christmas tree... I mean, we don't want to make a bunch of children upset at Christmas time that there is no more tree... right? So, keep it up, it's easier.

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 04:58 PM
Shorts, jeans, tattoos, and Christmas trees have NOTHING to do with slumber...


I guess I was raised with a different sense of propriety.

Now you are talking... "You were raised with". Before you take a stand on something being sinful or not, shouldn't that sentence start with "God says..." instead of "Mama Said..."?

tango
Mar 30th 2010, 04:58 PM
We cannot discard Leviticus 19 because it is part of the word of God and it is profitable for us as Christians. We do not keep the law for righteousness sake since we have Christ and His perfect righteousness.

One of the things your mom should have told you when you were growing up would be that tattoos are for cattle or livestock but not for people. One of the things as Christians we need to know would be that tattoos and Christmas trees are both associated with paganism. When Paul outlines the qualities that a bishop or pastor in the church ought to have he includes he must be of a good report of them who are outside. 1 Tim 3:7 These qualities are not limited to pastors but apply to all Christians.

I am troubled by the attitude of some that the word of God can be mocked and demeaned because it specifies the grooming of the hair and beard. How is it right to ridicule some verses of scripture?

I find it easier to explain a Christmas tree in my living room than a tattoo. I guess I was raised with a different sense of propriety. I would not be comfortable wearing shorts or jeans to church so go figure. What shall become of us? Isa 56:10 His watchmen are blind; they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping lying down, loving to slumber.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It's all about context. Much of the last verse of 2 Timothy is clearly normal correspondence between two people that has little, if indeed any, relevance to us today. For example this:

2Ti 4:11-15 NKJV Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry. (12) And Tychicus I have sent to Ephesus. (13) Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments. (14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works. (15) You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words.

is obviously very specific to the situation at the time. If you ever come to visit me there's really no need to bring books, parchments, or indeed the cloak that I didn't leave with Carpus at Troas.

I don't think anyone is saying we should discard Leviticus 19, we're talking about reading it in context. I don't think it's fair to say people are mocking God's word because we don't abide by Lev 19:27 these days, that's just showing that context is important. In the same way we don't restrict what we wear even though Lev 19:19 says that we should, and since it doesn't specify any situations we can only assume it's a blanket instruction rather than anything specific to anyone situation. For good measure when we hire someone we typically pay them weekly or monthly, in spite of the clear instruction of Lev 19:13. Again, it's a matter of context.

I'm still not clear how the verse from Isaiah is relevant to the discussion here. I'm also not sure why my parents should have told me that tattoos are for cattle - that seems to be a matter of opinion rather than of fact.

Jemand
Mar 30th 2010, 05:35 PM
Hey guys. Honestly. Is all this debate over tattoos really worth it? Is it worth getting angry about, and others getting angry about what we say? I don't mean to belittle when someone has a legitimate question. But come on. Seriously! We get so worked up over tattoos?

And that's all I have to say about that.

Blessings to all of you.

These words were written some years ago by an anonymous writer,


Tattoos are symptomatic of an immature personality, low self-esteem, poor judgment, a propensity toward sin, moral depravity, a rebellious disposition, and a lack of intelligence. It is not just a coincidence that tattoo parlors are typically found in the parts of town frequented by those persons who are the most severely entangled in multiple, life-controlling sins. And it is not just a coincidence that that those persons who are intelligent enough and mentally, psychologically, socially, and spiritually well enough to work in a well-paid profession buy their art from reputable art dealers located in the finest parts of the finest cities in world.

As society becomes increasingly decadent, depraved, immoral, degenerate, vitiated, debauched, corrupt, dissolute, dissipated, rakish, promiscuous, libertine, rebellious, and self-indulgent we will see more and more people getting tattoos and body piercings.

“Birds of a feather flock together.” Meaning: “People are attracted to others who are like themselves.” The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Edited by E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett, and James Trefil. Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
It appears to me that the prediction found in the second paragraph was accurate.

Tattoos have always been very offensive to me and to many others, and when people get tattoos and show them off in full knowledge of the fact that they are offending others, it tells me that there is more than a little truth in the words found in the first sentence.

Slug1
Mar 30th 2010, 05:36 PM
These words were written some years ago by an anonymous writer,


Tattoos are symptomatic of an immature personality, low self-esteem, poor judgment, a propensity toward sin, moral depravity, a rebellious disposition, and a lack of intelligence. It is not just a coincidence that tattoo parlors are typically found in the parts of town frequented by those persons who are the most severely entangled in multiple, life-controlling sins. And it is not just a coincidence that that those persons who are intelligent enough and mentally, psychologically, socially, and spiritually well enough to work in a well-paid profession buy their art from reputable art dealers located in the finest parts of the finest cities in world.

As society becomes increasingly decadent, depraved, immoral, degenerate, vitiated, debauched, corrupt, dissolute, dissipated, rakish, promiscuous, libertine, rebellious, and self-indulgent we will see more and more people getting tattoos and body piercings.

“Birds of a feather flock together.” Meaning: “People are attracted to others who are like themselves.” The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Edited by E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett, and James Trefil. Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
It appears to me that the prediction found in the second paragraph was accurate.

Tattoos have always been very offensive to me and to many others, and when people get tattoos and show them off in full knowledge of the fact that they are offending others, it tells me that there is more than a little truth in the words found in the first sentence.Can you explain what a tattoo has done to offend you?

The Mighty Sword
Mar 30th 2010, 05:40 PM
I have a tattoo of tattoo.

http://content6.flixster.com/photo/31/29/30/3129300_tml.jpg

Jemand
Mar 30th 2010, 05:48 PM
Can you explain what a tattoo has done to offend you?

My personal opinion is that man is God’s most noble creation and that the appearance of the human body should be respected as a thing of beauty that should never be defaced unless necessary for medical reasons, or altered to hide blemishes caused by unsightly mutations, disease, or injury. God gave us our bodies, and He has also given us many things upon which to paint or carve images. I believe that God desires that we recognize the difference between the two.

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 05:48 PM
These words were written some years ago...

So were these...

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Reynolds357
Mar 30th 2010, 05:48 PM
These words were written some years ago by an anonymous writer,


Tattoos are symptomatic of an immature personality, low self-esteem, poor judgment, a propensity toward sin, moral depravity, a rebellious disposition, and a lack of intelligence. It is not just a coincidence that tattoo parlors are typically found in the parts of town frequented by those persons who are the most severely entangled in multiple, life-controlling sins. And it is not just a coincidence that that those persons who are intelligent enough and mentally, psychologically, socially, and spiritually well enough to work in a well-paid profession buy their art from reputable art dealers located in the finest parts of the finest cities in world.

As society becomes increasingly decadent, depraved, immoral, degenerate, vitiated, debauched, corrupt, dissolute, dissipated, rakish, promiscuous, libertine, rebellious, and self-indulgent we will see more and more people getting tattoos and body piercings.

“Birds of a feather flock together.” Meaning: “People are attracted to others who are like themselves.” The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Edited by E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett, and James Trefil. Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
It appears to me that the prediction found in the second paragraph was accurate.

Tattoos have always been very offensive to me and to many others, and when people get tattoos and show them off in full knowledge of the fact that they are offending others, it tells me that there is more than a little truth in the words found in the first sentence.
Most tattoos do not offend me. Certain content of certain tattoos do offend me, but tattoos in and of themselves do not.

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 05:50 PM
I think Slug was referring to biblical offense...

Slug1
Mar 30th 2010, 05:52 PM
My personal opinion is that man is God’s most noble creation and that the appearance of the human body should be respected as a thing of beauty that should never be defaced unless necessary for medical reasons, or altered to hide blemishes caused by unsightly mutations, disease, or injury. God gave us our bodies, and He has also given us many things upon which to paint or carve or images. I believe that God desires that we recognize the difference between the two.So what's "on" the flesh is more important then what comes "out" of the flesh as in the light that shines forth from a Christian? Seems all a tattoo would do to Christ's light shining from them is change it to a rainbow of colors but not lessen it. Opinion and attitude is what lessens Christ's light and that is both from a tattooed person themselves and from those who are not tattooed but have an opinion of those who are.

I respect your dislike of tattoos just as I might dislike your hairstyle or the cloths you wear and would expect you to respect my opinion of you based on your "outside" but none of these attitudes effect how God shines forth through us.

Reynolds357
Mar 30th 2010, 05:52 PM
My personal opinion is that man is God’s most noble creation and that the appearance of the human body should be respected as a thing of beauty that should never be defaced unless necessary for medical reasons, or altered to hide blemishes caused by unsightly mutations, disease, or injury. God gave us our bodies, and He has also given us many things upon which to paint or carve images. I believe that God desires that we recognize the difference between the two.


That is an acceptable belief to have. Since you have it, I hope that you do not have pierced ears. I hope that you do not wear make up. I hope that you do not style your hair in anyway. I hope that you are in perfect physical condition and do not have any excess body fat. I hope that you eat only the best, most healthy food. etc. etc. etc.

notuptome
Mar 30th 2010, 05:54 PM
So, is your opinion of tattoos... learned? If not, they why do you find it easier to explain the tree? Anything "learned" can be victim of pick and choose and you chose to stick to your learning and thus opinion of tattoos vs the Christmas tree... I mean, we don't want to make a bunch of children upset at Christmas time that there is no more tree... right? So, keep it up, it's easier.
If you have not learned what is proper and good behaviour you cannot exhibit the same. Having good manners and proper deportment is not unbecoming of the Christian. It is not cute to be crude, rude and unkempt.

The new man in Christ does not revel in his/her past sins. The heart that loves Christ does not fondly remember the past life of sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jemand
Mar 30th 2010, 05:56 PM
So were these...

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Are you suggesting that I am not pure because I believe that murder, rape, homosexuality, child molestation and defacing the human body are not pure but sinful?

Slug1
Mar 30th 2010, 05:56 PM
If you have not learned what is proper and good behaviour you cannot exhibit the same. Having good manners and proper deportment is not unbecoming of the Christian. It is not cute to be crude, rude and unkempt.

The new man in Christ does not revel in his/her past sins. The heart that loves Christ does not fondly remember the past life of sin.

For the cause of Christ
RogerAre you spinning again... you are, aren't you :P

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 05:56 PM
That is an acceptable belief to have. Since you have it, I hope that you do not have pierced ears. I hope that you do not wear make up. I hope that you do not style your hair in anyway. I hope that you are in perfect physical condition and do not have any excess body fat. I hope that you eat only the best, most healthy food. etc. etc. etc.

It is also a position that would require a hair lipped child like the one below to suffer needlessly when a simple operation could save them from years of anguish... :B

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/13900470_3PREOPERATION0.jpg/230px-13900470_3PREOPERATION0.jpg

Jemand
Mar 30th 2010, 06:04 PM
That is an acceptable belief to have. Since you have it, I hope that you do not have pierced ears. I hope that you do not wear make up. I hope that you do not style your hair in anyway. I hope that you are in perfect physical condition and do not have any excess body fat. I hope that you eat only the best, most healthy food. etc. etc. etc.

I do not believe that combing my hair constitutes defacing my body. I try very hard to take good care of the things that God has given to me, including my body, and I do not make a mockery of God and His creation of man by defacing my body with tattoos.

Slug1
Mar 30th 2010, 06:05 PM
I do not believe that combing my hair constitutes defacing my body. I try very hard to take good care of the things that God has given to me, including my body, and I do not make a mockery of God and His creation of man by defacing my body with tattoos.Where does God say that a tattoo defaces and makes a mockery of flesh?

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 06:07 PM
Where does God say that a tattoo defaces and makes a mockery of flesh?

He doesn't have to say it, he has obviously left it up to Jemand's opinion...

Jemand
Mar 30th 2010, 06:10 PM
It is also a position that would require a hair lipped child like the one below to suffer needlessly when a simple operation could save them from years of anguish... :B

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/13900470_3PREOPERATION0.jpg/230px-13900470_3PREOPERATION0.jpg

That is not true. I wrote,


My personal opinion is that man is God’s most noble creation and that the appearance of the human body should be respected as a thing of beauty that should never be defaced unless necessary for medical reasons, or altered to hide blemishes caused by unsightly mutations, disease, or injury. God gave us our bodies, and He has also given us many things upon which to paint or carve or images. I believe that God desires that we recognize the difference between the two.
The disfigurement of the child in the photo was caused by a mutation.

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 06:14 PM
That is not true. I wrote,


My personal opinion is that man is God’s most noble creation and that the appearance of the human body should be respected as a thing of beauty that should never be defaced unless necessary for medical reasons, or altered to hide blemishes caused by unsightly mutations, disease, or injury. God gave us our bodies, and He has also given us many things upon which to paint or carve or images. I believe that God desires that we recognize the difference between the two.
The disfigurement of the child in the photo was caused by a mutation.

My bad... I read it wrong.

BUT... didn't God create them a something that should be respected as a thing of beauty too?

notuptome
Mar 30th 2010, 06:16 PM
So were these...

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God but in works they deny Him being abominable and disobedient and unto every good work reprobate. vs 16 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged men be soberminded grave temperate sound in faith in love in patience; Ch 2 1-2

Perhaps the Cretans were the ones getting tattoos.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jemand
Mar 30th 2010, 06:18 PM
Where does God say that a tattoo defaces and makes a mockery of flesh?

He has not, and neither have I.

Slug1
Mar 30th 2010, 06:20 PM
He has not, and neither have I. Is the Lord's work internal or external? Does God work on the outside of us, or on the inside of us?

notuptome
Mar 30th 2010, 06:22 PM
Are you spinning again... you are, aren't you :P
I'm being a good watchman and sounding a warning.

Prov 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit so a fool returneth to his folly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 30th 2010, 06:24 PM
I'm being a good watchman and sounding a warning.

Prov 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit so a fool returneth to his folly.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWhat warning... don't come near you because you don't like tattoos?

notuptome
Mar 30th 2010, 06:26 PM
Is the Lord's work internal or external? Does God work on the outside of us, or on the inside of us?
I should think both. Dan 1:12-15 Daniel and his compatriots ate pulse and drank water and were healthier than those who ate the kings food.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jemand
Mar 30th 2010, 06:27 PM
Is the Lord's work internal or external? Does God work on the outside of us, or on the inside of us?

The Lord’s work is on the inside, and it shows on the outside. Most unfortunately, however, sinful desires of the flesh also show on the outside.

notuptome
Mar 30th 2010, 06:30 PM
What warning... don't come near you because you don't like tattoos?
Yeah like Peter said in 2 Pet 2:22 ..the sow that was washed turned again to her wallowing in the mire.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 30th 2010, 06:31 PM
I should think both. Dan 1:12-15 Daniel and his compatriots ate pulse and drank water and were healthier than those who ate the kings food.

For the cause of Christ
RogerOK... so what "look" on the outside of a Christian would mean "of God" or "not of God". Would a guest to your church, who speaks in all the authority of God and people are coming off the streets into your church to hear this person speak because the message is drawing many to God and many are accepting Christ... then because this speaker is hot, they take off their suit jacket and the arms are lined with tattoos... they are no longer a person of God because of your opinion and dislike of tattoos? All those people that God is drawing in are gonna see them and be turned away as you are?

tango
Mar 30th 2010, 06:35 PM
If you have not learned what is proper and good behaviour you cannot exhibit the same. Having good manners and proper deportment is not unbecoming of the Christian. It is not cute to be crude, rude and unkempt.

The new man in Christ does not revel in his/her past sins. The heart that loves Christ does not fondly remember the past life of sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Very true, very true indeed. But it doesn't say whether a tattoo falls into "proper and good behaviour" or "crude, rude and unkempt" or why.

Ryan R
Mar 30th 2010, 07:04 PM
I think this conversation has become unprofitable.

I think Roger has a point, in that most of the objections to what he is saying are invalid, since tattoos were forbidden in the Leviticus unlike many of the examples that have been used on this thread (e.g. the internet), and we know that the Law still teaches us about the character of God so even if we don't follow the Law, in the freedom from the Law we can still try to do what is edifying - so Roger has a case.

On the other hand, I agree that we are not subject to the Law, so if we don't follow the criteria of cutting our hair we can make a case for not getting tied up in other things that were forbidden, but now we have freedom from.

So, all in all this conversation seems to me to be edging into what we're warned against in Titus, "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless" (Titus 3:9).

Now, I like my tattoos. They don't mean anything to me, they are just decoration like a tie. I think they look fancy.

However, I had them done before a lot of what Christ has done in my life occured, and I wouldn't do it again if presented with the opportunity, because quite simply, to appreciate something that's already there is fine (what else can you do?), but it really does seem like vainity (can you tell I'm reading Ecclesiates?) to pursue at this point (in my opinion, as one who has tattoos).

So, I suggest that we try to appreciate what the other side's case, because I don't think that trying to find an answer can avoid legalism here.

This has to be the first time I haven't had a side to be on. Hmm. Maybe I'm getting soft.

Reynolds357
Mar 30th 2010, 07:11 PM
It is also a position that would require a hair lipped child like the one below to suffer needlessly when a simple operation could save them from years of anguish... :B

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/13900470_3PREOPERATION0.jpg/230px-13900470_3PREOPERATION0.jpg
Urban, He said in his post that I was responding to that medical intervention to correct disease or injury was OK.

PilgrimPastor
Mar 30th 2010, 07:14 PM
These words were written some years ago by an anonymous writer,


Tattoos are symptomatic of an immature personality, low self-esteem, poor judgment, a propensity toward sin, moral depravity, a rebellious disposition, and a lack of intelligence. It is not just a coincidence that tattoo parlors are typically found in the parts of town frequented by those persons who are the most severely entangled in multiple, life-controlling sins. And it is not just a coincidence that that those persons who are intelligent enough and mentally, psychologically, socially, and spiritually well enough to work in a well-paid profession buy their art from reputable art dealers located in the finest parts of the finest cities in world.

As society becomes increasingly decadent, depraved, immoral, degenerate, vitiated, debauched, corrupt, dissolute, dissipated, rakish, promiscuous, libertine, rebellious, and self-indulgent we will see more and more people getting tattoos and body piercings.

“Birds of a feather flock together.” Meaning: “People are attracted to others who are like themselves.” The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Edited by E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett, and James Trefil. Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
It appears to me that the prediction found in the second paragraph was accurate.

Tattoos have always been very offensive to me and to many others, and when people get tattoos and show them off in full knowledge of the fact that they are offending others, it tells me that there is more than a little truth in the words found in the first sentence.

Friend, I am greatly offended by narrow mindedness and those who rush to judge others. Are you or any others of such similar frame of mind concerned at all with the offense that you may give to me? I would humbly suggest that any who are out and out offended because someone else has a tattoo should greatly consider the motives of their offense. Having spent 10 years in the military service of this country and the last several years in service to God and His people, I have found a GREAT deal more important things to be offended by; poverty, broken families, etc.

Might I suggest that if our delicate sensibilities were so easily offended by the truly ugly things of the world which confront us that Christ's Church would look far more like He did while on this earth; loving the unlovely and waging war with the pain of this world; not judging it for its tattoos...

Jemand
Mar 30th 2010, 07:50 PM
Friend, I am greatly offended by narrow mindedness and those who rush to judge others. Are you or any others of such similar frame of mind concerned at all with the offense that you may give to me? I would humbly suggest that any who are out and out offended because someone else has a tattoo should greatly consider the motives of their offense. Having spent 10 years in the military service of this country and the last several years in service to God and His people, I have found a GREAT deal more important things to be offended by; poverty, broken families, etc.

Might I suggest that if our delicate sensibilities were so easily offended by the truly ugly things of the world which confront us that Christ's Church would look far more like He did while on this earth; loving the unlovely and waging war with the pain of this world; not judging it for its tattoos...

Should Christians refrain from teaching against sin in order to avoid offending sinners?

notuptome
Mar 30th 2010, 08:08 PM
Friend, I am greatly offended by narrow mindedness and those who rush to judge others. Are you or any others of such similar frame of mind concerned at all with the offense that you may give to me? I would humbly suggest that any who are out and out offended because someone else has a tattoo should greatly consider the motives of their offense. Having spent 10 years in the military service of this country and the last several years in service to God and His people, I have found a GREAT deal more important things to be offended by; poverty, broken families, etc.

Might I suggest that if our delicate sensibilities were so easily offended by the truly ugly things of the world which confront us that Christ's Church would look far more like He did while on this earth; loving the unlovely and waging war with the pain of this world; not judging it for its tattoos...
With all due respect those who are in poverty or come from broken homes have little or no control over their circumstances. The person who has gotten a tattoo has done so willingly or ignorantly. It is absolutely improper to blame another for the reproach if any that you encounter based on your personal choices. Those who are proud of their tattoos cannot claim ignorance.

I can forgive that which is already done. I cannot in good conscience stand idly by while some encourage or entice others to follow this behaviour.

This reminds me of the youth that turn their hats sideways, pull their pants down, yank their boxers up under their arm pits, pull the tongues of the shoes out so they hang out in front of their toes and then wonder why passer-bys snicker at them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Reynolds357
Mar 30th 2010, 09:05 PM
Should Christians refrain from teaching against sin in order to avoid offending sinners?

No. They should not. What they should do is be 100% sure what they are calling sin is sin before they teach against it.

Reynolds357
Mar 30th 2010, 09:06 PM
.

This reminds me of the youth that turn their hats sideways, pull their pants down, yank their boxers up under their arm pits, pull the tongues of the shoes out so they hang out in front of their toes and then wonder why passer-bys snicker at them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And they also wonder why they do not get hired for decent jobs.

(I know you are not supposed to start a sentence with "and.")

Reynolds357
Mar 30th 2010, 09:08 PM
Friend, I am greatly offended by narrow mindedness and those who rush to judge others. Are you or any others of such similar frame of mind concerned at all with the offense that you may give to me? I would humbly suggest that any who are out and out offended because someone else has a tattoo should greatly consider the motives of their offense. Having spent 10 years in the military service of this country and the last several years in service to God and His people, I have found a GREAT deal more important things to be offended by; poverty, broken families, etc.

Might I suggest that if our delicate sensibilities were so easily offended by the truly ugly things of the world which confront us that Christ's Church would look far more like He did while on this earth; loving the unlovely and waging war with the pain of this world; not judging it for its tattoos...

I like narrow mindedness myself. "Wide is the path and the gate which leadeth to destruction."

notuptome
Mar 30th 2010, 09:59 PM
And they also wonder why they do not get hired for decent jobs.

(I know you are not supposed to start a sentence with "and.")
And why would that be? Grammar police?

Any chance they might have would soon vanish when they open their mouth and endeavor to speak.

Jesus died for them just like He died for me. They need Christ just as much as me. Smile if you must but do tell them of Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

crossnote
Mar 30th 2010, 10:23 PM
I repeat...

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
(Col 2:16-23)

Reynolds357
Mar 30th 2010, 10:29 PM
And why would that be? Grammar police?

Any chance they might have would soon vanish when they open their mouth and endeavor to speak.

Jesus died for them just like He died for me. They need Christ just as much as me. Smile if you must but do tell them of Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I am not the grammar police. I wanted to start my sentence with "and" because it flows better. I did not want someone making a snide comment about starting a sentence with "and" so I qualified it.

Other than that, I have no clue what you are taling about.

Vhayes
Mar 30th 2010, 11:51 PM
I am not the grammar police. I wanted to start my sentence with "and" because it flows better. I did not want someone making a snide comment about starting a sentence with "and" so I qualified it.

Other than that, I have no clue what you are taling about.
One shound never start a sentence with a preposition or a cunjunction. But I want to make a point, so it is acceptable. (tee-hee - couldn't resist) Sorry, Reynolds - will you forgive me?

And I'm with you - I have no idea what was said after that either.
V

Firefighter
Mar 31st 2010, 01:15 AM
I believe that one has every right to be the Grammar Po-Po concerning their own posts...

Dravenhawk
Mar 31st 2010, 02:27 AM
God made me perfect just the way I am. Putting a tattoo on my body just cheapens His handiwork.

Dravenhawk

crossnote
Mar 31st 2010, 03:39 AM
God made me perfect just the way I am. Putting a tattoo on my body just cheapens His handiwork.

Dravenhawk

This probably so far is the best arg. against tatoos. I would just ask though, if my tattoo consisted of God's Word, would that be cheapening His handiwork?

Dravenhawk
Mar 31st 2010, 03:43 AM
This probably so far is the best arg. against tatoos. I would just ask though, if my tattoo consisted of God's Word, would that be cheapening His handiwork?

Me thinks that tatooing Gods word to ones heart is a better way of wearing it my friend.

Dravenhawk

Firefighter
Mar 31st 2010, 04:02 AM
Technically, God made you naked, but I doubt that you will leave that unchanged... :D

crossnote
Mar 31st 2010, 04:03 AM
Me thinks that tatooing Gods word to ones heart is a better way of wearing it my friend.

Dravenhawk
True, God has written His Word on my heart, but there's nothing wrong with proclaiming the sure Word of Scripture via print as well.

Vhayes
Mar 31st 2010, 04:04 AM
We cut our hair, too. And trim our toe nails. And wear eye glasses. And...

Bladers
Mar 31st 2010, 05:36 AM
God made me perfect just the way I am. Putting a tattoo on my body just cheapens His handiwork.


We cut our hair, too. And trim our toe nails. And wear eye glasses. And...
We also put on make-up, lotion, cream, tan, wear earrings, and have once in our lives cheated on a test by temporally tattooing the answers on our hands, arms, elbows, you name it!:lol:

PilgrimPastor
Mar 31st 2010, 02:34 PM
I like narrow mindedness myself. "Wide is the path and the gate which leadeth to destruction."

Funny :) thanks for the laugh...

You know, I frequent this board primarily looking for questions from new Christians. I wonder what happened to the "New In Christ" forum by the way... anyway, we look so silly to unbelievers when we quibble over such things. Hate sin, please, but keep sin defined to those areas that are defined as such in plainly biblical (completely biblical) terms in order to lead others to grace.

Arguments over tattoos? How strange that must appear to an unbeliever in this culture. :B

It is trimming the hedges when we should be striking at the root. :hmm:

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 31st 2010, 02:57 PM
Is the Lord's work internal or external? Does God work on the outside of us, or on the inside of us?

Slug,
We can justify this however we like. If I take all the pro-tattoo posters on this thread and use their quotations and justifications, I could do the following and still justify myself.

- have piercings all over my face
- tie a chian from one piercing to another
- sharpen my teeth to look like fangs
- implant screws in my skull so I can screw spikes in
- tattoo my face with designs
- tattoo my lips black
- shave off my eyebrows

I could do lots of things. And I could use the very same justifications used on this thread to justify what I do and ask, show me where God forbids hanging a chain from one face piercing to another?

How does this offend people?

Does God work on the inside or on the outside?

Why be so legalistic?

Am I not loving God or people with what I do? I don't see how.

How could you make such blanket statements?

Etc. etc.

I hope you get my gist.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 03:02 PM
Slug,
We can justify this however we like. If I take all the pro-tattoo posters on this thread and use their quotations and justifications, I could do the following and still justify myself.

- have piercings all over my face
- tie a chian from one piercing to another
- sharpen my teeth to look like fangs
- implant screws in my skull so I can screw spikes in
- tattoo my face with designs
- tattoo my lips black
- shave off my eyebrows

I could do lots of things. And I could use the very same justifications used on this thread to justify what I do and ask, show me where God forbids hanging a chain from one face piercing to another?

How does this offend people?

Does God work on the inside or on the outside?

Why be so legalistic?

Am I not loving God or people with what I do? I don't see how.

How could you make such blanket statements?

Etc. etc.

I hope you get my gist.So is the Lord's work... internal or external? ;)

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 31st 2010, 03:03 PM
Technically, God made you naked, but I doubt that you will leave that unchanged... :D

Gen 3:21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

Firefighter
Mar 31st 2010, 03:05 PM
Gen 3:21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

Because of their shame because of their sin. WE have been reconciled...

Reynolds357
Mar 31st 2010, 03:05 PM
Funny :) thanks for the laugh...

You know, I frequent this board primarily looking for questions from new Christians. I wonder what happened to the "New In Christ" forum by the way... anyway, we look so silly to unbelievers when we quibble over such things. Hate sin, please, but keep sin defined to those areas that are defined as such in plainly biblical (completely biblical) terms in order to lead others to grace.

Arguments over tattoos? How strange that must appear to an unbeliever in this culture. :B

It is trimming the hedges when we should be striking at the root. :hmm:
You are suggesting I have a problem that needs to be dealt with in my life?
I am not really getting where you are going.

You are definitely not talking to a legalist. I will give things every benefit of the doubt as to whether or not they are sin. Simply read every post I have written in this thread and that is evident. When I determine something is sin, I take a hardline stance against it. Notice in my earlier posts, I said that scripture does not give us enough information to determine concretely one way or the other if tattoos are or are not sin.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 03:13 PM
When I determine something is sin, I take a hardline stance against it. Notice in my earlier posts, I said that scripture does not give us enough information to determine concretely one way or the other if tattoos are or are not sin.Good point!

I think this is the problem with many who are Christians and they have not taken that step to determine "God's" determination of what is sinful.

For me, a tattoo that is pornographic is sinful based on what God does say about Sexual Immorality that we read in scripture.

Tattoo's and getting tattoo's is not... unless you lived before Christ died and you were born a Jew. Then, that scripture in Lev applied to you. It does not apply to me, nor any Jews these days anymore.

Firefighter
Mar 31st 2010, 03:13 PM
Gen 3:21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.


God marked Cain for his protection. Did God sin???

Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.



God also instructed ear piercings of bondservants...

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

And we all know Paul considered himself to be one...

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ

See we can do all sorts of fun things with scripture...

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 31st 2010, 03:13 PM
So is the Lord's work... internal or external? ;)

Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Mat 5:15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

What do you think? Does true work internally manifest on the outside, or not?

Don't get me wrong. I judge no one, I used drugs and led a wild life before coming to know Christ myself. I just don't think it's wise to encourage others to go tattoo themselves when the Lord has expressly forbidden it. If unsure, its better to err on the side of caution then cause someone else to sin.

We need to also have a correct understanding of how the OT is applicable to us as Christians today. The OT is not to be junked just because we're no longer under the old covenant. The OT is just no longer the way for us to have a right standing with God. Now we have a right standing with God through Christ, not by obeying the Law. But we should remember that the OT is also God's word. And what did Paul say about ALL Scripture?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

As someone once said, "All means all, and all is all that All means."

By reading the Old Testament and understanding the spirit in which the Law was given, it helps us to understand the mind of God and the desires of God. I think the least that we could do at this point is to pray and ask God to teach us by his Holy Spirit as to whether this is indeed within his will or not.

Peace.

ThyWordIsTruth
Mar 31st 2010, 03:19 PM
See we can do all sorts of fun things with scripture...

I'm really dismayed that as a preacher you resort to such dishonest use of Scripture. Read your original posting. You justified tattoos by saying its ok because you were born naked, and you wear clothes don't you? I refuted that by showing you where God himself clothed Adam and Eve after they ate the forbidden fruit which goes against what you said.

The Lord set a mark upon Cain, we have no idea what this mark is, unless you know.

I'm sure you know what kind of slave Exo 21:6 was talking about. The mark was made so that others will not mistake the owner of illegally holding the slave for longer than the allowable period, that he was a slave by his own violition.

Look, you can justify it all you want, I don't want to argue with you nor will I hope to convince you. I just hope others don't follow in your footsteps. It troubles me that you teach others to do what you do.

Firefighter
Mar 31st 2010, 03:36 PM
I guess your sarcasm-o-meter is not working today...

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 03:37 PM
By reading the Old Testament and understanding the spirit in which the Law was given, it helps us to understand the mind of God and the desires of God. I think the least that we could do at this point is to pray and ask God to teach us by his Holy Spirit as to whether this is indeed within his will or not.

Peace.See, that's just the thing... this metality can be used when a Christian is offended when I walk into Red Lobster and buy the "Unlimited Shrimp" dinner. They will say all you just posted here and tell me they are offended I eat shellfish.

I did pray, God led me to get a tattoo and now a second since the area I live is populated with many military. He even inspired the art from another who didn't even know I was praying. Since then, I have been used by God to approach people who are tattooed and have been looked down upon by Christians with attitudes expressed in this thread. Christians can be God's worse enemy when they allow their opinion and attitude do the shining in the name of their opinion and attitude.

I understand God's will in my life clearly and I have witnessed the fruit He produces through me as well and for a person who's been hurt by Christians who say tattoos are sin and of the devil, well... they just need to have a servant of God who has some tattoos walk up to them and bring God's "TRUTH" to them and no opinion or offense due to a tattoo.

thedee
Mar 31st 2010, 03:45 PM
As a Christian I personally would not:
"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD." - Lev 19:28

On the flip side of it, there are a lot of true believers who had gotten tattoos prior to being saved so I hold nothing against them.

PilgrimPastor
Mar 31st 2010, 03:53 PM
I'm not speaking to you specifically. I'm speaking even to myself in this post. I'm commenting generally; don't take offense.

thedee
Mar 31st 2010, 03:54 PM
As a Christian I personally would not:
"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD." - Lev 19:28

On the flip side of it, there are a lot of true believers who had gotten tattoos prior to being saved so I hold nothing against them.

Also, there really isn't anything in the New Testament that I can think of that specifically restricts tattoos. We true believers are NOT under the law. For those who get them after being saved, a question they should ponder prior to getting one is if it is to bring attention and glory to themselves or it is to give God the glory. I cannot be the judge of that.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 04:05 PM
Also, there really isn't anything in the New Testament that I can think of that specifically restricts tattoos. We true believers are NOT under the law. For those who get them after being saved, a question they should ponder prior to getting one is if it is to bring attention and glory to themselves or it is to give God the glory. I cannot be the judge of that.AMEN... why do some pick a single verse from a Law for a time and for a people in the past and use this "single" verse to define themselves?

Before Christ, God had the Law for the Jews to identify themselves and justify themselves with God. That is why it's called the Old Covenant.

We are in the New Covenant.

Once we identify ourselves in Christ, allow Him to "define" Himself in us... instead. I don't understand why anyone would want to reduce the work Jesus does in them buy limiting themselves to the Law. Understanding the Law, understanding the purpose of the Law is great but to pick one verse from the Law and define themselves with it... I'll just let Jesus do the defining.

Diggindeeper
Mar 31st 2010, 04:10 PM
This reminds me of the youth that turn their hats sideways, pull their pants down, yank their boxers up under their arm pits, pull the tongues of the shoes out so they hang out in front of their toes and then wonder why passer-bys snicker at them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


And they also wonder why they do not get hired for decent jobs.

(I know you are not supposed to start a sentence with "and.")

I personally do not prefer tattoos, but people do have them. Some also wear their pants down around their ankles, have piercings all over the place, and other ridiculous things.

I don't take time to look and try to figure out if its a 'godly' tattoo or a 'gangster' tattoo or a 'heathen' tattoo. To me, anyone who overdoes the tattoos, all over his or her body, is just craving attention for themselves. These people on Utube are good examples. They are ridiculous!

You tube - Crazy tattooed people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouTBwVRYvLc

I have a friend who has a son who's been in and out of prison and he is tattooed from head to toe! (At least where I have seen!) He looks like Halloween all year long. To me, this could be just one reason for people's dislike of tattoos, and for their seeing it as very wrong.

I do know that the company I work for hires people with tattoos, but they ALL must be COVERED while they are at work. They also are not permitted to wear jeans and hoodies. Can wear Khacki pants and well, just have to appear kind of 'professional' looking. They can even can dress like a 'professional golfer' if that is preferable to them. Ladies cannot wear skirts or shorts shorter than a couple of inches above the knee and no strapless or spaghetti strap tops. In other words, they don't want the employees to look like gangsters or hookers. :rolleyes:

It looks kind of funny to see people with taped up necks, arms, ankles or they are wearing ace bandages around their ankles or wrists. All the tape and ace bandages kinda make it look like several have been attacked and mugged and are all taped and bandaged up! :rofl:

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 06:22 PM
AMEN... why do some pick a single verse from a Law for a time and for a people in the past and use this "single" verse to define themselves?

Before Christ, God had the Law for the Jews to identify themselves and justify themselves with God. That is why it's called the Old Covenant.

We are in the New Covenant.

Once we identify ourselves in Christ, allow Him to "define" Himself in us... instead. I don't understand why anyone would want to reduce the work Jesus does in them buy limiting themselves to the Law. Understanding the Law, understanding the purpose of the Law is great but to pick one verse from the Law and define themselves with it... I'll just let Jesus do the defining.
Liberty is not license. Because we can does not mean we should.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 06:25 PM
Liberty is not license. Because we can does not mean we should.

For the cause of Christ
RogerAMEN Roger... yet you're on the internet which other Christians feel is sinful because it offends them due to what the internet can be used for. You're not offended by the internet and you really don't care (or understand) that other Christians think the internet is sinful or may feel offended that "you" as a Christian use the internet... so you are at liberty to surf all you want... right?

You're about to spin this... aren't you ;)

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 06:32 PM
AMEN Roger... yet you're on the internet which other Christians feel is sinful because it offends them due to what the internet can be used for.

You're about to spin this... aren't you ;)
Well this is a target rich environment. Sinners and hersey in abundance.

Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 06:36 PM
Well this is a target rich environment. Sinners and hersey in abundance.

Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

For the cause of Christ
RogerYou just began to spin... I knew it LOL!!

Let's be straight forward with ourselves and then we can be a light for Christ to use. You are not offended by and you clearly tolerate the internet despite all the evil that takes place on the internet.

So, a tattoo that is not sinful... you will speak out against while you will not speak out agaisnt the internet because then you might actually have to be honest with yourself and stop surfing, posting, etc?

thedee
Mar 31st 2010, 06:38 PM
AMEN Roger... yet you're on the internet which other Christians feel is sinful because it offends them due to what the internet can be used for. You're not offended by the internet and you really don't care that other Christians think the internet is sinful or may feel offended that "you" as a Christian, do use the internet... so you are at liberty to surf all you want... right?

You're about to spin this... aren't you ;)

Slug, I am going to be more blunt this time. Tattoos have a pagan connection. Look at the history of it. You cannot compare tattoos with using the internet. Also, no matter what your intensions are on getting a tattoo, tattoos by their very nature will draw attention to ones self.

Reynolds357
Mar 31st 2010, 06:40 PM
Well this is a target rich environment. Sinners and hersey in abundance.

Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I know that probably 95% of what we deal with on these boards, especially in Contro, is pointless. I am amazed that this has not landed in contro. We waste a lot of time talking about a lot of things that in the grand scheme are not worth 2 cents. In my opinion, this is a prime example of an issue that is 100% pointless to debate because there IS NO CONCRETE ANSWER to the question.
You are getting way too worked over something that is not that important.
You are not going to get a tattoo; Urban and Slug are not going and having theirs removed. You are convinced tattoos are sin. They are convinced they are not sin. I think where scripture is silent I will likewise remain silent. I have some personal reasons that tattoos would be wrong for me, but that does not make them wrong for everyone. For all practicalities point, the discussion is going nowhere. No one is changing anyone else's mind. You are just getting worked up over something that is not worth getting worked up over.

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 06:45 PM
You just began to spin... I knew it LOL!!

Let's be straight forward with ourselves and then we can be a light for Christ to use. You are not offended by and you clearly tolerate the internet despite all the evil that takes place on the internet.

So, a tattoo that is not sinful... you will speak out against while you will not speak out agaisnt the internet because then you might actually have to be honest with yourself and stop surfing, posting, etc?
I just load up the gospel and let'er rip. Those that get his do the spin'in. Like they say you run but you can't hide. You run you only die tired. The gospel never misses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 06:46 PM
Slug, I am going to be more blunt this time. Tattoos have a pagan connection. Look at the history of it. You cannot compare tattoos with using the internet. Also, no matter what your intensions are on getting a tattoo, tattoos by their very nature will draw attention to ones self.A majority of all holidays do also.... how many do you not participate in or decorate the house for?

Even many religions go back to pagan origins yet many practice their religion...

I am not a Jew, born before Christ and have to follow any Law to justify myself before God. I have Jesus Christ now and He knows what is in my heart and can care less about what my skin looks like even when I change the color of my skin.

These tattoos have done the work that God intends and allows Him to use me to speak with people hurt by Christians due to the tattoos that they have. The only other attention I have drawn to myself is persecution from other Christians. You do the math.

Reynolds357
Mar 31st 2010, 06:47 PM
I just load up the gospel and let'er rip. Those that get his do the spin'in. Like they say you run but you can't hide. You run you only die tired. The gospel never misses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger "Tattoos are sin" is not in the Gospel.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 06:49 PM
I just load up the gospel and let'er rip. Those that get his do the spin'in. Like they say you run but you can't hide. You run you only die tired. The gospel never misses.

For the cause of Christ
RogerCool... tattooed gospel speakers are what then? You gonna hide your internet use with the "Word"?

Answer the question Roger... would the fact that another Christian feels that the internet is sin and is offended by "your" use of it... this will cause you to stop using the internet, or would you justify your use?

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 07:16 PM
Cool... tattooed gospel speakers are what then? You gonna hide your internet use with the "Word"?

Answer the question Roger... would the fact that another Christian feels that the internet is sin and is offended by "your" use of it... this will cause you to stop using the internet, or would you justify your use?
Since the computer and the internet are both business tools it may not be directly applicable to the tattoo matter. I would not expect a carpenter to shun his hammer because hammers have been used to murder people.

The real question here is whether you make this specious argument with malicious intent. I choose not to think ill of you in this matter.

Those who have tattoos are stuck with them. Like drinking and smoking if you haven't started you will likely be better off never starting. I cannot help but to think that some of the things we do hinder our future usefulness to God.

In any case only God can judge.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 07:27 PM
Since the computer and the internet are both business tools it may not be directly applicable to the tattoo matter. I would not expect a carpenter to shun his hammer because hammers have been used to murder people.

The real question here is whether you make this specious argument with malicious intent. I choose not to think ill of you in this matter.

Those who have tattoos are stuck with them. Like drinking and smoking if you haven't started you will likely be better off never starting. I cannot help but to think that some of the things we do hinder our future usefulness to God.

In any case only God can judge.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWell Roger, I mean no ill intent and you know my testimony concerning the leading to and God's use of the tattoos I have. He doesn't use you that way and if you can't understand His use of me this way, then I have no problem except I have to listen to your's and other Christians "opinion" of tattoos in the mean time.

You want to see the true colors of your fellow Christians... get a tattoo and you'll see some of the TRUE colors of fellow "Christians"... it's sad how love is turned to persecution because an opinion they have and an offense they feel is more important.

Funny how you raise an example with a hammer... how many tattoos are used to murder? Offend, sure... no doubt, I have seen many that offend me. Apples and oranges just as internet and tattoos in the same basket.

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 07:35 PM
"Tattoos are sin" is not in the Gospel.
You're right I did not mean to imply that it was. Believers are to be sanctified but I do not really want to extend this thread by going into that with respect to tattoos.

You said in an earlier post that 95% of what is discussed on the forums is pretty much meaningless. It would be hard to find fault with that assesment. Is it because many of the posters are immature Christians or simply in need of biblical discipleship? Probably best not to answer that. I'll just ponder on it for a while.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 07:45 PM
Well Roger, I mean no ill intent and you know my testimony concerning the leading to and God's use of the tattoos I have. He doesn't use you that way and if you can't understand His use of me this way, then I have no problem except I have to listen to your's and other Christians "opinion" of tattoos in the mean time.

You want to see the true colors of your fellow Christians... get a tattoo and you'll see some of the TRUE colors of fellow "Christians"... it's sad how love is turned to persecution because an opinion they have and an offense they feel is more important.

Funny how you raise an example with a hammer... how many tattoos are used to murder? Offend, sure... no doubt, I have seen many that offend me. Apples and oranges just as internet and tattoos in the same basket.
For the most part I ignore your tattoo. It's yours and you are happy with it. Just consider this if you do not want opinions on your tattoo then don't flaunt it in front of everyone you meet. You only invite criticism and not all of it will be complementary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 07:47 PM
For the most part I ignore your tattoo. It's yours and you are happy with it. Just consider this if you do not want opinions on your tattoo then don't flaunt it in front of everyone you meet. You only invite criticism and not all of it will be complementary.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWhich was the point of the post. It has to be viewed for the Lord to do what He does with it to help those hurt by Christians due to their tattoos that offend such Christians. Criticism only comes from those who claim Christ's love.

Firefighter
Mar 31st 2010, 07:50 PM
I cannot help but to think that some of the things we do hinder our future usefulness to God.

You mean like murdering people like Moses and Paul???

thedee
Mar 31st 2010, 08:00 PM
A majority of all holidays do also.... how many do you not participate in or decorate the house for?

Even many religions go back to pagan origins yet many practice their religion...

I am not a Jew, born before Christ and have to follow any Law to justify myself before God. I have Jesus Christ now and He knows what is in my heart and can care less about what my skin looks like even when I change the color of my skin.

These tattoos have done the work that God intends and allows Him to use me to speak with people hurt by Christians due to the tattoos that they have. The only other attention I have drawn to myself is persecution from other Christians. You do the math.

2 wrongs don't make a right. Maybe I will go buy a budda and paint "Jesus Loves You" on it. Because if I do that I will be giving the glory to God right? Anyways, if you feel you need tattoos than go for it.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 08:11 PM
2 wrongs don't make a right. Maybe I will go buy a budda and paint "Jesus Loves You" on it. Because if I do that I will be giving the glory to God right? Anyways, if you feel you need tattoos than go for it.I don't think you're getting the point... if you feel that you need to celebrate all the holidays then go for it.

You're using a line of talk that can be applied to stuff you accept but other Christians don't accept. Do you know how many Christians don't put up a Christmas tree or don't even celebrate Christmas at all? Do you know how many Christians won't use the internet because 10 out of 11 sites are sinful in nature? Or how many will not watch TV due to the violence? Or how many don't eat meat.

Do you do any of these?

If so... you're words hold what type of weight?

thedee
Mar 31st 2010, 08:24 PM
I don't think you're getting the point... if you feel that you need to celebrate all the holidays then go for it.

You're using a line of talk that can be applied to stuff you accept but other Christians don't accept. Do you know how many Christians don't put up a Christmas tree or don't even celebrate Christmas at all? Do you know how many Christians won't use the internet because 10 out of 11 sites are sinful in nature? Or how many will not watch TV due to the violence?

Do you do any of these?

If so... you're words hold what type of weight?

I don't make as big of an issue of this as most because you can probably apply Romans 14:1 to this... "but not to disputes over doubtful things". I think what is best for you and everyone else who reads this post is to pray about it and have the Lord reveal it to you on what is right and what is wrong.

Another thing to think about is a "weak" brother. In Romans 14:21 it says "nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak". For example, me personally I like to have a beer here and there. Well, there are a number of brethern I know who don't drink beer at all and thinks it is wrong. In this case I do not have a beer around them because I don't want to offend them.

Here is a link that may be helpful for some on this particular topic... http://www.thebereancall.org/node/7956

Slug1
Mar 31st 2010, 08:28 PM
I don't make as big of an issue of this as most because you can probably apply Romans 14:1 to this... "but not to disputes over doubtful things". I think what is best for you and everyone else who reads this post is to pray about it and have the Lord reveal it to you on what is right and what is wrong.

Another thing to think about is a "weak" brother. In Romans 14:21 it says "nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak". For example, me personally I like to have a beer here and there. Well, there are a number of brethern I know who don't drink beer at all and thinks it is wrong. In this case I do not have a beer around them because I don't want to offend them.

Here is a link that may be helpful for some on this particular topic... http://www.thebereancall.org/node/7956If the reason they don't like beer is because they are recovering from abuse or don't want to fall into abuse... me to. But if they are offended because they feels it's a sin for you... you gonna not enjoy a beer that is not sinful at all?

Believe me, I'll buy a 6-pack of Smithwicks and come on over and we can enjoy a few while we discuss this... just as Jesus drank wine with His desciples.

notuptome
Mar 31st 2010, 08:29 PM
You mean like murdering people like Moses and Paul???
Were these things before they were called of God?

I suggest that it is not a good plan to emulate this behaviour in your life. Unless you seek a long term prison ministry without hope of parole.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

thedee
Mar 31st 2010, 08:33 PM
If the reason they don't like beer is because they are recovering from abuse or don't want to fall into abuse... me to. But if they are offended because they feels it's a sin for you... you gonna not enjoy a beer that is not sinful at all?

Believe me, I'll buy a 6-pack of Smithwicks and come on over and we can enjoy a few while we discuss this... just as Jesus drank wine with His desciples.

Remember, in context it is talking about a "weak" brother. So even if it is not wrong I try not to stumble them.
If I know that it will stumble a Brother(in Christ) then I will not drink a beer when I am with them. Anyways... don't want to get off topic.

Jemand
Mar 31st 2010, 08:57 PM
No. They should not. What they should do is be 100% sure what they are calling sin is sin before they teach against it.

People who enjoy their sin so much that they are unwilling to repent from it are usually very good at making excuses to justify their sin. For example, homosexuals who name Christ as their savior but who are unwilling to repent of their sin argue that Jesus never taught against homosexuality and that He taught us to love one another. They further argue that our human sexuality is a gift from God and that to abstain from enjoying that gift is to sin against God. They interpret Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Cor. 6:9 to be speaking of idolatry and perverted, lustful homosexual relationships rather that “acts of love” between two men or two women. Men who fondle little girls in their private areas have it even easier—Jesus never taught against it and Paul wrote nothing at all about it. Nowhere is the Bible does it say that it is a sin for a man to fondle little girls in their private areas. However, the Bible does speak of men who fondle little girls in their private areas and of men and women who deface their bodies with tattoos,

Rom. 1:18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19. because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (NASB, 1995)

God has made it evident that fondling little girls in their private areas is a sin, and He has made it evident that it is a sin for men and women to deface their bodies with tattoos.

Human decency requires that men and women who have tattoos cover them up when in public so that they do not cause others to be offended, but the very motive for getting the tattoos is typically to show them off in public, with no thought or concern for those people who are offended. Indeed, are their hearts not so severely darkened that they accuse the people whom they are offending of being in the wrong?

Diggindeeper
Mar 31st 2010, 09:14 PM
The money could be much better spent. Its not cheap to get the things engraved into one's skin.

One of my grandsons, his friends had been 'urging' him to 'get a tattoo' and he was 'chicken' if he didn't. After all, everybody is doing it, they said. He finally sneaked and paid the dough and got a small one on his upper back. Three weeks later, his car had problems and he had to have transportation to college classes and to work. His dad and mom didn't have the money right then and told him to call us, to see if we'd let him 'borrow' the couple of hundred dollars for repairs to his car. He had showed me the tattoo.

So, when he called I asked him, "How much did the tattoo cost?" He told me. I said, "That would have fixed your car." Long story made short, I did not give him the money. (Wouldn't you just love for me to be your Mamaw? LOL)

But we did loan him Bill's truck, which he had to drive till payday, and then, with that much coming out at one time...he and his girlfriend sat home and watched TV for a week or two. He didn't have the money to go anywhere.

I did not have to preach to him, but he learned a valuable lesson. He's told me since then, "I wish I hadn't paid out for the tattoo."

I said, "In spite of the fact that EVERYBODY is doing it?"

And he said, "Most of them, their parents hand out money to them."

He's 20 years old.

Jemand
Mar 31st 2010, 09:44 PM
See, that's just the thing... this metality can be used when a Christian is offended when I walk into Red Lobster and buy the "Unlimited Shrimp" dinner. They will say all you just posted here and tell me they are offended I eat shellfish.

I did pray, God led me to get a tattoo and now a second since the area I live is populated with many military. He even inspired the art from another who didn't even know I was praying. Since then, I have been used by God to approach people who are tattooed and have been looked down upon by Christians with attitudes expressed in this thread. Christians can be God's worse enemy when they allow their opinion and attitude do the shining in the name of their opinion and attitude.

I understand God's will in my life clearly and I have witnessed the fruit He produces through me as well and for a person who's been hurt by Christians who say tattoos are sin and of the devil, well... they just need to have a servant of God who has some tattoos walk up to them and bring God's "TRUTH" to them and no opinion or offense due to a tattoo.

“Why did you set the house on fire with the woman and her five children inside?”
“God led me to do it.”
“Did it not bother you at all when you heard the woman and her five children screaming as they were being burned alive?”
“No, not at all. And besides that, the next-door neighbor accepted Christ as a consequence. Therefore, I know it was the leading of the Lord.”

God has never told anyone to sin against Him and his neighbor by getting a tattoo, and God has never needed for anyone to sin in order to be an effective witness of the truth of the gospel. I am personally acquainted with a very well known ministry made up of bikers with tattoos. They make the false claim that they are leading people to Christ who would otherwise never come to Him, but the reality is that they are persuading gullible people to believe that they can be Christians and continue to live in their sinful lifestyles.

During the years that I served as the senior pastor of an inner city church, I met multitudes of people that most of the other churches in the community wanted nothing to do with, and I heard from them horror stories about how other pastors and Christians had treated them. I also heard, over the years, three of these people tell me about a man of God whom they had met—a man who encountered them in the darkest and most sinful time in lives and who manifested to them through his love and compassion the person of Christ. They had no idea, however, that this man was the senior pastor of the largest church in the city with eleven associate and assistant pastors working with him. This man did not have any tattoos, and he did not need to have any because he had a personal relationship with God that was so pure and so spotless that Christ brightly shined through his daily life. I had the pleasure of spending 90 minutes with this man, just the two of us, and it was perhaps the most sacred 90 minutes that I have ever experienced.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 1st 2010, 02:15 AM
Your story reminds me of David Wilkerson. Although I don't agree with him theologically, but I have to respect him for the work he has done in the Lord.

David Wilkerson has led more hardcore street gangsters and people on the fringe to the Lord then anyone I know who has tattoos. And David Wilkerson looks nothing like them. He wears a suit, has normal hair, no tattoos, wears glasses, looks very decent....he doesn't behave like them, talk like them or walk like them.

From the mouth of the people whom he led to the Lord, the one thing that they saw in this man was love. He loved them despite all that they were.

And this is the principle that the Lord laid down for his disciples.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Why would we then be "of the world" when the Lord specifically told us we are "not of the world?" Nowhere did Jesus teach us to be like sinners or even look like sinners to reach the sinners. The Lord never became a tax collector to reach tax collectors. He never did what they did, he just loved them. And they came flocking to him en masse.

Similarly all we need to do is to love people. David Wilkerson is the best proof of this.

Dravenhawk
Apr 1st 2010, 02:22 AM
The money could be much better spent. Its not cheap to get the things engraved into one's skin.

One of my grandsons, his friends had been 'urging' him to 'get a tattoo' and he was 'chicken' if he didn't. After all, everybody is doing it, they said. He finally sneaked and paid the dough and got a small one on his upper back. Three weeks later, his car had problems and he had to have transportation to college classes and to work. His dad and mom didn't have the money right then and told him to call us, to see if we'd let him 'borrow' the couple of hundred dollars for repairs to his car. He had showed me the tattoo.

So, when he called I asked him, "How much did the tattoo cost?" He told me. I said, "That would have fixed your car." Long story made short, I did not give him the money. (Wouldn't you just love for me to be your Mamaw? LOL)

But we did loan him Bill's truck, which he had to drive till payday, and then, with that much coming out at one time...he and his girlfriend sat home and watched TV for a week or two. He didn't have the money to go anywhere.

I did not have to preach to him, but he learned a valuable lesson. He's told me since then, "I wish I hadn't paid out for the tattoo."

I said, "In spite of the fact that EVERYBODY is doing it?"

And he said, "Most of them, their parents hand out money to them."

He's 20 years old.

Cheers to you for being a good example :pp:pp Sombody rep this good woman.

Dravenhawk

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 03:01 AM
Your story reminds me of David Wilkerson. Although I don't agree with him theologically, but I have to respect him for the work he has done in the Lord.

David Wilkerson has led more hardcore street gangsters and people on the fringe to the Lord then anyone I know who has tattoos. And David Wilkerson looks nothing like them. He wears a suit, has normal hair, no tattoos, wears glasses, looks very decent....he doesn't behave like them, talk like them or walk like them.

From the mouth of the people whom he led to the Lord, the one thing that they saw in this man was love. He loved them despite all that they were.

And this is the principle that the Lord laid down for his disciples.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Why would we then be "of the world" when the Lord specifically told us we are "not of the world?" Nowhere did Jesus teach us to be like sinners or even look like sinners to reach the sinners. The Lord never became a tax collector to reach tax collectors. He never did what they did, he just loved them. And they came flocking to him en masse.

Similarly all we need to do is to love people. David Wilkerson is the best proof of this.I'm not David Wilkerson so I'm not used the same way as DW. Next we'd have to wear his same style of clothes (which I probably can't afford) and eat the same food he does for the Lord to use me the same as He does DW. Is that what you're saying?

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 03:03 AM
“Why did you set the house on fire with the woman and her five children inside?”
“God led me to do it.”
“Did it not bother you at all when you heard the woman and her five children screaming as they were being burned alive?”
“No, not at all. And besides that, the next-door neighbor accepted Christ as a consequence. Therefore, I know it was the leading of the Lord.”

God has never told anyone to sin against Him and his neighbor by getting a tattoo, and God has never needed for anyone to sin in order to be an effective witness of the truth of the gospel. I am personally acquainted with a very well known ministry made up of bikers with tattoos. They make the false claim that they are leading people to Christ who would otherwise never come to Him, but the reality is that they are persuading gullible people to believe that they can be Christians and continue to live in their sinful lifestyles.

During the years that I served as the senior pastor of an inner city church, I met multitudes of people that most of the other churches in the community wanted nothing to do with, and I heard from them horror stories about how other pastors and Christians had treated them. I also heard, over the years, three of these people tell me about a man of God whom they had met—a man who encountered them in the darkest and most sinful time in lives and who manifested to them through his love and compassion the person of Christ. They had no idea, however, that this man was the senior pastor of the largest church in the city with eleven associate and assistant pastors working with him. This man did not have any tattoos, and he did not need to have any because he had a personal relationship with God that was so pure and so spotless that Christ brightly shined through his daily life. I had the pleasure of spending 90 minutes with this man, just the two of us, and it was perhaps the most sacred 90 minutes that I have ever experienced.You actually believe a tattoo is sinful?

Murder is... so your analogy isn't gonna work.

Besides... if you read my posts... I don't speak with "gullible" people, I speak with ones that Christians have hurt, because of their tattoos which they said was sinful and made these people feel that God will not accept them.

I'd be careful with that false claims statement also... if they lead one to Christ, you are cursing their efforts for God.

Did this holy man instruct you in how to thwart God's efforts in using each and every servant of His, no matter what they look like?

90 whole minutes and you consider this perhaps your more sacred moments? He's just a man who has his problems between him and God... like me, and like you.

Experience the Holy Spirit come upon you for a second and you'll see how your 90 minutes can't even compare.

I guess any servant of God who does not meet your standard really aren't doing God's work... huh? What they say/do as God leads them is false in your eyes because they don't meet the Jemand standard of holiness (pure and spotless)?

A heart that God has worked in... since it's under skin that is tattooed, they won't provide you with a "blessed" moment as God shines through them but the bright light is now multicolored due to the tattoos?

Besides... spotless and pure? Come on... BLAMELESS before God, sure and how would we even know that? Pure and spotless? Only a man who looks with natural eyes would say such a thing. Let's not put man up on a pedestal and call a moment with them... sacred. Any man of God hearing you call a meeting with them, sacred... they'd correct you because a man of God is humble.

A sacred moment is reserved for Jesus.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 03:37 AM
The money could be much better spent. Its not cheap to get the things engraved into one's skin.

One of my grandsons, his friends had been 'urging' him to 'get a tattoo' and he was 'chicken' if he didn't. After all, everybody is doing it, they said. He finally sneaked and paid the dough and got a small one on his upper back. Three weeks later, his car had problems and he had to have transportation to college classes and to work. His dad and mom didn't have the money right then and told him to call us, to see if we'd let him 'borrow' the couple of hundred dollars for repairs to his car. He had showed me the tattoo.

So, when he called I asked him, "How much did the tattoo cost?" He told me. I said, "That would have fixed your car." Long story made short, I did not give him the money. (Wouldn't you just love for me to be your Mamaw? LOL)

But we did loan him Bill's truck, which he had to drive till payday, and then, with that much coming out at one time...he and his girlfriend sat home and watched TV for a week or two. He didn't have the money to go anywhere.

I did not have to preach to him, but he learned a valuable lesson. He's told me since then, "I wish I hadn't paid out for the tattoo."

I said, "In spite of the fact that EVERYBODY is doing it?"

And he said, "Most of them, their parents hand out money to them."

He's 20 years old.

A valuable lesson Mamaw!!!

Ya know... when the Lord prompts me and it'll involve money the confirmation is usually a sudden aquiring of the money needed. I've even had people come up to me and tell me that the Lord had placed it upon them to give me money. I've learned from the many times that this has happened it's just one of the ways that the Lord confirms His will. No different with the tattoos, no different with a missions trip south of me, no different with a week we came up short $50 for a full gas tank to take me to pay day and a person handed me $50 and said words I've heard many times... the Lord has placed this upon my heart to give to you. My wife is now just learning to accept such blessings from God.

Back to the lesson... I spent a year saving my allowance (yes, it's our budgeting system) for a M4 wannabe rifle. Once I had the $1000 I was listening to Christian radio and they were having a fund drive. God convicted me as I was driving to the store and I turned around and drove home to donate $500 and then went into the backroom and cried as the Lord ministered while I prayed about how I denied myself things that I needed for myself and how He had led me to save all that money so He could help the radio station and now free me to go purchase stuff I did need, not want.

It was a lesson of needs vs wants and I got what I needed and God got what He needed as well for that radio station.

Vhayes
Apr 1st 2010, 03:46 AM
I have no tatoos and have no desire to ever get one. But I don't care if a brother or a sister has them head to toe. I have enough to take care of looking after my own life and walk with the Lord than to worry about what others are doing and how their walk is coming along. I figure if the Lord doesn't want them to have tatoos, He'll let them know. If He wants me to get one, He'll be sure to make that clear.

Jemand
Apr 1st 2010, 04:24 AM
Your story reminds me of David Wilkerson. Although I don't agree with him theologically, but I have to respect him for the work he has done in the Lord.

David Wilkerson has led more hardcore street gangsters and people on the fringe to the Lord then anyone I know who has tattoos. And David Wilkerson looks nothing like them. He wears a suit, has normal hair, no tattoos, wears glasses, looks very decent....he doesn't behave like them, talk like them or walk like them.

From the mouth of the people whom he led to the Lord, the one thing that they saw in this man was love. He loved them despite all that they were.

And this is the principle that the Lord laid down for his disciples.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Why would we then be "of the world" when the Lord specifically told us we are "not of the world?" Nowhere did Jesus teach us to be like sinners or even look like sinners to reach the sinners. The Lord never became a tax collector to reach tax collectors. He never did what they did, he just loved them. And they came flocking to him en masse.

Similarly all we need to do is to love people. David Wilkerson is the best proof of this.

Amen! In my pastoral experience, I learned that my love for my congregation was the most important thing that I had to give them. An excellent university and seminary education is important, but without a genuine, sacrificial love for the people, even the very finest education is as nothing. Sound theology and well-prepared sermons and Bible studies are important, but more than anything, my congregation wanted to see Christ in me, and not only in the pulpit and the classroom, but in my daily life.

My congregation was very diverse, but being in the inner city, the Church attracted some very lost people. One of them was a young biker named Johnny, a tattooed member of the Hell’s Angels gang. He did not come to any of our church services or Bible studies, but came to visit me in my office. In his first visit, he told me about something that had recently happened. He had returned to his motorbike where he had parked it and found it laying on its side. A man was standing by the bike, and he told Johnny that he had accidentally knocked it over and was waiting for him to return so that he could offer to pay for any damage to the bike. Johnny was infuriated, took out a knife, and cut open the man’s abdomen. I asked Johnny if the man died, and Johnny told me that he did not know and never thought about it. Johnny was a cold-blooded killer with no sign of a conscience. I shared the gospel with him, but he showed no response to it.

On a subsequent visit, he told me that his gang had run over a 14-year-old boy right in front of his house, and that the boy’s mother came out and watched her boy die in the street. Johnny was apprehended by the police and charged with negligent homicide and was out on bail awaiting the trial. He showed no concern at all for the boy or his mother, but was worried about being sent to prison.

Every several days or so, Johnny came to see me and tell me the latest news in his life. I listened compassionately, and Johnny seemed to find comfort talking to me. After several visits, however, he stopped coming. A month past and then Johnny walked into my office. He told me that he had just gotten out of jail on a different charge, and that he had not come to see me because he was in jail. He went on to tell me that while he was in jail, he had nightmares about being in hell, and he was afraid that hell was a real place and that he was headed there. Nonetheless, he was not ready to believe in the gospel.

A few weeks passed and I was in the last few minutes of preparing to leave on my church’s retreat when a friend brought a stranger into my office and told me that the man wanted to talk to me. My friend knew that we had to leave in a few minutes, and I was a little irritated by her bringing the man into my office, but I asked the man to sit down in the chair opposite my desk, and when my friend left the room and closed the door, the man began to speak. I very clearly recognized the man’s voice, but not at all his face. It was very obvious that the man knew me, but I had never seen him before—or so I thought. He thanked me for loving him in spite of the man that he was, and began telling me that he had been saved and that Christ had given him a new life. I put the pieces together in my mind and realized that the man in front of me was Johnny! He still had his tattoos, but I had not noticed them that day because his countenance was so radiating the love and forgiveness of Christ that I did not even recognize him. He had been genuinely saved, gone to court before a born-again judge, and with the judge’s help, had a new life in a new community. He came to see me to thank me and tell me what Christ had done for him.

In my street ministry, I prayed for God’s help in finding people who had serious needs that I could meet, and I then went about meeting the needs of those people. In some cases, all it took was 30 or 40 minutes for them to believe and accept Christ as their Lord and their Savior; in other cases, it took a chain of events over a period of days or weeks, but as the people saw that I truly loved them, their hearts were softened and they believed.

Jemand
Apr 1st 2010, 05:07 AM
You actually believe a tattoo is sinful?

No, a tattoo is not sinful, but defacing our bodies with tattoos is very sinful.


Besides... if you read my posts... I don't speak with "gullible" people, I speak with ones that Christians have hurt, because of their tattoos which they said was sinful and made these people feel that God will not accept them.

I have ministered to very many people with tattoos, and I know better that to tell them that getting tattoos is sinful—and every Christian that I have ministered with has known better than that. Once the people have gotten saved and have grown in Christ, they will not need anyone to tell them that defacing our bodies with tattoos is sinful.


Did this holy man instruct you in how to thwart God's efforts in using each and every servant of His, no matter what they look like?

90 whole minutes and you consider this perhaps your more sacred moments? He's just a man who has his problems between him and God... like me, and like you.

Experience the Holy Spirit come upon you for a second and you'll see how your 90 minutes can't even compare.

I guess any servant of God who does not meet your standard really aren't doing God's work... huh? What they say/do as God leads them is false in your eyes because they don't meet the Jemand standard of holiness (pure and spotless)?

A heart that God has worked in... since it's under skin that is tattooed, they won't provide you with a "blessed" moment as God shines through them but the bright light is now multicolored due to the tattoos?

Besides... spotless and pure? Come on... BLAMELESS before God, sure and how would we even know that? Pure and spotless? Only a man who looks with natural eyes would say such a thing. Let's not put man up on a pedestal and call a moment with them... sacred. Any man of God hearing you call a meeting with them, sacred... they'd correct you because a man of God is humble.

A sacred moment is reserved for Jesus.

I freely admit that I have met only a few men and women with truly clean hands and a pure heart, and I have met only one human being such as the man with whom I spent those 90 minutes. Such people are to serve as examples to us of how we should conduct our own lives.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 1st 2010, 06:22 AM
I'm not David Wilkerson so I'm not used the same way as DW. Next we'd have to wear his same style of clothes (which I probably can't afford) and eat the same food he does for the Lord to use me the same as He does DW. Is that what you're saying?

No Slug, I'm trying to help you see that your argument that having tattoos helps you reach out to sinners hold no water and is unscriptural.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 1st 2010, 06:27 AM
Besides... if you read my posts... I don't speak with "gullible" people, I speak with ones that Christians have hurt, because of their tattoos which they said was sinful and made these people feel that God will not accept them.

Slug, if you'd go back and review what everyone who's against tattoos is posting, I don't remember a single person who said God will not accept a person with a tattoo. I think all of us agree that if a person who already had tattoos came to the Lord, that he was to be accepted the same as everyone else and it's totally ok.

What we are saying is that if you're born again and are thinking of getting a tattoo, then you probably shouldn't. There's a big difference in the two cases and I hope you can see that.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 10:24 AM
Slug, if you'd go back and review what everyone who's against tattoos is posting, I don't remember a single person who said God will not accept a person with a tattoo. I think all of us agree that if a person who already had tattoos came to the Lord, that he was to be accepted the same as everyone else and it's totally ok.

What we are saying is that if you're born again and are thinking of getting a tattoo, then you probably shouldn't. There's a big difference in the two cases and I hope you can see that.Explain to us then scripturally why God says that getting a tattoo is wrong? Also, explain how your explaination cannot be applied to use of the internet, tv, holidays, and anything else that so many Christians do while "other" Christians don't for whatever the reason, whether by God's lead, opinion, oppression, bondage, or just plain attitude due to what they learned through their religion.

We all know God will accept anyone with a tattoo... reread all I have said. There are many out in the world "hurt" by other Christians into thinking that God will not accept them due to their tattoos. Sure, I understand that a man or a women, dressed fine, no tattoos can be used by God in a powerful way. These people don't speak about those they "didn't" lead to Christ because some they spoke to were "SO HURT", they didn't listen to what the nicely, untattooed man/women had to say. Those are the one's the Lord has led me to.

Even if our suit dressed, untattooed man/women of God did plant a seed, others are led to water that seed (or plant) and while you, Jemand, and all the other members of this board in this thread who don't "like" tattoos and speak out against them... the Lord is using those with tattoos to water seeds and plant seeds. Some He's prepared for this, I'm not the only one.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 10:30 AM
No Slug, I'm trying to help you see that your argument that having tattoos helps you reach out to sinners hold no water and is unscriptural.Just as Paul didn't do as the culture he was talking with? Sure, he didn't get a tattoo but with a Jew, he was a Jew, with a gentile, he was a gentile. The Lord will lead us so don't use the scapegoat... "are you saying then, with a drug addict, you're gonna take drugs?"

We are mature in the Lord and we are obedient to His will even when led in ways to reach others. Kinda like Paul, led to preach to the gentiles and some of the Apostles gripped and God had to step in and prove it to some of them of how He was leading Paul different then the rest of them.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 1st 2010, 10:41 AM
Explain to us then scripturally why God says that getting a tattoo is wrong? Also, explain how your explaination cannot be applied to use of the internet, tv, holidays, and anything else that so many Christians do while "other" Christians don't for whatever the reason, whether by God's lead, opinion, oppression, bondage, or just plain attitude due to what they learned through their religion.

Slug, I don't see any point arguing. The arguments are getting ridiculous. Use of internet? Holidays? What next, diapers? Driving cars? Living in high-rise apartments?

I don't know what you use the internet for but I use it to read and send emails, check out forums on topics of interest to me, read book reviews, look at pictures of pretty hunting knives and maybe play a puzzle game or two when I'm bored. I really don't see the connection.


We all know God will accept anyone with a tattoo... reread all I have said. There are many out in the world "hurt" by other Christians into thinking that God will not accept them due to their tattoos. Sure, I understand that a man or a women, dressed fine, no tattoos can be used by God in a powerful way. These people don't speak about those they "didn't" lead to Christ because some they spoke to were "SO HURT", they didn't listen to what the nicely, untattooed man/women had to say. Those are the one's the Lord has led me to.

The problem is these hurtful people's attitude towards these tattooed people. The problem is not that those people didn't have tattoos. It doesn't make a difference if you have a tattoo or not when you minister to them. What matters is that you love them and accept them for who they are. It'll make no difference if you were tattooed all over and were hurtful, mean-spirited and unkind.


Even if our suit dressed, untattooed man/women of God did plant a seed, others are led to water that seed (or plant) and while you, Jemand, and all the other members of this board in this thread who don't "like" tattoos and speak out against them... the Lord is using those with tattoos to water seeds and plant seeds. Some He's prepared for this, I'm not the only one.

It isn't that we don't "like" tattoos. It's that the Lord has clearly forbidden it in Scripture and that's what we're trying to tell you. The fact that you've gotten tattooed is water under the bridge. It's done, and no one can change that and no one I think is judging anyone for things already done.

What you're unable to understand is that you think that we need to be like sinners to reach sinners. This is unscriptural and unbiblical. Scripture tells us we're a perculiar people, set apart, holy, not of this world. Scripture doesn't tell us to become like the world to reach the world. Scripture says the way to reach the world is through love, intecessory prayer and preaching of the Word of God which is like a sword that pierces the heart.

So at the end of the day, it comes down to this: Do we do it God's way, or do we think we know better and do it our way? Do we have faith to believe God at his Word, that if he says be set apart, and be holy, we obey, or do we act in disbelief and resort to human intelligence and human judgement?

This'll be my last post, because we're just arguing and no one is really listening and thinking. The brain has gone into neutral gear.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 11:29 AM
Slug, I don't see any point arguing. The arguments are getting ridiculous. Use of internet? Holidays? What next, diapers? Driving cars? Living in high-rise apartments?

I don't know what you use the internet for but I use it to read and send emails, check out forums on topics of interest to me, read book reviews, look at pictures of pretty hunting knives and maybe play a puzzle game or two when I'm bored. I really don't see the connection.



The problem is these hurtful people's attitude towards these tattooed people. The problem is not that those people didn't have tattoos. It doesn't make a difference if you have a tattoo or not when you minister to them. What matters is that you love them and accept them for who they are. It'll make no difference if you were tattooed all over and were hurtful, mean-spirited and unkind.



It isn't that we don't "like" tattoos. It's that the Lord has clearly forbidden it in Scripture and that's what we're trying to tell you. The fact that you've gotten tattooed is water under the bridge. It's done, and no one can change that and no one I think is judging anyone for things already done.

What you're unable to understand is that you think that we need to be like sinners to reach sinners. This is unscriptural and unbiblical. Scripture tells us we're a perculiar people, set apart, holy, not of this world. Scripture doesn't tell us to become like the world to reach the world. Scripture says the way to reach the world is through love, intecessory prayer and preaching of the Word of God which is like a sword that pierces the heart.

So at the end of the day, it comes down to this: Do we do it God's way, or do we think we know better and do it our way? Do we have faith to believe God at his Word, that if he says be set apart, and be holy, we obey, or do we act in disbelief and resort to human intelligence and human judgement?

This'll be my last post, because we're just arguing and no one is really listening and thinking. The brain has gone into neutral gear.Point out the scripture... no explaination. Just all the scripture that:


It's that the Lord has clearly forbidden it in Scripture and that's what we're trying to tell you.

I ask for no explaination because only the Holy Spirit convicts of God's truth and God's meaning in the New Covenent.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 01:28 PM
No, a tattoo is not sinful, but defacing our bodies with tattoos is very sinful.Can you post all the scripture without explaination included in the post and allow the Holy Spirit to do the convicting of God's truth... please.

Jemand
Apr 1st 2010, 04:22 PM
The problem is these hurtful people's attitude towards these tattooed people. The problem is not that those people didn't have tattoos. It doesn't make a difference if you have a tattoo or not when you minister to them. What matters is that you love them and accept them for who they are. It'll make no difference if you were tattooed all over and were hurtful, mean-spirited and unkind.

Amen! It is the Holy Spirit that convicts men and women of their need of salvation. Everyone needs to be loved, and the more involved in sin a sinner is, the more he or she needs to be loved. Because of their sin, it can be very difficult for them to believe that God loves them; but when they see God loving them through us, they know that God loves them and desires to save them. Having tattoos does not show that we love them; getting involved in their lives and meeting their needs shows that we love them.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 04:52 PM
Amen! It is the Holy Spirit that convicts men and women of their need of salvation. Everyone needs to be loved, and the more involved in sin a sinner is, the more he or she needs to be loved. Because of their sin, it can be very difficult for them to believe that God loves them; but when they see God loving them through us, they know that God loves them and desires to save them. Having tattoos does not show that we love them; getting involved in their lives and meeting their needs shows that we love them.
God loves sinners He just doesn't love their sin. If you do not need to have a tattoo to show that you love the sinner and want him/her to see their need of Christ does that mean that you don't need to drink beer with them? Or smoke tobacco? Or cheat on your wife/husband? Why if that's the case you could be very different from them and who knows maybe more like Christ!! Imagine being a living example of the freedom from activities that cause harm to one's health and promotes wholesome family living.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 1st 2010, 05:07 PM
God loves sinners He just doesn't love their sin. If you do not need to have a tattoo to show that you love the sinner and want him/her to see their need of Christ does that mean that you don't need to drink beer with them? Or smoke tobacco? Or cheat on your wife/husband? Why if that's the case you could be very different from them and who knows maybe more like Christ!! Imagine being a living example of the freedom from activities that cause harm to one's health and promotes wholesome family living.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Roger I have a question for you.....

So do you equate everybody who has a tattoo as a beer drinking, cigarette smoking adulterer? What of those who have Been Saved by the Blood of Christ... Geunuinely Saved... they come walking by you on the street.. in your heart you 'judge' them already... saying..'theres one of those beer drinkin, pot smoking tattooe'd adulterers again'.....


Roger, if thats the case.. then thats an attitude that smells of legalism and self righteousness... an attitude that 'judges' on the outer appearance.... judging by the 'flesh'... which is what the Pharisees and scribes of Jesus's Day did.. almost daily.. as they walked about Jersualem.. snubbing there noses at all those 'sinners'.... when they couldn't see their 'own' sin.. even when It was pointed out to them face to face by the Son of Man.. who is God in the Flesh.. Jesus the Christ..

Jemand
Apr 1st 2010, 05:11 PM
God loves sinners He just doesn't love their sin. If you do not need to have a tattoo to show that you love the sinner and want him/her to see their need of Christ does that mean that you don't need to drink beer with them? Or smoke tobacco? Or cheat on your wife/husband? Why if that's the case you could be very different from them and who knows maybe more like Christ!! Imagine being a living example of the freedom from activities that cause harm to one's health and promotes wholesome family living.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen! Getting involved in the lives of sinners does not mean getting tattoos, drinking beer with them, or smoking tobacco or marijuana with them; it means getting involved in their lives like Jesus got involved in the lives of the people to whom he ministered. Christians should not be looking for reasons to sin; Christians should be looking to Jesus who redeemed them from bondage to sin.

Vhayes
Apr 1st 2010, 05:13 PM
I guess this means Tai Chi is out, huh?

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 05:17 PM
While everyone keeps high-5ing each other... can anyone post any of the scripture that the Holy Spirit will use to convict a Christian that defacing our flesh with tattoos is either sinful or clearly forbidden?

Just the scripture please, so we all can view God's Word and not man's interpretation of God's Word.

Thank you :hug:

Firefighter
Apr 1st 2010, 05:19 PM
While everyone keeps high-5ing each other... can anyone post any of the scripture that the Holy Spirit will use to convict a Christian that defacing our flesh with tattoos is either sinful or clearly forbidden?

Just the scripture please, so we all can view God's Word and not man's interpretation of God's Word.

Thank you :hug:

But we have all of these really well thought out arguments... you mean we need scripture????

Vhayes
Apr 1st 2010, 05:20 PM
While everyone keeps high-5ing each other... can anyone post any of the scripture that the Holy Spirit will use to convict a Christian that defacing our flesh with tattoos is either sinful or clearly forbidden?

Just the scripture please, so we all can view God's Word and not man's interpretation of God's Word.

Thank you :hug:
I THINK there's something there about shaving as well... better throw away the razors, gents. And I'll get out my burqa....

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 05:23 PM
I would simply like for this thread to "progress" in Christ's light... Scripture only will do this.

Jemand
Apr 1st 2010, 05:26 PM
I guess this means Tai Chi is out, huh?

2 Peter 1:2. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
3. as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
4. by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
6. to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
7. to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
8. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
11. for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (NKJV)

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 1st 2010, 05:33 PM
I would simply like for this thread to "progress" in Christ's light... Scripture only will do this.

Unfortunately there are some who are 'legalistic'..... and those who have set up an 'image' as to what a 'Christian should look like BY APPEARANCE'....

Jesus's said this..

Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgement....


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

the ones who judge by appearance, which is a command not to do....

these are usually the ones who 'strain at a gnat'... yet swallow a camel..

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 05:36 PM
1 Cor 15:33-34 Be not deceived evil communications corrupts good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 05:38 PM
Unfortunately there are some who are 'legalistic'..... and those who have set up an 'image' as to what a 'Christian should look like BY APPEARANCE'....

Jesus's said this..

Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgement....


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

the ones who judge by appearance, which is a command not to do....

these are usually the ones who 'strain at a gnat'... yet swallow a camel..I'm patient, so are all guests reading this thread waiting for the scripture to help them.

We just need all the scripture "pure" so the spirit of legalism and of religion can't twist it into accusation because once the spirit of accusation is loosed... more get hurt.

This is what hurt's all those that are hurt out there in the world.

With that said...

Can someone post all the scripture that the Holy Spirit will use to convict a Christian that defacing the flesh with tattoos is either sinful or clearly forbidden and Christ's light and God's will, will triumph.

Firefighter
Apr 1st 2010, 05:59 PM
1 Cor 15:33-34 Be not deceived evil communications corrupts good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What does this have to do with tattoos? For this to be relevant, one must first consider tattoos to be "evil"...

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 07:23 PM
What does this have to do with tattoos? For this to be relevant, one must first consider tattoos to be "evil"...Convicted by God that tattoos are evil... opinion/consideration doesn't help and only hinder's God's truth.

Patiently waiting...

Reynolds357
Apr 1st 2010, 07:59 PM
What does this have to do with tattoos? For this to be relevant, one must first consider tattoos to be "evil"...
You are missing the point. Tattoos are evil because Roger says they are evil.
Now all we must do is use scripture to show that Chirstians are to avoid evil.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 08:01 PM
You are missing the point. Tattoos are evil because Roger says they are evil.

We are waiting patiently...

-SEEKING-
Apr 1st 2010, 08:03 PM
Wow. 13 pages. :B :B :B :B :B :B :B

Reynolds357
Apr 1st 2010, 08:05 PM
We are waiting patiently...

You are going to be waiting for a long time.:spin:

Slug1
Apr 1st 2010, 08:05 PM
Wow. 13 pages. :B :B :B :B :B :B :BI know.... it would be much longer if all the scripture would be posted.

It's only 5 pages long for me :P

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 1st 2010, 08:28 PM
1 Cor 15:33-34 Be not deceived evil communications corrupts good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


How is this relevant to tattoos? unless a tattoo can speak??

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 08:39 PM
How is this relevant to tattoos? unless a tattoo can speak??
From a linear perspective they cannot. But actions speak. I view scripture in three dimensions not two. The verse was presented without comment per request. The intent to allow each to draw his/her own conclusions.

The folks you hang out with have an effect on your values and moral ethics. Hang out in the bar or nightclub and you will soon have little or no interest in the things of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 1st 2010, 08:41 PM
1 Cor 15:33-34 Be not deceived evil communications corrupts good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Unless you believe that if you even speak with somebody, somebody who is unsaved and a 'sinner'.. that if you even speak to them or carry on a conversation with them.. then that is 'evil communication'.... are you convicted Roger if somebody who is unsaved carries on a conversation with you? that its 'sin' to communicate with someobody who is not at your spiritual level?

I'm trying to figure out your use of evil communication with a tattoo....

to be honest.. I really smell the aroma of legalism and self righteousness... the aroma is pretty strong..

notuptome
Apr 1st 2010, 09:07 PM
Unless you believe that if you even speak with somebody, somebody who is unsaved and a 'sinner'.. that if you even speak to them or carry on a conversation with them.. then that is 'evil communication'.... are you convicted Roger if somebody who is unsaved carries on a conversation with you? that its 'sin' to communicate with someobody who is not at your spiritual level?

I'm trying to figure out your use of evil communication with a tattoo....

to be honest.. I really smell the aroma of legalism and self righteousness... the aroma is pretty strong..
Eph 4:27-29 Neither give place to the devil. Let him the stole steal no more but rather let him labor working with his hands the thing that is good that he may give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceede out of your mouth but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace to the hearers.

I suggest that you are way off base here and should reconsider your position. I have not said anything close to what you seem to believe. The scriptures are reasonably clear and cover way more important matters than tattoos.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2010, 01:59 PM
Thank you for your posting of scripture Roger...

Will any of the others who proclaim that defacing the flesh with tattoos is sinful and/or clearly forbidden... please post all the scripture that the Holy Spirit will use to convict a Christian of this?

Thank you!

karenoka27
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:10 PM
I am not against tattoos, my favorite show is LA Ink. That being said and just for the topic of discussion here are some Bible verses that some might say speak against tattoos:

Leviticus 19:8-"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord."
This only speaks of marking your body in remembrance of the dead...and it's Old Testament.

With that said:
1 Corinthians 10:31-"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."
I think litte miss rainbow's tattoo speaks for itself.:hug:

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:14 PM
I am not against tattoos, my favorite show is LA Ink. That being said and just for the topic of discussion here are some Bible verses that some might say speak against tattoos:

Leviticus 19:8-"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord."
This only speaks of marking your body in remembrance of the dead...and it's Old Testament.

With that said:
1 Corinthians 10:31-"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."
I think litte miss rainbow's tattoo speaks for itself.:hug:

Funny how you say the tattoo speaks for itself...

It is for the glory of Jesus!

Rogers scripture is about communication....

People have touched on "action".

Hmmmmm!

karenoka27
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:17 PM
I just thought of something else..when Leviticus speaks of not marking the dead on your body (if I am right in that)..then putting a tattoo of Jesus on you is pretty awesome...because He is alive!

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:22 PM
As I've said in other threads... Christians need to have their "spiritual" eyes open and not view all the Lord does with natural eyes.

I see that you are seeing Karen!

karenoka27
Apr 2nd 2010, 02:23 PM
I have a tattoo in mind that I would love to get..only it wouldn't have it's full meaning at this time in my life...that and my husband won't let me get one!

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:35 PM
Eph 4:27-29 Neither give place to the devil. Let him the stole steal no more but rather let him labor working with his hands the thing that is good that he may give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceede out of your mouth but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace to the hearers.

I suggest that you are way off base here and should reconsider your position. I have not said anything close to what you seem to believe. The scriptures are reasonably clear and cover way more important matters than tattoos.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Reconsider my position on what Roger?


that I 'judge' by appearance? instead of Righteous Judgement...

I used to judge by appearance Roger.. until I was disciplined by Jesus Himself.. and He gave me the ability to 'see' ... not by the flesh or appearance.. but thru His eyes....

and you Roger, by your posts here, and the attitude.. you take...has the flavor of spiritual pride and self righteousness...

You probably didn't read some of my earlier posts on this thread... I boldly spoke that I myself would never get a tattoo... but just because someone has one... I'm not going to 'label' them and judge them as some pot smoking beer guzzling adulterer..as your posts point to.. 'putting those who have them in a box' like that...

and you never did answer my question about you walking down the street Roger and you passing by someobody who has a tattoo.. and this Person Genuinely Saved by the blood of Christ.. and you 'secretly judging them in your heart and thoughts.. '''there goes another one of those beer guzzlin pot smoking tattoo adulterers'....

have you done that in the past Roger? not 'knowing' who the person is.. or that probably one of those you 'judged' was LIterally a Genuine Born AGain Christian? if you have 'secretly judged' them.. then God already Knows it Roger... and in 'judging' them by appearance..... you do despite onto the Spirit of Grace.. by that pharisitical and self righteous attitude...

I also made it known that there is coming a day when many will be marked by a tattoo.. this coming in the future.. as they show their allegiance to the beast and his kingdom.. recieiving that mark in their hand or forehead... a tattoo is what it will be... open and visible for all to see...

Once Again Roger, I'll say this..

Judge not by appearance, but judge Righteous Judgement..


and the only time you will be able to judge by appearance as far as a tattoo goes.. is the time coming when multitudes will be marked by one.. to show their allegiance to the beast and his kingdom.. then one can make a 'Righeous Judgement' and say.... that 'tattoo'... is NOT THE THING TO DO... and many will not take 'it'.. judging Righteously.. and will lose their head for their stance and Testimony of Jesus Christ which they bear and He has given them...

grit
Apr 2nd 2010, 03:50 PM
Jesus is my Husband, and He says it's OK that He writes and draws stuff on my heart, but that I don't hast to stick nails or needles or pins and stuff into my flesh or cut myself in any way, even to get a flu vaccine, 'cause He already did that for me once and for all. Still, if I wanna fellowship in His suffering and be a living sacrifice or go overseas and all... and, and... Bob the Barker says I'm suppose to get my pet spayed or neutered... :hmm:

grit
Apr 2nd 2010, 04:01 PM
I THINK there's something there about shaving as well... better throw away the razors, gents. And I'll get out my burqa....
Leviticus 19:27 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/19-27.htm) (ESV); "You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard."

I had to fall back to that Scripture once, to calm the waters a bit, in arguing with a clean-shaven man how my manly ponytail and beard (no, I am not a horse) would beat his smooth face in a Scripture grudge match. We left the conversation as mutal brothers and friends still.

Diggindeeper
Apr 3rd 2010, 02:37 AM
I see it this way. I never wanted a tattoo. I never wanted to be needled and inked. This is my preference. But I do know people who have tattoos who are deacons at my church. Former military men. Good, honest, decent, God fearing men. Men who love and serve the Lord with all their heart and have reared their children to serve the Lord. Just because I don't want a tattoo, it gives me no right to question WHY they got one to begin with. It makes no difference to me why or when they got one.

I'm sure these men are reaching people that I may never, ever meet in this life. First, because they are men and I am a lady. Second, because they may be more 'street wise' than me. But you know, I really don't think someone would 'see' their tattoo and immediately think something like WOW! He has a tattoo and he goes to church and he's a GOOD man. I'm gonna talk to him, because he has a tattoo."

The fact is, I don't think it matters either way to the worldly people. The good Lord will use each and every one of us. He will put people across our path, and our ministry field is those who enter our circle of life...wherever that may be. Whether we are tattooed or not. Whether I wear make up and danging earrings or whether I have never cut my hair or worn lipstick.

So, those who have tattoos...some here and there may not like that I wear lipstick and I do wear danging earrings. Hey, if you are comfortable, and I am with my makeup, short hair cut and danging earrings...then just go on and work while it is day. I am sure you are reaching people that I will never meet. I hope I reach people that you may never reach.

There is one scripture that I depend on a lot. Its this:
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Its the here and now, where we live, that is important. Life is too short, believe me, to argue over 14 pages about tattoos. Every guest who has been keeping up with this thread will either decide (by whats been said) that they WANT to get a tattoo, or they will decide they DON'T WANT ONE. Ultimately, they each will make up their own mind. And isn't that what we do too?

Oh, and one more thing. Its not our place to condemn anyone who has a tattoo, or who wears short hair and dangling earrings! Even the Lord Jesus did not come to condemn, so what gives us the right to condemn ANYONE who does not look like us.

Slug, you just be you, and go on with the work of the Lord. The Lord is just using you too much to become offended. Its not worth it. And don't worry...I ain't gonna tell you that you need to cut your hair or wear dangling earrings. Like me. If you don't tell me I have to have a tattoo. Like you. You are you and I am me and we aren't supposed to be alike.

Firefighter
Apr 3rd 2010, 02:50 AM
BRAVO DIGGIN!!!! BRAVO!!!! Great Post!!!

Slug1
Apr 3rd 2010, 04:38 AM
Awesome post Mamaw!!

You know me though, I don't want to see anyone bound in legalism nor religion because people take scripture and due to the way these two spirits tagteam people, they use those already bound to bind others.

These spirits also know that pure scripture, scripture posted without words to twist the meaning when presented... what was the word they used previously... "gullible", people... well, pure scripture cannot be touched by these spirits when presented.

That is why I asked and asked and asked but they won't post... those spirits know there is no point because God's truth will reign and not their words of argument and manipulation.

Even when some is presented... later explained, we clearly see the manipulation as it is upon the one explaining. We're not fooled.

notuptome
Apr 3rd 2010, 02:01 PM
In the days of Noah every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Some may wish to lable me judgmental or legalistic and that is your priviledge. You will doubtless struggle long and hard to justify your condemantion of one who would dare to resist your libertine reasoning.

I have not condemned anyone who has a tattoo. I have advocated that those who do not have them do not obtain one. Christians who have tattoos from their previous life in light of scriptures teaching of modesty and humility ought not to go about bragging about their tattoos.

Paul warned Timothy that the time would come when sound doctrine would not be endured. 2 Tim 4:1-5. We have come a long way in the last one hundred years. Tattoos, social drinking, rock & roll music, pastors who are divorced and remarried, and women pastors are but a few commonly accepted behaviours that would have shocked the church even fifty years ago. Some are even ready to embrace sodomites into the ministry.

If objecting to these things makes me a legalist then I'll just have to be, in your eye,s a legalist but I have been called a lot worse.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

-SEEKING-
Apr 3rd 2010, 04:38 PM
Wow. Relating tattoos to sodomites! Seriously?

notuptome
Apr 3rd 2010, 06:42 PM
Wow. Relating tattoos to sodomites! Seriously?
You are a deep thinker.

Have you ever considered what is written in Eph 6:12?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 3rd 2010, 11:22 PM
You are a deep thinker.

Have you ever considered what is written in Eph 6:12?

For the cause of Christ
RogerWhich is why my challenge has gone un-answered by the specific two I asked Roger.

BadDog
Apr 4th 2010, 01:23 AM
Is there a verse in the Bible that mentions putting a tatoo on your body? I'm not wanting to get one, I was just wondering about it.
Thanks,
Beverly
Beverly,

Those who say that there is, are taking verses out of context, IMO.

BD

-SEEKING-
Apr 4th 2010, 07:04 PM
MOD NOTE:

It has been agreed that this thread has run it's course. So it is now closed. Thank you all for your understanding.