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View Full Version : Pauls conversion serves as an pattern to those who shall believe !



anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 01:35 AM
1 tim 1:

12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;


13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

The word pattern is the greek word:

hypotypōsis

an outline, sketch, brief and summary exposition

2) an example, pattern

a) for an example of those who should hereafter believe


Basically, God has Paul's conversion on record as an example of how He saves sinners, even from their unbelief, because unbelief in nothing more than ignorance of which all the elect are by nature, before new birth:

eph 4:

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

These are traits and symptoms of all mankind in relation to the True God..

Yes, Paul was like that even as a devout jew..and so are all who belong to the church of God to which Christ came to seek and to save...all may not be as religious as Paul was, but all are as blind, without understanding, and ignorant..

But God shows us by Paul, how He saves sinners..

There are things we learn from Paul's example, that are applicable to each child of Grace who shall believe on Him [ Jesus Christ] unto everlasting salvation..or life everlasting..

Let us look at gal 1:


15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

What is said here by Paul and about his conversion, can equally be said about all believers in Christ, though of course all are not apostles, yet all are equally of the same body with the same head, Jesus Christ..

All believers to be are as Paul was :

who separated me from my mother's womb

Yes, all believers in Christ, true believers that is, were separated by God from their mothers womb..

The word separated means:

to mark off from others by boundaries, to limit, to separate

in a good sense: to appoint, set apart for some purpose

Yes, all who are called according to Gods purpose rom 8:28 are even from the womb, protected and guarded by a providence of God, and a Angel because they are heirs of salvation see heb 1:14..

Notice the definition says, to mark off from others, thats because, even though they are just as sinful as others, they have been chosen for a holy purpose, a purpose of mercy, vessel of mercy apart from others..

God says mal 3:17

And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

They are spared their due destruction for their evil ways by nature..because they are God's heritage..

also look at :

Mich 7:18

Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Paul as well as all the members of Jesus Christ body belong to the remnant of His Heritage, the election of grace..

So thats one point that all believers, past, present, and future have in common with Paul, that from their mothers womb they had been separated by God..and under a all encompassing protective providence that ensures they will be alive to be Called by His Grace..

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 30th 2010, 03:14 AM
1 tim 1:

12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;


13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

The word pattern is the greek word:

hypotypōsis

an outline, sketch, brief and summary exposition

2) an example, pattern

a) for an example of those who should hereafter believe


Basically, God has Paul's conversion on record as an example of how He saves sinners, even from their unbelief, because unbelief in nothing more than ignorance of which all the elect are by nature, before new birth:

eph 4:

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

These are traits and symptoms of all mankind in relation to the True God..

Yes, Paul was like that even as a devout jew..and so are all who belong to the church of God to which Christ came to seek and to save...all may not be as religious as Paul was, but all are as blind, without understanding, and ignorant..

But God shows us by Paul, how He saves sinners..

There are things we learn from Paul's example, that are applicable to each child of Grace who shall believe on Him [ Jesus Christ] unto everlasting salvation..or life everlasting..

Let us look at gal 1:


15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

What is said here by Paul and about his conversion, can equally be said about all believers in Christ, though of course all are not apostles, yet all are equally of the same body with the same head, Jesus Christ..

All believers to be are as Paul was :

who separated me from my mother's womb

Yes, all believers in Christ, true believers that is, were separated by God from their mothers womb..

The word separated means:

to mark off from others by boundaries, to limit, to separate

in a good sense: to appoint, set apart for some purpose

Yes, all who are called according to Gods purpose rom 8:28 are even from the womb, protected and guarded by a providence of God, and a Angel because they are heirs of salvation see heb 1:14..

Notice the definition says, to mark off from others, thats because, even though they are just as sinful as others, they have been chosen for a holy purpose, a purpose of mercy, vessel of mercy apart from others..

God says mal 3:17

And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

They are spared their due destruction for their evil ways by nature..because they are God's heritage..

also look at :

Mich 7:18

Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Paul as well as all the members of Jesus Christ body belong to the remnant of His Heritage, the election of grace..

So thats one point that all believers, past, present, and future have in common with Paul, that from their mothers womb they had been separated by God..and under a all encompassing protective providence that ensures they will be alive to be Called by His Grace..

Correct... a remnant according to the Election of Grace.. amen and amen...

and when Saul who became Paul..


when He was converted on the Road to Damscus...

Jesus didn't offer Him a pamphlet with the 'option' to choose Him....

Paul had already been chosen.. from the Foundation of the World...

the Damascus Road Conversion....

Paul going in the opposite direction .. yet Converted...

because Paul was given the opportunity to choose Jesus Christ?

It was already Ordained that he be Saved on that Damascus Road...

and it came to pass...

Saul who became Paul was on his way to persecute and probably execute Chrisitans... he wasnt in the mood nor in the spiritual frame of mind.. to choose Jesus Christ...

Jesus Christ chose Him.. and the rest is written in the Word of God.. as Paul penned it... under the Direction of the HOly Ghost..

kay-gee
Mar 30th 2010, 03:19 AM
Question for you. Is this the method in which YOU were converted?

all the best...

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 03:44 AM
Question for you. Is this the method in which YOU were converted?

all the best...

I was saved the same way sinners are saved as paul was !

1 tim 1:
13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.




Every believer in Christ had their own peculiar damascus road conversion. His conversion served as an pattern he stated. 1 tim 1:

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

My damascus road may not have been on my way some where to persecute and consent to the murder of believers, but it was none the less a sinful path.

Gods method of saving sinners is the same, by His aboundant grace through Jesus christ.

rom 5:

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 03:50 AM
thebeloved:



Paul going in the opposite direction .. yet Converted...



Right, Jesus gave Him repenatnce, as he does all them He saves from their sins.

He blesses His chosen by turning them from their sins acts 3:26

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 10:26 AM
So this is how all the weird doctrines get off the ground? :confused

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 12:58 PM
1 tim 1:

12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;


13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

The word pattern is the greek word:

hypotypōsis

an outline, sketch, brief and summary exposition

2) an example, pattern

a) for an example of those who should hereafter believe


Basically, God has Paul's conversion on record as an example of how He saves sinners, even from their unbelief, because unbelief in nothing more than ignorance of which all the elect are by nature, before new birth:

eph 4:

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

These are traits and symptoms of all mankind in relation to the True God..

Yes, Paul was like that even as a devout jew..and so are all who belong to the church of God to which Christ came to seek and to save...all may not be as religious as Paul was, but all are as blind, without understanding, and ignorant..

But God shows us by Paul, how He saves sinners..

There are things we learn from Paul's example, that are applicable to each child of Grace who shall believe on Him [ Jesus Christ] unto everlasting salvation..or life everlasting..

Let us look at gal 1:


15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

What is said here by Paul and about his conversion, can equally be said about all believers in Christ, though of course all are not apostles, yet all are equally of the same body with the same head, Jesus Christ..

All believers to be are as Paul was :

who separated me from my mother's womb

Yes, all believers in Christ, true believers that is, were separated by God from their mothers womb..

The word separated means:

to mark off from others by boundaries, to limit, to separate

in a good sense: to appoint, set apart for some purpose

Yes, all who are called according to Gods purpose rom 8:28 are even from the womb, protected and guarded by a providence of God, and a Angel because they are heirs of salvation see heb 1:14..

Notice the definition says, to mark off from others, thats because, even though they are just as sinful as others, they have been chosen for a holy purpose, a purpose of mercy, vessel of mercy apart from others..

God says mal 3:17

And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

They are spared their due destruction for their evil ways by nature..because they are God's heritage..

also look at :

Mich 7:18

Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Paul as well as all the members of Jesus Christ body belong to the remnant of His Heritage, the election of grace..

So thats one point that all believers, past, present, and future have in common with Paul, that from their mothers womb they had been separated by God..and under a all encompassing protective providence that ensures they will be alive to be Called by His Grace..

Pauls conversion was according to the message of the gospel that he taught/preached.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our faThers hath chosen Thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear The voice of his mouth.
Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 01:49 PM
So this is how all the weird doctrines get off the ground? :confused

Is that your sentiments about the Truth presented ?

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 01:50 PM
first:



Pauls conversion was according to the message of the gospel that he taught/preached.



Show us where God or Jesus told paul to repent !

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 01:54 PM
Is that your sentiments about the Truth presented ?

It is my opinion about the post, which is not the truth. Do you believe that the Bible legalizes adultery?

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 01:58 PM
freek:


It is my opinion about the post,

Which was scriptural.

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 02:00 PM
first:



Show us where God or Jesus told paul to repent !

Right here is where Paul repented...

Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Salvific repentance is about having a change of mind and heart about WHO Christ is, not repenting from your sins. ;)

Freek
Mar 30th 2010, 02:01 PM
freek:



Which was scriptural.

Anthony, will you eat choc chip cookies which has been made exactly according to the recipe, but I added a few ounces of dog poo to the dough, before it was baked?

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 02:05 PM
Right here is where Paul repented...

Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Salvific repentance is about having a change of mind and heart about WHO Christ is, not repenting from your sins. ;)

Jesus did not tell Him to repent, He gave Him repentance, i had already mentioned this in my OP.

Firefighter
Mar 30th 2010, 02:12 PM
Then were all of the disciples wrong when they told others to repent??

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 02:15 PM
first:



Show us where God or Jesus told paul to repent !

When Jesus spoke to Paul he was still a sinner and had not yet repented until he was asked what he was waiting for.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

That is when he was converted not before.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 02:24 PM
When Jesus spoke to Paul he was still a sinner and had not yet repented until he was asked what he was waiting for.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

That is when he was converted not before.

Firstfruits

Jesus gave Him repentance, as He does all whom He came to save. If a person does not repent, it is because Christ did not come to save them.

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 02:29 PM
When Jesus spoke to Paul he was still a sinner and had not yet repented until he was asked what he was waiting for.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

That is when he was converted not before.

Firstfruits

It was displayed that Paul had been given repentance when he after falling down on the Damascus road, submissively asked the Lord whom he just a few minutes before hated, lord what will thou hast for me to do.

He then exhibited a change of mind, which is what repentance is.

acts 9:

1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? [ repentance displayed]

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 02:45 PM
It was displayed that Paul had been given repentance when he after falling down on the Damascus road, submissively asked the Lord whom he just a few minutes before hated, lord what will thou hast for me to do.

He then exhibited a change of mind, which is what repentance is.

acts 9:

1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? [ repentance displayed]

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? [ repentance displayed]

So if I ask what must I do to be saved, is that showing repentance? That is not what Paul taught.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

If Paul had repented before, why were his sins not blotted out, as in this scripture?

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 02:47 PM
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? [ repentance displayed]

So if I ask what must I do to be saved, is that showing repentance? That is not what Paul taught.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

If Paul had repented before, why were his sins not blotted out, as in this scripture?

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Firstfruits

as I have shown paul had been given repentance on the road when He exhibited a new behaviour.

It was only then, would he submit to water baptism, for he was now a new creation.

HisLeast
Mar 30th 2010, 02:52 PM
Suddenly the prospect of losing faith doesn't seem so bad. I mean, it must not have been given to me in the first place. Perhaps I was never elected and therefor had no free agency in the matter.

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 02:59 PM
theleast:


Suddenly the prospect of losing faith doesn't seem so bad. I mean, it must not have been given to me in the first place.

Thats correct, if God gave it to you, it was because you were an elect titus 1:

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

All men have not Faith 2 thess 3:

2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Because all men are not of His elect.

HisLeast
Mar 30th 2010, 03:03 PM
Thats correct, if God gave it to you, it was because you were an elect titus 1:

So no problem then. If I lose faith, its because I never had it. If I never had it, its because God didn't give it to me. If he didn't give it to me its because he didn't pick me.
So in the grand scheme of things I'm doing exactly as God wanted by not being faithfull. For fullfilling his purpose in this, I face eternal torment.

-SEEKING-
Mar 30th 2010, 03:24 PM
MOD NOTE:

Please stand by.