PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Death Reigned From Adam To Moses?



Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 11:07 AM
What does the following scripture mean regarding;

Sin is not imputed where there is no law.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses.

Rom 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 03:04 PM
death reigned from adam to moses, proved that men sinned in adam when He violated Gods law, thou shall not eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Thats why babies die, for they too were involved in the sin of adam.

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 03:30 PM
death reigned from adam to moses, proved that men sinned in adam when He violated Gods law, thou shall not eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Thats why babies die, for they too were involved in the sin of adam.

I cannot see how that explains death reigning from Adam to Moses?

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

And how about the other part? What does it mean for sin not to be imputed where there is no law?

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 03:32 PM
first:


I cannot see how that explains death reigning from Adam to Moses?

Thats not my problem, I do.

grit
Mar 30th 2010, 03:38 PM
What does the following scripture mean regarding;

Sin is not imputed where there is no law.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses.

Rom 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Firstfruits

Paul has just described the Christian’s “helpless” state in ungodliness prior to Christ’s atonement – that God loved us and Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, so reconciling us to God through His Son’s death, justifying us through His blood, saving us from due wrath as sinners and enemies of God. Paul has heretofore shown from chapter 3 onward that for the Jew, as with all men, there is no possibility of justification through works of the law, but sinners are only justified through faith.

Here, in verse 12, Paul again acknowledges that “all have sinned”, showing how sin and death entered the world through one man, as Paul begins to draw a parallel between the first Adam and the second Adam, Christ, in the distinctions of their influence. Adam brings the reign of sin and death, Christ brings the reign of righteousness and life. In this comparison, Paul takes the opportunity to both show that none are innocent apart from Christ, and that the law confirms our miserable state in the presence of God’s holiness – it is only Christ, the second Adam, who establishes righteous obedience, and we are dependant upon such for life. “From Adam to Moses” is particularized to show that “all have sinned” even prior to the Mosaic covenant. One man, Adam, brought death upon mankind; one man, Christ, brings life to mankind. The Mosaic Law simply confirms man’s depravity and inability to be holy on our own. In Adam people became sinners; in Christ people found new life. Paul is explaining the effects of what he has established as the necessary righteousness of faith, that righteousness is through faith and not by works – that our peace with God is not bought by continual fretting and striving with a law of self works, but that Christ alone is our peace, as established through faith and not a false confidence in one’s own abilities and works.

5:13 indeed seems obscure, but it is in no way self-contradictory, it is parenthetical – that is, it interrupts Paul’s general presentation to explain verse 12. It can be read at least two ways, that “all have sinned” by repeating Adam’s mistake, and/or “all have sinned” by being included in Adam’s mistake. Pelagians find only the former, the Reformed (and most Christian interpretations) include the latter (cf. v. 3:23 (http://nas-stu.scripturetext.com/romans/3.htm), “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”). There was and is sin apart from the Mosaic law, as also apart from the specific command given to Adam and Eve, and yet if Paul had meant in v. 12 that “death passed upon all men” because of each enacting of individual transgression, that all men die because all men sin and everyone is his own Adam, he could have written as much. Verses 13 and 14, and perhaps especially the point of “sin is not imputed” (not counted or reckoned against) “where there is no law”, argue that, nevertheless, even for those for whom no guilt was associated in breaking a specific stricture of the Mosaic Law, they yet still died, as did Adam, for death is the penalty of sin (cf. 6:23 (http://nas-stu.scripturetext.com/romans/6.htm)). This is nowhere better illustrated than in Paul’s earlier chapters, where he details how people violated God’s moral law written even upon their own hearts (cf. 2: 12-16 ff. (http://nas-stu.scripturetext.com/romans/2.htm)). I find the best reading to be that all died because all sinned in and through Adam, the representative head of all humans that follow. The further comparison with Christ, the second Adam, imputing the required perfect obedience and righteousness of life through faith, and not of our own works, not in ourselves, but by the merit of Christ, supports this. We are justified on account of Christ, just as we are condemned on account of Adam. We are imputed either way, to death or to life, God’s own moral law written in every human heart declaring our need of righteousness through faith. No one is saved without Christ, and no way dies without Adam.

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 03:40 PM
first:



Thats not my problem, I do.


We all know that adam sinned, but what does it mean that death reigned from Adam to Moses, What has changed?

Firstfruits

anthony57
Mar 30th 2010, 04:58 PM
We all know that adam sinned, but what does it mean that death reigned from Adam to Moses, What has changed?

Firstfruits

I just gave you my opinion, you said you dont see it, remember ?

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 07:06 PM
Paul has just described the Christian’s “helpless” state in ungodliness prior to Christ’s atonement – that God loved us and Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, so reconciling us to God through His Son’s death, justifying us through His blood, saving us from due wrath as sinners and enemies of God. Paul has heretofore shown from chapter 3 onward that for the Jew, as with all men, there is no possibility of justification through works of the law, but sinners are only justified through faith.

Here, in verse 12, Paul again acknowledges that “all have sinned”, showing how sin and death entered the world through one man, as Paul begins to draw a parallel between the first Adam and the second Adam, Christ, in the distinctions of their influence. Adam brings the reign of sin and death, Christ brings the reign of righteousness and life. In this comparison, Paul takes the opportunity to both show that none are innocent apart from Christ, and that the law confirms our miserable state in the presence of God’s holiness – it is only Christ, the second Adam, who establishes righteous obedience, and we are dependant upon such for life. “From Adam to Moses” is particularized to show that “all have sinned” even prior to the Mosaic covenant. One man, Adam, brought death upon mankind; one man, Christ, brings life to mankind. The Mosaic Law simply confirms man’s depravity and inability to be holy on our own. In Adam people became sinners; in Christ people found new life. Paul is explaining the effects of what he has established as the necessary righteousness of faith, that righteousness is through faith and not by works – that our peace with God is not bought by continual fretting and striving with a law of self works, but that Christ alone is our peace, as established through faith and not a false confidence in one’s own abilities and works.

5:13 indeed seems obscure, but it is in no way self-contradictory, it is parenthetical – that is, it interrupts Paul’s general presentation to explain verse 12. It can be read at least two ways, that “all have sinned” by repeating Adam’s mistake, and/or “all have sinned” by being included in Adam’s mistake. Pelagians find only the former, the Reformed (and most Christian interpretations) include the latter (cf. v. 3:23 (http://nas-stu.scripturetext.com/romans/3.htm), “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”). There was and is sin apart from the Mosaic law, as also apart from the specific command given to Adam and Eve, and yet if Paul had meant in v. 12 that “death passed upon all men” because of each enacting of individual transgression, that all men die because all men sin and everyone is his own Adam, he could have written as much. Verses 13 and 14, and perhaps especially the point of “sin is not imputed” (not counted or reckoned against) “where there is no law”, argue that, nevertheless, even for those for whom no guilt was associated in breaking a specific stricture of the Mosaic Law, they yet still died, as did Adam, for death is the penalty of sin (cf. 6:23 (http://nas-stu.scripturetext.com/romans/6.htm)). This is nowhere better illustrated than in Paul’s earlier chapters, where he details how people violated God’s moral law written even upon their own hearts (cf. 2: 12-16 ff. (http://nas-stu.scripturetext.com/romans/2.htm)). I find the best reading to be that all died because all sinned in and through Adam, the representative head of all humans that follow. The further comparison with Christ, the second Adam, imputing the required perfect obedience and righteousness of life through faith, and not of our own works, not in ourselves, but by the merit of Christ, supports this. We are justified on account of Christ, just as we are condemned on account of Adam. We are imputed either way, to death or to life, God’s own moral law written in every human heart declaring our need of righteousness through faith. No one is saved without Christ, and no way dies without Adam.

Thank you Grit,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2010, 07:09 PM
I just gave you my opinion, you said you dont see it, remember ?

But it says that death reigned from Adam to Moses, does death not still reign?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Mar 30th 2010, 08:48 PM
The cause of death from Adam to Moses was the universal state of all men. The consequence of Adams sin was that all are sinners and all die. There is no mention of a sin offering from Gen 4:7 through Exo 29:14. Men were not responsible for personal sin but under the condemnation of universal sin in Adam. With the law in Moses comes personal responsibility and the imputation of sin mitigated by offering the sin offerings.

Death in the flesh still reigns today. Universal causation. Since Christ men can inherit eternal life through His death on Calvary. Personal responsibility.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Mar 30th 2010, 10:30 PM
What does the following scripture mean regarding;

Sin is not imputed where there is no law.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses.

Rom 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Firstfruits

Paul is making the point that justification is not by the works of the Mosaic Law but by faith in Christ. He states that even though din was in the world and men sinned, these sins were not imputed to them because there was no Law. The effects of sin and death were in the world but God was not counting the sins of men against them at this point, because there was no law to define for men what sin was.

Butch5
Mar 30th 2010, 10:32 PM
death reigned from adam to moses, proved that men sinned in adam when He violated Gods law, thou shall not eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Thats why babies die, for they too were involved in the sin of adam.


There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that teaches that men sinned in Adam. That is simply are reformed teaching, not a Biblical one, so, it does not prove anything.

crawfish
Mar 30th 2010, 11:20 PM
Men were still spiritually separated from God despite the fact there was no law with which to live by. In other words, they were still guilty even though they had no law to sin against.

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 01:56 PM
The cause of death from Adam to Moses was the universal state of all men. The consequence of Adams sin was that all are sinners and all die. There is no mention of a sin offering from Gen 4:7 through Exo 29:14. Men were not responsible for personal sin but under the condemnation of universal sin in Adam. With the law in Moses comes personal responsibility and the imputation of sin mitigated by offering the sin offerings.

Death in the flesh still reigns today. Universal causation. Since Christ men can inherit eternal life through His death on Calvary. Personal responsibility.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Thanks Roger,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 01:58 PM
Paul is making the point that justification is not by the works of the Mosaic Law but by faith in Christ. He states that even though din was in the world and men sinned, these sins were not imputed to them because there was no Law. The effects of sin and death were in the world but God was not counting the sins of men against them at this point, because there was no law to define for men what sin was.

Is there a law now?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2010, 02:01 PM
Men were still spiritually separated from God despite the fact there was no law with which to live by. In other words, they were still guilty even though they had no law to sin against.

Is there a law now?

Lk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Firstfruits

subarctic_guy
Apr 1st 2010, 09:20 AM
just what i see on the face: Adam chose to disobey God, this was sin resulting in death. Later, Moses gave the law. men chose to disobey God. this was sin resulting in death. in between, there was no law or commandment from God to break, and yet death (the product of sin) reigned. During Noah's time the world was full of evil, so it seems that the natural state of fallen man is to do evil -even if it's not in willful rebellion against God -perhaps by violating the laws of nature or the law "written on the heart" or the conscience?

Firstfruits
Apr 1st 2010, 10:19 AM
just what i see on the face: Adam chose to disobey God, this was sin resulting in death. Later, Moses gave the law. men chose to disobey God. this was sin resulting in death. in between, there was no law or commandment from God to break, and yet death (the product of sin) reigned. During Noah's time the world was full of evil, so it seems that the natural state of fallen man is to do evil -even if it's not in willful rebellion against God -perhaps by violating the laws of nature or the law "written on the heart" or the conscience?

Thanks Subartic,

Is there a law now?

Lk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Firstfruits

subarctic_guy
Apr 1st 2010, 11:19 AM
Is there a law now?

I will have to give that some thought. It seems to me that "The Law" was the covenant/contract made w Israel via Moses -the terms of which were broken by Israel. It is obvious that in the new covenant there are commandments, but i am getting the sense it is not a law in the same sense. Sorry if thats incoherent ;)

Firstfruits
Apr 1st 2010, 11:27 AM
I will have to give that some thought. It seems to me that "The Law" was the covenant/contract made w Israel via Moses -the terms of which were broken by Israel. It is obvious that in the new covenant there are commandments, but i am getting the sense it is not a law in the same sense. Sorry if thats incoherent ;)

Thanks, Subartic-guy

I understand and await your reply after your searches.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

subarctic_guy
Apr 1st 2010, 11:59 AM
it may be a while, i am studying much more foundational issues atm. but if i come across anything i will post it (if i remember ;))

Firstfruits
Apr 1st 2010, 12:46 PM
it may be a while, i am studying much more foundational issues atm. but if i come across anything i will post it (if i remember ;))

Thanks you,

God bless!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Apr 1st 2010, 10:08 PM
Is there a law now?

Firstfruits

There is a moral law that has always been but not a Mosaic Law.

Firstfruits
Apr 2nd 2010, 11:12 AM
There is a moral law that has always been but not a Mosaic Law.

What then does it mean that sin is not imputed when there is no law, if there is not a Mosaic law?

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Firsftruits

holyrokker
Apr 2nd 2010, 06:30 PM
Is there a law now?

Firstfruits

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

Firstfruits
Apr 3rd 2010, 01:38 PM
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

So we are no longer under the sentance of death, but have the promise of life through the law of the Spirit, would that be right according to scripture?

Firstfruits