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ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 1st 2010, 02:47 AM
What were the items placed within the Holy Place of the Temple? From what I understand the items consisted of:

- the golden lampstand
- the table and the bread of the Prescence
- the altar of incense

In the Holy of Holies
- the ark of the covenant

However, in Hebrews 9:2-5, the author describes the Holy Place as consisting of
- golden lampstand
- table and bread of Presence

Holy of Holies (Most Holy place)
- altar of incense
- ark of covenant

There is a discrepency as to the location of the altar of incense. Can anyone explain this please?

Thanks.

markedward
Apr 1st 2010, 08:27 AM
The author of Hebrews appears to be describing the Altar of Incense by its functional relationship to the Ark of the Covenant (behind the Veil), not its literal location (outside the Veil). The two objects were inherently connected in the temple rituals, especially in light of the feast of the Day of Atonement, which is stressed in Hebrews 9 (and the beginning of chapter 10). Exodus 40.5 describes the Altar of Incense as "before the Ark of the Testimony" despite their separation by the Veil. Similarly, Leviticus 16.12 describes the Altar of Incense as standing before יהוה, even though it was technically separated from his Presence by the Veil (the Ark was treated as God's throne upon the earth, and hence, his Presence was behind the Veil with the Ark).

Servant89
Apr 1st 2010, 11:28 AM
There are no discrepancies in the Bible. When man was ministering in the Tabernacle of Moses, the high priest did not have access to pray to God liberaly from the Most Holy Place, he had to do it from the holy place and that is why the altar of incense was placed in the holy place. But since Jesus assended on high and sat down at the right hand of God, he is now interseeding for us from the Most Holy PLace. Since the old tabernacle passed away, the new tabernacle in heaven is the one that is active now (Heb 8:13).

Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

The author of Hebrews, the HS, is telling us the truth. The altar of inscense represents the prayer of the saints.

Ps 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Lk 1:10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

And since Jesus is now our high priest, and he is interseeding for us from the Most Holy Place, that is why in heaven, in the true tabernacle, the altar of incense is now in the Most Holy Place. By the way, the curtain that separated the two rooms was removed.

Mt 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Shalom

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 6th 2010, 09:31 AM
Hi Mark or anyone else,
I'm having more problems with Hebrews and hope you can shed some light. It has to do with discrepencies between the OT accounts and the account given in Hebrews.

Heb 9:19:
- the writer mentioned that Moses used the blood of calves and goats. However, in the account in Exo 24 goats were never mentioned. The animals used were stated as oxen

- the writer mentioned water, scarlet wool and hyssop but these were never recorded in Exo 24. From the Exo account it seems like Moses used his hand to throw the blood on the people. The rituals with water, scarlet wool and hyssop seems to be for the ritual cleansing of lepers in Lev 14:6-7 and the animal used there are birds, not calves and goats.

Exo 24 never mentioned anything about Moses using water, scarlet wool and hyssop, so where did the writer get this from? Unless there is some theological meaning to this reference that I'm not getting?

Heb 9:21:
- the writer said Moses then sprinkled blood on the tent and all the vessels used in worship. There seems to be a real problem there because the tent and vessels did not even exist at the time Moses gave the Law, and only came about much later in Exo 40.

Help?

markedward
Apr 6th 2010, 04:43 PM
the writer mentioned that Moses used the blood of calves and goats. However, in the account in Exo 24 goats were never mentioned. The animals used were stated as oxen

- the writer mentioned water, scarlet wool and hyssop but these were never recorded in Exo 24. From the Exo account it seems like Moses used his hand to throw the blood on the people. The rituals with water, scarlet wool and hyssop seems to be for the ritual cleansing of lepers in Lev 14:6-7 and the animal used there are birds, not calves and goats.It appears to me that the author of Hebrews is including some oral tradition (details not found explicitly within Scripture, but not explicitly contradictory) regarding the event from Exodus 24, similar to Paul using oral tradition in naming the magicians from Pharaoh's court. [2 Timothy 3.8]

The theologian John Gill says this:

"With water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop"; neither of these are mentioned in Ex 24:1, but since sprinkling is there said to be used, and blood and water mixed together, and scarlet and hyssop were used in sprinkling, as in sprinkling the leper, and the unclean house, Le 14:5 the apostle justly concludes the use of them here [in Hebrews 9.19].


the writer said Moses then sprinkled blood on the tent and all the vessels used in worship. There seems to be a real problem there because the tent and vessels did not even exist at the time Moses gave the Law, and only came about much later in Exo 40.
Regarding Hebrews 9.21, the same explanation can be given; just because more details are not given to us, does not mean that more things did not happen. The author of Hebrews alludes to Exodus 40.9, where even Josephus (a first-century, non-Christian Jew) agrees with the author of Hebrews regarding the sprinkling of blood. In addition, there's no need to interpret the author of Hebrews as claiming all these events took place on the same day; he is clearly compressing a group of events from history into a single chapter, so that he can discuss their relationship to Jesus Christ.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 7th 2010, 12:57 AM
Hi Mark,
Thanks again. This is a most difficult and perplexing passage.


It appears to me that the author of Hebrews is including some oral tradition (details not found explicitly within Scripture, but not explicitly contradictory) regarding the event from Exodus 24, similar to Paul using oral tradition in naming the magicians from Pharaoh's court. [2 Timothy 3.8]

Were those Jewish oral traditions ever documented and are they still with us today? Would love to look through them if they were ever translated into English.

No disrespect, but to be totally frank, Gill's explaination sounds like specuation at best and is inconclusive I think.


The author of Hebrews alludes to Exodus 40.9, where even Josephus (a first-century, non-Christian Jew) agrees with the author of Hebrews regarding the sprinkling of blood.

Interesting! Do you happen to have Josephus' exact writings on this matter, so I can understand what he said regarding this?


In addition, there's no need to interpret the author of Hebrews as claiming all these events took place on the same day; he is clearly compressing a group of events from history into a single chapter, so that he can discuss their relationship to Jesus Christ.

Yes, that makes sense too.

markedward
Apr 7th 2010, 03:04 AM
Were those Jewish oral traditions ever documented and are they still with us today? Would love to look through them if they were ever translated into English.Some, but not all of them, to my knowledge. They're mulled over in the Talmud (a non-Christian, Jewish document).


No disrespect, but to be totally frank, Gill's explaination sounds like specuation at best and is inconclusive I think.It's speculative, but not implausible. It is certainly within the accordance of the Law, so it is a distinct possibility.


Interesting! Do you happen to have Josephus' exact writings on this matter, so I can understand what he said regarding this?I actually left my copy of the book at my parents' house, and it's much easier to find stuff in than any digital copies (which you can find for free on Google). If I have the time, I'll try to find the passage(s) online.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 7th 2010, 05:33 AM
Thanks again Mark.


I actually left my copy of the book at my parents' house, and it's much easier to find stuff in than any digital copies (which you can find for free on Google). If I have the time, I'll try to find the passage(s) online.


Thanks, would really appreciate that.

markedward
Apr 7th 2010, 06:59 AM
Here you go:

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 3.8.6


Now when Moses had bestowed such honorary presents on the workmen, as it was fit they should receive, who had wrought so well, he offered sacrifices in the open court of the tabernacle, as God commanded him; a bull, a ram, and a kid of the goats, for a sin-offering. Now I shall speak of what we do in our sacred offices in my discourse about sacrifices; and therein shall inform men in what cases Moses bid us offer a whole burnt-offering, and in what cases the law permits us to partake of them as of food. And when Moses had sprinkled Aaron's vestments, himself, and his sons, with the blood of the beasts that were slain, and had purified them with spring waters and ointment, they became God's priests. After this manner did he consecrate them and their garments for seven days together. The same he did to the tabernacle, and the vessels thereto belonging, both with oil first incensed, as I said, and with the blood of bulls and of rams, slain day by day one, according to its kind. But on the eighth day he appointed a feast for the people, and commanded them to offer sacrifice according to their ability. Accordingly they contended one with another, and were ambitious to exceed each other in the sacrifices which they brought, and so fulfilled Moses's injunctions. But as the sacrifices lay upon the altar, a sudden fire was kindled from among them of its own accord, and appeared to the sight like fire from a flash of lightning, and consumed whatsoever was upon the altar.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 8th 2010, 07:47 AM
Thanks Mark. Nice avatar. :D
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