PDA

View Full Version : If there is no free will then why will the lost be cast into the lake of fire?



John146
Apr 8th 2010, 03:16 PM
There are those who have chosen to believe that man does not have free will as far as being responsible to freely choose to believe in Christ or not. Instead, they believe God gives faith in Christ to some and does not give it to the rest. But if that is the case then what exactly would unbelievers be held accountable and responsible for on judgment day?

They wouldn't be held responsible for not choosing to believe in Christ in this case because they wouldn't have even had the ability to do so. So, why exactly would they be held accountable and punished by being cast into the lake of fire on judgment day if they had no choice but to not believe in Christ? I don't see how they would be responsible for anything.

John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We know that the wages of sin is death. Not just physical death, but eternal separation from God, which is the second death (Rev 20:14-15). Ultimately, though, the reason that a person is condemned is for not believing in Christ, as we can see from John 3:18.

So, again, why would people who supposedly have no ability to believe in Christ and/or aren't given faith in Christ be punished for not doing so? How does that make any sense whatsoever? I think it makes far more sense that they will be punished because they had the opportunity to believe in Christ but chose not to do so. In that case man is responsible for not believing rather than God being responsible because He did not give them faith.

Scripture teaches that man will be held accountable for his own behavior.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 20
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rom 14
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

If the lost didn't believe because they had no ability to believe then it seems that they could say to God on judgment day "Lord, you didn't give us faith so that's why we didn't believe.". And it seems that would be a legitimate excuse if that was the case. But instead they will have no excuse because God did give them the opportunity to believe and they chose not to do so.

moonglow
Apr 8th 2010, 03:59 PM
Great post...I agree!

God bless

notuptome
Apr 8th 2010, 04:07 PM
One might do well to take note that no one jumps into the lake of fire of their own free will. They are cast into the fire. The soverignity of God allows man to have a free will but mans free will does not trump Gods soverignity. God is mericiful and not willing that any should perish but rather willing that all should come to repentance. Men who refuse Gods great offer of saving grace do so because they love darkness their deeds being evil. They tread under foot the precious blood of Christ. How shall they escape? It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 2:3 & 10:26-31

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RogerW
Apr 8th 2010, 04:09 PM
There are those who have chosen to believe that man does not have free will as far as being responsible to freely choose to believe in Christ or not. Instead, they believe God gives faith in Christ to some and does not give it to the rest. But if that is the case then what exactly would unbelievers be held accountable and responsible for on judgment day?

They wouldn't be held responsible for not choosing to believe in Christ in this case because they wouldn't have even had the ability to do so. So, why exactly would they be held accountable and punished by being cast into the lake of fire on judgment day if they had no choice but to not believe in Christ? I don't see how they would be responsible for anything.

John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We know that the wages of sin is death. Not just physical death, but eternal separation from God, which is the second death (Rev 20:14-15). Ultimately, though, the reason that a person is condemned is for not believing in Christ, as we can see from John 3:18.

So, again, why would people who supposedly have no ability to believe in Christ and/or aren't given faith in Christ be punished for not doing so? How does that make any sense whatsoever? I think it makes far more sense that they will be punished because they had the opportunity to believe in Christ but chose not to do so. In that case man is responsible for not believing rather than God being responsible because He did not give them faith.

Scripture teaches that man will be held accountable for his own behavior.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 20
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rom 14
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

If the lost didn't believe because they had no ability to believe then it seems that they could say to God on judgment day "Lord, you didn't give us faith so that's why we didn't believe.". And it seems that would be a legitimate excuse if that was the case. But instead they will have no excuse because God did give them the opportunity to believe and they chose not to do so.

Eric, if unsaved, unrepentant man is cast into the LOF because he/she refused to believe, then salvation would not be by grace, it would be by our own goodness. At the end of the age, when fallen, unregenerate man is forever cast into the LOF it will not be because he/she did not make the right choice, it will be because they have no covering for their sins. They are not clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and therefore they must stand for themselves in the Judgment, where they will be condemned.

Man is accountable for their sins! Why? Because they know that God is, and that He requires all glory, honor and praise. Since every man knows God exists, they should all believe Christ, and turn to Him for life. But the simple truth is that ALL men love the darkness rather than the Light of Chirst. So ALL men, without exception, willfully chooses to supress their knowledge of God. There is not a single man, born in Adam, who would not change the glory of God into an image made by corruptible man...unless God, from before the foundation of the world, chooses an elect people for Himself. A people who will give Him all glory, honor and praise that is rightfully His alone! If God had not determined to save some people, then no people would be saved. Salvation is of the LORD ALONE! Not by the will of the fallen flesh, not by the will of fallen man, but by the will of God alone! To God Be All Glory...AMEN!

Many Blessings,
RW

Kahtar
Apr 8th 2010, 04:22 PM
Eric, if unsaved, unrepentant man is cast into the LOF because he/she refused to believe, then salvation would not be by grace, it would be by our own goodness.It sure sounds like you are saying that believing has nothing to do with our salvation.
John 8:24 KJV I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John146
Apr 8th 2010, 04:26 PM
Eric, if unsaved, unrepentant man is cast into the LOF because he/she refused to believe, then salvation would not be by grace, it would be by our own goodness.Show me scripture that teaches that, Roger.


At the end of the age, when fallen, unregenerate man is forever cast into the LOF it will not be because he/she did not make the right choice, it will be because they have no covering for their sins. They are not clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and therefore they must stand for themselves in the Judgment, where they will be condemned. God desires that all people would repent and be saved. With that being the case the only thing we can conclude is that people will be cast into the LOF because they chose not to repent and believe rather than it being a case of God not having given them faith or given them the ability to believe. If they will be cast into the LOF only because they have no covering for their sins then that would mean God alone is responsible for them being cast into the LOF and not them. But scripture says people will be rewarded/judged according to their own works. That means man has responsibility. But you place the responsibility for man not believing in Christ on God instead.


Man is accountable for their sins! Why? Because they know that God is, and that He requires all glory, honor and praise. Since every man knows God exists, they should all believe Christ, and turn to Him for life. But the simple truth is that ALL men love the darkness rather than the Light of Chirst.That's not true. Do you love darkness rather than the light of Christ, Roger? I know I don't. Maybe at one time we did but once we learn of the truth then a choice had to be made, to either love the light or continue to love the darkness.


So ALL men, without exception, willfully chooses to supress their knowledge of God. There is not a single man, born in Adam, who would not change the glory of God into an image made by corruptible man...unless God, from before the foundation of the world, chooses an elect people for Himself. A people who will give Him all glory, honor and praise that is rightfully His alone! If God had not determined to save some people, then no people would be saved. Salvation is of the LORD ALONE! Not by the will of the fallen flesh, not by the will of fallen man, but by the will of God alone! To God Be All Glory...AMEN!Yes, to God be all glory, but may there be no glory for your false doctrine that God alone is responsible for man being cast into the LOF rather than man alone being responsible for that.

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 8th 2010, 04:28 PM
But instead they will have no excuse because God did give them the opportunity to believe and they chose not to do so.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if they have the ability 'not to choose' God.. then that would mean it was thru their own ability that 'they chose God'..

But you see Eric, Scripture tells us differently... Its Jesus Christ Himself that chooses His Own... man doesn't choose God... and no man comes to the Father except by Jesus Christ.. and no man comes to Jesus Christ unless the Father Draws him/her... Salvation is Initiated in Heaven, Eric,

Not the will of the flesh and those in religion..

God chooses.. the Issues and Merits of Salvation belong with Him alone Eric..


not man.. and what you propose and set forth is a man centered gospel and salvation...

We'll never be able to convince you Eric... but you Know God can conivnce you.. and He is ABLE...

subarctic_guy
Apr 8th 2010, 04:42 PM
not my area of expertise, but i think the standard answer is that the fallen nature causes man to freely choose to reject God. I think a lot depends on your concept of freedom. is freedom the ability to pursue all options? if so, God is not free, since he cannot lie. perhaps free will means that we are able to choose what we want - what is in agreement with our nature. if so then God is free, since it is his nature to tell the truth and he chooses to do so. And man would be free to do what he wants, and the fallen nature will only ever want to reject God.

i also agree w the previous posts that point out that it is our own sins that rightfully earn us the punishment. It is our denial if Christ that keeps us in that state (where we belong). God is fully justified in punishing all sinners and is not in any way obligated to save any, but has chosen to do so as an act of mercy.

consider:

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

John146
Apr 8th 2010, 04:48 PM
But instead they will have no excuse because God did give them the opportunity to believe and they chose not to do so.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if they have the ability 'not to choose' God.. then that would mean it was thru their own ability that 'they chose God'..What else can we conclude when scripture teaches that God desires all people to repent (Eze 33:11, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31) and be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6)? Since that is God's desire we have to conclude that the reason people don't believe is not that God didn't want them to and didn't give them faith, but rather that they chose not to believe.


But you see Eric, Scripture tells us differently..[/qutoe]What scripture would that be?

[quote]Its Jesus Christ Himself that chooses His Own... man doesn't choose God... and no man comes to the Father except by Jesus Christ.. and no man comes to Jesus Christ unless the Father Draws him/her... Salvation is Initiated in Heaven, Eric,Yes, it is. God sent His Son from heaven to die for the sins of the whole world, friend. The whole world. Not some of the world. But you take bits and pieces of scripture and draw conclusions from them without looking at the big picture. You say man doesn't choose God. Please tell that to Joshua when you see him one day, okay? He will get a good laugh from that (Joshua 24:15). No man comes to the Father unles the Father draws him. Yes, that's right. But does God just randomly draw some and not the rest? No. He draws people according to His will. What is His will?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So, who does the Father draw to come to a relationship with Christ? Those who believe in Him.

We shouldn't speak of the concept of being drawn to Christ without looking at this verse:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now, I'm sure you would falsely try to say that "all men" actually means "all the elect". That is what people who hold to your doctrine have to do repeatedly to explain scripture away that contradicts your view. The world or the whole world doesn't refer to all people in the world. The phrase "all men" never refers to all people. You have to do quite a bit of scriptural gymnastics to keep your doctrine afloat. But Jesus said that He would draw all people to Him. Did that mean all people would believe in Him and become His people? No. We can see from the parable of the sower that some are drawn to Him but then the riches of the world or the cares of the world make them draw back. Some are drawn to Him and receive the good news with joy at first but then they fall away once tribulation and persecution comes. The gospel sounds good to them, but not if it means they have to give anything up for it including their desires and even their lives.


Not the will of the flesh and those in religion..

God chooses.. the Issues and Merits of Salvation belong with Him alone Eric..If that is the case then why does scripture say that man must humble himself and that man must repent and that man must believe? When the prison keeper asked Paul and Silas what he had to do to be saved why didn't they tell him there was nothing he could do to be saved but that God does it all?


not man.. and what you propose and set forth is a man centered gospel and salvation...What you propose is that man has no responsibility before God and that God punishes people for not believing in Him even though they supposedly have no ability to do so. But scripture does not teach that God is partial or that He punishes people for things they have no control over.


We'll never be able to convince you Eric..That is true. I will not be convinced to believe in false teaching.


but you Know God can conivnce you.. and He is ABLE...God would not try to convince me of false doctrine.

John146
Apr 8th 2010, 05:01 PM
not my area of expertise, but i think the standard answer is that the fallen nature causes man to freely choose to reject God. I think a lot depends on your concept of freedom. is freedom the ability to pursue all options? if so, God is not free, since he cannot lie. perhaps free will means that we are able to choose what we want - what is in agreement with our nature. if so then God is free, since it is his nature to tell the truth and he chooses to do so. And man would be free to do what he wants, and the fallen nature will only ever want to reject God.

i also agree w the previous posts that point out that it is our own sins that rightfully earn us the punishment. It is our denial if Christ that keeps us in that state (where we belong). God is fully justified in punishing all sinners and is not in any way obligated to save any, but has chosen to do so as an act of mercy.

consider:

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.The question this raises is this: Does God arbitrarily have mercy on some and not others or is there a basis for who He has mercy on and who He doesn't?

There are different aspects of God's mercy. There is the aspect where He shows mercy to those who did nothing to deserve it. That would be everyone, IMO. No one did anything to deserve having God send His only Son to die for the sins of the whole world. God did that out of His own grace and mercy and not because He felt that man deserved for Him to have done that.

But there is also the aspect of God's mercy where He gives mercy to people as a reward for their attitudes and behavior towards Him. Here are a few examples of that:

Psalm 33
21For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name.
22Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

Psalm 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Psalm 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

Prov 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Luke 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

So, while no one can tell Him who He should have mercy on, it was His decision to show mercy upon those who hope in Him, fear Him, forsake their sins and call upon Him. There is no basis for thinking that God arbitrarily has mercy on some and not the rest. He desires to have mercy upon all, but requires that they believe.

Romans 11
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Quickened
Apr 8th 2010, 05:51 PM
There are those who have chosen to believe that man does not have free will as far as being responsible to freely choose to believe in Christ or not. Instead, they believe God gives faith in Christ to some and does not give it to the rest.

Hi John! When i was reading your posts somethings popped into my head and i felt the need to dialogue ;)

Actually I think Man has the ability to have "free will" in terms of choosing to be a "christian". There are those who have an intellectual knowledge of God, Jesus and even specific passages/stories/doctrines from scripture but that in and of itself does not save.

I think we here on this forum can agree that there are some people in physical church buildings that come every sunday and wednesday, go through the motions and claim the title Christian. Does that make them so?

Let trek back to Matthew 7 with specific verses in mind


Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


These people themselves must have known the Lord to some extent. They evidently prophesied, cast out demons and did many might works in the name of Christ. They "knew" him intellectually but their heart was far from Him. What immediately comes to mind is Isaiah 29:13


Isa 29:13 And the Lord said: "Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men

When i think of Matthew 7 i see people going through motions yet with no attachment of any saving faith. So what is it that makes some saved and others not? What can we do that Christ's blood be applied to us that our sins may be blotted out?

Those being turned away in Matthew 7 seem earnest to me. They plead to the Lord the things that they did. They knew the Lord yet the Lord did not know them in a saving sense (v23)


But if that is the case then what exactly would unbelievers be held accountable and responsible for on judgment day?

I guess the main thing is.... who really deserves to be saved at all? There isnt one that is just among us. unbelievers are held accountable for sin. God would be just in not saving anyone if He so chose and holding us responsible for our own sin.

What comes to mind here is the Old Testament. When they did sacrifices for sin who exactly were they applied to? There were people outside of Israel in the OT. Were those people covered by those sacrifices made or were they applied to specific people in Israel?

For example Job 1:5 comes to mind. Those burnt offerings were specifically were in case his sons or daughters have committed sin.

What I see is that the same applies to the blood of Christ. Is it applied to all men? I think we see that is not the case. There are those who will not enter the kingdom but no longer is salvation a thing of the Jews. It extends to all peoples as there is no Jew or Greek in Christ.

So to answer your question the actual saving Faith is something that is of God. We can agree that we do nothing to merit it with our works. It is a gift freely given by God to undeserving sinners.

I know you made a longer post but i figured i didnt want to over do it and we could take our time! :) Blessings!

Bladers
Apr 8th 2010, 06:43 PM
Are we now saying that God is willing that MANY should perish?

RogerW
Apr 8th 2010, 07:33 PM
It sure sounds like you are saying that believing has nothing to do with our salvation.
John 8:24 KJV I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Hi Kahtar,

It's not that believing has nothing to do with whether or not we inherit eternal life. Those who inherit eternal life will absolutely believe, and those who do not will die in their sins. But why will they die in their sins? Is it because they refused Christ? Or is it because Christ's atonement does not cover them?

Here's my point...if we say our sins keep us from inheriting eternal life, then no man could have life everlasting, because every single one of us (even after re-birth) continues to sin. But it is not our sins that keep us from inheriting eternal life. We inherit eternal life only when we have the blood of Christ to atone for our sins. Not because we sin, but because we have no way of being reconciled to God apart from Christ. Without Him we do not inherit eternal life because we have no atonement for our sins, so we die in our sins, just as Jo 8:24 shows us. Is not refusal to believe one of many sins? Is not even this sin covered when we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ?

Many Blessings,
RW

Athanasius
Apr 8th 2010, 08:05 PM
Frankly, the "Man is fallen and can freely choose to reject God, but not freely choose to accept him" line of argument seems, imo, intellectually dishonest. If that is the case, then choice has nothing to do with it. If God decrees 'X' to hell and 'Y' to Heaven (even if He only decrees 'Y' to heaven, he is likewise decreeing 'X' to hell), then it seems to me that the entire reason some go to hell is because God wishes to display his "glory" and "power" and whatever else it is one might say God wishes to display. But, what a sadistic God to have to damn people, and then say 'You did not believe in my Son!' According to the view of some, I don't think free will has anything to do with it.

And I suppose those people can really only say, "God likes me and hates you. Na na na na naaa naaaaaaaaaa *stick tongue out". Don't like that? Well, don't hide behind the language of "God doesn't have to save any of us!" "I'm saved entirely by grace, because I'm part of the elect!" Etc. etc. etc. I wonder how many people God had to decree to damn before He was satisfied that his power and glory was sufficiently displayed.

Bladers
Apr 8th 2010, 08:16 PM
Frankly, the "Man is fallen and can freely choose to reject God, but not freely choose to accept him" line of argument seems, imo, intellectually dishonest. If that is the case, then choice has nothing to do with it. If God decrees 'X' to hell and 'Y' to Heaven (even if He only decrees 'Y' to heaven, he is likewise decreeing 'X' to hell), then it seems to me that the entire reason some go to hell is because God wishes to display his "glory" and "power" and whatever else it is one might say God wishes to display. But, what a sadistic God to have to damn people, and then say 'You did not believe in my Son!' According to the view of some, I don't think free will has anything to do with it.

And I suppose those people can really only say, "God likes me and hates you. Na na na na naaa naaaaaaaaaa *stick tongue out". Don't like that? Well, don't hide behind the language of "God doesn't have to save any of us!" "I'm saved entirely by grace, because I'm part of the elect!" Etc. etc. etc. I wonder how many people God had to decree to damn before He was satisfied that his power and glory was sufficiently displayed.

What in the World?
Do you understand what you are saying?
God sends people to hell, and then later damn them to eternal torment in the Lake of fire, BURNING AND IN TORMENT FOR EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER?
Just because he wanted to? and you say, Your proud because your chosen? Chosen for what? What kind of God is that?
Who would want to be with God if they knew that they made Heaven by a Roll of a Dice and their family were Damned because the dice didn't fall on them?
That would sound like an Un-Just and Evil God to me!
That isn't my God, Thank God my Jesus is merciful and full of compassion!

Athanasius
Apr 8th 2010, 08:24 PM
What in the World?
Do you understand what you are saying?
God sends people to hell, and then later damn them to eternal torment in the Lake of fire, BURNING AND IN TORMENT FOR EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER?
Just because he wanted to? and you say, Your proud because your chosen? Chosen for what? What kind of God is that?
Who would want to be with God if they knew that they made Heaven by a Roll of a Dice and their family were Damned because the dice didn't fall on them?
That would sound like an Un-Just and Evil God to me!
That isn't my God, Thank God my Jesus is merciful and full of compassion!

I understood what I'm saying, did you understand that's not my position? The point of my post, is that from a Reformed point of view, human choice really doesn't have much to do with anything.

Butch5
Apr 8th 2010, 10:04 PM
There are those who have chosen to believe that man does not have free will as far as being responsible to freely choose to believe in Christ or not. Instead, they believe God gives faith in Christ to some and does not give it to the rest. But if that is the case then what exactly would unbelievers be held accountable and responsible for on judgment day?

They wouldn't be held responsible for not choosing to believe in Christ in this case because they wouldn't have even had the ability to do so. So, why exactly would they be held accountable and punished by being cast into the lake of fire on judgment day if they had no choice but to not believe in Christ? I don't see how they would be responsible for anything.

John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We know that the wages of sin is death. Not just physical death, but eternal separation from God, which is the second death (Rev 20:14-15). Ultimately, though, the reason that a person is condemned is for not believing in Christ, as we can see from John 3:18.

So, again, why would people who supposedly have no ability to believe in Christ and/or aren't given faith in Christ be punished for not doing so? How does that make any sense whatsoever? I think it makes far more sense that they will be punished because they had the opportunity to believe in Christ but chose not to do so. In that case man is responsible for not believing rather than God being responsible because He did not give them faith.

Scripture teaches that man will be held accountable for his own behavior.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 20
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rom 14
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

If the lost didn't believe because they had no ability to believe then it seems that they could say to God on judgment day "Lord, you didn't give us faith so that's why we didn't believe.". And it seems that would be a legitimate excuse if that was the case. But instead they will have no excuse because God did give them the opportunity to believe and they chose not to do so.

There you go again Eric, being all logical. LOL!

Butch5
Apr 8th 2010, 10:21 PM
Eric, if unsaved, unrepentant man is cast into the LOF because he/she refused to believe, then salvation would not be by grace, it would be by our own goodness. At the end of the age, when fallen, unregenerate man is forever cast into the LOF it will not be because he/she did not make the right choice, it will be because they have no covering for their sins. They are not clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and therefore they must stand for themselves in the Judgment, where they will be condemned.

Man is accountable for their sins! Why? Because they know that God is, and that He requires all glory, honor and praise. Since every man knows God exists, they should all believe Christ, and turn to Him for life. But the simple truth is that ALL men love the darkness rather than the Light of Christ. So ALL men, without exception, willfully chooses to suppress their knowledge of God. There is not a single man, born in Adam, who would not change the glory of God into an image made by corruptible man...unless God, from before the foundation of the world, chooses an elect people for Himself. A people who will give Him all glory, honor and praise that is rightfully His alone! If God had not determined to save some people, then no people would be saved. Salvation is of the LORD ALONE! Not by the will of the fallen flesh, not by the will of fallen man, but by the will of God alone! To God Be All Glory...AMEN!

Many Blessings,
RW

What dance step is that? How can they be required to believe when you say they are not given faith to believe? Roger, don't you see that you argument doesn't even make sense? Man can only choose to go against God, yet he condemned for not choosing what he can't choose? Let me make sure I have the argument correctly. I can tell my child you have a choice, you can flap your arms and fly around the house or you are going to be punished when I come home. So upon my arrival home I guess I have to punish my child for choosing punishment rather than flying around the house. do you not see the absurdity in this reasoning? You guys raise the sovereignty of God above everything else, do you give thought to how you are expressing the character of God in the process?

chad
Apr 8th 2010, 10:24 PM
I actually agree with Roger on what he says regarding this post. The only thing standing in the way of a person is a desision and faith. (When I say faith, i'm not talking about the gift of faith as given as a gift by the holy spirit).

In Romans 1:18-32 + Rom 2:5-16, Paul writes it is mans wickedness (resulting from sin) that will result in their judgement.



Hi Kahtar,

It's not that believing has nothing to do with whether or not we inherit eternal life. Those who inherit eternal life will absolutely believe, and those who do not will die in their sins. But why will they die in their sins? Is it because they refused Christ? Or is it because Christ's atonement does not cover them?

Here's my point...if we say our sins keep us from inheriting eternal life, then no man could have life everlasting, because every single one of us (even after re-birth) continues to sin. But it is not our sins that keep us from inheriting eternal life. We inherit eternal life only when we have the blood of Christ to atone for our sins. Not because we sin, but because we have no way of being reconciled to God apart from Christ. Without Him we do not inherit eternal life because we have no atonement for our sins, so we die in our sins, just as Jo 8:24 shows us. Is not refusal to believe one of many sins? Is not even this sin covered when we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ?

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Apr 8th 2010, 10:36 PM
not my area of expertise, but i think the standard answer is that the fallen nature causes man to freely choose to reject God. I think a lot depends on your concept of freedom. is freedom the ability to pursue all options? if so, God is not free, since he cannot lie. perhaps free will means that we are able to choose what we want - what is in agreement with our nature. if so then God is free, since it is his nature to tell the truth and he chooses to do so. And man would be free to do what he wants, and the fallen nature will only ever want to reject God.

i also agree w the previous posts that point out that it is our own sins that rightfully earn us the punishment. It is our denial if Christ that keeps us in that state (where we belong). God is fully justified in punishing all sinners and is not in any way obligated to save any, but has chosen to do so as an act of mercy.

consider:

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.



I think a lot depends on your concept of freedom. is freedom the ability to pursue all options? if so, God is not free, since he cannot lie.

God is free. Do you understand this to mean God is not capable of lying? I don't believe that is the case, I believe it is not in His nature to lie. If this means that God is not capable then we have some problems with Scripture.


Hebrews 1:1-3 ( KJV )
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


Colossians 2:8-9 ( KJV )
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The writer of Hebrews says that Christ is the "Express Image" of God, and Paul says that in Christ dwells the fullness of Godhood. The writer of Hebrews also says,


Hebrews 2:16-17 ( KJV )
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Christ is the "Express Image" of God, and was made like His brethren is "All Ways." His brethren are very capable of lying. If Christ was man like them in all ways then it seems that he would be capable of lying, and since He is the Express image of God it seems that God would be capable. As I said I believe that is it against His nature but I don't think He is incapable.

markedward
Apr 8th 2010, 11:07 PM
If there is no free will then why will the lost be cast into the lake of fire?

I rarely post something in big letters unless I'm doing it for comedic effect. Here, I am posting in big letters, because Paul's response to your question could not be stated anymore plainly than it was:


Romans 9.18-24:
So then [God] has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


So, why exactly would they be held accountable and punished by being cast into the lake of fire on judgment day if they had no choice but to not believe in Christ?So, I echo Paul's response:

"Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"

Sirus
Apr 9th 2010, 01:22 AM
talk about talking a passage out of context and completely misunderstanding it!

markedward
Apr 9th 2010, 01:39 AM
Talk about useless one-liners that do nothing of contribution for the thread! What was taken out of context? I provided a full paragraph, including the preceding sentence.
Romans 9.11-13: God decided when Jacob and Esau "were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" that "the older will serve the younger". This verse is explicit: God determined before Jacob or Esau had even been born that "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9.14-16: Is it unjust that God determined beforehand that he loved Jacob and hated Esau, before they were even born? No. God is just to display mercy to anyone he chooses. God does not give mercy based "on human will or exertion", but according to his own will.

Romans 9.17: In example, God explicitly told Pharaoh that he had been raised for the specific purpose to be destroyed so that God could show his power to Israel.

Romans 9.18: As it was said before, God "has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills".

Romans 9.19-21: Paul anticipates the question: "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" How can God condemn someone who apparently had no choice? This is the exact same question asked in the OP. And Paul's response is, "Who are you to answer back to God?" Paul gives a clearcut analogy. God is a maker of clay, and we are the clay pots. God makes those who will be redeemed to be redeemed. God makes those who will be destroyed to be destroyed. "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?" God makes certain clay vessels for dishonorable use.

Romans 9.22: God will make known his wrath and power by patiently enduring the "vessels of wrath" that he prepared for destruction.Explain what I took "out of context" and "completely misunderstood". Otherwise, if you will not take the time to explain why you disagree, don't bother saying that you disagree.




The OP asked: So, why exactly would they be held accountable and punished by being cast into the lake of fire on judgment day if they had no choice but to not believe in Christ?

Romans 9.19: Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?
They're the same question. And Paul's response: "Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?" So tell me, what did I take out of context?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 9th 2010, 02:20 AM
Eric, if unsaved, unrepentant man is cast into the LOF because he/she refused to believe, then salvation would not be by grace, it would be by our own goodness. At the end of the age, when fallen, unregenerate man is forever cast into the LOF it will not be because he/she did not make the right choice, it will be because they have no covering for their sins.
Many Blessings,
RW

Yes, Roger, but it still boils down to unbelief. Why did they not have a covering for their sin? Because they chose not to believe.

Sirus
Apr 9th 2010, 02:22 AM
Talk about useless one-liners that do nothing of contribution for the thread! What was taken out of context? I provided a full paragraph, including the preceding sentence.Romans 9.11-13: God decided when Jacob and Esau "were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" that "the older will serve the younger". This verse is explicit: God determined [I]before Jacob or Esau had even been born that "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Explain what I took "out of context" and "completely misunderstood". Otherwise, if you will not take the time to explain why you disagree, don't bother saying that you disagree.

So tell me, what did I take out of context?

It's a quote from Isaiah 45 about king Cyrus being used by God, as was Pharaoh, (who both did what they did of their own will and desire) to accomplish the purpose and will of God to bring Christ in the flesh through Israel (context) Romans 9:3-5. This is the will of God that no man could resist (Rom 9:19). Cyrus allowed Israel to return to their land and rebuild the temple. He is a type of Christ - proving context (Rom 9:3-5) and will (Rom 9:19). It is not about All men arbitrarily by God's will being vessels of one type or another. Does God endure and have longsuffering, with what He causes? How absurd! If He causes it then it is His will purpose and desire and there's nothing to endure with longsuffering.

I suggest you take a trip to the potters house (holistically) ALL scripture, especially Jeremiah 18 and 2Timothy 2, and realize man chooses what type of vessel He will be. Just as Jacob and Esau made their choices as well w/o God arbitrarily forcing some sort of will on them.

Romans 9 mentions a few men but for some reason you apply it to all. Why do you do that? We have the above four and one other example. Rom 9:15. Quoting Exodus 33 where God had mercy on Israel because it was His will that Christ come in the flesh through them (Rom 9:3-5). This is the will of God that no man could resist (Rom 9:19).

Nowhere in Romans (much less anywhere) do we find ALL men being arbitrarily manipulated by God or all men arbitrarily made by God to be anything other than a men with the ability to choose his own eternal destination. In Exodus 32 Israel made their choice but God in sovereignty had mercy and grace (What He did in Christ toward us is no different) for the purpose of bringing Christ in the flesh so the grace of God toward ALL men could be seen. Christ in the flesh through Israel is the will of God that no man could resist (Rom 9:3-5, 19).

Romans 9.11-13 just shows the 'knowing before hand' of God (foreknowledge). "the purpose of God according to election" is Christ coming in the flesh through Jacob (Israel) -v3-5, not Christ through Esau. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 9th 2010, 02:27 AM
not my area of expertise, but i think the standard answer is that the fallen nature causes man to freely choose to reject God. I think a lot depends on your concept of freedom. is freedom the ability to pursue all options? if so, God is not free, since he cannot lie. perhaps free will means that we are able to choose what we want - what is in agreement with our nature. if so then God is free, since it is his nature to tell the truth and he chooses to do so. And man would be free to do what he wants, and the fallen nature will only ever want to reject God.

Interesting....so, then, how far does free will go? Do those who are in bondage to sin (i.e. the unsaved) really possess a completely free will, or does the fact that they are driven to sin by their lusts impede upon this free will? I know that when I sin, in whatver capacity, it nags at my conscience, so perhaps the concept of free will, in regards to consciece, is inherently limited.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 9th 2010, 02:50 AM
I rarely post something in big letters unless I'm doing it for comedic effect. Here, I am posting in big letters, because Paul's response to your question could not be stated anymore plainly than it was:


Romans 9.18-24:
So then [God] has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

So, I echo Paul's response:

"Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"

I agree with this completely!!!!

Sirus
Apr 9th 2010, 03:09 AM
I agree with this completely!!!!follow through the context........

Context set -Christ coming in the flesh through Israel verses 3-5
why -verses 6-8
Jacob (how)(Israel) -verses 11-13 (Esau v22)
Pharaoh (how) -verses 17 and 22
Israel (Moses)(how) -verse 18
Cyrus (how) -verses 19-22
Context established (why) and (Christ came according to His will and purpose) -verses 23-30
Israel rejected Christ -9:31-33 through 10:1-3.........

Romans 9 is not describing an arbitrary God. It is contrary to ALL scripture.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 9th 2010, 03:18 AM
follow through the context........

Context set -Christ coming in the flesh through Israel verses 3-5
why -verses 6-8
Jacob (how)(Israel) -verses 11-13 (Esau v22)
Pharaoh (how) -verses 17 and 22
Israel (Moses)(how) -verse 18
Cyrus (how) -verses 19-22
Context established (why) (Christ came according to His will and purpose) -verses 23-30
Israel rejected Christ -9:31-33 through 10:1-3.........

Romans 9 is not describing an arbitrary God. It is contrary to ALL scripture.

From my understanding, this passage is addressing the subject of God's sovereignity...so are you saying that His sovereignity only applies to the lives of those people listed in the passage?

Sirus
Apr 9th 2010, 03:44 AM
From my understanding, this passage is addressing the subject of God's sovereignity...correct ---to bring Christ in the flesh through Israel!!!!
-He decided according to foreknowledge that Christ would come through Israel (Jacob)
-He used Pharaoh to show His power throughout the earth
-He chose to have mercy and compassion on Israel so Christ would come to have mercy and compassion on all
-He used Cyrus to free Israel to return home and rebuild the temple so prophecies concerning Christ would come to pass

Pretty amazing examples. Does God do those kinds of things in all mens lives?
If you are going to apply the principle to all follow through to all with the examples.
If you have more normal and lesser examples for every day life in scripture I'd be interested in seeing them.


so are you saying that His sovereignity only applies to the lives of those people listed in the passage?they are the only ones His sovereignty is applied to in the passage.
It's not even applied to Jacob.
It is to Pharaoh but according to ALL scripture God only hardens those that harden themsleves.
Cyrus did what he desired accept I doubt it entered his mind to free Israel and rebuild the temple.

I have no problem saying this is possibly how God works at times, when necessary, but holistically this is not how we see God working in scripture in the lives of all men. It's really just that simple. If you can provide scripture that shows otherwise please do.
Can God and does God are two completely different things and questions, and 'can' is questionable (depending on what it is applied to) since God has bound Himself to His word.

The dictionary definitions of sovereignty I agree with. I do not agree with religious definitions of sovereignty.

RogerW
Apr 9th 2010, 02:38 PM
Yes, Roger, but it still boils down to unbelief. Why did they not have a covering for their sin? Because they chose not to believe.

Greetings Welder,

Who in unbelief can choose otherwise? If we have no covering for our sin, then we will indeed die in our sins. Yes, indeed our sins will condemn us. But when we have a covering (Christ's our righteousness) for our sin, then we have (already possess it) eternal life through Christ. Do we have eternal life in Christ because we no longer sin? Or...do we have eternal life in Christ because we are clothed in His righteousness? If we say we die because we sin, then why are those in Christ not also cast into the LOF? Did we stop sinning when we believe? No! We do not die in our sins because Christ our Righteousness atones for all our sins. On the other hand, those cast into the LOF don't have an atonement for their sins, so they die in their sins. Does sinning keep them from inheriting eternal life? Or...do they die in their sins because they have no Redeemer?

It appears to be a minute point...however it matters greatly, because many believe we are saved by what we do or do not do, or by how we live our lives in this world. Some even believe they can become so good that they actually cannot commit sin because they have been born again. Some say things like, "well God doesn't see our sins, He sees us in the righteousness of Christ." If this be true why are we chastened when we sin?

It is not our choosing to believe of our own free will that makes us believe. It is Christ choosing us, while we are yet sinners that assures we will believe. All of Christ, none of fallen man...Salvation is of the LORD!

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Apr 9th 2010, 06:49 PM
I guess the main thing is.... who really deserves to be saved at all? There isnt one that is just among us. unbelievers are held accountable for sin. God would be just in not saving anyone if He so chose and holding us responsible for our own sin.I agree. But that isn't really the issue I'm addressing in this thread. The reality is that some people are saved rather than none, so I'm looking at it from that viewpoint rather than what could have been if God had chosen to not save anyone. God chose to make salvation conditional upon man's response. He did the hard work by sending His Son to die for the sins of the world, but that doesn't mean man is not required to do anything. God chose to make it so that man is required to willingly choose to repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved.


What comes to mind here is the Old Testament. When they did sacrifices for sin who exactly were they applied to? There were people outside of Israel in the OT. Were those people covered by those sacrifices made or were they applied to specific people in Israel?

For example Job 1:5 comes to mind. Those burnt offerings were specifically were in case his sons or daughters have committed sin.

What I see is that the same applies to the blood of Christ.Why do you see it that way? Where is the scripture that says we should see it that way? I'd like to see you back up your claims with scripture.


Is it applied to all men? I think we see that is not the case. There are those who will not enter the kingdom but no longer is salvation a thing of the Jews. It extends to all peoples as there is no Jew or Greek in Christ.

So to answer your question the actual saving Faith is something that is of God.But where does scritpure teach that? You're not going to convince me of anything if you don't back up your opinions with scripture.


We can agree that we do nothing to merit it with our works. It is a gift freely given by God to undeserving sinners.Faith is not the type of work of which salvation does not result. Salvation does not require works of the law or works of righteousness such as helping the poor and such, but it does require faith in Christ.

John146
Apr 9th 2010, 06:57 PM
I rarely post something in big letters unless I'm doing it for comedic effect. Here, I am posting in big letters, because Paul's response to your question could not be stated anymore plainly than it was:


Romans 9.18-24:
So then [God] has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

So, I echo Paul's response:

"Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"Not funny at all, bud. You are taking that passage completely out of context. It has nothing to do with God choosing one person from birth to be saved and the next to be condemned. That concept contradicts a great deal of scripture. Pharaoh was given as an example of a vessel of wrath. Does it say that he was made from birth to be one who God would use to show His wrath and power? No, it does not. Would God have chosen to use Pharaoh in that way if Pharaoh was not already doing evil in His sight before God hardened his heart?

Hey, I can post in really big letters, too.


1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

John146
Apr 9th 2010, 09:10 PM
Talk about useless one-liners that do nothing of contribution for the thread! What was taken out of context? I provided a full paragraph, including the preceding sentence.Romans 9.11-13: God decided when Jacob and Esau "were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" that "the older will serve the younger". This verse is explicit: God determined [I]before Jacob or Esau had even been born that "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."Did you bother to take the time to see what this really means? When it speaks of the older serving the younger is it speaking of the individuals Jacob and Esau? No. The following passage shows the context.

Genesis 25
23And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
24And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.

So, when it says God loved Jacob and hated Esau and that the elder would serve the younger it's actually speaking of the two nations that those two represented, which were Israel and Edom. Before Jacob and Esau were even born God had determined that His chosen nation Israel would descend from Jacob rather than Esau. That's what the text has to do with and not that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born. Do you not realize that if that's what the text was saying it would contradict thousands of other verses of scripture that describe the character of God? Such as the ones that speak of God loving everyone and not wanting anyone to perish but instead wanting everyone to repent and live (Ezekiel 33:11, 2 Peter 3:9)?


God does not give mercy based "on human will or exertion", but according to his own will.In a sense that is true but in another it is not. It depends on the context. There is a sense in which He does give mercy conditionally, as illustrated by verses like these:

Psalm 33:22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

Psalm 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Luke 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.


Romans 9.17: In example, God explicitly told Pharaoh that he had been raised for the specific purpose to be destroyed so that God could show his power to Israel.He was not born for that purpose, he was chosen for that purpose because of the circumstances that resulted partly from choices that he made prior to God hardening his heart for the purpose of showing His wrath and power. No one can question God for having hardened Pharaoh's heart. But when someone like yourself suggests that God hates people before they are born and condemns them to hell before they are born we can certainly question that because that contradicts a great deal of scripture.

John146
Apr 9th 2010, 09:21 PM
Greetings Welder,

Who in unbelief can choose otherwise? If we have no covering for our sin, then we will indeed die in our sins. Yes, indeed our sins will condemn us. But when we have a covering (Christ's our righteousness) for our sin, then we have (already possess it) eternal life through Christ. Do we have eternal life in Christ because we no longer sin? Or...do we have eternal life in Christ because we are clothed in His righteousness? If we say we die because we sin, then why are those in Christ not also cast into the LOF? Did we stop sinning when we believe? No! We do not die in our sins because Christ our Righteousness atones for all our sins.In your view that is what God wants for some, to die in their sins and to not give them any opportunity to have eternal life. But scripture teaches otherwise.

Ezekiel 33
10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

RogerW
Apr 9th 2010, 11:36 PM
In your view that is what God wants for some, to die in their sins and to not give them any opportunity to have eternal life. But scripture teaches otherwise.


Eric, why do you insist on looking at God's Sovereignty from such an incredibly negative perspective? Is it not true that unless God saves some men (which He does) that no man would be saved? Is not salvation of the Lord? It is not that God does not give some an opportunity to have eternal life because He wants them to die in their sins! God forbid such a thought!

What is true is that every man born of Adam would die in their sins IF God does not intervene in the lives of whosoever He wills to save them. Salvation from regeneration to glorification is all of the Lord! You see I don't look at God's Sovereignty in salvation from your negative perspective. I see the awesome love God has for His people. Instead of leaving His predestined elect to die in their sins, God has chosen to save them. In this way God assures He will have a people to love Him, and to give Him the glory, honor and praise that rightfully belongs to Him alone.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, no man can choose to believe while spiritually dead. Therefore God, through the power of the Word and Spirit changes the hearts of whosoever He chooses, making them willing to turn to Him for eternal life.

I can't understand this attitude of anger toward God for not choosing to give eternal life to EVERY human. I don't dwell on the fact that God has chosen not to give eternal life to every man. Instead I bow in humble submission and gratitude that God has chosen a sinner such as I to live with Him forever. I will never understand His choice, but I will be forever praising Him for choosing me. Do I wish He had chosen to give eternal life to every man? That's an irrevelant question, because it does not matter what I wish, but rather what God has determined shall come to pass. After all He is the Potter and we the clay.

Many Blessings,
RW

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 10th 2010, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by John146
In your view that is what God wants for some, to die in their sins and to not give them any opportunity to have eternal life. But scripture teaches otherwise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric..........

what many preach and teach today... is they 'say'... God is Soveriegn... yet He is at the beckoning call of 'man'... man in his rebellion tells God .... He must 'move' according to how he/she perceives the Word of God... God Himself is at the submission of man.. this starting with the Merits and Basis for Genuine Salvation... this Eric is rebellion and its presented in such a subtle way.. that if it wasn't for God and His Wisdom and those He chooses out to be His.. even these would be decieved... but you see Eric.. God won't Share His Glory with anybody else... and when It comes to Salvation.. He will not share that with man.. no matter how much he/she tries to pat himself/herself on his/her back...


His Salvation , His Testimony and Witness.....

and the Merits of them.... .. THEY BELONG TO HIM... period..

those who would preach otherwise.. and very subtily.... I may say.... will be in for a rude awakening... in the End..

and it is very evident today that this is just the case..... this type of preaching and teaching... presented as 'truth'.. while the Truth is deemed a lie and 'evil'...one does not have to go very far to see that in full bloom...

and that Eric, is another gospel.... one which was prophesied would come in these last hours..

the Merits of Salvation.. Belong to God Himself, and its those in rebellion.. who would want to say otherwise... those who present God as being Sovereign and in control.. yet totally at the will of 'man' to get what He needs to get done... presenting a God who is Weak and unable to preserve or even 'save'.. if it were not for the efforts of 'man'... these who are 'wise' in their own eyes..... who thru their actions and use of the Word... shake their fist at Heaven.. and say subtily... 'thats not what your saying in your Word.. and How dare you do that'...

but He is Soveriegn and Still on the Throne... and In Control.. and yes this even Salvation.. along with the Merits of It.. no matter how hard man goes about his business trying to outdo Him .. these in their staunch religious rebellion... shaking their fists at Heaven subtily and saing...' thats not what your Word says... and How Dare you do that...'

and that is so so so so so very evident Today..
---------------------------------------------------------------------

look at this... and let it sink down into your hearts....

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

John146
Apr 12th 2010, 05:52 PM
Eric, why do you insist on looking at God's Sovereignty from such an incredibly negative perspective?I don't. Don't use straw man arguments, Roger. They only make you look desperate. It makes it look as if you have no convincing arguments to support your own case, so you have to resort to misrepresenting the opposing view in order to make yourself look better.


Is it not true that unless God saves some men (which He does) that no man would be saved?Unless He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world so that whosoever believes in Him would not perish and have everlasting life, no one would be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Is not salvation of the Lord?Of course it is. But that doesn't mean the Lord does not require anything of man.

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


It is not that God does not give some an opportunity to have eternal life because He wants them to die in their sins! God forbid such a thought! That is exactly what you teach, whether you acknowledge it or not. You don't believe God cares for the wicked who die in the wickedness, Roger. Are you not willing to acknowledge that?


What is true is that every man born of Adam would die in their sins IF God does not intervene in the lives of whosoever He wills to save them. Salvation from regeneration to glorification is all of the Lord!Where does scripture teach this? Your post is noticeably void of any scriptural support.


You see I don't look at God's Sovereignty in salvation from your negative perspective.I don't have a negative perspective of God's sovereignty at all. It is typical of those who believe false doctrine to get desperate when they see their doctrine refuted and they then resort to straw man arguments in a pathetic attempt to keep their false doctrine afloat.


I see the awesome love God has for His people.I see the awesome love God has for all people. When the wicked refuse to repent, it grieves Him. That would not be the case if He did not care for them as you believe.


Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, no man can choose to believe while spiritually dead.Why would I need to acknowledge something that is never taught in scripture? If it was taught why didn't you supply any supporting scripture to back up your claim?


Therefore God, through the power of the Word and Spirit changes the hearts of whosoever He chooses, making them willing to turn to Him for eternal life. You see God as a Puppet Master who pulls the strings of His mindless, heartless, soulless puppets. Scripture does not portray God's relationship with man that way.


I can't understand this attitude of anger toward God for not choosing to give eternal life to EVERY human.Why do you use straw man arguments, Roger? Not once have I indicated that I believe God should give eternal life to every human. I believe He should give eternal life to all who repent and believe in His Son and that He should not give eternal life to those who refuse to repent and believe in His Son because that is how He determined it to be.


I don't dwell on the fact that God has chosen not to give eternal life to every man.Of course not. As long as you're saved who cares about everyone else, right? Tell me, Roger, has there been one single person who has died in their wickedness that God would rather have turned from their wickedness instead?

John146
Apr 12th 2010, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by John146
In your view that is what God wants for some, to die in their sins and to not give them any opportunity to have eternal life. But scripture teaches otherwise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric..........

what many preach and teach today... is they 'say'... God is Soveriegn... yet He is at the beckoning call of 'man'... man in his rebellion tells God .... He must 'move' according to how he/she perceives the Word of God... God Himself is at the submission of man.. this starting with the Merits and Basis for Genuine Salvation... this Eric is rebellion and its presented in such a subtle way.. that if it wasn't for God and His Wisdom and those He chooses out to be His.. even these would be decieved... but you see Eric.. God won't Share His Glory with anybody else... and when It comes to Salvation.. He will not share that with man.. no matter how much he/she tries to pat himself/herself on his/her back... But you see, TBD, just because man is responsible does not take away from God's sovereignty. Who made man responsible? God did so in His sovereignty. He could have chosen not to save anyone. He could have chosen not to send His Son to die for the sins of the whole world so that whosoever in the world believed in Him would not perish but have eternal life. But instead God, who is not partial as you believe, graciously offers salvation to all people but requires that they humble themselves and submit their wills to Him and acknowledge that they are sinners and acknowledge that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose again from the dead.

So, you see, TBD, you're rightly concerned about the possibility of man trying to take credit for his own salvation, but what you don't realize is that man is saved as a result of acknowledging that he can't save himself. He must surrender himself to God and put his trust in Jesus Christ alone as his Lord and Savior in order to be saved. So, you have no need to be concerned about man trying to take credit for his salvation because no such man who thinks he can save himself by his own righteousness and good works can be saved.


His Salvation , His Testimony and Witness.....

and the Merits of them.... .. THEY BELONG TO HIM... period..

those who would preach otherwise.. and very subtily.... I may say.... will be in for a rude awakening... in the End..

and it is very evident today that this is just the case..... this type of preaching and teaching... presented as 'truth'.. while the Truth is deemed a lie and 'evil'...one does not have to go very far to see that in full bloom...

and that Eric, is another gospel.... one which was prophesied would come in these last hours..What prophecy are you speaking about exactly? If you're speaking of man believing he can be saved by his own righteousness and good works then I agree that is not true. But you take it too far and act as if man has no responsibility which is not taught in scripture. What will man be judged for on the day of judgment is he has no responsibility?


the Merits of Salvation.. Belong to God Himself, and its those in rebellion.. who would want to say otherwise... those who present God as being Sovereign and in control.. yet totally at the will of 'man' to get what He needs to get done... presenting a God who is Weak and unable to preserve or even 'save'.. if it were not for the efforts of 'man'... these who are 'wise' in their own eyes..... who thru their actions and use of the Word... shake their fist at Heaven.. and say subtily... 'thats not what your saying in your Word.. and How dare you do that'...This is a straw man argument. It isn't because God is weak that man is responsible to humble himself, repent and put his faith in Christ in order to be saved. It is because God is holy and impartial and does not just arbitrarily give salvation to some and not the rest.



look at this... and let it sink down into your hearts....

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. See, this is your problem. You draw conclusions from a passage here and a passage there without seeing the big picture. You would try to say that the salvation of the remnant of those who were saved at that time was unconditional. But that is not true. The reason they were saved and the others were not was based on whether or not they had faith.

Romans 11
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Do you see the difference between the remnant who stood by faith and those who didn't and were broken off the good olive tree as a result? Can you see that being grafted into the good olive tree is conditional upon one believing or not? But you don't believe that. You believe salvation is unconditional and that God gives faith to some and not the rest. Paul didn't say "because they were not given faith they were broken off". And he didn't say "if they stop their unbelief as a result of being given faith" shall be grafted in. Having faith in Christ is something that man is responsible to do, as we can see here:

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You say man doesn't have to do anything to be saved. In contrast, scripture says "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved".

Butch5
Apr 12th 2010, 09:48 PM
Eric,

That's all there is, straw men and diversionary tactics. I have been debating Calvinist's and reformed thinkers for years and it is always the same. They even use the same arguments, nothing new, just the same old argument.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 13th 2010, 09:20 AM
Eric, if unsaved, unrepentant man is cast into the LOF because he/she refused to believe, then salvation would not be by grace, it would be by our own goodness.

Scripture refutes your theology Roger.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."


At the end of the age, when fallen, unregenerate man is forever cast into the LOF it will not be because he/she did not make the right choice, it will be because they have no covering for their sins.

Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."



So ALL men, without exception, willfully chooses to supress their knowledge of God.

Scripture proof?


There is not a single man, born in Adam, who would not change the glory of God into an image made by corruptible man...unless God, from before the foundation of the world, chooses an elect people for Himself. A people who will give Him all glory, honor and praise that is rightfully His alone! If God had not determined to save some people, then no people would be saved. Salvation is of the LORD ALONE! Not by the will of the fallen flesh, not by the will of fallen man, but by the will of God alone! To God Be All Glory...AMEN!

You are right in saying salvation is of God alone, for if God did not send Christ to die for our sins we'd all be doomed.

However you're wrong to think that man has no responsibility in the process of salvation. God requires us to believe, Scripture is clear on that.

No disrespect meant, but your theology has really confused you I think, so much so that much of what you write defies simple logic.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 13th 2010, 09:27 AM
not man.. and what you propose and set forth is a man centered gospel and salvation...


On the contrary, BD, I think what is man-centred is propagating a man-made "gospel" based on man-made theology as "truth", and spending so much effort and energy to explain away or totally ignore and reject what Scripture plainly and clearly says about man having a responsibility in the process of salvation.

That, I think, is the ultimate man-centred Gospel.
Where Man's theology > God's written Word.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 13th 2010, 09:33 AM
consider:

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Hi subarctic_guy,
nice avartar. :D

The problem with using that verse is that it is not speaking of salvation or damnation and it never has.

In the OT it is speaking of God's decision to show Moses his glory (or the back of it) although Moses never earned it or did any works that deserved such a privelege.

In Romans, Paul quotes this to first explain God's raising up of Israel as a nation is solely based on God's mercy alone and not by any of their Patriach's righteousness, and secondly to justify God's inclusion of Gentiles into his kingdom also as his act of mercy and compassion and that he has every right to do this.

Never does this verse refer to salvation/damnation.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 13th 2010, 09:44 AM
Hi Kahtar,

It's not that believing has nothing to do with whether or not we inherit eternal life. Those who inherit eternal life will absolutely believe, and those who do not will die in their sins. But why will they die in their sins? Is it because they refused Christ? Or is it because Christ's atonement does not cover them?



Let me see..

Scriptures say: We are saved by faith in Christ.
Your theology says: We are saved by Christ's death on the cross. (Faith not necessary)

Essentially the difference is the Bible says even though Christ died for our sins, we must believed to inherit that salvation. If we do not believe, we will not be saved.

Your theology says no faith is necessary, the death of Christ pays for all sins. Hence he can't possibly have died for everyone or else everyone would be saved.

Faith has always been the requirement for salvation all the way from OT to NT. Men are required to believe whatever God has revealed up to that point. Before the Law, Abraham was justified because he believed God who said he'll promise him uncountable descendents and a promised land. Abraham never lived to see that, but he believed, hence he was justified.

After the Law, Israel was required to believe the system of attonement and right living before God. These acts did not justify them, it was their faith in God's word and hence the carrying out of his commandments that justified them.

After Christ, we are required to believe on Jesus, because God has revealed that Jesus is the only way to the Father, and our only way to salvation. Again it is not our obedience to commandments that save us, but faith. True faith will always show forth in obedience.

Faith has always been the way to salvation. OT or NT.

forum lurker
Apr 13th 2010, 09:48 AM
Predestination doesn't work very well with free will, that's just how it its. You can choose to believe in one of them, or choose to believe that God understands how they work together. I'm not going to pretend I do.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 13th 2010, 10:56 AM
Predestination doesn't work very well with free will, that's just how it its. You can choose to believe in one of them, or choose to believe that God understands how they work together. I'm not going to pretend I do.

Hi,
Actually predestination doesn't contradict free will at all. Because Scripture never teaches that predestination is God predestining people to salvation and damnation.

What Scripture does teach is that:
1) Those who love God and are called by his name are predestined to be like Christ, to resemble Him in holiness and character
2) God predestined us who believe in Christ to adoption as sons (and daughters).
3) God predestined us who are redeemed to be fellow heirs with Christ.

It is the plan above that God predestined. Not individual people to salvation and damnation.

Predestination is only a contradiction with the rest of Scripture when it is wrongly understood.

forum lurker
Apr 13th 2010, 11:42 AM
Hi,
Actually predestination doesn't contradict free will at all. Because Scripture never teaches that predestination is God predestining people to salvation and damnation.

What Scripture does teach is that:
1) Those who love God and are called by his name are predestined to be like Christ, to resemble Him in holiness and character
2) God predestined us who believe in Christ to adoption as sons (and daughters).
3) God predestined us who are redeemed to be fellow heirs with Christ.

It is the plan above that God predestined. Not individual people to salvation and damnation.

Predestination is only a contradiction with the rest of Scripture when it is wrongly understood.

Hi.

Are there any scriptual references to what you are saying? What is your interpretation of Eph. 1:4?

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Blessings

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 13th 2010, 01:28 PM
Hi.

Are there any scriptual references to what you are saying? What is your interpretation of Eph. 1:4?

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Blessings

Sure.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Note clearly from the verse above that what's being predestined is conformity of believers to the image of God's Son.
They are to be conformed to him for what purpose? That Christ Jesus might be the firstborn (Son) among many brothers (saints).

I believe foreknew here means those that God knew in time past, i.e. the saints in the OT, i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Daniel, etc. It also fits perfectly the context as Paul makes a statement, then gives a proof.

This word is used similarly to describe the Jews whom knew Paul from before when he was a Pharisee in Judaism in Acts.

Act 26:5 They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee.

KJV puts it even clearer:
Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Similarly in Peter's epistle:
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

It is clear that Paul does not use this word to mean prescience, as the translated word can carry this meaning, but knowing from time past.

As for Ephesians 1:4:
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Question: What did God chose those of us in him to be like before the foundation of the world?
Answer: He chose for us that are in him (Christ) that we should be holy and blameless before him.

We can see clearly when we put off our theological glasses for awhile that what God actually chose before the foundation of the world, is that we should be holy and blameless before him. The subject clause of the word "chose" is "that we should be holy and blameless before him."

The subject clause of what God "chose" is not "us in him."
"us in him" is just a clarificaiton of whom Paul is referring to.

I would agree with the Calvinists if this verse read thus:
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

However this is not how the verse reads. The verse reads thus:
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

which means something totally different. "Before the foundation of the world" just tells us exactly when God chose this.

This verse can easily be understood differently if you come to it with a theological bent that God predestines people for salvation/damnation. You would then read it as God choosing us in him before the foundation of the world. Period. Fullstop.

But that's not the end of the verse, for the next part of the sentence tells us what it was that God chose before the foundation of the world. He chose that his children should be Holy and blameless before Him.

See what the next verse says:
Eph 1:4b In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

God had planned before the foundation of the world (this is what he predestined) that:
1) Those who are called by his name will be holy and blameless before Him
2) They will be conformed to the image of Christ
3) They are to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ.

It is a beautiful promise that God has given, not what some believe it to mean.

forum lurker
Apr 13th 2010, 05:04 PM
God had planned before the foundation of the world (this is what he predestined) that:
1) Those who are called by his name will be holy and blameless before Him
2) They will be conformed to the image of Christ
3) They are to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ..

I'm sorry, but to me that seems to be rather circular, like saying that those who have feet were predestined to walk and those who have ears were predestined to have a hearing ability. To me it's not clear what that does have to be with predestination, that is merely how a cause has an effect.

I find it difficult to believe that Paul would write something so complicated yet void of information, when you could think he was in a dire need to be as clear as possible to get the early church on the right track.

Sirus
Apr 13th 2010, 11:44 PM
Hi.

Are there any scriptual references to what you are saying? What is your interpretation of Eph. 1:4?

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

BlessingsThyWordIsTruth is correct in Post#46.
That verse says two things not one.
1) Election -"he chose us in him"
2) Predestination -"to be holy and blameless in his sight"

Election and predestination are two different things.

ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 14th 2010, 01:56 AM
I'm sorry, but to me that seems to be rather circular, like saying that those who have feet were predestined to walk and those who have ears were predestined to have a hearing ability. To me it's not clear what that does have to be with predestination, that is merely how a cause has an effect.

I find it difficult to believe that Paul would write something so complicated yet void of information, when you could think he was in a dire need to be as clear as possible to get the early church on the right track.

Well, the decision is yours. It makes perfect sense to me. What is circular reasoning to me is when "all" means "some" and "the whole world" means "some special people only."

On Paul's writings, this is what Scripture itself says:

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

forum lurker
Apr 14th 2010, 04:46 AM
Election and predestination are two different things.

Are the elect not the elect because of predestination?

Sirus
Apr 14th 2010, 04:50 AM
No. You have it backwards. The elect are elect according to God knowing before hand. The elect are predestined to xyz.. Two different things.
If there were no elect there would be no predestination to glorification of the elect. Predestination to glorification exists because there is an elect.

forum lurker
Apr 14th 2010, 05:13 AM
No. You have it backwards. The elect are elect according to God knowing before hand. The elect are predestined to xyz.. Two different things.
If there were no elect there would be no predestination to glorification of the elect. Predestination to glorification exists because there is an elect.

The elect are predestined to do things, but not to exist?

I'm afraid I do have something backwards, because that doesn't make much sense to me.

Sirus
Apr 14th 2010, 05:38 AM
The elect are predestined to do things, but not to exist?
No. The elect exist to.....
You say 'do things', but the works we walk in are not specific -today you will do xyz
They are the works that Jesus did and greater works. Works in general. Gifts of the Spirit. Not clavinistic reformed Sovereign of God -decides everything -works. That's not biblical.

forum lurker
Apr 14th 2010, 10:59 AM
No. The elect exist to.....

..to be holy and blameless? Does that cancel the election?


You say 'do things', but the works we walk in are not specific -today you will do xyz
They are the works that Jesus did and greater works. Works in general. Gifts of the Spirit. Not clavinistic reformed Sovereign of God -decides everything -works. That's not biblical.

Things can mean many kinds of things. ;)

Sirus
Apr 14th 2010, 11:48 PM
..to be holy and blameless?Yes


Does that cancel the election?How could it? Election came first. Could the law 400 years after cancel the promise that came before?
For 4000 years God was accompising His will to bring Christ in the flesh (mine elect -chosen connerstone) through Israel so that His purpose of elction in Christ through Israel (Jacob) would stand, but until that happened the promise could not come.


Things can mean many kinds of things. ;)Can and do are two different things.

forum lurker
Apr 15th 2010, 06:28 AM
How could it?

I don't know. I thought that was what your reply implied.


Can and do are two different things.Not always.