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Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 05:43 AM
I discovered something so awesome, so supremely awesome, something that is full of hope, energy, and possibilities, something that has no limitations and has no bounds. It is this: God has given us freedom in Christ, a freedom where we as believers are free to pursue godly goals that glorify God and reach out to others. Yeah, it sounds obvious, right, but there's so much to this beneath the surface. Let me explain.

Every conceivable thing that we aspire to do, from raising our arm to reach for a pencil to working towards a Ph.D, these are all things called goals. Goals can be physical ones like these, and they can also be mental, like changing a personality flaw. We all have goals, and we all work for some type of goal, big and small. But what's all this I hear about God having some "specific" plan for us? How specific is this? You see, I keep hearing from people that I am supposed to make sure God approves a specific job or goal I pursue, making sure that I do something that is hidden in his will somewhere, and if I don't find it, I'm getting second-best. These people say these things, but where's the boundary? How important does the goal have to be where I'm going to have to ask for this divine guidance? God doesn't care what color toothbrush I buy at Jewel, so why would he care which job I take or which car I buy, as long as all of these satisfy the requirements of following Christ and not sinning?

This whole idea of God's specific will is erroneous to say the least. Many people fall prey to this belief, living a limited life inside a closed box, inside these make-believe closed doors people are putting in themselves, and giving God the credit for creating obstacles in their path.

It is also a very bad idea to follow this "voice" or stirring or whatever you call it inside of you. People who say they "hear" things from God inside of them assign divine authority to their own thoughts, and that is dangerous. Everything that God has to say to us is already said in the Bible.

I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. I realized that I can do WHATEVER I want to in this life within the Bible's bounds. ANYTHING. I can pursue whatever job I would enjoy doing, I can pursue anything I want to, and nothing can stop me. I will definitely have obstacles, but that's okay because I know the truth. I don't care if I fail 1000 times for something, that goal, that dream is mine because I'm pursuing it and not giving up.

I have never been braver in my life. I'm approaching strangers, both men and women :) and talking to them like good friends. I'm standing up for myself at work; I'm thinking for myself, I've killed my anxiety problems I used to have. ALL because I asked God for help and actually taking the initiative to do it.

So my point is, there is no such thing as a specific will for our lives. We have freedom to pursue our interests, and God is not going to punish us if we pick school A instead of school B and so on. I hope a lot of people read this and understand the truth, and gain some confidence, not living lives trapped inside a cage because they're araid of what's outside of it.

Vhayes
Apr 9th 2010, 05:49 AM
It was for freedom that Christ set you free!

God made us as He did with our likes and our dislikes. He gave us our passions for a reason - for His glory.

markedward
Apr 9th 2010, 06:44 AM
It's unfortunate that this is posted in Bible Chat, since you didn't use any Scripture to support your view. Whether you're right or wrong... you should at least be trying to use Scripture to validate what you're saying. Since you didn't do that, it's difficult to properly Scripturally review what you're claiming.

Athanasius
Apr 9th 2010, 09:46 AM
Man, a whole bible filled with God's specific will, and apparently it doesn't exist! Who would have thought!

Nomad
Apr 9th 2010, 11:16 AM
This whole idea of God's specific will is erroneous to say the least.

Biblically speaking that's not true. Here are a few examples for your consideration.

Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Pro 20:24 A man's steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way?

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.

Phi 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Phi 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 11:28 AM
This whole idea of God's specific will is erroneous to say the least. Many people fall prey to this belief, living a limited life inside a closed box, inside these make-believe closed doors people are putting in themselves, and giving God the credit for creating obstacles in their path. Even Jesus is acting according to God 'the Father's' will and this is just a tiny bit of scripture. Jesus is our example for all we deal with in life. All scripture is NKJV.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Also, this scripture:

Colossians 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

A quick check of the OT:

Psalms 143:10 Teach me to do Your will,
For You are my God;
Your Spirit is good.
Lead me in the land of uprightness.

Here's an interesting scripture:

1 Peter 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 02:15 PM
I know that God sometimes did specify what he wanted some people to do in the Bible, but those were different. He told them directly what to do, like Noah, Jonah, Jesus, Moses, and a bunch of others. I'm saying that in today's day and age it's very rare that God actually directly tells what to do, like go to this place and be a missionary there.

I didn't say God doesn't have a will in general; what I meant was that we don't need to seek divine revelation into everything in our lives, as long as we are within bounds of the Bible. Life is not a game of chess with God waiting to crush you every time you make the wrong move.

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 9th 2010, 02:31 PM
I discovered something so awesome, so supremely awesome, something that is full of hope, energy, and possibilities, something that has no limitations and has no bounds. It is this: God has given us freedom in Christ, a freedom where we as believers are free to pursue godly goals that glorify God and reach out to others. Yeah, it sounds obvious, right, but there's so much to this beneath the surface. Let me explain.

Every conceivable thing that we aspire to do, from raising our arm to reach for a pencil to working towards a Ph.D, these are all things called goals. Goals can be physical ones like these, and they can also be mental, like changing a personality flaw. We all have goals, and we all work for some type of goal, big and small. But what's all this I hear about God having some "specific" plan for us? How specific is this? You see, I keep hearing from people that I am supposed to make sure God approves a specific job or goal I pursue, making sure that I do something that is hidden in his will somewhere, and if I don't find it, I'm getting second-best. These people say these things, but where's the boundary? How important does the goal have to be where I'm going to have to ask for this divine guidance? God doesn't care what color toothbrush I buy at Jewel, so why would he care which job I take or which car I buy, as long as all of these satisfy the requirements of following Christ and not sinning?

This whole idea of God's specific will is erroneous to say the least. Many people fall prey to this belief, living a limited life inside a closed box, inside these make-believe closed doors people are putting in themselves, and giving God the credit for creating obstacles in their path.

It is also a very bad idea to follow this "voice" or stirring or whatever you call it inside of you. People who say they "hear" things from God inside of them assign divine authority to their own thoughts, and that is dangerous. Everything that God has to say to us is already said in the Bible.

I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. I realized that I can do WHATEVER I want to in this life within the Bible's bounds. ANYTHING. I can pursue whatever job I would enjoy doing, I can pursue anything I want to, and nothing can stop me. I will definitely have obstacles, but that's okay because I know the truth. I don't care if I fail 1000 times for something, that goal, that dream is mine because I'm pursuing it and not giving up.

I have never been braver in my life. I'm approaching strangers, both men and women :) and talking to them like good friends. I'm standing up for myself at work; I'm thinking for myself, I've killed my anxiety problems I used to have. ALL because I asked God for help and actually taking the initiative to do it.

So my point is, there is no such thing as a specific will for our lives. We have freedom to pursue our interests, and God is not going to punish us if we pick school A instead of school B and so on. I hope a lot of people read this and understand the truth, and gain some confidence, not living lives trapped inside a cage because they're araid of what's outside of it.
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Welll I'll STRONGLY DISAGREE with you on your post... as His Word tells us.. for each of His Children..

thy Word is a 'lamp' unto my feet, and 'light' unto my path..

these are the Words of the Psalmist.. Divinely Inspired... by the Holy Ghost.. as David was moved to write..

look at that.. His Word is a 'lamp' unto my Feet, and 'light' unto my PATH...

if there was ever a verse that told us about God's Revelation thru His Word as unto our path and walk with Him... with Him leading and directing us into His Will for our lives... its right there in black and white...

and your 'claim' that is no such thing as a specific will for our lives.. I beileve is totally erroneous and false...

His Word to me.. is what directs me into His will for my Life.. His Word is what I cling to when tried and tested... His Promises... thru His Word... this according to what He has set forward and in motion for the 'specific' will for my life.. and not only mine.. but each of His Children...

Once again I STRONGLY DISAGREE with your post and attitude.. what you state and 'claim'.. is not true....

and thats my .02 for the day..

Vhayes
Apr 9th 2010, 02:34 PM
I think I understand what the Original Poster is saying and I agree.

God wants us to seek His will for us because His will is always what is best. But He certainly doen't want us to view Him as the harsh disciplinarian who stands by and lets us make choices only to beat us when we make mistakes. Some people are terrified of making "wrong' choices when God has actually given us the freedom to MAKE choices.

God KNOWS what we will do before we do it. All the provisions have been made.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 02:40 PM
I know that God sometimes did specify what he wanted some people to do in the Bible, but those were different. He told them directly what to do, like Noah, Jonah, Jesus, Moses, and a bunch of others. I'm saying that in today's day and age it's very rare that God actually directly tells what to do, like go to this place and be a missionary there.

Actually you got it wrong... today it's very rare that there are servants who will actually "hear" what God directly tells them what to do.

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 03:01 PM
So people who don't "hear" from God are living the wrong way, even though they are obeying the Bible? GOD'S WILL IS NOT FIXED.
So what are some of you people going to tell an uneducated poor guy who's struggling to find a well-paying job that he likes? That these closed doors are God's way of telling him to stop trying?
What are some of you going to tell somebody who is shy on stage but wants to become a speaker? That these are "providential" circumstances and that this kid should give up and move on to something else?

This is God's will: is this goal/activity going to honor God?

That's it; it's that simple. Of course there will be times when God does intervene and directly tell somebody what to do, but rarely so.


BTW everybody, read this

http://searchwarp.com/swa390501.htm

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 03:08 PM
What he's getting at is the never ending seeking for God's will in every situation... as if God has a play-by-play plan for your life but you have to figure it out like some kind of 100x100 rubic's cube.
- What is God's will that I eat for breakfast this morning: an apple or a peanut butter sandwhich?
- If God wants me to eat cereal, what is his specific will for how far I tilt the cereal box?
- What is God's will that I wear today for work?
- Does God will for me to use the GPS system in my car, or navigate fro memory?
- What is God's will for which pant leg I put on first?
- What is God's will for the structure of the sentence I'm about to write?
- What is God's will for what time I take lunch today?
- Does God want me to work on Project X or Project Y at work today?

He's talking about the freedom we have to make decisions for ourselves, rather than looking for that big divine neon sign arrow to show us exactly what to do in every situation, and stressing out about not knowing "God's plan for breakfast".

RogerW
Apr 9th 2010, 03:09 PM
I know that God sometimes did specify what he wanted some people to do in the Bible, but those were different. He told them directly what to do, like Noah, Jonah, Jesus, Moses, and a bunch of others. I'm saying that in today's day and age it's very rare that God actually directly tells what to do, like go to this place and be a missionary there.

I didn't say God doesn't have a will in general; what I meant was that we don't need to seek divine revelation into everything in our lives, as long as we are within bounds of the Bible. Life is not a game of chess with God waiting to crush you every time you make the wrong move.

Greetings Trance,

I too think I understand what you are saying. The will of God for every believer is that we love and glorify Him and enjoy Him forever! This is what our pursuit should be with our whole lives, mind, heart & soul. When we are living our lives in the pursuit of God's glory we will do this no matter what choices we make. So even our bad choices, which have consquences in this life, can be used for the glory of God. So I agree, we should not say we cannot do this or that until God shows us His will for us. His will for us is unchanging no matter what choice we make. This is the will of God for you:

Joh*6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh*6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Many Blessings,
RW

Bladers
Apr 9th 2010, 03:30 PM
So people who don't "hear" from God are living the wrong way, even though they are obeying the Bible? GOD'S WILL IS NOT FIXED.
So what are some of you people going to tell an uneducated poor guy who's struggling to find a well-paying job that he likes? That these closed doors are God's way of telling him to stop trying?
What are some of you going to tell somebody who is shy on stage but wants to become a speaker? That these are "providential" circumstances and that this kid should give up and move on to something else?

This is God's will: is this goal/activity going to honor God?

That's it; it's that simple. Of course there will be times when God does intervene and directly tell somebody what to do, but rarely so.


BTW everybody, read this

http://searchwarp.com/swa390501.htm

Do You Want God's Will For Your Life? Do You Want To Know Your Purpose?
Can I Shock You?IN CHRIST, NO ONE HAS ANY WILL OF THEIR OWN!
That is right.

The Bible Says: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)

You have no Purpose, You are Called to Fulfill God's Purpose!

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 03:33 PM
Do You Want God's Will For Your Life? Do You Want To Know Your Purpose
Can I Shock You? YOU HAVE NO WILL!
That is right.

The Bible Says: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)

So what is God's will for which pant leg I step into first?

Vhayes
Apr 9th 2010, 03:35 PM
Should I paint my bedroom green or yellow?

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 03:35 PM
Do You Want God's Will For Your Life? Do You Want To Know Your Purpose
Can I Shock You? YOU HAVE NO WILL!
That is right.

The Bible Says: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)
You have no Purpose, You are Called to Fulfill God's Purpose!

what do you mean I have no will? God gave us a free will and we are not robots.

Bladers
Apr 9th 2010, 03:37 PM
So what is God's will for which pant leg I step into first?
God's Will is for you to put clothes on before you leave the house... :lol:
Tell me, Did Jesus say... I wanted to wear blue sandles today. But Lord, Not my will. Thy will be done.

God's Will rest in his purpose for your life. Not Purpose on what clothes you should wear.
Thats not a purpose!

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 03:38 PM
God's Will is for you to put clothes on before you leave the house... :lol:

So is it my choice which pant leg I put on first?

Bladers
Apr 9th 2010, 03:41 PM
So is it my choice which pant leg I put on first?

I repeat, Did Jesus say: "Father, I wanted to wear blue sandles today. But Lord, Not my will but Thine will be done."

God's Will rest in his purpose for your life. Not Purpose on what clothes you should wear. that is not your life!

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 03:43 PM
I repeat, Did Jesus say: "Father, I wanted to wear blue sandles today. But Lord, Not my will but Thine will be done."

God's Will rest in his purpose for your life. Not Purpose on what clothes you should wear. that is not your life!

But that's not what you stated. You stated that people have NO WILL
If that's not what you mean, then you shouldn't say something that comprehensive!

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 03:47 PM
I think what Blades is saying is that when we are in Christ, the desires, preferences, tastes and all that stuff are placed inside us from God, and that becomes God's will. It's a union of a person's spirit with God's spirit.

Bladers
Apr 9th 2010, 03:48 PM
But that's not what you stated. You stated that people have NO WILL
If that's not what you mean, then you shouldn't say something that comprehensive!

Well, I would think that the average person in here would have some biblical foundation to understand that when the bible talks about "will".
It refers to your purpose and destiny.

I don't think anyone in here said. Did he meant i need to check if God wanted be to use a black or blue pen.

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 03:56 PM
I think what Blades is saying is that when we are in Christ, the desires, preferences, tastes and all that stuff are placed inside us from God, and that becomes God's will. It's a union of a person's spirit with God's spirit.

Well, I have no idea what that means other than it sounds nice. However, I know for a fact that whatever part of me that "drives"... the conscious, thinking, feeling, decision making entity I call "me" makes all my decisions day in day out. This tells me that I have will and that I excercise it daily. The idea that we have "no will" is preposterous.

At best, I hope that my will aligns with God's will when it comes to two things.
1) Not doing the wrong thing
2) Doing right things

But ultimately, outside of those two areas, the decisions I make in my life are my own. What projects I work on at work, the kinds of food I eat and the exercise I get, how I deal with adversity, etc.

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 03:57 PM
I don't think anyone in here said. Did he meant i need to check if God wanted be to use a black or blue pen.

If you had read any of Trance's previous threads, you'd know that it was very close to this indeed.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 9th 2010, 04:02 PM
I think what Blades is saying is that when we are in Christ, the desires, preferences, tastes and all that stuff are placed inside us from God, and that becomes God's will. It's a union of a person's spirit with God's spirit.

Well, the title of the thread certainly caught my attention...but I can find myself somewhat in what you are saying here. I believe there is a time when God tells us exactly what to do in specific circumstances and in those cases, it is a sin to disobey God. In most cases, I believe God has gives us His Spirit to guide and lead us with His still small voice. I find often when I want to go a certain direction, I have a deep inner peace (or lack thereof) that tells me what I am doing is 'okay' (or definitely not okay). Understanding and living in the Spirit is something that takes time to learn though.

So does God have a fixed will? Sometimes, definitely. Or perhaps we should say that in some cases He speaks His will very clearly, while in other cases He speaks through the peace we have or lack when we walk in the Spirit. We just need to be sensitive to the Spirit and remember that it's not about us, our will, our ambitions, but about God, His will, and His ambition. Within the right context, that doesn't lead to passiveness but to active obedience in the will of God.

BroRog
Apr 9th 2010, 04:04 PM
I discovered something so awesome, so supremely awesome, something that is full of hope, energy, and possibilities, something that has no limitations and has no bounds. It is this: God has given us freedom in Christ, a freedom where we as believers are free to pursue godly goals that glorify God and reach out to others. Yeah, it sounds obvious, right, but there's so much to this beneath the surface. Let me explain.

Every conceivable thing that we aspire to do, from raising our arm to reach for a pencil to working towards a Ph.D, these are all things called goals. Goals can be physical ones like these, and they can also be mental, like changing a personality flaw. We all have goals, and we all work for some type of goal, big and small. But what's all this I hear about God having some "specific" plan for us? How specific is this? You see, I keep hearing from people that I am supposed to make sure God approves a specific job or goal I pursue, making sure that I do something that is hidden in his will somewhere, and if I don't find it, I'm getting second-best. These people say these things, but where's the boundary? How important does the goal have to be where I'm going to have to ask for this divine guidance? God doesn't care what color toothbrush I buy at Jewel, so why would he care which job I take or which car I buy, as long as all of these satisfy the requirements of following Christ and not sinning?

This whole idea of God's specific will is erroneous to say the least. Many people fall prey to this belief, living a limited life inside a closed box, inside these make-believe closed doors people are putting in themselves, and giving God the credit for creating obstacles in their path.

It is also a very bad idea to follow this "voice" or stirring or whatever you call it inside of you. People who say they "hear" things from God inside of them assign divine authority to their own thoughts, and that is dangerous. Everything that God has to say to us is already said in the Bible.

I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. I realized that I can do WHATEVER I want to in this life within the Bible's bounds. ANYTHING. I can pursue whatever job I would enjoy doing, I can pursue anything I want to, and nothing can stop me. I will definitely have obstacles, but that's okay because I know the truth. I don't care if I fail 1000 times for something, that goal, that dream is mine because I'm pursuing it and not giving up.

I have never been braver in my life. I'm approaching strangers, both men and women :) and talking to them like good friends. I'm standing up for myself at work; I'm thinking for myself, I've killed my anxiety problems I used to have. ALL because I asked God for help and actually taking the initiative to do it.

So my point is, there is no such thing as a specific will for our lives. We have freedom to pursue our interests, and God is not going to punish us if we pick school A instead of school B and so on. I hope a lot of people read this and understand the truth, and gain some confidence, not living lives trapped inside a cage because they're araid of what's outside of it.Hi Trance. I think this is a good post and gives us all something to think about. Others have asked for scripture and so I will help out by providing some. Let's look at the teaching of John the Baptist. John's mission was to prepare the hearts and minds of the people for the coming messiah, exhorting his kinsmen to repent.



And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins . . .

Once the crowds got baptized they turned to John and asked, "So what do we do now?" Many of us have that same question after we come to belief. "Okay, now that I have had this conversion experience and have decided to live a new life, what's the rest of my life going to look like?"



And the crowds were questioning him, saying, "Then what shall we do?" And he would answer and say to them, "The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise." And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Collect no more than what you have been ordered to." Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, "And what about us, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages."

John is saying: Look, you don't need to change jobs just because you became a believer. What you need to do is be honest, loyal, and fair in the job you currently have. A repentant man will act in accordance with his repentance, but this doesn't mean you have to change jobs. The fruits of repentance will be evident in whatever job you have.

Paul the Apostle makes a similar point.



Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called. Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy. I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 1Cor. 7:20-27.

When we first become Christians our impulse is to change our life in drastic ways. While I don't think Paul is saying that we can't improve ourselves or change jobs, he is strongly suggesting that changing jobs or marital status doesn't make us more holy. At the time of his writing, he strongly suggests that everyone remain in the occupation or marital status in which they were called. If you were a plumber when you got saved, don't quit your job to become a minister or something like that. If you are married, don't leave your wife to live in a monastery.

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2010, 04:13 PM
I think I understand what the Original Poster is saying and I agree.

God wants us to seek His will for us because His will is always what is best. But He certainly doen't want us to view Him as the harsh disciplinarian who stands by and lets us make choices only to beat us when we make mistakes. Some people are terrified of making "wrong' choices when God has actually given us the freedom to MAKE choices.

God KNOWS what we will do before we do it. All the provisions have been made.

This is not at all what I took away from the OP. The OP is not just talking about legalism or some fear of God striking His people down. The OP is basically saying that God doesn't speak or give direction anymore, and it is only through the bible that we discern God's will. The OP is clearly stating that God doesn't give anyone a specific will or plan . . . and that couldn't be more false. In fact, it is borderline heretic. I honestly do not see how anyone could read the Word of God and come away with the opinion that God doesn't lead or direct that path of those who truly in their heart seek His will.

Bladers
Apr 9th 2010, 04:15 PM
I think what Blades is saying is that when we are in Christ, the desires, preferences, tastes and all that stuff are placed inside us from God, and that becomes God's will. It's a union of a person's spirit with God's spirit.

Well, This is what i believe.
I believe when a child is born, A Divine Plan for his purpose in life in glorifying God is already created by God for him.
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1)

But Satan also comes and creates a satanic plan for the child's life too.
The Scripture States : "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:" (Luke 22:31)
And Until that person get's saved, Satan's plan would be active in his life.
But when the person becomes saved, Satan's plan is canceled and God's plan and purpose is established in the Person's Life.

That is why that scripture says: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
Now, In God's Plan. God had already created in that person with the desire for his purpose when he was born. But It's now up to the person with his own free will to follow it.
This why the Bible says: "The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way." (Psalm 37:23)

Job said in Chapter 33, "God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not, he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword."

If God allowed us to fulfill our own purpose, We would end up in the pit and perish by the sword. Because the Devil is always lurking around, looking for leg room in our lives.
But thank God he withdraws us from our purpose!

John 18:37 "Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth."

Jesus Had A Divine Purpose!

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 04:20 PM
So does God have a fixed will? Sometimes, definitely. Or perhaps we should say that in some cases He speaks His will very clearly, while in other cases He speaks through the peace we have or lack when we walk in the Spirit. We just need to be sensitive to the Spirit and remember that it's not about us, our will, our ambitions, but about God, His will, and His ambition. Within the right context, that doesn't lead to passiveness but to active obedience in the will of God.

Good point, but God's will isn't hidden where we have to make sure everything is completely silent where we have to hear God's supposed teeny tiny voice. If God wants to speak to us, we will DEFINITELY know he is speaking to us. He is and all-powerful God, so why would he try to mask his speaking to us in a quiet voice?

So if God's will is fixed, that means that if I pick the "wrong" career or relationship then I'm making a mistake. Frankly, that is a destructive belief that needs to be expelled from the church. There is no wrong choice as long as we are obeying God's word. You make the assumption that our ambition and God's ambition are always in coflict, that God wants us to to pick a career the he wants, not what we want. God wants us to enjoy life on earth and use our talents for his glory, but Adam and Eve screwed it up for all of us.

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 9th 2010, 04:24 PM
If God's Will is NOT FIXED... then How did Christ get to Calvary? was it by chance or 'luck' as some would say? No His Will is FIXED...

and to prove that....

God's Will was Fixed from the foundation of the World... Jesus was born to die at Calvary... this Jesus, God manifest in the flesh...

and being this Will of God the Father.... was FIXED.. it did come to pass..

and as Christ set His face to go to Jerusalem to fulfill the Father's Will.. to die on a bloody Tree.. you had Peter come along used by satan.. to try to trip Him up.. saying we cant let you do this LORD... and you know the response of Jesus.. its in the Word...

the 'reason' satan used Peter to come at Jesus.. WAS BECAUSE God's Will was FIXED... and that the tempter tried to THWART the FIXED WILL OF GOD... but he failed..

to say that God's Will is not fixed is false... by promoting this. you leave the door open for man to but in a feeble attempt to control 'God'... and man eventually tells God... 'I" control you... this sound famaliar from a certain created being who wants to be like God or as God..???

man tells God I control you.. leading to the belief system.. and promotion..

'hey, I can become like God or as God'....... and this is the most subtle form of diabolic rebellion... this the same 'lie' that was presented in the Garden...

God's Will is Fixed... period... for this planet, for the future of the wicked and the Righteous, and the angels along with their leader who followed them in the Insurrection at the Very Beginning..

and its all REVEALED... get this.. In His Word.. the Word of God... Both the Written Word.. and the Living Word.. He that was once physically dead.. yet liveth forevermore.... this Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 04:27 PM
This is not at all what I took away from the OP. The OP is not just talking about legalism or some fear of God striking His people down. The OP is basically saying that God doesn't speak or give direction anymore, and it is only through the bible that we discern God's will. The OP is clearly stating that God doesn't give anyone a specific will or plan . . . and that couldn't be more false. In fact, it is borderline heretic. I honestly do not see how anyone could read the Word of God and come away with the opinion that God doesn't lead or direct that path of those who truly in their heart seek His will.

I never said God doesn't give direction to people. I know that "in a man's heart he plans his course, but the Lord guides his steps." (Proverbs 16:9)

I said God doesn't have a fixed will that if we miss the mark then we'll be sinning. So you think that if God's plan for a guy is to be an accountant, but he wants to be an architect instead, then he will be sinning?

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 04:30 PM
This is not at all what I took away from the OP. The OP is not just talking about legalism or some fear of God striking His people down. The OP is basically saying that God doesn't speak or give direction anymore, and it is only through the bible that we discern God's will. The OP is clearly stating that God doesn't give anyone a specific will or plan . . . and that couldn't be more false. In fact, it is borderline heretic. I honestly do not see how anyone could read the Word of God and come away with the opinion that God doesn't lead or direct that path of those who truly in their heart seek His will.Your post brings up a quick testimony. Our worship team practices on Friday nights. We usually discussed the color for Sunday and then we'd all be in unity concerning the color of the clothes we'd wear. We did this for a short period of time and then decided to instead just seek God's will for what to wear. When all members of the team do this (pray individually and seek His will), the color coordination consistantly matches even though we don't discuss what we're going to wear anymore.

BroRog
Apr 9th 2010, 04:31 PM
This is not at all what I took away from the OP. The OP is not just talking about legalism or some fear of God striking His people down. The OP is basically saying that God doesn't speak or give direction anymore, and it is only through the bible that we discern God's will. The OP is clearly stating that God doesn't give anyone a specific will or plan . . . and that couldn't be more false. In fact, it is borderline heretic. I honestly do not see how anyone could read the Word of God and come away with the opinion that God doesn't lead or direct that path of those who truly in their heart seek His will.I could be wrong, but I didn't take the OP that way. I agree with you that the Bible teaches us that God will direct our paths. The question is: what kind of direction are we getting from God? I don't see any evidence that God will tell us what kind of job to take, who to marry, or what university to attend. Rather, his direction involves what kind of person to be. Be a loyal, fair, kind, generous, faithful person in whatever occupation, or university you choose.

To my ears, the OP addressed a real disease of the psyche we find in our society in which many folks find themselves with too many choices, and becoming almost paralyzed at the thought of not being sure if we have made the best choice. Many folks suffer anxiety and anguish over the possibility that they might make the wrong choice, or that a better choice is out there. I have often wondered whether the Christian culture is selling a solution to this problem by offering people "God's" decision, taking the decision out of our hands. But I suspect that if we all lived like that, none of us would learn wisdom or grow up to maturity. How will we ever learn if God makes all of our decisions for us? How will we learn responsibility, or wisdom?

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 9th 2010, 04:35 PM
Good point, but God's will isn't hidden where we have to make sure everything is completely silent where we have to hear God's supposed teeny tiny voice. If God wants to speak to us, we will DEFINITELY know he is speaking to us. He is and all-powerful God, so why would he try to mask his speaking to us in a quiet voice?

Because He wants us to listen. Because it is the way the Holy Spirit often speaks to us. And let me assure you, the Bible is filled with examples of men and women who were directed by God. God has a plan, a purpose, and if we are willing vessels, He will perform it through us.

It's no longer about us, our dreams, goals, and ambitions. It's about God and what He wants. That is the bottom line.

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 04:36 PM
Your post brings up a quick testimony. Our worship team practices on Friday nights. We usually discussed the color for Sunday and then we'd all be in unity concerning the color of the clothes we'd wear. We did this for a short period of time and then decided to instead just seek God's will for what to wear. When all members of the team do this (pray individually and seek His will), the color coordination consistantly matches even though we don't discuss what we're going to wear anymore.

That's awesome. I think that God's will always works out somehow, no matter what we do. Just like you guys took the initiative to pick out an outfit for worship, God blessed you for that. That's actually really cool, and that reminds me of how God always works things out, as long as I take some type of initiative.

Also, did God tell you what clothes to wear? No, he didn't. You picked an outfit yourself. You took the initiative. You asked for God's will, and he blessed you and your team with great color coordination. This is what I'm saying, take an initiative for something, and God will steer you somehow. This was my whole point in my first post.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 04:38 PM
I never said God doesn't give direction to people. I know that "in a man's heart he plans his course, but the Lord guides his steps." (Proverbs 16:9)

I said God doesn't have a fixed will that if we miss the mark then we'll be sinning. So you think that if God's plan for a guy is to be an accountant, but he wants to be an architect instead, then he will be sinning?I don't feel this is a sin but he'll be an accountant under his own ability while following God's will, the life as the architect will be blessed because in this profession He's following the path God placed before him.

Other scripture you may want to look at since you brought up Proverbs is 3:5-6, 4:12, and even Psalm 37:23.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 04:41 PM
That's awesome. I think that God's will always works out somehow, no matter what we do. Just like you guys took the initiative to pick out an outfit for worship, God blessed you for that. That's actually really cool, and that reminds me of how God always works things out, as long as I take some type of initiative.

Also, did God tell you what clothes to wear? No, he didn't. You picked an outfit yourself. You took the initiative. You asked for God's will, and he blessed you and your team with great color coordination. This is what I'm saying, take an initiative for something, and God will steer you somehow. This was my whole point in my first post.Yeah, except when I pulled out some clothes and put them on and as the time got close to leaving... I'd go back upstairs to change because of the Holy Spirit's prompting. Only to get to church and match. If I'd worn the first choice because i allowed my "personal" choice to stand... well, at least I'd still be clothed, hahaha

Vhayes
Apr 9th 2010, 04:41 PM
This is not at all what I took away from the OP. The OP is not just talking about legalism or some fear of God striking His people down. The OP is basically saying that God doesn't speak or give direction anymore, and it is only through the bible that we discern God's will. The OP is clearly stating that God doesn't give anyone a specific will or plan . . . and that couldn't be more false. In fact, it is borderline heretic. I honestly do not see how anyone could read the Word of God and come away with the opinion that God doesn't lead or direct that path of those who truly in their heart seek His will.

I don't know, Vertical -

I thought when the original post had this:

I have never been braver in my life. I'm approaching strangers, both men and women and talking to them like good friends. I'm standing up for myself at work; I'm thinking for myself, I've killed my anxiety problems I used to have. ALL because I asked God for help and actually taking the initiative to do it.

So my point is, there is no such thing as a specific will for our lives. We have freedom to pursue our interests, and God is not going to punish us if we pick school A instead of school B and so on. I hope a lot of people read this and understand the truth, and gain some confidence, not living lives trapped inside a cage because they're araid of what's outside of it.

I thought he was saying he was in a constant angst fearing he would make a wrong "choice" in his daily life. I thought he was saying He has discovered the freedom in being an adopted son instead of a slave.

But I could be wrong. I have been before.

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 04:43 PM
Because He wants us to listen. Because it is the way the Holy Spirit often speaks to us. And let me assure you, the Bible is filled with examples of men and women who were directed by God. God has a plan, a purpose, and if we are willing vessels, He will perform it through us.

It's no longer about us, our dreams, goals, and ambitions. It's about God and what He wants. That is the bottom line.

So you're saying that whatever I want is the opposite of what God wants? Are you one of those people who settled for a mediocre job and relationship because you thought that's where God wanted you to be? Why do you think that a person's goals are in conflict with God? Isn't it possible for a person to magnify God in whatever the guy is pursuing?

What are you going to tell a kid who's not good at anything, that he shoudn't bother pursuing his dreams and ambitions, because God didn't somehow "make" him good at something? Nobody is born good at anything. People develop skills and talents in their life.

Bladers
Apr 9th 2010, 04:44 PM
I never said God doesn't give direction to people. I know that "in a man's heart he plans his course, but the Lord guides his steps." (Proverbs 16:9)

I said God doesn't have a fixed will that if we miss the mark then we'll be sinning. So you think that if God's plan for a guy is to be an accountant, but he wants to be an architect instead, then he will be sinning?

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Repeated again in 16:12 "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Jeremiah 10:23 "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."

This is why, In Job we read:
"For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword."

Here We See The Example Of What Job Wrote!

"Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
And after he had seen the vision,immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them."
Acts 16

GOD Does have A Specific Plan, Will, And Purpose! God withdrew them from their purpose and probably saved their lives from the pit. They could have died in Asia or Bithynia. Who Knows? Only God!

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 04:53 PM
Yeah, except when I pulled out some clothes and put them on and as the time got close to leaving... I'd go back upstairs to change because of the Holy Spirit's prompting. Only to get to church and match. If I'd worn the first choice because i allowed my "personal" choice to stand... well, at least I'd still be clothed, hahaha

Oh well, maybe I guess I disobeyed the Holy Spirit's prompting when I bought a Nissan instead of a Mitsubishi, because I kinda did hear a little voice in my head to buy the Mitsubishi at first (or was that just my own thought), but then, I picked the Nissan, which now is awesome car that I have now. Too bad, maybe God's not going to bless me as much now since I'm driving a car that he didn't want me to drive.

Oh wait I forgot. Ever since I had that car God has always provided for me the money to pay off any damages it has had, and it's been running pretty well. But I could be wrong, the Holy Spirit's maybe telling me to go sell it and get a Mitsubishi instead. Not a red one, but a teal one.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 05:01 PM
Oh well, maybe I guess I disobeyed the Holy Spirit's prompting when I bought a Nissan instead of a Mitsubishi, because I kinda did hear a little voice in my head to buy the Mitsubishi at first, but then, I picked the Nissan, which now is awesome car that I have now. Too bad, maybe God's not going to bless me as much now since I'm driving a car that he didn't want me to drive.

Oh wait I forgot. Ever since I had that car God has always provided for me the money to pay off any damages it has had, and it's been running pretty well. But I could be wrong, the Holy Spirit's maybe telling me to go sell it and get a Mitsubishi instead. Not a red one, but a teal one.When it comes to being obedient to God's will... all one can do is either be obedient or not.

A friend of mine on this board once said something that really caused me to sit down and seek God. This is what he basically said... When the Lord opens a door for you and once you are through it, yet nothing happens... all He wanted to test, was that you'd run through the door.

If the Lord is to use us in mighty ways and we can't follow His will... what we do is gonna flop all around us, or worse... on us.

We're tested, we go through trials and as we learn to listen to the will of God and hear His specific direction(s) for us... then He can use us fully... empowered, and fully obedient. When He says, "Jump out of the boat" we don't even get our hipwaders on, we just jump and wait for the next direction.

Also, when you reach a point where God isn't giving you direction anymore... look back on the last direction He gave you and do it. He's waiting for your obedience before He can continue to use you.

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 05:01 PM
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Repeated again in 16:12 "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Jeremiah 10:23 "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."

This is why, In Job we read:
"For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword."

Here We See The Example Of What Job Wrote!

"Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
And after he had seen the vision,immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them."
Acts 16

GOD Does have A Specific Plan, Will, And Purpose! God withdrew them from their purpose and probably saved their lives from the pit. They could have died in Asia or Bithynia. Who Knows? Only God!

You're just copy and pasting a bunch of verses that you don't know how to put into context. THE HEART IS DECEITFUL BECAUSE OF SIN, NOT BECAUSE OF OF THE AMBITIONS THAT WE HAVE. What is so wicked and deceitful about aspiring to become an architect instead of an accountant if you glorify God in it?

Vhayes
Apr 9th 2010, 05:06 PM
God creates desires in us for a reason. We are all different. I think that's part of the design.

When I first became a Christian, I had a dreadful fear. I thought God was going to ask me to go to some remote part of the globe to tell indigenous peoples about Him. I'm not a traveler, never have been. I LIKE being home. So, I feared the unknown and the things that might be asked of me. For that reason, I was fearful of committing my ways to the Lord. I just KNEW He was going to send me somewhere with no electricity or running water.

Finally, after being hit over the head about a dozen times, I talked to God about it. I told Him my fear(s). I told Him I thought He would ask me to do all sorts of things I did not want to do. I immediately "felt" better. I guess I got it off my chest and that was that. Except the next day, I encountered a person who did not know the Lord. And the day after that, the same thing happened. And the day after that. That's when I heard God's laughter and felt His hug. It was as though He was saying, loud and clear, "Child, I know you like electricity. Why would I ask you to something that would make you miserable? You are where you are for a reason. Take each day, use it to the fullest. I am with you and will give you all you need. There are as many lost souls around you right where you are as there are lost souls in the middle of the Amazon jungle. I'm here to help you, not punish you. Now - go - run - laugh - be free."

Life hasn't been the same since then. Now, life really is an adventure.
V

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 05:07 PM
and its all REVEALED... get this.. In His Word.. the Word of God... Both the Written Word.. and the Living Word.. He that was once physically dead.. yet liveth forevermore.... this Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh

The "will of God" revealed in scriptures does not reveal all the decisions I have to make throughout my life beyond living righteously. The Word won't show me which projects to work on at work or any of the other myriad decisions I have to make every single day throughout my lifetime.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 05:07 PM
You're just copy and pasting a bunch of verses that you don't know how to put into context. THE HEART IS DECEITFUL BECAUSE OF SIN, NOT BECAUSE OF OF THE AMBITIONS THAT WE HAVE. What is so wicked and deceitful about aspiring to become an architect instead of an accountant if you glorify God in it?See, that's the thing... if God wants you to be an architect then all you do is glory to God. If you don't do the will of God and you choose to be an accountant, then all good is of your own ability and the glory is not Gods.

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 05:13 PM
See, that's the thing... if God wants you to be an architect then all you do is glory to God. If you don't do the will of God and you choose to be an accountant, then all good is of your own ability and the glory is not Gods.

Not true. You can magnify God anywhere and everywhere. If I enjoy being an accountant rather than an architect and being good at it, being boisterous and loving towards others in my office, showing them to God, then how is that outside of God's plan?

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 9th 2010, 05:18 PM
So you're saying that whatever I want is the opposite of what God wants? Are you one of those people who settled for a mediocre job and relationship because you thought that's where God wanted you to be? Why do you think that a person's goals are in conflict with God? Isn't it possible for a person to magnify God in whatever the guy is pursuing?

What are you going to tell a kid who's not good at anything, that he shoudn't bother pursuing his dreams and ambitions, because God didn't somehow "make" him good at something? Nobody is born good at anything. People develop skills and talents in their life.

Nope, I am a worship coordinator at the best church in America and I am married to the most amazing woman in the universe. I have the greatest daughter in the world and am on my way the best plane any human being could ever imagine - heaven. The point I'm making is that it is not about US. So much in the church is done under the guise of goals, dreams, ambitions, when really it's just man's flesh operating. If God places a dream in your heart, pursue it by all means. If God gives you goals, go for them!

There is no such thing as a kid who is not good at anything.

Firefighter
Apr 9th 2010, 05:19 PM
I was unaware that dead people HAD a will...

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 9th 2010, 05:19 PM
I was unaware that dead people HAD a will...

My point exactly.

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 05:21 PM
I was unaware that dead people HAD a will...

If by "dead people" you mean "you and me", then it is simple observable fact that we do have will. We make countless decisions with it every single day.

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2010, 05:22 PM
I never said God doesn't give direction to people. I know that "in a man's heart he plans his course, but the Lord guides his steps." (Proverbs 16:9)

I said God doesn't have a fixed will that if we miss the mark then we'll be sinning. So you think that if God's plan for a guy is to be an accountant, but he wants to be an architect instead, then he will be sinning?

If God tells someone they should be an architect instead of an accountant and the person refuses . . . yes, they would be sinning.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 05:22 PM
Not true. You can magnify God anywhere and everywhere. If I enjoy being an accountant rather than an architect and being good at it, being boisterous and loving towards others in my office, showing them to God, then how is that outside of God's plan?I don't know... maybe during this point in life your profession has no purpose other then to prepare you for the future. I was in the military for 21 years and try to explain that to some Christians that it was God's will for my life :rolleyes:

Now, I minister to soldiers and the fact that I've been/there done/that, I can help them in ways many can't. I can relate, I've killed in battle, I've been wet, cold, lonely, missed home, fearful, in danger, watched friends hurt and/or killed, cried, laughed, marched, flew, jumped out of planes, gave orders, followed orders, etc.

21 years for the Lord to prepare me for a specific ministry that He didn't even reveal to me until about 6 months after I took off the uniform.

I don't know dude... all I do know is my personal relationship with God.

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 05:22 PM
Did anyone decide not to write in this thread, only to enter a state of unconsciousness while the Holy Spirit remote controlled your hands?

Brother Mark
Apr 9th 2010, 05:22 PM
I know that God sometimes did specify what he wanted some people to do in the Bible, but those were different. He told them directly what to do, like Noah, Jonah, Jesus, Moses, and a bunch of others. I'm saying that in today's day and age it's very rare that God actually directly tells what to do, like go to this place and be a missionary there.

I like your original post Trance. IMO, there's a balance to both sides. Jesus said he only did what the Father told him to do. What are we to do with that? Well, the first Adam gives us a clue about how the second Adam functioned. The first Adam had one command "Don't eat this tree". We do know however, that it was God's will for him to eat of all the other trees freely. So had Adam asked "Should I eat grapefruit this morning" the response would have been "You can eat freely from all these trees but don't eat from the tree of knowledge." Adam could have ate each tree and done only what the Lord told him to do. He had a lot of freedom in the Garden. But there was one tree God forbade.

God still speaks to us directly today. Most of the time, I walk in the parameters God has set down for my life. But sometimes, God will speak a direct word and it is then that I must follow specifically. But as you mentioned in your first post, we are free to follow the words of God that say "Whatsoever you do, do as unto the Lord". There's a lot of freedom in that. We can walk in that. But we just need to keep in mind when the Lord does speak specificially, we can move on it.


I didn't say God doesn't have a will in general; what I meant was that we don't need to seek divine revelation into everything in our lives, as long as we are within bounds of the Bible. Life is not a game of chess with God waiting to crush you every time you make the wrong move.

Nothing wrong with seeking. But your general point is a very good one! God is able to speak to us if we go astray. If we seek and he remains silent, then are we not free to move? In the garden there was one no and many yeses. Too often today we asume there are many nos and only one yes.

Grace to you!

Mark

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 05:31 PM
Nothing wrong with seeking. But your general point is a very good one! God is able to speak to us if we go astray. If we seek and he remains silent, then are we not free to move? In the garden there was one no and many yeses. Too often today we asume there are many nos and only one yes.

Grace to you!

MarkMark, you point something out here that is important. As Hisleast has been kinda jabbing at and harping on in his posts... sure, seek God's will but in the silence... we have free will and we are free to make those choices that have no impact upon God's will for us. So sure, wear the jeans and not the slacks and eat at BK and not KFC. It don't really matter.

Yet, if we are prompted to eat at KFC even though we want that Whopper... go get the chicken and once there, then God has you available and obedient to what He's got you there for.

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2010, 05:33 PM
What I find hinders many believers today is when we create boxes and say, "God won't do this . . . " or "God will always do this . . . "

There are a few things you can apply those phrases to like, of course, when you say something like, "God will always be holy . . . " or " God will never sin . . . "

However, for the most part we cannot build a God-box and command Him to stay in there. Yes, God has given us freedom. However, why can't God tell us what job to go after or where to attend school? Why can't God tell us who to marry or where we should go and minister?

My thinking is . . . perhaps if we would come to God with these sorts of decisions maybe there wouldn't be so many people going into jobs that make them miserable or entering into marriages with people who turn out not to be who they first thought they were. Saying, "God can't . . . " or "God doesn't . . . " is a very broad brush that most of the time only attempts to place God in a box that He's just not going to be a part of.

Bladers
Apr 9th 2010, 05:40 PM
You're just copy and pasting a bunch of verses that you don't know how to put into context. THE HEART IS DECEITFUL BECAUSE OF SIN, NOT BECAUSE OF OF THE AMBITIONS THAT WE HAVE. What is so wicked and deceitful about aspiring to become an architect instead of an accountant if you glorify God in it?

I guess i copied and pasted the right scriptures... LOL, NO!
People always complain about context when they know that the scripture is talking directly to them.

Do you know why the heart is wicked and deceitful? It deceives a person by convincing them that they will glorify God even by disobeying him as an accountant and not as an architect that God called them to be. Saul did the same thing and was Rejected and the Kingdom was striped from him. He trusted his heart after listening to people around him. Tried to move out of his calling to become a priest by offering sacrifices.

You hear a-lot in the news and media about "Trusting your heart"
Especially when you want to get married, They tell you: "Trust your heart".
But why in the world will any one want to trust the most wicked and deceitful thing ever?
When you have over 1.2 million divorces a year! Talk about trusting your heart, huh?

the bible says: "He who trusts in his own heart is a fool" (Proverbs 28:26)
When Samson trusted his heart, God left him, He Lost His Ministry and was Killed.

And People still say "Trust your heart" When the Bible says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths." Paths meaning, "way of life".

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 05:48 PM
If God tells someone they should be an architect instead of an accountant and the person refuses . . . yes, they would be sinning.

So I was sinning when I decided to switch my majors in colloege, in spite of what people were telling me what God's talents for me were?

So I was sinning when I was trying out different classes and looking for different ways to use my talents?

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 9th 2010, 05:49 PM
I really don't know what to say anymore to people like you. I guess there will always be bigoted radicals in all religions.

I'm so glad we can have a civil and loving dialogue on the issue.

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 05:51 PM
Yeah... IF God "tells" someone to be an architect. But what happens if God doesn't "tell" someone what they're supposed to do for a profession? Must that person languish the rest of their days playing some kind of cruel guessing game of God's will? Or should they just not work?

OR... is it possible, however unlikely, that God actually gave us liberty and free agency to make what decisions we could in this life along guidelines that He has set?

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 05:53 PM
Yeah... IF God "tells" someone to be an architect. But what happens if God doesn't "tell" someone what they're supposed to do for a profession? Must that person languish the rest of their days playing some kind of cruel guessing game of God's will? Or should they just not work?

OR... is it possible, however unlikely, that God actually gave us liberty and free agency to make what decisions we could in this life along guidelines that He has set?See post #57 :P

BroRog
Apr 9th 2010, 06:01 PM
See post #57 :P

If God wanted to direct every area of our lives, you would think he would come up with a more efficient means to get the job done. Maybe a personal angel or something.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 06:02 PM
If God wanted to direct every area of our lives, you would think he would come up with a more efficient means to get the job done. Maybe a personal angel or something.You mean like His Spirit revealing His will :hmm: ;)

Bladers
Apr 9th 2010, 06:03 PM
If God wanted to direct every area of our lives, you would think he would come up with a more efficient means to get the job done. Maybe a personal angel or something.

Yea, What Slug said.... :)

1 Corinthians 2:12
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

KEYWORD: Freely!

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 06:05 PM
I'm noticing that in some people here there's an underlying assumption that if we don't listen to the little voice inside us, then we are sinning, even if all the choices are morally good. Like I said before, ASSIGNING DIVINE AUTHORITY TO YOUR INNER THOUGHTS IS ARROGANT AND DANGEROUS. Satan is able to talk to people in this manner too.

What if somebody had a problem with social skills and codependency, and they started learning how to get rid of all these things, but this person hears this inner voice that says "Stay the way you are, because your efforts are fleshly and useless." Where does that inner voice come from?

BroRog
Apr 9th 2010, 06:14 PM
You mean like His Spirit revealing His will :hmm: ;)

I suppose that might work, except I have never read in the Bible where it says that the Spirit reveals his will. For one thing, the Spirit defers to Jesus, and Jesus defers to the Father. Secondly, it would seem that without exception that the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to work along side the Apostles as the "Spirit of Truth" to convict the world of sin and to spread the teaching of Jesus around the world. I don't see any evidence that it is part of the Holy Spirit's role to pick out the color of carpeting at the church, for instance.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 06:16 PM
I'm noticing that in some people here there's an underlying assumption that if we don't listen to the little voice inside us, then we are sinning, even if all the choices are morally good. Like I said before, ASSIGNING DIVINE AUTHORITY TO YOUR INNER THOUGHTS IS ARROGANT AND DANGEROUS. Satan is able to talk to people in this manner too.

What if somebody had a problem with social skills and codependency, and they started learning how to get rid of all these things, but this person hears this inner voice that says "Stay the way you are, because your efforts are fleshly and useless." Where does that inner voice come from?Well, look throughout scripture... what happens when those of God don't follow God's will? Is it sin? Well... life sure gets rough for those not doing God's will.

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 06:18 PM
Well, look throughout scripture... what happens when those of God don't follow God's will? Is it sin? Well... life sure gets rough for those not doing God's will.

The more important question from that text you quoted was "how do you know where the voice is coming from"?
I could easily say the "voice" inside me that wants to work on Project X today is the holy spirit (even though my project has nothing to do with kingdom building) but it could just as easily be my own inner monologue.

BroRog
Apr 9th 2010, 06:21 PM
Yea, What Slug said.... :)

1 Corinthians 2:12
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

KEYWORD: Freely!I believe in this context Paul is talking about himself and the other Apostles. He means to say that he and the other Apostles have come to understand the wisdom of God since they have been given supernatural access to that wisdom so that, "your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God." Paul isn't suggesting that God is supernaturally revealing the color of church furnishings; rather, he is supernaturally revealing ideas that pertain to the faith.

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 06:23 PM
Well, look throughout scripture... what happens when those of God don't follow God's will? Is it sin? Well... life sure gets rough for those not doing God's will.

Part of following God's will is to keep sin out of my life. So you're saying it's a sin to develop one particular skill instead of another? Oh well, looks like I'm not holy enough because I don't have an inner voice inside. But did you happen to see what I wrote about how Satan also can speak to us in a quiet whisper inside us?

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 06:26 PM
I suppose that might work, except I have never read in the Bible where it says that the Spirit reveals his will. For one thing, the Spirit defers to Jesus, and Jesus defers to the Father. Secondly, it would seem that without exception that the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to work along side the Apostles as the "Spirit of Truth" to convict the world of sin and to spread the teaching of Jesus around the world. I don't see any evidence that it is part of the Holy Spirit's role to pick out the color of carpeting at the church, for instance.Funny you should say this as we're remodling our church and since confirmation to color seems to be placed upon many in the church, I'd have to disagree with you.

Anyway... so is being "led" by God's Spirit a different meaning then the Holy Spirit revealing God's will? Is our terminology different?

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 06:28 PM
Part of following God's will is to keep sin out of my life. So you're saying it's a sin to develop one particular skill instead of another? Oh well, looks like I'm not holy enough because I don't have an inner voice inside. But did you happen to see what I wrote about how Satan also can speak to us in a quiet whisper inside us?Discernment is a gift of God. We have this to ID where the voice comes from... God or satan.

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2010, 06:28 PM
So I was sinning when I decided to switch my majors in colloege, in spite of what people were telling me what God's talents for me were?

I don't know . . .

Did God tell you to go into the first major?

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2010, 06:30 PM
Yeah... IF God "tells" someone to be an architect. But what happens if God doesn't "tell" someone what they're supposed to do for a profession? Must that person languish the rest of their days playing some kind of cruel guessing game of God's will? Or should they just not work?

OR... is it possible, however unlikely, that God actually gave us liberty and free agency to make what decisions we could in this life along guidelines that He has set?

Ask and it will be given . . . seek and you will find . . . knock and it will be opened for you . . .

What I find is that many folks don't ask, don't seek, and don't knock . . . then they say, "God never told me."

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 06:32 PM
I don't know . . .

Did God tell you to go into the first major?

Define "telling." Oh wait. God did tell me this: pick any major you want and develop the skills there, and I will provide for you and help you along the way. So yeah, he did tell me.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 9th 2010, 06:34 PM
Didn't Jesus say Himself that His sheep will know His voice...?

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2010, 06:34 PM
Define "telling."

Telling as in God spoke to you and told you to go into a specific major.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 06:37 PM
Didn't Jesus say Himself that His sheep will know His voice...?Not if Jesus voice says do the accounting, or architech, or... I lost tract :lol:

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 06:42 PM
I suppose that might work, except I have never read in the Bible where it says that the Spirit reveals his will. For one thing, the Spirit defers to Jesus, and Jesus defers to the Father. Secondly, it would seem that without exception that the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to work along side the Apostles as the "Spirit of Truth" to convict the world of sin and to spread the teaching of Jesus around the world. I understand this... take Peter in Acts 8 for example. Was he "led" by the Holy Spirit or was the Holy Spirit revealing God's will to go to the eunuch?

That's why I asked if our "terms" are different.

It's God's will, revealed to Peter and he was obedient.

Not only does the Holy Spirit reveal God's will but also "enables" a servant to do His will.

Take Acts 9 and Ananias. Ananias even questions God's will for him but in obedience, did all the Holy Spirit revealed to him that God wanted him to do.

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 06:46 PM
Not if Jesus voice says do the accounting, or architech, or... I lost tract :lol:

I was just using architect and accountant as examples. Actually I have no interest in neither of those at all. BTW, who are you to tell me what the holy spirit was saying to me? Who are you to tell me how God is speaking to me inside?

Right now I'm taking 30 minutes off this lively discussion full of love haha. The Holy Spirit is prompting me right now to go buy some groceries at Trader Joe's. C ya

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 06:49 PM
I was just using architect and accountant as examples. Actually I have no interest in neither of those at all. BTW, who are you to tell me what the holy spirit was saying to me? Who are you to tell me how God is speaking to me inside?

Right now I'm taking 30 minutes off this lively discussion full of love haha. The Holy Spirit is prompting me right now to go buy some groceries at Trader Joe's. C yaI'm not "telling" you anything... "you" are taking it personal for some reason.

Notice the laughie face in what you quoted.

Dude, you have the choice to be obedient or not... to God's will.

HisLeast
Apr 9th 2010, 07:36 PM
Ask and it will be given . . . seek and you will find . . . knock and it will be opened for you . . .

What I find is that many folks don't ask, don't seek, and don't knock . . . then they say, "God never told me."

And what I find is that people are seldom told to "listen to what God is telling them" but simultaneously "don't listen to your heart" when there's practically no way to distinguish the two the majority of the time. I will testify that I have asked, sought, and knocked until my knuckles were a fine pink paste of ground flesh and bone and "heard" no answer what-so-ever. Turns out in those times I had to collect what wisdom I could and make the best decision possible in good conscience. I assume that since my world did not implode, God must have been satisfied with that. It would have been a scary reality if God was playing a sick game of "Guess what I'm thinking!" with me after all.

moonglow
Apr 9th 2010, 07:45 PM
God creates desires in us for a reason. We are all different. I think that's part of the design.

When I first became a Christian, I had a dreadful fear. I thought God was going to ask me to go to some remote part of the globe to tell indigenous peoples about Him. I'm not a traveler, never have been. I LIKE being home. So, I feared the unknown and the things that might be asked of me. For that reason, I was fearful of committing my ways to the Lord. I just KNEW He was going to send me somewhere with no electricity or running water.

Finally, after being hit over the head about a dozen times, I talked to God about it. I told Him my fear(s). I told Him I thought He would ask me to do all sorts of things I did not want to do. I immediately "felt" better. I guess I got it off my chest and that was that. Except the next day, I encountered a person who did not know the Lord. And the day after that, the same thing happened. And the day after that. That's when I heard God's laughter and felt His hug. It was as though He was saying, loud and clear, "Child, I know you like electricity. Why would I ask you to something that would make you miserable? You are where you are for a reason. Take each day, use it to the fullest. I am with you and will give you all you need. There are as many lost souls around you right where you are as there are lost souls in the middle of the Amazon jungle. I'm here to help you, not punish you. Now - go - run - laugh - be free."

Life hasn't been the same since then. Now, life really is an adventure.
V

Awesome post...couldn't rep you for it though so just quoting it here. Slug and Blade and so many have done great posts on here. I have been sitting here quietly reading through this as a lurker.;)

I have to say I was pretty dismayed by what the OP thought God was all about though. Yes He gives us freedoms..He doesn't micromanage our every move..I don't even know why someone would think that to start with.

I clicked on the link the OP listed in the first page and saw where he picked this phrase up: Life is not a chess game with God just waiting to crush you when you make the wrong move. I know we have been trained to think that way sometimes, but that's not how it works. :eek::eek: Whoever teaches that? That isn't in the bible. God is our Father and loves us.

That isn't what being a Christian is all about. I have never thought that. No wonder the OP had so much anxiety. Jesus said He came to give us an abundant life! We have freedom in Him.

Paul warns us though having this freedom to do anything needs to be tempered with how it affects others:

1 Corinthians 10
The Believer's Freedom

23"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. (needs to be read in content so the whole chapter really needs to be read)

While we have freedom and an abundant life..its all within Christ...not outside of Him. Maybe that is what the OP was trying to say.

The BIG life plan though always needs to be directed by God because He does have a plan for us. Even in this plan though I believe their is freedom. Its like if God says I want you to drive to California! you say ok Lord..which highway should I take..and the Lord says, doesn't matter as long as you get there by next week. That gives us alot of freedom on the way to make alot of different choices on our route...on where to stop and stay the night, on which place to eat at. In this case its the end of the trip He is looking at.

For others , God does do alot more directing and says I really need you to take this route ...not telling us why. We just need to trust Him on that and obey. On the way we see a car stranded in the middle of no where, the people have been trapped for 24 hours with a toddler and are running out of food and water and its a 100 degrees out. Then you say, ah ha..now I know why God wanted me to go this way..

For each person its different.

I am truly sadden the OP doesn't think God talks to us anymore but that we are only hearing our own thoughts instead. No where in the bible does it say He no longer directs our paths or speaks to us.

God bless

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 07:54 PM
And what I find is that people are seldom told to "listen to what God is telling them" but simultaneously "don't listen to your heart" when there's practically no way to distinguish the two the majority of the time.

Very true. That makes me wonder about how people decipher between listening to their hearts or listening to the Holy Spirit. People can say anything and declare that the Holy Spirit told them to do it. I have thoughts all the time floating in my head, and I can say that the Holy Spirit prompted me to do this or that, or gave me this idea.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 9th 2010, 07:55 PM
Very true. That makes me wonder about how people decipher between listening to their hearts or listening to the Holy Spirit. People can say anything and declare that the Holy Spirit told them to do it. I have thoughts all the time floating in my head, and I can say that the Holy Spirit prompted me to do this or that, or gave me this idea.

As Slug1 said earlier, it has a lot to do with discernment.

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 08:08 PM
As Slug1 said earlier, it has a lot to do with discernment.

Discernment is separating sinful motives from holy motives. Suppose I have a desire in my heart to apply for a job and from my discernment I boil it down to having godly motives, then there is no problem. I'm happy, God's happy. Who is anybody to tell me what the holy spirit is prompting me to do?

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 9th 2010, 08:09 PM
If God's specific will doesnt exist... then why does the tempter come at the child of God.. trying to trip him/her up.. in an attempt to make them 'walk' outside the Specific Will of God for that individual..

its for that VERY REASON that the Tempter does what he does.. because the specific will of God has been revealed to the Individual thru His Word and the Spirit of Truth...

it irritates and infuriates the devil when a child of God is directly in the Specific Will of God for their life... he is the seed of rebellion and what a better way to sow it than to have him/her walk outside the specific will of God... and not only that.. come along and tell individuals.. that 'there is no such thing as a Specific Will of God for an individual'... WHEN His Specific Will for each individual is found and Revealed thru His Word... not only the 'logos'... but Jesus Christ Himself.. the Living Word...

to preach and teach otherwise is absolutely ludicrous... and from what I discern... is an act of Rebellion...

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 08:19 PM
If God's specific will doesnt exist... then why does the tempter come at the child of God.. trying to trip him/her up.. in an attempt to make them 'walk' outside the Specific Will of God for that individual..

its for that VERY REASON that the Tempter does what he does.. because the specific will of God has been revealed to the Individual thru His Word and the Spirit of Truth...

it irritates and infuriates the devil when a child of God is directly in the Specific Will of God for their life... he is the seed of rebellion and what a better way to sow it than to have him/her walk outside the specific will of God... and not only that.. come along and tell individuals.. that 'there is no such thing as a Specific Will of God for an individual'... WHEN His Specific Will for each individual is found and Revealed thru His Word... not only the 'logos'... but Jesus Christ Himself.. the Living Word...

to preach and teach otherwise is absolutely ludicrous... and from what I discern... is an act of Rebellion...

Do you know what else Satan does to throw off believers? He knows the scriptures more than anybody, and is able to make people twist them in a way to hurt others. He uses other people, even other believers sometimes, to say things to the person to belittle them and bring them down. Things like they aren't smart enough or good enough, that God made that person slow-witted and scared, that they should stay that way because if they attempt to pursue change, God won't bless it because it's outside of the supposed specific will others are telling him.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2010, 08:49 PM
Discernment is separating sinful motives from holy motives. Suppose I have a desire in my heart to apply for a job and from my discernment I boil it down to having godly motives, then there is no problem. I'm happy, God's happy. Who is anybody to tell me what the holy spirit is prompting me to do?Discernement is the gift of telling what spirit is present... the Holy Spirit or not the Holy Spirit.

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 08:56 PM
Discernement is the gift of telling what spirit is present... the Holy Spirit or not the Holy Spirit.

So then what's the problem? What is your problem with what I just said? How do you tell which spirit is speaking to you? Look at the motives, are they good or bad? IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

newinchrist4now
Apr 9th 2010, 09:29 PM
God's specific will DOESN'T EXISTYes He does, God is the sovereign over all. God knows all from time beginning to time ending, God is not surprised ever. God has a specific will for everyone's life.

moonglow
Apr 9th 2010, 10:14 PM
Do you know what else Satan does to throw off believers? He knows the scriptures more than anybody, and is able to make people twist them in a way to hurt others. He uses other people, even other believers sometimes, to say things to the person to belittle them and bring them down. Things like they aren't smart enough or good enough, that God made that person slow-witted and scared, that they should stay that way because if they attempt to pursue change, God won't bless it because it's outside of the supposed specific will others are telling him.

Whoa...hang on a second Trance..have people been saying this to you or others that claim to be Christian? They are obviously in great error to ever say such things. Its very easy to know if someone is speaking the truth by comparing it to scripture. The bible clearly tells us to love each other..especially our brethren. Its not loving, but just plain cruel to belittle anyone in this way. They aren't speaking on God's behalf nor basing these things on scripture.

The bible tells us we NEED to learn, to learn about God, to learn His Word, to gain knowledge ...there is nothing wrong for instance in getting a good education..going to college..Matthew one of the disciples was an extremely educated man, so was Paul. The bible in no way suggest we don't continue to improve ourselves. Many of the prophets in fact were highly educated even while they were captive slaves of other nations.


Read my signature.

If someone is saying this to you, you have every right to ask them to back that up with scripture. They can't. Its not that hard to know if something is coming from God or the devil.

God bless

Trance
Apr 9th 2010, 11:09 PM
Whoa...hang on a second Trance..have people been saying this to you or others that claim to be Christian? They are obviously in great error to ever say such things. Its very easy to know if someone is speaking the truth by comparing it to scripture. The bible clearly tells us to love each other..especially our brethren. Its not loving, but just plain cruel to belittle anyone in this way. They aren't speaking on God's behalf nor basing these things on scripture.

The bible tells us we NEED to learn, to learn about God, to learn His Word, to gain knowledge ...there is nothing wrong for instance in getting a good education..going to college..Matthew one of the disciples was an extremely educated man, so was Paul. The bible in no way suggest we don't continue to improve ourselves. Many of the prophets in fact were highly educated even while they were captive slaves of other nations.


Read my signature.

If someone is saying this to you, you have every right to ask them to back that up with scripture. They can't. Its not that hard to know if something is coming from God or the devil.

God bless

Yeah, I'm with you on this, and I'm just saying that all this stuff about seeking knowledge and learning new things, these are all goals, as well as looking for a job or whatever. Every activity we do, whether big or small is a goal, and I don't think it's right for somebody to say that some goal is wicked, even though it aligns with God's sovereign will of being obedient. But some people on this board think I'm living in sin because I'm not living out my supposed "divinely" assigned role for my life.

Here's two goals, one big and one smaller: 1. pursuing a career as a painter where I can honor God and use my skills for his glory. But somewhere along the line somebody says, "God's not blessing you in this job, so you're outside of his specific will. 2. A goal to become a better speaker to make more friends. Both of these have godly motivations, and God is not going to give me an exact blueprint of what exactly to do in these situations; it's all in the Bible.

And this goes out to no specific poster here: This whole thing about not being able to hear God because I'm not listening is garbage. When Saul was killing Christians before he met Christ, did not God speak to him, and in a big, audible voice? Saul wasn't like, "Hey guys, let's stop for a second, I think I hear God speaking to me inside."

moonglow
Apr 10th 2010, 12:57 AM
Yeah, I'm with you on this, and I'm just saying that all this stuff about seeking knowledge and learning new things, these are all goals, as well as looking for a job or whatever. Every activity we do, whether big or small is a goal, and I don't think it's right for somebody to say that some goal is wicked, even though it aligns with God's sovereign will of being obedient. But some people on this board think I'm living in sin because I'm not living out my supposed "divinely" assigned role for my life.

Here's two goals, one big and one smaller: 1. pursuing a career as a painter where I can honor God and use my skills for his glory. But somewhere along the line somebody says, "God's not blessing you in this job, so you're outside of his specific will. 2. A goal to become a better speaker to make more friends. Both of these have godly motivations, and God is not going to give me an exact blueprint of what exactly to do in these situations; it's all in the Bible.

And this goes out to no specific poster here: This whole thing about not being able to hear God because I'm not listening is garbage. When Saul was killing Christians before he met Christ, did not God speak to him, and in a big, audible voice? Saul wasn't like, "Hey guys, let's stop for a second, I think I hear God speaking to me inside."

Ok Trance it shows you have been a member on here for two years but you only have 66 posts. I could possibly go back and find your other posts to see what you are talking about....or you could just tell me, did someone on here really say God wasn't blessing you in your painting and you should do something different? I think you are right..they have no way of knowing this. That is between you and Him actually. Even our goals should align with God. For instance you could have the goal of being a porn star...!! that of course wouldn't be in align with His Word. I don't know how others could know if you were following His guidance or not..I would say probably 90% of the people on here have no idea what God wants them to do in their life though! Seriously. Sometimes it takes time as God grows us before we get to the place He can use us like the wonderful example Slug gave in being a solider which gave him the experience to later down the road (years later) help other soldiers.

When you give real life examples like this (I am assuming they are real and not just examples) it really helps us understand much, much better why you are saying the things you are. I realize people on here all the time use made up examples to make a point, but personally I think it just adds to the confusion most of the time. Like the examples you were giving early to be an accountant or something else. It doesn't really help us understand what you are talking about.

The thing is some Christians have heard most of their lives that IF you are in God's will, things will just magically fall into place. Doors will open, money will flow, the right people will come in to our lives and so on. But when we look at the lives of the people in the bible, rarely did that happen though. Look at Joseph for instance. Image if he was posting on the board today and the response he would get:

Joseph: Hi everyone! I really need help here..it seems everything in my life is going wrong and I don't understand why. I love the Lord with all my heart. He has blessed me with dreams about the future, but my brothers got so jealous they threw me into a pit, and were going to kill me! My own brothers!!! :cry: I just feel so terribly betrayed.

Then one of them decided instead of doing this to sell me instead as a slave! I have been taken away from my father who I know is just sick with worry about me. I am being carted off to a strange land where I don't even speak the language. I am so very frightened. Who knows what these people will do to me or make me do. I am just a teenager...can someone please explain to me why these horrible things are happening to me!
*****
I can surely image the good intentions of many Christians telling Joseph he must not have been following God's will for these terrible things to have happened to him....or saying he must have sinned so God is mad at him. Or he really isn't saved because God wouldn't have let these terrible things happen to him. But I think most would simply tell him they didn't know why these bad things were happening...not too lose heart and they would be praying for him and probably try to save him even!

Yet when we read his story in the bible it says over and over and over with every bad event that happened that God was with him. God for instance provided the slave buyers to come along at just the right time so Joseph wouldn't be killed. Now most of us would NOT really see that as a blessing to have slave buyers buy you...but its better then being killed! And Joseph ended up being given more education and running an important man's home, where he could have been left to just work in the fields not learning anything. He learned their language, their ways of doing things, their culture. All through what appeared to be really bad things happening, good things were happening too. Most would have probably thought, oh what good would it do to learn about a pagan culture! What good would it be to learn to read and speak their language! They are idol worshipers. Most I would think it would have been better for Joseph to not learn anything and just remember the things he learned as a child...so he wouldn't risk being corrupted by these pagans.

Yet God had plans for him and did guide him all the way. And eventually he became Pharaoh's second hand man and saved his people, the Hebrews from starving to death. Now he couldn't have achieve that if he was too frightened to learn and work with what God gave him.

I believe God puts desires in our hearts ..yearnings to do things like your paintings..for a reason. Even if it appears you aren't being blessed, God can see the future. I think God takes away evil and destructive desires too btw. As long as you do what Jesus said:

Matthew 6
33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Anyway I hope that long rambling post made sense.

God bless

Trance
Apr 10th 2010, 01:39 AM
The thing is some Christians have heard most of their lives that IF you are in God's will, things will just magically fall into place. Doors will open, money will flow, the right people will come in to our lives and so on. But when we look at the lives of the people in the bible, rarely did that happen though. Look at Joseph for instance. Image if he was posting on the board today and the response he would get:

Joseph: Hi everyone! I really need help here..it seems everything in my life is going wrong and I don't understand why. I love the Lord with all my heart. He has blessed me with dreams about the future, but my brothers got so jealous they threw me into a pit, and were going to kill me! My own brothers!!! I just feel so terribly betrayed.

Then one of them decided instead of doing this to sell me instead as a slave! I have been taken away from my father who I know is just sick with worry about me. I am being carted off to a strange land where I don't even speak the language. I am so very frightened. Who knows what these people will do to me or make me do. I am just a teenager...can someone please explain to me why these horrible things are happening to me!
*****
I can surely image the good intentions of many Christians telling Joseph he must not have been following God's will for these terrible things to have happened to him....or saying he must have sinned so God is mad at him. Or he really isn't saved because God wouldn't have let these terrible things happen to him. But I think most would simply tell him they didn't know why these bad things were happening...not too lose heart and they would be praying for him and probably try to save him even!


That's a really good way to put it. Now that I think of it, sometimes I feel like Joseph too. This has been a great discussion today, and I wouldn't have expected it to have it gone up to this many responses in such a short time. One thing I've got out of it was how it's very important to listen to God individually, not what others think I should do. There are definitely some varying opinions here about how to listen to God's calling, but I know what's inside of me and I know that whatever decision I make for a goal is only between me and God.

moonglow
Apr 10th 2010, 01:51 AM
That's a really good way to put it. Now that I think of it, sometimes I feel like Joseph too. This has been a great discussion today, and I wouldn't have expected it to have it gone up to this many responses in such a short time. One thing I've got out of it was how it's very important to listen to God individually, not what others think I should do. There are definitely some varying opinions here about how to listen to God's calling, but I know what's inside of me and I know that whatever decision I make for a goal is only between me and God.

yes..and please always, always remember we are all at different places in our bible knowledge..and in our spiritual walk and that will affect how we respond to any posts. What I would have said to you a few years ago would probably be vastly different then what I am saying today.

when it comes right down too it..just ask God.

I will tell you this..I plan out my days..usually make a list. I don't ask God, should I go buy groceries today. I might whine about it though to Him...:lol: Maybe its cold and I don't want to get out. I don't ask God should I clean my house today...if its dirty it needs cleaning..lol.

We are to be good stewards with what He has given us. I thank Him daily for what He has given me. He in turned expects me to take care of it..to buy food to feed my son and myself of course. I don't ask Him about every little bitty thing but I do talk to Him about some of those little bitty things just because I like talking to Him. :D

If I am applying for a job I do want to know His thoughts on that...cause I depend on Him alot due to my being bad at picking wrong things like that..:rolleyes: I know myself and my track record. Not everyone may need this though.

At long as He is the center of your life, I don't think you will go and get lost..;)

God bless!

Slug1
Apr 10th 2010, 03:18 AM
That's a really good way to put it. Now that I think of it, sometimes I feel like Joseph too. This has been a great discussion today, and I wouldn't have expected it to have it gone up to this many responses in such a short time. One thing I've got out of it was how it's very important to listen to God individually, not what others think I should do. There are definitely some varying opinions here about how to listen to God's calling, but I know what's inside of me and I know that whatever decision I make for a goal is only between me and God.The Bible also tells us to test the Spirit... listening to God vs the enemy can be trying some times. Sure we know Jesus voice but the enemy isn't called the father of lies for no good reason. I've been prompted before, only to continue to seek God's confirmation and He revealed His truth and IDed the deception or even a better word to use... perception. It does take many times on the knees sometimes.

Trance
Apr 10th 2010, 04:05 AM
The Bible also tells us to test the Spirit... listening to God vs the enemy can be trying some times. Sure we know Jesus voice but the enemy isn't called the father of lies for no good reason. I've been prompted before, only to continue to seek God's confirmation and He revealed His truth and IDed the deception or even a better word to use... perception. It does take many times on the knees sometimes.

I understand what you're saying. We do have to make sure our conscience is in key with God. But tell me this, how important does an activity/goal/errand have to be where we are supposed to ask ourselves whether God or Satan are speaking to us? For instance I'm going to go to church on Sunday and meet new people in the youth group. Hypothetically I ask God which specific person should I talk to, and he doesn't answer. I ask and ask over and over, but I get only silence. Am I not praying hard enough? Am I not holy enough?

I'm going to just pick somebody and meet them, because I'm taking initiative and God will bless me for that.

newinchrist4now
Apr 10th 2010, 04:41 AM
You'll get an answer, just stop looking so hard. New people show up what should you do? If we wait for an answer we will always wait, as Christians we need to be doers of the Word not just partakers

Trance
Apr 10th 2010, 05:22 AM
You'll get an answer, just stop looking so hard. New people show up what should you do? If we wait for an answer we will always wait, as Christians we need to be doers of the Word not just partakers

Exactly. Life is not that complicated. You obey the Bible, you have a goal, pursue it, minister to others, and God will help along the way. I just don't understand why people are getting legalistic about interpreting God's will.

This is for some of the other posters here: God never told me specifically what career to take or what friends to make. I read the Bible every single day and have an awesome relationship with the Lord, and I don't think I'm any dirtier in conscience than any other Christian out there. I never heard any little voice inside to tell me to go somewhere. The opportunities were there and I took advantage of them. How sinful is that? What is so sinful about pursuing a goal that glorifies God?

Goodness gracious I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here. But I am angry at how the word of God is distorted by people, saying that if they are not at a specific place at a specific time doing a specific thing then they are sinning. This infuriates me. This is the problem of society in America. All these legalistic bigots telling people, young and old, that they are in the wrong if they aren't "listening" well enough. This creates anxiety, fear, and mistrust. I used to have major problems with anxiety, depression, and fear of people. I took initiative in ridding of these, and part of the process was realizing that I have freedom in Christ. I am following a God full of grace, not a God who's hiding behind the bushes waiting for me to run into a trap. Some of the people who I've talked to today on this post are bigoted to put it nicely, and they need to re-read my first post, that and learn how to spell right. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? I AM BRAVER THAN EVER, MORE SOCIABLE, NOT AFRAID OF PEOPLE, NOT WORRYING, WALKING WITH A BOUNCE IN MY STEP. All because I realized I have freedom to pursue my dreams. What is sinful about that?

Recovery from porn addiction is a goal. Finding a spouse is a goal. Starting a conversation with a non-believer is a goal. Sharpening a pencil is a goal. What prompt to you need? WHAT MORE EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED THAN TO JUST DO IT? Go out there and get what you're worth. Did I say bigots like these are what the problem is in America? It's not only the gangs, the broken homes, drugs, whatever. It's not only that, but the church. Telling somebody they can't be a minister because they're stuttering, telling somebody they shouldn't learn to be a singer because they just started at it and aren't that great, telling somebody they are sinning because they can't hear the voice of God: these arrogant people hurt people inside at a level where is hard to see, way below the superficial level. People march to church, some of them hurting inside, and leaving the same way back out to their cars because somebody there told them they are sinning because they can't find out what God wants them to do with their lives.

Some of you here will never change. "Hmm, which deathbed is the holy spirit prompting me to use when I'm going to die?" I can see that happening in some of your minds. "Oh wait, I can't comprehend that because I have no will at all because I'm a tool who listens to what everybody says and I can't think for myself."

newinchrist4now
Apr 10th 2010, 05:35 AM
Exactly. Life is not that complicated. You obey the Bible, you have a goal, pursue it, minister to others, and God will help along the way. I just don't understand why people are getting legalistic about interpreting God's will.

Because we are servants of the King. We do nothing that God doesn't will for our lives, it's a fact we don't want to hear or acknowledge as servants we do as our King desires weather we realize or understand it or not. We don't need a liitle voice God orders our steps accrording to His specfic will.

A man's steps are established by the LORD,
and He takes pleasure in his way.

Ps 37:23

Slug1
Apr 10th 2010, 11:23 AM
I understand what you're saying. We do have to make sure our conscience is in key with God. But tell me this, how important does an activity/goal/errand have to be where we are supposed to ask ourselves whether God or Satan are speaking to us? For instance I'm going to go to church on Sunday and meet new people in the youth group. Hypothetically I ask God which specific person should I talk to, and he doesn't answer. I ask and ask over and over, but I get only silence. Am I not praying hard enough? Am I not holy enough?

I'm going to just pick somebody and meet them, because I'm taking initiative and God will bless me for that.This I touched on earlier in post #57 in reply to Brothermarks post.

We don't always get an answer and this is my feelings... God's gonna do His work through us no matter who we (you) go to in such a situation. If He did want a specific person to be approached then you'd be prompted by the Holy Spirit and led. You may even be given words to speak. Since you're not prompted, be your self and approach any or all for that matter. I do much greeting at the door of our church but I don't approach everyone. I do much praying for people at church but I don't pray for everyone...

EarlyCall
Apr 10th 2010, 01:08 PM
I discovered something so awesome, so supremely awesome, something that is full of hope, energy, and possibilities, something that has no limitations and has no bounds. It is this: God has given us freedom in Christ, a freedom where we as believers are free to pursue godly goals that glorify God and reach out to others. Yeah, it sounds obvious, right, but there's so much to this beneath the surface. Let me explain.

Always be wary when you think you've discovered something great. First be certain you follow it up with the word of God and see if it is in line with God's thinking.

Every conceivable thing that we aspire to do, from raising our arm to reach for a pencil to working towards a Ph.D, these are all things called goals. Goals can be physical ones like these, and they can also be mental, like changing a personality flaw. We all have goals, and we all work for some type of goal, big and small. But what's all this I hear about God having some "specific" plan for us? How specific is this? You see, I keep hearing from people that I am supposed to make sure God approves a specific job or goal I pursue, making sure that I do something that is hidden in his will somewhere, and if I don't find it, I'm getting second-best. These people say these things, but where's the boundary? How important does the goal have to be where I'm going to have to ask for this divine guidance? God doesn't care what color toothbrush I buy at Jewel, so why would he care which job I take or which car I buy, as long as all of these satisfy the requirements of following Christ and not sinning?

Where will you be in five or ten years? Do you know? God certainly knows. Do you know how what you do now directly impacts where you will be five or ten years from now?

This whole idea of God's specific will is erroneous to say the least. Many people fall prey to this belief, living a limited life inside a closed box, inside these make-believe closed doors people are putting in themselves, and giving God the credit for creating obstacles in their path.

When God told Moses to strike the rock so that water would flow from that rock, God told Moses to strike the rock a certain number of times.

Let's ask a couple questions to see what that means.

Was it God's will that Moses strike the rock? Indeed. Obviously. So first we have established that it was God's will for Moses to strike the rock. Would we be getting into the specifics of the matter even further if we noted the number of times God asked Moses to strike the rock?

In other words, was God being specific in His will when He told Moses how many times to strike the rock?

Finally, can we conclude that God was being specific in His will in the life of Moses when God told Moses to:

1) strike the rock
2) how many times to strike the rock?

Can you find other examples in the word of God where God gives very specific instructions concerning His will for a person? I can. Many in fact.

It is also a very bad idea to follow this "voice" or stirring or whatever you call it inside of you. People who say they "hear" things from God inside of them assign divine authority to their own thoughts, and that is dangerous. Everything that God has to say to us is already said in the Bible.

I'm sorry but you are terribly mistaken. While we must be very careful and it can be very dangerous and many have gone off course in thinking they have heard from God. I myself have heard from God aside from His written word.

However, while I do not need your approval or confirmation of this, I also understand that since this has never occurred for you, it is not a requirement for you to believe in order to have a real relationship with God. As well however, your denial of it does in no way diminish the reality of it in my life or negate my personal experiences with it.

I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. I realized that I can do WHATEVER I want to in this life within the Bible's bounds. ANYTHING. I can pursue whatever job I would enjoy doing, I can pursue anything I want to, and nothing can stop me. I will definitely have obstacles, but that's okay because I know the truth. I don't care if I fail 1000 times for something, that goal, that dream is mine because I'm pursuing it and not giving up.

And at the same time you seem to be ignoring Jeremiah 29:11 and the terribly obvious working out of God's will in both the great and the lesser details in so many of the living examples in His word.

I have never been braver in my life. I'm approaching strangers, both men and women :) and talking to them like good friends. I'm standing up for myself at work; I'm thinking for myself, I've killed my anxiety problems I used to have. ALL because I asked God for help and actually taking the initiative to do it.

So my point is, there is no such thing as a specific will for our lives. We have freedom to pursue our interests, and God is not going to punish us if we pick school A instead of school B and so on. I hope a lot of people read this and understand the truth, and gain some confidence, not living lives trapped inside a cage because they're araid of what's outside of it.

In wrapping this up then, I want to say that I believe you should pursue schooling or a career that does in fact interest you. However, you should note that many before you have done exactly that, but God then spoke quite clearly to them, in different ways as God is wont to do, and quite changed the direction of their lives. I'm thinking specifically now of many ministers and missionaries and evangelists. But this is also true of many others in other pursuits in life.

In the end, it is God that has a plan and purpose for our lives and if we simply humbly and truthfully seek His will, and until He reveals that will pursue what interests us, providing it is good, God will work out the details to bring about His will.

Never think God is not in the mundane and little details of our lives. Where we often see no evidence of God is where we can rest assured God is at work. God is the God of the great and the small. If He was not the God of the small, He'd not be interested in you at all because you are very small and insignificant in the great order of the universe. I am too. And yet God has taken a great interest in you and has declared that you are not insignificant to Him.

On final thought if I may. If God is not interested in the minutiae, the little details, the specifics, then why does God know the number of hairs on your head? Why then does God bottle your tears? Why then does God keep a record of every idle word you utter?

Vhayes
Apr 10th 2010, 03:44 PM
Trance, here's the way I look at it. This is me, so know that i have been wrong in the past.

When my children were young, I allowed them to choose what they would wear each day. They helped put the clothes away when they were laundered so they knew where to find them. There were mistakes made along the way but lessons were leaned from those mistakes - like the time our daughter (4 at the time) put in a tee-shirt under a flannel shirt with a pair of knee socks, jeans and cowboy boots. In August. To go outside and play. i watched her from the window as she ran and played and observed her "wilting" bit by bit. I finally called to her and asked if she wanted a glass of water. When she came in, I asked if she though maybe putting on shorts and a short sleeved shirt would make it easier to run and play. She looked all quizzical for a minute and then went upstairs and changed her clothes.

On the other hand, if we were going somewhere that dress was an issue, I would pull a couple of things out and lay them on the bed and tell them to decide which of THOSE items they would wear.

I never, ever once DIDN'T care about my children, I just cared enough to let them make their own mistakes or to express their own individuality. I feel God does the same with us. As long as we're "dressed" and know where to find the items, He allows us choices. I think He already KNOWS the choices we will make, He just does not force us into those choices.

Now - have a I thoroughly confused you? ;-)
V

Athanasius
Apr 10th 2010, 04:14 PM
Isn't it just easier to say that generally speaking we're free to make our own choices, but that there are situations where God does have a specific will for "some thing" in our lives, or our lives directly? Rather than saying that God's specific will "DOESN'T EXIST" or that God's specific will exists to the point where we have no choices? I don't know, there are a lot of good replies in this thread... But I get the sense that these 8 pages have been, so far, fairly absurd.

Vhayes
Apr 10th 2010, 04:27 PM
Isn't it just easier to say that generally speaking we're free to make our own choices, but that there are situations where God does have a specific will for "some thing" in our lives, or our lives directly? Rather than saying that God's specific will "DOESN'T EXIST" or that God's specific will exists to the point where we have no choices? I don't know, there are a lot of good replies in this thread... But I get the sense that these 8 pages have been, so far, fairly absurd.

What may appear absurd to you could be a way of opening a new way of looking at something. What may appear erudite to you could indeed be absurd to others. We all approach things differently - that doesn't mean it's absurd.

Athanasius
Apr 10th 2010, 04:34 PM
What may appear absurd to you could be a way of opening a new way of looking at something. What may appear erudite to you could indeed be absurd to others. We all approach things differently - that doesn't mean it's absurd.

Of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't absurd either. Like I said, there are some good posts... But I don't know about the rest of them. Things seem to have settled since the OP clarified himself, but I still can't decide which pant leg to put on first, or if the voice telling me "left" is my heart's answer or God's answer.

Trance
Apr 10th 2010, 04:59 PM
Okay, so I have a better understanding how God always knows what's going to happen next because he's in control of everything. I understand also that God speaks to people in different ways. To some he speaks to them inside silently, to others like me he doesn't, and that doesn't make me any less Christian.

I think people give up too easily on a goal after facing a few obstacles because they somehow conclude that God doesn't want them to attain that goal. God's specific will for Thomas Edison was to invent the lightbulb, am I correct? It took Tom 1,000 tries to find the right filament for the light bulb to work, so all those failed attempts, what were they, these mythical closed doors? Say that amidst his attempts to find the filament, he asked God if he should keep doing this, and he tried to listen to the holy spirit, and he had a thought that said, "I have greater plans for you, my ways are not your ways, I'm closing this door on you." He would have interpreted this line of thinking [very popular today in modern churches] as a call to move on to some other activity.

moonglow
Apr 10th 2010, 05:06 PM
Of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't absurd either. Like I said, there are some good posts... But I don't know about the rest of them. Things seem to have settled since the OP clarified himself, but I still can't decide which pant leg to put on first, or if the voice telling me "left" is my heart's answer or God's answer.

Actually there was a time when I was lost I asked God which way to go..I was driving..and He said turn left and I found what I was looking for...:lol:

moonglow
Apr 10th 2010, 05:16 PM
Okay, so I have a better understanding how God always knows what's going to happen next because he's in control of everything. I understand also that God speaks to people in different ways. To some he speaks to them inside silently, to others like me he doesn't, and that doesn't make me any less Christian.

I think people give up too easily on a goal after facing a few obstacles because they somehow conclude that God doesn't want them to attain that goal. God's specific will for Thomas Edison was to invent the lightbulb, am I correct? It took Tom 1,000 tries to find the right filament for the light bulb to work, so all those failed attempts, what were they, these mythical closed doors? Say that amidst his attempts to find the filament, he asked God if he should keep doing this, and he tried to listen to the holy spirit, and he had a thought that said, "I have greater plans for you, my ways are not your ways, I'm closing this door on you." He would have interpreted this line of thinking [very popular today in modern churches] as a call to move on to some other activity.

Everyday and every person and situation is different. For most of my life I didn't hear God..which I yearned too. But He still managed to talk to me through things happening..through people..

One time I was going through a terrible situation with my son and had been praying about it for a long time. I listened to the Christian radio station when I got the chance and more often then not the sermon or talk seemed to be directly addressing some of my questions or concerns.

One time I was sitting on the floor watching TV with my son and noticed a postcard on the floor. My mom and her husband had gone to Alaska on a missionary trip and had sent us that postcard. Well I had never looked at the back of it. It had fallen off the coffee table and flipped over and there was a bible verse on it that truly was directly addressing the situation I was going through. That postcard then lead to a chain of events could not in a million years just be a coincidence and it lead me to being able to help my son. So God did answer me. Just not in a booming voice or a burning bush but it was still just as miraculous.

Sometimes He is helping with the little things in our lives, like me getting lost driving...its not just the big things. The main thing is to be open to watching for those signs from Him...rarely does He just speak to people's minds...instead He puts things in our path that nothing else could explain. We know its from Him.

God bless

Athanasius
Apr 10th 2010, 05:45 PM
Actually there was a time when I was lost I asked God which way to go..I was driving..and He said turn left and I found what I was looking for...:lol:

Well that deserves an amen! But I don't think it's the sort of will being discussed.


Okay, so I have a better understanding how God always knows what's going to happen next because he's in control of everything. I understand also that God speaks to people in different ways. To some he speaks to them inside silently, to others like me he doesn't, and that doesn't make me any less Christian.

Are you saying that there are Christians God doesn't speak to?



I think people give up too easily on a goal after facing a few obstacles because they somehow conclude that God doesn't want them to attain that goal. God's specific will for Thomas Edison was to invent the lightbulb, am I correct? It took Tom 1,000 tries to find the right filament for the light bulb to work, so all those failed attempts, what were they, these mythical closed doors? Say that amidst his attempts to find the filament, he asked God if he should keep doing this, and he tried to listen to the holy spirit, and he had a thought that said, "I have greater plans for you, my ways are not your ways, I'm closing this door on you." He would have interpreted this line of thinking [very popular today in modern churches] as a call to move on to some other activity.

I don't know what God's specific will for Thomas Edison was; maybe God's specific will for Thomas Edison was to mock, demonize and harass Nikola Tesla--who knows (but, probably not). I think the "problem" with many Christians - and it is a serious problem - is that they don't know God's voice, and shouldn't we? So instead we settle for, "Well, I can't discern between my thoughts and Gods; the Holy Spirit's leading and my hearts leading--it's hopeless!" I mean, it doesn't come overnight, and it's probably initially a very difficult thing, but I don't think there is any excuse for a Christian to say "I don't know God's voice", and whether or not God is revealing His "specific will" or not, there's no excuse.

moonglow
Apr 10th 2010, 05:54 PM
Xel'Naga


Originally Posted by moonglow
Actually there was a time when I was lost I asked God which way to go..I was driving..and He said turn left and I found what I was looking for...


Well that deserves an amen! But I don't think it's the sort of will being discussed.

I know but what you said here made me think of that:


Xel'Naga


Of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't absurd either. Like I said, there are some good posts... But I don't know about the rest of them. Things seem to have settled since the OP clarified himself, but I still can't decide which pant leg to put on first, or if the voice telling me "left" is my heart's answer or God's answer.

And I was making a point..that sometimes God does guide us in minor things also simply because He cares about us. :)

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 10th 2010, 05:54 PM
Well that deserves an amen! But I don't think it's the sort of will being discussed.



Are you saying that there are Christians God doesn't speak to?



I don't know what God's specific will for Thomas Edison was; maybe God's specific will for Thomas Edison was to mock, demonize and harass Nikola Tesla--who knows (but, probably not). I think the "problem" with many Christians - and it is a serious problem - is that they don't know God's voice, and shouldn't we? So instead we settle for, "Well, I can't discern between my thoughts and Gods; the Holy Spirit's leading and my hearts leading--it's hopeless!" I mean, it doesn't come overnight, and it's probably initially a very difficult thing, but I don't think there is any excuse for a Christian to say "I don't know God's voice", and whether or not God is revealing His "specific will" or not, there's no excuse.

Xel -- I think that we all question God's voice at one time or another. I've been walking with the Lord for about 4 years now, and even still, I struggle with whether or not the voice I hear is God's or my own. I know that sounds horrible, but I'm not so sure -- I know that my questioning stems from the fact that I love God, and that I desperately want to please Him -- so badly, in fact, that I often worry whether or not the voice I am hearing regarding a specific direction is my own or the Lord's.

That isn't an entirely bad thing, is it?! If so, I have a lot of repenting to do.

Trance
Apr 10th 2010, 06:03 PM
I don't know what God's specific will for Thomas Edison was; maybe God's specific will for Thomas Edison was to mock, demonize and harass Nikola Tesla--who knows (but, probably not). I think the "problem" with many Christians - and it is a serious problem - is that they don't know God's voice, and shouldn't we? So instead we settle for, "Well, I can't discern between my thoughts and Gods; the Holy Spirit's leading and my hearts leading--it's hopeless!" I mean, it doesn't come overnight, and it's probably initially a very difficult thing, but I don't think there is any excuse for a Christian to say "I don't know God's voice", and whether or not God is revealing His "specific will" or not, there's no excuse.

It's not that hard to hear God. The holy spirit is our conscience, which tells us what's sinful and what's godly. Like I said before, when Saul was killing and persecuting Christians, God still spoke to him, and loudly. I don't have to fast for 40 days and go high up into the mountains to train my mind to be able to tune in to some tiny frequency in my mind to hear some tiny voice.

BroRog
Apr 10th 2010, 06:04 PM
Xel -- I think that we all question God's voice at one time or another. I've been walking with the Lord for about 4 years now, and even still, I struggle with whether or not the voice I hear is God's or my own. I know that sounds horrible, but I'm not so sure -- I know that my questioning stems from the fact that I love God, and that I desperately want to please Him -- so badly, in fact, that I often worry whether or not the voice I am hearing regarding a specific direction is my own or the Lord's.

That isn't an entirely bad thing, is it?! If so, I have a lot of repenting to do.I personally don't think that God talks to everyone and neither is it that common. If God is actually talking to you, remember the experience of Samuel who heard the voice of the Lord but thought it was the voice of Eli until Eli explained it to him. I say this to encourage you to not be disheartened if you make mistakes along the way.

BadDog
Apr 10th 2010, 08:24 PM
I discovered something so awesome, so supremely awesome, something that is full of hope, energy, and possibilities, something that has no limitations and has no bounds. It is this: God has given us freedom in Christ, a freedom where we as believers are free to pursue godly goals that glorify God and reach out to others. Yeah, it sounds obvious, right, but there's so much to this beneath the surface. Let me explain.

Every conceivable thing that we aspire to do, from raising our arm to reach for a pencil to working towards a Ph.D, these are all things called goals. Goals can be physical ones like these, and they can also be mental, like changing a personality flaw. We all have goals, and we all work for some type of goal, big and small. But what's all this I hear about God having some "specific" plan for us? How specific is this? You see, I keep hearing from people that I am supposed to make sure God approves a specific job or goal I pursue, making sure that I do something that is hidden in his will somewhere, and if I don't find it, I'm getting second-best. These people say these things, but where's the boundary? How important does the goal have to be where I'm going to have to ask for this divine guidance? God doesn't care what color toothbrush I buy at Jewel, so why would he care which job I take or which car I buy, as long as all of these satisfy the requirements of following Christ and not sinning?

This whole idea of God's specific will is erroneous to say the least. Many people fall prey to this belief, living a limited life inside a closed box, inside these make-believe closed doors people are putting in themselves, and giving God the credit for creating obstacles in their path.

It is also a very bad idea to follow this "voice" or stirring or whatever you call it inside of you. People who say they "hear" things from God inside of them assign divine authority to their own thoughts, and that is dangerous. Everything that God has to say to us is already said in the Bible.

I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. I realized that I can do WHATEVER I want to in this life within the Bible's bounds. ANYTHING. I can pursue whatever job I would enjoy doing, I can pursue anything I want to, and nothing can stop me. I will definitely have obstacles, but that's okay because I know the truth. I don't care if I fail 1000 times for something, that goal, that dream is mine because I'm pursuing it and not giving up.

I have never been braver in my life. I'm approaching strangers, both men and women :) and talking to them like good friends. I'm standing up for myself at work; I'm thinking for myself, I've killed my anxiety problems I used to have. ALL because I asked God for help and actually taking the initiative to do it.

So my point is, there is no such thing as a specific will for our lives. We have freedom to pursue our interests, and God is not going to punish us if we pick school A instead of school B and so on. I hope a lot of people read this and understand the truth, and gain some confidence, not living lives trapped inside a cage because they're araid of what's outside of it.Trance,

I see that you received some flack from this. Let me just say that I agree with you. Perhaps some people aren't clear about what you mean by "God's specific will." Let me express it this way:

God's expressed will is made clear from scripture. You have freedom, if something does not violate something expressly stated in the Bible, to pursue your desires, as God leads.

I add on "as God leads," because IMO God does lead us. But it is not some game in which we are to try to decifer what God would have us do, as some Bull's eye. It is not a matter of God's perfect will and His permissive will. But we are accountable for our actions. Sometimes I do what I believe is the best, but looking back on things, I see that I could have chosen more wisely.

Incidentally, the underlined part above in your post I say "amen" to. The bold-underlined portion - well, we have to be careful that people do not think by such that we mean that God does not direct us outside of His written Word. We do need to be careful about searching for some mystical, emotional, vaporous guidance. But God can guide outside of His Word. Specifically, God has given each of us a conscience, and several verses refer to how we should be sensitive to God's working through it.

You may want to read a classic:

Decision Making and the Will of God, by Gary Friessen.

Here's another one which lists three views on determining God's will - a point and clounterpoint approach:

How Then Should We Choose? edited by Douglas S. Huffman.

Here are some other well known theologians who hold to your position (and mine):

Bruce Waltke, Oliver Barclay, Morris Ashcraft, Harry Blamires, Robin Maxson, Os. Guinness, J Grant Howard, Ron Kincaid, John MacArthur, Gary T Meadors, JI Packer, James C Petty, Haddon Robinson, Gerald Sittser, Blaine Smith, Knofel Stanton, and Dave Swavely.

There are many, many others who hold to such a position, as opposed to the specific-will view, that are not listed... but each of the above have published specifically supporting your position regarding God's will. So please do not feel like your position is strange, rare, or in some way unbiblical. Almost every text used by those who hold to the specific-will view have been taken out of context. Friessen's book has an appendix dealing with them in detail.

And you're right... it really frees us up to serve Christ with joy, and without becoming introspective.

Take care,

BD

Athanasius
Apr 10th 2010, 08:57 PM
Xel'Naga

I know but what you said here made me think of that:

And I was making a point..that sometimes God does guide us in minor things also simply because He cares about us. :)

Absolutely :)

Trance
Apr 10th 2010, 10:53 PM
Decision Making and the Will of God, by Gary Friessen.



I checked out Greg Koukl's MP3s where he has a seminar based on this book. Those are awesome. I still have yet to check out the book.

Bladers
Apr 10th 2010, 11:19 PM
It's not that hard to hear God. The holy spirit is our conscience, which tells us what's sinful and what's godly. Like I said before, when Saul was killing and persecuting Christians, God still spoke to him, and loudly. I don't have to fast for 40 days and go high up into the mountains to train my mind to be able to tune in to some tiny frequency in my mind to hear some tiny voice.

Actually, You Do... Why did you think Jesus went up the Mountain and prayed for long hours?
and Everyday he would go to a quiet place early and pray long hours and get instructions from the Father for what to do that day.

I think the problem is, We think we can hear God anytime we want. Like a buzzer we push and say, Father where are you? But though God is always Speaking and always trying to lead us to the right direction, We can't hear him or see his signature in situations unless we tune out of the flesh and the world. And tune into our spirit in prayer, because that's where God speaks.

The Voice of God can be likened to a radio. There are thousands of people talking at this very moment all around you. But you can't hear them. But when you turn on your radio and tune into a specific radio frequency. Only then can you hear.

Just Like God!
:pray: ~Praise you Jesus~

edit: ("I know we are living in a Microwave Generation where people don't want to pray and persevere, they want it Hot and Ready. But the kingdom of God is not like Burger King, you don't have it your way!")

Trance
Apr 10th 2010, 11:33 PM
Actually, You Do... Why did you think Jesus went up the Mountain and prayed for long hours?
and Everyday he would go to a quiet place early and pray long hours and get instructions from the Father for what to do that day.

I think the problem is, We think we can hear God anytime we want. Like a buzzer we push and say, Father where are you? But though God is always Speaking and always trying to lead us to the right direction, We can't hear him or see his signature in situations unless we tune out of the flesh and the world. And tune into our spirit in prayer, because that's where God speaks.

The Voice of God can be likened to a radio. There are thousands of people talking at this very moment all around you. But you can't hear them. But when you turn on your radio and tune into a specific radio frequency. Only then can you hear.

Just Like God!
:pray: ~Praise you Jesus~

edit: ("I know we are living in a micro-wave generation where people don't want to pray and persevere, they want it Hot and Ready. But the kingdom of God is not like Burger King, you don't have it your way!")

Ha, now that I think of it, God told me today to do my laundry, go to the park and hang out with my friends, then come back home and take a shower. Now God is telling me to continue this discussion. But wait, was all this my will or his will?

Bladers
Apr 10th 2010, 11:40 PM
Ha, now that I think of it, God told me today to do my laundry, go to the park and hang out with my friends, then come back home and take a shower. Now God is telling me to continue this discussion. But wait, was all this my will or his will?

If God told you, then you would recognize his voice immediately as he spoke and acknowledge it and wouldn't have to ask...
But since you asked then God didn't talk to you!
God doesn't have time for foolishness, When He talks, he talks straight up and for a divine purpose!

Trance
Apr 10th 2010, 11:49 PM
If God told you, then you would recognize his voice immediately as he spoke and acknowledge it and wouldn't have to ask...
But since you asked then God didn't talk to you!
God doesn't have time for foolishness, When He talks, he talks straight up and for a divine purpose!

Of course. Right now God told me not to worry and that I don't have to listen to everybody's opinion.

Athanasius
Apr 10th 2010, 11:51 PM
Ha, now that I think of it, God told me today to do my laundry, go to the park and hang out with my friends, then come back home and take a shower. Now God is telling me to continue this discussion. But wait, was all this my will or his will?

Is that really conducive to the conversation? Now, I disagree with Bladers a lot, and we both misunderstand each other quite often (cheeky: well, him more than me)--but this sort of reply, well, it makes the thread absurd (as I was previously saying). You might not think God guides you in everything - and I'm not saying anything either way - but to go to this sort of extreme, sarcasm or not, isn't really going to get anyone anywhere, is it? I mean, no one is making the sort of claim you're addressing (I don't think, and I didn't see Bladers make it), so I don't know why this is the straw man you and others are knocking down (I understand that HisLeast is asking questions, but his questions really aren't all that hard to answer the majority of the time).

moonglow
Apr 11th 2010, 02:12 AM
Ha, now that I think of it, God told me today to do my laundry, go to the park and hang out with my friends, then come back home and take a shower. Now God is telling me to continue this discussion. But wait, was all this my will or his will?

I am confused. Why are you saying this to Blader when you just said its not that hard to hear God yourself? You posted this:


Originally Posted by Trance
It's not that hard to hear God. The holy spirit is our conscience, which tells us what's sinful and what's godly. Like I said before, when Saul was killing and persecuting Christians, God still spoke to him, and loudly. I don't have to fast for 40 days and go high up into the mountains to train my mind to be able to tune in to some tiny frequency in my mind to hear some tiny voice.

Now it seems like you are mocking his comments which to me appeared to just go along with yours. :confused

What adds to the confusion too is earlier in the thread you talked like no one hears God anymore, they just think they do but its their own thoughts...then you told someone on here 'its not that hard to hear God' in the above quote.

...so which is it? Do you think its easy to hear God or not?

Trance
Apr 11th 2010, 02:56 AM
Now it seems like you are mocking his comments which to me appeared to just go along with yours. :confused

What adds to the confusion too is earlier in the thread you talked like no one hears God anymore, they just think they do but its their own thoughts...then you told someone on here 'its not that hard to hear God' in the above quote.

...so which is it? Do you think its easy to hear God or not?

What I meant is that it's easy to hear God because the holy spirit enables us to discern moral right from wrong. I was being sarcastic when I replied to Blade's post.

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 02:58 AM
I checked out Greg Koukl's MP3s where he has a seminar based on this book. Those are awesome. I still have yet to check out the book.Trance,

You can get a copy at a low cost through Amazon. Also, that other book is nice as it has the three main views prevalent today. A guru for each view presents his position (Friesen handles the wisdom position), and the other two point out the issues they see. I like those point/counterpoint books. BTW, in that book Friesen had far more scripture to support his position than the other two guys.

Here's Friesen's overview:

Where God commands, we must obey.
Where there is no command, God gives us freedom (and responsibility) to choose.
Where there is no command, God gives us wisdom to choose.
When we have chosen what is moral and wise, we must trust the sovereign God to work all the details together for good.

Romans 8:28 clearly applies for point #4.

The traditional view teaches that God has some ideal plan (perfect will) for each decision we make. Most people, whether they are willing to admit it or not, acknowledge that we cannot possibly have to stop to make decisions for every little opportunity in life... "Where should I park?", "Should I take the stairs or the elevator?", "What should I eat for breakfast," and on and on. Many say that it is the significant, major decisions where we should look to God for specific guidance.

But I have to ask, where does it say that God has a specific plan, which we should look for, for every decision in life? Chapter/verse? And where do we draw the line? Which decisions require God's knowing God's will?

We need to distinguish what we are referring to when we talk about God's will. There is His moral will - that which is specifically delineated in scripture. Should I date this nonbeliever? "Do not be unequally yoked." There is God's sovereign will. "Should I buy a 1 million dollar home?" Oh, God has not blessed me with lots of money. Or, "should I have a baby?" Oh, I'm a man. Hmmm, must not be God's sovereign will for me. :D

But then much of Christianity adds on God's individual will. And God is at work in our lives as individuals. But where in scripture are we employed to seek for this individual will? The idea that God will guide us and guarantee foolproof decisions if we're in tune with Him is a modern view - starting in the mid 19th century. George Muller was the first person to write about determining God's will. You won't find any writings on it before him. Someone list anything earlier.

Proverbs 3:5, 6 is often used as a prooftext. But read it, especially in a modern translation. In the OT "paths" are understood as the general course of life. (See Proverbs 4:18, 19.) That's just not what it says. God does work in our lives. He does guide as well. But we do not need to discover some perfect, individual will. The Bible does not teach that. You can find lots of scripture regarding God's moral and sovereign will, but not an individual will. How can anyone find scriptures which talk about this--something that doesn't exist--if the Bible doesn't address it?

I do not believe that the Bible teaches us to seek guidance from aliens. But can I list a single text that says this? Uh, of course not, because the Bible doesn't address it. So the burden of proof must lie with those who hold to such a position.

Proverbs 11:5 The righteousness of the blameless clears his path, but the wicked person will fall because of his wickedness.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart [mind] plans his way, but the Lord determines [directs] his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, but the Lord's decree will prevail.

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are determined by the Lord, so how can anyone understand his own way?

As these verses make clear, yes, God is intimately involved in our lives. He is sovereign. But that does not mean that He is looking for us to determine what His secret plan is. He wants us to follow His will as outlined in scripture, and trust that He will work in the circumstances. (Romans 8:28) To be led by the Spirit is simple: we should put to death the deeds of the body/flesh, and instead obey God's revealed will. That is to walk by the Spirit. IMO it's similar to John's "walking in the light" in 1 John 1 (where light refers to righteousness). God reveals sin in our lives, we confess it (acknowledge it, call it "sin," as God does) and press on, knowing that we are in fellowship with God.

My issue with the perfect will view is that it leads to introspection, and a lack of just trusting that God is at work in our lives. When bad things happen, we pray about it, knowing that it was no surprise to God, that he loves us and works in ALL THINGS for good in our lives. If we see where we haven't been living wise, we take responsibility for that too - we confess it - acknowledge it before God. It's too easy to say that God is not leading this or that way in our lives, when maybe we are just lazy. Let's be responsible for our actions, and for our walks with the Lord.

Sorry... got carried away.

BD

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 03:01 AM
Let's not confuse this with having fellowship with God (1 John 1:3), developing a close, rich, intimate relationship. The idea of the wisdom view is that we should press ahead following God's revealed will, and trust that God is working.

BD

moonglow
Apr 11th 2010, 03:26 AM
What I meant is that it's easy to hear God because the holy spirit enables us to discern moral right from wrong. I was being sarcastic when I replied to Blade's post.

Ok but why were you being sarcastic about his posts? To me that means you didn't agree with him..yet your other posts it appears you did. When you brought up Saul, Jesus did much more then just convict him he was in the wrong..he directed his life from that day forward. We see in his life the Holy Spirit telling him where to go and what to do and when to even flee certain places..so to me, that is what you were agreeing with..how God directs our lives like Saul/Paul. :confused

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 03:42 AM
Hello Moonglow!

Well, I had some free time this week, but that will soon be gone. :P

I think I'll just comment that the specific leading for the Apostle Paul was not a common thing - even for him. It does happen, but it is rare. It was rare in OT times, and in NT times as well. We should not expect God to lead that way everytime, or even often. I remember when I was in the army a strong impression for me to get in line for platoon guide/squad leader training. I did not want to do it. But I am sure He was at work. It ended up being a very critical decision for my life. But that is very rare. I do not expect God to impress me with what to do all the time. I am not looking for that. I do not believe that is biblical. This is probably how Trance sees it. But I am looking to walk closely with God, daily. I am not sayiong that impressions about what God is doing in our livesw is not wrong... but let's recognize that God just wants us to trust him.

I see that Trance is pretty new here, and so probably somewhat new to posting on Christian forums. But I think this is a good thread, and I'm glad he started it.

Thx Trance. I believe that many wrong teachings about God's leading has hurt and confused many believers.

Take care,

BD

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 04:07 AM
Let me give a specific example.

I recently was counseling a young man who had been dating a young woman for 2 years. Both were very godly. He told her that God had told him that they would eventually be married. She responded that God hadn't told her any such thing. A few weeks later she broke up with him. He was convinced that God had spoken to him about her, and that he should talk with her about it. I do not see how it could have been, since it does not follow wise counsel from scripture in interrelating with people.

I had given him Friesen's book when he shared what he'd told her with me. I encouraged him to read it. He's started, but not finished. I talked with him again this past week. I do not want him to become discouraged that God desires to know him intimately. But he needs to trust God, and not look for some mystic guidance, that is not biblical (IMO).

He's a godly young man. I know that he is hurt. I have tried to encourage him that God does love him and is working for good in his life. From our perspective, we just make decisions. But from God's perspective, He works in all circumstances in our lives - for good. Always. The wisdom view is not some sterile walk. It is an intimate walk with God. But God has given us freedom to choose good things, according to His moral will as revealed in scripture. From His perspective, He is sovereign. We must trust Him. I want this young man to see that if this does not work out (she started dating someone else, then broke it off) that God has something better for him.

IMO the kind of thinking that this man was following has led him down a dangerous path. I know he is confused, and emotionally hurt - esp. regarding the Lord's working. But he is a very mature and committed young man. The wisdom walk is one of trusting our Lord step by step.

As you think about it, I would appreciate prayer for him. We're quite close, as well, so this is bothering me as well.

BD

Trance
Apr 11th 2010, 04:22 AM
That's awesome, BadDog. Thanks for your encouraging posts.

For some reason I've been gripped with so much desire to search for the truth, to have a better understanding of God and his word. I've been posting here as well as reading articles about this issue online and talking to people about it. I'm also noticing something else.

I know for a fact we have to live Christ-centered lives, where we have to answer to God for everything. It is in my opinion that some Christians elevate themselves to such high piety, thinking that everything in the world that God created is fleshly and we shouldn't pursue it. I know that we should seek God and God only, but they think that pursuing careers or desires (non-sinful ones) are worldly and evil. These people think it's evil to try to reach our full potential, because they think it's selfish.

Vhayes
Apr 11th 2010, 04:29 AM
Trance, it's only sinful to pursue your best if you put that above God - make an idol of it. If God is first in your life, then all else will fall into place. If you put your spouse or you profession or your children or your pastor or food or, or, or before God - it's a sin pure and simple.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 11th 2010, 11:18 AM
Trance,

You can get a copy at a low cost through Amazon. Also, that other book is nice as it has the three main views prevalent today. A guru for each view presents his position (Friesen handles the wisdom position), and the other two point out the issues they see. I like those point/counterpoint books. BTW, in that book Friesen had far more scripture to support his position than the other two guys.

Here's Friesen's overview:

Where God commands, we must obey.
Where there is no command, God gives us freedom (and responsibility) to choose.
Where there is no command, God gives us wisdom to choose.
When we have chosen what is moral and wise, we must trust the sovereign God to work all the details together for good.

Romans 8:28 clearly applies for point #4.

The traditional view teaches that God has some ideal plan (perfect will) for each decision we make. Most people, whether they are willing to admit it or not, acknowledge that we cannot possibly have to stop to make decisions for every little opportunity in life... "Where should I park?", "Should I take the stairs or the elevator?", "What should I eat for breakfast," and on and on. Many say that it is the significant, major decisions where we should look to God for specific guidance.

But I have to ask, where does it say that God has a specific plan, which we should look for, for every decision in life? Chapter/verse? And where do we draw the line? Which decisions require God's knowing God's will?

We need to distinguish what we are referring to when we talk about God's will. There is His moral will - that which is specifically delineated in scripture. Should I date this nonbeliever? "Do not be unequally yoked." There is God's sovereign will. "Should I buy a 1 million dollar home?" Oh, God has not blessed me with lots of money. Or, "should I have a baby?" Oh, I'm a man. Hmmm, must not be God's sovereign will for me. :D

But then much of Christianity adds on God's individual will. And God is at work in our lives as individuals. But where in scripture are we employed to seek for this individual will? The idea that God will guide us and guarantee foolproof decisions if we're in tune with Him is a modern view - starting in the mid 19th century. George Muller was the first person to write about determining God's will. You won't find any writings on it before him. Someone list anything earlier.

Proverbs 3:5, 6 is often used as a prooftext. But read it, especially in a modern translation. In the OT "paths" are understood as the general course of life. (See Proverbs 4:18, 19.) That's just not what it says. God does work in our lives. He does guide as well. But we do not need to discover some perfect, individual will. The Bible does not teach that. You can find lots of scripture regarding God's moral and sovereign will, but not an individual will. How can anyone find scriptures which talk about this--something that doesn't exist--if the Bible doesn't address it?

I do not believe that the Bible teaches us to seek guidance from aliens. But can I list a single text that says this? Uh, of course not, because the Bible doesn't address it. So the burden of proof must lie with those who hold to such a position.

Proverbs 11:5 The righteousness of the blameless clears his path, but the wicked person will fall because of his wickedness.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart [mind] plans his way, but the Lord determines [directs] his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, but the Lord's decree will prevail.

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are determined by the Lord, so how can anyone understand his own way?

As these verses make clear, yes, God is intimately involved in our lives. He is sovereign. But that does not mean that He is looking for us to determine what His secret plan is. He wants us to follow His will as outlined in scripture, and trust that He will work in the circumstances. (Romans 8:28) To be led by the Spirit is simple: we should put to death the deeds of the body/flesh, and instead obey God's revealed will. That is to walk by the Spirit. IMO it's similar to John's "walking in the light" in 1 John 1 (where light refers to righteousness). God reveals sin in our lives, we confess it (acknowledge it, call it "sin," as God does) and press on, knowing that we are in fellowship with God.

My issue with the perfect will view is that it leads to introspection, and a lack of just trusting that God is at work in our lives. When bad things happen, we pray about it, knowing that it was no surprise to God, that he loves us and works in ALL THINGS for good in our lives. If we see where we haven't been living wise, we take responsibility for that too - we confess it - acknowledge it before God. It's too easy to say that God is not leading this or that way in our lives, when maybe we are just lazy. Let's be responsible for our actions, and for our walks with the Lord.

Sorry... got carried away.

BD

A good post that bears repeating.

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2010, 12:35 PM
I see this conversation is still going on. :) A personal testimony that relates well I think, to both sides of the equation. I remember getting ready to buy my first house. I asked the Lord about buying one and which one to buy. He said clearly "Be wise". It frustrated me because I wanted him to tell me what to do. I told him I was being wise by asking the wisest being I knew. I kept asking him and I kept getting the same exact response "be wise". I didn't know it at the time but I had trouble making decisions and God was dealing with me about that. He was teaching me the freedom I had in the Lord that Trance keeps talking about. But learning to hear God had made such an impact on my life I wanted to hear him for everything!

Hearing God is important. Understanding the freedom we have in Christ is important. There are two things God has taught me about this subject that are important, imo. 1. We have far more freedom under "whatsoever you do, do unto the Lord" than I realized. 2. God is not bashful to speak. I can go about my day and pray to him and commune with him often. If he has something specific for me, he tells me. Most of the time, his lessons to me are spiritual, general and not so much specific when it comes to daily routine (what to eat, wear, etc.) However, there have been times when he was very specific. "Give X amount to Y person". Or to my friend one time "Go to the arcade". When my friend went to the arcade, there was a policeman there that had heard him preach and needed to see him again. The policeman got saved. What if my friend had not listened to that word?

Anyway, I see it as both/and in this thread. Adam had freedom to eat any fruit he wanted to eat except one. We too have many options God has placed in front of us.

I guess another way to explain it is with children. When children go outside to play, they know the parameters. "Don't leave the yard" or "don't get close to the street". So long as they play inside of those parameters, mom and dad are fine. On occasion, mom or dad will call the kid and give them specific instruction like "Go clean you room" or "put that hammer up you dropped in the yard" or "we're going to the lake go get ready". But most of the day (in the summer time) the kids are allowed to just play with parents giving the occasional specific command throughout the day. I think God is similar in what he does with us. Jesus only did what the Father told him to do. Kids can play all day long and still say "I have only done what my parents have told me to do." Why? Because they laid down general rules of engagement.

Thing is, we miss out on much if we get too far in either ditch. If we just play by the general rules, then we miss out on some wonderful miracles that God will work around, in and through us. If we try to get a word on every thing from what to wear to what to eat, we will find ourselves in bondage and unable to make a decision. Balance in this is a good thing, I think.

Grace to you all,

Mark

Slug1
Apr 11th 2010, 12:57 PM
Thing is, we miss out on much if we get too far in either ditch. If we just play by the general rules, then we miss out on some wonderful miracles that God will work around, in and through us. If we try to get a word on every thing from what to wear to what to eat, we will find ourselves in bondage and unable to make a decision. Balance in this is a good thing, I think.

Grace to you all,

MarkAarrggg, I still can't rep ya!!

Balance, concerning this aspect of our relationship with God is needed as this enables us to be effective in the Kingdom of God. God can micro-manage all He wants but then we'd not be growing in our relationship with Him. Also, if He did micro-manage then we'd never experience those trials that we need to prepare us for purpose.

We need to be able to make mistakes, or in your testimony, make our own "wise" choice... otherwise God will never be able to step in and guide us or enable us to make the proper choice based on all He's already showed us.... thus teaching us how to listen to Him and also teaching us how to trust Him.

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2010, 01:17 PM
I discovered something so awesome, so supremely awesome, something that is full of hope, energy, and possibilities, something that has no limitations and has no bounds. It is this: God has given us freedom in Christ, a freedom where we as believers are free to pursue godly goals that glorify God and reach out to others. Yeah, it sounds obvious, right, but there's so much to this beneath the surface. Let me explain.

Every conceivable thing that we aspire to do, from raising our arm to reach for a pencil to working towards a Ph.D, these are all things called goals. Goals can be physical ones like these, and they can also be mental, like changing a personality flaw. We all have goals, and we all work for some type of goal, big and small. But what's all this I hear about God having some "specific" plan for us? How specific is this? You see, I keep hearing from people that I am supposed to make sure God approves a specific job or goal I pursue, making sure that I do something that is hidden in his will somewhere, and if I don't find it, I'm getting second-best. These people say these things, but where's the boundary? How important does the goal have to be where I'm going to have to ask for this divine guidance? God doesn't care what color toothbrush I buy at Jewel, so why would he care which job I take or which car I buy, as long as all of these satisfy the requirements of following Christ and not sinning?

This whole idea of God's specific will is erroneous to say the least. Many people fall prey to this belief, living a limited life inside a closed box, inside these make-believe closed doors people are putting in themselves, and giving God the credit for creating obstacles in their path.

It is also a very bad idea to follow this "voice" or stirring or whatever you call it inside of you. People who say they "hear" things from God inside of them assign divine authority to their own thoughts, and that is dangerous. Everything that God has to say to us is already said in the Bible.

I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. I realized that I can do WHATEVER I want to in this life within the Bible's bounds. ANYTHING. I can pursue whatever job I would enjoy doing, I can pursue anything I want to, and nothing can stop me. I will definitely have obstacles, but that's okay because I know the truth. I don't care if I fail 1000 times for something, that goal, that dream is mine because I'm pursuing it and not giving up.

I have never been braver in my life. I'm approaching strangers, both men and women :) and talking to them like good friends. I'm standing up for myself at work; I'm thinking for myself, I've killed my anxiety problems I used to have. ALL because I asked God for help and actually taking the initiative to do it.

So my point is, there is no such thing as a specific will for our lives. We have freedom to pursue our interests, and God is not going to punish us if we pick school A instead of school B and so on. I hope a lot of people read this and understand the truth, and gain some confidence, not living lives trapped inside a cage because they're araid of what's outside of it.

If there is no specific will of God, what does God want us to do with regards to the following scriptures?

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Firstfruits

moonglow
Apr 11th 2010, 01:47 PM
Hello Moonglow!

Well, I had some free time this week, but that will soon be gone. :P

I think I'll just comment that the specific leading for the Apostle Paul was not a common thing - even for him. It does happen, but it is rare. It was rare in OT times, and in NT times as well. We should not expect God to lead that way everytime, or even often. I remember when I was in the army a strong impression for me to get in line for platoon guide/squad leader training. I did not want to do it. But I am sure He was at work. It ended up being a very critical decision for my life. But that is very rare. I do not expect God to impress me with what to do all the time. I am not looking for that. I do not believe that is biblical. This is probably how Trance sees it. But I am looking to walk closely with God, daily. I am not sayiong that impressions about what God is doing in our livesw is not wrong... but let's recognize that God just wants us to trust him.

I see that Trance is pretty new here, and so probably somewhat new to posting on Christian forums. But I think this is a good thread, and I'm glad he started it.

Thx Trance. I believe that many wrong teachings about God's leading has hurt and confused many believers.

Take care,

BD

I understand that...that is what added to my confusion about what Trance was trying to say..to pick Paul of all people when it appeared he didn't think God was micromanaging our lives. But I realize this is rare too...so I didn't understand what appeared to me to be conflicting point of view coming from him. See what I mean?

God bless

Trance
Apr 11th 2010, 02:59 PM
One thing I forgot to elaborate on in the first post was the idea of open and closed doors. When God (or something else) closes a door on you, how specific is that? Does that mean I should stop applying for that one specific grad school if I get rejected, or does that mean I should stop applying to those type of grad schools, or does it mean I shouldn't even do grad school? You see, a closed door happens, then how do you interpret that? Persevere or give up?

If I approach an audience to speak I act nervous, is God closing a door on me on being a speaker or does that mean I need to work on some things? This open-closed door philosophy is so subjective that it can be interpreted so many ways. In this case I should always ask God for wisdom.

HisLeast
Apr 11th 2010, 03:32 PM
One thing I forgot to elaborate on in the first post was the idea of open and closed doors. When God (or something else) closes a door on you, how specific is that? Does that mean I should stop applying for that one specific grad school if I get rejected, or does that mean I should stop applying to those type of grad schools, or does it mean I shouldn't even do grad school? You see, a closed door happens, then how do you interpret that? Persevere or give up?

If I approach an audience to speak I act nervous, is God closing a door on me on being a speaker or does that mean I need to work on some things? This open-closed door philosophy is so subjective that it can be interpreted so many ways. In this case I should always ask God for wisdom.

Good grief, if I interpreted every person telling me "no", and every venture I failed at the first time as God slamming a door in my face I probably wouldn't be employed, nor married. Though, I can sympathize why you'd think this way given the conflicting and contradictory advice you've been given. :(

At this point, the best I can do is restate something I told you about this statement in one of your past threads. God is not playing some sick game of "Guess what I'm thinking!" with you.

moonglow
Apr 11th 2010, 04:49 PM
Here is an article that might be of interest to some regarding this topic:

God’s Wonderful Plan for Your Life (http://socialhazard.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/gods-wonderful-plan-for-your-life/)

Its not what you think...;)

BroRog
Apr 11th 2010, 04:58 PM
Here is an article that might be of interest to some regarding this topic:

God’s Wonderful Plan for Your Life (http://socialhazard.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/gods-wonderful-plan-for-your-life/)

Its not what you think...;)Thanks for that. It puts things in perspective.

newinchrist4now
Apr 11th 2010, 05:03 PM
One thing I forgot to elaborate on in the first post was the idea of open and closed doors. When God (or something else) closes a door on you, how specific is that? Does that mean I should stop applying for that one specific grad school if I get rejected, or does that mean I should stop applying to those type of grad schools, or does it mean I shouldn't even do grad school? You see, a closed door happens, then how do you interpret that? Persevere or give up?

Yes you stop, when you can't get in somewhere or do something after repeated tries you must reaize even if you don't like it that that is not God's plan for you. I kept looking for a wife and failure was my friend, I gave up and ask good to bring me the girl He wanted for me. I've been married for 13 years now, I was hrd headed enough that I stopped relying on God and relyed on myself which never works.


If I approach an audience to speak I act nervous, is God closing a door on me on being a speaker or does that mean I need to work on some things? This open-closed door philosophy is so subjective that it can be interpreted so many ways. In this case I should always ask God for wisdom.

No as my Teacher said you should be nervous, if your not you should not give the speech. That's not the same, you should ask God before you give the speech (way before) that if this is His will to give you peace about it. That is how I handle the big decisions.

I was listen to Ravi Zacharias and thought of this thread, he talks about this subject. It's worth a listen:

http://htod.cdncon.com/o2/rzimht/MP3/JT/JT20100409.mp3

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 05:54 PM
If there is no specific will of God, what does God want us to do with regards to the following scriptures?

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

FirstfruitsFF,

Just to clarify, Trance is not saying there is no will of God, but no specific will for the individual. There is a moral and sovereign will of God. The text you listed is speaking about doing God's moral will--as revealed in scripture.

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 05:57 PM
I understand that...that is what added to my confusion about what Trance was trying to say..to pick Paul of all people when it appeared he didn't think God was micromanaging our lives. But I realize this is rare too...so I didn't understand what appeared to me to be conflicting point of view coming from him. See what I mean?

God bless
moonglow,

Yes I did-do. I believe his position is that God does not have a specific individual will for every decision. I would say that God does for some decisions - though that is rare. God wants us to choose wisely.

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 06:17 PM
One thing I forgot to elaborate on in the first post was the idea of open and closed doors. When God (or something else) closes a door on you, how specific is that? Does that mean I should stop applying for that one specific grad school if I get rejected, or does that mean I should stop applying to those type of grad schools, or does it mean I shouldn't even do grad school? You see, a closed door happens, then how do you interpret that? Persevere or give up?

If I approach an audience to speak I act nervous, is God closing a door on me on being a speaker or does that mean I need to work on some things? This open-closed door philosophy is so subjective that it can be interpreted so many ways. In this case I should always ask God for wisdom.Good question. He's bating us. :P

The "closed door" is used a handful of times in scripture. Paul asked his readers to pray for him in Colossians 4 for an open door for the word. I take this to mean that Paul wanted God to cause a great opportunity for Paul to preach the gospel with a good response to it.

Acts 14:27 After they arrived and gathered the church together, they reported everything God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 16:8, 9 But I will stay in Ephesus until Pentecost, because a wide door for effective ministry has opened for me -- yet many oppose me.

2 Corinthians 12:12, 13 When I came to Troas for the gospel of Christ, a door was opened to me by the Lord. I had no rest in my spirit because I did not find my brother Titus, but I said good-bye to them and left for Macedonia.

Revelation 3:8 I know your works. Because you have limited strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name, look, I have placed before you an open door that no one is able to close.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and there in heaven was an open door. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

In perhaps each case above an open door refers to an opportunity for service. I would not assume that it is referring to God's leading. For example, in the 2 Corinthians 12 text above, though God had opened an opportunity for ministry, Paul did not feel right because Titus wasn't there, so he left for Macedonia to look him up. Paul is not saying that he chose to disobey God here.

Now just because you feel nervous in speaking does not mean that you should not pursue it. Larry Moyer was attending seminary at DTS. he had a serious stuttering problem. He wanted to become an evangelist. He repeatedly was counseled to pursue administration, etc. - something where he did not need to speak so often. Evangelism?! You gotta be kidding. But he kept at it. Later he came to our church many years ago and led an evangelistic dinner, and spoke on Sunday morning. A man whom I later followed up was visiting our church and came to Christ that morning.

He now heads up one of the best evangelistic organizations around - Evantell. So I say, sometimes you should stick to your guns.

FWIW,

BD

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 06:38 PM
That's awesome, BadDog. Thanks for your encouraging posts.

For some reason I've been gripped with so much desire to search for the truth, to have a better understanding of God and his word. I've been posting here as well as reading articles about this issue online and talking to people about it. I'm also noticing something else.

I know for a fact we have to live Christ-centered lives, where we have to answer to God for everything. It is in my opinion that some Christians elevate themselves to such high piety, thinking that everything in the world that God created is fleshly and we shouldn't pursue it. I know that we should seek God and God only, but they think that pursuing careers or desires (non-sinful ones) are worldly and evil. These people think it's evil to try to reach our full potential, because they think it's selfish.
Thx Trance.

Psalm 16:11 You have shown me the paths of life. In your presence is fullness of joy. At your right hand are pleasures evermore.

God wants us to experience and enjoy the pleasures of life. I think most people can realize when they are just seeking to gratify their own desires, and when they are enjoying the pleasures in life that God freely gives us - for the purpose of our enjoyment. Don't let anyone trap you in legalism.

BD

Trance
Apr 12th 2010, 01:34 AM
Yes you stop, when you can't get in somewhere or do something after repeated tries you must reaize even if you don't like it that that is not God's plan for you. I kept looking for a wife and failure was my friend, I gave up and ask good to bring me the girl He wanted for me. I've been married for 13 years now, I was hrd headed enough that I stopped relying on God and relyed on myself which never works.[/url]

What does that mean? How did you stop "looking?" Did you stop talking to all women, and waited for a woman to approach you, or what? I don't understand.

How does your explanation attest to all the scientists and inventors who spent countless hours and many failed attempts at discovering new inventions and ideas? Was it God's will for them to stop if they kept failing but eventually succeeding?

BadDog
Apr 12th 2010, 02:40 AM
Yes you stop, when you can't get in somewhere or do something after repeated tries you must realize even if you don't like it that that is not God's plan for you. I kept looking for a wife and failure was my friend, I gave up and ask good to bring me the girl He wanted for me. I've been married for 13 years now, I was hard headed enough that I stopped relying on God and relied on myself which never works.


What does that mean? How did you stop "looking?" Did you stop talking to all women, and waited for a woman to approach you, or what? I don't understand.

How does your explanation attest to all the scientists and inventors who spent countless hours and many failed attempts at discovering new inventions and ideas? Was it God's will for them to stop if they kept failing but eventually succeeding?
Trance, let's give him a break. I can attest to the same sort of thing. newinchrist4now I believe is saying that he became anxious and stopped just trusting that God was actively working.

Philippians 4:6, 7 Don't be anxious (worry) about anything, but in everything, through prayer and petition with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses every thought, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 6:25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

1 Peter 5:7 casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.

Psalm 55:22 Cast your burden upon the LORD and He will sustain you; He will never allow the righteous to be shaken.

Proverbs 3:5, 6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all your ways, and he will make your paths straight.

In my case, I just relaxed. I didn't stop "looking" as women crossed my path, but I was confident that God was in control. The way of wisdom is one of trusting God... not just acting like God isn't involved intimately in every step of our lives.

Thx,

BD

newinchrist4now
Apr 12th 2010, 03:35 AM
What does that mean? How did you stop "looking?" Did you stop talking to all women, and waited for a woman to approach you, or what? I don't understand.

I waited on God because I understood that God does, contrary to the title, have a specific will for my life. As He does for all who are His. As far as a wife I was trying so hard on my own that I missed those around me, when I stopped trying and relied on God I realized my wife was right there.


How does your explanation attest to all the scientists and inventors who spent countless hours and many failed attempts at discovering new inventions and ideas? Was it God's will for them to stop if they kept failing but eventually succeeding?

Doesn't matter nor do I care about them. I am disabled and when I was little it was a struggled to walk, but I kept trying and I walked. Stop looking at silly things like scientists and inventors, instead relax and pray that God's will be done in your life. For those that are children of the living God, He has a plan and will for our life

Trance
Apr 12th 2010, 03:49 AM
I waited on God because I understood that God does, contrary to the title, have a specific will for my life. As He does for all who are His. As far as a wife I was trying so hard on my own that I missed those around me, when I stopped trying and relied on God I realized my wife was right there.

Doesn't matter nor do I care about them. I am disabled and when I was little it was a struggled to walk, but I kept trying and I walked. Stop looking at silly things like scientists and inventors, instead relax and pray that God's will be done in your life. For those that are children of the living God, He has a plan and will for our life

Stop trying to avoid the question. But you just said that if I fail at something many times then God doesn't want you to pursue it. What about your situation when you were trying to walk? You keep repeating this, ask for God's will be done in my life, but you're not putting into any practical sense. This idea of allowing God's will be done in my life is not a lofty, mysterious, cold and distant idea. What practical way is it working in the perseverence of many people despite great odds paid off in inventions, discoveries, and the like? Or was it God's will for them to give up?

newinchrist4now
Apr 12th 2010, 03:56 AM
Stop trying to avoid the question. But you just said that if I fail at something many times then God doesn't want you to pursue it. What about your situation when you were trying to walk? You keep repeating this, ask for God's will be done in my life, but you're not putting into any practical sense. This idea of allowing God's will be done in my life is not a lofty, mysterious, cold and distant idea. What practical way is it working in the perseverance of many people despite great odds paid off in inventions, discoveries, and the like? Or was it God's will for them to give up?

I don't know, nor do I care God's will for their life is not my business.

Trance
Apr 12th 2010, 04:05 AM
I don't know, nor do I care God's will for their life is not my business.

Understood. I'm sorry if I came off hard in some of my posts. I sometimes get very passionate in my discussions.

Trance
Apr 12th 2010, 04:21 AM
I don't know, nor do I care God's will for their life is not my business.


Yes you stop, when you can't get in somewhere or do something after repeated tries you must reaize even if you don't like it that that is not God's plan for you. I kept looking for a wife and failure was my friend, I gave up and ask good to bring me the girl He wanted for me. I've been married for 13 years now, I was hrd headed enough that I stopped relying on God and relyed on myself which never works.


Is it just me or is there a contradiction here?

newinchrist4now
Apr 12th 2010, 05:04 AM
Not for me there isn't, I see a spelling error I made though :)

kay-gee
Apr 12th 2010, 12:38 PM
I would like to weigh in on this issue for a moment. I believe the Bible is Gods "perfect" will. If you are following the Bible to the best of your abilities, then you are in His will. The more biblical precepts become the force behind your thinking process, the easier it is to make decisions.

I don't believe God chooses mates. (don't forget...there are unbelievers with great marriages too). You are free, according the Bible, to marry, so marry. Fall in love with someone and marry them. Be willing to live with the consequences of your decision, for better or worse. You are also free to not marry as per the words of Paul.

God is not concerned about houses or cars. Buy Ford, GM, or even Japanese. Whatever. The bible talks of good stewardship. Bring this to bear on the decision to buy a car or house. Go for the most bang for the buck. This shows responsibility for what you have been given.

As for occupation...Doctor, lawyer, butcher, baker, or candle-stick maker...What does it matter? Just be sure that what you do is neither immoral of for sordid gain.

What you wear, eat, recreation, etc... is of no importance to God. The Kingdom of God is not about these things.

all the best...

notuptome
Apr 12th 2010, 12:59 PM
I would like to weigh in on this issue for a moment. I believe the Bible is Gods "perfect" will. If you are following the Bible to the best of your abilities, then you are in His will. The more biblical precepts become the force behind your thinking process, the easier it is to make decisions.

I don't believe God chooses mates. (don't forget...there are unbelievers with great marriages too). You are free, according the Bible, to marry, so marry. Fall in love with someone and marry them. Be willing to live with the consequences of your decision, for better or worse. You are also free to not marry as per the words of Paul.

God is not concerned about houses or cars. Buy Ford, GM, or even Japanese. Whatever. The bible talks of good stewardship. Bring this to bear on the decision to buy a car or house. Go for the most bang for the buck. This shows responsibility for what you have been given.

As for occupation...Doctor, lawyer, butcher, baker, or candle-stick maker...What does it matter? Just be sure that what you do is neither immoral of for sordid gain.

What you wear, eat, recreation, etc... is of no importance to God. The Kingdom of God is not about these things.

all the best...
Well God loves every one of His children with His perfect love. A love far greater than any of us can understand. God is greatly interested in every aspect of the lives of His children. God has even numbered the hairs on our heads. If our earthly parents are concerned that we do the right things why would we expect our heavenly Father to do less?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 12th 2010, 08:42 PM
If God's Specific will 'doesnt exist'... then the accuser of the brethern is OUT OF A JOB'.. because its his wiles and tactics that he uses to subvert the 'specific will of God'.... this shown and starting with our Brother Jesus Christ.. from the temptation in the wilderness and recorded all the way thru the His Account of His Life while here in the flesh... and the same goes for each of His Children... He who 'knows' when a sparrow falls.. and has the hairs of his children numbered... has a specific will for each of His Chidlren.. this revealed and shown to them in His Word... seek and ye shall find..... and just to let you know... Jesus said... don't worry... ye are of much greater value than a sparrow that falls...

so there IS A SPECIFIC WILL for Each of His Kids.. and its revelad to them thru the Eternal Spirit and laid out in His word...


Seek and Ye shall Find.... and when you find it ... and it is Revealed to you.... it will be without Condemnation and Guilt... for there is 'no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus'.. and when it is revealed to you... It will be Freedom.... and YOU WILL PRAISE HIM...

kay-gee
Apr 13th 2010, 02:43 PM
OK so I'm trying to decide between buying another motorcycle (mine just got stolen) or a car. Where do I look in the Bible to help me decide!

Our hairs are numbered for sure, but is not God more interested in my Spiritual well being then in the temporal things of life. After all, these things are passing away. They are subject to thieves, moths and rust.

all the best...

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 13th 2010, 02:57 PM
OK so I'm trying to decide between buying another motorcycle (mine just got stolen) or a car. Where do I look in the Bible to help me decide!

Our hairs are numbered for sure, but is not God more interested in my Spiritual well being then in the temporal things of life. After all, these things are passing away. They are subject to thieves, moths and rust.

all the best...

Your distinction between spiritual and temporal is not Biblical. The Bible nowhere says that the temporal things are necessarily unspiritual. God is interested in every aspect of our life and - if you read Slug's testimony earlier in this thread - you will find that God can speak to us regarding those small things too. Does He always? No. Does that mean we shouldn't expect or ask Him to? No!

Slug1
Apr 13th 2010, 03:08 PM
Your distinction between spiritual and temporal is not Biblical. The Bible nowhere says that the temporal things are necessarily unspiritual. God is interested in every aspect of our life and - if you read Slug's testimony earlier in this thread - you will find that God can speak to us regarding those small things too. Does He always? No. Does that mean we shouldn't expect or ask Him to? No!I can drop in the testimony of how I was led to the truck I now drive. Or for that matter the car as well :P

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 13th 2010, 03:33 PM
What is confusing to me about this thread and first post is that it declares that ‘God’s Specific Will doesn’t exist”, then goes on to talk about the author and not about God. I can’t see the connection between declaring God doesn’t control every aspect of your life and your desire to do things… for the big assumption is…. “I can do what I can do, and God is not concerned what I do with my life… and done so all without scriptures I might add.

Whereas I can show scriptures that as man plans his ways, God orders his steps. God’s will is specific, is perfect, is precise, and everyone ever and will be created --- works within His plan, whether they are cognoscente to His plan or not.

So God gives work for daily bread, clothing to cover ourselves, and someplace to lie our head to rest and would argue that within ‘our will’ to choose, that each choice is also within His perfect will.

newinchrist4now
Apr 13th 2010, 05:26 PM
OK so I'm trying to decide between buying another motorcycle (mine just got stolen) or a car. Where do I look in the Bible to help me decide!

Our hairs are numbered for sure, but is not God more interested in my Spiritual well being then in the temporal things of life. After all, these things are passing away. They are subject to thieves, moths and rust.

all the best...

Take it to God in prayer

Trance
Apr 14th 2010, 02:06 AM
Moving forward. I know that the Bible says that God's ways are not our ways, and that we are supposed to surrender all our hopes, dreams, and ideas to God because we need to live out God's hopes and dreams for us. I did so much research, and I've come across two schools of thought: those who think that their desires are opposite of God's desires, because their heart is deceitful beyond all cure. And the other group, which I'm in, that believe that the desires we have are given from God when we are walking with the Lord.

But what confuses me is how some Christians believe that whatever person they want to marry should not be who they would like to be with, but who God wants them to be with. If my desires are not God's desires, then why would God want me to marry somebody that I have no interest in? I mean, the doors were wide open for marrying this person, and I did it not because I wanted to but because God wanted to, and I end up not liking the marriage and being sexually frustrated because I never wanted to be with this woman, but God wanted me though. You see what I mean?

HisLeast
Apr 14th 2010, 02:48 AM
But what confuses me is how some Christians believe that whatever person they want to marry should not be who they would like to be with, but who God wants them to be with.
Why are you always so convinced that there is a disparity between the two?


If my desires are not God's desires, then why would God want me to marry somebody that I have no interest in?
1) What makes you think God wants you to be with someone you have no interest in? (this has come up a number of times by the way, and I'm curious what dynamic reinforces this perception you have)
2) When it comes to people God does NOT want you to marry, that's as easy as looking at the Law. There are people God doesn't want you to marry for very practical reasons (like people who don't share your belief in him for instance). How do you perceive this?

You seem convinced that God wants you to be miserable, and that God has somehow planned for you to be with a woman who makes you miserable. Where does this perception come from?

Trance
Apr 14th 2010, 04:21 AM
Why are you always so convinced that there is a disparity between the two?


1) What makes you think God wants you to be with someone you have no interest in? (this has come up a number of times by the way, and I'm curious what dynamic reinforces this perception you have)
2) When it comes to people God does NOT want you to marry, that's as easy as looking at the Law. There are people God doesn't want you to marry for very practical reasons (like people who don't share your belief in him for instance). How do you perceive this?

You seem convinced that God wants you to be miserable, and that God has somehow planned for you to be with a woman who makes you miserable. Where does this perception come from?

That's a really good question. I think it's a combination of being hurt many times by women and from a low self-esteem that keeps trying to creep back up from beneath the surface. I've always been the underdog in everything in life up until the last three years, in my mid-twenties. I've rarely stood up for myself, I always took people's opinions to heart without ever considering what I wanted, I never knew I had rights to my own opinion, I had no identity of my own, I came from a codependent family. Nobody ever taught me to stand up for myself or think for myself, that what I wanted wasn't right and whatever. I thought I was destined to be a pushover all my life, that that was my God-given role, as the Bible says "To some is given little, but to some is given much." Just take things as they come along, take the scraps from the table that are thrown at me, and leave the feast for the other people with more talent, social status, and education.

I mean seriously, this was my thinking pattern!

Scooby_Snacks
Apr 14th 2010, 11:49 AM
Hi Trance,

I just read your last post, thanks for sharing..I fully understand where you are coming from.
It sounds like you are breaking free from those dysfunctional patterns, praise God.
Now you will be able to pass down healthier ways of living to the next generation, and share with others your testimony of truth and healing.

I believe He does have a specific will for us..like the Psalm 47:4


He will choose our inheritance for us,
The excellence of Jacob whom He loves. Selah

From my understanding, there is a big difference between my family choosing for me and God choosing for me because Gods Love is perfect and pure, unlike human love.
He does however use those things that the enemy wanted to destroy me with, sour lemons.... to make Glory unto Him...Holy Lemonade... :pp

He doesn't just mean well..He knows every facet of my heart, mind and spirit.
He knows how I will glorify Him, He knows how I will develope, grow and be transformed into His image.

He is not oppressive, He does not wish for me to place heavy burdens on myself...or to control every measurable inch of activity.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 5:13
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Being in this liberty and accepting it is His will, not fear and doubt.

May your continued seeking reap His abundance through His Mercy and Grace and Truth.


Scooby

Slug1
Apr 14th 2010, 12:04 PM
But what confuses me is how some Christians believe that whatever person they want to marry should not be who they would like to be with, but who God wants them to be with.

God always has purpose for us and if we allow our hearts to be open to His purpose for us, then we'll be aligned and blessed. Have you ever read Hosea? God had purpose for thier union and who are we to question God's purpose/will?

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2010, 01:20 PM
FF,

Just to clarify, Trance is not saying there is no will of God, but no specific will for the individual. There is a moral and sovereign will of God. The text you listed is speaking about doing God's moral will--as revealed in scripture.

Thx,

BD

Thanks for the clarification BadDog.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Trance
Apr 14th 2010, 03:04 PM
God always has purpose for us and if we allow our hearts to be open to His purpose for us, then we'll be aligned and blessed. Have you ever read Hosea? God had purpose for thier union and who are we to question God's purpose/will?

So when you met your wife you just picked some girl you had no interest nor desire for and by faith you married her hoping that God somehow will change that?

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 14th 2010, 03:08 PM
So when you met your wife you just picked some girl you had no interest nor desire for and by faith you married her hoping that God somehow will change that?

By the way, I don't live under the law, but by grace.

Gal. 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

No, when I got married I married a girl I had fallen head over heels in love with, was crazy about, and also knew God had picked for me. Our desires and His desires don't have to necessarily be opposites. If we abide in Christ, in fact, they will often line up with each other.

HisLeast
Apr 14th 2010, 03:15 PM
So when you met your wife you just picked some girl you had no interest nor desire for and by faith you married her hoping that God somehow will change that?

You're going to destroy yourself if you don't confront this assurance that you have that the only two types of women existing are (1) Those you might be interested in and (2) Those God wants you to marry. There is a third set, that is orders of magnitude larger than the two of those combined: (3) Women you might be interested in that you are permitted to marry.

I know you weren't asking me, but when I met the woman who would become my wife I was thoroughly blown away. That only got better as we dated, and continues to get better now that we're married. Now, what does that tell you?

Vhayes
Apr 14th 2010, 03:20 PM
That's a really good question. I think it's a combination of being hurt many times by women and from a low self-esteem that keeps trying to creep back up from beneath the surface. I've always been the underdog in everything in life up until the last three years, in my mid-twenties. I've rarely stood up for myself, I always took people's opinions to heart without ever considering what I wanted, I never knew I had rights to my own opinion, I had no identity of my own, I came from a codependent family. Nobody ever taught me to stand up for myself or think for myself, that what I wanted wasn't right and whatever. I thought I was destined to be a pushover all my life, that that was my God-given role, as the Bible says "To some is given little, but to some is given much." Just take things as they come along, take the scraps from the table that are thrown at me, and leave the feast for the other people with more talent, social status, and education.

I mean seriously, this was my thinking pattern!
Wow - Trance - God loves you. Really He does. He is a loving parent and will not feed you with scraps - He has prepared a feast for you. Talent? You seem to be able to express yourself with words - not many have that ability. Education? Read - study - expand your views by talking to everyone you meet! That's a TRUE education that holds great value. Social Status? Really? how much more social status could you ask for than being a child of The King?

You matter as much to God as anyone else. He really does want what's best for YOU - He won't give you what is best for someone else. od has no ugly, slow redheaded step children. He loves all of us.

V

Slug1
Apr 14th 2010, 05:20 PM
So when you met your wife you just picked some girl you had no interest nor desire for and by faith you married her hoping that God somehow will change that?That's not the point of purpose. Plus, we didn't have a relationship with God when we married. Not in His will, we didn't.

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2010, 08:48 PM
So when you met your wife you just picked some girl you had no interest nor desire for and by faith you married her hoping that God somehow will change that?

You know Trance, Isaac married a woman God chose for him and she was very beautiful. Jacob also married a beautiful woman that God chose for him. Why would you think God would call you to marry someone you don't like? I do know of someone that happened to and he is now very happy in his marriage. God knew him better than he knew himself. But for most folks, that won't be the case. God rarely does it that way.

Grace to you,

Mark

Gillian
Apr 17th 2010, 01:46 AM
Hello

I understand what you saying and I agree but I think it somewhat wrong conpact you arrived. spefic will of God lay in our wisdom, true that God in many times do not stake out hobby intrests everyday live, only we do that whatever we want to, but sometime Spiritly lead by God to certain pursions (misspell) do happen but many for peroids of time however many times, do recived rewards inwardly , I belive some rather then many are speficilly at some point of their lives to be placed what God want the person to be as long person will same of God`s. same for Son and his Father but while few are spefically called what God want them to be, many can be in their discovery what they want to be of their own choosing therefore aumtomically are chosen by God, due to that good wisdom (as `she` came from God and in God`s set ways) and pleasure of all goodness, not limited to bible and God relate but anything of goodness and enjoyment. By the way not talking of little everyday thing what colour of toothbrush?? unless you really excited about that!
well if you are Praise God! why praise God at all? because purely you having a great time and thank to God for making you as you are in creation and your own will.


I agree with you people do tend to boxed in God spefic for abloste everything not own will and down to unimportment colour toothbrush! God leave us free reign everyday small things or grander.
but I dont think, ever God do not spefic`s will on grand or every day change we make in wisdom or better for it in our lives, we should take that to mean God in no sense credited for all goodness and wisdom blessings and pleasure of hobbies, weather intrests gardeners since all goodness we enjoy is because of God speficlly or not, so rightly if you happy doing something fun day out not God relate at all, rightly praise God for He who made all the things and goodness.
Take care not to dimmed credit to God because God rightly to be praised for all goodness and wisdom in our learning in own cosenice of right and wrong, that wisdom in us belong to the Lord, god given conseice. so all Glory belong to the Lord and thank you for a lovely day depsite lack of spefic by You today your post may as well say,

for people who feel they "hear" God, I see no reason for that to dismissed, taking care that `hearing God` lay in the goodness and manifested to others and his/her own spirit struggle be better for it in walk with God. If it serve own`s struggle or effect to others better then that should be credited to God.

you talking of one thing I kinda of talking two things here crocte spefics and everyday thankgiving goodness credited to the Lord. while you may not be speficlly willed by God, still Praise God you feel great.

I understand what you getting here, maybe many atttract alblsote everything in spefics.but funny thing is, while what you say is right in caution of it but be caution too, not to dimmed the the all goodness there manifested ungodly or godly but set by her the wisdom the election in God of rightiness and for according pleasure will of God so praise God for it. the reason why angels always praising thanking God and many christians do every day in prayer as long they remember.

hearing a `voice` doesnt mean big change grand scale or dramtic at all.
holy spirit in many ways are working helping lead inside us, with our wills, taking care not to take it for granted and how easy it is for all of us not to notice/forgot momentilty then reality propley really bigger credit then we can image of God effort in our lives by helps nudge. remember thankgiving, pleasure, dont take for grant, dont forgot, (walk strong with god help manifest the reality of Him begin so close to you). it so easy for us to forget ulness we filled by spirit then reailty hit how greatly your appricate of God will be and how God does seem to be seen in `everything` with glad thankgivings. so God are more in your life and mine then we think and go unoticed half of times by this world blindness and our own, hence the need to constantly walking with God discipling your own weakness so may manifest Himself more in our increase thankgiving hearts that open our spiritaul eyes, ever seeing throught the glass brighter but are still darkly by this world.
I agree people do have unforacte habits to point sins blocking things are sins manifested or death itself as God know God will to be done, and silliy things too. trvial stuffs. Once or twice i can accpet maybe due to unimage cirsumatcnes but no way all the times.

God truely truely I find all the times so costantly croditadaction to us, but alway not quite as He appear to be. if we dont take care of understanding Him rightly and please do chew more meat man!

sorry for lenght of it.