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Sojourner
Apr 10th 2010, 11:57 PM
For the serpent's role in man's corruption, God consigned him to crawling in the dust for the rest of his days. I always felt that if the serpent was merely a snake--as he is invariably depicted, his punishment would not make sense; he was already crawling in the dust!

But, suppose instead, that the serpent was more along the lines of an actual "dragon," with wings, and the ability to soar through the heavens. Crawling around piles of critter poop would indeed be a harsh and humiliating penalty, in that case.

Is it possible that the serpent is a basis-in-fact for the legendary fire-breathing dragon and similar winged serpent creatures of old? Also, I've always wondered about the the "fiery" characteristics of Job's leviathan:

By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth. (Job 41:18-21)

Sure does sound like a fire-breathing dragon...:hmm:

markedward
Apr 11th 2010, 12:39 AM
1. The leviathan is described as living in the water, not dust. Job 41.1 refers to attempts to catch him with a "hook" (as in, a fishhook). Verse 41.7 also refers to attempting to catch him with "fish spears". Verse 41.31 refers to him as living in "the deep" (a synonym for the sea) and "the sea". Verse 41.32 refers to the white-wash trail of the waves as he swims. There's just no room for interpreting the leviathan as the same creature as the serpent from Genesis 3.

2. I'm sure the Scriptural description of the leviathan was a source for mythical "dragons", but if that was the case, we would have to cut out the myth so that only Scripture remains. (In other words, don't let the mythology of dragons cloud your interpretation of the Scriptural description of the leviathan.)

3. The Revelation shows us that Satan was the serpent [Revelation 12.9; 20.2]... and while Satan is called a "dragon" in the Revelation, it's no more literal than when he is called a "serpent". This leads me to one of two conclusions: (1) the serpent in Genesis 3 is an actual snake that Satan was working through, or (2) the opening of Genesis contains some manner of allegory.

Sojourner
Apr 11th 2010, 05:42 PM
1. There's just no room for interpreting the leviathan as the same creature as the serpent from Genesis 3.
That wasn't my intent. Actually, my point about leviathan (also used in Scripture as a symbol of Satan, by the way), was the repeated references to fire and smoke aspects we associate with the mythology of the fire-breathing dragon--not that leviathan and the serpent are one and the same.
At the same time, I can't ignore the fact that the punishment meted out to both the man and the woman was manifested in a very real, very literal sense. I still ponder the significance of punishment that had no impact in the serpent's existence.


2. I'm sure the Scriptural description of the leviathan was a source for mythical "dragons", but if that was the case, we would have to cut out the myth so that only Scripture remains. (In other words, don't let the mythology of dragons cloud your interpretation of the Scriptural description of the leviathan.)
I'm not.


3. The Revelation shows us that Satan was the serpent [Revelation 12.9; 20.2]
Not exactly. The serpent was a medium through whom Satan operated, but no more. This is clear from the fact that God first pronounced sentence on the serpent for his complicity, and then proceeded to speak to Satan himself--the spirit behind the serpent--foretelling his ultimate defeat at the hands of the woman's "seed." On at at least three other occasions, God addressed Satan as the power or influence behind another: the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14), the prince of Tyrus (Ezekiel 28), and Peter (Matt 16:23).


... and while Satan is called a "dragon" in the Revelation, it's no more literal than when he is called a "serpent". This leads me to one of two conclusions: (1) the serpent in Genesis 3 is an actual snake that Satan was working through, or (2) the opening of Genesis contains some manner of allegory.

I tend to believe that the detailed description of the serpent's character lends itself to the existence of a literal creature of great intelligence and craftiness. Exactly what, we have no way of knowing. There are probably a number of creatures who existed before the Flood that are no longer with us; that too, is a matter of speculation. (As was the premise of the OP)
My intent was more a matter of reflection on the purpose of the serpent's inclusion in the account of the Fall, than a statement of theology for critical dissection or refutation.

markedward
Apr 11th 2010, 05:55 PM
Neither Isaiah 14 nor Ezekiel 28 refer to Satan in any form.


My intent was more a matter of reflection on the purpose of the serpent's inclusion in the account of the Fall, than a statement of theology for critical dissection or refutation.So, even though you posted this in Bible Chat, you weren't actually inviting anyone to discuss the topic.

Sojourner
Apr 11th 2010, 07:27 PM
Neither Isaiah 14 nor Ezekiel 28 refer to Satan in any form.

So, even though you posted this in Bible Chat, you weren't actually inviting anyone to discuss the topic.

We are discussing, Markedward. I was inviting discussion, or I wouldn't have posted in a discussion forum. I was simply clarifying that my post espoused ponderings aout a Biblical topic, rather than a dogmatic view to be corrected or refuted--which is what I make of statements that presume my propensity for allowing mythology to cloud correct Scriptural interpretation, or assume an opinion that the serpent and leviathan are synonymous. It's interesting that you only quoted and addressed that one statement from my entire response.

Love Fountain
Apr 12th 2010, 05:54 AM
The Hebrew word for serpent is nachash, it means shining one.

As it is written he certainly appeared to eve as a shining one as he called into question the word of God. Hence he portrayed himself as a messenger of light.

2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Fire is the word.

Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

It is written.

2Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The word beguiled in 2Cor 11:3 above in greek is exapatao and means wholly seduced.

Leviathan is king over all the children of pride, as it is written.

Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

As it is written also, his pride led to his demise.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Yet he shall be brought low, as it is written.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

In the simplicity of the word.

2 Cor 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

As it is written, so shall it be done.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The rock that is not our Rock shall be broke in pieces for the word is also like a hammer.

Deut 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

Ye shall know them by their fruits!

Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Repent! Return to your first love! Be healed and forgive yourselves and each other. Return to the Rock and He shall heal you and give you comfort from all your sorrows. Come out of her my people! Your Father still loves you!

In the name of Yeshua,
Love Fountain