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View Full Version : What qualifies as porneia? (WOMEN only, please. Men can comment, but not vote.)



BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 03:30 AM
This is a women's-only poll, which corresponds with the men-only poll with the same question.

Thank you LookingUp for the poll idea. I kept the questions identical as on your original poll.

Here's the original OP, so you can see what LookingUp was looking for:


What qualifies as porneia?

I’d like to get a general idea of what the Body believes regarding the word “porneia” and how it relates to the divorce/remarriage issue.

For those who have studied this issue, it would be very helpful to me if I could get some input on what your understanding of the word “porneia” means in the context of the divorce/remarriage passages.

In another thread, we have been discussing this issue.

One poster gave this helpful input:

The original Greek word that is used in Matthew 19:9 is "porneia". Obviously, it is the basis of the word "pornography". The word itself is a general term for sexual immorality. Elsewhere in scripture, the word is qualified - "homosexual porneia", "adulterous porneia", etc. In this verse, though, the word is unqualified.


It is important to understand some cultural differences, and how we must apply them in today's world. In Jesus' day, there was obviously no computer porn, no magazine porn and very little pornographic literature available to common men. The most common method of "porn" is those times was the visiting of temple prostitutes, or in cultic ceremonies. Jews could (and did) travel to some surrounding cities outside of Judea and Galilee and engage in this kind of behavior. Technically, even just attending such a place to watch without having intercourse is still "porneia". Just because our sin does not necessarily involve being in the same place with the object of our lust does not make it any more acceptable.


Do not also forget that Jesus' definition of adultery is wide: "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."


I won't go as far as to say that a single viewing of porn is justification for divorce, or a romantic kiss with a coworker is either. Each situation must be seen and judged independently. Consider these two situations: one, a man has a one-time sexual affair with a co-worker, feels guilty and breaks it off. Two, a man is addicted to pornography and looks at it every single day, storing huge collections of images and video, but never has intercourse with another woman. I think the sexual sin of the second man is far worse, and I think that it satisfies the "exception clause" more completely.


In any case, though, it is better to save the marriage and rebuild the relationship than to divorce. This is probably not possible if one party is unrepentant or unforgiving.
Another poster gave this helpful input:

Scripture in a number of places demonstrates that sexual immorality is the act of lust "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt. 5:28).


So, while a divorce wouldn't be valid for a lustful look, since that's a sin between a man and God, I think acts that are committed out of lust with someone other than the spouse fall into the relm of marital unfaithfulness. I'm not 100% on when a kiss is sin (some people are just kiss-ier than others, and in the Bible men kissed each other, like Judas and Jesus, Paul's instruction to greet the brothers with a holy kiss, etc), or if pornography is qualifies, but you're definitly on shakey ground any time lust and action are working in concert.



BD

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 04:13 AM
I expect to see that women will include the emotional side, as sex for them includes this naturally. I expect for men that it will be more the physical, and mental, but not the emotional.

We'll see.

BD

Vhayes
Apr 11th 2010, 04:23 AM
I based my answer on this:
Matthew 5
27" - You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';

28 - but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I would also add that anyone who is married yet spends a significant portion of their time daydreaming about another is guilty of, at the very least, abandonment.

I Corinthians 7
15 - Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

In my mind, the person who is daydreaming has "left" their spouse.

LookingUp
Apr 11th 2010, 04:43 AM
This is a women's-only poll, which corresponds with the men-only poll with the same question.

Thank you LookingUp for the poll idea. I kept the questions identical as on your original poll.

BDOK. Could be interesting!

LookingUp
Apr 11th 2010, 04:46 AM
I based my answer on this:
Matthew 5
27" - You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';

28 - but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I would also add that anyone who is married yet spends a significant portion of their time daydreaming about another is guilty of, at the very least, abandonment.

I Corinthians 7
15 - Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

In my mind, the person who is daydreaming has "left" their spouse.Ya see..it's already getting interesting! I have never heard this viewpoint before. Thank you for your input!

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 11th 2010, 08:48 AM
Ya see..it's already getting interesting! I have never heard this viewpoint before. Thank you for your input!

Vhayes....so then would you say that "daydreaming" is grounds for divorce? If not, then how do you justify this statemnt with the verse that says abandonment is grounds for divorce?

As for the porneia question, porneia means fornication, or unrestrained sexual activity. Most people associate this with sexual activity outside of marriage, but I would take it a step further and say that it can also exist within marriage, such as the swinging lifestyle and two married people enjoying pornography together. I would say that porneia is any form of sexual desire or activity that is unholy or impure.

moonglow
Apr 11th 2010, 01:52 PM
I have no idea what porneia means...:confused

Can you speak English please..:lol:

Whats the poll about??

Vhayes
Apr 11th 2010, 02:05 PM
Vhayes....so then would you say that "daydreaming" is grounds for divorce? If not, then how do you justify this statemnt with the verse that says abandonment is grounds for divorce?

As for the porneia question, porneia means fornication, or unrestrained sexual activity. Most people associate this with sexual activity outside of marriage, but I would take it a step further and say that it can also exist within marriage, such as the swinging lifestyle and two married people enjoying pornography together. I would say that porneia is any form of sexual desire or activity that is unholy or impure.
I used the phrase "significant portion of their time" for a reason. Infatuation can become obsession. If someone is obsessed or infatuated with a sports star, a movie star or the person across the street, they aren't thinking of their spouse.

As far as pornography itself is concerned - it's degrading to both males and females, at least in my opinion. But it's more insidious than that. I wonder how many marriages have failed because if those romance novels women read, the "bodice rippers" as they are called. Women become disillusioned with their regular Joe husband because he doesn't act the same way as the guys in the books?

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 05:47 PM
Vhayes....so then would you say that "daydreaming" is grounds for divorce? If not, then how do you justify this statemnt with the verse that says abandonment is grounds for divorce?

As for the porneia question, porneia means fornication, or unrestrained sexual activity. Most people associate this with sexual activity outside of marriage, but I would take it a step further and say that it can also exist within marriage, such as the swinging lifestyle and two married people enjoying pornography together. I would say that porneia is any form of sexual desire or activity that is unholy or impure.Think I'll put my :2cents: in here. :P

1 Corinthians 7 does not say that abandonment is grounds for divorce, IMO. It is specifically speaking of an unbeliever married to a believer. Paul says to remain married to an unbeliever, for the sake of the family. But if the unbeliever wants to leave, let him leave.

Say, could any of the women here vote, who haven't voted? Only one vote so far. The men's poll is much more active.

BD

jayne
Apr 11th 2010, 07:20 PM
One of my best friends has a husband who told her last summer that he was having an "emotional affair". She was taken aback and asked him what that meant.

He told her that he was infatuated with this woman at his job and that he fantasized about her all of the time. The other woman wasn't aware of his feelings and the husband told his wife, my friend, that he wasn't going to act upon it, but that he just couldn't shake this desire for this other woman.

My friend was devastated beyond belief.

Of course porneia includes the emotional sparks that lead to actual intercourse. No reasonable, sane, and logical person who is lovingly committed to his or her spouse wakes up one morning and says, "I think I'll have sex today with someone I'm not married to."

It's a process that sneaks up you and entraps you before you realize it.

Look at this link: 15 step to adultery..... (http://www.gillistriplett.com/rel101/articles/adultery.html)

The first 12 steps, before there is even any kissing involved, is comprised of emotional behavior.

Common interests, mentally comparing someone to your spouse, and more.

How many times have extramarital affairs happened when two people innocently began a relationship with a common interest.

Perhaps this...."My husband doesn't share a burden for the young people at our church like Mr. So-and-So and I do."

Or..... "My wife just doesn't understand my love for the Bible like Mrs. What's-Her-Name does."

Sometimes it's all perfectly benign. Sometimes it escalates into something terrible.

The sin of the sexual intercourse with someone you are not married to starts FAR BEFORE penetration ever occurs. Weeks before, months before, and sometimes years. By the time that you are actually under the sheets copulating with this person, the sin had long since been committed.

Even if a person has spontaneous sex with a stranger or prostitute, lust was already a stronghold in the heart. Strong enough for the flesh to impulsively act upon it.

moonglow
Apr 11th 2010, 08:23 PM
Think I'll put my :2cents: in here. :P

1 Corinthians 7 does not say that abandonment is grounds for divorce, IMO. It is specifically speaking of an unbeliever married to a believer. Paul says to remain married to an unbeliever, for the sake of the family. But if the unbeliever wants to leave, let him leave.

Say, could any of the women here vote, who haven't voted? Only one vote so far. The men's poll is much more active.

BD

I haven't voted because I was still trying to fully understand what porneia means...never heard of the word before.

BadDog
Apr 11th 2010, 11:12 PM
I haven't voted because I was still trying to fully understand what porneia means...never heard of the word before.moonglow,

Well, it means illicit sexual activity, or sexual immorality. It's a farily wide word. LookingUp's interest is in how this applies to those two verses in Matthew (ch. 5 and 19), when Jesus said that we were not permitted to divorce, except in the case of PORNEIA (sexual immorality). Some say that even the exception is questionable since Jesus didn't include it in chapter 5. I say the exception applies - to actual sexual activity... not just thinking about it.

BD

BadDog
Apr 12th 2010, 02:08 AM
One of my best friends has a husband who told her last summer that he was having an "emotional affair". She was taken aback and asked him what that meant.

He told her that he was infatuated with this woman at his job and that he fantasized about her all of the time. The other woman wasn't aware of his feelings and the husband told his wife, my friend, that he wasn't going to act upon it, but that he just couldn't shake this desire for this other woman.

My friend was devastated beyond belief.

Of course porneia includes the emotional sparks that lead to actual intercourse. No reasonable, sane, and logical person who is lovingly committed to his or her spouse wakes up one morning and says, "I think I'll have sex today with someone I'm not married to."

It's a process that sneaks up you and entraps you before you realize it.

Look at this link: 15 step to adultery..... (http://www.gillistriplett.com/rel101/articles/adultery.html)

The first 12 steps, before there is even any kissing involved, is comprised of emotional behavior.

Common interests, mentally comparing someone to your spouse, and more.

How many times have extramarital affairs happened when two people innocently began a relationship with a common interest.

Perhaps this...."My husband doesn't share a burden for the young people at our church like Mr. So-and-So and I do."

Or..... "My wife just doesn't understand my love for the Bible like Mrs. What's-Her-Name does."

Sometimes it's all perfectly benign. Sometimes it escalates into something terrible.

The sin of the sexual intercourse with someone you are not married to starts FAR BEFORE penetration ever occurs. Weeks before, months before, and sometimes years. By the time that you are actually under the sheets copulating with this person, the sin had long since been committed.

Even if a person has spontaneous sex with a stranger or prostitute, lust was already a stronghold in the heart. Strong enough for the flesh to impulsively act upon it.
Jayne,

Excellent post. Just excellent. Very well expressed.

Certainly sexual immorality takes place in the mind before it ever becomes a physical action. I imagine that for a woman there is emotional involvement also necessarily first. But that's not necessarily true for men. We're just interested in the physical side. That's why I wanted to see how differently men and women would respond to this question.

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Apr 12th 2010, 03:45 AM
You might want to compare the results in the Men-only poll to this one. Interesting.

BD

chad
Apr 12th 2010, 10:16 AM
Ok, here is a definition from the holman bible dictionary and some other sources.

Fornication is the english word that is translated from the Greek Word Porneia G4202.

FORNICATION (Fohr nih kay' shuhn) Various acts of sexual immorality, especially being a harlot or whore.

In the OT...The Hebrew word Fornication comes from H2181. zanah, zaw-naw'; a prim. root [highly fed and therefore wanton]; to commit adultery (usually of the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment);

In the Old Testament zanah regularly refers to wrongful heterosexual intercourse, primarily in regard to women (Judg. 19:2; Jer. 3:1; Hos. 4:13). The noun "harlot" or "whore" is derived from the same stem.

In the NT...Fornication comes from the Greek word (G4202). porneia, por-ni'-ah; from G4203; harlotry (includ. adultery and incest); fig. idolatry:--fornication.

In Paul's letters, porneia and/or related words refer to an incestuous relationship (1 Cor. 5:1), sexual relations with a prostitute (1 Cor. 6:12-20), and various forms of unchastity both heterosexual and homosexual (Rom. 1:29; 1 Cor. 5:9-11; 6:9-11; 7:2; 2 Cor. 12:21; Eph. 5:3; 1 Thess. 4:3). Immorality is a sin against God (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:15-20; 1 Thess. 4:3-8).

IMMORALITY = Any illicit sexual activity outside of marriage.




I have no idea what porneia means...:confused

Can you speak English please..:lol:

Ta-An
Apr 12th 2010, 06:35 PM
BD,,,,, it all starts in the mind..... the seed is planted in the mind...... and that whatever follows after that is qualified as porneia

Jas 1:15 Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.

The reason I include infatuation, is that the physical contact does not so much have to do with the person whom you are infatuated with, but that when in marriage you 'replace' the image in your mind with the physical person (spouse) you are with... what I am trying to say is, that during normal relations with your spouse, your eyes are closed and you visualize the experience with the image of your infatuation.... :note: :B

BadDog
Apr 12th 2010, 07:34 PM
BD,,,,, it all starts in the mind..... the seed is planted in the mind...... and that whatever follows after that is qualified as porneia

Jas 1:15 Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.

The reason I include infatuation, is that the physical contact does not so much have to do with the person whom you are infatuated with, but that when in marriage you 'replace' the image in your mind with the physical person (spouse) you are with... what I am trying to say is, that during normal relations with your spouse, your eyes are closed and you visualize the experience with the image of your infatuation.... :note: :B
Close your eyes... hmmm, have to try that. :spin: Or should I keep my eyes closed IOT avoid PORNEIA?

BD

Ta-An
Apr 12th 2010, 07:38 PM
Close your eyes... hmmm, have to try that. :spin: Or should I keep my eyes closed IOT avoid PORNEIA?

BD
:rolleyes: BD it should not even get to that! :mad:

BadDog
Apr 13th 2010, 11:30 AM
:rolleyes: BD it should not even get to that! :mad:

Ta-an,

Just trying to be humorous. Sorry. But it is difficult to always control what thoughts come into a person's mind. Let's be realistic. Also, we simply cannot and should not ignore that men and women are just plain built differently. What would be a problem for a man might not be for a woman and vice-versa.

For example, a man might talk romantically to a woman, and he would not necessarily see it as sexual, while the woman would. For a man, it's all about the actual physical.

BD

Ta-An
Apr 13th 2010, 11:35 AM
BD , you are right..... we are so totally different :pp
If we were not..... it could have been a problem... yet I think, that is why Self control is such an important fruit of the Holy Spirit :D

BadDog
Apr 13th 2010, 03:42 PM
Ta-An,

Amen. One reason I created two polls - one for men and the other for women, was to see if we would look a this question differently. It's hard not to respect someone who shows self-control.

Thx,

BD

moonglow
Apr 13th 2010, 04:35 PM
Sorry I am slow in getting back to this. Been short on time. I think porn is one I would definitely consider on this and here is why:

http://www.pureintimacy.org/piArticles/A000000551.cfm

A FEW THINGS TO THINK ABOUT


Professors Dolf Zillman of Indiana University and Jennings Bryant of the University of Houston found that repeated exposure to pornography results in a decreased satisfaction with one's sexual partner, with the partner's sexuality, with the partner's sexual curiosity, a decrease in the valuation of faithfulness and a major increase in the importance of sex without attachment.


A study conducted by Dr. Reo Christensen of Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, found that pornography leaves the impression with its viewers that sex has no relationship to privacy; that it is unrelated to love, commitment or marriage; that bizarre forms of sex are the most gratifying; that sex with animals has an especially desirable flavor; and that irresponsible sex has no adverse consequences.


According to the book Media, Children, and the Family: social Scientific, Psychodynamic, and Clinical Perspectives, research has shown that sexual arousal and accompanying excitedness diminish with repeated exposure to sexual scenes. As exposure to commonly shown sexual activities leaves consumers relatively unexcited, they are likely to seek out pornography that features novel and potentially less common sexual acts.


In addition, in a series of studies, researchers observed numerous persistent changes in perceptions concerning sexuality and sexual behavior after repeated exposing (i.e., six 1-hours weekly sessions) volunteers to pornography. These include the trivialization of rape as a criminal offense, exaggerated perceptions of the prevalence of most sexual practices, increased callousness toward female sexuality and concerns, dissatisfaction with sexual relationships and diminished caring for and trust in intimate partners.


In the book Back From Betrayal, author Jennifer P. Schneider, M.D., asserts that for some dissatisfied people, fantasizing about affairs is the first step to a real affair. She suggests that the fantasization process occupies such a large part of a person's inner world that little energy is left for the marital relationship.


According to Francine Klagsbrun, author of Married People: Staying Together in the Age of Divorce, the reason marriage provides the greatest possibility for intimacy is because marriage is predicated on the idea of exclusivity. And one of the differences between marriage and other friendships is the importance of exclusivity.


In the book, Men Confront Pornography, Michael S. Kimmel maintains that pornography is one of the major sources of sexual information that young males have about sexuality and is therefore the central mechanism by which their sexuality has been constructed. "Men can no longer hide behind pornography as harmless fun."

According to Francine Klagsbrun, author of Married People: Staying Together in the Age of Divorce, the reason marriage provides the greatest possibility for intimacy is because marriage is predicated on the idea of exclusivity. And one of the differences between marriage and other friendships is the importance of exclusivity.


In the book, Men Confront Pornography, Michael S. Kimmel maintains that pornography is one of the major sources of sexual information that young males have about sexuality and is therefore the central mechanism by which their sexuality has been constructed. "Men can no longer hide behind pornography as harmless fun."



VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND THE PORN INDUSTRY

Definition of Pornography:

Material that combines sex and/or exposure of the genitals with abuse or degradation in a manner that appears to endorse, condone, or encourage such behavior.

In other words, pornography is sexual media which makes violence against women appear sexy and/or consensual. Sometimes this is done covertly with embedded values about women that require critical interpretation of the image to identify the violence-sometimes the sexual violence and sexual abuse of children are blatantly eroticized.

Definition of Sexual Objectification:

Portrayal of human beings as depersonalized sex objects or body parts.

Porn presents a woman as a dehumanized sex object available for public consumption: to be acted upon then discarded. Objectification is also a staple in mainstream media. Both men and women have widely acknowledged that their understanding of women/themselves has been negatively impacted by the objectification and dehumanization so present in media.

Facts:

The word pornography comes from the ancient Greek pornea. It means “low whore,” and refers to the cheapest, most despised and literally disposable prostitute available. They were considered less than human.

Paper, video and filmed pornography is (at minimum) an 11 billion dollar a year industry. This does not include the billions of untracked dollars generated through the Internet. The porn industry is more profitable than the film and record industries combined.

Partial access to Internet porn sites is available to anyone, regardless of age, without identifying themselves through e-mail address or credit card. Samples, free tours of sites and previews give mostly uncensored access to anywhere from a few to hundreds of images. “Age-Check” mechanisms exist to make money for the porn industry (at 20 to 50 dollars a year per user, not including any purchases made at the site).

Many survivors of child sexual abuse and prostitution describe porn being used by their abusers either as a lead-up to the abuse or as ‘training’ for how to be with men. Many women describe their male partners using porn as the standard for how women should be sexual, either as ‘instruction’ or in judgement if she refused a certain sexual act. Forced or coerced use of porn is frequently an active part of abusive relationships.

Extreme racism is a staple in pornographic images of both women and men. Stereotypes based in race are used for both racist humor and targeted violent ‘fantasy.’ Asian women are portrayed as ‘passive’ targets of torture, Latina women are presented as enjoying violent rape, African-American women are shown as the sexual slaves of White men, etc. These stereotypes are acted out upon women of color every day.

Pornography is often defended as harmless ‘fantasy.’ Andrea Dworkin points out that it is not fantasy when real women are experiencing real things in front of the camera or as a result of the images.

There is more but I figure this is long enough.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 14th 2010, 06:06 AM
Many survivors of child sexual abuse and prostitution describe porn being used by their abusers either as a lead-up to the abuse or as ‘training’ for how to be with men

Not only that, but many survivors of child sexual abuse and prostitution also get into the porn industry. Approximately 90% of women in the porn industry have a background of sexual abuse, rape, and/or parental neglect. There is a reason why they allow themselves to be objetified and dehumanized in front of the camera like this. Not only that, but it is not uncommon for a woman to be abused and/or raped on a porn set.

I chose the option "other" for reasons that I had previously specified, that being, porneia doesn't only exist outside of marriage. It can also exist within the confines of the maritial relationship.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 14th 2010, 06:10 AM
Pornography is often defended as harmless ‘fantasy.’ Andrea Dworkin points out that it is not fantasy when real women are experiencing real things in front of the camera or as a result of the images.

I agree and disagree. Porn is certainly not harmless but it is a fantasy. What a person sees on the video is a far cry from what is really taking place on set. It is an unrealistic "fantasy" (i.e. lie) perpetrated by pornographers to sell videos.

yoshiyahu
Apr 14th 2010, 06:27 AM
My opinion is that porneia in these passages means some sort of sexually immoral lifestyle. My understanding is that the verb tense in greek is present tense ongoing action. That makes sense to me because if we take the whole counsel of scripture , we are supposed to forgive even large offenses. I don't see how God would recommend divorce because one partner sinned and now that gives the spouse the right to not forgive. So my thinking is it is related to someone who will not settle down to one person but insists on several sexual partners on an ongoing basis. It may even include multiple marriages.

BadDog
Apr 15th 2010, 11:29 AM
My opinion is that porneia in these passages means some sort of sexually immoral lifestyle. My understanding is that the verb tense in greek is present tense ongoing action. That makes sense to me because if we take the whole counsel of scripture , we are supposed to forgive even large offenses. I don't see how God would recommend divorce because one partner sinned and now that gives the spouse the right to not forgive. So my thinking is it is related to someone who will not settle down to one person but insists on several sexual partners on an ongoing basis. It may even include multiple marriages.Interesting ideas. let me share a few thoughts about the Greek present tense...

The Greek present tense is not "continual" or "ongoing" nor does it imply anything at all regarding the duration of the action (referred to as "aspect"). The Greek present tense is "linear" kind of action. That means that the action is not "point-in-time" (punctiliar) kind of action, but "ongoing" at the time (present) of occurrence. But it does not say anything about, nor does it imply, the duration of the action. In the indicative mood, the present tense must also portray both linear and punctiliar kind of action. (I've looked this up in several of the most popular grammars - like Robinson and Moulton.)

If I'm "throwing" the ball with my son in the front yard, that could have lasted for a minute, 10 minutes, two hours... but no one would assume that we never, ever, stopped throwing the ball. I think what yoshiyahu is referring to here is the gnomic present tense, which refers to repeated action. It must be very clear from the context, if this is the case. And it again does not assume continual action, but repeated action.

But I do think that you make a good point: we need to consider if the sexually immoral action is "ongoing" or a time or two. It does make a difference. I would be interested in what people here think about this aspect which yoshiyahu has brought to our attention. How does that affect whether or not the injured party is free to divorce, or does it at all?

Thx,

BD

moonglow
Apr 15th 2010, 02:21 PM
Interesting ideas. let me share a few thoughts about the Greek present tense...

The Greek present tense is not "continual" or "ongoing" nor does it imply anything at all regarding the duration of the action (referred to as "aspect"). The Greek present tense is "linear" kind of action. That means that the action is not "point-in-time" (punctiliar) kind of action, but "ongoing" at the time (present) of occurrence. But it does not say anything about, nor does it imply, the duration of the action. In the indicative mood, the present tense must also portray both linear and punctiliar kind of action. (I've looked this up in several of the most popular grammars - like Robinson and Moulton.)

If I'm "throwing" the ball with my son in the front yard, that could have lasted for a minute, 10 minutes, two hours... but no one would assume that we never, ever, stopped throwing the ball. I think what yoshiyahu is referring to here is the gnomic present tense, which refers to repeated action. It must be very clear from the context, if this is the case. And it again does not assume continual action, but repeated action.

But I do think that you make a good point: we need to consider if the sexually immoral action is "ongoing" or a time or two. It does make a difference. I would be interested in what people here think about this aspect which yoshiyahu has brought to our attention. How does that affect whether or not the injured party is free to divorce, or does it at all?

Thx,

BD

I know of married couples where one had an affair and it was truly a one time thing and the other was able to forgive and they stayed together...though it usually takes a long time to rebuild that trust of course. But then the other day I was listening to a Christian radio station called Intentional life which hosted by Dr. Randy Carlson that is a call in show. He deals with everyday family issues or individual personal issues. His goal to is to get people living an intentional life through Christ by setting goals and making progress on whatever issues they might be working on. They have Marriage Monday which I listen too off and on..since I am not married, I don't take a huge interest in that one..lol. Anyway this past Monday the topic was the wives submission in marriage and what that means. A lady called in and was talking about her marriage problems and how if she didn't do things right or made her husband mad he would go out and have an affair with some other lady ...his excuse was it was her fault for making him upset. :rolleyes:

Now obviously she isn't going to be perfect all the time and really shouldn't have to walk on egg shells to prevent him from doing this. Of course she was terribly wounded by this. This man was really just trying to justify his affairs by blaming her for them. It really a forum of abuse as far as I am concerned. Emotional abuse. I really felt bad for her. :cry: She was trying to be a submission wife but things got blurred to the point she was putting up with this thinking this was what being submissive meant.

In his case this was ongoing and while she begged him to find another way to 'even the score' or 'get back at her' he wasn't...he doesn't care one bit what this does to her. The truly horrible thing is eventually he will pick up a STD and give it to her. I saw a wife on another show dying of AIDS that she got from her husband who was having affairs. He abandoned her and their two sons who were left to care for her. :cry: It was truly awful.

When its ongoing like that I would tell any wife to leave him for her own health and well being! But something just separating can get a marriage going in the right direction when the husband sees what he could lose. But if he continues on like this then yea, I think she has every right biblically to divorce him.

God bless

cheech
Apr 15th 2010, 02:27 PM
I see it as two sides yes...physical and emotional, however, I don't believe that "fantasizing" only is grounds for divorce but it can cause major damage in your relationship that can lead to divorce. BUT if we are talking sexual immorality then I throw this scripture in:

"Keep away from sexual immorality. All other sins that people may commit are done outside the body; but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Do you not realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you and whom you received from God? You are not your own property, then; you have been bought at a price. So use your body for the glory of God." 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

When you view pornography and/or use your imagination (Noting Matthew 5 here) and then masturbate, you are sinning against your own body, pleasing the flesh. Your mind can generate a "third" person in your marriage that comes between you and your spouse whether that person is real or not. I was just talking to my husband about this the other day, something the Lord ministered to me. In the beginning (Genesis) the Lord created man and woman and they were to be one with each other and one with God...three...a good triangle...God being the head of that triangle and man and woman together at the bottom (equal to a point). God fills the void in us as well. When I think of this pattern I think of Ecclesiastes 4...the three cord strand, the triune, etc...all forming a strong bond and working together...which is what man and wife are to do together with God...work together. The enemy, who mimicks everything God does, came along and wanted to imitate that same "three pattern" or triangle only for the bad by shifting that focus off of God and onto himself. How does he do this? By replacing himself at the head of this pattern or triangle, through other people or things (addictions). This causes destruction. When he was able to shift the focus from what God had said to Adam and Eve and replace it with deception (the want of knowledge by eating the fruit) he filled a void with something temporary that caused damage to them. And that is what he continues to do today...he tempts one to believe and commit the sin and replaces the spouse with something else. Does it sound nuts? To some maybe but it made perfect sense to us as we've seen it happen.

Using pornography and/or your imagination can cause a third party to be in your marriage just as much as if the person were physical. The temptuous thoughts of the mind can be so strong it can replace your spouse and soon masturbation can become more pleasing than sex with your spouse. It's a control factor. Jayne gave a great example about a man who was having fantasy thoughts about a co-worker (who didn't know). This no doubt will cause major damage in their marriage causing the wife to feel not good enough, rejected, angry and have a lack of trust in her husband and his thoughts. She will then question any woman who comes into his life as to whether he is having thoughts of her or not whether he is or not.

Ta-An brought up another great point about keeping the eyes closed. In intimacy, you want to look at each other at times as it is arousing to watch the others pleasure but when you have one who is committing "adultery" in their mind and replacing their partner with someone else, their eyes will remain closed and this can also be damaging to the other spouse as well.

Good topic.

Ta-An
Apr 15th 2010, 03:23 PM
Ta-An brought up another great point about keeping the eyes closed. In intimacy, you want to look at each other at times as it is arousing to watch the others pleasure but when you have one who is committing "adultery" in their mind and replacing their partner with someone else, their eyes will remain closed and this can also be damaging to the other spouse as well.

Good topic.Yes cheech, then it becomes masturbation, but you can also add to that sexual-abuse, apart from that add also emotional abuse.

Ta-An
Apr 15th 2010, 03:24 PM
Ta-An brought up another great point about keeping the eyes closed. In intimacy, you want to look at each other at times as it is arousing to watch the others pleasure but when you have one who is committing "adultery" in their mind and replacing their partner with someone else, their eyes will remain closed and this can also be damaging to the other spouse as well.

Good topic.Yes cheech, then it becomes masturbation, but you can alos add to that sexual-abuse, apart from that add also emotional abuse.

daughter
Apr 15th 2010, 03:38 PM
Just because somebody closes their eyes, doesn't mean that they're fantasising about sex with someone else. Without wanting to be too detailed on sexual matters (this is a Christian board after all) I know that I did often commit sins of adultery in my heart when I was with my husband, but I also know that there were times when I closed my eyes because I just wanted to listen with my body to what we were doing together, and there was no adultery in my heart at all. There are times when the feeling is overwhelming, and rather than get emotionally overloaded you close your eyes so you can control yourself a little bit longer.

I certainly wouldn't want anyone reading this to feel that they were being betrayed because their husband, or wife, closed their eyes in a moment of pleasure. It's a natural human response.

Ta-An
Apr 15th 2010, 03:41 PM
Just because somebody closes their eyes, doesn't mean that they're fantasising about sex with someone else. I said, when they close their eyes and fantasize..... not that they fantasize if they close their eyes..

daughter
Apr 15th 2010, 03:50 PM
Ah, I misunderstood. Sorry.

Ta-An
Apr 15th 2010, 04:01 PM
Ah, I misunderstood. Sorry.

:hug: OK .

threebigrocks
Apr 15th 2010, 04:30 PM
What I don't understand is why we discount men's emotional side when discussing these things. Intent to satisfy a physical urge, acted on or not, doesn't mean there is no emotional consideration for men. For women it it's first. For men, it's after. There are emotions involved, and it does include more than the physical pleasure or fantasy. These things are just as emotionally damaging for both men and women.

Vhayes
Apr 15th 2010, 04:37 PM
What I don't understand is why we discount men's emotional side when discussing these things. Intent to satisfy a physical urge, acted on or not, doesn't mean there is no emotional consideration for men. For women it it's first. For men, it's after. There are emotions involved, and it does include more than the physical pleasure or fantasy. These things are just as emotionally damaging for both men and women.

I think they can be MORE emotionally damaging for men. Women admit the emotional need - men don't.

It's all a "pride" thing in my head. What "I" want matters more. That person wants "me" and whoa, look at them - they're ay more attractive than my spouse. Etc.

BadDog
Apr 15th 2010, 05:00 PM
I see it as two sides yes...physical and emotional, however, I don't believe that "fantasizing" only is grounds for divorce but it can cause major damage in your relationship that can lead to divorce. BUT if we are talking sexual immorality then I throw this scripture in:

"Keep away from sexual immorality. All other sins that people may commit are done outside the body; but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Do you not realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you and whom you received from God? You are not your own property, then; you have been bought at a price. So use your body for the glory of God." 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

When you view pornography and/or use your imagination (Noting Matthew 5 here) and then masturbate, you are sinning against your own body, pleasing the flesh. Your mind can generate a "third" person in your marriage that comes between you and your spouse whether that person is real or not. I was just talking to my husband about this the other day, something the Lord ministered to me.
cheech,

Nice comments. Thanks. I really appreciate these comments. I would like to share briefly about this text in 1 Corinthians 6:

The text actually says, "Keep away from sexual immorality. All [] sins that people may commit are done outside the body; but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body..."

The word "other" is not there in the Greek. It was assumed by some translators that in order for this to make sense, the idea of every OTHER sin was intended. But I see this as a Corinthian motto (which was wrong): "All sins which a person commits is outside the body." Paul objected, "But the sexually immoral person sins against his own body."

Earlier we read "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food." What the Corinthians were saying was that just as our stomachs were designed for food, so our sexual organs were designed for sex. IOW, do what you want, it's not wrong. Paul said, "Hold on. Not true."

There was another Corinthians motto earlier, "all things are lawful for me" and Paul responds, "but not all things are helpful (edifying)." It also occurs in chapter 10, and many theologians see these as mottos. I believe that is what we have here. IOW, I do not believe that sex is in some way distinguished from other sins and are sins against our bodies. There are many other sins which are against our bodies as well - for example gluttony. We should glorify the Lord with our bodies. That includes sex as well as many other things. Just because our sexual organs are not "bad" - God designed them - does not mean we can just go out and do whatever with them.

Thx again,

BD

threebigrocks
Apr 15th 2010, 05:33 PM
Oh, the emotional side comes out, it's admitted, once men realize the burden of the sin. Then it comes on like a freight train.

cheech
Apr 15th 2010, 06:07 PM
This is very true daughter...and guess I should have added in there it was in regards to extreme cases where there is a problem between a husband and wife. I also was speaking along the lines of what Ta-An was saying.

And for what I wrote...I was only speaking in general. Running a biblical recovery program we come across many different issues so I tend to speak in general alot...lol. Sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable.

Ta-An
Apr 16th 2010, 09:09 AM
I heard something on the radio this morning that I thought so applicable for this thread...... and now I forgot :mad:

....about sinning in your mind....

moonglow
Apr 16th 2010, 03:25 PM
Just because somebody closes their eyes, doesn't mean that they're fantasising about sex with someone else. Without wanting to be too detailed on sexual matters (this is a Christian board after all) I know that I did often commit sins of adultery in my heart when I was with my husband, but I also know that there were times when I closed my eyes because I just wanted to listen with my body to what we were doing together, and there was no adultery in my heart at all. There are times when the feeling is overwhelming, and rather than get emotionally overloaded you close your eyes so you can control yourself a little bit longer.

I certainly wouldn't want anyone reading this to feel that they were being betrayed because their husband, or wife, closed their eyes in a moment of pleasure. It's a natural human response.

I agree...some of us are shy and want our eyes closed and the room dark...though I have heard many men would like to be able to see. There are some things better felt then seen and I don't think closing your eyes means a thing actually. Its just what individuals prefer. I suppose a sudden change from what is normal for your spouse might mean something...but I would sure hate to start wondering about them based on that.

And yea btw, I think men are much more emotional in their sexual sins then people think. Other wise why would so many leave their spouse because they 'fell in love' with the person they were committing adultery with?

God bless