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Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2010, 12:15 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, did Jesus command the apostles to keep the law of Moses? If he did, why did they not teach observation to it, why were they against those that did teach observation to it?

If Jesus did not command it and the Apostles did not teach observance to it, whose doctrine are we following it we teach observance of the the law of Moses?

Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 15:1 - 291 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

What did Jesus command the Apostles?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

notuptome
Apr 12th 2010, 01:31 PM
Did Jesus command the apostles who were Jewish to do things that He does not expect believers as gentiles to observe?

Jesus demonstrated the observance of Jewish traditions to the Jews. He demonstrated foot washing, communion and participated in John's water baptism. He commanded all to believe on Him unto salvation. As He ascended into heaven He commanded that all be witnesses of Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2010, 02:19 PM
Did Jesus command the apostles who were Jewish to do things that He does not expect believers as gentiles to observe?

Jesus demonstrated the observance of Jewish traditions to the Jews. He demonstrated foot washing, communion and participated in John's water baptism. He commanded all to believe on Him unto salvation. As He ascended into heaven He commanded that all be witnesses of Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jesus said that what ever he has commanded them should be taught and observerd, so if Jesus commanded them to keep the law of Moses then they were commanded to teach the same to all.

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What did Jesus command his dsciples?

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 12th 2010, 02:34 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, did Jesus command the apostles to keep the law of Moses? If he did, why did they not teach observation to it, why were they against those that did teach observation to it?
Romans 13:8-10 KJV Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Acts 25:8 KJV While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Frecs
Apr 12th 2010, 02:44 PM
What did Jesus command his dsciples?

Firstfruits

Matthew 6: When you give....When you fast....When you pray...
Mark 16:15: Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

That's a start...perhaps someone can add to it?

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2010, 03:23 PM
Romans 13:8-10 KJV Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Acts 25:8 KJV While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Was reffering to the law of Moses?

Romans 13:8-10 KJV Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Was Paul commanded to keep the law of Moses?

Acts 25:8 KJV While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2010, 03:24 PM
Matthew 6: When you give....When you fast....When you pray...
Mark 16:15: Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

That's a start...perhaps someone can add to it?

Did Jesus command the disciples to keep the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 12th 2010, 03:29 PM
Did Jesus command the disciples to keep the law of Moses?

FirstfruitsMatthew 23:1-3 KJV
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Frecs
Apr 12th 2010, 03:29 PM
Did Jesus command the disciples to keep the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

I guess that depends on how you interrupt his words in Matthew chapter 5. Here he mentions several commandments and then says that we should do even better--he sets the bar even higher. The ones he mentions are the "moral" code, not the sacrificial or "kosher" laws.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2010, 03:39 PM
Matthew 23:1-3 KJV
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

With the understanding that this was before the plan for salvation was fulfilled would we still be expected to keep the law of Moses knowing that the disciples did not command it to be observed?

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Whatever the disciples we commanded by Jesus, we must also do, so what do the apostles teach concerning the law of Moses?

What is the Apostles doctrine?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2010, 03:56 PM
If the disciples did not teach what they were commanded to observe, then is their doctrine according to the will of God?

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Firstfruits

RockSolid
Apr 12th 2010, 03:58 PM
If we are to keep the Law, then we better start sacrificing some goats, not picking fruit off a new tree till the fourth year, not farming the land once every seven years, and you need to build a rail on your roof so noone will fall off.

Paul gives us the answer. We no longer observe the Law of Moses, but live by faith now. Actually he says anyone still trying to live the Law is foolish.
Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, He is the Law now.

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing?
5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.
8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

notuptome
Apr 12th 2010, 07:17 PM
Where did Jesus command for believers to keep the Jewish law?

Where did the apostles command believers to keep the Jewish law?

Believers are made the righteousness of God in Christ. 2 Cor 5:21

If the word of God was a schoolmaster to the Jew what is its purpose for the believer? The word of God is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. The Holy Spirit uses the word of God to lead us in paths of righteousness for His names sake. We are not made any more righteous by obedience but we are obedient because we hungar and thirst after righteousness, His righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Kahtar
Apr 12th 2010, 07:27 PM
We are not made any more righteous by obedience but we are obedient because we hungar and thirst after righteousness, His righteousness.Not because we hunger and thirst after righteousness, because our righteousness is in Christ. Rather, we desire to live holy before Him, and pleasing to Him. He has written that law on our hearts, so that we DESIRE to be obedient.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2010, 09:15 PM
I guess that depends on how you interrupt his words in Matthew chapter 5. Here he mentions several commandments and then says that we should do even better--he sets the bar even higher. The ones he mentions are the "moral" code, not the sacrificial or "kosher" laws.

What is it that must be fulfilled before the law is destroyed, is it regarding the plan of salvation?

Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2010, 09:21 PM
If we are to keep the Law, then we better start sacrificing some goats, not picking fruit off a new tree till the fourth year, not farming the land once every seven years, and you need to build a rail on your roof so noone will fall off.

Paul gives us the answer. We no longer observe the Law of Moses, but live by faith now. Actually he says anyone still trying to live the Law is foolish.
Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, He is the Law now.

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing?
5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.
8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

From what is written the disciples were not teaching observance to the law, this means that if Jesus had commanded them to teach observance to the law then they were not in the will of God.

Firstfruits

Servant89
Apr 12th 2010, 09:23 PM
Did Jesus command the disciples to keep the law of Moses? Firstfruits

Before the cross and the resurrection, we were under the law, but once the lamb of God took care of all our sins for ever, we are no longer bound by the law, we are not under the law anymore, what Jesus commanded us to follow was to do business by love. That is what 2Cor 3 is about, the law is no longer on the outside of us, written in stone, it is in our hearts. That means, when we say the truth it is not because we have to, it is because we want to. And there is a huge difference in that. The two commandments that Jesus gave us are these:

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

That means forget about te 613 commandments in the law of Moses, use these two instead, love God and love people.

Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. This is repeated in 2Cor 3:1-18, Eph 2:15 and Col 2:14. They no longer apply to us.

Lk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Shalom

Frecs
Apr 12th 2010, 09:26 PM
What is it that must be fulfilled before the law is destroyed, is it regarding the plan of salvation?

Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Firstfruits

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Christ fulfilled the Law through His death on the cross.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2010, 09:31 PM
Before the cross and the resurrection, we were under the law, but once the lamb of God took care of all our sins for ever, we are no longer bound by the law, we are not under the law anymore, what Jesus commanded us to follow was to do business by love. That is what 2Cor 3 is about, the law is no longer on the outside of us, written in stone, it is in our hearts. That means, when we say the truth it is not because we have to, it is because we want to. And there is a huge difference in that. The two commandments that Jesus gave us are these:

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

That means forget about te 613 commandments in the law of Moses, use these two instead, love God and love people.

Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. This is repeated in 2Cor 3:1-18, Eph 2:15 and Col 2:14. They no longer apply to us.

Lk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Shalom

Would it be fair to say that the disciples made it clear that we are not commanded to observe the law, and that they have not commanded any to teach observance to it?

Firstfruits

Nomad
Apr 12th 2010, 10:39 PM
Would it be fair to say that the disciples made it clear that we are not commanded to observe the law, and that they have not commanded any to teach observance to it?

Firstfruits

The civil and ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law have been abolished. The civil aspect applied only to Israel as a theocratic kingdom and passed away with the advent of Christ and the dissolution of Israel. The ceremonial aspect was composed of types and shadows of Christ's work of redemption and as such have been fulfilled.

The moral aspect as found in the 10 commandments still applies to us today. As Servant89 pointed out, they are comprehended under the command to love God and neighbor. They're not to be observed as a covenant of works whereby we merit salvation, but as the fruit and outworking of love for God and neighbor which is the will of God for His people.

Servant89
Apr 12th 2010, 11:47 PM
Would it be fair to say that the disciples made it clear that we are not commanded to observe the law, and that they have not commanded any to teach observance to it?

Firstfruits

That is correct. We are not commanded to be under the law, but are now driven (not by a command, but by God's spirit) to love God and love people, we do the right thing because we want to.

We are commanded to believe the law does not apply to us anymore, Gal 2:21 for if righteousness comes by the law, Christ died in vail. You see, if I want to kill someone but I do not do it because I do not want to go to jail, I have fulfilled the commandment of Thou shalt not kill, I have fulfilled the law but I do not look good before God. I look white on the outside but inside I stink.

Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

The whole law is inside love God and love people. But when it is inside us it means we do the right thing because we want to do it, not because we HAVE to do it (big difference!). There is freedom from the law. The law brings bondage.

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but All things are not expedient: All things are lawful for me, but All things edify not.

1 Cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

1 Cor 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Shalom

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2010, 09:01 AM
The civil and ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law have been abolished. The civil aspect applied only to Israel as a theocratic kingdom and passed away with the advent of Christ and the dissolution of Israel. The ceremonial aspect was composed of types and shadows of Christ's work of redemption and as such have been fulfilled.

The moral aspect as found in the 10 commandments still applies to us today. As Servant89 pointed out, they are comprehended under the command to love God and neighbor. They're not to be observed as a covenant of works whereby we merit salvation, but as the fruit and outworking of love for God and neighbor which is the will of God for His people.

Thank you Nomad,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2010, 09:04 AM
That is correct. We are not commanded to be under the law, but are now driven (not by a command, but by God's spirit) to love God and love people, we do the right thing because we want to.

We are commanded to believe the law does not apply to us anymore, Gal 2:21 for if righteousness comes by the law, Christ died in vail. You see, if I want to kill someone but I do not do it because I do not want to go to jail, I have fulfilled the commandment of Thou shalt not kill, I have fulfilled the law but I do not look good before God. I look white on the outside but inside I stink.

Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

The whole law is inside love God and love people. But when it is inside us it means we do the right thing because we want to do it, not because we HAVE to do it (big difference!). There is freedom from the law. The law brings bondage.

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but All things are not expedient: All things are lawful for me, but All things edify not.

1 Cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

1 Cor 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Shalom

Amen, agreed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2010, 03:58 PM
If Jesus did not command observance to the law of Moses and the disciples did not teach observance to it, except for a few that were rebuked for doing so, who's doctrine are we following or abiding in if we teach observance to the law of Moses?

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2010, 08:32 PM
What are the things that we are taught to command and teach, according to the scriptures?

Firstfruits

Servant89
Apr 13th 2010, 09:55 PM
What are the things that we are taught to command and teach, according to the scriptures?

Firstfruits

Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Shalom

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2010, 10:01 PM
Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.How do you do that?

RockSolid
Apr 13th 2010, 10:26 PM
How do you do that?

Putting others needs before your own, helping the poor, being a light to the world, pray for people, and be willing to lay your life down for others!
I have a note in my wallet with a list of things that I should do everyday I'm around someone. #1 says "Do good to others every opportunity I get." What it means is, LOOK for good to do at every moment, don't just do good when a situation arises that someone needs help.

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2010, 10:32 PM
Putting others needs before your own, helping the poor, being a light to the world, pray for people, and be willing to lay your life down for others!
I have a note in my wallet with a list of things that I should do everyday I'm around someone. #1 says "Do good to others every opportunity I get." What it means is, LOOK for good to do at every moment, don't just do good when a situation arises that someone needs help.Okay, good answer, and good thing to do.
Do you do those things to earn righteousness, or earn your way to heaven, or because God has put the desire to do those things in your heart because you love Him? Or some other reason?

RockSolid
Apr 13th 2010, 10:55 PM
Okay, good answer, and good thing to do.
Do you do those things to earn righteousness, or earn your way to heaven, or because God has put the desire to do those things in your heart because you love Him? Or some other reason?

Noone can earn anything. Faith through Jesus Christ is the only way we get anything. But if the Holy Spirit dwells within you, then it makes you want to do those things.
Sometimes when we Christians do good things, we don't feel the Spirit in it at all. Sometimes we just do it because it's the right thing to do, Amen!

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 13th 2010, 10:56 PM
You do it to glorify God. Because you desire to Glorify God. Because you love God and therefore want to please him. Because when you love somebody you want to do things for them, and help them. Because one's sould is only truly satisfied when it is serving the one they love.

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ (Matthew 25:37-40)

17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.(James 4:17)

You do it because you want to do it. Because the desire to serve Him has been written on your heart.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 13th 2010, 10:59 PM
Noone can earn anything. Faith through Jesus Christ is the only way we get anything. But if the Holy Spirit dwells within you, then it makes you want to do those things.
Sometimes when we Christians do good things, we don't feel the Spirit in it at all. Sometimes we just do it because it's the right thing to do, Amen!

Yep, the fact that we have been released from the law is what gives us the opportunity to serve out of love, and love alone. The perfect plan!

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2010, 11:05 PM
Noone can earn anything. Faith through Jesus Christ is the only way we get anything. But if the Holy Spirit dwells within you, then it makes you want to do those things.
Sometimes when we Christians do good things, we don't feel the Spirit in it at all. Sometimes we just do it because it's the right thing to do, Amen!You are correct. Would it surprise you to know that all of those good works you mentioned are in the Mosaic covenant?

Gulah, bingo! Absolutely correct.
1 John 2:3-5 KJV And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 5:2-3 KJV By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2010, 11:54 AM
You are correct. Would it surprise you to know that all of those good works you mentioned are in the Mosaic covenant?

Gulah, bingo! Absolutely correct.
1 John 2:3-5 KJV And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 5:2-3 KJV By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

What are the good works that are mentioned in the Mosaic law with regards to the following, knowing that no man is justfied by the works of the law?

1 Tim 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are justified when we do the works of the law of liberty according to the following so they cannot be the same administration.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

If what Jesus commanded is the same as what Moses commanded there must be justification in both, but there is not.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2010, 12:19 PM
How do you do that?

According to the following love worketh no ill to his brother, by doing this we know that we are born of God.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

In the following scripture, what does it mean when it says the end of the commandment is charity?

1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Why is it said that those that teach the law have strayed from the faith?

1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1 Tim 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 14th 2010, 01:27 PM
Why is it said that those that teach the law have strayed from the faith?
1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1 Tim 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
You seem to be suggesting that I am 'teaching the law' and thus have strayed from the faith. Forgive me if I'm reading into what you said.
Those who teach that salvation, justification, righteousness come from works of the law have strayed from the faith, for by so doing, they are teaching that Christ's work on the cross was not enough, or not needed at all.
Those who teach that salvation, justification, and righteousness come by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and that good works (obedience to the law) are a natural result of their righteousness in Christ and their love toward God are simply teaching the same thing that Paul, Peter, John, and James taught.
I guarantee you, you have NEVER seen me teaching justification by the law.
To suggest that I am is to also suggest that Paul, Peter, John and James did as well.
As to your question about what are the good works mentioned in the Mosaic covenant, may I suggest googling 'laws of Moses' or 'Mosaic law'. You can read all 613 for yourself.
If you do that, you will discover that the average Christian, including those who are adament about not doing the law for fear of coming under a curse, are obeying 150-200 of the 613 in their daily lives, if they are a Christian.
Since all the law, the 10 commandments and the entire Mosaic law, are based upon loving God and loving your neighbor, if you do those two, you are also doing them all.
Question:Is there a difference between God's law and Christ's law? If so, what?

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2010, 01:43 PM
You seem to be suggesting that I am 'teaching the law' and thus have strayed from the faith. Forgive me if I'm reading into what you said.
Those who teach that salvation, justification, righteousness come from works of the law have strayed from the faith, for by so doing, they are teaching that Christ's work on the cross was not enough, or not needed at all.
Those who teach that salvation, justification, and righteousness come by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and that good works (obedience to the law) are a natural result of their righteousness in Christ and their love toward God are simply teaching the same thing that Paul, Peter, John, and James taught.
I guarantee you, you have NEVER seen me teaching justification by the law.
To suggest that I am is to also suggest that Paul, Peter, John and James did as well.
As to your question about what are the good works mentioned in the Mosaic covenant, may I suggest googling 'laws of Moses' or 'Mosaic law'. You can read all 613 for yourself.
If you do that, you will discover that the average Christian, including those who are adament about not doing the law for fear of coming under a curse, are obeying 150-200 of the 613 in their daily lives, if they are a Christian.
Since all the law, the 10 commandments and the entire Mosaic law, are based upon loving God and loving your neighbor, if you do those two, you are also doing them all.
Question:Is there a difference between God's law and Christ's law? If so, what?

I am asking because of what is written concerning those that teach observance to the law. There is nothing wrong with teaching the law, it is the observance to it that is not according to faith and what we have been commanded to observe.

1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1 Tim 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 14th 2010, 02:32 PM
I am asking because of what is written concerning those that teach observance to the law. There is nothing wrong with teaching the law, it is the observance to it that is not according to faith and what we have been commanded to observe.

1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1 Tim 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
God bless you!
FirstfruitsThank you. And God bless you too.
You didn't answer my question, BTW. And let me add one more:
Is there a difference between God's law and Christ's law, and if so, what?
How do you define observance to the law?

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2010, 04:00 PM
Thank you. And God bless you too.
You didn't answer my question, BTW. And let me add one more:
Is there a difference between God's law and Christ's law, and if so, what?
How do you define observance to the law?

Question:Is there a difference between God's law and Christ's law? If so, what?

There is a difference between Gods law given through Moses and Gods law given through Jesus.

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

What ever we do according to the law of Moses, there is no justification, but whatever we do accoding to the law of Christ we are justified.

If they are the same then there would be no difference, justification would come by the deeds of the law.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by The deeds of The law There shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by The law is The knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without The deeds of The law.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 14th 2010, 06:56 PM
Question:Is there a difference between God's law and Christ's law? If so, what?

There is a difference between Gods law given through Moses and Gods law given through Jesus.

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
What ever we do according to the law of Moses, there is no justification, but whatever we do accoding to the law of Christ we are justified.
If they are the same then there would be no difference, justification would come by the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by The deeds of The law There shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by The law is The knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without The deeds of The law.
FirstfruitsVery good answer FF. You are absolutely correct. That perfectly describes the difference in the use of the law in the two covenants. It didn't however, explain the differences in the old covenant and the new covenant themselves.
Let me help a little in what I'm after. We know the requirements of the old covenant, the 613, etc. What are the requirements of the new covenant? One might say 'faith', which would be correct, but James suggests that faith is dead if it stands alone. So there is clearly more to it than just faith.

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2010, 09:37 PM
Very good answer FF. You are absolutely correct. That perfectly describes the difference in the use of the law in the two covenants. It didn't however, explain the differences in the old covenant and the new covenant themselves.
Let me help a little in what I'm after. We know the requirements of the old covenant, the 613, etc. What are the requirements of the new covenant? One might say 'faith', which would be correct, but James suggests that faith is dead if it stands alone. So there is clearly more to it than just faith.

We are therefore back to what did Jesus command?

1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

What is charity?

Firstfruits

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 14th 2010, 11:22 PM
Charity is giving without expecting any personal return on your 'investment'. No strings attached. A one way street. Give. Give to His children. Give to your brethren. If God decides to reward you, great. If not, also great. Rewards are not just beside the point, they are not even in the conversation. That is how I understand charity.

Kahtar
Apr 15th 2010, 04:37 AM
We are therefore back to what did Jesus command?

1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

What is charity?
FirstfruitsThe word charity there of course is the greek word agape, which is, simply, love.
Jesus commanded us to love. But so did the old covenant. The old covenant said to love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and also to love your neighbor as yourself.
Faith also is found in the old covenant:
Habakkuk 2:4 KJV Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
My question was what was the difference between the two?
Jesus said that if we fulfill those two, we fulfill the whole law. What law was He talking about?

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2010, 07:44 AM
The word charity there of course is the greek word agape, which is, simply, love.
Jesus commanded us to love. But so did the old covenant. The old covenant said to love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and also to love your neighbor as yourself.
Faith also is found in the old covenant:
Habakkuk 2:4 KJV Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
My question was what was the difference between the two?
Jesus said that if we fulfill those two, we fulfill the whole law. What law was He talking about?

Jesus said what ever he has commanded them to observe, that is what they are to teach.

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1 Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2010, 07:47 AM
Charity is giving without expecting any personal return on your 'investment'. No strings attached. A one way street. Give. Give to His children. Give to your brethren. If God decides to reward you, great. If not, also great. Rewards are not just beside the point, they are not even in the conversation. That is how I understand charity.

Thank you Gulah Papyrus,

1 Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 15th 2010, 03:28 PM
Jesus said what ever he has commanded them to observe, that is what they are to teach.
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
1 Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
God bless you!
FirstfruitsYes, but my question was

what was the difference between the two?
Jesus said that if we fulfill those two, we fulfill the whole law. What law was He talking about?

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2010, 03:32 PM
Yes, but my question was

It was not the law of Moses because although you may find love in the law doing so does not fulfil it.

It the law of Christ as we have hear from the begining.

1 Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 15th 2010, 04:10 PM
It was not the law of Moses because although you may find love in the law doing so does not fulfil it.
It the law of Christ as we have hear from the begining.
1 Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Firstfruits
Assuming that you believe in the Trinity, and thatChrist is part of the Godhead, and therefore is God, as John 1 declares, then what you are postulating is that God's law is done away with and we now live according to God's law.
Further, what you are saying, it appears, is that we no longer love God with all our heart soul mind and strength, but now we love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and that we no longer love our neighbor, but now love our neighbor.
If you love God, how do you know whether you are obeying the OT command to love Him, or the NT command to love Him?
Hebrews chapter 8 tells us that the priesthood and the covenant were an example and shadow of heavenly things. Shadows cast by the Shadowmaker, so to speak.
1 Corintians 15 explains that the natural is first, then the spiritual. This applies to Adam and Christ, and is seen in Cain and Abel, Esau and Jacob, Ishmael and Isaac, and yes, in Israel and the Church. It is seen in the covenant as well. The old covenant was natural, carried out in the natural. The new covenant is spiritual, carried out in the spiritual. But, the old covenant is the shadow, or picture, of the new covenant, made according to pattern, made according to the real deal, thus the two are very similar.
In the new covenant, which is spiritual, we have the SAME LAW written upon our hearts, as is seen in Hebrews 8.
The thing is, the spiritual must carry over into the natural. Faith without works is dead. Nowhere are we commanded to stop doing good. Everywhere we are commanded to do good. And the act of doing good is the outward fulfillment of the spiritual law written upon our hearts.
So, what about the sacrifices, and the priesthood, etc.?
Christ is now our High Priest. We no longer have the shadow, but the Shadowmaker. But we STILL HAVE THE HIGH PRIEST.
We are now a holy priesthood, and we are to offer up spiritual sacrifices, as 1 Peter 2 tells us. So THERE STILL REMAINS A PRIESTHOOD AND SACRIFICES, but now we deal not with shadows and pictures, but the real thing, the spiritual.
The old covenant has indeed passed, and been replaced with the new covenant. But the old covenant was a pattern, a picture, a shadow, a copy, of the new covenant.
The difference between the two covenants that you were so reluctant to speak about is simply the fact that one is natural and the other physical. One is a picture of the other, patterned after the other.
The temple itself was made according to pattern also. It was patterned after the real temple in heaven. And, that real temple is Christ, and we are Christ's body, and thus part of that temple, and thus Solomon's temple was patterned after Christ and us.
The courtyard exists in our outward flesh, the holy place exists within our soul, and the Holy of Holies exists within our spirit, where the Spirit of God dwells, and where that law is written upon our hearts.
Are we under the law? No. Do we still obey it? Yes. Do we obey the law to gain righteousness? No. Do we obey the law because we desire to be obedience to our High Priest, because we love Him? Yes. 'If ye love me, keep my commandments'.
In the verse that says loving God and neighbor fulfills the whole law, the whole law is speaking of the entirety of the law written upon our hearts.
If you carefully and prayerfully examine the 613 laws of the old covenant, you will find that the simple act of love, either for God or for neighbor, will fulfill every one of them. The entire 613 teaches us HOW to love. It also serves to show us that we, in our own strength, cannot possibly obey it all. The law is the standard of absolute perfection. None of us can live up to that standard. So the intent of the written law was to show us our NEED for Christ. Only IN CHRIST are we able. And only in spirit.
All the churches teach us that we should not sin. The scripture teaches us clearly that sin is the transgression of the law, in 1 John 3. Thus, the church IS teaching obedience to the law by teaching us to not sin.

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2010, 09:06 PM
Assuming that you believe in the Trinity, and thatChrist is part of the Godhead, and therefore is God, as John 1 declares, then what you are postulating is that God's law is done away with and we now live according to God's law.
Further, what you are saying, it appears, is that we no longer love God with all our heart soul mind and strength, but now we love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and that we no longer love our neighbor, but now love our neighbor.
If you love God, how do you know whether you are obeying the OT command to love Him, or the NT command to love Him?
Hebrews chapter 8 tells us that the priesthood and the covenant were an example and shadow of heavenly things. Shadows cast by the Shadowmaker, so to speak.
1 Corintians 15 explains that the natural is first, then the spiritual. This applies to Adam and Christ, and is seen in Cain and Abel, Esau and Jacob, Ishmael and Isaac, and yes, in Israel and the Church. It is seen in the covenant as well. The old covenant was natural, carried out in the natural. The new covenant is spiritual, carried out in the spiritual. But, the old covenant is the shadow, or picture, of the new covenant, made according to pattern, made according to the real deal, thus the two are very similar.
In the new covenant, which is spiritual, we have the SAME LAW written upon our hearts, as is seen in Hebrews 8.
The thing is, the spiritual must carry over into the natural. Faith without works is dead. Nowhere are we commanded to stop doing good. Everywhere we are commanded to do good. And the act of doing good is the outward fulfillment of the spiritual law written upon our hearts.
So, what about the sacrifices, and the priesthood, etc.?
Christ is now our High Priest. We no longer have the shadow, but the Shadowmaker. But we STILL HAVE THE HIGH PRIEST.
We are now a holy priesthood, and we are to offer up spiritual sacrifices, as 1 Peter 2 tells us. So THERE STILL REMAINS A PRIESTHOOD AND SACRIFICES, but now we deal not with shadows and pictures, but the real thing, the spiritual.
The old covenant has indeed passed, and been replaced with the new covenant. But the old covenant was a pattern, a picture, a shadow, a copy, of the new covenant.
The difference between the two covenants that you were so reluctant to speak about is simply the fact that one is natural and the other physical. One is a picture of the other, patterned after the other.
The temple itself was made according to pattern also. It was patterned after the real temple in heaven. And, that real temple is Christ, and we are Christ's body, and thus part of that temple, and thus Solomon's temple was patterned after Christ and us.
The courtyard exists in our outward flesh, the holy place exists within our soul, and the Holy of Holies exists within our spirit, where the Spirit of God dwells, and where that law is written upon our hearts.
Are we under the law? No. Do we still obey it? Yes. Do we obey the law to gain righteousness? No. Do we obey the law because we desire to be obedience to our High Priest, because we love Him? Yes. 'If ye love me, keep my commandments'.
In the verse that says loving God and neighbor fulfills the whole law, the whole law is speaking of the entirety of the law written upon our hearts.
If you carefully and prayerfully examine the 613 laws of the old covenant, you will find that the simple act of love, either for God or for neighbor, will fulfill every one of them. The entire 613 teaches us HOW to love. It also serves to show us that we, in our own strength, cannot possibly obey it all. The law is the standard of absolute perfection. None of us can live up to that standard. So the intent of the written law was to show us our NEED for Christ. Only IN CHRIST are we able. And only in spirit.
All the churches teach us that we should not sin. The scripture teaches us clearly that sin is the transgression of the law, in 1 John 3. Thus, the church IS teaching obedience to the law by teaching us to not sin.

What you are saying, that I am saying, is that the apostles were against the teachers of the law, and stated that they did not commanded it to be taught, so should we not abide and teach what the disciples have been commanded to teach?

Is the disciples doctrine against the will of God?


1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1 Tim 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

When we are commanded to "Teach no other doctrine" other than what the disciples have given/taught who should we follow?

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 16th 2010, 01:00 AM
What you are saying, that I am saying, is that the apostles were against the teachers of the law, and stated that they did not commanded it to be taught, so should we not abide and teach what the disciples have been commanded to teach?
Is the disciples doctrine against the will of God?
1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1 Tim 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
When we are commanded to "Teach no other doctrine" other than what the disciples have given/taught who should we follow?
FirstfruitsWe should teach what the apostles taught. But we should understand what they actually did teach before we go trying to teach it ourselves.
Paul taught that the law cannot save us, that salvation is by grace through faith in what Christ accomplished on the cross. And he taught that those who teach salvation is by obedience to the law have 'swerved and turned aside', etc.
But he did not teach against the law or obedience to it. He was accused of that by the Pharisees, but he himself obeyed the law and taught others to as well.
The difference is the reason for obedience. Obedience for salvation is rejecting the work of Christ on the cross. Obedience for love and living a holy life is what Paul taught. And Jesus, and Peter, and John, and James, etc.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 2:3-6 KJV
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Paul, and Jesus, did teach against the oral torah, the commandments of men, those ordinances that were against us, like the separation of Jew and Gentile, which is not in God's law, but is in the oral tradition.

losthorizon
Apr 16th 2010, 02:03 AM
We should teach what the apostles taught. But we should understand what they actually did teach before we go trying to teach it ourselves.

<snip>

Paul, and Jesus, did teach against the oral torah, the commandments of men, those ordinances that were against us, like the separation of Jew and Gentile, which is not in God's law, but is in the oral tradition.

And if we are going to understand and teach concerning “the law” as presented in the NT it is important to make the distinguish between the Law of Christ - a law based upon “faith” not “works’ and the Law of Moses - a law based upon “works.” The Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ and annulled when it was nailed to the cross - never to be binding on Christians. Christians live and die under the law of Christ – a law based on the principles of faith and love. Christ’s law is summed up in the words of John…
And this is his commandment, we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment. ~ 1 John 3:23

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. ~ Galatians 6:2

losthorizon
Apr 16th 2010, 02:12 AM
Is there a difference between God's law and Christ's law, and if so, what?


Christ's law is God's law. Question for you - is there a difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ? Are Christians today bound by the law of Moses or was it made obsolete and taken out of the way by the work of Christ on the cross?
​Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross ~ Col 2:14

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 16th 2010, 02:26 AM
If what Jesus commanded is the same as what Moses commanded there must be justification in both, but there is not.

Firstfruits

1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.(Genesis 15:1-6)

Justification has always been through faith.

losthorizon
Apr 16th 2010, 02:33 AM
Justification has always been through faith.
Faith that obeys through love..."by faith...Abraham obeyed..."

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2010, 08:44 AM
We should teach what the apostles taught. But we should understand what they actually did teach before we go trying to teach it ourselves.
Paul taught that the law cannot save us, that salvation is by grace through faith in what Christ accomplished on the cross. And he taught that those who teach salvation is by obedience to the law have 'swerved and turned aside', etc.
But he did not teach against the law or obedience to it. He was accused of that by the Pharisees, but he himself obeyed the law and taught others to as well.
The difference is the reason for obedience. Obedience for salvation is rejecting the work of Christ on the cross. Obedience for love and living a holy life is what Paul taught. And Jesus, and Peter, and John, and James, etc.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 2:3-6 KJV
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Paul, and Jesus, did teach against the oral torah, the commandments of men, those ordinances that were against us, like the separation of Jew and Gentile, which is not in God's law, but is in the oral tradition.

According to the following scriptures Paul taught against observance to the law of Moses.

Acts 15:23-2923 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

If Jesus commanded it to be taught and observed, why then did Paul not command it to be taught, as it was being taught?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 16th 2010, 12:13 PM
And if we are going to understand and teach concerning “the law” as presented in the NT it is important to make the distinguish between the Law of Christ - a law based upon “faith” not “works’ and the Law of Moses - a law based upon “works.” The Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ and annulled when it was nailed to the cross - never to be binding on Christians. Christians live and die under the law of Christ – a law based on the principles of faith and love. Christ’s law is summed up in the words of John…
And this is his commandment, we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment. ~ 1 John 3:23

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. ~ Galatians 6:2
Yes, the law of Moses, which he got directly from God, and therefore God's law, was a law based upon works, as I said in my post that you didn't read. And the law of Christ, who also is God, and therefore God's law, is a law based on the principles of faith, which I also said in my post that you didn't read.
It's the same law, based upon the same principle of loving God and loving neighbor, but one is natural, the other spiritual.

Kahtar
Apr 16th 2010, 12:21 PM
Christ's law is God's law.Agreed.

Question for you - is there a difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ?Yes. Go back and read my posts.
[/quote]Are Christians today bound by the law of Moses or was it made obsolete and taken out of the way by the work of Christ on the cross?[/quote]Again, go back and read my posts. Are we bound to the law for salvation? NO. Are we bound to the law for righteousness? NO. Are we bound to the law because of love? YES.


​Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross ~ Col 2:14Do you understand what the 'handwriting of ordinances that was against us is? If you think it was the law, you don't understand it.
Every person will stand before the judgment and give an account of the things he did and said in this life. Every sin committed will be made known. How? It's been recorded. Every sin will be paid for by death. For those who have accepted Christ, the death is already paid, and thus the handwriting that was against us has been blotted out. Those who have not accepted Christ will pay with their own death. Theirs has not been blotted out.

Kahtar
Apr 16th 2010, 12:42 PM
According to the following scriptures Paul taught against observance to the law of Moses.

Acts 15:23-2923 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

If Jesus commanded it to be taught and observed, why then did Paul not command it to be taught, as it was being taught?

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Paul taught against observance to the law of Moses for salvation. Paul later went to Jerusalem, where he was accused of teaching against the law, and to show them that he was NOT teaching against the law, took another and had him circumcized.
Paul did not teach against the law, he taught against using it for salvation or justification. Circumcision means nothing in regard to salvation. It does not justify anyone, either Jew or Greek.
Water baptism doesn't justify anyone either, yet Jesus Himself went to John to be baptised. Why?
Matthew 3:15 KJV
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Observing the Sabbath doesn't justify anyone, so why do it? Same reason. We can keep every day holy if we want. But it 'becomes us to fulfil all righteousness', so keeping the sabbath holy just because it was the day God chose is a good reason to do it.
I am already saved through Christ, already justified by Him, and there is no need to try to earn that by doing anything. Yet, we are commanded to do good deeds, to love God, and love neighbor. Because I love God, and owe my very being to Him, I will do the things He has spoken out of my love for Him. I could keep Wednesday holy if I want, but I'll keep Sabbath holy, just because God chose that day, and I love and respect God, and consider His way far above MY way.
Even though I am free to choose whatever day I want, to choose some other day because I want to worship on that day instead of the sabbath is just a tad haughty, IMO.
As to the things the apostles wrote in that letter, 'abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication', doing those things weren't necessary for salvation either, were they? Of course not. So why tell them to do those things? Simply for righteousness' sake. Fornication of course is a sin, a trangression of the law, and thus they should not do it, nor should we.
So what is the deal with circumcision? Circumcizion in the old covenant was a sign of that covenant.
Genesis 17:11 KJV And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
The new covenant has replaced the old covenant. In the new covenant, it is the circumcision of the heart.
Circumcision in the flesh was the shadow of the real thing, circumcision in the heart.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2010, 12:55 PM
Paul taught against observance to the law of Moses for salvation. Paul later went to Jerusalem, where he was accused of teaching against the law, and to show them that he was NOT teaching against the law, took another and had him circumcized.
Paul did not teach against the law, he taught against using it for salvation or justification. Circumcision means nothing in regard to salvation. It does not justify anyone, either Jew or Greek.
Water baptism doesn't justify anyone either, yet Jesus Himself went to John to be baptised. Why?
Matthew 3:15 KJV
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Observing the Sabbath doesn't justify anyone, so why do it? Same reason. We can keep every day holy if we want. But it 'becomes us to fulfil all righteousness', so keeping the sabbath holy just because it was the day God chose is a good reason to do it.
I am already saved through Christ, already justified by Him, and there is no need to try to earn that by doing anything. Yet, we are commanded to do good deeds, to love God, and love neighbor. Because I love God, and owe my very being to Him, I will do the things He has spoken out of my love for Him. I could keep Wednesday holy if I want, but I'll keep Sabbath holy, just because God chose that day, and I love and respect God, and consider His way far above MY way.
Even though I am free to choose whatever day I want, to choose some other day because I want to worship on that day instead of the sabbath is just a tad haughty, IMO.
As to the things the apostles wrote in that letter, 'abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication', doing those things weren't necessary for salvation either, were they? Of course not. So why tell them to do those things? Simply for righteousness' sake. Fornication of course is a sin, a trangression of the law, and thus they should not do it, nor should we.
So what is the deal with circumcision? Circumcizion in the old covenant was a sign of that covenant.
Genesis 17:11 KJV And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
The new covenant has replaced the old covenant. In the new covenant, it is the circumcision of the heart.
Circumcision in the flesh was the shadow of the real thing, circumcision in the heart.

Is it not true that through the law of Moses we will always be found guilty of breaking the whole law by not doing all that is commanded in the law of Moses?

Love does not fulfil the law of Moses.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 16th 2010, 01:58 PM
Is it not true that through the law of Moses we will always be found guilty of breaking the whole law by not doing all that is commanded in the law of Moses?Of course it's true! And every one of us IS guilty. That's why Christ came. That's why it's foolish to try to use the law for salvation and justification. We can't do it. We NEED Christ.

Love does not fulfil the law of Moses.FirstfruitsNot true. Love God, love neighbor. All the law and the prophets hang upon, these two. They are all summed up in these two, thus if you love God and love neighbor, you fulfill the whole law.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 16th 2010, 02:42 PM
Faith that obeys through love..."by faith...Abraham obeyed..."

But it is not the obedience that justifies, it is the faith....and it has always been that way, yes?

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2010, 03:02 PM
Of course it's true! And every one of us IS guilty. That's why Christ came. That's why it's foolish to try to use the law for salvation and justification. We can't do it. We NEED Christ.
Not true. Love God, love neighbor. All the law and the prophets hang upon, these two. They are all summed up in these two, thus if you love God and love neighbor, you fulfill the whole law.

So If we choose not to do one thing in the law but love one another is the law of Moses fulilled?

And did Jesus command the disciples to observe the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 16th 2010, 06:09 PM
So If we choose not to do one thing in the law but love one another is the law of Moses fulilled?:lol:Do you not understand? If you choose not to obey the law, you are not loving. Loving is the fulfillment of the law. If you love one another, then yes, you are fulfilling the law. Love is not simply a mental thing, nor a concept, nor a feeling one has in his heart. It also entails doing. If your brother needs bread, and you have bread, but say 'Go and be blessed. I love you and will pray for you.' and do not give him bread, how have you loved?
You can obey the law without love, but you cannot love without obeying the law.

And did Jesus command the disciples to observe the law of Moses?
FirstfruitsRead Matthew chapter 5 to start. And
Matthew 23:2-3 KJV Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
But, you know something? This whole 'obeying the law' thing is not really something you need to worry yourself over anyway. The law is written in your heart by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, do what is in your heart to do, and you'll be fine, assuming that you have the Holy Spirit (FF I know you do). The fact is, you are already obeying much of the law without even knowing it.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2010, 09:06 PM
:lol:Do you not understand? If you choose not to obey the law, you are not loving. Loving is the fulfillment of the law. If you love one another, then yes, you are fulfilling the law. Love is not simply a mental thing, nor a concept, nor a feeling one has in his heart. It also entails doing. If your brother needs bread, and you have bread, but say 'Go and be blessed. I love you and will pray for you.' and do not give him bread, how have you loved?
You can obey the law without love, but you cannot love without obeying the law.
Read Matthew chapter 5 to start. And
Matthew 23:2-3 KJV Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
But, you know something? This whole 'obeying the law' thing is not really something you need to worry yourself over anyway. The law is written in your heart by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, do what is in your heart to do, and you'll be fine, assuming that you have the Holy Spirit (FF I know you do). The fact is, you are already obeying much of the law without even knowing it.

Christs commandment is that we love one another, how is that compared with keeping the law of Moses?

What is the law that is written in our hearts according to the scriptures?

Are there scriptures where the disciples have commanded us to teach and observe the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 16th 2010, 11:17 PM
Christs commandment is that we love one another, how is that compared with keeping the law of Moses?As I said, to truly keep the law of Moses requires love. One can perform the laws without loving, but in so doing, they are not truly keeping the law.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

What is the law that is written in our hearts according to the scriptures?
What law do you suppose Jeremiah was referring to when he wrote this?
Jeremiah 31:33 KJV But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
What is written in our hearts is God's law.

Are there scriptures where the disciples have commanded us to teach and observe the law of Moses?
FirstfruitsWhat is the law of Moses? Is it not the law that God gave to Moses to write?
Have the disciples commanded us to teach and obesrve the law of Moses/God? Yes. So did Jesus.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Revelation 12:17 KJV And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1 Thessalonians 4:1-9 KJV Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. 9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1 John 2:3-5 KJV And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
The 'law of Moses' can be seen all through the teachings of the apostles. But of course, you cannot see it unless you first have studied and learned what the 'law of Moses' is.
Here is a sample for you. These have been written from a Christian perspective:
Do you know that God exists?
Do you believe that there is no other god beside God?
Do you refrain from accusing God of bad things, or deny Him?
Do you honor God's name, consider His Name Sacred?
Do you refrain from using God's name in contemptable ways?
Do you believe that God is One, a complete Unity?
Do you love God?
Do you fear(respect, revere) God?
Do you refrain from testing God to see if He is worthy and will keep His Word?
Do you try to imitate or follow God's ways?
Do you honor and respect the elderly and wise?
Do you study God's Word, and teach it?
Do you fellowship with those who know God?
Do you refrain from adding to God's Word?
Do you refrain from taking away from God's Word?
Do you have your own Bible?
Are you circumcised in heart?
Do you openly display that you are a Christian?
Do you keep God's commandments in your mind?
Do your hands do the Work of the Kingdom?
Do you consider God's Word as you leave and enter your home?
Do you pray to God?
Do you daily remember God?
Do you thank God for your food?
Do you refrain from worshipping stones?
Do you love the brothers and sisters in Christ?
Do you help when someone is in danger?
Do you refrain from telling tales, speak bad things, about others?
Do you refrain from gossiping?
Do you refrain from holding hatred in your heart toward others?
Do you refrain from taking revenge on others?
Do you refrain from bearing grudges (not forgive)?
Do you refrain from putting your brothers and sisters in Christ to shame?
Do you refrain from speaking or wishing bad things upon others?
Do you refrain from causing others to sin?
Do you help others out of their sinful practices?
Do you help others by doing things for them?
Do you help others by doing things with them?
Do you help others by fixing things for them?
Do you refrain from troubling or harrassing orphans and widows?
Do you give food to the poor?
Do you give to the poor?
Do you refrain from taking back from the poor?
Do you allow the poor to keep what you have given them?
Do you help the poor and give them what they need?
Do you give offerings according to your ability?
Do you show love to strangers?
Do you refrain from wronging a stranger by your words?
Do you refrain from wronging a stranger in buying from them or sellig to them?
Do you refrain from being 'unequally yoked'?
Do you require strangers to pay back what they owe you?
Do you charge interest to strangers when you loan to them?
Do you show honor to your mother and father?
Do you refrain from hitting your parents?
Do you refrain from cursing your parents?
Do you give respect to your parents?
(If you are married), have you multiplied?
Is it wrong for a eunich to marry a Christian woman?
Is it wrong for one born of incest to marry a Christian?
Is it okay for Arabs to be Christian?
Is it okay for an Egyptian to be a Christian?
Do you refrain from adultery?
Do you uphold the sanctity of marriage?
(If a man) Do you refrain from military service for one year after marriage? (probably not...;))
(If a man) Do you refrain from public service for one year after marriage?(probably not...:P
(If a man) Do you refrain from withholding food, clothing or conjugal rights from your wife?
(If you divorce) Would you formally (by a judge) divorce?
Would you refrain from remarrying a wife that you divorced if she had been married to another after the divorce?
(If you are a woman)If your husband dies childless, would you marry his (unmarried) brother?(probably not in this society)
(If you are a man)If you are unmarried, would you marry your dead and childless brother's wife?(probably not in this culture, though it's not unheard of)
(If you are a woman)Would you formally release your dead and childless husband's (unmarried) brother from marrying you if he refuses?(not in this culture)
Do you refrain from indulging familiarities with relatives, such as kissing, embracing, winking, or other activities that may lead to incest?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your mother?
(If a woman)Do you refrain from incest with your father?
(If a man) Do you refrain from incest with your father's wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your sister?
(If a man) Do you refrain from incest with you father's wife's daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your granddaughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your father's sister?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your mother's sister?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your father's brother's wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your father's brother?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your son's wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your brother's wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your wife's daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your wife's sons' daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your wife's daughter's daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your wife's sister?
(If a man)Do you refrain from sexual relations during menstruation?
(If a man)Do you refrain from sexual relations with another mans' wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from sodomy with a male?
(If a man)Do you refrain from sodomy with an animal?
(If a woman)Do you refrain from sodomy with an animal?
This is roughly 100 of the 613 laws. As you can see, most of these we DO see in the New Testament, and most of them we DO obey already.
If I provided the list of laws pertaining to the priesthood, you would see that many of them we already obey as well. I did a very lengthy study on that, and I can say without hesitation that nearly every command given for the priesthood, there is a new covenant counterpart.
Again, the old covenant was natural, the new spiritual.
If one undertakes honest study of the law in both testaments, instead of simply parroting the misconceptions of what he has been taught (which is so much easier), his eyes will be opened to a great many things.
The problem is, when many 'study', they do so with 'colored glasses', that is, they view it through the teachings of their various denominations, picking out what fits their particular belief and glossing over the rest, instead of just studying what the Word actually says. This is done regardless of the topic. Law, endtimes, baptisms, you name it.

losthorizon
Apr 16th 2010, 11:28 PM
But it is not the obedience that justifies, it is the faith....and it has always been that way, yes?
But can faith be separated from obedience? There are many kinds of 'faith' my friend - 'weak faith', 'strong faith', 'obedient faith', 'loving faith', etc. The faith that justifies is a strong faith that obeys the commandments of God via love...
"For this is the love of God, that we keep [obey] his commandments." ~ 1 John 5:2

losthorizon
Apr 16th 2010, 11:49 PM
Yes, the law of Moses, which he got directly from God, and therefore God's law, was a law based upon works, as I said in my post that you didn't read. And the law of Christ, who also is God, and therefore God's law, is a law based on the principles of faith, which I also said in my post that you didn't read.

But I did read all of your posts my friend – you misrepresent me. The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ are both from God. The Law of Moses was given exclusively to the Hebrew nation at Sinai. It was not applicable to any people before that time - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not ‘keep’ the Law of Moses. It is not applicable to Christians today. Christians have the Law of Christ based on faith and love not "works of the law" found under the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses was fulfilled by the Christ and nailed to His cross. Christians were never bound by the Law of Moses – Christians live and die under the Law of Christ as presented in the New Testament. The Mosaic system in its entirety has been annulled. We are warned not to go back under the shadows of Judaism – the “yoke of bondage” if you will. We are told to stand fast in the "liberty with which Christ has made us free" from the law of works. Jesus has abolished in his flesh the Mosaic law "contained in ordinances". In the body of Christ today there is neither Jew nor Greek - we are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace!

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which works by love. AKJV

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace; AKJV

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; AKJV

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. AKJV

losthorizon
Apr 16th 2010, 11:59 PM
As I said, to truly keep the law of Moses requires love.


But why would I as a Christian want to 'keep' the Law of Moses? It was never given to Christians - why go back under the yoke of bondage - the "old" was removed so that the "new" could bring forth fruit.


What is the law of Moses?

The law given to the Hebrew nation alone - it was never binding on anyone else. It ended when the Mosaic system ended forever in the first century when the New Testament was ratified by the blood of Christ. To teach Christians today that they live under the Law of Moses is an error.

Kahtar
Apr 17th 2010, 12:23 AM
But I did read all of your posts my friend – you misrepresent me.Okay. Perhaps you were just reiterating what I said in those posts.

The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ are both from God.Agreed.

The Law of Moses was given exclusively to the Hebrew nation at Sinai. It was not applicable to any people before that time - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not ‘keep’ the Law of Moses.Agreed, although they did do many of the things contained in the covenant of Moses.

It is not applicable to Christians today.Out the list I provided in post#65, which ones are not applicable to Christians today?

Christians have the Law of Christ based on faith and love not "works of the law" found under the Law of Moses.Absolutely agree. As I said, the old covenant (aka covenant of Moses, law of Moses) was natural, the new is spiritual. The old covenant was the shadow of the new, and thus looks very much like the new. The difference is as you say, faith and love (spiritual) rather than 'works' (natural).
The Law of Moses was fulfilled by the Christ[/quote]Yes

and nailed to His cross.No. The handwriting of ordinances that was against us was nailed to the cross. That was the record of our sin, which the cross of Christ took away.

Christians were never bound by the Law of Moses –Agreed.

Christians live and die under the Law of Christ as presented in the New Testament.Agreed

The Mosaic system in its entirety has been annulled.Agreed. The shadow has been replaced with the real deal.

We are warned not to go back under the shadows of Judaism – the “yoke of bondage” if you will.Agreed

We are told to stand fast in the "liberty with which Christ has made us free" from the law of works.Agreed

Jesus has abolished in his flesh the Mosaic law "contained in ordinances".I don't agree.
Read in context, that which is 'contained in ordinances' is not speaking about God's law, or the old covenant, but rather those ordinances found within the oral traditions of the Jews which prevented Jew and Gentile from being together.
Ephesians 2:8-22 KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


In the body of Christ today there is neither Jew nor Greek - we are all one in Christ Jesus. Agreed


Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.Agreed

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace!Agreed. But the fact that you put this one in here suggests that you think that is what I am doing. If that is what you think, go back and reread what I actually said.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which works by love. AKJV

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace; AKJVAgreed, but addressed above.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; AKJVAgreed. Addressed above.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. AKJVAgreed
So we actually agree on most of these points.:)

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 01:06 AM
Out the list I provided in post#65, which ones are not applicable to Christians today?


Christians are not required to “keep” the Law of Moses at all. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not about "keeping the Law of Moses"– only the Jews were required to keep that law.


So we actually agree on most of these points.
Most. :)

What about the 4th commandment? Is the faith of Christ about “day-keeping”?

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 01:21 AM
Christians are not required to “keep” the Law of Moses at all.That's true for Israel and Gentile -all in Christ.

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 01:39 AM
That's true for Israel and Gentile -all in Christ.
Agreed - all who are "in Christ" are the Israel of God today. The Israel of God (Jew and Gentile) is not under the Mosaic economy that ended at the cross.
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6:15-16 ESV)

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 02:47 AM
Yes, but what does 'ended at the cross' mean? Jesus said the law prophesied UNTIL John (since then -believe the gospel -time is fulfilled) and He told John He had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. We see Jesus not imputing sin and we see Him not condemning a woman (adultery) that under the law had to be stoned. He still called it sin. Jesus is grace for grace. He was anointed to preach the gospel -believe. He was anointed above all His fellows because He loved righteousness and hated iniquity, therefore.....because of that, He was given all authority and power -before the cross. A voice from heaven, this is my beloved Son, all hear (ye) Him! In Him dwells the fullness of the God head -bodily. So when He was nailed to His cross, the law fulfilled was nailed to His cross. Christ is the end of the law concerning righteousness. It is finished, but was there really any doubt at His baptism? Prophecies concerning Him say He would not fail. Hebrews says the law is ready to vanish away, but it doesn't mean the law is still active because God wants it active. Man chooses to put himself under the law and keeps it active, contrary to Christ's life, baptism, ministry, and crucifixion.

I know I am getting technical, but yes we agree in a foundational sense.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 17th 2010, 02:58 AM
But can faith be separated from obedience?
So when I stumble and fail to obey the law, even though I have still faith in Jesus Christ and love God leading up to the stumble, and seemingly through the stumble, and certainly after the stumble, am I justified at the moment of the stumble?

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 03:08 AM
But can faith be separated from obedience? There are many kinds of 'faith' my friend - 'weak faith', 'strong faith', 'obedient faith', 'loving faith', etc.You answered your own question here. They are not separated, they are confirmed, depending of the state of faith. A babe in the faith is not expected by God to obey as one strong in the faith.


The faith that justifies is a strong faith that obeys the commandments of God via love...
"For this is the love of God, that we keep [obey] his commandments." ~ 1 John 5:2So a babe in Christ that cannot hold to strong faith is damned?

If you cannot extend grace toward your brother as God does, what do you have?

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2010, 12:20 PM
As I said, to truly keep the law of Moses requires love. One can perform the laws without loving, but in so doing, they are not truly keeping the law.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

What law do you suppose Jeremiah was referring to when he wrote this?
Jeremiah 31:33 KJV But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
What is written in our hearts is God's law.
What is the law of Moses? Is it not the law that God gave to Moses to write?
Have the disciples commanded us to teach and obesrve the law of Moses/God? Yes. So did Jesus.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Revelation 12:17 KJV And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1 Thessalonians 4:1-9 KJV Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. 9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1 John 2:3-5 KJV And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
The 'law of Moses' can be seen all through the teachings of the apostles. But of course, you cannot see it unless you first have studied and learned what the 'law of Moses' is.
Here is a sample for you. These have been written from a Christian perspective:
Do you know that God exists?
Do you believe that there is no other god beside God?
Do you refrain from accusing God of bad things, or deny Him?
Do you honor God's name, consider His Name Sacred?
Do you refrain from using God's name in contemptable ways?
Do you believe that God is One, a complete Unity?
Do you love God?
Do you fear(respect, revere) God?
Do you refrain from testing God to see if He is worthy and will keep His Word?
Do you try to imitate or follow God's ways?
Do you honor and respect the elderly and wise?
Do you study God's Word, and teach it?
Do you fellowship with those who know God?
Do you refrain from adding to God's Word?
Do you refrain from taking away from God's Word?
Do you have your own Bible?
Are you circumcised in heart?
Do you openly display that you are a Christian?
Do you keep God's commandments in your mind?
Do your hands do the Work of the Kingdom?
Do you consider God's Word as you leave and enter your home?
Do you pray to God?
Do you daily remember God?
Do you thank God for your food?
Do you refrain from worshipping stones?
Do you love the brothers and sisters in Christ?
Do you help when someone is in danger?
Do you refrain from telling tales, speak bad things, about others?
Do you refrain from gossiping?
Do you refrain from holding hatred in your heart toward others?
Do you refrain from taking revenge on others?
Do you refrain from bearing grudges (not forgive)?
Do you refrain from putting your brothers and sisters in Christ to shame?
Do you refrain from speaking or wishing bad things upon others?
Do you refrain from causing others to sin?
Do you help others out of their sinful practices?
Do you help others by doing things for them?
Do you help others by doing things with them?
Do you help others by fixing things for them?
Do you refrain from troubling or harrassing orphans and widows?
Do you give food to the poor?
Do you give to the poor?
Do you refrain from taking back from the poor?
Do you allow the poor to keep what you have given them?
Do you help the poor and give them what they need?
Do you give offerings according to your ability?
Do you show love to strangers?
Do you refrain from wronging a stranger by your words?
Do you refrain from wronging a stranger in buying from them or sellig to them?
Do you refrain from being 'unequally yoked'?
Do you require strangers to pay back what they owe you?
Do you charge interest to strangers when you loan to them?
Do you show honor to your mother and father?
Do you refrain from hitting your parents?
Do you refrain from cursing your parents?
Do you give respect to your parents?
(If you are married), have you multiplied?
Is it wrong for a eunich to marry a Christian woman?
Is it wrong for one born of incest to marry a Christian?
Is it okay for Arabs to be Christian?
Is it okay for an Egyptian to be a Christian?
Do you refrain from adultery?
Do you uphold the sanctity of marriage?
(If a man) Do you refrain from military service for one year after marriage? (probably not...;))
(If a man) Do you refrain from public service for one year after marriage?(probably not...:P
(If a man) Do you refrain from withholding food, clothing or conjugal rights from your wife?
(If you divorce) Would you formally (by a judge) divorce?
Would you refrain from remarrying a wife that you divorced if she had been married to another after the divorce?
(If you are a woman)If your husband dies childless, would you marry his (unmarried) brother?(probably not in this society)
(If you are a man)If you are unmarried, would you marry your dead and childless brother's wife?(probably not in this culture, though it's not unheard of)
(If you are a woman)Would you formally release your dead and childless husband's (unmarried) brother from marrying you if he refuses?(not in this culture)
Do you refrain from indulging familiarities with relatives, such as kissing, embracing, winking, or other activities that may lead to incest?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your mother?
(If a woman)Do you refrain from incest with your father?
(If a man) Do you refrain from incest with your father's wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your sister?
(If a man) Do you refrain from incest with you father's wife's daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your granddaughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your father's sister?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your mother's sister?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your father's brother's wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your father's brother?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your son's wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your brother's wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your wife's daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your wife's sons' daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your wife's daughter's daughter?
(If a man)Do you refrain from incest with your wife's sister?
(If a man)Do you refrain from sexual relations during menstruation?
(If a man)Do you refrain from sexual relations with another mans' wife?
(If a man)Do you refrain from sodomy with a male?
(If a man)Do you refrain from sodomy with an animal?
(If a woman)Do you refrain from sodomy with an animal?
This is roughly 100 of the 613 laws. As you can see, most of these we DO see in the New Testament, and most of them we DO obey already.
If I provided the list of laws pertaining to the priesthood, you would see that many of them we already obey as well. I did a very lengthy study on that, and I can say without hesitation that nearly every command given for the priesthood, there is a new covenant counterpart.
Again, the old covenant was natural, the new spiritual.
If one undertakes honest study of the law in both testaments, instead of simply parroting the misconceptions of what he has been taught (which is so much easier), his eyes will be opened to a great many things.
The problem is, when many 'study', they do so with 'colored glasses', that is, they view it through the teachings of their various denominations, picking out what fits their particular belief and glossing over the rest, instead of just studying what the Word actually says. This is done regardless of the topic. Law, endtimes, baptisms, you name it.

Thanks Kahtar,

Would you say that the following scriptures are referring to the same thing to be taught?

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Acts 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles And elders And brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch And Syria And Cilicia.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Acts 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Knowing that Jesus first command was before the plan of salvation was complete and the second was after it was fulfilled, would that be why the disciples would not command it to be observed?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 12:52 PM
So a babe in Christ that cannot hold to strong faith is damned?


You misunderstand – it takes ‘strong faith’ from the get-go to continue down “the path” of maturity as a “babe in Christ” – those who only have “weak faith” hear the word of God but as they go on their way they become "choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life" having no root in the faith - they believe for a while but in "time of testing" they fall away.
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience. ~ Jesus Christ

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2010, 12:58 PM
Faith and the law:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Were the disciples being disobedient to Christs commands by teaching against observing the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 01:00 PM
So when I stumble and fail to obey the law, even though I have still faith in Jesus Christ and love God leading up to the stumble, and seemingly through the stumble, and certainly after the stumble, am I justified at the moment of the stumble?


I will let John answer your question...
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1Jn 1:7-9 ESV)

Kahtar
Apr 17th 2010, 01:02 PM
Christians are not required to “keep” the Law of Moses at all. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not about "keeping the Law of Moses"– only the Jews were required to keep that law.That of course does not answer the question. But you are correct. The 'law of Moses' is the shadow. Now we keep the real thing, the law of Christ. But one being the shadow of the other makes them both very much alike. Of course when you're trying to argue against Moses' law, it's very difficult to admit that, thus the complete avoidance of the question. .;)

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 01:10 PM
Yes, but what does 'ended at the cross' mean? Jesus said the law prophesied UNTIL John (since then -believe the gospel -time is fulfilled) and He told John He had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. We see Jesus not imputing sin and we see Him not condemning a woman (adultery) that under the law had to be stoned. He still called it sin. Jesus is grace for grace. He was anointed to preach the gospel -believe. He was anointed above all His fellows because He loved righteousness and hated iniquity, therefore.....because of that, He was given all authority and power -before the cross. A voice from heaven, this is my beloved Son, all hear (ye) Him! In Him dwells the fullness of the God head -bodily. So when He was nailed to His cross, the law fulfilled was nailed to His cross. Christ is the end of the law concerning righteousness. It is finished, but was there really any doubt at His baptism? Prophecies concerning Him say He would not fail. Hebrews says the law is ready to vanish away, but it doesn't mean the law is still active because God wants it active. Man chooses to put himself under the law and keeps it active, contrary to Christ's life, baptism, ministry, and crucifixion.

I know I am getting technical, but yes we agree in a foundational sense.
I think the crux of the matter is to understand the point of demarcation between the “old” and the “new” took place with the ratification of the New Covenant by the blood of Christ.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2010, 01:11 PM
That of course does not answer the question. But you are correct. The 'law of Moses' is the shadow. Now we keep the real thing, the law of Christ. But one being the shadow of the other makes them both very much alike. Of course when you're trying to argue against Moses' law, it's very difficult to admit that, thus the complete avoidance of the question. .;)

The difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ is justification.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Yet by doing the works of the law of liberty there is justifacation, they are not the same.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 01:21 PM
That of course does not answer the question. But you are correct. The 'law of Moses' is the shadow. Now we keep the real thing, the law of Christ. But one being the shadow of the other makes them both very much alike. Of course when you're trying to argue against Moses' law, it's very difficult to admit that, thus the complete avoidance of the question. .;)
You misrepresent me once again – I have no difficulty stating that nine of the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God in the Decalogue have been refined and reiterated in the gospel of Christ – nothing hard about that at all. What question do you perceive that I am avoiding - I will be more than happy to answer (to the best of my ability) any question you may have.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2010, 01:37 PM
Different Ministrations

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2 Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2 Cor 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2 Cor 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2 Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

We are ministers of the new testament, not the old.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 17th 2010, 01:51 PM
The difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ is justification.
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Yet by doing the works of the law of liberty there is justifacation, they are not the same.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
FirstfruitsExactly. I agree.

Kahtar
Apr 17th 2010, 01:54 PM
You misrepresent me once again – I have no difficulty stating that nine of the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God in the Decalogue have been refined and reiterated in the gospel of Christ – nothing hard about that at all. What question do you perceive that I am avoiding - I will be more than happy to answer (to the best of my ability) any question you may have.My appologies again.
Here is the question I asked:

Out the list I provided in post#65, which ones are not applicable to Christians today?
As to the question you asked about the sabbath, you will find that I already addressed that in post#58

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2010, 02:19 PM
Exactly. I agree.

Thank you Kahtar,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 02:36 PM
My appologies again.
Here is the question I asked:

As to the question you asked about the sabbath, you will find that I already addressed that in post#58
Your post #65 is long, ambiguous and some points rather odd (e.g., "is it wrong for a eunich [sic] to marry a Christian woman?") – You would need to explain/define many of your points before I could agree/disagree and much of the list appears to be moot in relation to the topic at hand (e.g., "(If a woman) Do you refrain from sodomy with an animal?"). If you have a specific question about a specific point then present it.

Regarding your post #58 and the Sabbath requirement you will need to clarify your statement. The Jews under the Law of Moses were to “keep” the Sabbath as a matter of law. Do you keep the Sabbath as a matter of law and does your theology require Christians to “keep the Sabbath”? If not, why not?

Kahtar
Apr 17th 2010, 02:51 PM
Your post #65 is long, ambiguous and some points rather odd (e.g., "is it wrong for a eunich [sic] to marry a Christian woman?") – You would need to explain/define many of your points before I could agree/disagree and much of the list appears to be moot in relation to the topic at hand (e.g., "(If a woman) Do you refrain from sodomy with an animal?"). If you have a specific question about a specific point then present it. Sheesh. If you don't want to answer just say so. Was it not clear to you that those things I listed were from the law of Moses? In a Christian perspective? How do you see the law of Moses as being ambiguous, moot in relation to the topic at hand, which is the law of Moses?
Regarding your post #58 and the Sabbath requirement you will need to clarify your statement. The Jews under the Law of Moses were to “keep” the Sabbath as a matter of law. Do you keep the Sabbath as a matter of law and does your theology require Christians to “keep the Sabbath”? If not, why not?[/QUOTE]Why do you ask such questions when you say you have read my posts? 'Do I keep Sabbath as a mterr of law'. If you are not going to read, or ignore, what I write there is no point trying to discuss anything with you. Had you read what I have written in this thread, you would realize that these questions have already been addressed and bringing it up again is pointless. So, if you want the answers to these questions, since they are already posted, go find them. they are there.
If you would like to have an intelligent discussion, let me know.

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 04:08 PM
I think the crux of the matter is to understand the point of demarcation between the “old” and the “new” took place with the ratification of the New Covenant by the blood of Christ.Yes, as far as covenants are concerned, but I was talking about how God dealt with man.
Is there some reason the old had to be active until the new was activated?
Without a covenant God was not imputing mans sin before the "old"
the "old" covenant, added because of transgression, came after the promises which are of the first which is the "new"
He did not condemn and stone the adulterous woman. If the "old" was "active" He broke it, but we know He did not break it, so the old could not have been "active".
Grace and faith has always superseded the law and God has always been the God of both Jew and Gentile.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2010, 05:05 PM
With regards to the following scriptures, if the disciples did not teach observance to the law of Moses, and that is their doctrine, are we abiding in the disciples doctrine if we do?

Acts 15:23-2923 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Is the disciples doctrine contrary to Christs doctrine/teaching?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 07:33 PM
Sheesh. If you don't want to answer just say so. Was it not clear to you that those things I listed were from the law of Moses?

Kahtar - I am not trying to be difficult - I have only presented the truth - Christians are not under the Law of Moses. We live and die under the Law of Christ. I am not sure what other answer you require of me. I have stated already that if you have a specific question related to your long list of points I will be happy to respond. I'll leave that ball in your court.


Why do you ask such questions when you say you have read my posts? 'Do I keep Sabbath as a mterr of law'.

I ask because you appear to be promoting the notion that the Law of Moses is somehow binding in some residual way on Christians today (it is not). If we are to "keep" the Mosaic law as it was kept by the Jews before it was annulled by Christ then we must keep the 4th commandment as a matter of law - it would not be an option. If you as a Christian choose to keep the Sabbath as permitted by the freedom we have "in Christ" then you certainly can do that but it not part of the gospel of Christ. Do you live in a cold part of the county and do you permit your household to "light a fire" on a cold winter Sabbath?
“You shall not light a fire in any of your homes on the sabbath day” (Ex. 35:3)

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 07:41 PM
Is there some reason the old had to be active until the new was activated?


I think so - the old was our "schoolmaster" that pointed us to the Christ so that we could be justified by faith in His saving blood...
Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith ~ Paul

Kahtar
Apr 17th 2010, 07:43 PM
Kahtar - I am not trying to be difficult - I have only presented the truth - Christians are not under the Law of Moses. We live and die under the Law of Christ. I am not sure what other answer you require of me. I have stated already that if you have a specific question related to your long list of points I will be happy to respond. I'll leave that ball in your court.
I ask because you appear to be promoting the notion that the Law of Moses is somehow binding in some residual way on Christians today (it is not). If we are to "keep" the Mosaic law as it was kept by the Jews before it was annulled by Christ then we must keep the 4th commandment as a matter of law - it would not be an option. If you as a Christian choose to keep the Sabbath as permitted by the freedom we have "in Christ" then you certainly can do that but it not part of the gospel of Christ. Do you live in a cold part of the county and do you permit your household to "light a fire" on a cold winter Sabbath?

“You shall not light a fire in any of your homes on the sabbath day” (Ex. 35:3)
But if you took the time to read and understand what I have been saying all through this thread, there would be no need to bring this up, because I have already addressed it, and am not going to retype it. Thus, if you want it answered, simply go back and read what I have already written. Okay? It's there, it really is.:P
Just start with post#33 and continue from there.

losthorizon
Apr 17th 2010, 07:52 PM
But if you took the time to read and understand what I have been saying all through this thread, there would be no need to bring this up, because I have already addressed it, and am not going to retype it. Thus, if you want it answered, simply go back and read what I have already written. Okay? It's there, it really is.:P
I have read your thinking on the Sabbath/Law of Moses on this thread and other threads and your position remains ambiguous (IMO). If you do not wish to clarify your position I can live with your choice and I do understand your dilemma. ;)

Kahtar
Apr 17th 2010, 08:15 PM
I have read your thinking on the Sabbath/Law of Moses on this thread and other threads and your position remains ambiguous (IMO). If you do not wish to clarify your position I can live with your choice and I do understand your dilemma. ;)
Okay, well I guess I can live your need to consider it ambiguous and a dilemma, too.;)
Guess I'll be done with this thread. No point asking or answering the same set of questions 14 times.

inn
Apr 17th 2010, 09:05 PM
Some questions asked in here I feel can be taken a little further, Re. New and Old covenant, and what was the difference tween Jesus' commands and the law. As I've said in this forum;"EVERYTHING in the New Covenant is WAY superior to the Old Covenant!" I am in agreement with the major part of what most of you are saying.

What was the difference 'tween Jesus' commandments and the law?
Jesus commands are way deeper, revelational, realistic, bright, salty, spiritual (with less emphasis on the outward, and more about our hearts and what goes on inside us). It would be nice to lengthen this list if anyone has ideas, please post them.

Jesus took the ENTIRE law a million light years further(for a lack a lack of a better expression) , everything in the law; but I will just touch on a few, fasting, prayer, attitude, lust, marriage,the sabath etc. and my next point which is HUGELY overlooked in the church today due to a large part of the church being politicized, the way we treat our enemies.

God bless you all, and keep up the love posts

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 11:26 PM
I think so - the old was our "schoolmaster" that pointed us to the Christ so that we could be justified by faith in His saving blood...
Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith ~ PaulThat would be difficult seeing Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law.

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 12:02 AM
That would be difficult seeing Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law.
You misunderstand - the “schoolmaster/tutor” concept presented by Paul as it relates to the "old" pointing to the "new" is applicable to all the spiritual seed of Abraham, i.e., Jew and Gentile. Questions for you – (1) Does “all scripture” mention by Paul below include the Old Testament scriptures? (2) Is Paul applying this passage to both Jew and Gentile? (3) Can Gentiles see Jesus Christ by studying the Old Testament (the tutor/schoolmaster)? (4) Must one be "under the Mosaic law" to study the Old Testament scriptures?
2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (KJV).

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 18th 2010, 12:49 AM
I will let John answer your question...
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1Jn 1:7-9 ESV)
What if I sin, and before I have a chance to confess and ask forgivness I am run over by a bus...do I go to hell?

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 12:57 AM
What if I sin, and before I have a chance to confess and ask forgivness I am run over by a bus...do I go to hell?


What kind of bus?

Kahtar
Apr 18th 2010, 01:01 AM
I have read your thinking on the Sabbath/Law of Moses on this thread and other threads and your position remains ambiguous (IMO). If you do not wish to clarify your position I can live with your choice and I do understand your dilemma. ;)
Well, okay. Perhaps it's just my pride, but I'm having difficulty letting this statement stand. So I'll concede and give you your answer.:)
On the 4th commandment regarding the sabbath:
This law, like all the law, was and remains a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ. This law, like all the law, is a shadow of the real thing. That real thing that I am speaking of is the spiritual law, or what you would refer to as 'the law of Christ'.
This law, like all the law, is fulfilled in the natural only. The spiritual law is fulfilled in the spirit, and is demonstrated outwardly.
Therefore, as Paul taught, Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.
If you want to keep Sunday holy, then keep Sunday holy.
The spiritual purpose behind the sabbath is to take a day to honor God, meditate upon Him and His Word, and physically to take one day a week to physically rest. We NEED that rest, and spiritually we NEED to keep a day unto the Lord. Does it have to be Saturday? No.
Those of you who keep Sunday holy, why do you do it? Because you have to? To earn righteousness? To make a show to others how holy and spiritual you are? Or do you do it because you love God and honor Him, and choose to show Him that love and honor on that day?
If you do it because you love and honor God, would it show greater honor to Him to do it on the day HE chose instead of the day WE choose? Just asking. No need to answer me.
Is that clear enough? Or do you require more explanation?

As to this imagined 'dilemma' you spoke of, that's all it is, imagined. I have no dilemma.

As for the suggestion that I am saying Christians are bound to the law, as I have QUITE CLEARLY stated numerous times in the past, I have never said, at any time or in any place on this board or anywhere else, than any Christian is bound to obey the law. I have clearly stated numerous times that salvation is ONLY by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, that we cannot earn salvation, or righteousness, or justification, by obeying the law. So will you PLEASE stop accusing me of such and misrepresenting me?

Now, back to my question to you......my purpose in asking you was not to 'trap' you, but rather to point out the fact that the laws of Moses which we are able to keep are things that for the most part we as Christians normally do anyway, and the reason we do them is because that law has been written upon our hearts. The Holy Spirit has given us the desire to do those things. Those things are an outward demonstration of the inward love that is in our hearts, either for God or for our neighbor.
There are laws that pertained only to the judiciary of Israel. These are the shadow of the real thing. Christ now is our judge, and those things are in His court, not ours. There are things that pertained only to the High Priest. They were the shadow of the real thing. Our High Priest is Christ, so those things are in His court.
There are laws that pertained to the various sacrifices. They are the shadow of the real thing. Christ is the True Sacrifice, that which all the shadows pointed to, and it is He Who fulfills those.
There are laws that pertained only to the priests and Levites. They are the shadow. We now are a spiritual kingdom of priests, and we now fulfill those things spiritually.
And then there are the infamous dietary laws. Those had much more to do with plain sense than anything. The 'unclean' creatures they were commanded to not eat are still unclean today. Ask any nutritionist. They are simply not healthy for us to eat. Can we eat them? We certainly can and do. Do they harm our bodies? they certainly do. Do they taste good? They certainly do.:D
We are not 'bound' to the law, we can do nothing to earn salvation or justification. Not even the 'law of Christ', which is nothing more than a summation of the entire law. But we CAN, and in fact are instructed by Christ Himself and all the apostles to, obey the law. By so doing, we demononstrate our love for God, and our love for our neighbor. We ARE instructed to 'be holy, for I am holy'. How does one do that? By obedience to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lustsin your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.



What kind of bus..........:lol:

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 18th 2010, 01:15 AM
What kind of bus?

...AirBus A380?

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 02:07 AM
You misunderstand - the “schoolmaster/tutor” concept presented by Paul as it relates to the "old" pointing to the "new" is applicable to all the spiritual seed of Abraham, i.e., Jew and Gentile.No you misunderstand. I just about need to post the entire chapter.


Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
If a Gentile is not under the law before or after Christ, when do you suggest they were/are? The schoolmaster here is not talking about learning Christ through types and shadows. It is the law before faith, but now that faith has come we are not under the law.


Questions for you – (1) Does “all scripture” mention by Paul below include the Old Testament scriptures?

2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (KJV).
Yes. What does it have to do with the discussion of Gal 3?


(2) Is Paul applying this passage to both Jew and Gentile?Yes. What does it have to do with the discussion of Gal 3?


(3) Can Gentiles see Jesus Christ by studying the Old Testament (the tutor/schoolmaster)?Yes. What does it have to do with the discussion of Gal 3?


(4) Must one be "under the Mosaic law" to study the Old Testament scriptures?No. For instance when Paul said in Romans 7 'I speak to them that know the law' he was talking to Jew and Gentile.
What does it have to do with the discussion of Gal 3?

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 02:32 AM
Well, okay. Perhaps it's just my pride, but I'm having difficulty letting this statement stand. So I'll concede and give you your answer.:)


I appreciate the clarification.


Those of you who keep Sunday holy, why do you do it?

I don’t “keep Sunday” – there is no such animal as a “Christian Sabbath”. I do however assemble with the saints on the Lord’s Day – the day Jesus arose from the tomb. I assemble just as those of the apostolic era did - to celebrate the Lord’s resurrection – “This do in remembrance of me…”
“But Sunday is the day which we all hold our common assembly, because Jesus Christ, our Saviour, on the same day rose from the dead.” ~ Justin Martyr, Apology
As to this imagined 'dilemma' you spoke of, that's all it is, imagined. I have no dilemma.
The dilemma applies to those who insist that Christians are still bound in some sense to the Law of Moses – the law that requires “Sabbath-keeping”. The Christian faith is not about day-keeping or keeping the law of Moses.


As for the suggestion that I am saying Christians are bound to the law, as I have QUITE CLEARLY stated numerous times in the past, I have never said, at any time or in any place on this board or anywhere else, than any Christian is bound to obey the law. I have clearly stated numerous times that salvation is ONLY by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, that we cannot earn salvation, or righteousness, or justification, by obeying the law. So will you PLEASE stop accusing me of such and misrepresenting me?
I have never accused you of anything my friend – I only asked that you clarify your position and it appears you are still confused. You do not understand the truth taught in the NT that the Mosaic system ended at the cross.


Now, back to my question to you......my purpose in asking you was not to 'trap' you, but rather to point out the fact that the laws of Moses which we are able to keep are things that for the most part we as Christians normally do anyway, and the reason we do them is because that law has been written upon our hearts.

As stated - you continue to misunderstand – the Law of Moses has ended – it has become forever obsolete along with the entire Mosaic system, i.e., animal sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, etc. We live under the Law of Christ.

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 02:34 AM
...AirBus A380?
Aw yes - AirBus - in that case you're safe - if you walk in the light...

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 02:40 AM
It is the law before faith, but now that faith has come we are not under the law.


Are you saying the Jews under the Law of Moses did not have faith? Did Moses have faith? What about Abraham - did he not have faith?
"...by faith...Abraham obeyed..."

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 03:06 AM
everyone has faith. Yes they had faith in God.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith [of Jesus Christ] came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith [of Jesus Christ] which should afterwards be revealed.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Kahtar
Apr 18th 2010, 03:07 AM
I have never accused you of anything my friend – I only asked that you clarify your position and it appears you are still confused. You do not understand the truth taught in the NT that the Mosaic system ended at the cross.It appears that YOU are still confused. I never said the Mosaic system didn't end. Don't put words in my mouth. The fact is, I said in an earlier post that it DID come to an end, and that the new covenant has replaced it. In the 40+ years I've been a Christian, I have NEVER been confused on that issue. Please stop accusing me of that.

As stated - you continue to misunderstand – the Law of Moses has ended – it has become forever obsolete along with the entire Mosaic system, i.e., animal sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, etc. We live under the Law of Christ.No I don't continue to misunderstand. I am not saying what you think I am saying.
I, like you, am saying we live under the new covenant and the 'law of Christ'. But I am saying that 'love God and love neighbor' looks the same regardless which covenant it is in. And it's in both. And in both cases, it sums up the entire law.
How many times do I have to say it? If I say a thing is white, why do you keep saying I'm calling it black?
If you simply are not understanding me, try reading it again. (I know you won't tho of course).

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2010, 10:22 AM
Are you saying the Jews under the Law of Moses did not have faith? Did Moses have faith? What about Abraham - did he not have faith?
"...by faith...Abraham obeyed..."

It is written that the just shall live by faith, but the law is not of faith so no matter how much we keep that which is in the law we can never be justified.

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

If we love one another according to the law of Moses we cannot be justified, if we love one another according to the law of Christ we are justified and blessed.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 01:06 PM
It appears that YOU are still confused. I never said the Mosaic system didn't end. Don't put words in my mouth.

<snip>

No I don't continue to misunderstand. I am not saying what you think I am saying.

<snip>

If you simply are not understanding me, try reading it again. (I know you won't tho of course).
Well Kahtar - you say above that you never said the Mosaic system didn't end but in your post #65 you said...

Kahtar
What is the law of Moses? Is it not the law that God gave to Moses to write?
Have the disciples commanded us to teach and obesrve the law of Moses/God? Yes. So did Jesus. So which is it - are Christians under the Mosaic system or are we under the gospel of Christ. The Law of Moses was given only to the Hebrew nation at Sinai. That law was never given to the Patriarchs and it was never given to Christians. Do you teach Christians today observe the Law of Moses? Does the Law of Moses contain the 4th commandment. The 4th commandment was not an option for the Jews under the Mosaic system - it was a matter of law. Does the Law of Christ contain the compulsory command to "keep the Sabbath"? Maybe you can clarify your position.

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 01:15 PM
It is written that the just shall live by faith, but the law is not of faith so no matter how much we keep that which is in the law we can never be justified.

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

If we love one another according to the law of Moses we cannot be justified, if we love one another according to the law of Christ we are justified and blessed.

Firstfruits
I don't think anyone on this thread believes anyone is justified by the Law of Moses but Jews under that system loved one another and Jews under that system had faith.

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2010, 01:29 PM
I don't think anyone on this thread believes anyone is justified by the Law of Moses but Jews under that system loved one another and Jews under that system had faith.

We do not love one another because of the law, we love one another because of Christ.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Before Christ there was justification through the law, as long as the whole law was observed. Now in Christ that is no longer the case.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 02:24 PM
We do not love one another because of the law, we love one another because of Christ.


Are you saying before Jesus came into the world the Jews did not love one another? Are you saying love and kindness have not been a part of Judaism from the very beginning?

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2010, 03:24 PM
Are you saying before Jesus came into the world the Jews did not love one another? Are you saying love and kindness have not been a part of Judaism from the very beginning?

As I said, before Jesus it was through obedience to the law that showed that Israel loved God, now that Jesus has come that is no longer the case. Doing what is written in the law now shows disrespect to what Jesus has done. Jesus has died in vain if the works of the law still stand. What is the message that Jews and Gentiles have been given/commanded?

Israel did not love all according to the law.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 07:24 PM
As I said, before Jesus it was through obedience to the law that showed that Israel loved God, now that Jesus has come that is no longer the case.


Is it your notion that Christians are not under sacred law today? Do you not also show your love to God by obeying God's law? Isn't obedience the "fruit of love".
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." ~Jesus Christ

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2010, 01:09 PM
Is it your notion that Christians are not under sacred law today? Do you not also show your love to God by obeying God's law? Isn't obedience the "fruit of love".
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." ~Jesus Christ

What then is it that Jesus has commanded the disciples, to teach and for us to observe?

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What did the diciples teach for us to observe?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 19th 2010, 11:15 PM
What did the diciples teach for us to observe?


All things Jesus commanded...

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2010, 08:25 AM
All things Jesus commanded...

So what then are the scriptures that teach us what we are to observe and what not to observe, according to the gospel/teaching of Christ?

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 20th 2010, 11:42 AM
Well Kahtar - you say above that you never said the Mosaic system didn't end but in your post #65 you said...So which is it - are Christians under the Mosaic system or are we under the gospel of Christ. The Law of Moses was given only to the Hebrew nation at Sinai. That law was never given to the Patriarchs and it was never given to Christians. Do you teach Christians today observe the Law of Moses? Does the Law of Moses contain the 4th commandment. The 4th commandment was not an option for the Jews under the Mosaic system - it was a matter of law. Does the Law of Christ contain the compulsory command to "keep the Sabbath"? Maybe you can clarify your position.It is pointless to argue with you further. You bring out what appears to be a contradiction, but it really isn't, if you read what I wrote in context. But, never mind. I'm out of state for a week and can't spend time on this now.
But thanks for the lessons......;)

Gillian
Apr 20th 2010, 12:03 PM
I think I understand what firstfruit trying to say.

we dont love one other because of the law (as was before Christ) but we love each other NOW because of Christ rather love each other by law of stones.


got that correct firstfruit?

Gillian

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2010, 12:13 PM
I think I understand what firstfruit trying to say.

we dont love one other because of the law (as was before Christ) but we love each other NOW because of Christ rather love each other by law of stones.


got that correct firstfruit?

Gillian

Yes that is correct,

Thanks Gillian.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

inn
Apr 20th 2010, 06:16 PM
It is pointless to argue with you further. You bring out what appears to be a contradiction, but it really isn't, if you read what I wrote in context. But, never mind. I'm out of state for a week and can't spend time on this now.
But thanks for the lessons......;)

I would also like to know Kahtar, please tell us directly so we can know which way this issue is going, as if you agree that we don t need to keep the sabbath, then why reason with you when you already agree.

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2010, 07:03 PM
Does the following scripture tell us that keeping the sabbath was required?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and Years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

What was Paul implying?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 21st 2010, 02:22 AM
It is pointless to argue with you further. You bring out what appears to be a contradiction, but it really isn't, if you read what I wrote in context. But, never mind. I'm out of state for a week and can't spend time on this now.
But thanks for the lessons......;)
Well Kahtar I am not trying to be difficult and if I am misunderstanding what you are saying then you will need to clarify your position. You are correct - your position appears to be a contradiction.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 21st 2010, 03:52 AM
Does the following scripture tell us that keeping the sabbath was required?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and Years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

What was Paul implying?

Firstfruits
He seems to be implying that because they were not 'getting it'...the new wine/old wine skin part. But then he also wrote this...

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother?(Romans 14:5-10)

So, what is Paul implying here?

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2010, 12:51 PM
He seems to be implying that because they were not 'getting it'...the new wine/old wine skin part. But then he also wrote this...

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother?(Romans 14:5-10)

So, what is Paul implying here?

That it was not a requirement.

Firstfruits

inn
Apr 21st 2010, 04:09 PM
He seems to be implying that because they were not 'getting it'...the new wine/old wine skin part. But then he also wrote this...

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother?(Romans 14:5-10)

So, what is Paul implying here?

Paul was implying, or merely saying QUIET directly, don t worry too much about the day. Great scripture Rom 14!

thedee
Apr 21st 2010, 04:43 PM
Is it your notion that Christians are not under sacred law today? Do you not also show your love to God by obeying God's law? Isn't obedience the "fruit of love".
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." ~Jesus Christ

Are you saying that Christians are under the law? Also, I don't think your replied to post #119

losthorizon
Apr 21st 2010, 11:36 PM
Are you saying that Christians are under the law?


Of course Christians are under divine law – we are under the law of Christ. Do you somehow reason that Christians are not under God’s divine law? You appear to be confused about what "the law" means - yes?
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. (1Co 9:21 ESV)



Also, I don't think your replied to post #119

I think I did but let me answer again - we are to obey all scriptures that teach obedience to the commands of Christ. Among many others would be these:
1. Believe by acknowledging Jesus Christ as Messiah – the Son of God.
2. Repent of past sins.
3. Be baptized in water by immersion, symbolizing death to sin and a resurrection with Christ into new life “in Christ”.
4. Walking in the light as He is in the light.
5. Take the good news of salvation to others so they too can become disciples of Jesus Christ through the grace of God.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2010, 08:08 AM
Paul was implying, or merely saying QUIET directly, don t worry too much about the day. Great scripture Rom 14!

If there was a problem with the day, then the disciples would be at fault as they gathered for worship upon the first day of the week, and how many people abided in the apostles doctrine?

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2010, 08:13 AM
Of course Christians are under divine law – we are under the law of Christ. Do you somehow reason that Christians are not under God’s divine law? You appear to be confused about what "the law" means - yes?
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. (1Co 9:21 ESV)



I think I did but let me answer again - we are to obey all scriptures that teach obedience to the commands of Christ. Among many others would be these:
1. Believe by acknowledging Jesus Christ as Messiah – the Son of God.
2. Repent of past sins.
3. Be baptized in water by immersion, symbolizing death to sin and a resurrection with Christ into new life “in Christ”.
4. Walking in the light as He is in the light.
5. Take the good news of salvation to others so they too can become disciples of Jesus Christ through the grace of God.

I agree, but why we do we confuse the two laws, Moses and Christ?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:14 AM
I agree, but why we do we confuse the two laws, Moses and Christ?

Firstfruits
Not all of us do and none of us should - the Law of Moses was given to the Jews only and it was annulled at the Cross when the Mosaic system in its entirety was taken out of the way.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:46 AM
Not all of us do and none of us should - the Law of Moses was given to the Jews only and it was annulled at the Cross when the Mosaic system in its entirety was taken out of the way.

So with regards to the following, are we then a law to ourselves, doing what we believe we should in the law of Moses rather than what we have been taught according to the law of Christ?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 22nd 2010, 12:41 PM
So with regards to the following, are we then a law to ourselves, doing what we believe we should in the law of Moses rather than what we have been taught according to the law of Christ?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Firstfruits
The Gentiles in times past did not have the oracles from God, i.e., the written law of Moses but they could still keep the moral principles of the law of Moses (thou shall not kill, etc.) Today we live under the gospel of Christ – Jew and Gentile. The gospel of Christ includes the same moral principles.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2010, 12:58 PM
The Gentiles in times past did not have the oracles from God, i.e., the written law of Moses but they could still keep the moral principles of the law of Moses (thou shall not kill, etc.) Today we live under the gospel of Christ – Jew and Gentile. The gospel of Christ includes the same moral principles.

But not the 613 commandments of the law of Moses.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 22nd 2010, 10:13 PM
But not the 613 commandments of the law of Moses.

Firstfruits
The 613 Mitzvot includes many principles such as the requirement to know, love and fear God - the same principles are found in the gospel of Christ.

Sirus
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:06 PM
If there was a problem with the day, then the disciples would be at fault as they gathered for worship upon the first day of the week, and how many people abided in the apostles doctrine?

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

FirstfruitsThey did not gather the first day as a sabbath law that everyone had to observe. I'm sure some people did as some people have always wrongfully done, but the sabbath was NEVER about a day, it was ALWAYS about ceasing from work because God has already provided all things.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2010, 07:52 AM
The 613 Mitzvot includes many principles such as the requirement to know, love and fear God - the same principles are found in the gospel of Christ.

But we cannot pick and choose which commandments to follow when it comes to the law of Moses.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2010, 07:55 AM
They did not gather the first day as a sabbath law that everyone had to observe. I'm sure some people did as some people have always wrongfully done, but the sabbath was NEVER about a day, it was ALWAYS about ceasing from work because God has already provided all things.

So the following is the sabbath (7th day) not the first day as it is written?

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 23rd 2010, 11:16 AM
But we cannot pick and choose which commandments to follow when it comes to the law of Moses.

Firstfruits
Our obeying of God's law has nothing to do with the Law of Moses. The moral principles found in the law of Moses (thou shall not kill, etc.) were God's moral laws long before Sinai. They were His law "from the beginning". Christians live and die under the gospel of grace not the law given to Moses - man has never had the option to "pick and choose which commandments to follow".

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2010, 11:49 AM
Our obeying of God's law has nothing to do with the Law of Moses. The moral principles found in the law of Moses (thou shall not kill, etc.) were God's moral laws long before Sinai. They were His law "from the beginning". Christians live and die under the gospel of grace not the law given to Moses - man has never had the option to "pick and choose which commandments to follow".

I undrestand what you are saying about the moral law, however the moral law is only a part of the law of Moses. Keeping the moral law does not fulfil the law of Moses.

If when we speak abot the law of Moses we are only concerned with the morals contained there, and those morals have existed before the law came, then why do we need to mention the law of Moses as though without it there would be no morals?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 23rd 2010, 02:19 PM
I undrestand what you are saying about the moral law, however the moral law is only a part of the law of Moses. Keeping the moral law does not fulfil the law of Moses.

If when we speak abot the law of Moses we are only concerned with the morals contained there, and those morals have existed before the law came, then why do we need to mention the law of Moses as though without it there would be no morals?

Firstfruits
I don't know who the "we" are you refer to but God's moral law has always existed and is not dependant on the law of Moses. The law of Moses was given to the Jews only and the entire Mosaic system ended at the Cross.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2010, 02:28 PM
I don't know who the "we" are you refer to but God's moral law has always existed and is not dependant on the law of Moses. The law of Moses was given to the Jews only and the entire Mosaic system ended at the Cross.

Thanks Losthorizon,

I agree.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 23rd 2010, 10:16 PM
Thanks Losthorizon,

I agree.

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Good study - God bless. :)

Sirus
Apr 24th 2010, 01:35 AM
So the following is the sabbath (7th day) not the first day as it is written?

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

FirstfruitsThe sabbath is not any day -as it is written.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2010, 11:54 AM
The sabbath is not any day -as it is written.

The sabbath day is the 7th day, so how can what is written concering the first day of the week be the sabbath?

Ex 34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Firstfruits

Sirus
Apr 24th 2010, 04:37 PM
The sabbath day is the 7th day, so how can what is written concering the first day of the week be the sabbath?

Ex 34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

FirstfruitsHow many times do I need to say it is not the first day or the seventh?

For Christians, both Jew and Gentile, neither the first or last day is the sabbath. The sabbath is about ceasing from our work and resting in what God has already provided. The added sabbath day which was for Israel was a shadow, but Christ has come.

Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath, which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
There is no need to post Israel's Mosaic law. The Mosaic sabbath day is the shadow added because of Israel's transgression.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
He provided enough food in one day for two days, then preserved it. He was showing transgressing Israel that He was their portion.

You need to go back past the added law. Who ceased from work here? God did, not man.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Man was put in God's rest. God created and made (work) everything needed for the earth/universe to sustain itself (seasons, seed with life in itself --life cycle), then and only then created and made man. Everything man needed to live had been provided. This provision continues to this day.

Does man do any of the work God did to experience God's provision that came from His Sabbath? No! The work God did in the six days, that He has ceased from, does the rest.

Christ is come. We no longer embrace the shadow. We embrace Him. If Jesus appeared to you now would you look at His shadow instead of Him? Would you worship His shadow or Him?

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
.............
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
"It is finished". He has, already/past tense....
-given all things pertaining to life and godliness
-given great and precious promises
-obtained eternal redemption, the forgiveness of sins
-blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places
-made us sit together in heavenly places-planted together-crucified us, buried us, raised us up with Him, having made the way of escape from temptation

Everything needed for the Christian life-relationship with God, has been provided by Christ. This provision continues to this day. He and we are 'seated'. You do not have to work to get what has already been given. In fact if you do then Christ profits you nothing and you received the grace of God in vain. The heir will not share His inheritance with the son of the bondwoman.

Do we do any of the work Jesus did to experience His provision that came from His complete and finished work? No! We just have to believe in it -dress Gen 2:15, labor Heb 4:11. The work Jesus did, that He has ceased from, does the rest.

I know this is choppy but I don't have time to write four more detailed post.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2010, 04:50 PM
They did not gather the first day as a sabbath law that everyone had to observe. I'm sure some people did as some people have always wrongfully done, but the sabbath was NEVER about a day, it was ALWAYS about ceasing from work because God has already provided all things.

The law was about the rest but is was also about a specific day and that day was the seventh day.

Ex 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

Ex 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

Firstfruits

Sirus
Apr 24th 2010, 04:57 PM
Why do you care so much about the shadow Firstfruits?

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2010, 05:05 PM
Why do you care so much about the shadow Firstfruits?

I was answering a question from an earlier post.

Thanks!

Firstfruits

Sirus
Apr 24th 2010, 05:39 PM
Where? I don't see anyone asking a question about the sabbath, except you.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2010, 05:46 PM
Where? I don't see anyone asking a question about the sabbath, except you.

Have a look at 123 and 124.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 24th 2010, 06:11 PM
You do not have to work to get what has already been given. In fact if you do then Christ profits you nothing and you received the grace of God in vain.
Are you saying we do not need to do the *works God requires*? Are you saying if we do the works required by God it profits us nothing and we have received the grace of God in vain? That doesn't sound right - does it?
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" ~ John 6:28

Sirus
Apr 24th 2010, 06:32 PM
Have a look at 123 and 124.

FirstfruitsOK. I saw that, but then why do you keep posting from Exodus? I guess that's a better way of asking -what are you trying to say?

Sirus
Apr 24th 2010, 06:36 PM
Are you saying we do not need to do the *works God requires*? Are you saying if we do the works required by God it profits us nothing and we have received the grace of God in vain? That doesn't sound right - does it?
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" ~ John 6:28Yes. There are no works required to be saved. God only requires faith. What was Jesus' answer to the question?


Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Don't turn this into yet another baptismal regeneration thread please. I won't waste my time there.

losthorizon
Apr 24th 2010, 08:33 PM
God only requires faith. What was Jesus' answer to the question?


Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Bingo! Belief is a "work" and we MUST do the *works God requires* (works is plural, BTW). So your statement - work "profits you nothing and you received the grace of God in vain" is really a misstatement - the truth is we must "work the works of God". Those works are not optional - right? You appear to confuse "works of merit" with "works of faith" - big difference. Works of merit profit us nothing. On the other hand, works of faith - obeyed from the heart - put us "in Christ" where we find "all spiritual blessings". Are we on the same page? ;)

Sirus
Apr 24th 2010, 11:07 PM
Did you hear yourself? We do the work of God? Nowhere is faith a work. Nowhere! and nowhere do we do anything to merit salvation. Jesus did not say we must work the works of God. Sorry. We are not on the same page. I am on the grace through faith page.

losthorizon
Apr 25th 2010, 12:13 AM
Did you hear yourself? We do the work of God? Nowhere is faith a work. Nowhere! and nowhere do we do anything to merit salvation. Jesus did not say we must work the works of God. Sorry. We are not on the same page. I am on the grace through faith page.
Did you hear yourself - we must DO the works of God (works of faith) but you said earlier we must not DO works or our salvation is in danger - you are confused - yes?

According to Holy Writ and contrary to what you teach there are works that we MUST DO - we must believe among other works of faith. Does Jesus tell us we MUST repent or we will perish? Of course He does. Is belief and repentance works we DO in order to have salvation through His blood? Of course they are. Did you believe and repent before your sins were remitted or did you come in the back door?
I tell you...unless you repent, you too will all perish. ~ Jesus ChristWhen I worked the works of faith in obedience to the commands of Jesus Christ to have my sins remitted did I merit my own salvation or did I work the works of God in order to receive something - i.e., in order to receive salvation? Think about it. You appear to be saying God condemns us for obeying His commands. Is that what you are saying?

Sirus
Apr 25th 2010, 06:26 AM
Did you hear yourself - we must DO the works of God (works of faith) but you said earlier we must not DO works or our salvation is in danger - you are confused - yes? No I am not confused. I did and do say we do not do works to be saved.


According to Holy Writ and contrary to what you teach there are works that we MUST DO - we must believe among other works of faith. Does Jesus tell us we MUST repent or we will perish?Repentance is done with faith. They are never alone at salvation. Yes, Jesus says repent to sinners and those nearing apostasy.


Is belief and repentance works we DO in order to have salvation through His blood? Of course they are.No they are not. Faith is not a work anywhere in scripture. [notice- you didn't post any]


Did you believe and repent before your sins were remitted?Again, the spiritual is not work it is rest. ;)


When I worked the works of faith in obedience to the commands of Jesus Christ to have my sins remitted did I merit my own salvation or did I work the works of God in order to receive something - i.e., in order to receive salvation?You merited your own salvation.


Think about it. You appear to be saying God condemns us for obeying His commands. Is that what you are saying?God is merciful. If you do so in ignorance I believe you are already forgiven. If you really think you play a part in your salvation, woe unto you!

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2010, 10:53 AM
OK. I saw that, but then why do you keep posting from Exodus? I guess that's a better way of asking -what are you trying to say?

For those that keep the sabbath because of what God commanded, what better place to start than Gods own words.

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Apr 25th 2010, 02:48 PM
No I am not confused. I did and do say we do not do works to be saved.


But Holy Writ is clear – belief is a work of God – “a work” man DOES in response to the command of God to receive His gift of redemption through the blood of Christ. Your reasoning remains blurred.


Repentance is done with faith. They are never alone at salvation. Yes, Jesus says repent to sinners and those nearing apostasy.
Agreed repentance accompanies faith and both are *works of faith* that are required by God for man to DO before one is saved. In your own words they are things that “are done” by man, i.e., they are works). What part of the connection between “works”, “obey”, “God’s commands” and “salvation” are you missing? Man must DO something to be saved – he must obey from the heart the commands of God which include belief and repentance before one “shall be saved”.


No they are not. Faith is not a work anywhere in scripture.
“This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” ~ Jesus ChristYou are self-contradicting what you have pointed out earlier – belief is a work per Jesus Christ. What part of the words of Jesus are you missing? Believe is a work of God that man must DO before he is saved. Again you confuse “works of merit” with “works of faith” – the former profit nothing the latter are works required before one will be saved. Easy concept.


God is merciful. If you do so in ignorance I believe you are already forgiven. If you really think you play a part in your salvation, woe unto you!
But I have not obeyed God’s word in ignorance at all – why would I? I did DO something in God's plan to save my soul. I “obeyed from the heart” the gospel of Christ – “the doctrine which was delivered”. I was the servant of sin until:
(1) I heard the gospel preached.
(2) I believed the “good news” to be true – I believed Jesus was the Son of God and confessed that fact before men.
(3) I obeyed the gospel of Christ from my heart and received redemption through the blood of Christ.Now after I did what God has commanded including believing and repenting from the heart you are telling me I will be damned because I have obeyed what God commanded me to do. Your logic appears to be illogical. Can you please explain to us how one is condemned for obeying God?
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Rom 6:16-18 KJV)

Sirus
Apr 25th 2010, 03:54 PM
For those that keep the sabbath because of what God commanded, what better place to start than Gods own words.

FirstfruitsYes, but it must be understood correctly. You are posting the law added to Israel alone because of their transgression, that when broken by a man gathering sticks, stoned him to death. How does that relate to a new covenant believer not under the added and annulled mosaic law?

Sirus
Apr 25th 2010, 04:20 PM
But Holy Writ is clear – belief is a work of God – “a work” man DOES in response to the command of God to receive His gift of redemption through the blood of Christ. Your reasoning remains blurred. You are still just repeating yourself.


Agreed repentance accompanies faith and both are *works of faith*No they are not. Works of faith are things done after salvation as a result of having faith.


In your own words they are things that “are done” by man, i.e., they are works).They are never called a work. You still have not provided scripture that says they are.


What part of the connection between “works”, “obey”, “God’s commands” and “salvation” are you missing? Man must DO something to be saved – he must obey from the heart the commands of God which include belief and repentance before one “shall be saved”.
“This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” ~ Jesus ChristYou are self-contradictingNo I am not. That is not at all what that verse and chapter mean. It is God's work not mans. The entire chapter is about the work of God not man. That He sent His Son that whosoever believe (6x). That no one comes unless the Father (11x) draws -work of God (Father/Son/Spirit). How does God draw? Through His Son. By sending His Son to be lifted up and draw all men. The grace of God appeared to all men -The Cross -The Gospel is preached. Faith comes by hearing the gospel and preaching of the cross. That is the work of God, not the work of man. Man is simply told to believe the gospel.


Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jesus said

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

But I have not obeyed God’s word in ignorance at all – why would I? I did DO something in God's plan to save my soul. I “obeyed from the heart” the gospel of Christ – “the doctrine which was delivered”. I was the servant of sin until:
(1) I heard the gospel preached.
(2) I believed the “good news” to be true – I believed Jesus was the Son of God and confessed that fact before men.
(3) I obeyed the gospel of Christ from my heart and received redemption through the blood of Christ.Now after I did what God has commanded including believing and repenting from the heart you are telling me I will be damned because I have obeyed what God commanded me to do. Your logic appears to be illogical. Can you please explain to us how one is condemned for obeying God?
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Rom 6:16-18 KJV)You have described salvation through grace and faith here not works of merit for salvation.

losthorizon
Apr 25th 2010, 04:59 PM
They are never called a work. You still have not provided scripture that says they are.

Are you saying Jesus was wrong when He said belief was a work? What part of belief and repentance is not a work of faith? When you repented did you accomplish that act of obedience by your own effort or were you forced to repent beyond your will? Were you saved before you repented?
Work - something produced or accomplished by man's effort.
No I am not. That is not at all what that verse and chapter mean. It is God's work not mans.
You are contradicting yourself again and of course it is God’s work but man must make *the effort* to believe and repent via man’s free-will. Did you consciously and freely make *the effort* to believe and repent once you heard God’s word or did God have you on auto-pilot? If I freely choose to believe God through faith do I merit salvation? If I repent of my sins from the heart via my own effort (a work of faith) am I meriting salvation?


You have described salvation through grace and faith here not works of merit for salvation.
Yes I have correctly described salvation through God’s grace. As stated - works of merit profit nothing. God will never “owe” us salvation. The truth remains, however - salvation is conditioned on man’s free-will acceptance of God’s grace by “working the works of God”, i.e., by obeying from the heart the gospel of grace. When you obeyed God at conversion (believing and repenting) was it a work of faith? If it was not a work of faith on your part what exactly was it? Was Abraham justified by a faith that obeyed God?
“…by faith…Abraham obeyed…” Again I ask – am I condemned for obeying from the heart the gospel of Jesus Christ? If I teach that man must make an effort (work God's work) to be saved by believing and repenting am I condemned by God?

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2010, 10:05 PM
Yes, but it must be understood correctly. You are posting the law added to Israel alone because of their transgression, that when broken by a man gathering sticks, stoned him to death. How does that relate to a new covenant believer not under the added and annulled mosaic law?

Under the new covenant there is no requirement to keep the sabbath. If that is not so then Jesus would have commanded the disciples to preach it to be observed.

Firstfruits

Sirus
Apr 26th 2010, 02:10 AM
Are you saying Jesus was wrong when He said belief was a work?No because Jesus never said any such thing.


What part of belief and repentance is not a work of faith?How can faith be a work of faith? :idea:


When you repented did you accomplish that act of obedience by your own effort or were you forced to repent beyond your will?Neither. I was created with a spirit from God for the purpose of responding positively to the gospel (given the ability to have faith). I agreed with what I was created to do. God did His part in creating me with the ability- I did my part in doing the truth. If God had not given me the ability to place the faith He gave me in Him, and if He had not given His Son -Grace, I'd still be living according the the natural course of this world in disobedience.


Were you saved before you repented?No. Well I was written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world because God knew I would place the ability of faith He gave me in Christ. But no, it did not happen in time until it happened in time.


Work - something produced or accomplished by man's effort.Right. I did not accomplish it on my own so it is not a work.


You are contradicting yourself again and of course it is God’s work but man must make *the effort* to believe and repent via man’s free-will.That takes effort? It was the easiest thing I have ever done. Took no effort at all. Getting saved is easy.


Yes I have correctly described salvation through God’s grace. As stated - works of merit profit nothing. God will never “owe” us salvation. The truth remains, however - salvation is conditioned on man’s free-will acceptance of God’s grace by “working the works of God”, i.e., by obeying from the heart the gospel of grace. When you obeyed God at conversion (believing and repenting) was it a work of faith? If it was not a work of faith on your part what exactly was it? Was Abraham justified by a faith that obeyed God?
“…by faith…Abraham obeyed…” Again I ask – am I condemned for obeying from the heart the gospel of Jesus Christ? If I teach that man must make an effort (work God's work) to be saved by believing and repenting am I condemned by God?Man placing his God given ability to have faith in God is not a work. I think what you teach is wrong and dangerous. I think you do it sincerely, but you are sincerely wrong. Your intent is good. God is merciful and just. I do not know how God will judge His servant.

Sirus
Apr 26th 2010, 02:11 AM
Under the new covenant there is no requirement to keep the sabbath. If that is not so then Jesus would have commanded the disciples to preach it to be observed.

FirstfruitsCorrect!
Thank you!

losthorizon
Apr 26th 2010, 02:32 AM
No because Jesus never said any such thing.


Jesus never said faith was a “work”? Are you sure?
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:29
How can faith be a work of faith?
Then you tell me – what kind of work is faith if not a work done through faith? Did Jesus say belief is a work?


Neither. I was created with a spirit from God for the purpose of responding positively to the gospel (given the ability to have faith). I agreed with what I was created to do. God did His part in creating me with the ability- I did my part in doing the truth. If God had not given me the ability to place the faith He gave me in Him, and if He had not given His Son -Grace, I'd still be living according the the natural course of this world in disobedience.
You didn’t answer the question – did you repent through your *own effort* or did God have you on auto-pilot? Easy question – give it a shot this time.


No. Well I was written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world because God knew I would place the ability of faith He gave me in Christ. But no, it did not happen in time until it happened in time.
Did you repent from your own effort or did God force you to repent?


Right. I did not accomplish it on my own so it is not a work.
You did not believe and repent of your own free-will? Are you a robot?


That takes effort? It was the easiest thing I have ever done. Took no effort at all. Getting saved is easy.
Sure believing and repenting takes effort. Did you DO something to be saved – did you believe and repent?


I think what you teach is wrong and dangerous. I think you do it sincerely, but you are sincerely wrong. Your intent is good. God is merciful and just. I do not know how God will judge His servant.
So it is wrong and dangerous to sincerely obey God from the heart? How is that possible exactly? Do you believe what Holy Writ states we are set free from sin through the blood of Christ when we obey God from the heart? Is that a dangerous statement that can damn my soul?
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Rom 6:16-18 KJV)

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2010, 11:38 AM
Correct!
Thank you!

You are welcome.

God bless you!

Firstfruits