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tmentour
Apr 13th 2010, 05:32 PM
Asking for a sign to an answer form God seems ok, I probably don't understand the full context of this but:
Isaiah 7:10-13= 10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."

12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test."

13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [a] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [b] will call him Immanuel. [c]

Nomad
Apr 13th 2010, 08:35 PM
Ahaz feigns piety when he refuses God's offer based on Deut. 6:16:


Deu 6:16 "You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah.


I love Calvin's comment on Isa. 7:12. I think he captures Ahaz's folly nicely.



But a question arises. Do we tempt God, when we accept what he offers to us? Certainly not. Ahaz therefore speaks falsehood, when he pretends that he refuses the sign, because he is unwilling to tempt God; for there can be nothing fitter or more excellent than to obey God, and indeed it is the highest virtue to ask nothing beyond the word of God; and yet if God choose to add anything to his word, it ought not to be regarded as a virtue to reject this addition as superfluous. It is no small insult offered to God, when his goodness is despised in such a manner as if his proceedings towards us were of no advantage, and as if he did not know what it is that we chiefly need. We know that faith is chiefly commended on this ground, that it maintains obedience to him; but when we wish to be too wise, and despise anything that belongs to God, we are undoubtedly abominable before God, whatever excuse we may plead before men. While we believe the word of God, we ought not to despise the aids which he has been pleased to add for the purpose of strengthening our faith.

John Calvin on Isaiah 7:12

Servant89
Apr 13th 2010, 09:51 PM
Asking for a sign to an answer form God seems ok, I probably don't understand the full context of this but:
Isaiah 7:10-13= 10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."

12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test."

13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [a] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. [c]

This is what I call a religious trip. There are lot of people like that, that do not get the point that our righteousness is a filthy rag and we will never impress God with our own righteousness. Ahaz said: "I am not that kind of people that tempt the Lord, I would not do that." And in doing so, he was boasting about his goodness, but at the same time, was not cooperating with God (rebellion). If Abraham had had religious trip, he would had said to God in Gen 22, Not so Lord, I have never killed anyone, I am a righteous person, I can not kill a boy, much less my own son. Ask someone else, I am too good a person for that. If Abraham had done that, he would not be the father of the faith.

The same religious trip happened to Peter, trying to impress God with his lousy righteousness. Read it below.

Acts 10:10 And he (Peter) became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 [B]This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

God had to repeat it 3 times, some people had lots of religious trips. Those people with religious trips are under the law (boasting about their resume in the law).

Shalom

jayne
Apr 14th 2010, 12:09 AM
Chapter 7 says that the northern kingdom of Israel and the Syrians were making war against King Ahaz and Judah. It also says that Ahaz got bad reports and was scared to death.

In 2 Kings 16, Ahaz made a terrible bargain with Assyria and asked for them to protect him and fight along side him. These were horrible people who were NOT making a friendly alliance.

God asked Ahaz to trust HIM. Ahaz wouldn't do it. He had more faith in the might of the Assyrians than Almighty God.

God even asked Ahaz to allow Him to prove Himself. Ahaz basically spit in God's face by saying, "No thanks, I wouldn't dream of putting you to test."

Ahaz didn't WANT the truth that test would prove. If Ahaz watched God prove Himself, then he would have to bow to God's authority and sovereignty. He didn't want to do that. He wanted to take command of his own life and steer his own ship.

And he paid for it.

yoshiyahu
Apr 14th 2010, 06:34 AM
This is the original event that promted the command to not test the Lord.



Exo 17:1 And all the congregation of the sons of Israel pulled up stakes from the Wilderness of Sin, according to their journeys, by the mouth of Jehovah. And they camped in Rephidim. And there was no water for the drinking of the people.
Exo 17:2 And the people wrangled with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said to them, Why do you wrangle with me? Why do you tempt Jehovah?
Exo 17:3 And the people thirsted there for water, and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Why, then, have you caused us to go up from Egypt, to kill me and my sons and my livestock with thirst?
Exo 17:4 And Moses cried to Jehovah, saying, What shall I do to this people? Yet a little and they will stone me.
Exo 17:5 And Jehovah said to Moses, Pass on in front of the people, and take with you some of the elders of Israel. And take in your hand your staff with which you smote the River, and go.
Exo 17:6 Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb. And you shall smite the rock, and water will come out of it; and the people will drink. And Moses did so before the eyes of the elders of Israel.
Exo 17:7 And one called the name of the place, Massah, and Meribah, because of the wrangling of the sons of Israel, and because of their testing of Jehovah, saying, Is Jehovah in our midst, or not?

This is the verse that Jesus quoted in Matthew 4 when the devil tryed to get him to tempt God.

Deu 6:16 You shall not test Jehovah your God as you tested Him in Massah.

yoshiyahu
Apr 14th 2010, 06:43 AM
Massah means testing and meribah means quarreling.



Psa 95:8 do not harden your heart as in the day of strife, as in the day of testing in the wilderness.
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tried Me, they tested Me and they saw My work.
Psa 95:10 For forty years I was disgusted with this generation; and I said, They are a people who err in heart; and, They do not know My ways,
Psa 95:11 to whom I swore in My anger, They shall not enter into My rest.





Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear lest perhaps a promise having been left to enter into His rest, that any of you may seem to come short.
Heb 4:2 For, indeed, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also; but the Word did not profit those hearing it, not having been mixed with faith in the ones who heard.
Heb 4:3 For we, the ones believing, enter into the rest, even as He said, "As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter into My rest," though the works had come into being from the foundation of the world.





Deu 33:8 At Massah and Meribah Spring, the LORD tested you, tribe of Levi. You were faithful, and so the priesthood belongs to the Levi tribe.


There are lots of verses about this subject. It is a huge subject in the Old Testament. It would have been well known to the Kings of Judah and Isreal.

yoshiyahu
Apr 14th 2010, 06:59 AM
I agree with this jewish interpretation of the passage....


In Isaiah 7:9, God gives Ahaz an ultimatum: "If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established." In other words, Ahaz must believe God in order to establish his throne.

It was now time to test Ahaz' faith! Isaiah 7:10-11 explains that the LORD, through the prophet Isaiah, asked Ahaz the following, "Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above." In defiance, Ahaz tells Isaiah in Isaiah 7:12, "I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD."

Ahaz refused to ask God and to comply with His request. Therefore, he demonstrated his unbelief and a complete absence of faith. As a result, God's response was immediately directed to the house of David and the Judaic line of kings. According to the LORD, since Ahaz failed to meet the requirement specified in Isaiah 7:9, his throne would NOT be established. This resulted in the LORD's immediate judgment against the house of David. While David's line failed in God's conditional promise, God's unconditional promise would be fulfilled in a sign: a virgin would conceive and bear a Son. God Himself would become the Father of the Messiah! In Isaiah 7:13-14 the words of the prophet reveal:

"And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? (14) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."