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Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2010, 09:15 PM
The following scriptures tell us what it means to be born, is there any other way to become the children of God, born of the Spirit?

1 Jn 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 Jn 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 Jn 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Jn 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Jn 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 Pet 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

God bless!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2010, 12:35 PM
By being born again by faith in Christ we are promised eternal life in the kingdom of heaven.

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

God bless!

Firstfruits

thedee
Apr 14th 2010, 12:47 PM
By being born again by faith in Christ we are promised eternal life in the kingdom of heaven.

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

God bless!

Firstfruits

Yup, Only those who have faith in Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit indwelt in them and are thus born of God.

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2010, 01:16 PM
Yup, Only those who have faith in Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit indwelt in them and are thus born of God.

Thank you Thedee,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 14th 2010, 04:08 PM
Thank you Thedee,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Would this be biblicial? Only thoes who have the faith of Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit indwelt in them and are begotten of God but will still sin however one born of God will not sin. Just a thought.

Joey Porter
Apr 14th 2010, 05:53 PM
I would have to say that no one is "born again" while still in these flesh bodies. To truly be "born again," will not happen until the resurrection as Paul talked about in 1 Corinthinas 15.

40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. ...

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

Yahshua Himself also talked about this to Nicodemus.

John 3
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." ...

12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Just as Paul made a distinction between an earthly man and heavenly man, and made it clear that we will not have our heavenly bodies until the resurrection, so also Yahshua talked to Nicodemus about the difference between earthly things and heavenly things - all of this while telling him about the necessity of being born again to enter the Kingdom of heaven.

I would say when looking at the NT teachings on this subject as a whole, it is evident that no one is or can truly be "born again," born of the spirit, while still occupying sinful flesh. The spirit and the flesh are at enmity with each other, and it is not possible to truly be born of the spirit while still being born of earthly flesh.

John146
Apr 14th 2010, 06:12 PM
I would have to say that no one is "born again" while still in these flesh bodies. To truly be "born again," will not happen until the resurrection as Paul talked about in 1 Corinthinas 15.

40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. ...

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

Yahshua Himself also talked about this to Nicodemus.

John 3
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." ...

12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Just as Paul made a distinction between an earthly man and heavenly man, and made it clear that we will not have our heavenly bodies until the resurrection, so also Yahshua talked to Nicodemus about the difference between earthly things and heavenly things - all of this while telling him about the necessity of being born again to enter the Kingdom of heaven.

I would say when looking at the NT teachings on this subject as a whole, it is evident that no one is or can truly be "born again," born of the spirit, while still occupying sinful flesh. The spirit and the flesh are at enmity with each other, and it is not possible to truly be born of the spirit while still being born of earthly flesh.I disagree completely. Do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you? If so, how can you not consider yourself to be born of the Spirit? While we still await being changed and having immortal and incorruptible bodies, scripture clearly teaches that we are born of the Spirit even now.

1 John 1:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Peter 1
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If you believe Jesus is the Christ then you are born of God. To be born of God and born again or born of the Spirit is the same thing. If you have "purified your soul(s) in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren" then you have been born again of incorruptible seed. Though we are born of the Spirit we still at the same time have to contend with our flesh. Just because that is the case does not mean we are not born of the Spirit.

Gal 5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

How can someone walk in the Spirit and be led of the Spirit if they are not born of the Spirit? Was Paul telling them to do something that was impossible?

When we are born of the Spirit (born again) we enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5), which Jesus said "is not of this world" (John 18:36) and "is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Rom 14:17).

Joey Porter
Apr 14th 2010, 08:43 PM
I disagree completely. Do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you? If so, how can you not consider yourself to be born of the Spirit? While we still await being changed and having immortal and incorruptible bodies, scripture clearly teaches that we are born of the Spirit even now.

1 John 1:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Peter 1
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If you believe Jesus is the Christ then you are born of God. To be born of God and born again or born of the Spirit is the same thing. If you have "purified your soul(s) in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren" then you have been born again of incorruptible seed. Though we are born of the Spirit we still at the same time have to contend with our flesh. Just because that is the case does not mean we are not born of the Spirit.

Gal 5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

How can someone walk in the Spirit and be led of the Spirit if they are not born of the Spirit? Was Paul telling them to do something that was impossible?

When we are born of the Spirit (born again) we enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5), which Jesus said "is not of this world" (John 18:36) and "is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Rom 14:17).

Well that all may be so, but how do you reconcile the verses that John wrote saying that those born of God can not sin, when all men in flesh bodies sin, in some way or another?

Romans 4
17the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

The God who calls things that are not as though they were. Here is an example of this in the New Testament:

Ephesians 2
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Now, we can all agree that when Paul wrote that, he was in a perishing body on this earth, writing to other people in perishing bodies on this earth.

Another example:

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.

Yahweh operates outside of the bounds of time. We, however, can pretty much only look at things from a human perspective, within the bounds of time. From our human perspective, Yahshua was slain 4,000 years AFTER the foundation of the world.

The point I'm trying to make is that in the scriptures, there are things written from God's point of view, and things written from man's point of view. (God repented, God does not repent; Choose to follow God, no one can choose to follow God; You will be born again at the resurrection, you have been born again; We are prisoners in earthly flesh bodies, we are seated in heavenly places; etc)

And the truth is, as long as we are in these flesh bodies, we are for the most part reduced to looking at things from man's point of view.

Having said that, we can conclude that in fact, we are absolutely not born again in the truest and most realized sense until the resurrection.

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 14th 2010, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Joey Porter
I would have to say that no one is "born again" while still in these flesh bodies. To truly be "born again," will not happen until the resurrection as Paul talked about in 1 Corinthinas 15.

40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. ...

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

Yahshua Himself also talked about this to Nicodemus.

John 3
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." ...

12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Just as Paul made a distinction between an earthly man and heavenly man, and made it clear that we will not have our heavenly bodies until the resurrection, so also Yahshua talked to Nicodemus about the difference between earthly things and heavenly things - all of this while telling him about the necessity of being born again to enter the Kingdom of heaven.

I would say when looking at the NT teachings on this subject as a whole, it is evident that no one is or can truly be "born again," born of the spirit, while still occupying sinful flesh. The spirit and the flesh are at enmity with each other, and it is not possible to truly be born of the spirit while still being born of earthly flesh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





I strongly disagree.. if this is the case as to what your teaching.. then the Salvation He Granted me is a farse and not true.. as is every other Genuine christian Saved by Him and Born of the Spirit.....

but I 'know' I was Born Again.. Feb 3 1994... Quickened in the spirit... Forgiven of all prior tresspasses... having the sting of condemnation and guilt removed by His Precious blood as He revealed HImself to me .. not only Himself.. but His Unmerited goodness.. which He bestowed upon me in my life... this driving me to repentance... at the Revelation of Him and His Goodness...

if one is not truley Born AGain of the Spirit... and this doesnt happen until His 2nd Coming.... then there is No Gospel, and Christ is not risen from the Dead... and ye are still dead in Trepasses and Sins... there would be no use for the Good News.. if one is not Born of the Spirit until He returns... then there would be 'no joy', no hope......but for the Genuine Chrisitan.. this is the Basis for their walk... Faith and Hope and Charity.... and the Greatest of these is Charity... but faith and hope are key elements....

but this we 'know'.. and I know Personally, Christ is alive today.. and He is Arisen from the Dead... because He touched me Feb 3 1994...

and if one is not Truely Born Again.. then Jesus was 'not' made a quickening Spirit as Paul reveals to us...

but He Was ..... this the Last Adam.. made a quickeniing Spirit.. so that He might bring us to God the Father..

what you posted.. I COMPLETELY REJECT.... and that My Friends.. is my .02 for the Day..

John146
Apr 14th 2010, 09:27 PM
Well that all may be so,May be so? Or is so? Isn't the scripture I quoted clear?


but how do you reconcile the verses that John wrote saying that those born of God can not sin, when all men in flesh bodies sin, in some way or another?You're taking those verses out of context. What John wrote is similar to what Paul wrote here:

Gal 5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

If we are walking in the Spirit then we will not sin. But it is not automatic that we walk in the Spirit. We have to be obedient and submit to the Spirit's leading in order to walk in the Spirit who dwells in us. If we do that then we will not sin.

1 John 5
18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

If John was saying here that whoever is born of God never sins then why would he warn believers to keep themselves from idols? Why would he warn people who are born of God (those who believe in Christ are born of God - 1 John 5:1) to keep themselves from idols if it wasn't possible that they could be deceived into worshiping false idols?

1 John 3
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Notice here that being born of God does not automatically mean that you will not sin. It also requires that you "abideth in Him". As Paul says it requires that you walk in the Spirit and are led of the Spirit.

What verses like 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 mean when they say that the one who is born of God "sinneth not" is that those who are saved and born again no longer habitually sin and sin without remorse or guilt as they did before. Instead of loving sin as we did before we were born again we now hate sin. If we are not careful to walk in the Spirit we can still give in to the flesh, but that doesn't mean we are not born of God. Walking in the Spirit that dwells in us and made us to be born again does require spiritual discipline in order to "sinneth not" and "shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh".


The point I'm trying to make is that in the scriptures, there are things written from God's point of view, and things written from man's point of view. (God repented, God does not repent; Choose to follow God, no one can choose to follow God; You will be born again at the resurrection, you have been born again; We are prisoners in earthly flesh bodies, we are seated in heavenly places; etc)

And the truth is, as long as we are in these flesh bodies, we are for the most part reduced to looking at things from man's point of view.

Having said that, we can conclude that in fact, we are absolutely not born again in the truest and most realized sense until the resurrection.The future physical resurrection of the dead in Christ is never referred to in terms of being born again. Do you think we will not be spiritually alive until our bodies are resurrected and changed?

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2010, 10:08 PM
Would this be biblicial? Only thoes who have the faith of Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit indwelt in them and are begotten of God but will still sin however one born of God will not sin. Just a thought.

Just because we believe and by believing we are promised everlasting life we are commanded to abide in Jesus in order to obtain the promises.

Not all will abide.

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 15th 2010, 01:40 AM
Just because we believe and by believing we are promised everlasting life we are commanded to abide in Jesus in order to obtain the promises.

Not all will abide.

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Firstfruits

I think after one is born of God which I also think is the resurrection we will be like him and will abise in him forever and will not sin. 1 John 3:9 KJV is correct as written relative to 3:2 post second coming.

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2010, 07:56 AM
I think after one is born of God which I also think is the resurrection we will be like him and will abise in him forever and will not sin. 1 John 3:9 KJV is correct as written relative to 3:2 post second coming.

In the scripture Jesus is saying that we must abide, or we shall be cast into the lake of fire. That would then be how we live now, would it not?

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 15th 2010, 02:32 PM
In the scripture Jesus is saying that we must abide, or we shall be cast into the lake of fire. That would then be how we live now, would it not?

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Firstfruits

Does this mean we can lose our salvation?

percho
Apr 15th 2010, 02:48 PM
theBelovedDisciple


Are these verses talking about the same time frame and have they taken place yet?
1 John 3:2, Philippians 3:20,21 and Romans 8:29 conformed to the image

If the answer to the first part is yes and to the second part is no then Christ who is called the firstborn from the dead by his resurrection would become the firstborn of many brethren when we are born from the dead at our resurrection/change as he was.

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2010, 03:22 PM
Does this mean we can lose our salvation?

Yes it does.

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

We cannot abide in Christ if we have not come to Christ. We cannot leave Christ unless we first abide in Christ.

Firstfruits

inn
Apr 15th 2010, 04:04 PM
Yes it does.

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.





We cannot abide in Christ if we have not come to Christ. We cannot leave Christ unless we first abide in Christ.

Firstfruits

Yes, AMEN and the only way in is by the door, John10, and if Jesus is the door, and we only can enter by Him, well that's seems pretty secure to me.


Jn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Jn 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Jn 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Joey Porter
Apr 15th 2010, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Joey Porter
I would have to say that no one is "born again" while still in these flesh bodies. To truly be "born again," will not happen until the resurrection as Paul talked about in 1 Corinthinas 15.

40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. ...

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

Yahshua Himself also talked about this to Nicodemus.

John 3
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." ...

12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Just as Paul made a distinction between an earthly man and heavenly man, and made it clear that we will not have our heavenly bodies until the resurrection, so also Yahshua talked to Nicodemus about the difference between earthly things and heavenly things - all of this while telling him about the necessity of being born again to enter the Kingdom of heaven.

I would say when looking at the NT teachings on this subject as a whole, it is evident that no one is or can truly be "born again," born of the spirit, while still occupying sinful flesh. The spirit and the flesh are at enmity with each other, and it is not possible to truly be born of the spirit while still being born of earthly flesh.
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I strongly disagree.. if this is the case as to what your teaching.. then the Salvation He Granted me is a farse and not true.. as is every other Genuine christian Saved by Him and Born of the Spirit.....

but I 'know' I was Born Again.. Feb 3 1994... Quickened in the spirit... Forgiven of all prior tresspasses... having the sting of condemnation and guilt removed by His Precious blood as He revealed HImself to me .. not only Himself.. but His Unmerited goodness.. which He bestowed upon me in my life... this driving me to repentance... at the Revelation of Him and His Goodness...

if one is not truley Born AGain of the Spirit... and this doesnt happen until His 2nd Coming.... then there is No Gospel, and Christ is not risen from the Dead... and ye are still dead in Trepasses and Sins... there would be no use for the Good News.. if one is not Born of the Spirit until He returns... then there would be 'no joy', no hope......but for the Genuine Chrisitan.. this is the Basis for their walk... Faith and Hope and Charity.... and the Greatest of these is Charity... but faith and hope are key elements....

but this we 'know'.. and I know Personally, Christ is alive today.. and He is Arisen from the Dead... because He touched me Feb 3 1994...

and if one is not Truely Born Again.. then Jesus was 'not' made a quickening Spirit as Paul reveals to us...

but He Was ..... this the Last Adam.. made a quickeniing Spirit.. so that He might bring us to God the Father..

what you posted.. I COMPLETELY REJECT.... and that My Friends.. is my .02 for the Day..

I am not sure why you say that if we aren't truly born again until the resurrection that all of those things could not be true.

When you, or anyone, comes to a knowledge and acceptance of the gospel to the best of our understanding (as you did in 1994), it does not necessarily equate with being "born again." In fact, if you read the entirety of John chapter 3, and Yahshua's teaching to Nicodemus on that subject, it becomes evident that repentance and acceptance of the gospel absolutely does NOT equate to being "born again" in the sense that Yahshua spoke of it.

Joey Porter
Apr 15th 2010, 04:45 PM
May be so? Or is so? Isn't the scripture I quoted clear?

You're taking those verses out of context. What John wrote is similar to what Paul wrote here:

Gal 5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

If we are walking in the Spirit then we will not sin. But it is not automatic that we walk in the Spirit. We have to be obedient and submit to the Spirit's leading in order to walk in the Spirit who dwells in us. If we do that then we will not sin.

1 John 5
18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

If John was saying here that whoever is born of God never sins then why would he warn believers to keep themselves from idols? Why would he warn people who are born of God (those who believe in Christ are born of God - 1 John 5:1) to keep themselves from idols if it wasn't possible that they could be deceived into worshiping false idols?

1 John 3
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Notice here that being born of God does not automatically mean that you will not sin. It also requires that you "abideth in Him". As Paul says it requires that you walk in the Spirit and are led of the Spirit.

What verses like 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 mean when they say that the one who is born of God "sinneth not" is that those who are saved and born again no longer habitually sin and sin without remorse or guilt as they did before. Instead of loving sin as we did before we were born again we now hate sin. If we are not careful to walk in the Spirit we can still give in to the flesh, but that doesn't mean we are not born of God. Walking in the Spirit that dwells in us and made us to be born again does require spiritual discipline in order to "sinneth not" and "shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh".

The future physical resurrection of the dead in Christ is never referred to in terms of being born again. Do you think we will not be spiritually alive until our bodies are resurrected and changed?

Well it is obvious that the scriptures being discussed here are NOT clear, otherwise you would not have had to add further explanation to what John said.

If it is written "Those born of God do not and can not commit sin," the simplest and "clearest" understanding of that would be the most literal interpretation - that anyone who is born again absolutely does not, can not, and will not sin in any way. But my intention is not to debate the absolute meaning of those verses from 1 John.

It is John chapter 3 that is the most critical and revealing scriptural text on this issue.

John 3
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Now, what "born again" person have you ever met that has the ability to come and go like the wind, as Yahshua Himself did in the presence of the disciples, AFTER he was raised in a spiritual, heavenly body?

He clearly equates being "born again" with possessing the type of body that HE did AFTER His resurrection. (He did not have that spiritual body at the time He was teaching Nicodemus; He was in a flesh body. That is why He did not come and go like the wind before He was raised.)

And to answer your last question, I would say that we are not truly "born of the Spirit" until we have spiritual bodies. Flesh gives birth to flesh and we are still in flesh bodies. Spirit gives birth to spirit. That happens at the resurrection.

percho
Apr 15th 2010, 06:21 PM
Well it is obvious that the scriptures being discussed here are NOT clear, otherwise you would not have had to add further explanation to what John said.

If it is written "Those born of God do not and can not commit sin," the simplest and "clearest" understanding of that would be the most literal interpretation - that anyone who is born again absolutely does not, can not, and will not sin in any way. But my intention is not to debate the absolute meaning of those verses from 1 John.

It is John chapter 3 that is the most critical and revealing scriptural text on this issue.

John 3
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Now, what "born again" person have you ever met that has the ability to come and go like the wind, as Yahshua Himself did in the presence of the disciples, AFTER he was raised in a spiritual, heavenly body?

He clearly equates being "born again" with possessing the type of body that HE did AFTER His resurrection. (He did not have that spiritual body at the time He was teaching Nicodemus; He was in a flesh body. That is why He did not come and go like the wind before He was raised.)

And to answer your last question, I would say that we are not truly "born of the Spirit" until we have spiritual bodies. Flesh gives birth to flesh and we are still in flesh bodies. Spirit gives birth to spirit. That happens at the resurrection.

Amen and I say Amen

Also by the way most people understand salvation I do not have a probelm with losing it however after being born again via resurrection/change I think it would be impossible to lose it or if you could lose it to be restored. Sic Heb. 6:4-6 a/c tasted of the world to come is via the resurrection/change and they have gone on to perfection.

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2010, 09:15 PM
I am not sure why you say that if we aren't truly born again until the resurrection that all of those things could not be true.

When you, or anyone, comes to a knowledge and acceptance of the gospel to the best of our understanding (as you did in 1994), it does not necessarily equate with being "born again." In fact, if you read the entirety of John chapter 3, and Yahshua's teaching to Nicodemus on that subject, it becomes evident that repentance and acceptance of the gospel absolutely does NOT equate to being "born again" in the sense that Yahshua spoke of it.

How then do you explain this scipture?

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2010, 09:18 PM
Amen and I say Amen

Also by the way most people understand salvation I do not have a probelm with losing it however after being born again via resurrection/change I think it would be impossible to lose it or if you could lose it to be restored. Sic Heb. 6:4-6 a/c tasted of the world to come is via the resurrection/change and they have gone on to perfection.

When would the following scripture apply, would we not have to believe before the day of redemption?

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 15th 2010, 10:26 PM
When would the following scripture apply, would we not have to believe before the day of redemption?

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Firstfruits

In the Greek 1 Jn 5:1 all three related to generation could be translated born, begotten, begat in Matt. 1:20 it's translated conceived. It depends on what is being talked about. Now we know from scripture that the elect have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit and it dwells in our mortal corruptable bodies and we are begotten of God but are still subject to sin. I know that I do. Notice how prior to 1 Jn 3 it says this very thing but in chapter 3 he says we are the children of God begotten of the spirit, we have the spirit of adoption waiting. Yet we don't know what we shall be but when shall appear. This changes the total context for rest of chapter 3 because when he shall appear is at the resurrection then we can be spoken of born of God and unable to sin.
The reason I think this is clear to me is because I do not find an immortal soul in scripture. As a matter of fact 1 Cor says mortal man must put on immortality. This is not talking about the body. Corruption putting on incorruption is talking about the body.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2010, 08:32 AM
In the Greek 1 Jn 5:1 all three related to generation could be translated born, begotten, begat in Matt. 1:20 it's translated conceived. It depends on what is being talked about. Now we know from scripture that the elect have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit and it dwells in our mortal corruptable bodies and we are begotten of God but are still subject to sin. I know that I do. Notice how prior to 1 Jn 3 it says this very thing but in chapter 3 he says we are the children of God begotten of the spirit, we have the spirit of adoption waiting. Yet we don't know what we shall be but when shall appear. This changes the total context for rest of chapter 3 because when he shall appear is at the resurrection then we can be spoken of born of God and unable to sin.
The reason I think this is clear to me is because I do not find an immortal soul in scripture. As a matter of fact 1 Cor says mortal man must put on immortality. This is not talking about the body. Corruption putting on incorruption is talking about the body.

So does what you have said mean that as children of God we shall see the kingdom of God, with regards to the following?

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Firstfruits

Joey Porter
Apr 16th 2010, 12:48 PM
Amen and I say Amen

Also by the way most people understand salvation I do not have a probelm with losing it however after being born again via resurrection/change I think it would be impossible to lose it or if you could lose it to be restored. Sic Heb. 6:4-6 a/c tasted of the world to come is via the resurrection/change and they have gone on to perfection.

Nice to have someone in agreement!

Yes, I would think that since being truly "born again" does not happen until the resurrection, then likewise salvation in its fullest sense would not be complete until then. So it is certainly possible to "lose" it before then.

But again, it's all in the perspective that we're looking from. Yahweh knows the end from the beginning, and knows those whom He have chosen. So, from our perspective, we choose Him or reject Him. Therefore, to us, it appears as though we can "lose" our salvation.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2010, 01:02 PM
Nice to have someone in agreement!

Yes, I would think that since being truly "born again" does not happen until the resurrection, then likewise salvation in its fullest sense would not be complete until then. So it is certainly possible to "lose" it before then.

But again, it's all in the perspective that we're looking from. Yahweh knows the end from the beginning, and knows those whom He have chosen. So, from our perspective, we choose Him or reject Him. Therefore, to us, it appears as though we can "lose" our salvation.

If we are not born again, are we not children of God?

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our Spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Jn 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

1 Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Are or are you not a child of God?

Are you not joint heirs with Christ by being a child of God?

Firstfruits

Joey Porter
Apr 16th 2010, 01:23 PM
How then do you explain this scipture?

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Firstfruits

The only way I see to reconcile ALL of this together, all of these verses, is to keep in mind those verses that I referenced earlier. Yahweh calls things that are not as though they were.

The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, us being seated in heavenly places, etc. I have to say that when taking all of the references to being "born again" into account, Yahshua's own words in John chapter 3 are the most clearcut on the subject. No one is truly and fully "born again" until possessing the type of body that He possessed after His resurrection.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2010, 01:35 PM
The only way I see to reconcile ALL of this together, all of these verses, is to keep in mind those verses that I referenced earlier. Yahweh calls things that are not as though they were.

The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, us being seated in heavenly places, etc. I have to say that when taking all of the references to being "born again" into account, Yahshua's own words in John chapter 3 are the most clearcut on the subject. No one is truly and fully "born again" until possessing the type of body that He possessed after His resurrection.

That does not agree with what is written.

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Can we not believe that Jesus is born of God now, and can we not love God now?

Are you not a child of God now?

Firstfruits

percho
Apr 16th 2010, 01:39 PM
So does what you have said mean that as children of God we shall see the kingdom of God, with regards to the following?

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Firstfruits

I think we will see, enter into and inherit the kingdom in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. In Luke 18 eternal life, being saved, entering the kingdom of God and the world to come are all spoken of as the same thing. We are baptized into the body of Christ, the church by the Holy Spirit begotten of God and shall be born into the kingdom in due time.
I think our total physical birth is related to our spiritual birth which would include gestation and even miscarriage which is a God thing where abortion is something humans do against the will of God.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2010, 03:16 PM
I think we will see, enter into and inherit the kingdom in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. In Luke 18 eternal life, being saved, entering the kingdom of God and the world to come are all spoken of as the same thing. We are baptized into the body of Christ, the church by the Holy Spirit begotten of God and shall be born into the kingdom in due time.
I think our total physical birth is related to our spiritual birth which would include gestation and even miscarriage which is a God thing where abortion is something humans do against the will of God.


So you agree that we are begotten of God, born again?

Firstfruits

John146
Apr 16th 2010, 08:01 PM
It is John chapter 3 that is the most critical and revealing scriptural text on this issue.

John 3
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Now, what "born again" person have you ever met that has the ability to come and go like the wind, as Yahshua Himself did in the presence of the disciples, AFTER he was raised in a spiritual, heavenly body?

He clearly equates being "born again" with possessing the type of body that HE did AFTER His resurrection.But His body could be physically seen. The wind can't be seen. You have completely taken John 3:8 out of context. It is the Holy Spirit being compared to the wind, not those who are born of the Holy Spirit. You can't see the Holy Spirit just as you can't see the wind. When He indwelt us we couldn't see Him come into us. No one can see the Holy Spirit. But, as people can hear the wind and see the effects of the wind, they can see the effects of the Holy Spirit. They can see how the Holy Spirit changes us on the inside from what we were before.


And to answer your last question, I would say that we are not truly "born of the Spirit" until we have spiritual bodies. Flesh gives birth to flesh and we are still in flesh bodies. Spirit gives birth to spirit. That happens at the resurrection.Are we not spiritually alive now? Were we not formerly dead in trespasses and sins but were made spiritually alive when we were saved (Eph 2:4-6)?

John146
Apr 16th 2010, 08:20 PM
The reason I think this is clear to me is because I do not find an immortal soul in scripture. As a matter of fact 1 Cor says mortal man must put on immortality.That is only speaking of bodily immortality.
This is not talking about the body.Yes, it is.
Corruption putting on incorruption is talking about the body.Both are talking about the body. Let me show you why 1 Cor 15 is only speaking of the immortality of the body rather than of the soul and/or spirit.

1 Cor 15
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Notice that the type of resurrection that Paul is referring to in 1 Cor 15 is one that will be like Christ's resurrection, which was a bodily resurrection. He was not dead in trespasses and sins as we were before being saved so he had no need for his spirit to be made alive as sinners do. So, He was only dead bodily and the dead in Christ are also only dead bodily. Again, Paul indicated that the resurrection of the dead in Christ will be of the same nature as His resurrection, which was a bodily resurrection only. So, since Christ was resurrected bodily with an immortal and incorruptible body, that is what will happen with those who are His at His coming as well. Only our bodies will need to changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible at that time, just as His was long ago.

percho
Apr 17th 2010, 02:40 AM
That is only speaking of bodily immortality. Yes, it is. Both are talking about the body. Let me show you why 1 Cor 15 is only speaking of the immortality of the body rather than of the soul and/or spirit.

1 Cor 15
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Notice that the type of resurrection that Paul is referring to in 1 Cor 15 is one that will be like Christ's resurrection, which was a bodily resurrection. He was not dead in trespasses and sins as we were before being saved so he had no need for his spirit to be made alive as sinners do. So, He was only dead bodily and the dead in Christ are also only dead bodily. Again, Paul indicated that the resurrection of the dead in Christ will be of the same nature as His resurrection, which was a bodily resurrection only. So, since Christ was resurrected bodily with an immortal and incorruptible body, that is what will happen with those who are His at His coming as well. Only our bodies will need to changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible at that time, just as His was long ago.

Where was Jesus's body for three days and three nights after his entombment?
Where was Jesus's soul for three days and three nights after his death?
What is a living soul?

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2010, 11:49 AM
What does it mean for Jesus to be born of God?

Firstfruits

kay-gee
Apr 17th 2010, 12:24 PM
We are told that He is the the BEGOTTEN son of God. I don't believe that applies to us in the same sense. We can be born of the spirit of God (Holy Spirit), but we could never be a part of the God head. Father, SON, and Holy Spirit, as spoken of in Matthew 28:19

all the best...

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2010, 12:27 PM
We are told that He is the the BEGOTTEN son of God. I don't believe that applies to us in the same sense. We can be born of the spirit of God (Holy Spirit), but we could never be a part of the God head. Father, SON, and Holy Spirit, as spoken of in Matthew 28:19

all the best...

How is Jesus born of God, which does not apply to us?

Firstfruits

kay-gee
Apr 17th 2010, 09:40 PM
]How is Jesus born of God,

There are some things to be taken on faith. No man can really answer a question such as that.

all the best...

percho
Apr 18th 2010, 02:42 AM
A week ago yesterday my eighth grandchild was born. He weighed 9.2 lbs. For 38 weeks my daughter in law carried him inside of herself. He was my son's child for those 38 weeks yet unborn.
Yes we are begotten of God as in conceived, and can say abba Father because we have the spirit of adoption.

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2010, 10:05 AM
[QUOTE=Firstfruits;2389857

There are some things to be taken on faith. No man can really answer a question such as that.

all the best...

Is it not according to the will of God, and that is by his word?

Jn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If Jesus was born according to the will/word of God, and we are born according to the will/word of God, is there a difference?

Firstfruits

John146
Apr 19th 2010, 05:26 PM
Where was Jesus's body for three days and three nights after his entombment?Did you mean during his entombnent? If so, then his body was in the tomb. He rose from the dead bodily on the third day and went out of the tomb that day.


Where was Jesus's soul for three days and three nights after his death?In heaven with the Father.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.


What is a living soul?The word soul can refer to a human being in general or to a human being's soul, which is a separate part of a person in addition to a person's spirit and body.

BroRog
Apr 19th 2010, 05:42 PM
Did you mean during his entombnent? If so, then his body was in the tomb. He rose from the dead bodily on the third day and went out of the tomb that day.

In heaven with the Father.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The word soul can refer to a human being in general or to a human being's soul, which is a separate part of a person in addition to a person's spirit and body.This raises an interesting question. What did Jesus expect the Father to do with his spirit? Did he expect that the Father would take him to heaven? If so, what did he mean when he told Mary, "I have not yet ascended to the father." John 10:17

Gillian
Apr 19th 2010, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Firstfruits;2389857[QUOTE
]How is Jesus born of God,There are some things to be taken on faith. No man can really answer a question such as that.

mm sure we can! Born in Mary womb who converted by Holy Spirit. lol

as for Himself begin Godhead, that take on as faith.

Gillian
Apr 19th 2010, 06:11 PM
what did he mean when he told Mary, "I have not yet ascended to the father." john 20.17

since His mission is finished. he telling Mary not to cling on Him as he not yet go up to heaven, that is, Jesus going to heavenon that day but back again same day to see his disciples shortly a she have done.
I feel He often back forth to heaven and to earth in that short peroid after his araisen.

why not? his mission finisihed pretty much.

by the way soul mean emotoinally, animals had souls and we have souls. feelings anger upset sorrowed, same for any living moving creatures.

I love you with all my soul, heart mind etc excuse me not YOU.
:lol:

John146
Apr 19th 2010, 06:53 PM
This raises an interesting question. What did Jesus expect the Father to do with his spirit? Did he expect that the Father would take him to heaven? If so, what did he mean when he told Mary, "I have not yet ascended to the father." John 10:17When He was speaking to Mary He had not yet bodily ascended to the Father, so that doesn't necessarily mean He had not yet ascended to the Father spiritually. He told the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43).

percho
Apr 19th 2010, 07:51 PM
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell.

What soul is this?

Did he give the thief what he asked for, more than he asked for or less than he asked for?

In Acts 9:40 was Tabitha more happy or more sad that Peter raised her from the dead. Did that mean her soul/spirit had to return from heaven and being with Jesus?

And she opened her eyes and she saw Peter. He lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off.

Is this the same kind of response?

Why did he have to ascend to the Father that morning? Or did he have to?

percho
Apr 19th 2010, 08:03 PM
By the way I think he meant literally, Do not touch me. He could not be touched until he had ascended to and returned from the Father.

divaD
Apr 19th 2010, 08:07 PM
1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Can we not believe that Jesus is born of God now, and can we not love God now?







I'm not sure if I'm understanding you here, but are you implying the verse is saying that Jesus is born of God, or is it that the verse is saying, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ, these are born of God? Personally, I see it meaning the latter. The latter seems to agree with the context that follows.

Gillian
Apr 19th 2010, 08:14 PM
Jesus is begotten Son of God. we diff by begotten sons of God in adaoptaions (misspell)


a verse said that somewhere.. such as angels can be called sons of God as well

why not same for us.

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2010, 08:20 PM
I'm not sure if I'm understanding you here, but are you implying the verse is saying that Jesus is born of God, or is it that the verse is saying, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ, these are born of God? Personally, I see it meaning the latter. The latter seems to agree with the context that follows.

It is the latter.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2010, 08:22 PM
Jesus is begotten Son of God. we diff by begotten sons of God in adaoptaions (misspell)


a verse said that somewhere.. such as angels can be called sons of God as well

why not same for us.

We are joint heirs with Jesus, so if we are not sons of God or born again can that be so?

Firstfruits

divaD
Apr 19th 2010, 08:33 PM
It is the latter.

God bless you!

Firstfruits



thanks FF, for clarifying. I've skimmed thru this thread and read most posts. I think at least one member concludes we are not born again until Christ's 2nd coming. I'm pretty certain 1 John 5:1 trumps that. Wouldn't being born of God and being born again be the same? When do we believe that Jesus is the Christ? Now, or at His 2nd coming? At His 2nd coming may be a bit too late I would think.

percho
Apr 19th 2010, 09:02 PM
thanks FF, for clarifying. I've skimmed thru this thread and read most posts. I think at least one member concludes we are not born again until Christ's 2nd coming. I'm pretty certain 1 John 5:1 trumps that. Wouldn't being born of God and being born again be the same? When do we believe that Jesus is the Christ? Now, or at His 2nd coming? At His 2nd coming may be a bit too late I would think.

Being I think I am that one member please comment on my post no. 38 in context with 1 John 5:1 understanding the words translated there born, begat and begotten could all be translated the same. Go to Blue Letter Bible 1 John 5:1 click on v for versions. I (Just me it seems) think we beleive, we are begotten and become heirs then in due time we will be born (just as Jesus was the first born from the dead) (please comment on this also) inheritors with Christ into the family of God. We will be conformed to his image. He will call us brothers. Does the bible say this or not? Am I taking something out of context?

Also when this takes place we will not be able to sin anymore which makes 1 John 3:9- correct with out twisting the meaning of the text.

It also makes 1 John 1:8 true.

Gillian
Apr 19th 2010, 09:42 PM
We are joint heirs with Jesus, so if we are not sons of God or born again can that be so?

Firstfruits

sorry think you misunderstood me? excuse my writing.
yes we can by faith are begotten sons of God by adaoption.

Gillian

Gillian
Apr 19th 2010, 10:00 PM
Being I think I am that one member please comment on my post no. 38 in context with 1 John 5:1 understanding the words translated there born, begat and begotten could all be translated the same. Go to Blue Letter Bible 1 John 5:1 click on v for versions. I (Just me it seems) think we beleive, we are begotten and become heirs then in due time we will be born (just as Jesus was the first born from the dead) (please comment on this also) inheritors with Christ into the family of God. We will be conformed to his image. He will call us brothers. Does the bible say this or not? Am I taking something out of context?

Also when this takes place we will not be able to sin anymore which makes 1 John 3:9- correct with out twisting the meaning of the text.

It also makes 1 John 1:8 true.



you are right but I agree with other posters on that we by our faith, our cleaned born again spirits because it already clean anew by Holy Spirit
by that we are born again in spirits but not the fleshly bodily yet, till we wholy renew given a body. in the day of the Lord along with our spirits, already renewed on earth by blood of Jesus. That (such a hope such a liberty.) premitted us to be rewarded, born again or a new body.

literally sense of librety by Holy Spriit. truth set your free in spirits, but bodily, as we looking forward to heaven in eagerness, at rest with new bodily, new flesh of our own, one that not under death, everything go back as it was before Fall of Adam.

Jesus is firstfruit of the dead as he called, because only he in heaven fleshy the blood, while rest of the dead up there are waiting for their new bodies cos death take their earthy flesh.


I dont think you should dimmed the liberity and born again in out spirits by Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit can not dwell in anybody within their spirits that not clean/or new state by blood of Jesus.

of couse in fullness of librety, both spirits and flesh new bodies will be the Day of the Lord.

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2010, 08:12 AM
thanks FF, for clarifying. I've skimmed thru this thread and read most posts. I think at least one member concludes we are not born again until Christ's 2nd coming. I'm pretty certain 1 John 5:1 trumps that. Wouldn't being born of God and being born again be the same? When do we believe that Jesus is the Christ? Now, or at His 2nd coming? At His 2nd coming may be a bit too late I would think.

Agreed,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2010, 08:23 AM
We are joint heirs with Jesus, so if we are not sons of God or born again can that be so?

Firstfruits

sorry think you misunderstood me? excuse my writing.
yes we can by faith are begotten sons of God by adoption.

Gillian

Thanks Gillian,

Agreed.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Firstfruits

BroRog
Apr 20th 2010, 04:41 PM
When He was speaking to Mary He had not yet bodily ascended to the Father, so that doesn't necessarily mean He had not yet ascended to the Father spiritually. He told the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43).I'm not so sure Jesus was being that technical. If Jesus went to heaven, bodily or not, how could he say to Mary that he didn't?

divaD
Apr 20th 2010, 04:46 PM
I'm not so sure Jesus was being that technical. If Jesus went to heaven, bodily or not, how could he say to Mary that he didn't?



Something else I've often wondered, why were His disciples allowed to touch Him physically later on, but Mary wasn't, if the reason being, in Mary's case, that He had not yet ascended to the Father?

Gillian
Apr 20th 2010, 04:50 PM
I'm not so sure Jesus was being that technical. If Jesus went to heaven, bodily or not, how could he say to Mary that he didn't?

begin that technial ? you thinking man viewpoint. we get technical of things we dont quite know or that hard to us, in depth etc I dont think Jesus who know and feel eaxlty as it is get techniail on something simple as it would so natural to Him.

it man that get tech on everything.

Gillian

percho
Apr 20th 2010, 05:38 PM
Wave sheaf

On the morrow after the weekly sabbath during the feast of unleavened bread following passover.

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. Lev. 23:10,11

The first [day] of the week cometh Mary. John 10:1


Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. John 20:17.

When Jesus talked to Mary, He the firstfruit had not been waved before God to be accepted for us.

BroRog
Apr 20th 2010, 05:49 PM
Something else I've often wondered, why were His disciples allowed to touch Him physically later on, but Mary wasn't, if the reason being, in Mary's case, that He had not yet ascended to the Father?Yea :)

I don't think Jesus was concerned about being touched. I read this as a very tender moment between Jesus and Mary. From her point of view, she just lost her best friend, her Lord, her hopes for a fulfilled life of goodness, righteousness, and flourishing under the leadership of God's annointed. When she sees Jesus alive her instinct is to hang on to him as if to say, "I let you go once, I'm not going to let you go again." Jesus' response to her is, "Don't worry Mary, I'm not going anywhere yet. I'm not going to ascend to my father until I meet with the other disciples and have a long talk about things."

John146
Apr 20th 2010, 06:14 PM
I'm not so sure Jesus was being that technical. If Jesus went to heaven, bodily or not, how could he say to Mary that he didn't?Again, He told the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). Is paradise not in heaven? Paul indicated that paradise is a place that someone he knew (possibly himself) was caught up to, which he also referred to as "the third heaven":

2 Cor 12
2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So, again, I believe He was telling Mary that He still had to ascend bodily to heaven and not that He had not yet been to heaven at all. Unless you can show that paradise is somewhere besides heaven, it sure seems to me that the spirit of Jesus went to heaven when He physically died. And I think that is implied here as well:

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

It seems to me that He knew His spirit was going to go to be with the Father once He physically died.


Something else I've often wondered, why were His disciples allowed to touch Him physically later on, but Mary wasn't, if the reason being, in Mary's case, that He had not yet ascended to the Father?It didn't have anything to do with Him not wanting anyone to touch Him (why would it matter if anyone touched Him?), but she was clutching on to Him and not wanting Him to leave again, but He knew He had to go to the Father. So, He didn't want anyone clinging to Him with the hope that He would never be away from them again because that was not going to be the case.

BroRog
Apr 20th 2010, 07:03 PM
Again, He told the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). Is paradise not in heaven?I'm not sure. I'm not even sure the term paradise, used in it's figurative sense, is a specific place at all. We get the word "paradise" from the Persians and roughly means "park." It seems to me, that the figurative use denotes any pleasent, harmonious, peaceful, place of rest. Heaven is certainly a place like that, but I think we can find other places on earth that are like that too. The Septuagent uses the term to indicate "Eden" or "Eden Restored". Perhaps Jesus was refering to the concept of "Eden Restored" speaking hyperbolically about the fact that his death on the cross would make the thief's life in "Eden Restored" a reality, not necessarily suggesting that the thief would go to that place immediately.


Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

It seems to me that He knew His spirit was going to go to be with the Father once He physically died.
What do we actually know about what happens to a spirit when someone commits his spirit to the father? How do we know that the father must take it to heaven in order to protect it?

divaD
Apr 20th 2010, 09:58 PM
It didn't have anything to do with Him not wanting anyone to touch Him (why would it matter if anyone touched Him?), but she was clutching on to Him and not wanting Him to leave again, but He knew He had to go to the Father. So, He didn't want anyone clinging to Him with the hope that He would never be away from them again because that was not going to be the case.


Since you and BroRog pretty much come to the same conclusions, I'll agree to agree, unless at some later time I discover something that causes me to change my mind. But I can see how your(you and Brorog's) conclusions are logical.

percho
Apr 21st 2010, 05:14 PM
Why did the priest wave the sheaf on the morrow after the sabbath?

Does the conversation Jesus had with Mary not state that he must ascend to the Father that morning. For I have not yet ascended - Say I ascend

Before it is MY Father - After it's MY and YOUR

To be accepted for you. The first fruit from the dead. He was the sheaf of first fruit.

He tells her why he can't be touched or if you will be cling to.

divaD
Apr 21st 2010, 08:06 PM
Why did the priest wave the sheaf on the morrow after the sabbath?

Does the conversation Jesus had with Mary not state that he must ascend to the Father that morning. For I have not yet ascended - Say I ascend

Before it is MY Father - After it's MY and YOUR

To be accepted for you. The first fruit from the dead. He was the sheaf of first fruit.

He tells her why he can't be touched or if you will be cling to.


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.



Are you implying Jesus ascended to the Father, then came back, then encountered the brethren in that verse?

percho
Apr 21st 2010, 09:44 PM
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.



Are you implying Jesus ascended to the Father, then came back, then encountered the brethren in that verse?

Yes Jesus was the first fruit of the harvest of the dead. Mary's encounter with him was before he was presented before the Father to be accepted for us as such. Presently Christ is the only one harvested from the dead. The order is given in 1 Cor. 15:23 Christ first then those in Christ at his coming. Lev. 23 Christ our passover died for us. Feast of unleavened bread began the next day Christ purging our sins from us which we should strive to keep purged 1 Cor. 5:8 Paul says let us keep the feast of unleavened bread. Two days later was the morrow after the weekly sabbath was the waving of the sheaf to be accepted for us (Christians) then on the morrow after the sabbath fifty days later came The feast of first fruits Pentacost the giving of the first fruit of the Spirit (that which makes you a Christian) (puts you in Christ). Sometime between the encounter with Mary and that night with his disciples he ascended to the Father and returned. I think proberly before the encounter on the road to Emmaus.

divaD
Apr 21st 2010, 10:20 PM
Yes Sometime between the encounter with Mary and that night with his disciples he ascended to the Father and returned. I think proberly before the encounter on the road to Emmaus.


This goes to show, sometimes one should just stick to their gut feeling, regardless. The truth is. this is pretty much how the text read to me also. But it appeared that no one else was coming to that conclusion, so I'm thinking, perhaps my first instinct was wrong then. I told John146 that I would agree to agree, unless something caused me to change my mind later on. I had no clue it might be this soon tho. How can I disagree with you, when this was my conclusion from the beginning, even tho I wasn't 100% certain I was correct? But the text seems to imply that Jesus was going to ascend to the Father, and to tell the brethren that. Now why would Mary need to tell the brethren that, when Jesus could have told them Himself? Unless of course, He ascendend and returned in the meantime. Then when we see Him encounter the brethren, He eats with them, He allows them to check Him out, so to speak, yet He wouldn't allow Mary to even touch Him. He must have ascended and returned since seeing Mary.

RogerW
Apr 22nd 2010, 12:51 AM
This goes to show, sometimes one should just stick to their gut feeling, regardless. The truth is. this is pretty much how the text read to me also. But it appeared that no one else was coming to that conclusion, so I'm thinking, perhaps my first instinct was wrong then. I told John146 that I would agree to agree, unless something caused me to change my mind later on. I had no clue it might be this soon tho. How can I disagree with you, when this was my conclusion from the beginning, even tho I wasn't 100% certain I was correct? But the text seems to imply that Jesus was going to ascend to the Father, and to tell the brethren that. Now why would Mary need to tell the brethren that, when Jesus could have told them Himself? Unless of course, He ascendend and returned in the meantime. Then when we see Him encounter the brethren, He eats with them, He allows them to check Him out, so to speak, yet He wouldn't allow Mary to even touch Him. He must have ascended and returned since seeing Mary.

Hi David,

How about another twist??? When did He descend into the lower parts of the earth? The text tells us it was before He ascended...yes?

Eph*4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph*4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph*4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Blessings,
RW

percho
Apr 22nd 2010, 04:37 AM
[QUOTE=RogerW;2392965]Hi David,

How about another twist??? When did He descend into the lower parts of the earth? The text tells us it was before He ascended...yes?

Eph*4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph*4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph*4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Blessings,

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Those verses in Ephesians is just another way of saying Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Not the exact verse I was thinking of however I think it will do.

He led captivity captive by being raised from the dead>

percho
Apr 23rd 2010, 03:44 AM
When was Paul born of God?
When was Abraham born of God?
When was Nicodemus born of God?
When was the thief on the cross born of God?

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2010, 08:06 AM
When was Paul born of God?
When was Abraham born of God?
When was Nicodemus born of God?
When was the thief on the cross born of God?

When they believed and put their faith in God.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Firstfruits