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VerticalReality
Apr 13th 2010, 10:57 PM
I was just wondering if others have ever thought about this possibility regarding a man and woman becoming "one flesh."

Often times I hear two very opposite points of view when it comes to this topic. On one hand you have folks who really get hyper-spiritual when it comes to this. They speak as if becoming "one flesh" is something that happens spiritually.

On the other side you have those who believe that becoming "one flesh" is simply the act of having a sexual relationship.

However, I was wondering if anyone has ever considered the possibility that becoming "one flesh" means a man and woman coming together and creating children together . . .

Thoughts?

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2010, 11:13 PM
What you said is usually what happens when a man and woman come together.:P
Consider this:
Prior to God making Eve, Adam was a complete being. In making Eve, God took from Adam, took a part of Adam, and formed Eve. Adam was no longer complete, but together, they were one complete human.
Each of us individually are incomplete. When we come together with the right mate, together, we are complete. The weaknesses of one are fulfilled in the other.
But, all this was a picture for us, a testimony of what our relationship with Christ should be. Without Christ, the church is incomplete. We have our being in Christ Who completes us. He is the head, we the body.

genealogist
Apr 13th 2010, 11:32 PM
Also consider when a man and woman come together, it is for the purpose of procreating. The resulting child is one flesh from them. So the application extends beyond just the man and woman becoming one flesh.

VerticalReality
Apr 14th 2010, 01:07 AM
What you said is usually what happens when a man and woman come together.:P
Consider this:
Prior to God making Eve, Adam was a complete being. In making Eve, God took from Adam, took a part of Adam, and formed Eve. Adam was no longer complete, but together, they were one complete human.
Each of us individually are incomplete. When we come together with the right mate, together, we are complete. The weaknesses of one are fulfilled in the other.
But, all this was a picture for us, a testimony of what our relationship with Christ should be. Without Christ, the church is incomplete. We have our being in Christ Who completes us. He is the head, we the body.

I'm sorry, but what exactly are you wanting me to consider? That God made Eve from Adam? That finding our spouse makes us "complete" and this now somehow makes us "one flesh?"

Actually, your post to me seems to fall in line with the extreme hyper-spiritual view, and it requires a TON of reading into passages to come up with it. Why does the statement "one flesh" have to define some super spiritual or allegorical union? Why can't it just mean that one person made of flesh and another person made of flesh are joining together sexually to create another person made of flesh? Why can't becoming "one flesh" mean that a man and his seed is joining with a woman and her egg thus creating one flesh that is a mixture of the both of them?

Kahtar
Apr 14th 2010, 02:04 AM
I'm sorry, but what exactly are you wanting me to consider? That God made Eve from Adam? That finding our spouse makes us "complete" and this now somehow makes us "one flesh?"
Actually, your post to me seems to fall in line with the extreme hyper-spiritual view, and it requires a TON of reading into passages to come up with it. Why does the statement "one flesh" have to define some super spiritual or allegorical union? Why can't it just mean that one person made of flesh and another person made of flesh are joining together sexually to create another person made of flesh? Why can't becoming "one flesh" mean that a man and his seed is joining with a woman and her egg thus creating one flesh that is a mixture of the both of them?I'm sorry. I thought you wanted other's viewpoints. You can view it any way you like, and it can mean whatever you want it to mean.
Thank you for the 'extreme hyper-spiritual' lable, BTW. That was quite uplifting.

VerticalReality
Apr 14th 2010, 03:10 AM
I'm sorry. I thought you wanted other's viewpoints. You can view it any way you like, and it can mean whatever you want it to mean.
Thank you for the 'extreme hyper-spiritual' lable, BTW. That was quite uplifting.

Not trying to offend you. What I would like is scripture to support what you're saying. I'm just not certain what about your post you are wanting me to consider. Do you want me to consider that God made Eve from Adam and this is what is meant by "one flesh" or are you saying that us finding a spouse "completes" us and this is what is meant by "one flesh"? Furthermore, if the latter is your view, what scripture are you using to support it? I find the latter view to be quite confusing as the scriptures do not state that the man and woman together become "one completed person" or "one united fusion". It says that they become "one flesh."

As for the "hyper-spiritual" label . . . that's exactly what you seem to be saying. You seem to be saying that the scriptures do not literally mean "one flesh" but rather some allegorical super-union of a spiritual nature between a man and woman. The problem is that I don't know of any scriptures that say this. Can you provide them? To carry your thought further, what about the man being joined with a harlot and becoming "one flesh" with her as Paul illustrates in 1 Corinthians 6? Paul says they are becoming "one flesh," yet we certainly could not say that they are somehow "completing" one another. How does your view harmonize with that?

VerticalReality
Apr 14th 2010, 03:51 AM
BTW, the term flesh gives a physical connotation, so something physical and tangible is taking place. It's not some spiritual or allegorical symbolism. It seems some groups are trying to force the spiritual relationship we have with our Lord to be identical to the relationship we have with our spouse. However, the marriage relationship between man and woman is the SHADOW of our union with Christ. It's not identical to our union with Christ. So, becoming "one flesh" with our spouse would seem to me to be a real physical event . . . not some allegorical symbolism. We become "one spirit" with our Lord and "one flesh" with our spouse. However, some seem to be saying that we become "one spirit" with our Lord and "one spirit" with our spouse. The two are not the same. The physical is a shadow of the spiritual. So, there is a real physical event taking place that is a shadow of the spiritual event. There is a literal event of two becoming one literal flesh to be a shadow of a literal event where two become one spirit.

thedee
Apr 14th 2010, 04:26 AM
I was just wondering if others have ever thought about this possibility regarding a man and woman becoming "one flesh."

Often times I hear two very opposite points of view when it comes to this topic. On one hand you have folks who really get hyper-spiritual when it comes to this. They speak as if becoming "one flesh" is something that happens spiritually.

On the other side you have those who believe that becoming "one flesh" is simply the act of having a sexual relationship.

However, I was wondering if anyone has ever considered the possibility that becoming "one flesh" means a man and woman coming together and creating children together . . .

Thoughts?

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For the two, He says, “shall become one flesh." - 1 Cor 6:15

yoshiyahu
Apr 14th 2010, 04:55 AM
I think that all three are true.....

Mograce2U
Apr 14th 2010, 02:37 PM
I was just wondering if others have ever thought about this possibility regarding a man and woman becoming "one flesh."

Often times I hear two very opposite points of view when it comes to this topic. On one hand you have folks who really get hyper-spiritual when it comes to this. They speak as if becoming "one flesh" is something that happens spiritually.

On the other side you have those who believe that becoming "one flesh" is simply the act of having a sexual relationship.

However, I was wondering if anyone has ever considered the possibility that becoming "one flesh" means a man and woman coming together and creating children together . . .

Thoughts?Certainly the fruit of the sexual union is the child but the one flesh union between the man and the woman is one of 'cleaving'. That speaks of being joined fast to - of abiding as one unit.

Gen 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

H1692. dabaq, daw-bak'; a prim. root; prop. to impinge, i.e. cling or adhere; fig. to catch by pursuit:--abide, fast, cleave (fast together), follow close (hard, after), be joined (together), keep (fast), overtake, pursue hard, stick, take.

Eph 5:29 - For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Eph 5:30 - For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Eph 5:31 - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

One flesh speaks of the care one has for his spouse as though she were part of his own body. If its good for him, then it is good for her and vice versa! And selfishness goes out the window.

VerticalReality
Apr 14th 2010, 03:30 PM
Certainly the fruit of the sexual union is the child but the one flesh union between the man and the woman is one of 'cleaving'. That speaks of being joined fast to - of abiding as one unit.

Gen 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

H1692. dabaq, daw-bak'; a prim. root; prop. to impinge, i.e. cling or adhere; fig. to catch by pursuit:--abide, fast, cleave (fast together), follow close (hard, after), be joined (together), keep (fast), overtake, pursue hard, stick, take.

Eph 5:29 - For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Eph 5:30 - For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Eph 5:31 - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

One flesh speaks of the care one has for his spouse as though she were part of his own body. If its good for him, then it is good for her and vice versa! And selfishness goes out the window.

That is a very valid point, thank you! However, my one question would be this . . .

If becoming one flesh only means "cleaving," then what about children? Children also "cleave" to the father or mother as well. Does that mean they are also one flesh? Wouldn't that then open up the same sort of thing to anyone that comes under my care or leadership?

Mograce2U
Apr 14th 2010, 03:38 PM
That is a very valid point, thank you! However, my one question would be this . . .

If becoming one flesh only means "cleaving," then what about children? Children also "cleave" to the father or mother as well. Does that mean they are also one flesh? Wouldn't that then open up the same sort of thing to anyone that comes under my care or leadership?But a child is eventually going to be independent of his parents, so the picture of cleaving does not include the child in the same sense it is meant for the parents who must depend upon each other. It is about how a family comes into being - which is why divorce is such an abomination to the Lord.

BroRog
Apr 14th 2010, 03:43 PM
One flesh speaks of the care one has for his spouse as though she were part of his own body. If its good for him, then it is good for her and vice versa! And selfishness goes out the window.Yes, I certainly agree with this.

ClayInHisHands
Apr 14th 2010, 03:49 PM
I see how VerticalReality you draw this conclusion and it could have that meaning per se, because if when a man and woman become one flesh refers to having children....what about those who are unable to have children....are they not one flesh still or will they never be one flesh?

BroRog
Apr 14th 2010, 03:51 PM
"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For the two, He says, “shall become one flesh." - 1 Cor 6:15

The fundamental sin of sleeping with a harlot is deception, fraud, lies. When I married my wife and we slept together, in a physical way I promised to treat her as if she was part of me. Our physical act symbolized my commitment to her that I would treat her as both of us were as one flesh. I would love her, care for her, provide for her, comfort her, listen to her and respect her. With a harlot, while my body is saying all these things, my mind and my true intent are the opposite. If I were to visit a harlot (heaven forbid) I would be guilty of fraud and deception.

percho
Apr 14th 2010, 03:56 PM
Certainly the fruit of the sexual union is the child but the one flesh union between the man and the woman is one of 'cleaving'. That speaks of being joined fast to - of abiding as one unit.

Gen 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

H1692. dabaq, daw-bak'; a prim. root; prop. to impinge, i.e. cling or adhere; fig. to catch by pursuit:--abide, fast, cleave (fast together), follow close (hard, after), be joined (together), keep (fast), overtake, pursue hard, stick, take.

Eph 5:29 - For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Eph 5:30 - For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Eph 5:31 - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

One flesh speaks of the care one has for his spouse as though she were part of his own body. If its good for him, then it is good for her and vice versa! And selfishness goes out the window.

What is the fruit of the union between Christ and the church?

inn
Apr 14th 2010, 06:01 PM
I personaly don't believe it means a child, as NOT every one who joins in union with her husband, may not concieve, or go full term and deliver a little blessing, so if one believes that one flesh is a baby, then many who are without child(as in Is54), but are married, are not one flesh?

VerticalReality
Apr 14th 2010, 06:36 PM
The fundamental sin of sleeping with a harlot is deception, fraud, lies. When I married my wife and we slept together, in a physical way I promised to treat her as if she was part of me. Our physical act symbolized my commitment to her that I would treat her as both of us were as one flesh. I would love her, care for her, provide for her, comfort her, listen to her and respect her. With a harlot, while my body is saying all these things, my mind and my true intent are the opposite. If I were to visit a harlot (heaven forbid) I would be guilty of fraud and deception.

However, Paul does not state that becoming "one flesh" with the harlot is fraudulent. His language declares that having sexual relations with a harlot does, in fact, make a man "one flesh" with her.

This passage is another reason why I believe referring to "one flesh" as only "cleaving" is not fully indicative of what this truly means. It could definitely be a part of it maybe . . . but not all of it in my opinion.

VerticalReality
Apr 14th 2010, 06:38 PM
I personaly don't believe it means a child, as NOT every one who joins in union with her husband, may not concieve, or go full term and deliver a little blessing, so if one believes that one flesh is a baby, then many who are without child(as in Is54), but are married, are not one flesh?

Isn't this the reason, though, that Jews under the law would many times leave their wife if she could not bring forth children? It's been a while since I studied it, but it seems like I remember this.

BroRog
Apr 14th 2010, 06:42 PM
However, Paul does not state that becoming "one flesh" with the harlot is fraudulent. His language declares that having sexual relations with a harlot does, in fact, make a man "one flesh" with her.

This passage is another reason why I believe referring to "one flesh" as only "cleaving" is not fully indicative of what this truly means. It could definitely be a part of it maybe . . . but not all of it in my opinion.But isn't the metaphor focused on the commitment we make with regard to our spouse rather than the actual joining of two bodies? I mean, yea, a man physically joins with a woman for a short period of time during the act, but I don't think this is the point do you?

jayne
Apr 14th 2010, 06:52 PM
Isn't this the reason, though, that Jews under the law would many times leave their wife if she could not bring forth children? It's been a while since I studied it, but it seems like I remember this.

There is not a Levitical law or any other Biblical law that states that man could or can leave his wife if she couldn't have a baby. I'm sure that men did anyway. Moses had to allow for divorce because of the hardness of the hearts of husbands. Jesus said that when he was talking about divorce. But God never issues that decree in His Law.

I just don't see child-bearing as a part of making a couple one-flesh.

What about couples who can't even have sex? Disabled people who are married. They are still one flesh. So are older couples who marry - say a man in his 60's and a woman in her 50's. She can't have children. What about a man who is sterile? He is still one flesh with his wife.

I think that there are a lot of things that constitute one flesh, but I am kinda "out" on the baby thing.

VerticalReality
Apr 14th 2010, 10:29 PM
There is not a Levitical law or any other Biblical law that states that man could or can leave his wife if she couldn't have a baby. I'm sure that men did anyway. Moses had to allow for divorce because of the hardness of the hearts of husbands. Jesus said that when he was talking about divorce. But God never issues that decree in His Law.

I wasn't trying to suggest that there was a Levitical law that allowed a man to leave his wife if she couldn't bear children. I was only stating that these Jews who lived under the law would leave their wife if she couldn't bear children, and I'm starting the think the reason they did this was because they could not become "one flesh" with them.


I just don't see child-bearing as a part of making a couple one-flesh.

And why not?


What about couples who can't even have sex?

What about them?


Disabled people who are married. They are still one flesh.

Are they?


So are older couples who marry - say a man in his 60's and a woman in her 50's. She can't have children. What about a man who is sterile? He is still one flesh with his wife.

If becoming "one flesh" means to have a child together then no, they would not be "one flesh." That's not saying they aren't really considered husband and wife, but it is saying that they are not able to become "one flesh."


I think that there are a lot of things that constitute one flesh, but I am kinda "out" on the baby thing.

So, what do you think it is, and what scripture do you use to support it?

VerticalReality
Apr 14th 2010, 10:31 PM
But isn't the metaphor focused on the commitment we make with regard to our spouse rather than the actual joining of two bodies? I mean, yea, a man physically joins with a woman for a short period of time during the act, but I don't think this is the point do you?

Paul seemed to make that point quite clearly. He very blatantly suggests that a man joining himself sexually with a harlot is becoming one flesh with her. How could this be so according to the view being suggested by some?

BroRog
Apr 14th 2010, 11:15 PM
Paul seemed to make that point quite clearly. He very blatantly suggests that a man joining himself sexually with a harlot is becoming one flesh with her. How could this be so according to the view being suggested by some?As I read it, he says that a man is joining his members with a harlot, but reminds him of his commitment to Christ. He is being very clever in his wording I think. His reasoning seems to go like this: a) you are joined to Christ, b) you are a member of Christ's body, c) why would a member of Christ's body, a discple dedicated to purity, join his members to the members of a harlot? d) after all, the two shall become one flesh. That is, when the disciple joined himself to Christ, he made a commitment to purity. Why then would he join up with a harlot? If he does, then his commitment to Christ is ambiguous. Either he was serious and sincere when he joined up with Christ, or he was serious and sincere when he joined up with the harlot. If he has sex with a harlot, he either lied to Christ or he lied to the harlot, or both.

I don't think that becoming one flesh means that they became one body in some mystical sence. It's a metaphor for their union and covenant commitment with each other. Did I understand your question?

VerticalReality
Apr 15th 2010, 12:07 AM
I don't think that becoming one flesh means that they became one body in some mystical sence. It's a metaphor for their union and covenant commitment with each other. Did I understand your question?

I'm not sure I understand your statement. Are you stating that if a man has sex with a harlot he is making a covenant commitment to her and making her his wife? I don't really gather that from 1 Corinthians 6. This chapter seems more directed toward sexual immorality than a covenant relationship.

BroRog
Apr 15th 2010, 04:17 PM
I'm not sure I understand your statement. Are you stating that if a man has sex with a harlot he is making a covenant commitment to her and making her his wife? I don't really gather that from 1 Corinthians 6. This chapter seems more directed toward sexual immorality than a covenant relationship.I'm saying that when a man has sex with a woman, he non-verbally communicates a commitment to a form of intimacy reserved only for those who are married with his body. It's like sign language. When a man exposes his genitalia to a woman in the course of an intimate love making session, he is sending a message to the woman. With his body he is saying, "I only share my most intimate self with a woman that I can trust. I grant you my most sacred trust and I promise to remain faithful and trustworthy for you." If a man has sex with a harlot, what he says non-verbally with his body is a lie. He has no intention of making a covenant commitment with her. He has no intention of keeping her trust. He exposed her nakedness under false pretenses.

inn
Apr 15th 2010, 04:57 PM
Isn't this the reason, though, that Jews under the law would many times leave their wife if she could not bring forth children? It's been a while since I studied it, but it seems like I remember this.

Your question in the O.P. was;
However, I was wondering if anyone has ever considered the possibility that becoming "one flesh" means a man and woman coming together and creating children together . . .
Comming together it means yes, but,
No it doesn't mean creating children.

newinchrist4now
Apr 15th 2010, 10:50 PM
I was just wondering if others have ever thought about this possibility regarding a man and woman becoming "one flesh."

Often times I hear two very opposite points of view when it comes to this topic. On one hand you have folks who really get hyper-spiritual when it comes to this. They speak as if becoming "one flesh" is something that happens spiritually.

On the other side you have those who believe that becoming "one flesh" is simply the act of having a sexual relationship.

However, I was wondering if anyone has ever considered the possibility that becoming "one flesh" means a man and woman coming together and creating children together . . .

Thoughts?

No, I can't have children so with that thought your saying me and my wife are not one flesh. I believe it goes beyond sex and popping out a kid, as we seen anyone can do that. Becoming one flesh means that we become of one mind in all areas.

Zack702
Apr 16th 2010, 02:28 AM
I was just wondering if others have ever thought about this possibility regarding a man and woman becoming "one flesh."

Often times I hear two very opposite points of view when it comes to this topic. On one hand you have folks who really get hyper-spiritual when it comes to this. They speak as if becoming "one flesh" is something that happens spiritually.

On the other side you have those who believe that becoming "one flesh" is simply the act of having a sexual relationship.

However, I was wondering if anyone has ever considered the possibility that becoming "one flesh" means a man and woman coming together and creating children together . . .

Thoughts?

Genesis 2:24
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Note that Adam said this.

Also it says... they shall BE one flesh.

Ironicly the newer versions of the bible says they shall "become" one flesh.
In this instance I am more inclined to think it could mean a child.
Funny how such a small change can make a difference in the meaning.

Since it says they shall be one flesh. I think it means more about the two becoming a whole. Focusing effort to areas which benefit the whole rather than the individual.

If one of them says "well were not producing children. I'm out of here". I don't really think they are be'ing one flesh. Unless of course they both agree.

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2010, 04:16 AM
I'm saying that when a man has sex with a woman, he non-verbally communicates a commitment to a form of intimacy reserved only for those who are married with his body. It's like sign language. When a man exposes his genitalia to a woman in the course of an intimate love making session, he is sending a message to the woman. With his body he is saying, "I only share my most intimate self with a woman that I can trust. I grant you my most sacred trust and I promise to remain faithful and trustworthy for you." If a man has sex with a harlot, what he says non-verbally with his body is a lie. He has no intention of making a covenant commitment with her. He has no intention of keeping her trust. He exposed her nakedness under false pretenses.

I'm not really sure how much this really matters, but Paul is still referring to them as "one flesh," and this is not a false "one flesh." They really are becoming one.

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2010, 04:18 AM
No, I can't have children so with that thought your saying me and my wife are not one flesh. I believe it goes beyond sex and popping out a kid, as we seen anyone can do that. Becoming one flesh means that we become of one mind in all areas.

But again, what scripture are you using to come up with this doctrine? The scriptures do not say that husband and wife are becoming "one mind in all areas." The scriptures state they are becoming "one flesh."

Are you stating that the man and the harlot in 1 Corinthians 6 are becoming "one mind in all areas?" These sort of doctrines just do not jive with scripture.

BroRog
Apr 16th 2010, 05:07 AM
I'm not really sure how much this really matters, but Paul is still referring to them as "one flesh," and this is not a false "one flesh." They really are becoming one.

When Genesis speaks about becoming "one flesh" I don't think it is speaking literally. The expression is a metaphor intended to convey the fact that the two have become a family. When you read "flesh" think "family". When a man marries a woman, they become a single family as if they were born from the same parents, but not literally. When a man takes a wife, the wife is treated as if she is part of the family into which she married. She takes his name; she and her children inherit his land and wealth.

I don't think Paul is saying that the man is becoming one flesh with the harlot. He says that they join members, but this isn't becoming one flesh. When a man joins with a harlot, he has no intention of caring for her, or joining her to his family. He is perpetrating a fraud. They join members without any intention of becoming one flesh, i.e. a family.

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2010, 06:12 PM
When Genesis speaks about becoming "one flesh" I don't think it is speaking literally. The expression is a metaphor intended to convey the fact that the two have become a family. When you read "flesh" think "family". When a man marries a woman, they become a single family as if they were born from the same parents, but not literally. When a man takes a wife, the wife is treated as if she is part of the family into which she married. She takes his name; she and her children inherit his land and wealth.

I would not disagree that becoming "one flesh" means to become a family. However, I believe this pretty much supports the inclusion of children.


I don't think Paul is saying that the man is becoming one flesh with the harlot.

I don't understand how you can say that you don't think Paul is saying that the man is becoming one flesh with the harlot when that is exactly what the passage says.

1 Corinthians 6:16
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”

BroRog
Apr 16th 2010, 06:39 PM
I would not disagree that becoming "one flesh" means to become a family. However, I believe this pretty much supports the inclusion of children.



I don't understand how you can say that you don't think Paul is saying that the man is becoming one flesh with the harlot when that is exactly what the passage says.

1 Corinthians 6:16
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”Are you taking him literally? I thought the phrase "become one flesh" was figurative language which speaks about becoming a family. If that is the case, I don't see how Paul is suggesting that a man who has sex with a harlot is trying to invite her into his family.

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2010, 09:04 PM
Are you taking him literally?

That's the point of the thread. Why not take him literally? If becoming "one flesh" means to have a child (interestingly enough, this child's flesh will bear resemblance to both the mother and father) with someone then a man could definitely and literally become "one flesh" with a harlot. Scripture does not declare that becoming "one flesh" with someone can only happen within the marriage covenant. That is just the ideal scenario and the one God intended. Like everything else, the devil will certainly try and pervert it.


I thought the phrase "become one flesh" was figurative language which speaks about becoming a family. If that is the case, I don't see how Paul is suggesting that a man who has sex with a harlot is trying to invite her into his family.

If becoming "one flesh" is to have a child together, and this, in the sense you are speaking, is becoming a family . . . then I can definitely see why a man joining himself to a harlot could be such a disasterous issue.

BroRog
Apr 16th 2010, 09:34 PM
That's the point of the thread. Why not take him literally? If becoming "one flesh" means to have a child (interestingly enough, this child's flesh will bear resemblance to both the mother and father) with someone then a man could definitely and literally become "one flesh" with a harlot. Scripture does not declare that becoming "one flesh" with someone can only happen within the marriage covenant. That is just the ideal scenario and the one God intended. Like everything else, the devil will certainly try and pervert it.



If becoming "one flesh" is to have a child together, and this, in the sense you are speaking, is becoming a family . . . then I can definitely see why a man joining himself to a harlot could be such a disasterous issue.I see your point, but how did you get this idea from the Genesis account in which the context concerns the provision of a suitable helper for Adam taken from his own body?

TrustingFollower
Apr 16th 2010, 09:56 PM
Becoming one flesh has nothing to do with having children. Many couples both in the old covenant days and in these new covenant day can not have children. These couples are indeed married in the eyes of God as they have become one flesh. Now to understand one flesh we have to understand the act of becoming one flesh. When the man and the woman come together where does the man stop and the woman begin or where does the woman stop and the man begin in the physical sense? The exact point can not be defined because of the way they are joined. They are one flesh at the time the act is being completed, one flows right into the other.

Now if we look at this from a spiritual sense. When we are born again and are imparted with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit. Where does our spirit stop and the Holy Spirit start or the Holy Spirit stop and our spirit start? This too can not be defined because they are so close that no line can be drawn. Man and woman becoming one flesh is the model of what we are to become with God. We as the bride submit to God in order for the union to work, just like the wife has to submit to the husband in order to become one flesh physically for the union to work. The physical is the example or model of what we are in the spiritual.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2010, 01:37 AM
I see your point, but how did you get this idea from the Genesis account in which the context concerns the provision of a suitable helper for Adam taken from his own body?

I wasn't really only getting this from the Genesis account. My issue with this initially arose from the fact that everyone seems to always want to spiritualize a man and woman becoming "one flesh" when in reality if someone really thinks about a spiritual point of view here really doesn't make much sense.

In my mind, the only possible argument that makes sense outside of "one flesh" meaning procreating is the argument that the woman is coming under the leadership of the man thus making "one flesh" allegorical in meaning. However, I still find this view to be lacking when thinking of the level with which the man and woman are joined.

I think the view of procreation makes more sense, especially when considering how important it is to heed, "What God has joined together let not man separate."

TrustingFollower
Apr 17th 2010, 01:46 AM
I think the view of procreation makes more sense, especially when considering how important it is to heed, "What God has joined together let not man separate."

So if it about procreating then what it is saying is that no man should tear his kid apart. See this makes no sence, as no God fearing man would tear his kid apart to seperate it into peices. No man would be able to seperate the parts if it were about procreating.

BroRog
Apr 17th 2010, 01:51 AM
I wasn't really only getting this from the Genesis account. My issue with this initially arose from the fact that everyone seems to always want to spiritualize a man and woman becoming "one flesh" when in reality if someone really thinks about a spiritual point of view here really doesn't make much sense.

In my mind, the only possible argument that makes sense outside of "one flesh" meaning procreating is the argument that the woman is coming under the leadership of the man thus making "one flesh" allegorical in meaning. However, I still find this view to be lacking when thinking of the level with which the man and woman are joined.

I think the view of procreation makes more sense, especially when considering how important it is to heed, "What God has joined together let not man separate."Your instincts are good in my opinion. In Genesis account, where the saying first originated, it was literally true that Eve was of "one flesh" of Adam, since she came out of his rib. But since my wife didn't come from my rib cage, how am I supposed to understand this expression in my case? I think that is where the figurative sense comes from. What do you think?

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2010, 01:53 AM
Becoming one flesh has nothing to do with having children.

This is less than convincing . . .


Many couples both in the old covenant days and in these new covenant day can not have children. These couples are indeed married in the eyes of God as they have become one flesh.

Can you now point out in scripture where it states that in order to be considered husband and wife in the eyes of God you have to be "one flesh?" It seems you are making assumptions and presenting them as fact where the scriptures do nothing of the sort. The scriptures do not declare that becoming "one flesh" means you are now married in the eyes of God. In fact, the scriptures bear out that two people can become "one flesh" and not be married, so again, your argument is less than convincing.


Now to understand one flesh we have to understand the act of becoming one flesh. When the man and the woman come together where does the man stop and the woman begin or where does the woman stop and the man begin in the physical sense? The exact point can not be defined because of the way they are joined. They are one flesh at the time the act is being completed, one flows right into the other.

Again, this is assumption based upon what a person is taught. The scriptures do not define such a thing as stated above.


Now if we look at this from a spiritual sense. When we are born again and are imparted with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit. Where does our spirit stop and the Holy Spirit start or the Holy Spirit stop and our spirit start? This too can not be defined because they are so close that no line can be drawn.

What I think you are doing here is supporting the procreation point of view. When a person is born again they are born of a new seed . . . God's seed. The physical shadow of this event is that which is born of the flesh as Jesus pointed out when He said that which is born of flesh is flesh but that which is born of spirit is spirit. The physical birth is the shadow of the spiritual birth. As Paul points out, a new creation is born. This new creation bears an image that is one with God. We are then His offspring. Refer to 1 John 3:9.


Man and woman becoming one flesh is the model of what we are to become with God.

That's because when a man and woman come together a seed brings forth a birth just like we see in its spiritual fulfillment. Remember what God said to Eve? There are two seeds . . . one that is God's and the other that is of the enemy. Being born of the flesh we are under the leading of the spirit of this world. We must be born of a new seed to be considered this new creation.


We as the bride submit to God in order for the union to work, just like the wife has to submit to the husband in order to become one flesh physically for the union to work.

We, individually, are not the bride. The church as a whole is the bride. We, individually, are the the product of God's holy seed.

People seem to be really quick to write this off without really strongly considering it.

TrustingFollower
Apr 17th 2010, 03:34 AM
Can you now point out in scripture where it states that in order to be considered husband and wife in the eyes of God you have to be "one flesh?" It seems you are making assumptions and presenting them as fact where the scriptures do nothing of the sort. The scriptures do not declare that becoming "one flesh" means you are now married in the eyes of God. In fact, the scriptures bear out that two people can become "one flesh" and not be married, so again, your argument is less than convincing.
Was Sarah Abraham's wife before God opened her womb for the birth of Issac? Was Rachel Jacob's wife before her womb was opened by God? Here are two very early examples of them becoming one flesh before any procreation took place. Also look at Jacob, he became the husband to Leah because they had relations becoming one flesh when he thought he was getting Rachel. They were one flesh and married in the eyes of God.


Again, this is assumption based upon what a person is taught. The scriptures do not define such a thing as stated above.
Scripture does not have to define the point, scripture states that the two become one flesh at this time. Can any person on this Earth define the exact point where the man stops and the woman starts when they have relations? If the point is definable please share the knowledge with us.


What I think you are doing here is supporting the procreation point of view. When a person is born again they are born of a new seed . . . God's seed. The physical shadow of this event is that which is born of the flesh as Jesus pointed out when He said that which is born of flesh is flesh but that which is born of spirit is spirit. The physical birth is the shadow of the spiritual birth. As Paul points out, a new creation is born. This new creation bears an image that is one with God. We are then His offspring. Refer to 1 John 3:9.
No I am not supporting the procreation view point. When we are born again we do not cease to exist. The Holy Spirit joins our spirit and we become a new creation, but we do not cease to exist. We see in 1 Corinthians 6 that we are the temple of God. Paul does not say that God removed who we are, but rather that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you.


That's because when a man and woman come together a seed brings forth a birth just like we see in its spiritual fulfillment. Remember what God said to Eve? There are two seeds . . . one that is God's and the other that is of the enemy. Being born of the flesh we are under the leading of the spirit of this world. We must be born of a new seed to be considered this new creation.
Again 1 Corinthian 6 is relevant here, we join together with the Lord to become one with Him.

1 Corinthians 6

17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.



We, individually, are not the bride. The church as a whole is the bride. We, individually, are the the product of God's holy seed.

People seem to be really quick to write this off without really strongly considering it.
We individually make up the parts of the entire body, corporately the individuals make up the whole bride. There can not be a whole without the parts. The parts take their lead from the head which is Christ.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2010, 04:16 AM
Was Sarah Abraham's wife before God opened her womb for the birth of Issac? Was Rachel Jacob's wife before her womb was opened by God? Here are two very early examples of them becoming one flesh before any procreation took place. Also look at Jacob, he became the husband to Leah because they had relations becoming one flesh when he thought he was getting Rachel. They were one flesh and married in the eyes of God.

Actually, no . . .

The scriptures do not say they were "one flesh" before giving birth. You're simply assuming that "one flesh" is synonomous with marriage. The scriptures declare that it is not. Are you seriously declaring that the man and the harlot in 1 Corinthians 6 were made husband and wife through their sexual relations?


Scripture does not have to define the point, scripture states that the two become one flesh at this time.

Where does scripture declare this?


Can any person on this Earth define the exact point where the man stops and the woman starts when they have relations? If the point is definable please share the knowledge with us.

This really makes no sense. Just because I have sexual relations with a woman does not now mean I have some cosmic fusion of my body with hers and I no longer have some mystical beginning or end. This is the exact allegorical cliff-jumping that I'm talking about.


No I am not supporting the procreation view point. When we are born again we do not cease to exist. The Holy Spirit joins our spirit and we become a new creation, but we do not cease to exist. We see in 1 Corinthians 6 that we are the temple of God. Paul does not say that God removed who we are, but rather that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you.

I'm really not following you at all here. Does the word not say that we are born of God's seed when we are born again? Does the word not say that that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit? It is the physical birth that is the shadow of the spiritual birth. Scripture very clearly declares this. A physical seed brings forth a birth of flesh and God's seed brings forth a birth of the spirit.


Again 1 Corinthian 6 is relevant here, we join together with the Lord to become one with Him.

Are you denying that we are born of God's seed? Are you also denying that that which if born of the flesh is from a seed as well?


We individually make up the parts of the entire body, corporately the individuals make up the whole bride. There can not be a whole without the parts. The parts take their lead from the head which is Christ.

Are you intentionally refusing to address my point? Are we or are we not born of God's seed? Physically speaking are we or are we not born of a physical seed?

Scripturally speaking, is not that which is born of the flesh a type and shadow of that which is born of the spirit? Both are coming from seeds

Please address the points being made. Do you deny that people can become "one flesh" without being husband and wife? Do you deny that nowhere in the scriptures does it declare that people cannot be husband and wife without also being "one flesh?"

I mean, the argument against your doctrine here is quite overwhelming. The scriptures make it quite clear that being "one flesh" is NOT synonomous with being husband and wife.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2010, 04:30 AM
I will also write an addendum . . .

If becoming "one flesh" is as simple as just having sex, and this "one flesh" also means that the man and woman are husband and wife, then there is no such thing as a good portion of what we call sexual immorality.

Gillian
Apr 17th 2010, 06:00 AM
Hello

man and woman become one flesh....in context of that verse as male and female bodies inside and outside fulfillment by the way of true relationship marriage, in marriage, like mind, influenced, sexual nature bodies are created for male female, produce child from both.


depending on context of many verses, two become one alway do with influenced good or bad. as Paul warned sleep with harlot you both become one, warning of influence danger. in sleeping with, immdenlty effect of one sin just like harlot the sinner.

all verses include man female marriage are largely influence and effect good or bad, losing your godly way.


what you saying are far limited to one meaning and appealing one meaning to many different points.
bible in use male female as one flesh use couple points reflect to sex nature, produce, marriage, influence etc

many other verses without male female bodies specific reflect, like what Paul wrote and two or three there I am among them, churches as one etc showed you can take more then one meaning from that verse two become one flesh alone.

Adam and Eve was married by God without all latter rituals routines since it the first ever blessing by God, following marriages by blessing of whoever minster priests original as respect of God blessing.

really I think all of your costantly views right. but marriage are upheld as exmaple in THAT verse spefically but not limited to that meaning. marriage held as main exmaple begin most visible exmpale. Bride, Church, Union, all that. big commuiment walking with God. widen your scope!

Gillian

threebigrocks
Apr 17th 2010, 03:34 PM
I have shared only a portion of Ephesians 5:22-33 below, but really the whole section of scripture paints the picture. Verse 32 is the focus.


28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,

30because we are members of His body.

31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.

32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. John 17:22-26 below, although the whole chapter applies:


22"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

24"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

25"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;

26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them." John 14


16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

18"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

19"After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.

20"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

21"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." Becoming one is more than the physical. Guys, the physical reflection of the spiritual is a no brainer. It's the intimate act between a husband and a wife. It's an act to show what they have promised to each other, what is already in their heart.

Marriage, and how it represents Christ and the church as it says in John 17, is a mystery. John 17 and the description of marriage, the roles of husband and wife, are a physical representation of the relationship between Christ and the church. It says it plainly.

So, what other verses in scripture support that clear statement? John 14 for starters, may they be One Father as you and I are one, glorifying each other. Man and wife become one, bringing glory to each other.

The whole rib thing? Look at the trinity. Look at how the parts together, the wife representing the church, joined by joint and ligament, the eye cannot decide to do what it wants and say to the rest of the body it doesn't need it. Yet if we gouge out our eye the eye ceases to be functional. In marriage that's how it is. They are one, in total unity, harmony, as a testimony to Christ, the Father and the bride who is the church.

It's not being hyper spiritual, it's the mystery of marriage as scripture tells us it is. Marriage is a representation of Christ and the church. They mystery is great, but it is true.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2010, 03:53 PM
It's not being hyper spiritual, it's the mystery of marriage as scripture tells us it is. Marriage is a representation of Christ and the church. They mystery is great, but it is true.

Yes, this view is hyper-spiritual. Can you honestly say that anything you stated above applies to the man joining himself with a harlot? Yet, the scriptures still declare they are becoming "one flesh."

Becoming "one flesh" is not some hyper-spiritual union of husband and wife. I understand this is the view that a ton of people have been taught to believe, but nowhere in scripture does such doctrine exist.

Zack702
Apr 17th 2010, 10:56 PM
Yes, this view is hyper-spiritual. Can you honestly say that anything you stated above applies to the man joining himself with a harlot? Yet, the scriptures still declare they are becoming "one flesh."

Becoming "one flesh" is not some hyper-spiritual union of husband and wife. I understand this is the view that a ton of people have been taught to believe, but nowhere in scripture does such doctrine exist.

If you sleep with a adulterous person then you yourself have become adulterous right?

Maybe this discussion is over my head.

Was Paul saying that if you sleep with a harlot then your having children with the harlot?

Or was Paul saying that if you sleep with a harlot your becoming like the harlot in being adulterous?
To the point of setting a example for others and not for the individual sake.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2010, 11:31 PM
If you sleep with a adulterous person then you yourself have become adulterous right?

Maybe this discussion is over my head.

Was Paul saying that if you sleep with a harlot then your having children with the harlot?

Or was Paul saying that if you sleep with a harlot your becoming like the harlot in being adulterous?
To the point of setting a example for others and not for the individual sake.

A person could or could not become an adulterous by sleeping with a harlot. I believe what Paul is saying is that if you sleep with a harlot then the holy seed is being mixed with the unholy seed just as the Israelites did in Ezra 9 and 10. In Ezra 9 and 10 the Israelites took for themselves pagan wives, and the word says they mixed the holy seed with an unholy seed. In other words, they became "one flesh" with those who were not of God, and they brought forth an offspring that was not what God wanted.

The same is true if a believer joins himself with a harlot. He is mixing the holy seed of God with an unholy seed.

threebigrocks
Apr 18th 2010, 01:03 AM
Yes, this view is hyper-spiritual. Can you honestly say that anything you stated above applies to the man joining himself with a harlot? Yet, the scriptures still declare they are becoming "one flesh."

Becoming "one flesh" is not some hyper-spiritual union of husband and wife. I understand this is the view that a ton of people have been taught to believe, but nowhere in scripture does such doctrine exist.

Yes, it does apply joining a man with a harlot. We can "cheat" on God, correct? Side up with the world, look like the world, act and talk like the word. It may not be in bed with satan so to speak, but we know that those who are not for Him are against Him. What do we worship? Our stuff, our money, our children? That's being a harlot, when we put the effort we should place on Christ into things of this world. We must forsake all others until death to our spouses. We must also forsake all, including spouses, children, parents, brothers and sisters if they should reject us because of Him. If we choose family over God - that's entertaining the harlot.

It's not hyper spiritual. It says it right there in scripture, plain as the nose on your face. You can take it for what it is, search the answers in the whole of scripture, or reject it. Up to you. But that's what it says:

Ephesians 5
Marriage Like Christ and the Church
22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,

30because we are members of His body.

31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.

32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.


Verse 32 speaks of of all that has preceded in the previous verses, especially verse 31.

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 01:28 AM
It's not hyper spiritual. It says it right there in scripture, plain as the nose on your face. You can take it for what it is, search the answers in the whole of scripture, or reject it. Up to you. But that's what it says:

It says nothing of the sort. Your interpretation of what it means to become "one flesh" is nowhere in Ephesians 5.

In fact, what you're doing is exactly what I described earlier in this thread. You are making husband and wife "one spirit" rather than "one flesh." That is the very defintion of hyper-spiritualization. You are attempting to make the relationship between husband and wife equal to the relationship between Christ and His church when the reality is that the husband/wife relationship is a SHADOW of the spiritual fulfillment.

The same would be to compare other shadows to the fulfillment. The physical temple, for example, served as a shadow of the spiritual . . . but it was the physical representation; not the spiritual representation. You are attempting to make the husband/wife relationship into something it is not.

Could you please answer the questions that TrustingFollower refused to address? Are we or are we not born of God's seed? Is this or this not what Jesus talked about when He said that which if born of spirit is spirit? What else did Jesus say? Did He also not say that that which is born of flesh is flesh? Should we hyper-spiritualize His words too and make the birth of the flesh equal to the birth of the spirit? They are simply not the same. They are very different, and one is just a shadow of the other.

threebigrocks
Apr 18th 2010, 02:46 PM
28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,

30because we are members of His body.

31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.

32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

For the reason that a husband loves his wife's flesh as his own flesh just as Christ does the church, a man leaves those who made his flesh and is joined to his wife and the two become one flesh. They are seen as one body when they come together as married, they become joined as one flesh. It is love that causes this relationship between husband (who is commanded to) and wife and Christ (who so loved the world while we were yet sinners) and the church.

What then, if you disagree, is the mystery?


Are we or are we not born of God's seed? Is this or this not what Jesus talked about when He said that which if born of spirit is spirit? What else did Jesus say? Did He also not say that that which is born of flesh is flesh? Should we hyper-spiritualize His words too and make the birth of the flesh equal to the birth of the spirit? They are simply not the same. They are very different, and one is just a shadow of the other.

The physical is a REFLECTION when we are speaking of the spirit. The LAW is a shadow. Maybe this is where we aren't quite seeing things eye to eye. :hmm: Because we have the Spirit in us when we are born again of the Spirit, dwelling in our flesh, we can show a reflection, be an example, in the physical realm.

Luke 11
33"No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light.

34"The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.

Our physical bodies do reflect. We do not shadow, because God cannot be shadowed. We are to be full of light, letting others see that light. We reflect, we shine, we let God be seen, manifest in our bodies in action, thought and deed.

TrustingFollower
Apr 18th 2010, 03:09 PM
Actually, no . . .

The scriptures do not say they were "one flesh" before giving birth. You're simply assuming that "one flesh" is synonomous with marriage. The scriptures declare that it is not. Are you seriously declaring that the man and the harlot in 1 Corinthians 6 were made husband and wife through their sexual relations?
In the garden of Eden it was declared that the man shall leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife and they shall become on flesh.

Genesis 2

24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Now this was before the fall and before they sinned. Notice that when they sinned even God said they were husband and wife. Joined together as was stated in verse 24 by God Himself referring to Eve as Adam's wife.

Genesis 3

8 ÂThey heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

Genesis 3

16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, `You shall not eat from it┤; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

Genesis 3

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

This all happened before Adam and Eve had any children.

Genesis 4

1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD."
2 Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

So your theory that they had to produce children before they were considered joined just does not line up with what God declared in the scripture before any children were even born to any of God creation.


Where does scripture declare this?

1 Corinthians 6

16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."

Notice that this does not say they had a child and were considered joined. It says they joined together in the act of sex and became one flesh.


This really makes no sense. Just because I have sexual relations with a woman does not now mean I have some cosmic fusion of my body with hers and I no longer have some mystical beginning or end. This is the exact allegorical cliff-jumping that I'm talking about.

You are hyper-spiritualizing things here. I did not say it was some cosmic affect at all, It is a logicical thing purely physical. Where does the man stop and the woman start when they are joined together in the physical act? The exact point can not be defined because they are together in a way that has not exact point of transistion.


I'm really not following you at all here. Does the word not say that we are born of God's seed when we are born again? Does the word not say that that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit? It is the physical birth that is the shadow of the spiritual birth. Scripture very clearly declares this. A physical seed brings forth a birth of flesh and God's seed brings forth a birth of the spirit.



Are you denying that we are born of God's seed? Are you also denying that that which if born of the flesh is from a seed as well?



Are you intentionally refusing to address my point? Are we or are we not born of God's seed? Physically speaking are we or are we not born of a physical seed?

Scripturally speaking, is not that which is born of the flesh a type and shadow of that which is born of the spirit? Both are coming from seeds
I never said that what is born of the physical is not physical nor that what is born of the spiritual in not spiritual. I said that the joining of the two has nothing to do with seed as you are claiming in this thread. You seem to imply that the production of an offspring is the only way for the joining to be valid.


Please address the points being made. Do you deny that people can become "one flesh" without being husband and wife? Do you deny that nowhere in the scriptures does it declare that people cannot be husband and wife without also being "one flesh?"

I mean, the argument against your doctrine here is quite overwhelming. The scriptures make it quite clear that being "one flesh" is NOT synonomous with being husband and wife.
Scripture overwheling supports the case that when a man and a woman have relations and become one flesh then in the eyes of God they become married also. Have a read of Genesis and see all the cases of how they became married when as the bible states he went into her and she became his wife. Frankly your argument lacks support from the bible and is covered with blanket statement like "nowhere in scripture". Yet you still have not provided scripture to back up your claim that children must be produced for tow people to be considered joined. Whereas the scriptures, I and others have shared, show that two are considered joined regardless of the production of children.

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 04:58 PM
Yet you still have not provided scripture to back up your claim that children must be produced for tow people to be considered joined. Whereas the scriptures, I and others have shared, show that two are considered joined regardless of the production of children.

Can we be one with God without a birth? Can we be one with Him without His seed?

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 05:06 PM
What then, if you disagree, is the mystery?

I have explained the mystery. The mystery is how the seed of God goes into the heart of one willing to receive it. A birth then takes place; the birth of the new man . . . the spirit man. We are then made one with Him who gave us His seed. The same is true for the physical "reflection," as you call it. A man leaves his father and mother and is joined with His wife. She comes under his authority and gives herself completely to him. She surrenders herself sexually to him and receives his seed, and the two become one flesh. What the scriptures are giving us is a picture of two coming together to start a family just as we receive Christ and become part of His family. Our Lord gives us a picture of the spiritual birth through the physical. He gives us a physical example of how His seed joins and conceives in the heart of man and produces an offspring making us one with Him.

divaD
Apr 18th 2010, 06:40 PM
However, Paul does not state that becoming "one flesh" with the harlot is fraudulent. His language declares that having sexual relations with a harlot does, in fact, make a man "one flesh" with her.


Let's go with this for a moment then. If the act has already taken place, and they are now considered one flesh, how does one then reverse that? I mean, what if the act only happened one time, and they never saw each other ever again. Does this mean they are still one flesh? And if not, does to be one flesh only apply when a cpl are having sexual relations? And while they're not, since it's highly unlikely a cpl is going to engage in sex 24/7, what about when they're not? Are they not one flesh during that time?

The thing is, we have to apply the same concept to the spiritual meaning found in Ephesians 5.

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

If becoming one flesh only applies to when one is having sexual relations, keeping in mind it's the concept we're comparing to, then how does one explain verse 32? Is this mystery just an on and off thing like having sex is?

Very interesting thread BTW. I haven't read all of it, but I'm getting there I guess.

TrustingFollower
Apr 18th 2010, 06:45 PM
Can we be one with God without a birth? Can we be one with Him without His seed?

You are jumping ahead to far in your assumption. The joining together to become one has to occur first, then the product of the joining can occur. When a man and woman come together they have to be joined first and be one with each other, then they can produce a child. Just like with our spiritual side, we have to first be joined with the Lord before the product of a new creation can occur. Just like the woman has to submit to the man and join with him, then the seed can be passed. The same thing has to happen with us spiritually, we have to submit ourselves to the Lord and be joined with Him then He passes the seed to create the new. The joining in both cases has to occur first for any product of the union to happen.

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 07:10 PM
Let's go with this for a moment then. If the act has already taken place, and they are now considered one flesh, how does one then reverse that? I mean, what if the act only happened one time, and they never saw each other ever again. Does this mean they are still one flesh? And if not, does to be one flesh only apply when a cpl are having sexual relations? And while they're not, since it's highly unlikely a cpl is going to engage in sex 24/7, what about when they're not? Are they not one flesh during that time?

The thing is, we have to apply the same concept to the spiritual meaning found in Ephesians 5.

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

If becoming one flesh only applies to when one is having sexual relations, keeping in mind it's the concept we're comparing to, then how does one explain verse 32? Is this mystery just an on and off thing like having sex is?

Very interesting thread BTW. I haven't read all of it, but I'm getting there I guess.

Very good points! That is exactly what I was saying earlier as well. Becoming "one flesh" is a whole lot more than just having a sexual encounter. Just as God gives His seed so that we can become one with Him, so also does a man give his seed to a woman so that they can become one as well.

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 07:16 PM
You are jumping ahead to far in your assumption. The joining together to become one has to occur first, then the product of the joining can occur. When a man and woman come together they have to be joined first and be one with each other, then they can produce a child. Just like with our spiritual side, we have to first be joined with the Lord before the product of a new creation can occur. Just like the woman has to submit to the man and join with him, then the seed can be passed. The same thing has to happen with us spiritually, we have to submit ourselves to the Lord and be joined with Him then He passes the seed to create the new. The joining in both cases has to occur first for any product of the union to happen.

How can a person be joined with the Lord if they are not born again?

TrustingFollower
Apr 18th 2010, 07:22 PM
How can a person be joined with the Lord if they are not born again?

The question is how can one be born again if not first joined with the Lord?

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 07:24 PM
The question is how can one be born again if not first joined with the Lord?

Where in the word of God does it say that we are joined with the Lord before being born again?

Additionally, what part of us is one with the Lord?

TrustingFollower
Apr 18th 2010, 07:35 PM
Where in the word of God does it say that we are joined with the Lord before being born again?

Additionally, what part of us is one with the Lord?

What comes first the baby or the union? Does our spirit join with the Holy Spirit then we become born again or are we born again then the Holy Spirit joins us? Being born again is the product of the Holy Spirit joining our spirit making us a new creation. We first have to have the joining of our spirit with the Holy Spirit. The products of the two parts make the new product, just like the parts of the two in the physical make up the product i.e. the baby.

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 07:42 PM
What comes first the baby or the union? Does our spirit join with the Holy Spirit then we become born again or are we born again then the Holy Spirit joins us? Being born again is the product of the Holy Spirit joining our spirit making us a new creation. We first have to have the joining of our spirit with the Holy Spirit. The products of the two parts make the new product, just like the parts of the two in the physical make up the product i.e. the baby.

You're not even stating biological truth here.

And you didn't answer my question. What part of us is one with the Lord?

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 07:44 PM
And secondly . . .

It's not the Holy Spirit joining with our spirit that makes us born again. You are forgetting the seed . . .

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 07:53 PM
FYI --

This is how the process works. The seed of God (His word) goes forth into those who willfully receive it. Once the seed (His word) is received, we are then born again allowing His Spirit to be one with ours. This is the new birth, and this is the order in which it happens. We cannot be one with the Lord until AFTER we have received His seed and are born again. This is what allows us to be one with Him in spirit.

TrustingFollower
Apr 18th 2010, 07:57 PM
You're not even stating biological truth here.


What part is not biological truth? Does it take the sperm from the man and the egg from the woman to make a baby? One part from the man and one part from the woman making the product of a baby. That is biological truth and if you can't even admit that then this discussion can just as well be over because it shows you are not even trying to understand any of this but rather just push your own ideas.


And you didn't answer my question. What part of us is one with the Lord?
Our spirit joins the Lord's.

1 Corinthians 6

17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.


And secondly . . .

It's not the Holy Spirit joining with our spirit that makes us born again. You are forgetting the seed . . .

The Holy Spirit is God's seed.

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 08:14 PM
What part is not biological truth? Does it take the sperm from the man and the egg from the woman to make a baby? One part from the man and one part from the woman making the product of a baby. That is biological truth and if you can't even admit that then this discussion can just as well be over because it shows you are not even trying to understand any of this but rather just push your own ideas.

You are free to discontinue the discussion any time you like. Your argument here is not making much sense . . .



Our spirit joins the Lord's.

1 Corinthians 6

17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.


So, are you still insisting that we are born again after we are joined with the Lord? Are you seriously thinking about what you're saying?

You said previously that we are joined with the Lord before we are born again. In other words, what you're saying is that we are joined with the Lord when we are not born again but when we are dead in our trespasses. Does that seriously make sense to you?


The Holy Spirit is God's seed.

Negative. The word is God's seed. We know nothing of His Spirit until we receive His word.

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 08:19 PM
it shows you are not even trying to understand any of this but rather just push your own ideas.

By the way, I could see the same coming from yourself here. It does not appear you have even remotely considered what I've said. It appears you have immediately cast it off as false, and the reality is you just don't appear to understand much of what is being said.

TrustingFollower
Apr 18th 2010, 08:28 PM
By the way, I could see the same coming from yourself here. It does not appear you have even remotely considered what I've said. It appears you have immediately cast it off as false, and the reality is you just don't appear to understand much of what is being said.

I have used scripture to base my case in this thread and you have yet to quote any scripture to present your argument. I have answered every question you have asked, but yet you claim that the product of a union comes before the union takes place. Frankly I feel you are only intrested in debating rather than discussing what the scriptures say about this subject. You start this thread with the outcome already determined and thus I will leave you with your opinion because everything anyone else has presented you have ignored thus far. With this I will bid this thread farewell.

God bless,
TF

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 08:37 PM
I have used scripture to base my case in this thread and you have yet to quote any scripture to present your argument. I have answered every question you have asked, but yet you claim that the product of a union comes before the union takes place. Frankly I feel you are only intrested in debating rather than discussing what the scriptures say about this subject. You start this thread with the outcome already determined and thus I will leave you with your opinion because everything anyone else has presented you have ignored thus far. With this I will bid this thread farewell.

God bless,
TF

I have not given scripture? Everything I've stated is rooted in the word of God. Does the word of God not say that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit? Does the word not say that we are one with Him in spirit? Does the word not say that we are born of God's seed? If you can sit there and honestly say that I have not given scripture to support what I've said, then you are indeed guilty of what you have tried to accuse me of. You have cast off what I have said without even remotely considering it, and then you want to change the subject by making wild claims about me not backing up what I've said with scripture when every single word of what I've said is found in scripture.

If you do not want to continue the conversation then by all means enjoy the rest of your day, but don't accuse me of not providing scripture when every single bit of my posts is rooted in the word of God.

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 08:40 PM
You are free to discontinue the discussion any time you like. Your argument here is not making much sense . . .



So, are you still insisting that we are born again after we are joined with the Lord? Are you seriously thinking about what you're saying?

You said previously that we are joined with the Lord before we are born again. In other words, what you're saying is that we are joined with the Lord when we are not born again but when we are dead in our trespasses. Does that seriously make sense to you?



Negative. The word is God's seed. We know nothing of His Spirit until we receive His word.

By the way, TrustingFollower, you once again ignored everything stated within this post and how it totally refutes what you're trying to say. It is indeed God's word that is the seed. It is indeed the seed that goes forth FIRST before we are born again and made one with the Lord.

What you have stated, and what you insist is scriptural, is that we are joined with the Lord before we are born again and when we are dead in our trespasses. This is absolutely FALSE. What you insist is found in scripture is actually contrary to the word. So, are you sure it is just me that is trying to push his ideas; or are you playing a part in your own accusation?

Dani H
Apr 18th 2010, 09:47 PM
I look at "one flesh" as a very practical thing. Whatever affects me, affects my husband and vice versa. I look at it in covenant terms. It's in my best interest to treat him well because when I cut him down, I cut myself down, because we're one. We're a unit, I guess you could say. If you're dealing with me, you're dealing with him, and vice versa. There's no his, mine and ours. There's no dividing lines. It's one covenant unit. If you attack the covenant, you're dealing with both of us.

I think even the sexual act testifies to that because that's about as close as you can possibly become with a person, physically speaking, without actually melding with them.

Which is a great picture of us and the Lord, because whatever comes at you, has to deal with Him also. The picture of us as a Body testifies to that. If a body part gets affected, the rest of the body also responds to it in some way and is affected. Which is why it's kinda silly to attack each other, because if I attack my brother or sister, I'm hurting myself, so there's no point. We're in covenant with the Lord, and with each other. It's taken me some time to wake up to that reality, but there you have it.

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 10:00 PM
I think even the sexual act testifies to that because that's about as close as you can possibly become with a person, physically speaking, without actually melding with them.

Thanks for your thoughts, Dani. Would you say that a man and woman creating a child together is basically them "melding" with one another? What I mean is, that child is basically going to be both the man and the woman mashed together into a new flesh. What do you think about that?

Dani H
Apr 18th 2010, 10:32 PM
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Thanks for your thoughts, Dani. Would you say that a man and woman creating a child together is basically them "melding" with one another? What I mean is, that child is basically going to be both the man and the woman mashed together into a new flesh. What do you think about that?

I think that the act is powerful enough that it creates new life and that the child is of its parents, yet separate and different.

I'm not my mom. I'm not my dad. But I am of both and have traits of both that are undeniable. But I also have traits that are entirely my own because I'm a combination of things in a way that didn't exist before I came along and never will again (and aren't you glad? :D).

VerticalReality
Apr 18th 2010, 11:34 PM
I think that the act is powerful enough that it creates new life and that the child is of its parents, yet separate and different.

I'm not my mom. I'm not my dad. But I am of both and have traits of both that are undeniable. But I also have traits that are entirely my own because I'm a combination of things in a way that didn't exist before I came along and never will again (and aren't you glad? :D).

So, would you agree then that when the seed of the Lord goes into the heart of a willful recipient that this individual is made a new, born again creation that is united with the Lord in spirit and one with Him?

Dani H
Apr 18th 2010, 11:52 PM
So, would you agree then that when the seed of the Lord goes into the heart of a willful recipient that this individual is made a new, born again creation that is united with the Lord in spirit and one with Him?

I don't know the technicalities but I definitely believe that covenant with God is something very powerful that does have very real ramifications. I'm not exactly sure what happens spiritually. But I know what happens legally. Because here, we're dealing with adoption, covenant, the joining of two parties into one, the integration into one family with inheritance, the right to call God "Father," and other such things. I believe that the Holy Spirit is a being who is God, and that He comes into our lives in a way which the Bible calls "seal" and "downpayment" or "deposit" and who is somehow "in us" like Jesus said He would be, that doesn't happen without covenant. I don't know what "joined to the Lord" and "one spirit with Him" exactly looks like nor do I have a clue exactly how it happens, because these are things that are very difficult to put in words (just like God is) but I am certainly witness to the effects of it. It's something I know by no other way except faith, same as I know God.

Gillian
Apr 19th 2010, 12:18 AM
That true but the poster also right

It take both to tango..

we chose to heed God by conseice (that created, conseince of wisdom, begin from God in first place)

seed is word, wisdom god given consience, holy spirit, etc all that right and good is manifest of God Himself, by that set election of wisdom coming from God, freewill like God, all manifestion of Holy Spirit Father Son of wisdom, so we born again cos we chose to heed saved out of own heart, by that freewill choice our spirit join the Holy Spirit or wisdom conseince but also Holy Spirit join us. since our freewill is as the Lord,

in that born set wisdom God created his calling for us to confirm to the image of Christ, by God in what He created, by that nature all goodness widsom manifest of conseice God to be credited biggest of all.

but not to dismissed us of own credit too in choice to heed wisdom.

our consience, heart of own choice make that lost spirit in us AGAIN join Him.

like a newborn baby spirit below reason of understanding would place him/her in heaven begin clean in conseice.

freewill make it two ways about it as one.

must it be a big deal who who or just when? begin BOTH ways made it so justifced when God said He choose us before we born (set election in every conseince) we who choose to heed born again in Holy Spirit by choosing Him and He chosen us in election of beginning.

Holy Spirit is the seed word God etc widsom, but remember, make that Word worthy of it`s salavtion, in you ...making sure the seed Holy Spirit we recived to expected as it is according genuie heart to increased, to be complted as one.

that Seed make it justifced to credited God in He CHOSE US, touching consiece. Holy Spirit inculed.

but true as well after THAT is making sure by that seed we are born again truely.

literally Holy Spirit Himself as Person yes he join after we hear the Word, but no reason to dismiss HolySpirit in that seed too. join after, like making sure boldness of reciving. hearing Him in conseice is a touch by Holy Spirit in our heart already but to be bold in apporacing to God prayer. Holy Spriit will make sure that touch is complted, whole truely joined after that heed.


you right about it begin proper compltle as one after we revice seed. but other is right too by that touch of Spirit we get Him in seed.

Gillian
Apr 19th 2010, 12:28 AM
What you think of God basically going to be not two but three persons mashed together into one Persons
What you think about that ?


Gillian :D

VerticalReality
Apr 19th 2010, 01:02 AM
I don't know the technicalities

Well, we can look to the word and get a picture of what the technicalities look like . . .

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

So, here John says that those who are born of God have His seed in them. What is God's seed?

Refer to Matthew 13 and the parable of the sower. The parable of the sower informs us that God's seed is His word . . .

Now, if we take 1 John 3:9 for what it says then the word of God (His seed) is in us. Just as the parable of the sower explains, he who receives the word of God with good soil will bring forth that which the word of God declares. The word declares this about those who have received God's seed . . .

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

So, if a man/woman receives God's word then the Lord will come into this man/woman and make His home with them. So, they will now have the Spirit of Christ now indwelt within them, and therefore the following can be true . . .

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

So, in order for us to be one with the Lord we have to willfully submit to Him and accept His seed. This seed, therefore, will conceive in our hearts and bring forth a new creation/new spirit that is united and one with Him. We are now "one spirit" with Him.

Now, does this process not sound familiar?

Dani H
Apr 19th 2010, 04:50 AM
Think you missed one (important one):

Hebrews 4:2
For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

VerticalReality
Apr 19th 2010, 12:33 PM
Think you missed one (important one):

Hebrews 4:2
For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

This is what I was getting at with the parable of the sower. He who receives the word with "good soil" . . .

However, the verse you are referencing says it well also.