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Teke
Aug 12th 2004, 03:52 PM
I am studying the elohim or eloheem. Looking for input on these guys.

Were they judges?
Was the elders of Israel (70) patterned after them, them being the 70 elohim angels to the nations?
One of the reasons I am curious is because in Exodus, more than once the word for judge translates in Hebrew to elohim.

If so, then would Abraham and Moses also have been elohim?
This being in relation to the elect and those who judge with Christ.

If this structure holds true, then the elect replace the heavenly elohim judges.
And if there is any scripture reference to this replacement in the NT that connects the OT. Such as Pauls statement that "you are to judge angels", what is this in relation to in OT? Such as would show this as having occurred already or at the time of Christs ressurrection. Or was this a future prophecy of Pauls?


:help: Scripture references are first on my list, then any other books of antiquity that may help, and also historical accounts, as well as good commentaries. All info is greatly appreciated.

BTW, I am familiar with the Jewish rabbis commentaries on angels, but I would like some more grounded information. The rabbis tend to be tainted by ancient practices, thereby introducing fiction in with facts, producing a philosophy of sorts.

Ta-An
Aug 13th 2004, 12:41 PM
Elohim, elohim transliterated plural title {430 elohim} plural of {433 eloahh, elowahh}; this plural title has a dual interpretation; at times it refers to pagan gods, and at times to the triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Look in the "search" function ... type "Elohim"
Elohim is G_D.... it is the plural form that is singular in meaning.....

vume
Aug 13th 2004, 01:19 PM
Matthew 19:28
So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:30
that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=250796#post250796

I am of the opinion that Dinah (judge) being the last child of Leah and that the number 7 is the sign of perfection, that is the destiny of ALL things. Hear "O" Israel Elohim is one.

Ta-An
Aug 13th 2004, 01:59 PM
WEB Ps 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=82&BOOK=19&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For you have made him a little lower than God,{Hebrew: Elohim} And crowned him with glory and honor.

Teke
Aug 13th 2004, 01:59 PM
The bible in Christs time, was known to refer to a council of the Elohim or Elim and that the term extended beyond the concept of a duality or a Trinity.
In "The Psalms: Their Origin and Meaning" by Leopold Sabourin S.J. Sabourin demonstrates the concept of the Council of the Elohim in his work.

Sabourin lists the usage of Eloah but avoids dealing with the significance.

Sabourin addresses Psalm 86:8-10; 95:3; 96:4; 135:5. The Bene Elim are identified as the Sons of God as are the Bene Elyon (Sons of the Most High). He mentions the saints or Holy Ones (qedosim) from Psalm 89:6-8 who are Godís celestial attendants and that the term is used also of the human faithful.

These beings are of the Bene Elim or the Bene HaElohim. The Bene HaElohim are the Sons of the God(s). Sabourin, notes Coppens comment that the noun "qedosim" designates, in the Masoretic text, the divine terrestrial Court of YHVH, who are held to be elohim (pp. 102-103), says of this:

"The concept of a heavenly assembly is not a purely literary form, but is an element of the living pattern of Israelite faith (p. 75)."

The pattern of the usage of the terms for God is of an extended order. There is no doubt that the meaning was understood whether it was written in Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Chaldee. The pattern is undoubtedly of an extended order, which included humans, and involved a council which Christ had established on Sinai. These elohim are referred to in Exodus 21:6 where the word is translated as judges.

The word is acknowledged as being plural here, and in Exodus 22:8-9, by its translation as "judges", but the word used is elohim. There are two perfectly good and common words for judge(s) in Hebrew. These are SHD 6414 paliyl (Ex. 21:22; Deut. 32:31) and SHD 8199 shaphat (Num. 25:5; Deut. 1:16 et seq.). The words were in use at the time the word elohim was used. Thus, the distinction ......

El is God and elohim is a plural, also showing "with God".

Ta-An
Aug 13th 2004, 02:10 PM
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=1410&highlight=elohim
And also
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=19422&highlight=elohim

Ta-An
Aug 13th 2004, 02:17 PM
Teke, as John said.... we can even be refered to as 'elohim'... for we shall judge the angels..1 Cor 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=82&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Don't you know that we will judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?


Judges were appointed men of G_d.....
The L_rd is our Judge.
Do you agree the we are sons of G_d?? For we are His adopted children... yet adopted sons of G_d....

Sabourin addresses Psalm 86:8-10; 95:3; 96:4; 135:5. The Bene Elim are identified as the Sons of God as are the Bene Elyon (Sons of the Most High). He mentions the saints or Holy Ones (qedosim) from Psalm 89:6-8 who are Godís celestial attendants and that the term is used also of the human faithful.
What is your understanding of this quoted piece??

Teke
Aug 13th 2004, 02:45 PM
Teke, as John said.... we can even be refered to as 'elohim'... for we shall judge the angels..1 Cor 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=82&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Don't you know that we will judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?


Judges were appointed men of G_d.....
The L_rd is our Judge.
Do you agree the we are sons of G_d?? For we are His adopted children... yet adopted sons of G_d....
What is your understanding of this quoted piece??

Thanks for the links ACCM. Long one by BDH......

I understand it can apply to us. In this particular Psalm, it seems to me anyway, that were talking heaven and earth here.

Meaning He is sourrounded in heaven and earth by "saints", "sons of the mighty", which seems to allude to those in heaven (angels ie. sons of the mighty) , and us ie. saints. Which could be seen as the same persons. But why not be consistent with wording if speaking of the same?

My question, why the comparison? Can we in the flesh be compared to angels, especially mighty ones? Unless there is a place in this part of the hierarchy for such. And if so, do we replace those mighty ones (probably archangels IMO)? Or is this showing an equality only.

Ta-An
Aug 13th 2004, 03:13 PM
My question, why the comparison? Can we in the flesh be compared to angels, especially mighty ones? Unless there is a place in this part of the hierarchy for such. And if so, do we replace those mighty ones (probably archangels IMO)? Or is this showing an equality only.Well to us as humans are reffered to as sons of G_d, not to the Angels tho...
Do we replace them?? I see no scripture aupporting that....

But why not be consistent with wording if speaking of the same? The Scriptures (Bible) , we believe is the inspired Word of G_d.... yet it was written by humans, and also translated by humans.... how many translated versions later... since the original , are we reading from...:confused
Many different ways to write a spesific phrase, remember, language has to do with the culture of a people.....:idea: ,, therfor, study Hebrew, and read the oiginal text by yourself ;)

Teke
Aug 15th 2004, 04:42 PM
Well to us as humans are reffered to as sons of G_d, not to the Angels tho...
Do we replace them?? I see no scripture aupporting that.... The Scriptures (Bible) , we believe is the inspired Word of G_d.... yet it was written by humans, and also translated by humans.... how many translated versions later... since the original , are we reading from...:confused
Many different ways to write a spesific phrase, remember, language has to do with the culture of a people.....:idea: ,, therfor, study Hebrew, and read the oiginal text by yourself ;)


Teke
The pattern of the usage of the terms for God is of an extended order. There is no doubt that the meaning was understood whether it was written in Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Chaldee. The pattern is undoubtedly of an extended order, which included humans, and involved a council which Christ had established on Sinai. These elohim are referred to in Exodus 21:6 where the word is translated as judges.

The word is acknowledged as being plural here, and in Exodus 22:8-9, by its translation as "judges", but the word used is elohim. There are two perfectly good and common words for judge(s) in Hebrew. These are SHD 6414 paliyl (Ex. 21:22; Deut. 32:31) and SHD 8199 shaphat (Num. 25:5; Deut. 1:16 et seq.). The words were in use at the time the word elohim was used. Thus, the distinction ......

Hence, my questions because of the original language.

I'm going to study it some more. :D

Ta-An
Aug 15th 2004, 05:40 PM
Which translation of the Bible do you use for your referances??

Teke
Aug 16th 2004, 01:02 PM
Which translation of the Bible do you use for your referances??

I use the KJV Companion bible with notes. Also the Hebrew bible.

Ta-An
Aug 16th 2004, 02:52 PM
I use the KJV Companion bible with notes. Also the Hebrew bible.Which Hebrew bible??

Teke
Aug 16th 2004, 03:25 PM
Which Hebrew bible??


The Tanach.

I also looked at the Latin translations by Johannes Leusden (dutch calvinist) and the Geneva bible.

In my KJV Companion bible, Bullinger is limiited on his notes of this subject, but gives references to the text only.

The Jewish rabbis have much to say on this subject. But that is not the area I wanted to study. I wanted to stay within the context of our bibles books. There are many extra books not in the bible on this subject . ie. the book of Enoch

I'm searching the scriptures more. I'm sure the info is there, it is just a matter of finding it.

Ta-An
Aug 16th 2004, 05:01 PM
The Tanach. . In Hebrew?? ............. Does it have study notes in it??

Teke
Aug 16th 2004, 05:14 PM
In Hebrew?? ............. Does it have study notes in it??

Yes in Hebrew.
No, it does not have study notes.

Ta-An
Aug 16th 2004, 06:16 PM
Yes in Hebrew.
No, it does not have study notes.So you are fluent in Hebrew??

Teke
Aug 24th 2004, 07:08 PM
So you are fluent in Hebrew??

I don't practice speaking Hebrew with other people.

I do fluently study Hebrew. I like it much better than Greek. The Greek lacks so much, where the Hebrew is so rich in meaning.

Ta-An
Feb 13th 2008, 09:42 AM
I am so glad to have found this thread :pp

Teke, I have this morning read about the elohim in Psalm 82
The judges as gods....
and because just yesterday I answered a post about the tribe of Dan not being mentioned in the book of Revelation..... it all was still fresh to me.

The tribe of Dan were the judges amongst the Hebrews.... but the tribe of Dan does not feature in the book of Revelation .... because of Idolatry....

Christ is our Judge.
So this makes me think.... to judge now can only be done by G_d... it was done by the tribe of Dan, who had the position of gods to judge :hmm: So to be in the position to judge, one is in the position as a god..... Yes, as you correctly say... we'll judge the Angels :note: We need to be so careful not to get the same judgment over us as what was pronounced over the 'elohim'/tribe of Dan because of Idolatry :eek:.... and so many a thing can become idols in one's life :help:

Teke
Feb 14th 2008, 09:21 PM
So this makes me think.... to judge now can only be done by G_d...

So to be in the position to judge, one is in the position as a god..... Yes, as you correctly say... we'll judge the Angels


Wow, old thread you dug up.:lol:

I reconciled this better with the LXX. When mixing languages there can be some confusion. The LXX is all Greek, so it's consistent with the NT.
These "judges" are representatives of God. Romans 13:1 explains well for anyone.:)

Ta-An
Feb 16th 2008, 10:08 AM
Wow, old thread you dug up.:lol:


Well, I have a memory like an Elephant:lol:....only sometimes....