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tmentour
Apr 15th 2010, 10:37 PM
Is 45:7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things

1. Why did God create these things?
2. Why is God saying this?

HisLeast
Apr 15th 2010, 10:52 PM
Is 45:7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things

1. Why did God create these things?
That is likely not for us to know. My hypothesis is that free agency is useless without challenge.


2. Why is God saying this?
Because it is true, and to give us a proper understanding of how the universe works. There is but one authority in all the universe - God. Too many believe bad things happen because of Satan, as if Satan can go about bending the universe to his will.

jayne
Apr 16th 2010, 12:14 AM
God is about to use King Cyrus - a pagan king to send His people back home to Israel.

God is introducing Himself. (Albeit it is 200 years before Cyrus' birth). The prophecy here comes true in Ezra.

Look back at chapter 45 from the beginning. Isaiah is prophecying that God is in control of every aspect of Cyrus' life. The good - the bad - whatever. This passage isn't necessarily about God making bad things happen.

It's about God being Sovereign in all things.

Here's what David Guzik says.


2. (4-7) The purpose behind Godís calling and mission for Cyrus.



For Jacob My servantís sake, and Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.



a. For Jacob My servantís sake: Cyrus would like to think that God picked him because he was the smartest or most talented or strongest man available. Really, Godís focus was on His people. It wasnít Cyrus that moved God to act, but the condition and cry of His people. It was for their sake.



i. ďThat all these victories were for the sake of little Israel is one of the ironies of Godís control of history.Ē (Grogan)



ii. ďCyrus is preferred in order that Israel might be released. Cyrus shall have a kingdom, but only in order that Godís people may have their liberty. The Lord raises up one, and He puts down another. Behind all the drama of human events today there is a God who is planning for His church - through affliction and persecution, chastening and tribulation - to be perfected and prepared to inherit the Kingdom of God.Ē (Redpath)

Sirus
Apr 16th 2010, 01:04 AM
God created the environment for both to exist through free will. However this is not what is being said in Isaiah 45.
I agree with jayne. :thumbsup: except for the every aspect part!
It is about God's sovereignty in using Cyrus to free Israel to bring Christ in the flesh.

It must remain in its context and not be pulled out and applied wrongfully by our wrong theology into other areas that scripture does not apply God's sovereignty to. Verse 9....


Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
....is quoted in Romans 9:20.......


Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
....in regards to Rom 9:4-19.


Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
So we have


chosen Israel -election- to bring Christ in the flesh
Jacob, who God knew before hand (elect according to foreknowledge) would desire the covenant blessings and not despise the covenant blessings as Esau.
Moses -Israel received mercy -Exo 33:19- for the purpose of election
Pharaoh used for the same purpose of God -to bring Christ in the flesh -election
No man can resist THIS (Christ in the flesh -election) will and purpose of God
Cyrus -to free Israel to bring Christ in the flesh

All of this has to do with the context set in verse 5 -Christ coming in the flesh.
When you see an OT quote it is of the utmost importance to go and read the entire passage. You will always find the same point/s made in both. The NT will not contradict the OT quoted passage.
To pull out Isa 45:7 to say God in His sovereignty controls everything is slandering the name of God (Jesus) who is good and full of mercy and grace. How is this done? Well, just ignoring v6 and v8 alone answers that. Scripture is ignored.


Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
..........
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
.....and how does it end?

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Who is that talking about?

So you can see how these two chapters say the same thing. They have nothing to do with why someone is sick, why someone died, why someone is not healed, why something bad happened or even why something good happened in someones life. It is not found in the context of either.

Nomad
Apr 16th 2010, 01:49 AM
Is 45:7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things

1. Why did God create these things?
2. Why is God saying this?

It's very simple. Your passage means exactly what it says. God is sovereign. He controls all things for His own glory whether man likes it or not.

Sirus
Apr 16th 2010, 02:12 AM
Wow! Look at all those scriptures in context you posted. What was I thinking? You are right. There's no doubt!

Gillian
Apr 16th 2010, 11:35 PM
God is saying He above all and in some sense He control everything and created everthing inculed evil `I know evil` etc now that just half of story, from understanding what God mean in fullness of saying them,
create darkness - tough love the pusihment coqueaces.
know evil - it results Lucifer sins that expericed by God first sin action.
know the risk of freewill like God Himself the true libreaty in begin, not navie but true happiness are found in free libreaty, of any created under the Law, the highest Law that cannont tempt Himself, but those that under, do risk a wrong reason to rebel at. problem is freewill only way a true understanding is found in wisdom and love.

two exmaples Egpyt and Job God above all yet at same time He is not in a sense.

the King of Egpyt no doubt of his charcther propley pretty obvious of it triats and doenst need words since tycpail os eyptain cultures and others,

God harded his heart He said,

King himself hardened his heart bible said two differnet things but both true. direact and indireactly.

God knew tough words will be a effect predictable on king already hard heart, the king choose himself to be, so not God direact fault of king the way he is, just that prize long there knowing the king dont like hearing moral words and rebel ever further in effect God harded his heart further.
really, many times `what choice God have` do apply, pateice, and often bend backward hoodwick etc due to man harded heart hence the seemly "angry God" of OT and gentle of NT is not God but rather other way round is the reason why God appear to be more nicer in latter NT times. OT times hard hearts requice hard lessons teachings to get man actually understand, latter time then real chance of understanding is there. let say,we thrown back in time travel to anceints times propley so many more then not, find our thinking of fairness equal animal welfare many more simple to strange for them to get the conpect of it basic today and we propley find them simple too strange of their reasonings, that inculed saints in varying degrees.

Job, God on throne, proctect hedge around Job,
Seem that Job long time been wonderful in his walk with God so over and over long blessing by Holy Spirit, lack of test temtpions as we all get in our ways soemtimes. Didnt go unoticed by devil, Thinking I got God there a unfairness.
all other saints saved faced test tempts but Job dont in long peroid , frankly because Job too wonderful at all times constantly, aumtocially blessing of Holy spirit due to strenght of containlly goodness in his heart, so pleased God.
Devil went up to God,, remember devil cant see inside of man heart, but God can by holy spirit, devil short limited saw and challaged God saying of Job, if you allow me do this and that to him test temptions, not fair since all others who godly but faced test tempts ever Adam was, it too long Job havent so I bet you allow me do this he will balk in walk with you. God, knowing able to see inside Job, but consdered devil question fair enough challage despite his ovbious agenda! begin Law God must be in all fairness and knowing Job. God say fine devil foreseeing devil idea will end up justicfed God Himself to reward in blessing Job ever greater, according to his would be struggles. better still make all doubters around Job suprised and puzzled at sudden turn of great welath peace so on.

im sure you can guess how that turn out!

point is devil hand and idea of evil direactly God indireactly resoniable for withdrew His blessing of protection, and this based on God foresee Job able to handle the struggle the test tempts.

just the the test temps God allow satan to be around but warned Adam of disobence the test tempts (expericed by satan sin under God better the latter created begins all to be tested and be aware all more pointly, now there activelly sinners in shape of demons satan presently,) by test tempts and warning to Adam to be aware of, like Job`s and Epyty king God not direact fault of sins or of evil, indireact yes for purely allowance of freewill and created begins to be like God in many ways. Devil hand direactly fault of all that evil. by devil sins and man sins caused God tough love as He must to follow. created darkness hell fire etc for devil his angels. That what I belive when God moved to created Man and Earth. that intense blackness not will be like that in heaven yes there will be nights but not as we know it outside, Isaiah mentioned of how God create, moon by sevenfold as sun, sun be sevenfold brighter then our current moon sun, I see it dimming, decrease brightness or increase brightness. in Rev God in the city where his throne is, that city have no nights as God in full blazing glory, but afar distance yes in new earth and heaven there are nights but not our types of nights glow dimmed more like.

Gillian

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 17th 2010, 03:07 PM
Wow! Look at all those scriptures in context you posted. What was I thinking? You are right. There's no doubt!

your sarcastic tone and mocking attitude....... He that Created the foundations of the Earth.... and He that Inhabiteth Eternity....... He that dwelleth with him/her that is contrite in Heart and spirit sees and 'knows'.... and this type of attitude and tone.. that you display here.. this evdient by your 'fruit'... He knows how to deal with...
and will deal with it..

The Scripture says what it says.. and Yes.. God is Sovereign....

man in his rebellion.. these who are wise in their own eyes... shake their fists at God and tell Him.. 'thats NOT what your saying in your Word.. 'how dare you say that and do that'.... you can't do that.. you have to respond and 'obey' our will here on earth..

this every evident today..

Nomad
Apr 17th 2010, 04:33 PM
man in his rebellion.. these who are wise in their own eyes... shake their fists at God and tell Him.. 'thats NOT what your saying in your Word.. 'how dare you say that and do that'.... you can't do that.. you have to respond and 'obey' our will here on earth..

Unfortunately there are many who exhibit the attitude you describe. What's really ironic about it is that the Apostle Paul addressed this attitude in his epistle to the Romans. I'm sure you know the passage.

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" ESV

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 04:41 PM
You too TBD? Why are you so upset and incoherent? It's not like you to accuse and run not posting scripture and giving a little explanation and commentary. That's unfortunate.
I have not denied the sovereignty of God. I do deny religions definition. I'm guessing that's your definition as well, but we see religion has no scripture and has to ignoring half the Bible to back up their independent definition. Your entire post is based on a completely wrong understanding of what sovereign means and lacks any scripture.

If you or anyone would like to point out any error in my earlier post #4, be my guest, but please use scripture in context!

Nomad
Apr 17th 2010, 05:04 PM
Your entire post is based on a completely wrong understanding of what sovereign means and lacks any scripture.

I see. So now you want to twist the definition of "sovereignty?" Here's your Biblical definition.

PSALMS 115:3 - "But our God is in the heavens: HE HAS DONE WHATSOEVER HE HAS PLEASED."

PSALMS 119:89-91 - "Forever, O LORD, Thy Word is settled in heaven. Thy faithfulness is to all generations: Thou has established the earth, and it abides. They continue this day ACCORDING TO THINE ORDINANCES: FOR ALL ARE THY SERVANTS."

PSALMS 135:5-6 - "For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods. WHATSOEVER THE LORD PLEASED, THAT HE DID in heaven, and in the earth, in the seas, and in all deep places."

PROVERBS 16:4 - "The LORD has made ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF: yes, EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL."

PROVERBS 16:9 - "A man's heart devises his way; BUT THE LORD DIRECTS HIS STEPS" (see Isa. 10:5-7,12).

PROVERBS 19:21 - "There are many devices in a man's heart; NEVERTHELESS THE COUNSEL OF THE LORD, THAT SHALL STAND."

PROVERBS 20:24 - "Man's goings are OF THE LORD; how then can a man understand his own way?"

PROVERBS 21:30 - "There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD."

ECCLESIASTES 7:13 - "Consider the work of God: for WHO CAN MAKE THAT STRAIGHT WHICH HE HAS MADE CROOKED?"

ISAIAH 14:24 - "The LORD of Hosts has sworn, saying, 'Surely as I have thought, SO SHALL IT COME TO PASS; and as I have purposed, SO SHALL IT STAND ..."

ISAIAH 30:28 - "And (GOD'S) breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the kneck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, CAUSING THEM TO ERR."

ISAIAH 43:13 - "Yes, before the day was I am He; and THERE IS NONE THAT CAN DELIVER OUT OF MY HAND: I WILL WORK, AND WHO SHALL HINDER IT?"

ISAIAH 45:7 - "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being, AND CREATE CALAMITY, I am the LORD, who does ALL THESE THINGS."

ISAIAH 46:9-11 - "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, 'MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, AND I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE: calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that EXECUTES MY COUNSEL from a far country: yes, I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT."

ISAIAH 54:16 - "Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for his work; and I HAVE CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY."

ISAIAH 55:11 - "So shall My Word be that goes forth out of My mouth: it shall not return to Me void, BUT IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, and IT SHALL PROSPER IN THE THING WHERETO I SENT IT."

LAMENTATIONS 3:37-38 - "Who is he that says, 'and it comes to pass, when the LORD commands it not? Out of the mouth of the Most High proceeds not EVIL AND GOOD?'"

DANIEL 4:34-35 - "... and I blessed the Most High, and I praised and honoured Him that lives forever, Whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom is from generation to generation: AND ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH ARE REPUTED AS NOTHING: and He does ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, AND AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, OR SAY TO HIM, 'WHAT DOEST THOU?'"

AMOS 3:6 - "... Shall there be evil in a city, AND THE LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?"

JOHN 3:27 - "John answered and said, 'A man can receive NOTHING, except it be given him FROM HEAVEN."

ACTS 4:26-27 - "'The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ ... to do WHATSOEVER THY HAND AND THY COUNSEL DETERMINED BEFORE TO BE DONE."

1 CORINTHIANS 2:7 - "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ORDAINED BEFORE THE WORLD, to our glory."

JAMES 4:13-15 - "Go to now, you that say, 'Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain,' whereas you know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that you ought to say, 'IF THE LORD WILL, we shall live, and do this or that.'"

REVELATION 4:11 - "Thou art worthy, O LORD, to receive glory, and honour, and power: for Thou has created all things, and FOR THY PLEASURE they are and were created."

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 05:22 PM
I see. So now you want to twist the definition of "sovereignty?" Here's your Biblical definition.No twisting. I agree with all of those. They do not contradict my understanding of the sovereignty of God. What pleases Him? What is His will and His counsel and His pleasure? What is the work of God? These verses and their phrases interpreted alone and applied to sovereignty apart from what they mean and are referring to leaves you with a very narrow minded understanding of sovereignty. That is not an holistic approach to interpretation and is therefore lacking.

Nomad
Apr 17th 2010, 05:33 PM
Sorry Sirus. The passages I posted mean exactly what they say. They all say that God accomplishes all His will and there is nothing and no one to stop Him. You can equivocate on that Biblical fact all you want, but you're only fooling yourself.

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 05:53 PM
Sorry Sirus. The passages I posted mean exactly what they say. They all say that God accomplishes all His will and there is nothing and no one to stop Him.I completely agree.

BroRog
Apr 17th 2010, 05:56 PM
Is 45:7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things

1. Why did God create these things?
2. Why is God saying this?Here God reveals his transcendent nature. He speaks into a polytheistic world -- a world convinced that there are many forces and gods that shape reality. Some people believe in the god of luck, or fate, or destiny. Others believe in little gods like the goddess of futility, goddess of love, goddess of home and hearth, goddess of beauty and sexuality to name a few. Whatever god or goddess we can name, whatever force we can name, whatever mankind might think controls things Yahweh is above them all. None of these gods or goddesses bring things into existence; they work with whatever they find. But Yahweh brings both the light and the darkness, which means he is the transcendent creator God responsible for everything that exists. If it exists at all, he made it.

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 06:01 PM
Sorry Sirus. The passages I posted mean exactly what they say. They all say that God accomplishes all His will and there is nothing and no one to stop Him.It is His will that none perish yet most do. If He made "EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL." we have a problem and God is schizophrenic. Since this is not the case our understanding of one of the two is wrong. How do you answer this?

Is it His sovereign will that I say the things I say?

Nomad
Apr 17th 2010, 06:42 PM
It is His will that none perish yet most do. If He made "EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL." we have a problem and God is schizophrenic. Since this is not the case our understanding of one of the two is wrong. How do you answer this?

Is it His sovereign will that I say the things I say?

So now you resort to pitting Scripture against Scripture? You're going to attempt to use one passage of Scripture to "neutralize" a whole host of others? You're a real piece of work Sirus. Do you have no shame?

We do not have a problem Sirus. You do. Your out-of-context understanding of 2 Pet. 3:9 causes you to set up glaring contradictions in Scripture. 2 Pet. 3:9 is one of the easiest verses of Scripture to understand unless one has an overriding theological axe to grind. Here it is. Pay close attention to the proper understanding of 2 Pet. 3:9.


The second thing to notice is the clear identity of the people he is addressing. He speaks of the mockers as “they”, but everywhere else he speaks to his audience as “you” and the “beloved.” This is very important because the assumption that is usually made is that the “you” the “any” and the “all” of 2 Peter 3:9 refers to everyone on the planet.

But surely "all" means “all,” right? Well usually, yes, but not always. This has to be determined by the context in which the words are found. For example, when a teacher is getting ready to start a class and asks his students, "Are all here?" he is not asking if every last living person on planet earth is present in the room. Rather he is referring to all the students enrolled in the class. It is context that provides the basis for a sound interpretation.

So, the question in 2 Peter 3:9 is whether "all" refers to all human beings without distinction, or whether it refers to everyone within a certain group. The context indicates that Peter is writing to a specific group and not to all of mankind – “to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours” 2 Peter 1:1. The audience is confirmed when Peter writes, “This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved.” (2 Peter 3:1)

Can we be even more specific? Yes, because if this is the second letter addressed to them, the first makes it clear who he is writing to. 1 Peter 1:1 - “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect…” So Peter is writing to the elect in 2 Peter 3, saying:

“This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved.... But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” (v. 1, 8, 9 - emphasis mine)

If the "any" or “all” here refers to everyone in human history, the verse would prove far more than Arminians would want to prove - it would prove universalism rather than Christianity. (Universalism is the false doctrine that teaches that everyone will ultimately be saved, with no one going to hell). If God is not willing that any person perish, then what? No one would ever perish! Yet, in context, the "any" that God wills not to perish must be limited to the same group he is writing to, the elect, and the "all" that are to come to repentance is the very same group. Christ’s second coming has been delayed so that all the elect can be gathered in. God is not willing that any of the elect should perish, but that all of them come to repentance.

Rather than denying election, understood in its biblical context, it is one of the strongest verses in favor of it.

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2005/10/understanding_2_peter_39_by_pa.php

Gillian
Apr 17th 2010, 07:37 PM
“This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved.... But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” (v. 1, 8, 9 - emphasis mine)

since holy Spirit direct the writing doenst all also refered to us the readers? we who saved are elect no? I agree that it go to as written to group but I dont see why that limited to elect of his time and not us?

since in context words dont inculed rites or customs or jewsish but Gospel for us too.

Gillian are you of Calvin viewpoint not sure where u re coming (just read this post)

Nomad
Apr 17th 2010, 07:47 PM
Hi Gillian,

You are correct. Peter's statement applies to all of the elect. I would not deny that.

And yes... while it is an unfortunate appellation, I am an unrepentant, card carrying "Calvinist." Anyone interested in what I believe the Bible to teach can simply click on the link in my signature labeled "London Baptist Confession of 1689."

Gillian
Apr 17th 2010, 08:07 PM
Hi Gillian,

You are correct. Peter's statement applies to all of the elect. I would not deny that.

And yes... while it is an unfortunate appellation, I am an unrepentant, card carrying "Calvinist." Anyone interested in what I believe the Bible to teach can simply click on the link in my signature labeled "London Baptist Confession of 1689."

figured...:spin:

long time since i came to debates..look fun

Nomad
Apr 17th 2010, 08:16 PM
figured...:spin:

long time since i came to debates..look fun

I don't know about fun, :B but sometimes necessary. ;)

Sirus
Apr 17th 2010, 11:35 PM
So now you resort to pitting Scripture against Scripture? You're going to attempt to use one passage of Scripture to "neutralize" a whole host of others?No. I only posted one of hundreds. I do not need to post hundreds thinking it somehow justifies my view. If there are two that represent hundreds on both sides that seem to contradict each other, and we know they can't, we need to find out what is wrong with our theology.


We do not have a problem Sirus. You do. Your out-of-context understanding of 2 Pet. 3:9 causes you to set up glaring contradictions in Scripture. 2 Pet. 3:9 is one of the easiest verses of Scripture to understand unless one has an overriding theological axe to grind. Here it is. Pay close attention to the proper understanding of 2 Pet. 3:9.That reformed garbage is as wrong as wrong gets. Its lens is effecting your vision.

BroRog
Apr 17th 2010, 11:41 PM
No. I only posted one of hundreds. I do not need to post hundreds thinking it somehow justifies my view. If there are two that represent hundreds on both sides that seem to contradict each other, and we know they can't, we need to find out what is wrong with our theology.Don't the verses Nomad posted back in post #11 suggest that perhaps your theology needs modification or some kind of sythesis explanation? Why act as if the Reformers put those verses in the Bible? Why not deal with them?

Nomad
Apr 17th 2010, 11:46 PM
That reformed garbage is as wrong as wrong gets. Its lens is effecting your vision.

That's it??? That's your refutation??? A baseless assertion???

Well Sirus, with your view of 2 Pet. 3:9, you have only two choices. You can live with the contradiction you have constructed between some very clear passages of Scripture or become a universalist, which is equally untenable. If God accomplishes all of His will, as Scripture clearly indicates, and He is not willing that any (exhaustively - your view of 2Pet.3:9) should perish, then all (exhaustively) are saved. Good luck with that.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 02:37 AM
Don't the verses Nomad posted back in post #11 suggest that perhaps your theology needs modification or some kind of sythesis explanation?Why? They do not contradict my theology.


Why act as if the Reformers put those verses in the Bible? Why not deal with them?I did not imply any such thing. I said their interp is completely wrong.
I did deal with them in post #4.


God created the environment for both to exist through free will.

It is about God's sovereignty....It must remain in its context and not be pulled out and applied wrongfully by our wrong theology into other areas that scripture does not apply God's sovereignty to

To pull out Isa 45:7 to say God in His sovereignty controls everything is slandering the name of God (Jesus) who is good and full of mercy and grace

They have nothing to do with why someone is sick, why someone died, why someone is not healed, why something bad happened or even why something good happened in someones life.

Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 02:48 AM
Well Sirus, with your view of 2 Pet. 3:9, you have only two choices. You can live with the contradiction you have constructed between some very clear passages of Scripture or become a universalist, which is equally untenable. If God accomplishes all of His will, as Scripture clearly indicates, and He is not willing that any (exhaustively - your view of 2Pet.3:9) should perish, then all (exhaustively) are saved. Good luck with that.The first isn't even true. The second is absurd. I asked you what His will was. You didn't answer. He has, does, and will accomplish His will. His will is that men choose -John 3.

Nomad
Apr 18th 2010, 02:56 AM
He has, does, and will accomplish His will.

Not according to your universal interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9.

losthorizon
Apr 18th 2010, 03:00 AM
And yes... while it is an unfortunate appellation, I am an unrepentant, card carrying "Calvinist."
What is unfortunate for you and your non-biblical theology is the fact that Paul and the other inspired writers of the NT were not Calvinists. This fact makes your theology awkward and clumsy when compared to what is recorded in Holy Writ. But then you know that already.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 03:08 AM
Not according to your universal interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9.That's it??? That's your refutation??? A baseless assertion???

Amos_with_goats
Apr 18th 2010, 03:14 AM
Gentlemen,

Very sorry to do this, but you are unlikely to convince the other of the validity of your position in this manner.

I am going to close this one down since it does not seem to be producing any good fruit.

Please consider a different approach in future threads.