PDA

View Full Version : Rom. 8:10



Equipped_4_Love
Apr 17th 2010, 10:12 PM
What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

I'm going through Romans with various commentaries, and they all seem to agree that the body is dead means that it has death in it because of sin, but that is true for both Christians and non-Christians, so ho can it be impingent on whether or not wehave Christ in us?

Unless the passage is referring to us crucifying the lusts and desires of the flesh, in which case would only be true of believers...those who have Christ in them.

Any thoughts? Are my commentaries off?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 17th 2010, 10:21 PM
Also, is verse 11 referring to the resurrection?

Nomad
Apr 17th 2010, 10:40 PM
Here's a concise explanation from two of my favorite commentaries:


The meaning of the entire passage, viewed in light of the immediately preceding context, can be summarized as follows:
You, by contrast, are not basically under the control of sinful human nature but of the Spirit. You are therefore not unable to please God, since God’s Spirit is dwelling in you. (Now if there should be anyone who shows by his life and actions that he does not possess the Spirit of Christ, such a person does not belong to Christ. He is not a Christian at all.) But if Christ is living in you, then, though because of sin the body must die, nevertheless, because you have been justified, the Spirit, himself Life, is alive within you. And if that Spirit, namely, the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead, is dwelling in you, then he who raised Christ from the dead will, on the day of the resurrection, impart life also to your mortal bodies. He will do it through the agency of the Spirit who is dwelling within you.

Hendriksen, William ; Kistemaker, Simon J.: New Testament Commentary : Exposition of Paul's Epistle to the Romans. Grand Rapids : Baker Book House, 1953-2001 (New Testament Commentary 12-13), S. 251



But if Christ be in us, etc. What he had before said of the Spirit he says now of Christ, in order that the mode of Christ’s dwelling in us might be intimated; for as by the Spirit he consecrates us as temples to himself, so by the same he dwells in us. But what we have before referred to, he now explains more fully — that the children of God are counted spiritual, not on the ground of a full and complete perfection, but only on account of the newness of life that is begun in them. And he anticipates here an occasion of doubt, which might have otherwise disturbed us; for though the Spirit possesses a part of us, we yet see another part still under the power of death. He then gives this answer — that the power of quickening is in the Spirit of Christ, which will be effectual in swallowing up our mortality. He hence concludes that we must patiently wait until the relics of sin be entirely abolished.

Readers have been already reminded, that by the word Spirit they are not to understand the soul, but the Spirit of regeneration; and Paul calls the Spirit life, not only because he lives and reigns in us, but also because he quickens us by his power, until at length, having destroyed the mortal fesh, he perfectly renews us. So, on the other hand, the word body signifies that gross mass which is not yet purified by the Spirit of God from earthly dregs, which delight in nothing but what is gross; for it would be otherwise absurd to ascribe to the body the fault of sin: besides the soul is so far from being life that it does not of itself live. The meaning of Paul then is — that although sin adjudges us to death as far as the corruption of our first nature remains in us, yet that the Spirit of God is its conqueror: nor is it any hindrance, that we are only favored with the first-fruits, for even one spark of the Spirit is the seed of life. - John Calvin

Nomad
Apr 17th 2010, 10:53 PM
Also, is verse 11 referring to the resurrection?

Absolutely. The reference there is to the future resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 17th 2010, 11:50 PM
Thank you. That's what I thought

Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 12:05 AM
What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

I'm going through Romans with various commentaries, and they all seem to agree that the body is dead means that it has death in it because of sin, but that is true for both Christians and non-Christians, so ho can it be impingent on whether or not wehave Christ in us?

Unless the passage is referring to us crucifying the lusts and desires of the flesh, in which case would only be true of believers...those who have Christ in them.

Any thoughts? Are my commentaries off?

I think Irenaeus gives a good explanation of this.

Against Heresies, Book 5

Chap. X.—By a Comparison Drawn from the Wild Olive-Tree, Whose Quality but Not Whose Nature Is Changed by Grafting, He Proves More Important Things; He Points Out also That Man Without the Spirit Is Not Capable of Bringing Forth Fruit, or of Inheriting the Kingdom of God.

1. This truth, therefore, [he declares], in order that we may not reject the engrafting of the Spirit while pampering the flesh. “But thou, being a wild olive-tree,” he says, “hast been grafted into the good olive-tree, and been made a partaker of the fatness of the olive-tree.” (Rom. 11:17) As, therefore, when the wild olive has been engrafted, if it remain in its former condition, viz., a wild olive, it is “cut off, and cast into the fire;” (Matt. 7:19) but if it takes kindly to the graft, and is changed into the good olive-tree, it becomes a fruit-bearing olive, planted, as it were, in a king’s park (paradiso): so likewise men, if they do truly progress by faith towards better things, and receive the Spirit of God, and bring forth the fruit thereof, shall be spiritual, as being planted in the paradise of God. But if they cast out the Spirit, and remain in their former condition, desirous of being of the flesh rather than of the Spirit, then it is very justly said with regard to men of this stamp, “That flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God;” (1 Cor. 15:50) just as if any one were to say that the wild olive is not received into the paradise of God. Admirably therefore does the apostle exhibit our nature, and God’s universal appointment, in his discourse about flesh and blood and the wild olive. For as the good olive, if neglected for a certain time, if left to grow wild and to run to wood, does itself become a wild olive; or again, if the wild olive be carefully tended and grafted, it naturally reverts to its former fruit-bearing condition: so men also, when they become careless, and bring forth for fruit the lusts of the flesh like woody produce, are rendered, by their own fault, unfruitful in righteousness. For when men sleep, the enemy sows the material of tares; (Matt. 13:25) and for this cause did the Lord command His disciples to be on the watch. (Matt. 24:42, 25:13; Mark 13:33) And again, those persons who are not bringing forth the fruits of righteousness, and are, as it were, covered over and lost among brambles, if they use diligence, and receive the word of God as a graft, (James 1:21) arrive at the pristine nature of man—that which was created after the image and likeness of God.

2. But as the engrafted wild olive does not certainly lose the substance of its wood, but changes the quality of its fruit, and receives another name, being now not a wild olive, but a fruit-bearing olive, and is called so; so also, when man is grafted in by faith and receives the Spirit of God, he certainly does not lose the substance of flesh, but changes the quality of the fruit of his works, and receives another name, (Rev. 2:17) showing that he has become changed for the better, being now not [mere] flesh and blood, but a spiritual man, and is called such. Then, again, as the wild olive, if it be not grafted in, remains useless to its lord because of its woody quality, and is cut down as a tree bearing no fruit, and cast into the fire; so also man, if he does not receive through faith the engrafting of the Spirit, remains in his old condition, and being [mere] flesh and blood, he cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Rightly therefore does the apostle declare, “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;” (1 Cor. 15:50) and, “Those who are in the flesh cannot please God:” (Rom. 13:8) not repudiating [by these words] the substance of flesh, but showing that into it the Spirit must be infused. And for this reason, he says, “This mortal must put on immortality, and this corruptible must put on incorruption.” (1 Cor. 15:53) And again he declares, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” (Rom. 8:9) He sets this forth still more plainly, where he says, “The body indeed is dead, because of sin; but the Spirit is life, because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies, because of His Spirit dwelling in you.” (Rom. 8:10, etc.) And again he says, in the Epistle to the Romans, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die.” (Rom. 8:13) [Now by these words] he does not prohibit them from living their lives in the flesh, for he was himself in the flesh when he wrote to them; but he cuts away the lusts of the flesh, those which bring death upon a man. And for this reason he says in continuation, “But if ye through the Spirit do mortify the works of the flesh, ye shall live. For whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.”

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian also give a good explanation of this passage in his second apology,

[B]Chap. XLVI.—It Is the Works of the Flesh, Not the Substance of the Flesh, Which St. Paul Always Condemns.

You may notice that the apostle everywhere condemns the works of the flesh in such a way as to appear to condemn the flesh; but no one can suppose him to have any such view as this, since he goes on to suggest another sense, even though somewhat resembling it. For when he actually declares that “they who are in the flesh cannot please God,” he immediately recalls the statement from an heretical sense to a sound one, by adding, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.” (Romans 8:8-9) Now, by denying them to be in the flesh who yet obviously were in the flesh, he showed that they were not living amidst the works of the flesh, and therefore that they who could not please God were not those who were in the flesh, but only those who were living after the flesh; whereas they pleased God, who, although existing in the flesh, were yet walking after the Spirit. And, again, he says that “the body is dead;” but it is “because of sin,” even as “the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Romans 8:10) When, however, he thus sets life in opposition to the death which is constituted in the flesh, he unquestionably promises the life of righteousness to the same state for which he determined the death of sin, But unmeaning is this opposition which he makes between the “life” and the “death,” if the life is not there where that very thing is to which he opposes it—even the death which is to be extirpated of course from the body. Now, if life thus extirpates death from the body, it can accomplish this only by penetrating thither where that is which it is excluding. But why am I resorting to knotty arguments, when the apostle treats the subject with perfect plainness? “For if,” says he, “the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Jesus from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies, because of His Spirit that dwelleth in you;” (Romans 8:11) so that even if a person were to assume that the soul is “the mortal body,” he would (since he cannot possibly deny that the flesh is this also) be constrained to acknowledge a restoration even of the flesh, in consequence of its participation in the selfsame state. From the following words, moreover, you may learn that it is the works of the flesh which are condemned, and not the flesh itself: “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: for if ye live after the flesh ye shall die; but if ye, through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:12-13) Now (that I may answer each point separately), since salvation is promised to those who are living in the flesh, but walking after the Spirit, it is no longer the flesh which is an adversary to salvation, but the working of the flesh. When, however, this operativeness of the flesh is done away with, which is the cause of death, the flesh is shown to be safe, since it is freed from the cause of death. “For the law,” says he, “of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death,” (Romans 8:2)—that, surely, which he previously mentioned as dwelling in our members. (Romans 8:17, 20, 23) Our members, therefore, will no longer be subject to the law of death, because they cease to serve that of sin, from both which they have been set free. “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and through sin condemned sin in the flesh” (Romans 8:3)—not the flesh in sin, for the house is not to be condemned with its inhabitant. He said, indeed, that “sin dwelleth in our body.” (Romans 7:20) But the condemnation of sin is the acquittal of the flesh, just as its non-condemnation subjugates it to the law of sin and death. In like manner, he called “the carnal mind” first “death,” (Romans 8:6) and afterwards “enmity against God;” (Romans 8:7) but he never predicated this of the flesh itself. But to what then, you will say, must the carnal mind be ascribed, if it be not to the carnal substance itself? I will allow your objection, if you will prove to me that the flesh has any discernment of its own. If, however, it has no conception of anything without the soul, you must understand that the carnal mind must be referred to the soul, although ascribed sometimes to the flesh, on the ground that it is ministered to for the flesh and through the flesh. And therefore (the apostle) says that “sin dwelleth in the flesh,” because the soul by which sin is provoked has its temporary lodging in the flesh, which is doomed indeed to death, not however on its own account, but on account of sin. For he says in another passage also “How is it that you conduct yourselves as if you were even now living in the world?” (Colossians 2:20) where he is not writing to dead persons, but to those who ought to have ceased to live after the ways of the world.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 12:18 AM
Why is he bringing Rom. 8:10 into this, when that verse is referring not to living in the flesh vs living in the spirit, but to the Resurrection?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 12:21 AM
When, however, he thus sets life in opposition to the death which is constituted in the flesh, he unquestionably promises the life of righteousness to the same state for which he determined the death of sin, But unmeaning is this opposition which he makes between the “life” and the “death,” if the life is not there where that very thing is to which he opposes it—even the death which is to be extirpated of course from the body.

UUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh.....what?! :confused

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 12:24 AM
Butch....sorry, but I cannot understand a thing he is saying (in the second apology). Could you please put this into simpler terms?

Nomad
Apr 18th 2010, 12:26 AM
I guess Irenaeus wasn't into easy reading! :lol:

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 12:27 AM
I guess Irenaeus wasn't into easy reading! :lol:

Hahaha...Ya. Is there a comic book version of this?

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 12:35 AM
What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

I'm going through Romans with various commentaries, and they all seem to agree that the body is dead means that it has death in it because of sin, but that is true for both Christians and non-Christians, so ho can it be impingent on whether or not wehave Christ in us?Go back a little.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
A law of sin in our members leads to death. This cannot be physical death. This is death of the soul.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
The answer to the question of who shall deliver me from the body of sin that leads to soulish death is Jesus. Now carry this over into the next chapter.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Believers have the Spirit. They are free from the body of sin and death. How?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
We were crucified with Christ 2000 years ago -Romans 6. If we believe that (walk after the Spirit)

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It plainly says.....

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
You are not in the flesh and are in the Spirit because of the circumcision of Christ and operation of God by the one Spirit Baptism into the body of Christ 2000 years ago. And in v10 is a conjunction (continuative) connecting v9 with v10. They should be read together.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. v10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
The Spirit would not be in you if you were not crucified, dead, buried, and raised with Christ. The Spirit is only in those that have been circumcised (useless flesh cut away and discarded) by Christ. IOW, the body is dead because of sin, because Christ condemned sin in the flesh through His cross.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Unless the passage is referring to us crucifying the lusts and desires of the flesh, in which case would only be true of believers...those who have Christ in them.We do not crucify the flesh or the lusts and desires of the flesh. How could we since Christ already did? Do we need to redo what Christ did? Was His cross not enough? We have through belief in what Christ did -past tense- crucified the flesh with the affections and lust thereof. We do not and cannot resurrect the old man. He is dead. If you sin it is the new man sinning, not the old. In the same manner (Likewise) that Christ died once, we are to account ourselves to have died once when He died.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
The commentaries do not follow the progression through from chapters 6 and 7. Of couse most do not even understand 7 so how could they?

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 12:37 AM
Also, is verse 11 referring to the resurrection?No it is not. The context is our walk....


Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
and later "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities"

BroRog
Apr 18th 2010, 12:38 AM
What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

I'm going through Romans with various commentaries, and they all seem to agree that the body is dead means that it has death in it because of sin, but that is true for both Christians and non-Christians, so ho can it be impingent on whether or not wehave Christ in us?

Unless the passage is referring to us crucifying the lusts and desires of the flesh, in which case would only be true of believers...those who have Christ in them.

Any thoughts? Are my commentaries off?I don't agree with your commentaries. "The body is dead" refers to the condemnation that we deserve. He explains himself a little further down. To summarize his picture: he is trying to explain the concept of a renewed, reborn, spirit. God gives each child of his a reborn spirit, one that is very sympathetic with Jesus Christ. In the following passage, he refers to our reborn spirit as "a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba Father!"


For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.Notice how he puts it: you have received a spirit. When you become a child of God, he gave you a spirit that cries, "Abba Father". Those who know the passion story are familiar with the fact that Jesus said "Abba Father" in the same context as when he also prayed, "not my will but your will be done." This reflects Jesus' attitude of submission and his love for God. That same attitude is in those who have his same kind of spirit."

Now that we have reviewed what Paul means by "the spirit of Christ", which is our own reborn spirit, having the same attitudes and values of Christ, we can go back up and review what he has already said.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

As we will see later in the chapter, when a person has the spirit of Christ, he means that the person has the same attitude of submission and love for God that Christ had. Just as Christ cried, "Abba Father", the person who has the spirit like his will also cry out, "Abba Father!" Paul refers to our reborn spirit as "a spirit of adoption as sons", and he says that the Spirit will testify with our spirit that we are children of God. If that reborn spirit is in you, then we can know certain things about you.

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is life because of righteousness.

The body isn't dead; in fact, it is very much alive according to Paul's earlier statement. He points out that a law of his members is at war with another law of his mind. And it is this warfare between the two that seems to be a problem for those who are attempting to gain God's favor through their moral behavior. The body is "dead" in the sense that through it we are ineffective at gaining God's favor. But body is also "dead" in the sense that our moral ineptitude condemns us.

But even though our body condemns us because of our sin, we have life because God has granted us justification in view of our reborn spirit. That is what he means by "the spirit is life." Even though we deserve judgment, because we have this reborn spirit, God will grant us life instead.

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Paul refers to our coming resurrection. While someone might unsuccessfully attempt to gain immorality some other way, The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead will give immortality to those who have a reborn spirit.

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


What does Paul mean by "live according to the flesh." Some Christians think Paul is talking about living in licentiousness, lacking moral discipline. But I think Paul is saying just the opposite. To paraphrase, I think Paul is saying, "If you are attempting to live a life of moral discipline without having this reborn spirit, you must die. But if you have this reborn spirit and you are committed to moral discipline, you will live. Living according to the flesh, in this context, is living life without the reborn spirit God gives to us.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 12:41 AM
We do not crucify the flesh or the lusts and desires of the flesh.


This is not true.

Gal. 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 12:48 AM
The body is "dead" in the sense that through it we are ineffective at gaining God's favor.

You mean, gaining God's favor through works of righteousness apart from Christ? Yes, of course that is true, and that makes sense.

May I ask where you got your interpretation from? I've never heard this one, but it seems to make the most sense.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 12:48 AM
What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

It applies to both, but especially the second. Literally it says: "If Christ is in you then, on the one hand your body is dead because of sin, but on the other hand your spirit is alive because of righteousness" (εἰ δὲ Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, τὸ μὲν σῶμα νεκρὸν διὰ ἁμαρτίαν, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζωὴ διὰ δικαιοσύνην).

"Your body is dead" is usually understood as meaning "subject to death" or "mortal," and this interpretation fits in best with the mention of the resurrection in verse 11 (And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you).

BroRog
Apr 18th 2010, 12:50 AM
You mean, gaining God's favor through works of righteousness apart from Christ? Yes, of course that is true, and that makes sense.

May I ask where you got your interpretation from? I've never heard this one, but it seems to make the most sense.I used to study at a place called "The McKenzie Study Center" when I lived in Eugene Oregon. I studied Romans with Dr. Jack Crabtree for about 15 years off and on. I'm still plumbing the depths of that book even today.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 12:50 AM
No it is not. The context is our walk....


Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
and later "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities"

Well, if its not, then what does the passage mean by "quicken our mortal bodies," and why does it make a comparison between the bodily resurrection of Christ and this quickening?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 12:53 AM
I used to study at a place called "The McKenzie Study Center" when I lived in Eugene Oregon. I studied Romans with Dr. Jack Crabtree for about 15 years off and on. I'm still plumbing the depths of that book even today.

That's awesome!!!!! Is there any way to find out how the actual recipients of this letter understood certain passages? I mean, it's so complex, but the recipients were common laypeople, right? They didn't hold doctorates in theology, so how could we expect them to understand it if there is so much confusion today?

BroRog
Apr 18th 2010, 12:53 AM
It applies to both, but especially the second. Literally it says: If Christ is in you, then on the one hand your body is dead because of sin, but on the other hand your spirit is alive because of righteousness (εἰ δὲ Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, τὸ μὲν σῶμα νεκρὸν διὰ ἁμαρτίαν, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζωὴ διὰ δικαιοσύνην).How did you get the Greek to show up? Nice job.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 12:54 AM
Hi, Radagast;

What does this mean?:


(εἰ δὲ Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, τὸ μὲν σῶμα νεκρὸν διὰ ἁμαρτίαν, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζωὴ διὰ δικαιοσύνην).

Thanks :)

Nomad
Apr 18th 2010, 01:00 AM
Hi, Radagast;

What does this mean?:

It's simply the Greek rendering of Romans 8:10.

BroRog
Apr 18th 2010, 01:01 AM
That's awesome!!!!! Is there any way to find out how the actual recipients of this letter understood certain passages? I mean, it's so complex, but the recipients were common laypeople, right? They didn't hold doctorates in theology, so how could we expect them to understand it if there is so much confusion today?Well, that question deserves a long answer. But I'm really not sure how we can know what the actual recipients understood. A first century reader would have the advantage of knowing the language, and the background, and be familiar with a first century worldview. We have the advantage of search tools and other Bible study technology. The short answer is that it takes time and effort and discipline and humility and a willingness to change my mind when the text reveals my mistakes.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 01:13 AM
This is not true.

Gal. 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.Huh? I said that verse -have -past tense
Not do, not will, not are going to, have -past tense

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 01:15 AM
That's awesome!!!!! Is there any way to find out how the actual recipients of this letter understood certain passages? I mean, it's so complex, but the recipients were common laypeople, right? They didn't hold doctorates in theology, so how could we expect them to understand it if there is so much confusion today?By the Spirit? Peter said many twisted Paul's words not understanding them. Today is not different than then.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 01:16 AM
Huh? I said that verse -have -past tense
Not do, not will, not are going to, have -past tense

I'm sorry...I do not understand what you are trying to say here. Which verse are you referring to?

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 01:17 AM
Hi, Radagast;

What does this mean?:

εἰ δὲ Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, τὸ μὲν σῶμα νεκρὸν διὰ ἁμαρτίαν, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζωὴ διὰ δικαιοσύνην

It's the Greek for Romans 8:10. The bolded words are usually not fully translated, but mean "on the one hand ... but on the other hand." This Greek usage here shows that the two parts belong together, and the "if" applies to both:

Literally: "If Christ is in you then, on the one hand your body is dead because of sin, but on the other hand your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

"Your body is dead" is usually understood as meaning "subject to death" or "mortal," and this interpretation fits in best with the mention of the resurrection in verse 11.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 01:18 AM
By the Spirit? Peter said many twisted Paul's words not understanding them. Today is not different than then.

Ya. That's true...but there are also many very well-meaning and sincere people who love the Lord who hold diferences in interpretation. Not everyone is out to manipulate Scripture.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 01:19 AM
How did you get the Greek to show up? Nice job.

Cut and paste from http://bible.johndyer.name/

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 01:19 AM
It's the Greek for Romans 8:10. The bolded words are usually not fully translated, but mean "on the one hand ... but on the other hand." This Greek usage here shows that the two parts belong together, and the "if" applies to both:

Literally: "If Christ is in you then, on the one hand your body is dead because of sin, but on the other hand your spirit is alive because of righteousness."



"Your body is dead" is usually understood as meaning "subject to death" or "mortal," and this interpretation fits in best with the mention of the resurrection in verse 11.

Oh, okay....I undersand. Thanks :)

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 01:21 AM
The one you quoted -Gal. 5:24. You quoted me saying

"We do not crucify the flesh or the lusts and desires of the flesh."
then you said

"this is not true"
Then I said

"I said that verse -have -past tense
Not do, not will, not are going to, have -past tense"

Here is where and what I said
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?208936-Rom.-8-10&p=2390182#post2390182

"We have through belief in what Christ did -past tense- crucified the flesh with the affections and lust thereof."

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 01:22 AM
That's awesome!!!!! Is there any way to find out how the actual recipients of this letter understood certain passages?

In general, if any passage has an obvious meaning, given the meaning of the Greek words used (bearing in mind that Paul uses certain words like "flesh" with a special theological meaning), then the obvious meaning is usually the right one.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 01:23 AM
Ya. That's true...but there are also many very well-meaning and sincere people who love the Lord who hold diferences in interpretation. Not everyone is out to manipulate Scripture.Yes I know. I didn't see it for 17 years. There are many things that keep us from seeing. Oh, and I did not say anyone was manipulating Scripture.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 01:36 AM
In general, if any passage has an obvious meaning, given the meaning of the Greek words used (bearing in mind that Paul uses certain words like "flesh" with a special theological meaning), then the obvious meaning is usually the right one.


Ya, that would be the obvious assumption, so then when did people start moving away from the obvious and complicating it?

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 01:50 AM
Well, if its not, then what does the passage mean by "quicken our mortal bodies,"healing? snake bite? drinking deadly things? beaten and left for dead? Hunger? The chapter lists some things. My contention is not that it is not also Rom 8:23 ......the redemption of our body. Or applied to Rom 8:35....sword -physical death. I know I should not have just said -no- to resurrection. That was dumb. I just don't know why that is the only quickening most want to believe in.


and why does it make a comparison between the bodily resurrection of Christ and this quickening?I don't see a comparison that limits the power of the Spirit to a future resurrection. The context has here and now and future. The verse simply says the same Spirit that raised Christ will quicken your mortal body w/o limitation.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 01:57 AM
Ya, that would be the obvious assumption, so then when did people start moving away from the obvious and complicating it?

Probably when a gap opened between "ordinary language" and "Bible language." When you read a translation from Paul's "ordinary Greek" to our "ordinary English," most of his letters are hit-you-between-the-eyes writing.

Sometimes you need a bit of help with his first-century metaphors and illustrations. Paul writes about the "armour of God" to people who had seen lots of soldiers in armour, and about "running a race" to people who had been to the Olympic Games. Sometimes there are tricky translation issues that need to be explained. Sometimes one verse needs to be read in the light of another. But most of the time people who say "the verse doesn't mean what it says" aren't being helpful.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 02:06 AM
Well, if its not, then what does the passage mean by "quicken our mortal bodies," and why does it make a comparison between the bodily resurrection of Christ and this quickening?

Perhaps a better translation of 8:11 is And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you (NIV) or If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you (ESV).

The bolded phrase is the Greek word zōopoieō (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2227&t=KJV) = "make alive."

Nomad
Apr 18th 2010, 02:12 AM
Sirus,

I hope and pray that you give up this nonsense. Your interpretation of Scripture is extremely dangerous to the members of this message board. Please, by all means, grow a conscience.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 02:16 AM
Sirus,

I hope and pray that you give up this nonsense. Your interpretation of Scripture is extremely dangerous to the members of this message board. Please, by all means, grow a conscience.What is dangerous about it? Seriously?

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 02:20 AM
Sirus,

I hope and pray that you give up this nonsense. Your interpretation of Scripture is extremely dangerous to the members of this message board. Please, by all means, grow a conscience.You don't believe you have power over sin because of the cross? You don't believe you are alive unto God? You don't believe that all things work together, that if God said you are going to Rome to preach the gospel and you were ship wreck and bit by a poisonous snake that it would not effect you? That's very sad.

Nomad
Apr 18th 2010, 02:33 AM
You don't believe you have power over sin because of the cross? You don't believe you are alive unto God? You don't believe that all things work together, that if God said you are going to Rome to preach the gospel and you were ship wreck and bit by a poisonous snake that it would not effect you? That's very sad.

What do any of these things have to do with Romans 8:10? Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with my charge. Congratulations, you've made my point better than my best efforts. Your propensity to draw on foreign contexts, in order to twist Scripture, is laughable.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 02:53 AM
What do any of these things have to do with Romans 8:10? Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with my charge.My comment is what I said about Romans 8:10. Are you going to answer or not? How is what I said about Rom 8:10.......

power over sin because of the cross
alive unto God
all things work together

....dangerous?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 03:14 AM
The one you quoted -Gal. 5:24. You quoted me saying

"We do not crucify the flesh or the lusts and desires of the flesh."
then you said

"this is not true"
Then I said

"I said that verse -have -past tense
Not do, not will, not are going to, have -past tense"
Here is where and what I said
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?208936-Rom.-8-10&p=2390182#post2390182

"We have through belief in what Christ did -past tense- crucified the flesh with the affections and lust thereof."


Yes, through the power of Christ, the believer crucifies the flesh. I don't see where the argument is. You responded that the believer does not crucify the flesh, but the Galtians verse says otherwise. It doesn't matter whether we do it on a daily basis, or whether we have done it only once in the past.

I do belive we do it on a daily basis, though.

Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 03:17 AM
Butch....sorry, but I cannot understand a thing he is saying (in the second apology). Could you please put this into simpler terms?

Hi Welder,

Basically he is saying that Paul was not referring to the physical flesh but to the works of the flesh. Apparently there were those (Marcion) who claimed that Paul was denouncing the flesh (substance), Tertullian argues that when Paul says the flesh he is not referring to the physical flesh but is referring to the works of the flesh. It is the works of the flesh that bring death. That is why he contrasts life with death and flesh with Spirit. The works of the flesh bring death, the Spirit brings life. So, if one walks in the the works of the flesh he shall die, if one walks in the Spirit he shall live.

Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 03:21 AM
Why is he bringing Rom. 8:10 into this, when that verse is referring not to living in the flesh vs living in the spirit, but to the Resurrection?

Romans 8:10 isn't about the resurrection it is about how one walks.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 03:22 AM
Hi Welder,

Basically he is saying that Paul was not referring to the physical flesh but to the works of the flesh. Apparently there were those (Marcion) who claimed that Paul was denouncing the flesh (substance), Tertullian argues that when Paul says the flesh he is not referring to the physical flesh but is referring to the works of the flesh. It is the works of the flesh that bring death. That is why he contrasts life with death and flesh with Spirit. The works of the flesh bring death, the Spirit brings life. So, if one walks in the the works of the flesh he shall die, if one walks in the Spirit he shall live.

Oh, w w, okay. I thought he was talking about the desires of the flesh. Could he be talking about both? After all, don't self-righteous works of the flesh often accompany a fleshly form of pride?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 03:23 AM
Romans 8:10 isn't about the resurrection it is about how one walks.

I don't see it that way. I see it as being about the Resurrection

Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 03:31 AM
Oh, w w, okay. I thought he was talking about the desires of the flesh. Could he be talking about both? After all, don't self-righteous works of the flesh often accompany a fleshly form of pride?

He is speaking of the desires of the flesh, these are the works that bring death, the evil ones,, not desires like eating or drinking or things like that. Paul's argument is that those who live according to the flesh (according to the works of the flesh) shall die.

Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 03:38 AM
I don't see it that way. I see it as being about the Resurrection

Verse 11 speaks of the quickening or resurrection, verse 10 speaks of

Romans 8:9-10 ( YLT )
And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ—this one is not His;
and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,

I highlighted the correlation between the two verses. Paul says that the body is dead because of sin, but if it is infused with the Spirit as Irenaeus says it shall live.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 03:40 AM
Tertullian argues that when Paul says the flesh he is not referring to the physical flesh but is referring to the works of the flesh.

Tertullian became a heretic. I'd be cautious about using his works.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 03:43 AM
Yes, through the power of Christ, the believer crucifies the flesh. I don't see where the argument is. You responded that the believer does not crucify the flesh, but the Galtians verse says otherwise. It doesn't matter whether we do it on a daily basis, or whether we have done it only once in the past.

I do belive we do it on a daily basis, though.Well I don't want to continue to detract from your main reason for the thread unless you want to continue. I'll finish with....
I did not say
"through the power of Christ, the believer crucifies the flesh"
in a daily sense. Galatians does not say we do either. It says we did in the past, once, by faith, just as Romans 6 says Christ died once to sin and dieth no more -Likewise- we die once to sin and dieth no more, which was written by the same man by the Spirit. You cannot crucify yourself. No man ever has. It is impossible. You certainly cannot do it daily. That's kinda sick and twisted really.
I believe in God that calls things that are not, as though they are. His word says I am already dead because I was crucified with Christ. When I believe that and thank Him for what He did to me and for me, I do not sin. It works 100%. My will or desire to do that which is good on my own can be and usually is over powered by the law of sin in my members. It is not until you believe it is only by what Jesus did for you and to you, completely outside of yourself, that sin will not have dominion over you. If you think you have anything to do with it or that Christ needs your help crucifying what He already crucified, sin will have dominion over you.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 03:44 AM
He is speaking of the desires of the flesh, these are the works that bring death, the evil ones,, not desires like eating or drinking or things like that. Paul's argument is that those who live according to the flesh (according to the works of the flesh) shall die.

Oh....yes, of course. I completly misunderstood you. Thanks

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 03:45 AM
Verse 11 speaks of the quickening or resurrection, verse 10 speaks of

Romans 8:9-10 ( YLT )
And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ—this one is not His;
and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,

I highlighted the correlation between the two verses. Paul says that the body is dead because of sin, but if it is infused with the Spirit as Irenaeus says it shall live.


YES!!!! Oh, wow, I'm batting a thousand tonight. Thanks for the clarification

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 03:46 AM
He is speaking of the desires of the flesh, these are the works that bring death, the evil ones,, not desires like eating or drinking or things like that. Paul's argument is that those who live according to the flesh (according to the works of the flesh) shall die.

I'm sorry, but you can't just get up and lay down your own interpretation of Scripture as fact.

Paul uses "flesh" as a special theological term in Romans 8:9 (some modern translations say "sinful nature"). But in verses 10-11 Paul says "body" and means "body." The adjective "mortal" in verse 11 makes that clear.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 03:47 AM
I believe in God that calls things that are not, as though they are. His word says I am already dead because I was crucified with Christ. When I believe that and thank Him for what He did to me and for me, I do not sin. It works 100%. .

Really? So you never have a prideful thought, or get irritated and frustrated with people, or worry about anything, EVER? Are you saying that as soon as we become Christians, we will never run another red light, or accidentally go over the speed limit? The Bible claims that we do sin, even if it's unintentionally.

Well, I don't really agree with this, but thanks for engaging me, anyhow :)

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 03:48 AM
Romans 8:9-10 ( YLT )
And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ—this one is not His;
and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,

I highlighted the correlation between the two verses. Paul says that the body is dead because of sin, but if it is infused with the Spirit as Irenaeus says it shall live.

But "flesh" and "body" are different words there.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 04:05 AM
Really? So you never have a prideful thought, or get irritated and frustrated with people, or worry about anything, EVER? Are you saying that as soon as we become Christians, we will never run another red light, or accidentally go over the speed limit? The Bible claims that we do sin, even if it's unintentionally.

Well, I don't really agree with this, but thanks for engaging me, anyhow :)Not at all. I can sin anytime I want to.
I said
"God calls things that are not, as though they are" "When I believe that" "I am already dead because I was crucified with Christ" "and thank Him for what He did to me and for me, I do not sin. It works 100%." "When I believe that".

If you do not believe that you have not tried that. It is called "a (THE) way of escape" for every temptation. It does not say many ways. One way. The cross.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 04:11 AM
It's the Greek for Romans 8:10. The bolded words are usually not fully translated, but mean "on the one hand ... but on the other hand." This Greek usage here shows that the two parts belong together, and the "if" applies to both:

Literally: "If Christ is in you then, on the one hand your body is dead because of sin, but on the other hand your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

The ESV, as is often the case, has the best translation of this verse into modern English: But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 04:37 AM
But "flesh" and "body" are different words there.Old man. Body flesh members are all here. Are they really different?


Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The ESV, as is often the case, has the best translation of this verse into modern English: But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.Why is the body dead? Follow the progression. What the author (the Spirit) is saying.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in ChristJesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 04:42 AM
Not at all. I can sin anytime I want to.

Yes, but the question is, do you WANT to? I think both of us would agree that we do not want to sin. It goes against the Spirit inside of us.


I said
"God calls things that are not, as though they are" "When I believe that" "I am already dead because I was crucified with Christ" "and thank Him for what He did to me and for me, I do not sin. It works 100%." "When I believe that".

If you do not believe that you have not tried that.

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2010, 04:44 AM
The ESV, as is often the case, has the best translation of this verse into modern English: But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ya....that makes sense. I don't typically use the ESV, but it sounds like they nailed it here.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 05:40 AM
Old man. Body flesh members are all here. Are they really different?

Sometimes, yes.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 05:43 AM
Yes, but the question is, do you WANT to? I think both of us would agree that we do not want to sin. It goes against the Spirit inside of us.

Sometimes I want to sin, but I don't want to want to sin, if you see what I mean (Romans 7:23).


I'm sorry. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

Neither did I.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 06:15 AM
Yes, but the question is, do you WANT to? I think both of us would agree that we do not want to sin. It goes against the Spirit inside of us.I agree. The examples you gave me were

"prideful thought, or get irritated and frustrated with people, or worry about anything"
These are not temptations. There's no period on the battlefield. These mostly just happen. Very habitual, but over time through maturity are lessened. Sins I am talking about are through temptations that put us on the battlefield. They give us time to think and choose. They are described in Romans 7:15-23. A lot of believers, if not most, lose here. I used to. That's why so many think it is the normal christian life and that it is Paul pre-conversion. It is not.


I'm sorry. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.It is only in believing the gospel....that we are already dead, buried, and raised, because we were put in the body of Christ to be


crucified when He was crucified -with Christ -in Christ
buried when He was buried -with Christ -in Christ
raised when He was raised -with Christ -in Christ

that sin does not have dominion.

Let me put it this way. When I used to be tempted in a 'stronghold' sin, I did not want to sin. I knew I shouldn't. I knew the bible said I was free. I prayed, went to church, read and studied the word and praised and worshiped Him, asked for power and deliverance, etc.... What was I doing?


Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 ....the law of my mind
Rom 7:25 .........So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God

But that wasn't enough. It wasn't the gospel -believe- it was law, works, flesh. I still sinned. Do I die daily (not in the Bible)? Crucify my flesh (not in the Bible)? Have I not fed the white dog more than the black dog? What am I doing wrong? Why isn't this working? I know it's not God, the problem is me. Many question their salvation and on and on the religious wheel spins. What have I or have I not done etc....


Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:18 .........but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

....and all we know is that it is not abundant life, we are not free indeed, but are in fact in many respects more miserable than before we came to Christ. This was Paul's point.


Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do. We get born again, are not under law but under grace (without the law), but religion tells we must do this and that (law) in order to maintain our salvation, when Christ just said believe in me (without law).

Paul is describing a believer who's old man is dead and free from law


Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
But we put ourselves back under law, sin by our own efforts, and die. Knowing the hope of the gospel, our first love, we say and ask


Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
The answer is the cross.


Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
We are dead (crucified) and alive (Spirit in you) because of Christ.


Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
We are only told to believe on Him.


Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
......
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
The reason Paul goes into this illustration


Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
is because of


Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
He is talking to believers that are not walking as believers because they do not understand they are already -because of a past event- crucified with Christ.


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
So if you want to think you crucify anything. Or that you doing anything other than believing the gospel will accomplish victory over sin. Think again.


1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 06:56 AM
I agree. The examples you gave me were

"prideful thought, or get irritated and frustrated with people, or worry about anything"
These are not temptations. There's no period on the battlefield. These mostly just happen.

There's certainly no period on the battlefield if you instantly give into temptation.

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 07:17 AM
if there's no temptation you cannot give into temptation
So you never have a prideful thought, or get irritated and frustrated with people, or worry about anything, EVER? ..........The Bible claims that we do sin, even if it's unintentionally.

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 07:29 AM
if there's no temptation you cannot give into temptation

Sins don't "just happen."

Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 10:59 AM
Tertullian became a heretic. I'd be cautious about using his works.

Can you give any evidence that supports this? I know he joined the Montanists late in his life but can you find anything that the Montanisits taught that would be heretical? From what I have seen they were simply more stick in their application of Scripture than most, I don't believe they taught doctrines that would have been considered heretical. Tertullian wrote two apologies for the faith and he wrote against some of the heretical teachings of his day. He was from the accounts I have heard considierd a brilliant man, well educated and well versed in the Scriptures, I find is hard to believe that after writing all of this in defense of the faith, he somehow suddenly believed some false teachings.

Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 11:08 AM
But "flesh" and "body" are different words there.

Paul frequently uses different words to describe one concept.

Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 11:20 AM
I'm sorry, but you can't just get up and lay down your own interpretation of Scripture as fact.

Paul uses "flesh" as a special theological term in Romans 8:9 (some modern translations say "sinful nature"). But in verses 10-11 Paul says "body" and means "body." The adjective "mortal" in verse 11 makes that clear.

Well, if your body is dead how did you type this post?

Special theological term? It seems to me that Paul was writing to a bunch of new converts, who knew nothing of special theological terms. I believe "Special theological term" is a modern term which only confuses the matter. I think you are going to have a rough time trying to refute Tertullian's argument seeing that by having written written your post your have proven his argument

Gillian
Apr 18th 2010, 11:40 AM
What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

The body is dead or lost before Christ come in, when Christ come in make your spirit quicken by Holy Spirit as He is Life.

I'm going through Romans with various commentaries, and they all seem to agree that the body is dead means that it has death in it because of sin, but that is true for both Christians and non-Christians, so ho can it be impingent on whether or not wehave Christ in us?

Unless the passage is referring to us crucifying the lusts and desires of the flesh, in which case would only be true of believers...those who have Christ in them.

Any thoughts? Are my commentaries off?

while fleshy body alway try to be alive as it pretand to be true source of Life ever it only live for a shadow, since it alway tempt you feeling more thrill in temps , make alive, but in reality it dead, as it is not enterlity.
we are to crucifying the flesh daily in struggle.

Gillian

Radagast
Apr 18th 2010, 11:52 AM
Well, if your body is dead how did you type this post?

I seem to have heard that argument before (Genesis 3:4).


Special theological term? It seems to me that Paul was writing to a bunch of new converts, who knew nothing of special theological terms. I believe "Special theological term" is a modern term which only confuses the matter.

The fact is that the letters of Paul use a number of Greek words with meanings specific to Christian theology, but the way he writes explains the meaning of the words. The most famous example is agapē, a specific kind of love, which is explained in 1 Corinthians 13.

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2010, 01:09 PM
I believe the following is saying that the old is considered dead when we put on Christ.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Lk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

Firstfruits

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 03:33 PM
Well, if your body is dead how did you type this post?

I seem to have heard that argument before (Genesis 3:4).
A&E were no more 'dead' after they sinned than before they sinned.
They were made -formed of the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7, Gen 3:23)
mortal, earthy, corruptible (1Co 15:36-38, 42-49, 53-54)
needing the tree of life to escape mortaity (Gen 3:22, Eze 47:12, Rev 22:2).

shalt surely die
Hebrew- mûth mûth= die die, dying you will die, as good as dead, you are a dead man!
It is not immediate. It is a promise, a warning, a guarantee.
They were banished from the garden, separated from the tree of life. Death was certain the day they disobeyed.

another example of the same Hebrew.


1Ki 2:40 And Shimei arose, and saddled his ass, and went to Gath to Achish to seek his servants: and Shimei went, and brought his servants from Gath.
1Ki 2:41 And it was told Solomon that Shimei had gone from Jerusalem to Gath, and was come again.
1Ki 2:42 And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2010, 03:41 PM
I believe the following is saying that the old is considered dead when we put on Christ.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Lk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

Firstfruits

According to the scriptures we put on the new man by the renewing of our minds, we are to have the mind of Christ.

Firstfruits

Sirus
Apr 18th 2010, 04:06 PM
It also says
we [already] have the mind of Christ -1Co 2:16
the new man is [already has been] created in righteousness and true holiness -Eph 4:24
the new man is renewed in knowledge after the image [already] created -Col 3:10

Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 04:57 PM
Radagast----I seem to have heard that argument before (Genesis 3:4).

That doesn't support you argument. If the body is dead how did you post?



The fact is that the letters of Paul use a number of Greek words with meanings specific to Christian theology, but the way he writes explains the meaning of the words. The most famous example is agapē, a specific kind of love, which is explained in 1 Corinthians 13.

The fact? Can you give me some type of evidence that agape meant some special form of love to the first century Christians. It is my understanding that agape was a rather common word used for love in the first century/

BroRog
Apr 18th 2010, 05:48 PM
We seemed to have gotten off the track. What else can we gain from the immediate context?