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Butch5
Apr 18th 2010, 11:19 PM
Since we seem to always be at odds in our methods of interpretation, I would like to suggest this PDF Book, "Common Sense." I read this today and it is very well written and David Bercot's reasoning is logical and most importantly honest. He is a title lawyer and gives seven principles for reading and understanding documents which he then applies to the Scriptures. It is a full book that is now out of print, which I found to be excellent. In it he brings up hard questions which the Christian, if he is honest with himself must answer. He challenges the Christian to be intellectually honest with the Scriptures.

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/product1709.html?__utma=1.227811779.1257985161.127 1591080.1271632119.19&__utmb=1&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1271632119.19.3.utmccn%3D(organic)%7Cutmc sr%3Dgoogle%7Cutmctr%3Dscroll%2Bpublishing%7Cutmcm d%3Dorganic&__utmv=-&__utmk=146572469

Slug1
Apr 19th 2010, 02:11 AM
Shouldn't we all be spiritually and faithfully honest with God, instead? :P

I want to "know" God, not only know "about" God.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Can't logically read about, nor use logic by reading scripture to understand this... must be experienced by allowing the Holy Spirit freedom in us and to also manifest through us.

kay-gee
Apr 19th 2010, 02:50 AM
Amen Butch5! Bible mis-interpreation is growing at an alarming rate. I will look for the book when and if I ever ge to the main land. Thanks

all the best...

markedward
Apr 19th 2010, 05:02 AM
Shouldn't we all be spiritually and faithfully honest with God, instead?Why do you think that a person isn't spiritually and faithfully honest with God simply because they also use reason and logic? Who are you to claim that a person don't "know" God simply because they know "about" God as well? Your whole post infers that "reason" is opposed to "faith", but the OP never made such a split. You did. This isn't just rhetoric I'm using... I'm actually asking you: do you have a basis for this dichotomy between "faith" and "reason"? What part of Scripture can you provide that proves the two are mutually exclusive?

Receive the Holy Spirit and he will guide you, Scripture says. But it does not say you can't use reason in addition to your faith. Seven times in Acts we are told that Paul "reasoned" with others about Jesus Christ. He used reason in addition to the Holy Spirit's guidance. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit who guided him to use his reason.

You jumped into the thread and touted that reason can't trump faith. No one said it could. Reason is not bad. Reason is not wrong. Reason is given to us by God, to use as a tool for his glory. Stop making a false dichotomy between faith and reason.

Slug1
Apr 19th 2010, 09:22 PM
Why do you think that a person isn't spiritually and faithfully honest with God simply because they also use reason and logic? Who are you to claim that a person don't "know" God simply because they know "about" God as well? Your whole post infers that "reason" is opposed to "faith", but the OP never made such a split. You did. This isn't just rhetoric I'm using... I'm actually asking you: do you have a basis for this dichotomy between "faith" and "reason"? What part of Scripture can you provide that proves the two are mutually exclusive?

Receive the Holy Spirit and he will guide you, Scripture says. But it does not say you can't use reason in addition to your faith. Seven times in Acts we are told that Paul "reasoned" with others about Jesus Christ. He used reason in addition to the Holy Spirit's guidance. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit who guided him to use his reason.

You jumped into the thread and touted that reason can't trump faith. No one said it could. Reason is not bad. Reason is not wrong. Reason is given to us by God, to use as a tool for his glory. Stop making a false dichotomy between faith and reason.Dude, faith will trump reason any day every time.

The Lord can't work through a person who reasons his/her way though understanding many tasks that the Lord will do through you. If He prompts you to lay hands on a person next Sunday and pray the words that He's gonna place upon your lips because He wants this person to be healed during an altar call. Ya can't reason your way through this... nor understand the words when you do this if they come out in tongues.

So many Christians fail to be vessels because it don't line up with what "they" know about God. If Butch happens to reply to this post, one of the things he'll bring up is tongues has ceased. Well, for him and all others who know all about God, it's seems they have... for them.

For those who know God, they lay on hands, pray in tongues and whoever the Lord happened to want healed, are healed. Is tongues necessary... no, is laying on of hands necessary, no. Is understanding the Bible with all the reason in the world necessary, no. A child can do it and don't tell me a child can't because there isn't a child in the Bible who healed anyone so within reason, no child can ever be used by God as a vessel to heal another.

That is all I'm saying Mark. If this offends you, I'm sorry.

Sure, reason is needed to understand scripture but for scripture to have power... only faith and trust in God! Reason means nothing as we can't figure out "how" to be prompted, led to a person, lay hands on them, pray in tongues, and the Lord heals them. Logic and reason are out the window, dude!

Only faith, trust, surrender, obedience, and humbleness to hold this all together in a way that God can utilize.

Reasoning out the entire Bible, making it all make sense... all this logic and reason put together doesn't help you when the Lord wants to work through you.

Butch5
Apr 19th 2010, 09:32 PM
Amen Butch5! Bible mis-interpreation is growing at an alarming rate. I will look for the book when and if I ever ge to the main land. Thanks

all the best...

Hi kay-gee,

It is a download. You can get it from that link. It's a pdf file.

Butch5
Apr 19th 2010, 10:13 PM
Shouldn't we all be spiritually and faithfully honest with God, instead?

I want to "know" God, not only know "about" God.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Can't logically read about, nor use logic by reading scripture to understand this... must be experienced by allowing the Holy Spirit freedom in us and to also manifest through us.

Hi Slug1,

It is this kind of sentiment that leads many people into false doctrines and false beliefs. Just have faith and don't worry about reasoning? If you do not know the Scriptures how do you know the spirit that you say is speaking to you? I think it is rather obvious that many Christians don't know how to reason through an argument, if they did we wouldn't have so many different beliefs. This is a point that is brought out in the book. Another point that is brought out is how the Protestant Church is ripping apart the body of Christ with all of it's divisions and dissensions.

If Paul were writing to American Christians today, do you know what letter we would get? Yes, we would get the letter to the Corinthians. We have divisions, dissension, and antagonism among us. We are arrogant, prideful, and puffed up. We abuse the sacraments, we do them when we feel like it or when it is convenient, and we abuse the gifts of the Spirit. I said in another thread that for all of the problems in the Catholic church they are unified, for the problems in the Eastern Orthodox Church they are unified, even the Jw's are unified. Look at us, are we unified? Over 19,000 sects and denominations, I would hardly call that unified. Jesus had one prayer for those who would believe the apostle's words, that prayer was that they would be unified. We are not. Therefore I think we are in a great sin. The "only " Thing that Jesus prayed for us was unity and we are so far from that that it is almost inconceivable.

But, what is the reason that the Protestant Church is not unified? Is it not because we cannot agree on the Scriptures? Why is it that we cannot agree on the Scriptures? I mean, they only mean one thing. When Paul wrote a passage of Scripture he did not intend for it to have 3 or 4 different meanings. It had one meaning and one meaning only. It meant what Paul was saying to the church to whom he was writing. It is our place to figure out what that means. In order to do so we must have an understanding of what was going on in that church at that time. If you read that book it will show you how they was a dialog between Paul and the Corinthians. I Corinthians is not the first letter that Paul wrote to them, it is the first of the two we have copies of. So when you read 1 Corinthians you must understand that Paul had not only been there for quite a bit of time but had also previously written to them. When you read 1 Corinthians, you must keep in mind that it is only one letter in an on going dialog between Paul and the Corinthians. However, many never take this into account. They simply read it as if it was an instruction manual or a how to guide, how to- operate a church, how to- use Spiritual gifts, how to- perform the Lord's Supper and so on. This is "NOT" what Paul was doing. You are reading one letter in continuing dialog. It is akin to your taking a book ripping out three chapters and then telling us what happens in the book, you simply cannot do that. That is why it is "Paramount" that we reconcile "ALL" of the passages on any given subject.
The book that is suggested uses common sense principles and follows a logical path to reading documents. The author then applies those principles to the Scriptures. If one is intellectually honest with themselves and the Scriptures, they will see the logic in his reasoning and that it makes sense. He also shows the flaws with several modern methods of interpretation.
The point is that if we would learn how to interpret Scripture and be intellectually honest, we would have unity because we would come to the same conclusions. But, that would require us giving up our beloved doctrines, those that we hold so dear.
You see we are commanded to reason, which includes logic.

Mark 12:28-30 ( KJV )
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, "]The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

This is were many Christians fall short, they love the Lord with all of their heart and soul, but not their minds.

The Mighty Sword
Apr 19th 2010, 10:58 PM
Where is the "logic" in believing something you can't see???

Butch5
Apr 20th 2010, 01:01 AM
Where is the "logic" in believing something you can't see???

My post is not referencing something that we cannot see. I am speaking about the Scriptures using logic and common sense when we interpret the Scriptures. It seems when many Christians try to interpret the Scriptures common sense goes out the window. God is not a God of confusion, He said,

Isaiah 1:16-18 ( KJV )
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Christians just accept contradictions in their theology that they would never accept in a history book. For instance, Reformed believers will say that salvation is all of God, everything from start to finish, yet in the above passages God is telling the Israelites to wash themselves, to make themselves clean, to learn to do well. They will say that is OT, but at the same time they will say that God never changes, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do you see the contradiction? Now, when faced with this dilemma, most will not even consider that their doctrine might be the problem, they will go on believing just a they have, accepting the contradiction rather than scrutinizing their theology. I'm not picking on Reformed believers here because the same can be said of those who hold to free will. The point is that common sense shouldn't be the first casualty when interpreting the Scriptures.

Here's another example. Scripture says that God cannot lie. Most Christians that I have spoken to about this passage say that it means that God is incapable of lying. Is that what it means? I contend that that is not what it means. There are many things that could make prevent someone from doing something. For instance, suppose you handed me a baseball bat and said there is a dog out back, I want you to go and beat it with the bat. In response I say, I could never do such a thing, Am I saying that I am physically incapable of doing it? No, I am physically capable, however, it is so against my nature that I could not bring myself to do it. I contend that this is how the statement "God cannot lie" should be read, and Scriptures back it up. If we take the interpretation that God in incapable then we wind up with a contradiction. Scriptures says that God cannot lie, Scripture also says that Christ is the express image of God, it says that all the fullness of Godhood dwells in Christ bodily. Scripture also says that Christ was made like his brethren in"ALL" ways. Man has the ability to lie, if Christ was made like man in "all" ways then Christ must have had the ability to lie and if Christ is the express image of God they God must have the ability to lie, but chooses not to. However, even in light of this many will still say that God is incapable, meaning not having the ability. This is what I am talking about, even when logic and common sense shows us that our position cannot be correct we will not abandon it.

notuptome
Apr 20th 2010, 01:24 AM
Hi Slug1,

It is this kind of sentiment that leads many people into false doctrines and false beliefs. Just have faith and don't worry about reasoning? If you do not know the Scriptures how do you know the spirit that you say is speaking to you? I think it is rather obvious that many Christians don't know how to reason through an argument, if they did we wouldn't have so many different beliefs. This is a point that is brought out in the book. Another point that is brought out is how the Protestant Church is ripping apart the body of Christ with all of it's divisions and dissensions.
The body is in no danger of being ripped apart. Christ has declared that He will establish His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Mat 16:18


If Paul were writing to American Christians today, do you know what letter we would get? Yes, we would get the letter to the Corinthians. We have divisions, dissension, and antagonism among us. We are arrogant, prideful, and puffed up. We abuse the sacraments, we do them when we feel like it or when it is convenient, and we abuse the gifts of the Spirit. I said in another thread that for all of the problems in the Catholic church they are unified, for the problems in the Eastern Orthodox Church they are unified, even the Jw's are unified. Look at us, are we unified? Over 19,000 sects and denominations, I would hardly call that unified. Jesus had one prayer for those who would believe the apostle's words, that prayer was that they would be unified. We are not. Therefore I think we are in a great sin. The "only " Thing that Jesus prayed for us was unity and we are so far from that that it is almost inconceivable.
I rather think we have already received the entire compilation of the letters He has in mind for us. The catholic church is far from unified. There is as much dissension within the catholic church as is in the protestant church. As Christians our unity is only in Christ. It is the blood of Christ that unifies all who are born again into the body. Much of the lack of unified thought and practice in the protestant church is the result of the stratification of believers. All are on their own grown track in the Lord. Some are babes needing milk and some are mature and able to handle meat and many are somewhere in between the two. The bodies diversity is its greatest strength.


But, what is the reason that the Protestant Church is not unified? Is it not because we cannot agree on the Scriptures? Why is it that we cannot agree on the Scriptures? I mean, they only mean one thing. When Paul wrote a passage of Scripture he did not intend for it to have 3 or 4 different meanings. It had one meaning and one meaning only. It meant what Paul was saying to the church to whom he was writing. It is our place to figure out what that means. In order to do so we must have an understanding of what was going on in that church at that time. If you read that book it will show you how they was a dialog between Paul and the Corinthians. I Corinthians is not the first letter that Paul wrote to them, it is the first of the two we have copies of. So when you read 1 Corinthians you must understand that Paul had not only been there for quite a bit of time but had also previously written to them. When you read 1 Corinthians, you must keep in mind that it is only one letter in an on going dialog between Paul and the Corinthians. However, many never take this into account. They simply read it as if it was an instruction manual or a how to guide, how to- operate a church, how to- use Spiritual gifts, how to- perform the Lord's Supper and so on. This is "NOT" what Paul was doing. You are reading one letter in continuing dialog. It is akin to your taking a book ripping out three chapters and then telling us what happens in the book, you simply cannot do that. That is why it is "Paramount" that we reconcile "ALL" of the passages on any given subject.
The book that is suggested uses common sense principles and follows a logical path to reading documents. The author then applies those principles to the Scriptures. If one is intellectually honest with themselves and the Scriptures, they will see the logic in his reasoning and that it makes sense. He also shows the flaws with several modern methods of interpretation.
The point is that if we would learn how to interpret Scripture and be intellectually honest, we would have unity because we would come to the same conclusions. But, that would require us giving up our beloved doctrines, those that we hold so dear.
We are not Christians if we are not saved by grace through faith. There is one door one way and only the straight path leads to eternal life. There are many tares sown among the wheat but only the Lord can separate between the two.


You see we are commanded to reason, which includes logic.

Mark 12:28-30 ( KJV )
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, "]The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

This is were many Christians fall short, they love the Lord with all of their heart and soul, but not their minds.
God is the author of faith and God is the author of logic and God is the author of reason. It is not logical or reasonable to perish in ones sins when Christ has provided salvation full and free by grace through faith.

The church is alive and well. The Lord has His remnant who have not been tainted by the allure of the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 20th 2010, 02:22 AM
Hi Slug1,

It is this kind of sentiment that leads many people into false doctrines and false beliefs. Just have faith and don't worry about reasoning? If you do not know the Scriptures how do you know the spirit that you say is speaking to you? I think it is rather obvious that many Christians don't know how to reason through an argument, if they did we wouldn't have so many different beliefs. This is a point that is brought out in the book. Another point that is brought out is how the Protestant Church is ripping apart the body of Christ with all of it's divisions and dissensions.Actually it's satan doing the ripping apart... he just needs to do it through something that makes up an element of the Kingdom of God here on earth. It's not "just" the Protestant Church.

I understand allot of what you say Butch... however, I read much of what people "reason" from scripture and since reason is limited, without the faith to allow God to work through them in ways they don't understand... all that reason means squat. God gives us all the reason we need to my understanding. He even gives us knowledge and wisdom as well as He see's fit.

Reason out what I wrote in my last post Butch. Just attempting to make it make sense means a person is not trusting God. Faith, enable us to be used by God to do all the miracles that can't be reasoned or made to make sense in any logical way. Sure, bounce a miracle against scripture but "how" it was done? Only God knows.

Like I said... prompted to lay hands on a specific person when they go to the altar for prayer, pray the words that God places on the lips of the person to be used as a vessel, possibility that the words of this prayer will be in a tongue only God knows as the Holy Spirit prays the words, and God heals the person. Remember now, a vessel... that person isn't the one doing this, they are only being use by God for Him to glorify Himself and He has chosen to do it through a person.

If reason says all the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ended... well, maybe only for those reasoning this, they have.

Many say this don't happen because they've reasoned themselves incapable to be used as such vessels.

I will even goes so far as to say this is how they justify the reason that no healing or any manifestation of the Holy Spirit has ever happened in their church and this does go for entire denominations.

Faith, sure we have it, all Christians have faith... how many jump out the boat without their hip waders the moment God says Jump?

When a person does and God knows that a person will... then their faith is the faith that God will work through because when God works, logic, reason, understanding isn't always gonna help. First time I was involved in casting out a demon from a person, listened to it speak, smelled it as it left, watched the mess come out of the person's mouth... if I allowed my reason to help me through this event and not allow the Holy Spirit to guide me, give me the words of praise to God as I was not the one who was the one God was using in authority but was one who was to worship and praise God while another present was the one led in authority against the demon... well, I'd reason this... we'd be beat naked like the Seven sons of Sceva ;)

Jesus says we need to be humble like a child, sure balance that also with understanding as we go from milk to meat but I have seen Christians define themselves in the Kingdom of God through reasoning out scripture. Jesus is who needs to define Himself in a person. He is the Word, He has all the answers, He has no questions, only the answers and some of the answers aren't for us. I watch, listen, and read how people take every letter of every word of the Bible, break those very letters down into several varieties of languages available, that the Bible was originally written as and analyze this to the ends of their days and when they know all they can possibly know about God and His word. Is this bad... no, it's not bad at all BUT, always a but :lol: I can't help but read James chapter 2 and reason that faith is what enables God to work through a person and produce fruit that will glorify Himself only. Not through all that knowledge about Him.

So, back to Mark's post... I don't know what works the Lord does through him because all I know is that all he'll do in a thread is pour out all his understanding and reasoning of scripture and there AIN'T no wrong in his logic, while all I'll pour out in a thread is testimony of God working in my life and there AIN'T no wrong in what the Lord does in my life.

I don't understand all the Bible, I'm the first to admit it, I've been wrong and have admitted that as well... I also don't understand all the Lord has me do... for example, for the last 6 months or so I've been prompted to go to our church on the Mondays I have off and intercede on the altar and that as I pray I am to cry tears onto the alter, not to wipe my tears but let them fall onto the altar as I pray. After doing this for a few months, I did ask God why the tears... last week after a 2 month wait (or so) He led me to this scripture:

Psalm 126:5 Those who sow in tears
Shall reap in joy.
6 He who continually goes forth weeping,
Bearing seed for sowing,
Shall doubtless come again with rejoicing,
Bringing his sheaves with him.

I have seen miracles on this altar take place over the past 6 months, I have witnessed $24,000 raised by pledge in 10 minutes when a call went out as we were coming up so close to the closing date to purchase this building, as our church had only raised was about $6K of the $32K goal to reach the down payment for the building during this 6 month period. All those pledges are now in, over the past month and this church is not a congregation of wealthy people at all but the Lord moved all and sacrifice is made and next month we close on this building and as this money was offered, I have not been led nor prompted any longer to go to the church at 5:30AM and pray till I had no more tears and I am rejoicing and I have joy and all the honor, praise, and glory is to God.

So, even though I didn't know why God had me praying and crying on the altar, I did it. Now I know why and I do rejoice, my faith and trust in God is greater and I pray that His trust in me is greater.

I do not feel... for me I do not feel... not others, lest I offended them... that knowing all I can about God increases what He will do through me, I do know that the more I "KNOW" God, WILL increase what He will do through me:

Luke 12:47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

The Mighty Sword
Apr 20th 2010, 02:25 AM
My post is not referencing something that we cannot see. I am speaking about the Scriptures using logic and common sense when we interpret the Scriptures. It seems when many Christians try to interpret the Scriptures common sense goes out the window. God is not a God of confusion, He said,

Isaiah 1:16-18 ( KJV )
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Christians just accept contradictions in their theology that they would never accept in a history book. For instance, Reformed believers will say that salvation is all of God, everything from start to finish, yet in the above passages God is telling the Israelites to wash themselves, to make themselves clean, to learn to do well. They will say that is OT, but at the same time they will say that God never changes, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do you see the contradiction? Now, when faced with this dilemma, most will not even consider that their doctrine might be the problem, they will go on believing just a they have, accepting the contradiction rather than scrutinizing their theology. I'm not picking on Reformed believers here because the same can be said of those who hold to free will. The point is that common sense shouldn't be the first casualty when interpreting the Scriptures.

Here's another example. Scripture says that God cannot lie. Most Christians that I have spoken to about this passage say that it means that God is incapable of lying. Is that what it means? I contend that that is not what it means. There are many things that could make prevent someone from doing something. For instance, suppose you handed me a baseball bat and said there is a dog out back, I want you to go and beat it with the bat. In response I say, I could never do such a thing, Am I saying that I am physically incapable of doing it? No, I am physically capable, however, it is so against my nature that I could not bring myself to do it. I contend that this is how the statement "God cannot lie" should be read, and Scriptures back it up. If we take the interpretation that God in incapable then we wind up with a contradiction. Scriptures says that God cannot lie, Scripture also says that Christ is the express image of God, it says that all the fullness of Godhood dwells in Christ bodily. Scripture also says that Christ was made like his brethren in"ALL" ways. Man has the ability to lie, if Christ was made like man in "all" ways then Christ must have had the ability to lie and if Christ is the express image of God they God must have the ability to lie, but chooses not to. However, even in light of this many will still say that God is incapable, meaning not having the ability. This is what I am talking about, even when logic and common sense shows us that our position cannot be correct we will not abandon it.


Well that's easy, The reason for Christianity is Faith, without it we have nothing, so again, where is the logic in Faith (believing something you can't see)???

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 20th 2010, 04:07 AM
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD (Isaiah 1:18)

kay-gee
Apr 20th 2010, 12:40 PM
I disagree with notuptome (surprise!)

Anyone claiming no division in the Christian world has been sleeping or is very naive. Christ said the gates of Hell would not prevail against His church. True! His Church. He only has one church. The other 20,000 denominations need not apply. Eph. 4:4 ONE body, not 20,000 bodies. There is a popular notion, I suspect driven by political correctness, that claims the ONE body spoken of here, is the summation of all the protestant denominations and sects. Not so. ONE body has ONE head. denominations have supplanted the ONE head with human men heads. The true church has ONE faith. There is no agreement between denominations on faith. Baptism is another point upon which is no commn ground, yet Bible teaches ONE baptism. There is a true church and it is the responsibility of man to be a member of it.

Secondly...there are a lot of things wrong with the RRC but UNITY is not one of them. There are not 20,000 different Catholic sects. If you were to go to Italy, Spain, France, Ireland or Mexico and Brazil, you would find Catholic doctrine is quite standardized throughout.

Many seem to stress faith alone as the heart of the Christian faith. While there is merit in faith, it is only half of the equation. Obedience is manatory. Jesus said so Himself. John 8:31. There is another mistaken notion of divided protestant thinking. That nothing is required of man. Only believe. Serious error that is going to catch many by surprise on the last day. (Matt 7:21) Believing means believing what He says. Believing what He says means doing.

Nuff said for now

all the best...

HisLeast
Apr 20th 2010, 01:24 PM
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD (Isaiah 1:18)

Furthermore...
Acts 17: 11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

notuptome
Apr 20th 2010, 05:28 PM
I disagree with notuptome (surprise!)
Say it ain't so!


Anyone claiming no division in the Christian world has been sleeping or is very naive. Christ said the gates of Hell would not prevail against His church. True! His Church. He only has one church. The other 20,000 denominations need not apply. Eph. 4:4 ONE body, not 20,000 bodies. There is a popular notion, I suspect driven by political correctness, that claims the ONE body spoken of here, is the summation of all the protestant denominations and sects. Not so. ONE body has ONE head. denominations have supplanted the ONE head with human men heads. The true church has ONE faith. There is no agreement between denominations on faith. Baptism is another point upon which is no commn ground, yet Bible teaches ONE baptism. There is a true church and it is the responsibility of man to be a member of it.
The body is not a denomination nor is it the roman catholic church. The body is in all the denominations and even in the roman catholic church. The body is borna again believers in Christ scattered all around the world. They, we, are united in Christ as our Saviour. We are all baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body. 1 Cor 12:13


Secondly...there are a lot of things wrong with the RRC but UNITY is not one of them. There are not 20,000 different Catholic sects. If you were to go to Italy, Spain, France, Ireland or Mexico and Brazil, you would find Catholic doctrine is quite standardized throughout.
It would be pointless to discuss the roman catholic church and the internal problems and doctrinal divisions that they are troubled with.


Many seem to stress faith alone as the heart of the Christian faith. While there is merit in faith, it is only half of the equation. Obedience is manatory. Jesus said so Himself. John 8:31. There is another mistaken notion of divided protestant thinking. That nothing is required of man. Only believe. Serious error that is going to catch many by surprise on the last day. (Matt 7:21) Believing means believing what He says. Believing what He says means doing.

Nuff said for now

all the best...
The problems we are discussing are not problems of intellectual differences but problems of hard hearts toward God. Only when we have yielded our will to His will and sought His Spirit to lead us into the Truth will we have unity and fellowship with Him and unity and fellowship with others who know Him as Saviour.

Denominations are the creation of men and not God. Christ came not to establish an organization on the earth but to give life to an organism. The church that Christ established lives in every kindred, tongue and kind on the earth. The church that is the church, catholic as in universal, follows her divine head who is Christ. There are tares among the wheat but Christ will separate them at the last day. There are believers of every sort in the church but they all have in common their Saviour. Thr parable of the sower Mat 13:1-9 some seed fell by the way side and was devoured by the fowls, some fell on stony ground and sprung up but lacked root so it withered away, others fell among thorns and was choked but some fell on good ground and produced an hundredfold. Many take this parable and say that only the last group was saved but when Jesus explains it to His disciples we see that only the first group was lost. The two groups in the middle were in the denomonations the creations of man and never grew into productive Christians.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Apr 20th 2010, 05:50 PM
Here are some general rules to use when trying to interpret scripture. I found these years ago on apologeticsindex.org and are a good place to start when trying to properly interpret scripture....


1.) The rule of DEFINITION: What does the word mean? Any study of Scripture must begin with a study of words. Define your terms and then keep to the terms defined. The interpreter should conscientiously abide by the plain meaning of the words. This quite often may require using a Hebrew/English or Greek/English lexicon in order to make sure that the sense of the English translation is understood. A couple of good examples of this are the Greek words "allos" and "heteros". Both are usually translated as "another" in English - yet "allos" literally means "another of the same type" and "heteros" means "another of a different type."

2.) The rule of USAGE: It must be remembered that the Old Testament was written originally by, to and for Jews. The words and idioms must have been intelligible to them - just as the words of Christ when talking to them must have been. The majority of the New Testament likewise was written in a milieu of Greco-Roman (and to a lesser extent Jewish) culture and it is important to not impose our modern usage into our interpretation. It is not worth much to interpret a great many phrases and histories if one's interpretations are shaded by pre-conceived notions and cultural biases, thereby rendering an inaccurate and ineffectual lesson.

3.) The rule of CONTEXT: The meaning must be gathered from the context. Every word you read must be understood in the light of the words that come before and after it. Many passages will not be understood at all, or understood incorrectly, without the help afforded by the context. A good example of this is the Mormon practice of using 1 Cor. 8:5b: "...for there be gods many and lords many..." as a "proof text" of their doctrine of polytheism. However, a simple reading of the whole verse in the context of the whole chapter (e.g. where Paul calls these gods "so-called"), plainly demonstrates that Paul is not teaching polytheism.

4.) The rule of HISTORICAL BACKGROUND: The interpreter must have some awareness of the life and society of the times in which the Scripture was written. The spiritual principle will be timeless but often can't be properly appreciated without some knowledge of the background. If the interpreter can have in his mind what the writer had in his mind when he wrote - without adding any excess baggage from the interpreter's own culture or society - then the true thought of the Scripture can be captured resulting in an accurate interpretation. Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "Our only interest in the past is for the light it throws upon the present."

5.) The rule of LOGIC: Interpretation is merely logical reasoning. When interpreting Scripture, the use of reason is everywhere to be assumed. Does the interpretation make sense? The Bible was given to us in the form of human language and therefore appeals to human reason - it invites investigation. It is to be interpreted as we would any other volume: applying the laws of language and grammatical analysis. As Bernard Ramm said:

"What is the control we use to weed out false theological speculation? Certainly the control is logic and evidence... interpreters who have not had the sharpening experience of logic...may have improper notions of implication and evidence. Too frequently such a person uses a basis of appeal that is a notorious violation of the laws of logic and evidence." (Protestant Biblical Interpretation, Boston: W. A. Wilde, 1956)

6.) The rule of PRECEDENT: We must not violate the known usage of a word and invent another for which there is no precedent. Just as a judge's chief occupation is the study of previous cases, so must the interpreter use precedents in order to determine whether they really support an alleged doctrine. Consider the Bereans in Acts 17:10-12 who were called "noble" because they searched the Scriptures to determine if what Paul taught them was true.

7.) The rule of UNITY: The parts of Scripture being interpreted must be construed with reference to the significance of the whole. An interpretation must be consistent with the rest of Scripture. An excellent example of this is the doctrine of the Trinity. No single passage teaches it, but it is consistent with the teaching of the whole of Scripture (e.g. the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are referred to individually as God; yet the Scriptures elsewhere teach there is only one God).

8.) The rule of INFERENCE: An inference is a fact reasonably implied from another fact. It is a logical consequence. It derives a conclusion from a given fact or premise. It is the deduction of one proposition from another proposition. Such inferential facts or propositions are sufficiently binding when their truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence. Competent evidence means such evidence as the nature of the thing to be proved admits. Satisfactory evidence means that amount of proof which would ordinarily satisfy an unprejudiced mind beyond a reasonable doubt. Jesus used this rule when he proved the resurrection of the dead to the unbelieving Sadducees in Matt. 22:23-33.

thedee
Apr 20th 2010, 06:32 PM
Well that's easy, The reason for Christianity is Faith, without it we have nothing, so again, where is the logic in Faith (believing something you can't see)???

"Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." - John 20:29

Butch5
Apr 20th 2010, 10:20 PM
Actually it's satan doing the ripping apart... he just needs to do it through something that makes up an element of the Kingdom of God here on earth. It's not "just" the Protestant Church.

I understand allot of what you say Butch... however, I read much of what people "reason" from scripture and since reason is limited, without the faith to allow God to work through them in ways they don't understand... all that reason means squat. God gives us all the reason we need to my understanding. He even gives us knowledge and wisdom as well as He see's fit.

Reason out what I wrote in my last post Butch. Just attempting to make it make sense means a person is not trusting God. Faith, enable us to be used by God to do all the miracles that can't be reasoned or made to make sense in any logical way. Sure, bounce a miracle against scripture but "how" it was done? Only God knows.

Like I said... prompted to lay hands on a specific person when they go to the altar for prayer, pray the words that God places on the lips of the person to be used as a vessel, possibility that the words of this prayer will be in a tongue only God knows as the Holy Spirit prays the words, and God heals the person. Remember now, a vessel... that person isn't the one doing this, they are only being use by God for Him to glorify Himself and He has chosen to do it through a person.

If reason says all the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ended... well, maybe only for those reasoning this, they have.

Many say this don't happen because they've reasoned themselves incapable to be used as such vessels.

I will even goes so far as to say this is how they justify the reason that no healing or any manifestation of the Holy Spirit has ever happened in their church and this does go for entire denominations.

Faith, sure we have it, all Christians have faith... how many jump out the boat without their hip waders the moment God says Jump?

When a person does and God knows that a person will... then their faith is the faith that God will work through because when God works, logic, reason, understanding isn't always gonna help. First time I was involved in casting out a demon from a person, listened to it speak, smelled it as it left, watched the mess come out of the person's mouth... if I allowed my reason to help me through this event and not allow the Holy Spirit to guide me, give me the words of praise to God as I was not the one who was the one God was using in authority but was one who was to worship and praise God while another present was the one led in authority against the demon... well, I'd reason this... we'd be beat naked like the Seven sons of Sceva ;)

Jesus says we need to be humble like a child, sure balance that also with understanding as we go from milk to meat but I have seen Christians define themselves in the Kingdom of God through reasoning out scripture. Jesus is who needs to define Himself in a person. He is the Word, He has all the answers, He has no questions, only the answers and some of the answers aren't for us. I watch, listen, and read how people take every letter of every word of the Bible, break those very letters down into several varieties of languages available, that the Bible was originally written as and analyze this to the ends of their days and when they know all they can possibly know about God and His word. Is this bad... no, it's not bad at all BUT, always a but :lol: I can't help but read James chapter 2 and reason that faith is what enables God to work through a person and produce fruit that will glorify Himself only. Not through all that knowledge about Him.

So, back to Mark's post... I don't know what works the Lord does through him because all I know is that all he'll do in a thread is pour out all his understanding and reasoning of scripture and there AIN'T no wrong in his logic, while all I'll pour out in a thread is testimony of God working in my life and there AIN'T no wrong in what the Lord does in my life.

I don't understand all the Bible, I'm the first to admit it, I've been wrong and have admitted that as well... I also don't understand all the Lord has me do... for example, for the last 6 months or so I've been prompted to go to our church on the Mondays I have off and intercede on the altar and that as I pray I am to cry tears onto the alter, not to wipe my tears but let them fall onto the altar as I pray. After doing this for a few months, I did ask God why the tears... last week after a 2 month wait (or so) He led me to this scripture:

Psalm 126:5 Those who sow in tears
Shall reap in joy.
6 He who continually goes forth weeping,
Bearing seed for sowing,
Shall doubtless come again with rejoicing,
Bringing his sheaves with him.

I have seen miracles on this altar take place over the past 6 months, I have witnessed $24,000 raised by pledge in 10 minutes when a call went out as we were coming up so close to the closing date to purchase this building, as our church had only raised was about $6K of the $32K goal to reach the down payment for the building during this 6 month period. All those pledges are now in, over the past month and this church is not a congregation of wealthy people at all but the Lord moved all and sacrifice is made and next month we close on this building and as this money was offered, I have not been led nor prompted any longer to go to the church at 5:30AM and pray till I had no more tears and I am rejoicing and I have joy and all the honor, praise, and glory is to God.

So, even though I didn't know why God had me praying and crying on the altar, I did it. Now I know why and I do rejoice, my faith and trust in God is greater and I pray that His trust in me is greater.

I do not feel... for me I do not feel... not others, lest I offended them... that knowing all I can about God increases what He will do through me, I do know that the more I "KNOW" God, WILL increase what He will do through me:

Luke 12:47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Slug1,

My post was in regard to the Scriptures. You can say what you want but the fact is that we are commanded to reason trough the Scriptures. Jesus said, to love God with you whole mind. People who don't know the Scriptures are easily led astray. I asked you a question in my last post that you did not answer. If you do not know the Scriptures, how do you know that the spirit you say is speaking to you is the Spirit of God? Now, before you start claiming blasphemy of the Holy Spirit consider the Apostles words.


1 John 4:1 ( KJV )
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

We are told to test the spirits to see if they are from God. How is one going to test the spirits if they do not know what the Scriptures say?

However, this is totally outside of the purpose of this post. This post is to make available a good source of information and teaching for those who are interested in learning how to properly interpret Scripture. I prayed to God for a long time to show me how to understand Scripture. That prayer has been answered and continues to be answered. I am sure I am not the only one who has prayed that prayer. So this information is for those individuals, the ones who want to understand how to interpret Scripture, The ones who don't want to be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

Butch5
Apr 20th 2010, 10:22 PM
Well that's easy, The reason for Christianity is Faith, without it we have nothing, so again, where is the logic in Faith (believing something you can't see)???

I believe you have missed the entire point of my post.

Butch5
Apr 20th 2010, 10:31 PM
I disagree with notuptome (surprise!)

Anyone claiming no division in the Christian world has been sleeping or is very naive. Christ said the gates of Hell would not prevail against His church. True! His Church. He only has one church. The other 20,000 denominations need not apply. Eph. 4:4 ONE body, not 20,000 bodies. There is a popular notion, I suspect driven by political correctness, that claims the ONE body spoken of here, is the summation of all the protestant denominations and sects. Not so. ONE body has ONE head. denominations have supplanted the ONE head with human men heads. The true church has ONE faith. There is no agreement between denominations on faith. Baptism is another point upon which is no commn ground, yet Bible teaches ONE baptism. There is a true church and it is the responsibility of man to be a member of it.

Secondly...there are a lot of things wrong with the RRC but UNITY is not one of them. There are not 20,000 different Catholic sects. If you were to go to Italy, Spain, France, Ireland or Mexico and Brazil, you would find Catholic doctrine is quite standardized throughout.

Many seem to stress faith alone as the heart of the Christian faith. While there is merit in faith, it is only half of the equation. Obedience is manatory. Jesus said so Himself. John 8:31. There is another mistaken notion of divided protestant thinking. That nothing is required of man. Only believe. Serious error that is going to catch many by surprise on the last day. (Matt 7:21) Believing means believing what He says. Believing what He says means doing.

Nuff said for now

all the best...

Agreed my friend, and notice the response was not what should we do to remedy this problem, it was to self defense. That is where many Christians go, to self defense. What they do not realize is that we are either a part of the solution or a part of the problem. 20,000 sects and denominations and we all claim to be seeking the Truth. Now, that shows that many need to read the book.

Butch5
Apr 20th 2010, 10:35 PM
Here are some general rules to use when trying to interpret scripture. I found these years ago on apologeticsindex.org and are a good place to start when trying to properly interpret scripture....

This is a good start, the book I was referring to goes int very much detail and gives examples of how to and how not to interpret a legal document, which he then applies to the Scriptures.

Slug1
Apr 20th 2010, 10:46 PM
Slug1,

My post was in regard to the Scriptures. You can say what you want but the fact is that we are commanded to reason trough the Scriptures. Jesus said, to love God with you whole mind. People who don't know the Scriptures are easily led astray. I asked you a question in my last post that you did not answer. If you do not know the Scriptures, how do you know that the spirit you say is speaking to you is the Spirit of God? Now, before you start claiming blasphemy of the Holy Spirit consider the Apostles words.


1 John 4:1 ( KJV )
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

We are told to test the spirits to see if they are from God. How is one going to test the spirits if they do not know what the Scriptures say?

However, this is totally outside of the purpose of this post. This post is to make available a good source of information and teaching for those who are interested in learning how to properly interpret Scripture. I prayed to God for a long time to show me how to understand Scripture. That prayer has been answered and continues to be answered. I am sure I am not the only one who has prayed that prayer. So this information is for those individuals, the ones who want to understand how to interpret Scripture, The ones who don't want to be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.Well Butch, I got an understanding of scripture that is ever increasing as my relationship with God increases. I was beat about on the waves once because my relationship was through the religion I followed and we all know where religion will lead you... straight to hell in my opinion as rules and ritual is more important then the Word of God and people follow their religion before they'd follow God, through Jesus, as led by the Holy Spirit.

Testing the spirits is also a gift given to us through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and He will point out falsehoods, I will guarantee you that He'll do this for you. I agree with you though that for those who do not exercise this gift, scripture is where the test is made and understanding of scripture is necessary as this is where God first speaks to us all. When a miracle happens, many today say it's of satan (which is blasphemy) ... as if God never manifests these days and some on this board doubt all testimony given... it's sad. Many doubted Christ Himself when He was doing the miracles as empowered by the Holy Spirit so I'm not surprised it's continued today. Just as in Jesus' day, many religious folk do doubt all miracles and all testimony as they are led by their religion and not the Holy Spirit and they actually "fear" any manifestations because such manifestations NEVER happen in their church... usually because their denom has said they have all ended. From the get go, they are ineffective spiritually because they believe this lie. But intellectually, no one can get in their way as they got it all figured out or will do everything in "their" power to figure it all out. Well, spiritually the enemy doesn't even have to bother with them because they aren't causing him any trouble as God can't use them spiritually against satan's movement against the Body of Christ because simply put... they don't believe the gifts that God gives the Body of Christ to combat satan, are in use today.

When boiled all down... people tend to define themselves in their "gift" of reasoning through scripture. The more they understand of the Bible, the closer they are to God... right? They know all they can about God. This is more a curse of a Pharisee. I'm just one who would rather be defined by what Jesus has worked through me. I guess when I need to understand a piece of scripture that I have misunderstood... I have those who are defined by their logic and by their ability to reason their way through scripture and I can utilize this as a resource of help as needed. Seeking God is always the first I do though and when He places a specific scripture in my spirit to read and once I do and understand the answer I seek, knowledge and wisdom as ministered directly from the Holy Spirit so it's God's meaning and truth, will always out weigh the logic and reasoning from our mind.

notuptome
Apr 20th 2010, 11:07 PM
Agreed my friend, and notice the response was not what should we do to remedy this problem, it was to self defense. That is where many Christians go, to self defense. What they do not realize is that we are either a part of the solution or a part of the problem. 20,000 sects and denominations and we all claim to be seeking the Truth. Now, that shows that many need to read the book.
Well since Jesus is the head of the church I should think He is capable of fixing any problems within the church. If the Lord is not doing things your way or the way you think He should then be as honest as Job and tell Him so. Only be prepared to answer His question Job 38:4 Where were you when He laid the foundations of the earth declare if you have understanding. I see no logic in worrying about something that only the Lord can fix. If each one attends to his/her own relationship with the Lord all will be well. Esteem each better than self.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 12:09 PM
Well since Jesus is the head of the church I should think He is capable of fixing any problems within the church. If the Lord is not doing things your way or the way you think He should then be as honest as Job and tell Him so. Only be prepared to answer His question Job 38:4 Where were you when He laid the foundations of the earth declare if you have understanding. I see no logic in worrying about something that only the Lord can fix. If each one attends to his/her own relationship with the Lord all will be well. Esteem each better than self.

For the cause of Christ
RogerHooah dude!!! If Jesus is to fix any church, He'd have to first toss out all the rituals they have chosen to follow God through. All this ritual and rules and doctrines (denom related)... all this just gets in the way of a relationship with God, through (only) Jesus, led in the freedom of the movement of the Holy Spirit. Face it... get rid of all denoms and their ritual and immediately all there would be is the leading of the Holy Spirit and a relationship with God through Christ. So many are 'in religion' and are not 'in Christ'... it's sad.

Since you mentioned Catholics in a previous post.... I could just imagine all Catholics walking into church on Sunday and there was no script to follow, no more step by step ritual, no missalette to follow for 6 months straight. Instead they were told to allow the Holy Spirit to guide their worship, allow the Holy Spirit to guide their praise, allow the Holy Spirit to place the words to pray upon their lips, toss the rosary away as all this does is bind them to repetition and deafens them all to what the Holy Spirit wants to pray through them, allow the Holy Spirit to place the sermon upon the lips of the priest so it's God's message that HE want's to express to those in the congregation.

Just the thought of this would get you, me, or anyone removed and this clearly includes Jesus because unfortunately... ritual is more important then freedom in Christ.

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 03:46 PM
Where is the "logic" in believing something you can't see???Believing something unseen is very logical. I believe that love, justice, happiness, and all sorts of abstract things exist.

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 03:49 PM
Well that's easy, The reason for Christianity is Faith, without it we have nothing, so again, where is the logic in Faith (believing something you can't see)???

You're confusing logic with empiricism. The two are very different. And you are using reason and logic to make your argument, which defeats your argument.

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 03:55 PM
Dude, faith will trump reason any day every time.

The Lord can't work through a person who reasons his/her way though understanding many tasks that the Lord will do through you. If He prompts you to lay hands on a person next Sunday and pray the words that He's gonna place upon your lips because He wants this person to be healed during an altar call. Ya can't reason your way through this... nor understand the words when you do this if they come out in tongues.

So many Christians fail to be vessels because it don't line up with what "they" know about God. If Butch happens to reply to this post, one of the things he'll bring up is tongues has ceased. Well, for him and all others who know all about God, it's seems they have... for them.

For those who know God, they lay on hands, pray in tongues and whoever the Lord happened to want healed, are healed. Is tongues necessary... no, is laying on of hands necessary, no. Is understanding the Bible with all the reason in the world necessary, no. A child can do it and don't tell me a child can't because there isn't a child in the Bible who healed anyone so within reason, no child can ever be used by God as a vessel to heal another.

That is all I'm saying Mark. If this offends you, I'm sorry.

Sure, reason is needed to understand scripture but for scripture to have power... only faith and trust in God! Reason means nothing as we can't figure out "how" to be prompted, led to a person, lay hands on them, pray in tongues, and the Lord heals them. Logic and reason are out the window, dude!

Only faith, trust, surrender, obedience, and humbleness to hold this all together in a way that God can utilize.

Reasoning out the entire Bible, making it all make sense... all this logic and reason put together doesn't help you when the Lord wants to work through you.Slug, reason is not the enemy of faith, fantasy is. And if you have no logical, reasoned basis for your faith, you are living a fantasy. And all your claims about experiences with the supernatural are nothing but fantasy role-playing games without reason and logic. While you don't realize it, you aren't arguing for faith. Rather you are arguing for empiricism, which is just another form of reason and logic.

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 05:20 PM
Slug, reason is not the enemy of faith, fantasy is. And if you have no logical, reasoned basis for your faith, you are living a fantasy. And all your claims about experiences with the supernatural are nothing but fantasy role-playing games without reason and logic. While you don't realize it, you aren't arguing for faith. Rather you are arguing for empiricism, which is just another form of reason and logic.Well, I guess that all I can use is clay and spit then ;)

notuptome
Apr 21st 2010, 05:57 PM
Well, I guess that all I can use is clay and spit then ;)
Oh no another "ism" to add to the list empiricism. Will it never end??

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 06:04 PM
Oh no another "ism" to add to the list empiricism. Will it never end??

For the cause of Christ
RogerI haven't even looked this one up yet in my dictionary :rofl:

edit: Seems like on the job training. Glad the Holy Spirit teaches as well as empowers :P

notuptome
Apr 21st 2010, 06:26 PM
The bible does say we are to study to show ourselves approved workmen that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 Study does imply a certain level of disipline. That implies rigor and an established set of rules by which truth is discerned. We cannot make things up or make the rules as we go. We must take a scientific approach testing and proving our thoughts and conclusions. The word of God demands we be honest and not twist or subvert the truth God has given us. Some are coming and some are already here who turn the truth into fables. We must honor the Lord and test, try and reprove all things by the word of God. We must have faith and guidance of the Holy Spirit in concert with the intellect and reason God has given us to honor His word and do rightly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 06:39 PM
The bible does say we are to study to show ourselves approved workmen that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 Study does imply a certain level of disipline. That implies rigor and an established set of rules by which truth is discerned. We cannot make things up or make the rules as we go. We must take a scientific approach testing and proving our thoughts and conclusions. The word of God demands we be honest and not twist or subvert the truth God has given us. Some are coming and some are already here who turn the truth into fables. We must honor the Lord and test, try and reprove all things by the word of God. We must have faith and guidance of the Holy Spirit in concert with the intellect and reason God has given us to honor His word and do rightly.

For the cause of Christ
RogerHooah... the problem is since God doesn't provide instructions on "how" to do a miracle or how to do anything that is beyond human ability... most Christians ignore this part of a relationship that they can have with God... the part where He works through them in power. All it takes is obedience... and faith that God has given us so He can work through that faith.

Take Peter... walked on water until doubt began to enter due to the "storm" around him. No knowledge, no reason... just obedience to the command of "Come" and his faith enabled the Holy Spirit to enable him till the element of doubt reduced or removed that enablement. Doubt is a form of unbelief and if a person doesn't believe that God empowers people today... well, their unbelief is only effecting them... not the rest of those in the Body of Christ who do believe.

Firefighter
Apr 21st 2010, 06:57 PM
Take Peter... walked on water until doubt began to enter due to the "storm" around him. No knowledge, no reason... just obedience to the command of "Come" and his faith enabled the Holy Spirit to enable him till the element of doubt reduced or removed that enablement. Doubt is a form of unbelief and if a person doesn't believe that God empowers people today... well, their unbelief is only effecting them... not the rest of those in the Body of Christ who do believe.

While I agree that God empowers his people to do the supernatural, this is about BIBLICAL interpretation, and as such, we really need to talk. Where on earth do you get "enabled the Holy Spirit" from??? This is a clear example of letting your theology lead your biblical interpretation...

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 07:03 PM
Well, I guess that all I can use is clay and spit then ;)

I have no idea what you are talking about. I wonder if you know what I am talking about?

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 07:06 PM
. . .most Christians ignore this part of a relationship that they can have with God...How do you know what most Christians ignore?

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 07:06 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about. I wonder if you know what I am talking about?When Jesus used simple dirt from the ground and spit on it to form clay to heal the blind man.

If I was led to take sand and seawater, then use the wet sand for God to heal a blindman... are you gonna call it false because it "has" to be only clay based on Jesus example?

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 07:09 PM
While I agree that God empowers his people to do the supernatural, this is about BIBLICAL interpretation, and as such, we really need to talk. Where on earth do you get "enabled the Holy Spirit" from??? This is a clear example of letting your theology lead your biblical interpretation...Because once the unbelief entered Peter in the form of doubt, God wasn't able to keep him on the water and he began to sink. A clear example of what God can and will do through our faith.

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 07:11 PM
How do you know what most Christians ignore?My comment is based on replies from all those who say that God doesn't empower Christians today. They are ignoring this part of their relationship with God... maybe, 'avoiding' is a better word or 'denying'?

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 07:18 PM
My comment is based on replies from all those who say that God doesn't empower Christians today. They are ignoring this part of their relationship with God... maybe, 'avoiding' is a better word or 'denying'?

Maybe it would be better if you spoke for yourself, not speak for "most Christians", and avoid comparing yourself to everyone else as if you were the standard. Take the chip off your shoulders and allow others to teach you. That would be a start.

notuptome
Apr 21st 2010, 07:19 PM
While I agree that God empowers his people to do the supernatural, this is about BIBLICAL interpretation, and as such, we really need to talk. Where on earth do you get "enabled the Holy Spirit" from??? This is a clear example of letting your theology lead your biblical interpretation...
While we are all guilty of this one from time to time you are quite correct to direct the thread back to its topic.

Thanks.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Apr 21st 2010, 07:20 PM
Because once the unbelief entered Peter in the form of doubt, God wasn't able to keep him on the water and he began to sink. A clear example of what God can and will do through our faith.

Where do you read "Holy Spirit" in the text anywhere, or where do you infer that the Holy Spirit was responsible???

Seriously... Biblical interpretation requires one to first read what the text says and what it does not say...

notuptome
Apr 21st 2010, 07:26 PM
Where do you read "Holy Spirit" in the text anywhere, or where do you infer that the Holy Spirit was responsible???

Seriously... Biblical interpretation requires one to first read what the text says and what it does not say...
You are a stickler for details.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

kay-gee
Apr 21st 2010, 07:28 PM
BrogRog and notuptome...two fellows I never thought I would agree with on anything. post #40 and 41 are right on the money. Some of these posts reek to high heaven of spiritual pride.

all the best...

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 07:29 PM
Maybe it would be better if you spoke for yourself, not speak for "most Christians", and avoid comparing yourself to everyone else as if you were the standard. Take the chip off your shoulders and allow others to teach you. That would be a start.I do speak for myself... I testify in just about every thread I'm involved with... people on this board know all about me... from all my weaknesses, all my struggles, all my failures, to all my victories. I'm sorry you focus on what irks you though... you're missing out and your opinion of me is clearly based on only what you have chosen to read and interpret and take offense from.

Transparency is something satan doesn't want Christians to express because it shows how God is working, so I expect attacks and when they come, I balance myself on the foundation that God has under me and I continue to walk forward.

People know who I am because I don't hide anything and I will not ever hide all that God does in my life... the enemy don't like this and does all he can to pressure me into stopping the testimony God has given me of His work in my life.

I challenge others to be transparent and watch God do His work through them as well... it's a standard all Christians should not fear but many do because of the treatment they receive from many other Christians.

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 07:36 PM
Where do you read "Holy Spirit" in the text anywhere, or where do you infer that the Holy Spirit was responsible???

Seriously... Biblical interpretation requires one to first read what the text says and what it does not say...If Jesus is empowered by the Holy Spirit then we are also. All Jesus did was God's will, he had no doubt nor unbelief.

When Jesus went to the wilderness He was full of the Holy Spirit, He returned in the power of the Holy Spirit, Luke 4:1,14.

God works through us as far as the Holy Spirit can empower us and as we see with Peter, this empowerment either lessens or stops due to unbelief, which doubt is a form of. There are other elements that hinder God from using us also... like sin but in Peter's case, it was doubt.

So sure... that scripture in Matthew 14:25+ about Peter walking on water doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit but based on scripture (in general) where a person is empowered (OT and NT), it is due to the Holy Spirit either upon them or in them.

So... in the "details" as Roger said... no, the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned... does He have to be mentioned to be clear on how Peter was empowered? Did I fail to interpret this scritpure correctly?

Do you seriously feel that since the words "Holy Spirit" aren't in that scripture, the Holy Spirit wasn't involved in Peter walking on water?

Did I say that the Holy Spirit was "responsible"? I don't think I did or try to imply that... God is but it's always His Spirit that does the work of empowerment.

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 07:38 PM
BrogRog and notuptome...two fellows I never thought I would agree with on anything. post #40 and 41 are right on the money. Some of these posts reek to high heaven of spiritual pride.

all the best...Crazy isn't it :lol:

I agree with alot of what they both say as well!!

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 07:38 PM
BrogRog and notuptome...two fellows I never thought I would agree with on anything. post #40 and 41 are right on the money. Some of these posts reek to high heaven of spiritual pride.

all the best...

Agreed .

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 07:39 PM
I do speak for myself... I testify in just about every thread I'm involved with... people on this board know all about me... from all my weaknesses, all my struggles, all my failures, to all my victories. I'm sorry you focus on what irks you though... you're missing out and your opinion of me is clearly based on only what you have chosen to read and interpret and take offense from.Are you speaking for me now?!!!

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 07:49 PM
Are you speaking for me now?!!!Not "for" you... only "to" you but it's not behind your back as I'm not afraid to be unfront with people. You don't believe a word I say, it's clear and I'm telling you that I'm cool with that. Your opinion isn't gonna stop God from increasing the testimony He has given me nor stop my willingness to testify for God.

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 08:10 PM
Not "for" you... only to you but it's not behind your back as I'm not afraid to be unfront with people. You don't believe a word I say, it's clear and I'm telling you that I'm cool with that. Your opinion isn't gonna stop God from increasing the testimony He has given me nor stop my willingness to testify for God.What is your expectation with regard to belief? Would you believe someone that claimed his ideas were irrational, not consistent with reason, an impression, a vague idea, a personal belief, a subjective judgment that not founded on proof or certainty? Would you believe in Jesus if he said, "I speculate that God will forgive sins?" Would you believe in Jesus if he said, "It is my guess, not based on fact or any particular reason, that God loves you and wants to save you?" Would you believe in Jesus if he said, "I am uncertain about the truth, have no access to the facts, and am not really sure about God's existence or his intentions toward man?" Do you expect that a man who claims to be "the way, the TRUTH, and the life" has no interest in verifiable facts, has no claim to know reality the way it is, and can not be certain of anything?

Before you place your experience over reason and logic, be sure of what you do and the implications of your point of view.

Do you really expect anyone to accept the testimony of a man who doesn't believe in the principles of testimony: facts, evidence, reason, and logic?

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 08:20 PM
What is your expectation with regard to belief? Would you believe someone that claimed his ideas were irrational, not consistent with reason, an impression, a vague idea, a personal belief, a subjective judgment that not founded on proof or certainty? Would you believe in Jesus if he said, "I speculate that God will forgive sins?" Would you believe in Jesus if he said, "It is my guess, not based on fact or any particular reason, that God loves you and wants to save you?" Would you believe in Jesus if he said, "I am uncertain about the truth, have no access to the facts, and am not really sure about God's existence or his intentions toward man?" Do you expect that a man who claims to be "the way, the TRUTH, and the life" has no interest in verifiable facts, has no claim to know reality the way it is, and can not be certain of anything?No.


Before you place your experience over reason and logic, be sure of what you do and the implications of your point of view.

Do you really expect anyone to accept the testimony of a man who doesn't believe in the principles of testimony: facts, evidence, reason, and logic?If a man came up to a blind man that you happened to be near, you watched him spit on the ground and make some mud, then rub it on the eyes of this blind man near you and then that man could see... logic would be off the chart, wouldn't it? Try to explain it logically to someone who works with logic and not with faith.

With faith... it's easy to believe and most of all, understand.

Facts, evidance, reason... facts are the blind man was healed with the use of mud and the evidance is he can now see and the reason... because God is glorifying Himself.

Now, if this was to be done before you today except sand and water was used... I will assume (not speak for you) that you'd not believe God was involved?

crawfish
Apr 21st 2010, 08:28 PM
Learning to read the bible is a current passion of mine, and to be honest I was shocked at the controversy (and resistance) to an empirical interpretation of scripture. Having encountered too many people who have misread scripture and come to conclusions that a solid, contextual study of scripture cannot support, I have seen the danger in completely depending on our feelings or traditions or first impressions. Honestly, if you don't use solid, logical rules to figure out what scripture means, it can literally say (and justify) anything.

I think it's important to understand: The scriptures are not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the scriptures. The scriptures are a constant, available for reading and deep study, and are revealing of the nature of God and Man, and of God's will. The Holy Spirit speaks to us, guides us, directs us to perform God's will in our time, in our culture, in our own personal situation. The HS uses the scripture for this, and scripture can also be a "filter" so you can determine if it truly is the HS speaking or if it is something from yourself. History is replete with people who have acted selfishly or even performed evil because they thought the HS was speaking to them.

Not only is it wrong to not apply reasoning and logic to bible study, it is DANGEROUS to imply that the HS can speak in ways that are not supported by a logical, rational interpretation of scripture.

BroRog
Apr 21st 2010, 08:52 PM
If a man came up to a blind man that you happened to be near, you watched him spit on the ground and make some mud, then rub it on the eyes of this blind man near you and then that man could see... logic would be off the chart, wouldn't it?Why would it? Empirical evidence is quite logical. If I saw Jesus do a miracle, to believe my eyes is quite logical. I would suspect, given my own worldview, that Jesus knew how to make medicine from dirt.


Try to explain it logically to someone who works with logic and not with faith.You seem to be working with a modern definition, not a biblical definition of faith. According to modern dictionaries, faith is belief without proof. But that is not the Biblical definition of faith at all, which is belief in the presence of proof or trust. Faith is not gullibility, or credulousness.

You mentioned Peter walking on the water. Why did Peter sink, because his ability to accept the credulous was unpracticed? No, he sank because he got scared. His doubt didn't center on his uncertainty with respect to Jesus' ability to keep him up. Rather, his doubt centered on his trust that God would keep him alive. He didn't question God's ability to keep him elevated above the water; He questioned God's desire to keep him alive.


Facts, evidence, reason... facts are the blind man was healed with the use of mud and the evidence is he can now see and the reason... because God is glorifying Himself. Now, if this was to be done before you today except sand and water was used... I will assume (not speak for you) that you'd not believe God was involved?Why would you assume that? And why do you think Jesus needed mud?, or sand?, or water? or anything at all?

Firefighter
Apr 21st 2010, 09:54 PM
God works through us as far as the Holy Spirit can empower us and as we see with Peter, this empowerment either lessens or stops due to unbelief, which doubt is a form of. There are other elements that hinder God from using us also... like sin but in Peter's case, it was doubt.

So sure... that scripture in Matthew 14:25+ about Peter walking on water doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit but based on scripture (in general) where a person is empowered (OT and NT), it is due to the Holy Spirit either upon them or in them.

This is why it is soooooo important to read the text and not read into the text.

Scripturally speaking...

1. There is no mention in the Holy Spirit's involvement in the given text.
2. This text appears prior to John 20:22 (Receive ye the Holy Ghost) and Luke 24:29 (wait until you are endued with power)
3. It predates the Holy Spirit's arrival with giftings (Acts 2)
4. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to give faith in a time of need as the Spirit wills (1 Corinthians 12:9,11)
5. The Holy Spirit's ministry to believers could NOT start until Jesus went away (John 16:7)

amazzin
Apr 21st 2010, 10:02 PM
If Jesus is empowered by the Holy Spirit then we are also. All Jesus did was God's will, he had no doubt nor unbelief.

When Jesus went to the wilderness He was full of the Holy Spirit, He returned in the power of the Holy Spirit, Luke 4:1,14.

God works through us as far as the Holy Spirit can empower us and as we see with Peter, this empowerment either lessens or stops due to unbelief, which doubt is a form of. There are other elements that hinder God from using us also... like sin but in Peter's case, it was doubt.

So sure... that scripture in Matthew 14:25+ about Peter walking on water doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit but based on scripture (in general) where a person is empowered (OT and NT), it is due to the Holy Spirit either upon them or in them.

So... in the "details" as Roger said... no, the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned... does He have to be mentioned to be clear on how Peter was empowered? Did I fail to interpret this scritpure correctly?

Do you seriously feel that since the words "Holy Spirit" aren't in that scripture, the Holy Spirit wasn't involved in Peter walking on water?

Did I say that the Holy Spirit was "responsible"? I don't think I did or try to imply that... God is but it's always His Spirit that does the work of empowerment.

Bro, Peter walked on water YES but it was in obedience to God's Word. So in fact, he was walking on the word of God to "Come" as spoken by Jesus. The empowerment of the Holy spirit did not come un til the upper room. Until that time, the Holy Spirit operated only in the context of it coming "upon" individuals as seen in many places in the OT. The Matthew text makes no mention of the coming "upon"

Butch5
Apr 21st 2010, 10:26 PM
Well Butch, I got an understanding of scripture that is ever increasing as my relationship with God increases. I was beat about on the waves once because my relationship was through the religion I followed and we all know where religion will lead you... straight to hell in my opinion as rules and ritual is more important then the Word of God and people follow their religion before they'd follow God, through Jesus, as led by the Holy Spirit.

Testing the spirits is also a gift given to us through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and He will point out falsehoods, I will guarantee you that He'll do this for you. I agree with you though that for those who do not exercise this gift, scripture is where the test is made and understanding of scripture is necessary as this is where God first speaks to us all. When a miracle happens, many today say it's of satan (which is blasphemy) ... as if God never manifests these days and some on this board doubt all testimony given... it's sad. Many doubted Christ Himself when He was doing the miracles as empowered by the Holy Spirit so I'm not surprised it's continued today. Just as in Jesus' day, many religious folk do doubt all miracles and all testimony as they are led by their religion and not the Holy Spirit and they actually "fear" any manifestations because such manifestations NEVER happen in their church... usually because their denom has said they have all ended. From the get go, they are ineffective spiritually because they believe this lie. But intellectually, no one can get in their way as they got it all figured out or will do everything in "their" power to figure it all out. Well, spiritually the enemy doesn't even have to bother with them because they aren't causing him any trouble as God can't use them spiritually against satan's movement against the Body of Christ because simply put... they don't believe the gifts that God gives the Body of Christ to combat satan, are in use today.

When boiled all down... people tend to define themselves in their "gift" of reasoning through scripture. The more they understand of the Bible, the closer they are to God... right? They know all they can about God. This is more a curse of a Pharisee. I'm just one who would rather be defined by what Jesus has worked through me. I guess when I need to understand a piece of scripture that I have misunderstood... I have those who are defined by their logic and by their ability to reason their way through scripture and I can utilize this as a resource of help as needed. Seeking God is always the first I do though and when He places a specific scripture in my spirit to read and once I do and understand the answer I seek, knowledge and wisdom as ministered directly from the Holy Spirit so it's God's meaning and truth, will always out weigh the logic and reasoning from our mind.

Why do you keep saying God can't? God can't use someone who does not believe in the gifts? He used Paul who didn't even believe in Christianity, surely He can show a Christian that the gifts are real if that is the case. So, I don't understand why you keep saying God can't. I was saved for 16 years before I can to my understanding of the gifts, I wonder why I never spoke in tongues in all of those years? I never laid hands on the sick and healed them, yet I believed that the gifts were real and active. I guess I just didn't have a gift, or maybe I just didn't have enough faith? But this whole argument is outside of the OP. I am speaking of how we interpret Scripture, and many cannot.

It seems to me that you are driving a wedge between intellectual understanding and experience. If you had a bad experience with intellectual understanding that is one thing but to just denounce it when we are commanded to do so is in my opinion dangerous.

Butch5
Apr 21st 2010, 10:42 PM
Learning to read the bible is a current passion of mine, and to be honest I was shocked at the controversy (and resistance) to an empirical interpretation of scripture. Having encountered too many people who have misread scripture and come to conclusions that a solid, contextual study of scripture cannot support, I have seen the danger in completely depending on our feelings or traditions or first impressions. Honestly, if you don't use solid, logical rules to figure out what scripture means, it can literally say (and justify) anything.

I think it's important to understand: The scriptures are not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the scriptures. The scriptures are a constant, available for reading and deep study, and are revealing of the nature of God and Man, and of God's will. The Holy Spirit speaks to us, guides us, directs us to perform God's will in our time, in our culture, in our own personal situation. The HS uses the scripture for this, and scripture can also be a "filter" so you can determine if it truly is the HS speaking or if it is something from yourself. History is replete with people who have acted selfishly or even performed evil because they thought the HS was speaking to them.

Not only is it wrong to not apply reasoning and logic to bible study, it is DANGEROUS to imply that the HS can speak in ways that are not supported by a logical, rational interpretation of scripture.

Thank you my friend, that is what I have been trying to say. It is amazing the resistance that this topic receives, I believe it is because people will be forced to rid themselves of favored doctrines, so rather than do this they just resist. In the book that I suggested
the author basically says if your are not willing to be intellectually honest you have wasted your money in purchasing this book.

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 10:52 PM
Bro, Peter walked on water YES but it was in obedience to God's Word. So in fact, he was walking on the word of God to "Come" as spoken by Jesus. The empowerment of the Holy spirit did not come un til the upper room. Until that time, the Holy Spirit operated only in the context of it coming "upon" individuals as seen in many places in the OT. The Matthew text makes no mention of the coming "upon"I mentioned upon or in:


So sure... that scripture in Matthew 14:25+ about Peter walking on water doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit but based on scripture (in general) where a person is empowered (OT and NT), it is due to the Holy Spirit either upon them or in them.



Until that time, the Holy Spirit operated only in the context of it coming "upon" individuals as seen in many places in the OT. The Matthew text makes no mention of the coming "upon"Nor does the scripture of the OT say the Spirit of God came upon a person each and every time a person is enabled to do a task that was miraculous :hmm:

I will look at some examples to double check.

Slug1
Apr 21st 2010, 11:10 PM
It seems to me that you are driving a wedge between intellectual understanding and experience. If you had a bad experience with intellectual understanding that is one thing but to just denounce it when we are commanded to do so is in my opinion dangerous.I haven't had any bad experience... I just don't understand why someone defines their relationship with God based on their understanding of scripture. When they have not had any experience of God working a miracle either through them or in their presence so then due to their understanding of scripture, state that God don't work that way anymore. This threads is about interpretation of scripture... so, when they interpret this, they're wrong... as God does do miraculous works through the Body of Christ today.

Firefighter
Apr 21st 2010, 11:20 PM
I just don't understand why someone defines their relationship with God based on their understanding of scripture.

Ummm.... can you explain this please???

Butch5
Apr 22nd 2010, 12:11 AM
I haven't had any bad experience... I just don't understand why someone defines their relationship with God based on their understanding of scripture. When they have not had any experience of God working a miracle either through them or in their presence so then due to their understanding of scripture, state that God don't work that way anymore. This threads is about interpretation of scripture... so, when they interpret this, they're wrong... as God does do miraculous works through the Body of Christ today.

Who said God does not do miracles anymore? I never said that. Just because I believer the miraculous sign gifts ended doesn't mean I don't believe that God does miracles. But again, that is outside of this discussion. I am referring to interpreting the Scriptures. I've asked this before, if one does not properly interpret Scripture how can one know if the spirit they are conversing with is from God? The apostle makes it clear, He says to test the spirits, how can we do that if we do not know the Scriptures?

crawfish
Apr 22nd 2010, 12:24 AM
I haven't had any bad experience... I just don't understand why someone defines their relationship with God based on their understanding of scripture. When they have not had any experience of God working a miracle either through them or in their presence so then due to their understanding of scripture, state that God don't work that way anymore. This threads is about interpretation of scripture... so, when they interpret this, they're wrong... as God does do miraculous works through the Body of Christ today.

Who is saying that? What I see here is people claiming that the bible must be properly interpreted, not that miracles don't happen or an understanding of scripture makes you more holy. I think you're drawing a distinction that doesn't exist.

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2010, 12:30 AM
Ummm.... can you explain this please???Sure... the Pharisees defined their relationship with God through their knowledge of the scriptures. They knew all they could about God but their relationship was far from a relationship with God even though they said they had a relationship with God. They knew all "about" God but didn't know God at all. Doctrine, their rituals, their religion actually separated them from a relationship with God.. even though they had all the knowledge about God. All they did was oppose Jesus, oppose His testimony because all they had was knowledge about God but didn't know Him.

Jesus came to begin a very intimate and personal relationship with us all, and them (Pharisees) if they only accepted Him. People were used to a relationship with God through their religion before Christ.

People today do the same... they know all they can about God, follow all the rituals of their religion, follow the scripts and rules of their denomination, never "experience" God because of this.

... As I sit back and do re-read the quote you pulled out, I can understand your question though... very open ended statement on my part.

Anyway... interpretation of scripture is a must but when the relationship with God is defined by this understanding... they don't know God, only about God... that is all that I'm trying to say.

Not very clearly though :(

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 12:36 AM
Knowledge of God through scriptures DOES NOT equal rituals and religion.

Please describe your relationship with God WITHOUT using your knowledge of scriptures please...

How did you get into a relationship with God?
What is your relationship based on?
How is it you interact with God?
Who is this God that you are in a relationship with?
Are there limits to your relationship?

notuptome
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:24 AM
Knowledge of God through scriptures DOES NOT equal rituals and religion.

Please describe your relationship with God WITHOUT using your knowledge of scriptures please...

How did you get into a relationship with God?
What is your relationship based on?
How is it you interact with God?
Who is this God that you are in a relationship with?
Are there limits to your relationship?
It is not evident that he knows you are trying to help him. This is a slow down and think kind of moment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:35 AM
Knowledge of God through scriptures DOES NOT equal rituals and religion.

Please describe your relationship with God WITHOUT using your knowledge of scriptures please...

How did you get into a relationship with God?
What is your relationship based on?
How is it you interact with God?
Who is this God that you are in a relationship with?
Are there limits to your relationship?


It is not evident that he knows you are trying to help him. This is a slow down and think kind of moment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Actually Roger... this can be a plank in ones own eye moment as well.

UM... thanks dude because Roger did voice the obvious... this is a good eval to do of one self and it's not gonna be done in one moment and will seek resting in the Lord to fully answer and the answer will change as any relationship in Christ deepens.

Ya know... for quite awhile now I have been in prayer concerning my identity in Christ. As it was asked of me once... do I know my place in the Kingdom of God and is so, what does that mean? As I began to even understand this question and have begun to answer this for myself as God points much out to me, I have also experienced something I didn't expect at the beginning of this... Jesus is also defining Himself in me.

Now to itemize, all the elements of this time with Christ... pretty much can be lumped into what you just asked.

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 02:53 AM
That was not to challenge you to answer Slug, it was to show the utter helplessness of trying to separate the proper study/interpretation scripture from what you experience. Your experience can never trump what we know from scripture...

Dani H
Apr 22nd 2010, 03:32 AM
I pesonally take no issue with intellectual honesty. I think it matters that we know what we believe, and why, and that we're consistent with it.

However, I must ask, if we claim to serve an all powerful God, then where has all the power gone amongst all this searching for intellectual honesty?

I'd be curious to find how we can combine both, because certainly Paul who was a learned man, had both. The man could reason in the synagogue one day and raise a little boy from the dead the next (well not literally the next day but you know what I mean).

Because I gotta tell you, much searching for intellectual things seems, to my mind, lead to debating and arguing and nit-picking more so than the "simple faith" Slug1 speaks of (I guess you would call it), and I'd like to hear from the intellectuals among us how you see the power of God displayed in your personal lives on a daily basis, a la Paul.

I'm also curious as to why "simple faith" is so often regarded as "intellectually dishonest" or "presumptuous" and whether or not there's some prejudice involved on some sides here that need rooted out and discarded, because from where I sit, I see no fault with either and no reason for this to be an either/or debate, but rather "both" depending on one's make-up and the way God has designed and equipped them for. I see no reason why both sides can't be right.

Any thoughts?

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:31 AM
Any thoughts?Thanks Dani...

You already know my answer. If I can interpret the entire Bible but not once in my life do I have a moment of testimony where God used my faith alone... to reach out through me and do a miracle that He can glorify Himself with... then what is the result of all that interpreted knowledge... nada!

I don't want any Christian to go through life... knowing all they can about God through scripture, but have never experienced God.

I don't want any Christians testimony to be summed up as... "You're wrong, I'm right because this is the correct interpretation."

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 12:45 PM
On the same token Slug, we also need to quit saying things like...


I do not need scripture to confirm to me what I see quite regulary.

There IS a balance. God has performed many biblical style miracles in my ministry AND I also strive to maintain a proper interpretation of scripture. The two are not opposed.


Here is an example of experience over scripture...

I was raised in a neo-pentecostal church. The crazier the services got and the less order there was the "better" the service was. As I got older though, I found out that scripture says that there is to be order during the operation of the gifts in the assembly. This was a foreign concept to me. I can promise you that almost every single person THOUGHT they were being led by the Holy Spirit. Do you think that 50 people running around, speaking in tongues, giving interpretations, giving a "Word" to somebody is being led of God? Why or why not?

(BTW, you know I believe in all of the gifts and their application and use today, right??? That is not the issue, or even a question in my mind)

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2010, 12:53 PM
That was not to challenge you to answer Slug, it was to show the utter helplessness of trying to separate the proper study/interpretation scripture from what you experience. Your experience can never trump what we know from scripture...Experience puts meaning to all the study and terping that I do receive from God as He leads me through the Bible. Due to experience, God gives us hands on of all He says through His Word as He works through us and then we have testimony that He's given us to proclaim and He is glorified.

I don't understand how any Christian can read all that is in the Bible and not once in their life have they cast out a demon, or healed someone, or have any experience that required God to empower them through His Spirit... it just don't make no sense.

Interpretation without action or experience? Then what has all the terping done for such a person except for the fact that they know alot about God?

All that their terping has done... it's convinced them that God don't do empowerment of Christians today in the Body of Christ. We see this all over the board as their "knowledge" and interpretation has determined that any testimony that involves faith and any manifestation of the Holy Spirit as false. Some even resist the Holy Spirit and won't even allow Him the freedom He is due, during their church services.

You know, I know and all other Christians who are used by God to work in the Body of Christ with any of the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit know... knowing God and knowing about God are way two different things.

I've always said that the Testimonies forum on this forum should be the most used. Sure, it's nice to let people know that we've learned about in the Bible, I do this in many threads as well, we all do on this board. It's good to lay out our questions and gather in what others have disovered in the Bible, discuss, debate, interpret, anyalze etc... but what is God doing through us and all that knowledge? How is He putting that knowledge to His use, or are we only seeking more and more knowledge and God still isn't doing anything through us?

So sure... proper interpretation is a must, I've said this... but as Dani said as well, we have to balance this with God's POWER through His Word also in action as God works "through" us.

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:11 PM
On the same token Slug, we also need to quit saying things like...



There IS a balance. God has performed many biblical style miracles in my ministry AND I also strive to maintain a proper interpretation of scripture. The two are not opposed.


Here is an example of experience over scripture...

I was raised in a neo-pentecostal church. The crazier the services got and the less order there was the "better" the service was. As I got older though, I found out that scripture says that there is to be order during the operation of the gifts in the assembly. This was a foreign concept to me. I can promise you that almost every single person THOUGHT they were being led by the Holy Spirit. Do you think that 50 people running around, speaking in tongues, giving interpretations, giving a "Word" to somebody is being led of God? Why or why not?

(BTW, you know I believe in all of the gifts and their application and use today, right??? That is not the issue, or even a question in my mind)I was writing while you posted (#72), I know you have experienced and believe in the gifts.

I agree with you 100% of your example... I praise God that I have never experienced this at all except in testimonies as you just relayed and in video which actually made me ill watching. These are not the experiences I've experienced and I pray I never visit a church that does do this. If God leads me to one, I figure it's to offer correction. Just as Paul did to the Corinthians. Churches like this need to really do a Bible study of 1 Cor 12-14.

Anyway... as I read through this post and the one I just posted above while you were posting... I think we're coming together... I pray :)

In our church, if a word gets to a person without first going through the pastor... talk about detention :lol:

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:14 PM
From what I gather, it looks like you're both offering a different perspective of the same thing. The Word of God is one of the most important tools through which God reveals Himself to us. Where would we be in our relationship with God without the Word of God? It helps define spiritual reality. On the other hand, what good is a bunch of words on a page without the experience of what those words are speaking about? A whole bunch of knowledge can make you blind to the truth of something - especially if your pride has made you inflexible and unwilling to accept any other interpretation than your own as truth. We need experience as well as the arguments offered from Scripture. The two need not be contrary to each other.

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:22 PM
I agree with you 100% of your example...

We are a lot closer than you think... :D

How do you know, and how do you judge that those people were not being led by the Spirit? They experienced it in almost every service. They are absolutely convinced that it was God giving them the utterances. How can you possibly tell them it is not???

th1bill
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:33 PM
I pesonally take no issue with intellectual honesty. I think it matters that we know what we believe, and why, and that we're consistent with it.

However, I must ask, if we claim to serve an all powerful God, then where has all the power gone amongst all this searching for intellectual honesty?

I'd be curious to find how we can combine both, because certainly Paul who was a learned man, had both. The man could reason in the synagogue one day and raise a little boy from the dead the next (well not literally the next day but you know what I mean).

Because I gotta tell you, much searching for intellectual things seems, to my mind, lead to debating and arguing and nit-picking more so than the "simple faith" Slug1 speaks of (I guess you would call it), and I'd like to hear from the intellectuals among us how you see the power of God displayed in your personal lives on a daily basis, a la Paul.

I'm also curious as to why "simple faith" is so often regarded as "intellectually dishonest" or "presumptuous" and whether or not there's some prejudice involved on some sides here that need rooted out and discarded, because from where I sit, I see no fault with either and no reason for this to be an either/or debate, but rather "both" depending on one's make-up and the way God has designed and equipped them for. I see no reason why both sides can't be right.

Any thoughts?

Great post Dani. I stood in the middle of the South Vietnam Highlands one morning in 1966 and cursed God, I was a self endowed atheist who carried a military GED. Suddenly a still quiet voice replied, "Why curse me, you don't even believe." For the atheist the answer is obvious, "In the moment of my extreme distress over finding my best friend after taking an 81mm mortar in the chest, I thought it to myself."

The problem with that answer is that I was grieving so much that all I could think of or see for the next three months was Heinen lying there on his bunk with his head and extremities blown about the tent. As a result of that exchange I began an intellectual journey that took just over 23 years of investigation and interetation. After closely examining the theories of origin I discarded them as rubbish science. I looked into other religions and the Christian Religion as well but no God.

It was obvious that He existed, He had spoken to me. Throughout these years God sent a number of witness' to me and so did Satan and all I had to run on was simple faith. I knew He was somewhere but I could not find Him. I looked everywhere except next to, in front of and right behind me. In December of '89 the Holy Spirit's presence became so pronounced that I was often in tears and I promised Him that as soon as I played my New Years Gig I would get out of the juke joints and go to church.

I made that gig until I rang in the New Year for the drunks, it was in the middle of that song that the Holy Spirit overcame me and I walked out without the three hundred dollar check that was my acess to another car. As a result of my simple faith God saw to it that I no longer rode to work on my bicycle in the rain. It was then that I began to consume the scriptures, not to find God but to learn more about Him. With God working in my life combined with my increasing knowledge from my studies I have reached the point that my faith is unshakable.

The VA shrink says that I'm suffering from PTSD and that I Hyper-alert. A simptom of the HA is that I am constantly thinking ahead. When I'm not busy with something I plan ahead for "What if." I began this practice in combat and I seem unable to stop it now. When I flew in Vietnam my life expectancy was three and one half minutes. Every day I knew that and I made the decision to take my position anyway, kids out there in the jungle needed me before I even woke up. Living as close to the end as I know we are I have thought through the scenario of my extermination from several angles and still, just as I figured every day of three tours that today is likely my time and took my place anyway, I am ready to be exterminated for the cause of Christ.

That is the combination of Blind Faith and intellect that Paul had and that God wants from His servants.

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:41 PM
We are a lot closer than you think... :D

How do you know, and how do you judge that those people were not being led by the Spirit? They experienced it in almost every service. They are absolutely convinced that it was God giving them the utterances. How can you possibly tell them it is not???If I was led by God to step up on the altar and the Holy Spirit give me the words and through the authority I have in Christ... I was to pray and not only command the silence but also order the removal of all the spirits that are causing all the chaos... I'd expect this would gain their attention.

Discernment... I know you're exercised this... in your example, it seems it's a matter of closing a door that the enemy has opened upon the altar to give him the authority he has over all in the church.

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:45 PM
I have seen some silly things come from people's discernment Slug... I am sure you have too.

In our scenario, they feel led in their actions, just as you do in correcting them. What says you are correct and sound in your correction?

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:46 PM
Great post Dani. I stood in the middle of the South Vietnam Highlands one morning in 1966 and cursed God, I was a self endowed atheist who carried a military GED. Suddenly a still quiet voice replied, "Why curse me, you don't even believe." For the atheist the answer is obvious, "In the moment of my extreme distress over finding my best friend after taking an 81mm mortar in the chest, I thought it to myself."

The problem with that answer is that I was grieving so much that all I could think of or see for the next three months was Heinen lying there on his bunk with his head and extremities blown about the tent. As a result of that exchange I began an intellectual journey that took just over 23 years of investigation and interetation. After closely examining the theories of origin I discarded them as rubbish science. I looked into other religions and the Christian Religion as well but no God.

It was obvious that He existed, He had spoken to me. Throughout these years God sent a number of witness' to me and so did Satan and all I had to run on was simple faith. I knew He was somewhere but I could not find Him. I looked everywhere except next to, in front of and right behind me. In December of '89 the Holy Spirit's presence became so pronounced that I was often in tears and I promised Him that as soon as I played my New Years Gig I would get out of the juke joints and go to church.

I made that gig until I rang in the New Year for the drunks, it was in the middle of that song that the Holy Spirit overcame me and I walked out without the three hundred dollar check that was my acess to another car. As a result of my simple faith God saw to it that I no longer rode to work on my bicycle in the rain. It was then that I began to consume the scriptures, not to find God but to learn more about Him. With God working in my life combined with my increasing knowledge from my studies I have reached the point that my faith is unshakable.

The VA shrink says that I'm suffering from PTSD and that I Hyper-alert. A simptom of the HA is that I am constantly thinking ahead. When I'm not busy with something I plan ahead for "What if." I began this practice in combat and I seem unable to stop it now. When I flew in Vietnam my life expectancy was three and one half minutes. Every day I knew that and I made the decision to take my position anyway, kids out there in the jungle needed me before I even woke up. Living as close to the end as I know we are I have thought through the scenario of my extermination from several angles and still, just as I figured every day of three tours that today is likely my time and took my place anyway, I am ready to be exterminated for the cause of Christ.

That is the combination of Blind Faith and intellect that Paul had and that God wants from His servants.Thank you Bill!

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2010, 01:47 PM
I have seen some silly things come from people's discernment Slug... I am sure you have to.

In your scenario, they feel led in their actions, just as you do in correcting them. What says you are correct and sound in your correction?The Living Word of God... hooah dude... you broke through!

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 02:23 PM
:pp :pp :pp

Here is what I believe...

All the biblical knowledge in the world without putting it into practice is completely useless, BUT... practicing "spiritual knowledge" without a proper biblical understanding can be devastating both to the one that does it and those around them...

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 02:26 PM
The Living Word of God...

This is why I believe that the scriptures are the ultimate authority in ALL matters of faith and conduct.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 22nd 2010, 02:31 PM
This is why I believe that the scriptures are the ultimate authority in ALL matters of faith and conduct.

When I left for Bible College, my father told me, "Ben, the ultimate measure of all truth is the Word of God. Measure anything you hear and see by it to see if it's straight or crooked, and you won't go wrong."

crawfish
Apr 22nd 2010, 03:04 PM
I pesonally take no issue with intellectual honesty. I think it matters that we know what we believe, and why, and that we're consistent with it.

However, I must ask, if we claim to serve an all powerful God, then where has all the power gone amongst all this searching for intellectual honesty?

I'd be curious to find how we can combine both, because certainly Paul who was a learned man, had both. The man could reason in the synagogue one day and raise a little boy from the dead the next (well not literally the next day but you know what I mean).

Because I gotta tell you, much searching for intellectual things seems, to my mind, lead to debating and arguing and nit-picking more so than the "simple faith" Slug1 speaks of (I guess you would call it), and I'd like to hear from the intellectuals among us how you see the power of God displayed in your personal lives on a daily basis, a la Paul.

I'm also curious as to why "simple faith" is so often regarded as "intellectually dishonest" or "presumptuous" and whether or not there's some prejudice involved on some sides here that need rooted out and discarded, because from where I sit, I see no fault with either and no reason for this to be an either/or debate, but rather "both" depending on one's make-up and the way God has designed and equipped them for. I see no reason why both sides can't be right.

Any thoughts?

You can, and should, definitely have both. God works through us, and He provided His word to guide us. He did, however, provide each of us with unique talents. Some of us are more connected to emotions and feelings and best express our spirituality through them, and some are more connected to thought and reason and best express our spirituality that way. The problems arise from both sides: the former can become insecure leading to anti-intellectualism, and the latter can become condescending leading to nitpicking and debate. The former can lead to some very wrong-headed theology, and to a resistence to anybody telling them they're wrong; the latter can lead to legalism and judgementalism.

The bible has power like nothing else when used properly. The bible also has power to do evil when misused. We absolutely need rules for interpretation; without it, any interpretation becomes possible. It should be our mission to ensure that we understand it as well as we can. Conversely, it must be understood that the Holy Spirit is separate from scripture, and acts apart from it; The HS will not contradict scripture, so if we have done our homework properly, we will know without question whether someone is truly being led by the HS or not.

notuptome
Apr 22nd 2010, 03:41 PM
The OP asks is there one interpretation of the bible which is what logic and reason would declare? If there is one Spirit and there is why do not all arrive at the same conclusions? Intellectual honesty is required in the first analysis for logic and reason. Is Spiritual honesty required for the latter? We can test for intellectual honesty. We can test for Spiritual honesty as well. How then do we wind up with competing and often conflicting interpretations? The Holy Spirit cannot lie. The Holy Spirit speaks not of Himself but Christ. A quite complex and paradoxical problem.

Intellect will not resolve the problem on it's own. The Spirit will not resolve the problem because the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked. Jer 17:9 The word of God is immuteable it is the councel of God and God cannot lie. Heb 6:17-18 God has given us both His word and His Spirit that we may know the truth. The question remains God is willing are we?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 03:45 PM
The Holy Spirit speaks not of Himself but Christ.

Here's a real noodle baker for ya... How do we know that the Holy Spirit speaks not of Himself but of Christ??? ...And for that matter, how do we know ANYTHING about the Holy Spirit???

notuptome
Apr 22nd 2010, 03:48 PM
Here's a real noodle baker for ya... How do we know that the Holy Spirit speaks not of Himself but of Christ???
Jesus said it in John 16:13-15

If I have read it correctly of course.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 03:50 PM
You have read it correctly. :D

But who is it that inspired scripture???

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 22nd 2010, 03:57 PM
You have read it correctly. :D

But who is it that inspired scripture???

...the Holy Spirit!!

Firefighter
Apr 22nd 2010, 03:59 PM
So the Holy Spirit, that does not speak of Himself, inspired all of the scriptures that speak of Him???

:B :B :B

I have baked my noodle on that one for years. I am going to have to simply ask God one day about that one when I get there... :lol:

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 22nd 2010, 04:00 PM
So the Holy Spirit, that does not speak of Himself, inspired all of the scriptures that speak of Him???

:B :B :B

I have baked my noodle on that one for years. I am going to have to simply ask God one day about that one... :lol:

It comes down to faith really...don't you think? And where does faith come from? Revelation! And where does revelation come from? Ah...the Holy Spirit! :)

notuptome
Apr 22nd 2010, 04:15 PM
So the Holy Spirit, that does not speak of Himself, inspired all of the scriptures that speak of Him???

:B :B :B

I have baked my noodle on that one for years. I am going to have to simply ask God one day about that one when I get there... :lol:
I perceive it as God breathed the scriptures and the Holy Spirit moved men to write it down. So the Holy Spirit did not inspire it as much as He directed men to record what the Father said. Isa 55:11 Jehovah speaks that His word goes forth and accomplishes that to which He has purposed it. In 2 Pet 1:21 we see the Holy Spirit taking the word of God from the Father and moving men to speak it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Dani H
Apr 22nd 2010, 04:23 PM
To me, the Bible answers two utmost important questions:

Who is God/who is Jesus?

How am I to behave?

Isn't that ultimately what it boils down to, why we study Scripture? So we can get a clear picture of God and what He expects from us? I see no other overshadowing reason, personally, to study the Bible. There is no other sacred text out there that tells me of Jesus and of God's covenant with us the way the Bible does. The Bible addresses all of the foundational issues that mankind grapples with. All of them. With clarity. Good and evil, purity, holiness, where we came from, where we're going, all those foundational things that are on everyone's mind all over the world.

The early Church had "only" the Old Testament to go by. They also used Scripture to a) show that Jesus is the Christ (very important!), and b) as a foundation for their personal conduct based on who God revealed Himself to be through His Word. And if that was what God blessed with His power during those days, then I've no reason to believe that I cannot have this same power, today, so that I can share with others the Way to eternal life.

If what I study has no impact on my conduct, then am I studying the right thing for the right reasons? If what I study does not end up grounding me in faith in a deeper way and afford me a closer relation with the Lord, who I intend to spend all eternity with, then am I studying for the right reason?

If we believe that eternity starts now, and that the next life is a continuation of this life, that I bring who I am into eternity with me, that I continue my relationship with the Lord there that I have already begun here, then I think the Bible's role is very clear.

I really am a very firm proponent of the importance of "why" just as much, if not more so than "how." We can debate "how" all day long, but really, why are we studying to begin with?

That's not to derail your thread, Butch, just trying to take it a little deeper, is all. Hope that's okay. :)

Butch5
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:27 PM
I pesonally take no issue with intellectual honesty. I think it matters that we know what we believe, and why, and that we're consistent with it.

However, I must ask, if we claim to serve an all powerful God, then where has all the power gone amongst all this searching for intellectual honesty?

I'd be curious to find how we can combine both, because certainly Paul who was a learned man, had both. The man could reason in the synagogue one day and raise a little boy from the dead the next (well not literally the next day but you know what I mean).

Because I gotta tell you, much searching for intellectual things seems, to my mind, lead to debating and arguing and nit-picking more so than the "simple faith" Slug1 speaks of (I guess you would call it), and I'd like to hear from the intellectuals among us how you see the power of God displayed in your personal lives on a daily basis, a la Paul.

I'm also curious as to why "simple faith" is so often regarded as "intellectually dishonest" or "presumptuous" and whether or not there's some prejudice involved on some sides here that need rooted out and discarded, because from where I sit, I see no fault with either and no reason for this to be an either/or debate, but rather "both" depending on one's make-up and the way God has designed and equipped them for. I see no reason why both sides can't be right.

Any thoughts?

Dani,

There was no debate, I was simply suggesting a book that does an excellent job of instructing how to properly interpret the Scriptures. This Thread did not address faith, that was not the issue. My point was that as a church we are divided, against the wishes of Christ. My contention is that this division is a direct result of Christians not being able to properly interpret the Scriptures. Many cannot interpret the Scriptures so they rely on others to do so for them. However, since they cannot interpret the Scriptures they cannot tell when someone is teaching them wrong and thus they fall to false teaching, whether intentional or not. These same Christians will then go and teach what they have been taught, and will also argue and debates those who have an opposing view. However, when they are faced with a contradiction or someone shows them that Scripture is actually opposed to their interpretation they simply ignore the evidence, being intellectually dishonest.

When I speak of being intellectually honest, I am not referring the level of one's intelligence. I am referring to one being honest at the intellectual level. To be intellectually honest one must address Scripture when it confronts them about their doctrine, not stick their fingers in their ears and go na, na, na, na or close their eyes and quickly turn the page pretending they didn't see it. They must be willing to let Scripture say what it says no matter what that means for their doctrines.

I can speak about this because I was there, before I learned how to interpret Scripture, a friend and I used to debate the Scriptures because we had opposing views. I look back on it now and it seems ridiculous, there we were going back and forth and both of us were wrong. It was no wonder we never made any progress, I would give him Scripture that would stump him and he would give me Scripture the would stump me. He no longer stumps me, however, he won't discuss the Scriptures with me now because I continually stump him

The point is that if we would all learn how to "properly" interpret the Scriptures we could have unity.

Butch5
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:36 PM
Thanks Dani...

You already know my answer. If I can interpret the entire Bible but not once in my life do I have a moment of testimony where God used my faith alone... to reach out through me and do a miracle that He can glorify Himself with... then what is the result of all that interpreted knowledge... nada!

I don't want any Christian to go through life... knowing all they can about God through scripture, but have never experienced God.

I don't want any Christians testimony to be summed up as... "You're wrong, I'm right because this is the correct interpretation."

Slug1, Why do you continue to try to separate them? They are two sides of the same coin, no one is saying Biblical interpretation alone is all one needs. Biblical interpretation is the issue which causes much of the discension among Protestant Christians, which is why I suggested the book.

notuptome
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:36 PM
Dani,

There was no debate, I was simply suggesting a book that does an excellent job of instructing how to properly interpret the Scriptures. This Thread did not address faith, that was not the issue. My point was that as a church we are divided, against the wishes of Christ. My contention is that this division is a direct result of Christians not being able to properly interpret the Scriptures. Many cannot interpret the Scriptures so they rely on others to do so for them. However, since they cannot interpret the Scriptures they cannot tell when someone is teaching them wrong and thus they fall to false teaching, whether intentional or not. These same Christians will then go and teach what they have been taught, and will also argue and debates those who have an opposing view. However, when they are faced with a contradiction or someone shows them that Scripture is actually opposed to their interpretation they simply ignore the evidence, being intellectually dishonest.

When I speak of being intellectually honest, I am not referring the level of one's intelligence. I am referring to one being honest at the intellectual level. To be intellectually honest one must address Scripture when it confronts them about their doctrine, not stick their fingers in their ears and go na, na, na, na or close their eyes and quickly turn the page pretending they didn't see it. They must be willing to let Scripture say what it says no matter what that means for their doctrines.

I can speak about this because I was there, before I learned how to interpret Scripture, a friend and I used to debate the Scriptures because we had opposing views. I look back on it now and it seems ridiculous, there we were going back and forth and both of us were wrong. It was no wonder we never made any progress, I would give him Scripture that would stump him and he would give me Scripture the would stump me. He no longer stumps me, however, he won't discuss the Scriptures with me now because I continually stump him

The point is that if we would all learn how to "properly" interpret the Scriptures we could have unity.
There is only One who can properly interpret the scriptures. The Holy Spirit but for Him to operate we must be willing to be led into the truth and not resist to preserve our ideas of righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:47 PM
The OP asks is there one interpretation of the bible which is what logic and reason would declare? If there is one Spirit and there is why do not all arrive at the same conclusions? Intellectual honesty is required in the first analysis for logic and reason. Is Spiritual honesty required for the latter? We can test for intellectual honesty. We can test for Spiritual honesty as well. How then do we wind up with competing and often conflicting interpretations? The Holy Spirit cannot lie. The Holy Spirit speaks not of Himself but Christ. A quite complex and paradoxical problem.

Intellect will not resolve the problem on it's own. The Spirit will not resolve the problem because the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked. Jer 17:9 The word of God is immuteable it is the councel of God and God cannot lie. Heb 6:17-18 God has given us both His word and His Spirit that we may know the truth. The question remains God is willing are we?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well said Roger!

Butch5
Apr 22nd 2010, 11:57 PM
There is only One who can properly interpret the scriptures. The Holy Spirit but for Him to operate we must be willing to be led into the truth and not resist to preserve our ideas of righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

My post is not about the HS, it is about the rules we use to interpret Scripture. As you pointed out, we all claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, yet we come to many, many, different conclusions. I can't believe that the Holy Spirit is leading all of these different Christians to all of these different theologies. The Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is a guide, they don't say He is going to pour the knowledge into our brains. Therefore we must study and to study properly we must have a basis for our interpretation. I would bet if you asked 100 Christians what the basis is for their interpretations of Scripture, at least 95 wouldn't have a clue. This shows that our churches are not doing a good job in this area, I suspect because many who are leading these Christians also cannot give you the basis for their interpretations. I am beginning to think that today's Christianity comes more from commentaries than from the Bible.

notuptome
Apr 23rd 2010, 12:12 AM
My post is not about the HS, it is about the rules we use to interpret Scripture. As you pointed out, we all claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, yet we come to many, many, different conclusions. I can't believe that the Holy Spirit is leading all of these different Christians to all of these different theologies. The Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is a guide, they don't say He is going to pour the knowledge into our brains. Therefore we must study and to study properly we must have a basis for our interpretation. I would bet if you asked 100 Christians what the basis is for their interpretations of Scripture, at least 95 wouldn't have a clue. This shows that our churches are not doing a good job in this area, I suspect because many who are leading these Christians also cannot give you the basis for their interpretations. I am beginning to think that today's Christianity comes more from commentaries than from the Bible.
The Holy Spirit must create a desire in the heart of the believer to study Gods word. It is not always easy to arrive at the truth in a given passage. Sometimes it takes years of study to sound the depths of a single passage. Few are willing to devote the time and study required so they take the shortcut route. Adopt anothers position as their own. Education has failed and entertainment has taken over and monopolized the minds of many. Dicipline is gone and immediate gratification is required.

Lest we be discouraged God always has a remnant that have not bowed the knee to TV, video games or Baal.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

kay-gee
Apr 23rd 2010, 03:31 AM
Hi notuptome. I agree that it takes years of study sometimes to fully grasp some concepts.

However, I find it is the simple stuff that trips people up.

For example, Butch5 and I and others bring up Acts 2:38 quite often in our discussions. Acts 2:38 is not a difficut verse to understand or to execute.

If I sid to you... "go to the store for milk" How many years would it take to interpret this command? Well my friend, Acts 2:38 is no more difficult to interpret than... "go to the store for milk." Go is the action..where to go is the store, what to buy when you get there, is milk. What's the problem?

Acts 2:38 says "repent and be baptized every one of you for the remmission of sins and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit." I can't for the life of me, figure out what the problem is with understanding it. If your boss gave you a command as simple as that, I doubt that you would misinterpret it!

Yet, in our debates, it appears to be huge problem. I can only surmise that people approach the Bible with doctrine intact and simply refuse to see and obey the simplest things, even when presented to them, by the Holy Spirit. After all the Holy Bible is given to us by the Holy Spirit. No?

all the best...

ClayInHisHands
Apr 23rd 2010, 05:31 AM
Here's another example. Scripture says that God cannot lie. Most Christians that I have spoken to about this passage say that it means that God is incapable of lying. Is that what it means? I contend that that is not what it means. There are many things that could make prevent someone from doing something. For instance, suppose you handed me a baseball bat and said there is a dog out back, I want you to go and beat it with the bat. In response I say, I could never do such a thing, Am I saying that I am physically incapable of doing it? No, I am physically capable, however, it is so against my nature that I could not bring myself to do it. I contend that this is how the statement "God cannot lie" should be read, and Scriptures back it up. If we take the interpretation that God in incapable then we wind up with a contradiction. Scriptures says that God cannot lie, Scripture also says that Christ is the express image of God, it says that all the fullness of Godhood dwells in Christ bodily. Scripture also says that Christ was made like his brethren in"ALL" ways. Man has the ability to lie, if Christ was made like man in "all" ways then Christ must have had the ability to lie and if Christ is the express image of God they God must have the ability to lie, but chooses not to. However, even in light of this many will still say that God is incapable, meaning not having the ability. This is what I am talking about, even when logic and common sense shows us that our position cannot be correct we will not abandon it.

So would you say that God can sin...he just chooses not to? How can He have the capability to enter into darkness....he's light?

Can God tempt us, but he just chooses not to? How can we reconcile this? Do we just tell each other...the Word says God won't tempt us and we just trust that? Then couldn't Christians and unbelievers argue that God might be tempting us to accomplish His will in our life, and in that sense it's not evil because He has a purpose? Not that I think He can or would, but that's the argument that would be brought up.


So as similar to the 1st two questions.....Would you say that God can lie...he just chooses not to? How can He have the capability to enter into darkness....he's light?



if Christ was made like man in "all" ways then Christ must have had the ability to lie and if Christ is the express image of God they God must have the ability to lie, but chooses not to.


Wouldn't that be the human(fully man) side that gives Jesus that ability...not the fully God side?


In Christ's Love

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 01:03 PM
Hi notuptome. I agree that it takes years of study sometimes to fully grasp some concepts.

However, I find it is the simple stuff that trips people up.

For example, Butch5 and I and others bring up Acts 2:38 quite often in our discussions. Acts 2:38 is not a difficult verse to understand or to execute.

If I said to you... "go to the store for milk" How many years would it take to interpret this command? Well my friend, Acts 2:38 is no more difficult to interpret than... "go to the store for milk." Go is the action..where to go is the store, what to buy when you get there, is milk. What's the problem?

Acts 2:38 says "repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." I can't for the life of me, figure out what the problem is with understanding it. If your boss gave you a command as simple as that, I doubt that you would misinterpret it!

Yet, in our debates, it appears to be huge problem. I can only surmise that people approach the Bible with doctrine intact and simply refuse to see and obey the simplest things, even when presented to them, by the Holy Spirit. After all the Holy Bible is given to us by the Holy Spirit. No?

all the best...

I agree kay-gee, people have their preconceived ideas such as God must save everyone the same way, where is this taught in Scripture? They use this argument to say that Acts 10 trumps Acts 2, when the event in Acts 10 happened only "ONCE" that is recorded in Scripture. So at best their argument can say it happened once this way, yet many will say this proves that people receive the Spirit before they are baptized. No, it doesn't, it proves that it happened this way "ONCE", there is no promise that this (ACTS 10) will ever happen again. However, Acts 2 is a promise to those who believe.

However, many just reject this evidence in favor of their preconceived ideas and never let the Scriptures speak to them. There is no promise that Acts 10 will ever happen again, yet there is a promise that Acts 2 will happen again, and again, as people believe. But as I said they will look right past this evidence because they have already determined that a person receives the Holy Spirit the instant they believe.

ClayInHisHands
Apr 23rd 2010, 01:11 PM
Where on earth do you get "enabled the Holy Spirit" from??? This is a clear example of letting your theology lead your biblical interpretation...

Does every single Christian believe that they are filled with the Holy Spirit? I know in the account of Peter it doesn't say that the Holy Spirit empowered him but how else could one conclude that he walked on the water....in his own strength?....I don't think so....then we better call the Word Faith movement, apologize, and tell them they've been right all along....if we have enough faith...WE CAN DO ANYTHING? No. If WE HAVE ENOUGH FAITH IN CHRIST then WE CAN DO ANYTHING....Because it's Christ DOING IT!!

My theology from reading the Word Of God is that I can do all things IN CHRIST who strengthens me.

I only quoted you Chris, and I believe two others agreed with you also, so I'm not singling you out, okay. Unless I'm misunderstanding, I don't see how our universal belief that we are all filled with the Holy Spirit can't play into what happened with Peter. Now, I do understand that the "HOLY SPIRIT", "THE COMFORTER" was not "technically" here yet until Pentecost. But I think we all agree that God/Jesus empowered him(gave Peter the strength/enough belief or faith). Basically, Peter didn't even realize what he was doing because he was doing what his master instructed. But when Peter "checked his reasoning" he took his eyes off of Jesus and thus he began to sink....So with that, Peter wasn't doing it in his own ability or strength, but it was the Strength of God alone. In a sense...His Holy Spirit.


When we fix our eyes on Jesus we will have victory...even if in our human circumstances it doesn't seem like we have victory from a worlds point of view. But if we have turmoil and chaos in our lives and we begin to think "oh, I don't know, this is hard" and then we subconsciously try in our own strength to make things right....that is when we take our eyes off of Jesus and our victory over our circumstances and our life is hindered...because we use our human strength and not Christ's strength.


In Christ's Love


I want everyone to know that when I use big letters and ALL CAPS that I'm just trying to get across emphasis and my point as best as I can and I am not trying to be sarcastic or rude.

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 01:28 PM
So would you say that God can sin...he just chooses not to? How can He have the capability to enter into darkness....he's light?

Can God tempt us, but he just chooses not to? How can we reconcile this? Do we just tell each other...the Word says God won't tempt us and we just trust that? Then couldn't Christians and unbelievers argue that God might be tempting us to accomplish His will in our life, and in that sense it's not evil because He has a purpose? Not that I think He can or would, but that's the argument that would be brought up.


So as similar to the 1st two questions.....Would you say that God can lie...he just chooses not to? How can He have the capability to enter into darkness....he's light?





Wouldn't that be the human(fully man) side that gives Jesus that ability...not the fully God side?


In Christ's Love

Hi Clay,

You raise some very good questions. The answer to your questions is "Yes", God can do them but chooses not to. Scripture says that God does not tempt us, it doesn't say he cannot tempt us. In Genesis God said let us make man in "Our" image. If man is made in the image of God, how could he lie if God cannot? If God is incapable of lying how could he create being that are capable. If we say that it is because of Satan, well, God also created Satan, who of his own free will choose to disobey God and lie. Surely God is greater than Satan. I don't think God would create a being with more ability than He himself.


Clay---Then couldn't Christians and unbelievers argue that God might be tempting us to accomplish His will in our life, and in that sense it's not evil because He has a purpose?

If it were temptation to sin then it would be evil, even if God had a plan for it. God has determined what is good and what is evil, He chooses that which is good. However, you bring up the issue of faith and trust. I think this scares many Christians, it is easy to have faith in a God who is incapable of lying, because obviously whatever He says is definitely going to happen, however, if God can lie then we must trust in his goodness and character rather than His inability to lie. For example, it is easy to trust God when you are standing on solid ground, it is harder to trust Him when you are standing in the middle of an earthquake. I believe it is a matter of where our trust lies, if God is incapable of lying then we are not putting our trust in His goodness and character, we are trusting in His inability to lie.

However, if we say that God is incapable of lying then we must find some way to reconcile the Scriptures. God said "Let us create man in our own image", Christ is the express image of God, the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily, and Christ was made like His brethren in all ways. Personally I don't know how you can reconcile these Scriptures with the idea that God is incapable of lying.

notuptome
Apr 23rd 2010, 01:38 PM
I agree kay-gee, people have their preconceived ideas such as God must save everyone the same way, where is this taught in Scripture?
Jesus said that He is the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father but by Him. John 14:6


They use this argument to say that Acts 10 trumps Acts 2, when the event in Acts 10 happened only "ONCE" that is recorded in Scripture. So at best their argument can say it happened once this way, yet many will say this proves that people receive the Spirit before they are baptized. No, it doesn't, it prove that it happened "ONCE", there is no promise that this (ACTS 10) will ever happen again. However, Acts 2 is promise to those who believe.

However, many just reject this evidence in favor of their preconceived ideas and never let the Scriptures speak to them. There is no promise that Acts 10 will ever happen again, yet there is a promise that Acts 2 will happen again, and again, as people believe. But as I said they will look right past this evidence because they have already determined that a person receives the Holy Spirit the instant they believe.
Well I'm glad to see that you have not slipped into allowing your theology to determine your interpretation of the scripture. I would not want to accuse you of "the pot calling the kettle black" ideology. Just like a politician you go right to your talking points to push your agenda. What happened to intellectual integrity and honesty let alone spiritual integrity and honesy?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Apr 23rd 2010, 01:47 PM
No. If WE HAVE ENOUGH FAITH IN CHRIST then WE CAN DO ANYTHING....Because it's Christ DOING IT!!

I agree totally. Christ was there. Christ called him out on the water, and Christ empowered him to do it. So where does the Holy Spirit come in???

Please address my previous post as to apparent conflicts with the Holy Spirit being read into the text...


This is why it is soooooo important to read the text and not read into the text.

Scripturally speaking...

1. There is no mention in the Holy Spirit's involvement in the given text.
2. This text appears prior to John 20:22 (Receive ye the Holy Ghost) and Luke 24:29 (wait until you are endued with power)
3. It predates the Holy Spirit's arrival with giftings (Acts 2)
4. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to give faith in a time of need as the Spirit wills (1 Corinthians 12:9,11)
5. The Holy Spirit's ministry to believers could NOT start until Jesus went away (John 16:7)

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 02:56 PM
notuptome---Jesus said that He is the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father but by Him. John 14:6

While this is true it does not require God to save everyone the same way. Christ shed his blood to redeem mankind thus all who would come through his blood, however, one is not saved because he is redeemed, if that were the case then all men would be saved. God requires faith as a prerequisite for salvation, but what about the infant who is incapable of faith? Can God save ham? If so then God has more than one method of salvation.


Well I'm glad to see that you have not slipped into allowing your theology to determine your interpretation of the scripture. I would not want to accuse you of "the pot calling the kettle black" ideology. Just like a politician you go right to your talking points to push your agenda. What happened to intellectual integrity and honesty let alone spiritual integrity and honesty?

Thanks for proving my point Roger, just as I said, you looked right past the evidence. The intellectual honesty was right there for you to see if you had chosen to. Let's look at the facts.

A. Acts 10 occurred once in recoded history.
B. Acts 10 is not a promise.
C. Acts 2 is a promise, a promise to all who will believe.
D. Acts 2 has happened millions and millions of times.
E. In Acts 10 Luke is recording a historical event of what happened as Peter was preaching at Cornelius' house.
F. In Acts 2 Luke is recording a historical event in which Peter is telling the Jews what they must do after they have believed.

What conclusions can we draw from this?

1. We don't know if the events of Acts 10 will ever be repeated, since there is no promise.
2. We do know that the events in Acts 2 have been repeated and will be repeated again since there is a promise that it will happen to those who believe.
3. In Acts 2 we have Peter explaining to the Jews what they are to do after they have believed in order to receive forgiveness of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit.
4. In Act 10 we have Peter preaching to those who are at Cornelius' house, and to his amazement the Holy Spirit falls on them while Peter is still preaching. If this was a common occurrence it doesn't seem that Peter would be amazed at this.

Then we have the issue of people receiving the Holy Spirit into an unclean vessel, since Peter teaches that it is through baptism that one receives the remission of sins.

So, you see Roger, there is the intellectual honesty, no, bringing theology to the Scriptures. Just plain old logic and common sense. Reading the passages for what they say and drawing a conclusion that does not contradict other Scriptures.

Slug1
Apr 23rd 2010, 03:05 PM
4. In Act 10 we have Peter preaching to those who are at Cornelius' house, and to his amazement the Holy Spirit falls on them while Peter is still preaching. If this was a common occurrence it doesn't seem that Peter would be amazed at this.
One point I'd like to make concerning your statement here... the surprise wasn't because it was an uncommon occurance... it was a surprise because Cornelius and his house were Gentiles and not Jews, yet the Holy Spirit still manifested through them.

Just like He does many times since then through Gentiles. The purpose or timing isn't the only impotance... the importance to make note is this... that this was the beginning of the Holy Spirit manifesting through Gentiles.

It's a fact that not only Jews but also Gentiles... all can receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit separate from the the Holy Spirit coming into them upon their acceptance of Jesus.

Just because each and every occurance isn't recorded in scripture doesn't mean this is a singular event or as you put it... not a promise. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't promised, I agree but is always available as God wills.

The promise IS that all can receive Christ if all they do is accept Him!

ClayInHisHands
Apr 23rd 2010, 03:06 PM
I have to say that I do trust in Gods Goodness and Character.....which is that He is ALL GOOD....Not one single shread of EVIL in Him. When God says trust Me I will be faithful....I believe Him. Nowhere in my mind does He want me to think....that at any moment He could leave me if He chooses to, because He won't, because HE DOES NOT LIE. So in a sense I can see what you're saying.....He could lie, because God is ALL POWERFULL. BUT, if He did Lie, He would cease being God and ALL His goodness would mean Absolutely Nothing!! And He would be no different than Satan. In God there is no darkness. He is Light and Light is Truth. God is perfectly Holy. Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No.


When someone says I do not except Christ and they die....God cannot have that person in His presence for eternity....you can't say GOD chooses not to save that person, THEY/WE have a choice.

God doesn't sway one way or the other, because He simply cannot...it's not in his character AT ALL!!


I have a problem saying God chooses not to lie, but He can if He wanted to.



Simply put, I think there is a huge difference between CANNOT and DOES NOT. If someone were to propose to God that He lie.....I don't believe it's in Gods nature to even ponder or entertain the thought of "hmm, I could lie to them, but I won't." You see what I mean?



In Christ's Love

ClayInHisHands
Apr 23rd 2010, 03:21 PM
I agree totally. Christ was there. Christ called him out on the water, and Christ empowered him to do it. So where does the Holy Spirit come in???

Please address my previous post as to apparent conflicts with the Holy Spirit being read into the text...

Right, it doesn't say anywhere the Holy Spirit was involved. I was giving support and defense to Slug1's comments in that WE as Christians...knowing how the Holy Spirit works...that it could be percieved in that event..."in a sense".

So I was saying that "in a sense" Christ works in Us with His Holy Spirit....so "in a sense" Christ's "Holy Spirit" was empowering Peter.



I wouldn't however propose this as an example in scripture of the Holy Spirit working inside of us. Because it could cause confusion and make them want to contradict scripture and say that the Holy Spirit hadn't come yet. So I was making a concession for the sake of argument or in other words I was agreeing with Slug1 from a hypothetical standpoint.



In Christ's Love

Firefighter
Apr 23rd 2010, 03:34 PM
May I ask what "In a sense" and "hypothetical" have to do with biblical interpretation? We have the living Word of God to rightly divide. We must be careful if we have to turn out heads to the side, squint our eyes, and stare at it until we can sorta kinda see how one could come to an interpretation... but I get what you are saying. :D

ClayInHisHands
Apr 23rd 2010, 03:46 PM
May I ask what "In a sense" and "hypothetical" have to do with biblical interpretation? We have the living Word of God to rightly divide. We must be careful if we have to turn out heads to the side, squint our eyes, and stare at it until we can sorta kinda see how one could come to an interpretation... but I get what you are saying. :D

You are right, I just seen this as more of an isolated exception. But yes, we should be very careful. So I'm going to try and stay away from hypotheticals.

:wave: Goodbye - hypothesis, proposition, supposition :thumbsdn:

:wave: Hello - assurance, certainty, fact, knowledge :thumbsup:

:D

Firefighter
Apr 23rd 2010, 03:49 PM
:wave: Goodbye - hypothesis, proposition, supposition :thumbsdn:

:wave: Hello - assurance, certainty, fact, knowledge :thumbsup:

:D

DUDE!!!! You just made me spit crackers and salami all over my desk at work!!! Bad, Bad Clay....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

ClayInHisHands
Apr 23rd 2010, 04:03 PM
DUDE!!!! You just made me spit crackers and salami all over my desk at work!!! Bad, Bad Clay....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


I'll be here all week and after that. :monkeyd:

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2010, 04:46 PM
Bible interpretation isn't a spiritual matter, it's a cognitive process. The Holy Spirit doesn't do the work for us, we must do the work ourselves. The role of the Holy Spirit is to help the Apostles bring us the truth from Jesus Christ. This is why we have a Bible in the first place, and not get our knowledge supernaturally through a mind meld with the Holy Spirit. The content of our faith comes in the form of propositional truth, which we get from a book that God superintended and inspired, but which engages our minds and hearts through the natural processes of our mind and mental faculties. For this reason, Bible interpretation utilizes human methods and techniques of reading for understanding, which take both instruction and practice.

notuptome
Apr 23rd 2010, 05:23 PM
Bible interpretation isn't a spiritual matter, it's a cognitive process. The Holy Spirit doesn't do the work for us, we must do the work ourselves. The role of the Holy Spirit is to help the Apostles bring us the truth from Jesus Christ. This is why we have a Bible in the first place, and not get our knowledge supernaturally through a mind meld with the Holy Spirit. The content of our faith comes in the form of propositional truth, which we get from a book that God superintended and inspired, but which engages our minds and hearts through the natural processes of our mind and mental faculties. For this reason, Bible interpretation utilizes human methods and techniques of reading for understanding, which take both instruction and practice.
Actually it is both Spiritual and cognitive. Where our ability ends Gods pick up and brings us to fruition. 1 Cor 1:17-21 & 1 Cor 2:13-16 We must be Christians and posess the Holy Spirit if we are to comprehend the things God has for us in His word. Those who are not born again cannot grasp the things that pertain to God.

I submit that God will not do for us what we can do for ourselves. We are instructed to study the word of God not sit idly by and expect God to infuse our minds with His knowledge.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 23rd 2010, 05:40 PM
While this is true it does not require God to save everyone the same way. Christ shed his blood to redeem mankind thus all who would come through his blood, however, one is not saved because he is redeemed, if that were the case then all men would be saved. God requires faith as a prerequisite for salvation, but what about the infant who is incapable of faith? Can God save ham? If so then God has more than one method of salvation.
One is not saved because he is redeemed?? What is that intended to mean?

That God does not impute the wages of sin to the innocent infant does not open the concept of multiple paths to salvation.


Thanks for proving my point Roger, just as I said, you looked right past the evidence. The intellectual honesty was right there for you to see if you had chosen to. Let's look at the facts.
...
So, you see Roger, there is the intellectual honesty, no, bringing theology to the Scriptures. Just plain old logic and common sense. Reading the passages for what they say and drawing a conclusion that does not contradict other Scriptures.
I wish you had the same zeal for proclaiming the gospel that you have for baptismal regeneration. We've been over these scriptures many times and you have deeply impressed the meaning of your choice upon your thinking.

2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Was your intent in this thread to discuss biblical interpretation or baptismal regeneration?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

divaD
Apr 23rd 2010, 05:55 PM
One is not saved because he is redeemed?? What is that intended to mean?




It would be like following a path, and finding what you're looking for at the end of the path, as long as you do not veer off the path. This particular path leads to redemption. As long as you stay on this path, and not veer off of it, at the end of the path, you are redeemed. How can anybody be redeemed, if they don't continue on, on this path that leads to redemption? The Bible is full of promises. All of these promises are conditional in some manner or another. I'd be willing to bet, that you can't find one promise in the Bible, where there is not also a condition to it. For example. If 10 people were promised 10,000 bucks if they win the race, isn't there a condition that has to be met first? That being, they have to win the race. If you can find any promise in the Bible, where a condition doesn't have to be met first, then you're just not reading deep enough.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2010, 06:23 PM
Actually it is both Spiritual and cognitive. Where our ability ends Gods pick up and brings us to fruition. 1 Cor 1:17-21 & 1 Cor 2:13-16 We must be Christians and posess the Holy Spirit if we are to comprehend the things God has for us in His word. Those who are not born again cannot grasp the things that pertain to God.

I submit that God will not do for us what we can do for ourselves. We are instructed to study the word of God not sit idly by and expect God to infuse our minds with His knowledge.

For the cause of Christ
RogerIn 1Corinthians 1:17-21, the comparison is not between the cognitive and the supernatural; the comparison is between knowledge based on speculation and knowledge based in fact. The word of God is foolishness to those who parish because those who parish have a set of false presuppositions on which to base their conclusions about God and the world. The Cross doesn't make sense to them, not because they have a privation of the mental faculties, but because they have a different set of presuppositions and a different worldview. The wisdom of the world isn't irrational and illogical, it fails to come to the truth because it starts in the wrong place and with erroneous premises.

The supernatural activity of God works on the side of the process involved with evidence and facts, which the rational mind will take into account as proof or credence of certain Christian propositions. The mind itself is not broken or faulty, but only needs to have a clear view of the correct facts at hand.

In 1Corinthians 2:13-16, the lack of knowledge or education is not explained in terms of a man's faculties, but in the level of his spirituality, which is described in terms of the Holy Spirit's involvement in the teaching. The Holy Spirit is teaching the spiritual man spiritual things, which the natural man finds foolish, not because the natural man's rationality has failed him, but because his heart is not prepared to accept the information. Paul is dealing with those prone to jealousy and strife, which are deprivations of the will, not matters of knowledge or the ability to know things. Spiritual things can not be taught to those who haven't yet decided to rise above our base instincts.

In Romans, Paul assigns the noetic affects of sin to the will, not the mind. We suppress knowledge about the existence of God from out of our unrighteousness and this stubborn refusal to acknowledge a God we already know leads to the darkness and foolishness of the mind. Remove the immorally induced self-blindness and this will free the mind to come to the right conclusion about things, given the truth.

notuptome
Apr 23rd 2010, 07:00 PM
It would be like following a path, and finding what you're looking for at the end of the path, as long as you do not veer off the path. This particular path leads to redemption. As long as you stay on this path, and not veer off of it, at the end of the path, you are redeemed. How can anybody be redeemed, if they don't continue on, on this path that leads to redemption? The Bible is full of promises. All of these promises are conditional in some manner or another. I'd be willing to bet, that you can't find one promise in the Bible, where there is not also a condition to it. For example. If 10 people were promised 10,000 bucks if they win the race, isn't there a condition that has to be met first? That being, they have to win the race. If you can find any promise in the Bible, where a condition doesn't have to be met first, then you're just not reading deep enough.
Redeemed and saved are not the same thing in your mind? Are you saying that I can be redeemed but if I don't win the race I'm not saved? What is/are the requirement/s for salvation? How are they different from redemption? What conditions must I meet to have eternal life?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 23rd 2010, 07:10 PM
In 1Corinthians 1:17-21, the comparison is not between the cognitive and the supernatural; the comparison is between knowledge based on speculation and knowledge based in fact. The word of God is foolishness to those who parish because those who parish have a set of false presuppositions on which to base their conclusions about God and the world. The Cross doesn't make sense to them, not because they have a privation of the mental faculties, but because they have a different set of presuppositions and a different worldview. The wisdom of the world isn't irrational and illogical, it fails to come to the truth because it starts in the wrong place and with erroneous premises.

The supernatural activity of God works on the side of the process involved with evidence and facts, which the rational mind will take into account as proof or credence of certain Christian propositions. The mind itself is not broken or faulty, but only needs to have a clear view of the correct facts at hand.

In 1Corinthians 2:13-16, the lack of knowledge or education is not explained in terms of a man's faculties, but in the level of his spirituality, which is described in terms of the Holy Spirit's involvement in the teaching. The Holy Spirit is teaching the spiritual man spiritual things, which the natural man finds foolish, not because the natural man's rationality has failed him, but because his heart is not prepared to accept the information. Paul is dealing with those prone to jealousy and strife, which are deprivations of the will, not matters of knowledge or the ability to know things. Spiritual things can not be taught to those who haven't yet decided to rise above our base instincts.

In Romans, Paul assigns the noetic affects of sin to the will, not the mind. We suppress knowledge about the existence of God from out of our unrighteousness and this stubborn refusal to acknowledge a God we already know leads to the darkness and foolishness of the mind. Remove the immorally induced self-blindness and this will free the mind to come to the right conclusion about things, given the truth.
Seems like this is the very thing Christ upbraided the pharisees for doing. Reading the scriptures with no spiritual insight. How is it logical for the Son of God to die in the place of sinful man? How can man reason out the significance of God becoming man to die in mans place to pay the eternal price for mans sin? Gods plan of salvation is an affront to mans wisdom. Without the Holy Spirit man cannot come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Jesus said no man comes to Him except the Father draw him. The drawing is not intellectual but Spiritual.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

divaD
Apr 23rd 2010, 07:50 PM
Redeemed and saved are not the same thing in your mind? Are you saying that I can be redeemed but if I don't win the race I'm not saved? What is/are the requirement/s for salvation? How are they different from redemption? What conditions must I meet to have eternal life?

For the cause of Christ
Roger



Winning the race has nothing to do with it. I only used that as an example, in order to show, that a promise was made, but in order for the promise to be paid in full, a certain condition had to be met first, in this example, the person had to win the race. It would be the same with redemption/salvation. Certain conditions have to be met first, whatever they may be.

What do all the 7 churches in the Revelation have in common?

To him that overcometh/He that overcometh. This is said to each and every church. What one then needs to ask themselves? What does it then mean, if one doesn't overcome? Do they still get the promises promised to them? If they do, then why go to all the trouble of overcoming? If they're still going to get to eat of the tree of life, regardless that they didn't overcome, then why worry with overcoming?


Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

And what about this one? Does it not plainly state, he that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son?

Wouldn't this apply to everyone? Why would some be required to overcome, and others not, but both inherit all things?

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 07:51 PM
One point I'd like to make concerning your statement here... the surprise wasn't because it was an uncommon occurance... it was a surprise because Cornelius and his house were Gentiles and not Jews, yet the Holy Spirit still manifested through them.

Just like He does many times since then through Gentiles. The purpose or timing isn't the only impotance... the importance to make note is this... that this was the beginning of the Holy Spirit manifesting through Gentiles.

It's a fact that not only Jews but also Gentiles... all can receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit separate from the the Holy Spirit coming into them upon their acceptance of Jesus.

Just because each and every occurance isn't recorded in scripture doesn't mean this is a singular event or as you put it... not a promise. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't promised, I agree but is always available as God wills.

The promise IS that all can receive Christ if all they do is accept Him!

Slug1, I'm not going to turn this thead into a baptism debate so I am not responding to your post in that regard. I didn't wnat you to think I was just ignoring this post.

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 08:02 PM
I have to say that I do trust in Gods Goodness and Character.....which is that He is ALL GOOD....Not one single shread of EVIL in Him. When God says trust Me I will be faithful....I believe Him. Nowhere in my mind does He want me to think....that at any moment He could leave me if He chooses to, because He won't, because HE DOES NOT LIE. So in a sense I can see what you're saying.....He could lie, because God is ALL POWERFULL. BUT, if He did Lie, He would cease being God and ALL His goodness would mean Absolutely Nothing!! And He would be no different than Satan. In God there is no darkness. He is Light and Light is Truth. God is perfectly Holy. Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No.


When someone says I do not except Christ and they die....God cannot have that person in His presence for eternity....you can't say GOD chooses not to save that person, THEY/WE have a choice.

God doesn't sway one way or the other, because He simply cannot...it's not in his character AT ALL!!


I have a problem saying God chooses not to lie, but He can if He wanted to.



Simply put, I think there is a huge difference between CANNOT and DOES NOT. If someone were to propose to God that He lie.....I don't believe it's in Gods nature to even ponder or entertain the thought of "hmm, I could lie to them, but I won't." You see what I mean?



In Christ's Love

I see what you mean and I agree, God is all goodness and as such would not entertain the idea of lying. However, if we say it is not possible for Him to lie then we have contradictions in Scripture. Personally I believe that makes God all the greater. I mean how much praise is there in not doing something you can't do? Not much. I mean if Jesus was incapable of doing evil or lying, what praise is there in His perfectly keeping the Law? It is because He was subject to the same passions that we are and He did not give in, that He is so praise worthy. I think the same can be said about God.

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 08:06 PM
Bible interpretation isn't a spiritual matter, it's a cognitive process. The Holy Spirit doesn't do the work for us, we must do the work ourselves. The role of the Holy Spirit is to help the Apostles bring us the truth from Jesus Christ. This is why we have a Bible in the first place, and not get our knowledge supernaturally through a mind meld with the Holy Spirit. The content of our faith comes in the form of propositional truth, which we get from a book that God superintended and inspired, but which engages our minds and hearts through the natural processes of our mind and mental faculties. For this reason, Bible interpretation utilizes human methods and techniques of reading for understanding, which take both instruction and practice.

Can I amen that?

ClayInHisHands
Apr 23rd 2010, 08:11 PM
I see what you mean and I agree, God is all goodness and as such would not entertain the idea of lying. However, if we say it is not possible for Him to lie then we have contradictions in Scripture. Personally I believe that makes God all the greater. I mean how much praise is there in not doing something you can't do? Not much. I mean if Jesus was incapable of doing evil or lying, what praise is there in His perfectly keeping the Law? It is because He was subject to the same passions that we are and He did not give in, that He is so praise worthy. I think the same can be said about God
.

I agree with you. Except the red part....I'm not trying to argue...I'm just having a discussion. Wouldn't it be different with Jesus because He was Fully God and Fully Man....as to where God is just Fully God? I agree Jesus was capable of doing and feeling every last thing that we can, but for example God the Father doesn't know the feeling of going hungry....so to speak. I liken it to the Godhead, I don't klnow where you stand, but God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one but separate. God the Father didn't physically suffer and physically die on the cross...Jesus the Son of God did.

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 08:46 PM
I agree with you. Except the red part....I'm not trying to argue...I'm just having a discussion. Wouldn't it be different with Jesus because He was Fully God and Fully Man....as to where God is just Fully God? I agree Jesus was capable of doing and feeling every last thing that we can, but for example God the Father doesn't know the feeling of going hungry....so to speak. I liken it to the Godhead, I don't know where you stand, but God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one but separate. God the Father didn't physically suffer and physically die on the cross...Jesus the Son of God did.

OK, but how can man be made in God's image if God is incapable of Lying? My other question would be is Jesus greater that the Father? It would seem to me that if Jesus was able to do what the father was unable to do, it would make Him Greater than the Father. But, we know Jesus Himself said "the Father is greater than I."

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 08:49 PM
notuptome---One is not saved because he is redeemed?? What is that intended to mean?



The Greek words translated redeemed mean to "Buy back" in one sense or another. Christ did that for every man. Hebrews say that Christ tasted death for every man, so every man was "Bought back" redeemed, from the power of darkness. That however, does not mean that every man is saved or will be saved. Only those who place their faith in what God has done through Christ will be saved.




That God does not impute the wages of sin to the innocent infant does not open the concept of multiple paths to salvation.



I didn't say there were multiple path to salvation, there is only one path God. However, He can save however He chooses to, He is not limited to what humans may think they see in the Scriptures. He has given us a promise, the one who believes shall be saved. That however, does not limit God to only saving those who believe, He can save anyone He wants to.




I wish you had the same zeal for proclaiming the gospel that you have for baptismal regeneration. We've been over these scriptures many times and you have deeply impressed the meaning of your choice upon your thinking.



2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.



Well, Roger, as I said in my previous post, you simply looked right past the evidence before you. What I placed before you was a logical explanation of the facts in such a way as to not contradict the Scriptures. But, as I noted, you preferred your preconceived ideas to the logical interpretation of the text. This seems to be common among Christians, at least in my experience.



You mention my zeal for preaching the Gospel, well, I am here just about every single day, is that not zeal?




Was your intent in this thread to discuss biblical interpretation or baptismal regeneration?



You see Roger, you continue to prove my points about Biblical Interpretation. This is why we must follow rules. You asked if it was my intention to make this thread about Baptismal regeneration. I made a statement to kay-gee in response to his post. We were not debating the issue, I simply used and example that he had brought up to make my point. However, You are the one who brought it into the conversation between us not me. Then you ask me if it was my intention for the thread. You have created a straw man argument. You brought the issue of Baptism into our discussion and then act like it was my intention, that my friend is a logical fallacy.

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 08:54 PM
In 1Corinthians 1:17-21, the comparison is not between the cognitive and the supernatural; the comparison is between knowledge based on speculation and knowledge based in fact. The word of God is foolishness to those who parish because those who parish have a set of false presuppositions on which to base their conclusions about God and the world. The Cross doesn't make sense to them, not because they have a privation of the mental faculties, but because they have a different set of presuppositions and a different worldview. The wisdom of the world isn't irrational and illogical, it fails to come to the truth because it starts in the wrong place and with erroneous premises.

The supernatural activity of God works on the side of the process involved with evidence and facts, which the rational mind will take into account as proof or credence of certain Christian propositions. The mind itself is not broken or faulty, but only needs to have a clear view of the correct facts at hand.

In 1Corinthians 2:13-16, the lack of knowledge or education is not explained in terms of a man's faculties, but in the level of his spirituality, which is described in terms of the Holy Spirit's involvement in the teaching. The Holy Spirit is teaching the spiritual man spiritual things, which the natural man finds foolish, not because the natural man's rationality has failed him, but because his heart is not prepared to accept the information. Paul is dealing with those prone to jealousy and strife, which are deprivations of the will, not matters of knowledge or the ability to know things. Spiritual things can not be taught to those who haven't yet decided to rise above our base instincts.

In Romans, Paul assigns the noetic affects of sin to the will, not the mind. We suppress knowledge about the existence of God from out of our unrighteousness and this stubborn refusal to acknowledge a God we already know leads to the darkness and foolishness of the mind. Remove the immorally induced self-blindness and this will free the mind to come to the right conclusion about things, given the truth.

Can I get a second amen?

ClayInHisHands
Apr 23rd 2010, 09:04 PM
OK, but how can man be made in God's image if God is incapable of Lying? My other question would be is Jesus greater that the Father? It would seem to me that if Jesus was able to do what the father was unable to do, it would make Him Greater than the Father. But, we know Jesus Himself said "the Father is greater than I."

Yeah, I see your point. The important thing above all else....you and I both know 100% that He never will lie...He his faithful till the very end. Amen.

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2010, 09:39 PM
Yeah, I see your point. The important thing above all else....you and I both know 100% that He never will lie...He his faithful till the very end. Amen.

I agree, I have absolutely no doubt that God will never lie. It is so against His nature and who He is.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2010, 09:48 PM
Seems like this is the very thing Christ upbraided the pharisees for doing. Reading the scriptures with no spiritual insight. With regard to Jesus' word to the Pharisees I think you need to give some examples for us to examine. The question is whether the Pharisees were unable to understand the scriptures due to some kind of mental deficiency or whether they purposely twisted the scriptures to suit their pleasures.


How is it logical for the Son of God to die in the place of sinful man? With regard to the logic of the death of the son of God, the logic of these things is evaluated from within the narrative of the story God is telling through history. Once we have been told the meaning and the significance behind the cross, it makes logical sense within that narrative.


How can man reason out the significance of God becoming man to die in mans place to pay the eternal price for mans sin?Without direct revelation, no one can know the significance of the incarnation or the cross. This must be taught by those to whom God revealed it. But the process of direct revelation still falls within the normal bounds of human mental faculties.


Gods plan of salvation is an affront to mans wisdom. Without the Holy Spirit man cannot come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Jesus said no man comes to Him except the Father draw him. The drawing is not intellectual but Spiritual.
Yes, but the acquisition of the knowledge isn't a supernatural event. The "drawing", if you will, appeals to the heart not the mind. As Paul says in Romans, human beings have the capacity to stubbornly suppress what they already know to be true, and live as if they don't know it. In order to draw a man to Christ, God must first heal the man's self-inflicted wound to his psyche, which amounts to a volitional act of self-deception.

notuptome
Apr 23rd 2010, 10:33 PM
Winning the race has nothing to do with it. I only used that as an example, in order to show, that a promise was made, but in order for the promise to be paid in full, a certain condition had to be met first, in this example, the person had to win the race. It would be the same with redemption/salvation. Certain conditions have to be met first, whatever they may be.

What do all the 7 churches in the Revelation have in common?

To him that overcometh/He that overcometh. This is said to each and every church. What one then needs to ask themselves? What does it then mean, if one doesn't overcome? Do they still get the promises promised to them? If they do, then why go to all the trouble of overcoming? If they're still going to get to eat of the tree of life, regardless that they didn't overcome, then why worry with overcoming?


Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

And what about this one? Does it not plainly state, he that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son?

Wouldn't this apply to everyone? Why would some be required to overcome, and others not, but both inherit all things?
Then what was John talking about in 1 John 2:13-14? We have overcome.

The only condition Jesus ever established was to believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

divaD
Apr 24th 2010, 12:14 AM
Then what was John talking about in 1 John 2:13-14? We have overcome.

The only condition Jesus ever established was to believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger



There's the surrounding context to consider. It would be way too much for me to try and explain in writing tho. One needs to read all of 1 John to pick up on the overall context. You have to put 2 and 2 together. If they overcame the wicked one, which I believe they did, and if that means that the wicked one can never overcome them again, then why is the author wasting all his time writing about loving not the world, and verse 24 for instance?

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Notice the if in that verse. Aren't these the same ones the author told that they have overcome the wicked one? If they have overcome the wicked one, and there's nothing else to be concerned with, then why waste time teaching them all these other things? I sort of look at like, you've overcome the wicked one, so don't let these other things take that fact away from you, don't end up back to where you started from...continue on from where you are now, and continue on on this same path, etc..


2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


What about this passage? Did not they overcome, but then became again overcome? Could not the same thing also happen to those in 1 John 2, if they did the opposite of what the author was teaching them, in regards to not loving the world, etc? Wouldn't they be right back where they started from, even tho they overcame the wicked one?

kay-gee
Apr 24th 2010, 12:29 AM
Bible interpretation isn't a spiritual matter, it's a cognitive process. The Holy Spirit doesn't do the work for us, we must do the work ourselves. The role of the Holy Spirit is to help the Apostles bring us the truth from Jesus Christ. This is why we have a Bible in the first place, and not get our knowledge supernaturally through a mind meld with the Holy Spirit. The content of our faith comes in the form of propositional truth, which we get from a book that God superintended and inspired, but which engages our minds and hearts through the natural processes of our mind and mental faculties. For this reason, Bible interpretation utilizes human methods and techniques of reading for understanding, which take both instruction and practice.

We have to stop being in agreement like this. People will think somethings up.

LOL

all the best...

notuptome
Apr 24th 2010, 02:17 PM
There's the surrounding context to consider. It would be way too much for me to try and explain in writing tho. One needs to read all of 1 John to pick up on the overall context. You have to put 2 and 2 together. If they overcame the wicked one, which I believe they did, and if that means that the wicked one can never overcome them again, then why is the author wasting all his time writing about loving not the world, and verse 24 for instance?

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Notice the if in that verse. Aren't these the same ones the author told that they have overcome the wicked one? If they have overcome the wicked one, and there's nothing else to be concerned with, then why waste time teaching them all these other things? I sort of look at like, you've overcome the wicked one, so don't let these other things take that fact away from you, don't end up back to where you started from...continue on from where you are now, and continue on on this same path, etc..


2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


What about this passage? Did not they overcome, but then became again overcome? Could not the same thing also happen to those in 1 John 2, if they did the opposite of what the author was teaching them, in regards to not loving the world, etc? Wouldn't they be right back where they started from, even tho they overcame the wicked one?
The theme of 1 John is fellowship. Fellowship with the Lord. Once we have overcome our adversary seeks to render us powerless by causing us to stumble in our walk with the Lord. If we consider the parable of the sower we see seed that fell on stony ground and seed that was choked by the thorns. As Jesus explains to His disciples these are ones that when tribulation or testing comes they are offended or they distraced by the things of this world. Mat 13:1-23

How is their end worse? These have received the Lord and have eternal life but the Lord has so much more for them. So many blesings now and through eternity if only they endure hardness for His names sake. These are saved but they do not have great rewards in heaven. These are often best thought of as the street sweepers in the kingdom. They are doubtless far better off than those who perish but by comparison they have missed out on the best that Christ had intended for them. 1 Cor 2:9 speaks of things that we cannot know until we are with Christ in glory.

We have all seen or know of brethren that have returned to their 'old life'. Those who enjoy living like they did before they professed Christ are likely false professors. There are those who go back but are never happy and these are the most pitable of all. Not rejoicing in the Lord and not satisfied with the pleasures of sin for a season.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 25th 2010, 11:57 AM
Slug1, I'm not going to turn this thead into a baptism debate so I am not responding to your post in that regard. I didn't wnat you to think I was just ignoring this post.Understandable dude... just keep in mind that this event was surprising not for the reasons that you stated. It was the first... thus the beginning, not an anomaly.

Butch5
Apr 25th 2010, 07:15 PM
Understandable dude... just keep in mind that this event was surprising not for the reasons that you stated. It was the first... thus the beginning, not an anomaly.

Yes it was stated that the Jews were astonished because the Spirit had fallen on the Gentiles, however, I think there is something more in the fact that Peter immediately calls for water after the Spirit falls. It seem to me that Peter was not expecting this.

Slug1
Apr 25th 2010, 08:23 PM
Yes it was stated that the Jews were astonished because the Spirit had fallen on the Gentiles, however, I think there is something more in the fact that Peter immediately calls for water after the Spirit falls. It seem to me that Peter was not expecting this.He wasn't expecting the Holy Spirit to manifest in any Gentile. Cornelius and his house was the first to prove this to Peter, nor has Cornelius and his house been the last Gentiles either to receive the Holy Spirit in power. Which is why Peter did't resist baptising Gentiles in water any more. That moment was just the beginning, it's gotta start somewhere, with someone, at sometime...