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moonglow
Apr 25th 2010, 06:13 PM
Mine is growing by leaps and bounds. Scripture IS taught weekly and in bible studies too. More and more are coming to Christ. :pp

I ask this because so many on here are convicted all churches (except their own) are bad, false, falling away, into false teaching, etc, etc and frankly I would like to know how they know this. I certainly can't travel around the country and visit every single to church and judge whether they are on the right track or not. I think some get this idea from what they see on TV, which is a very small fraction out there. I also think they believe the church is failing using scriptures to show its true. While these things will happen (depending on your end times view that is..some of us see that as have happened in the past actually..lol) ..they have no way of knowing truly, if its happening now. I just don't see how its possible to know if its happening or not actually.

Another odd thing is if you tell them your church is growing 'some' are convicted it must be growing because its 'tickling ears..demon doctrines are being taught'...people can't possibly like a church for the plain Gospel message itself being taught..something else..sinister and evil must be be going on to draw these people in! Not in this day and age...:rolleyes:

I think these people are convinced the 'great falling away' is happening and are so sure of this, they refuse to believe there are any good healthy, bible only churches out there growing. Which is truly sad actually, so they constantly post church bashing posts..as if that is going to help..:cool:

First if they thought that the great falling away was happening...does the bible say to try to change this by bashing the church to get them to straighten up? No it does not. If they think churches are weak or sick ..why not encourage them rather then bash them all the time? I mean seriously...you don't beat up a sick person in the hospital telling them to quit it can 'just get better' already do you?

I find it strange that people will post convicted some prophecies in the bible is happening, then do everything in their power to try to stop it...:hmm:

So lets find out how many on here think they are in a bad church for whatever reason...tell me is your church dying or growing or remaining stable?

Thanks.

God bless

markedward
Apr 25th 2010, 06:51 PM
My first church is growing so big they have to build a new church building this year. The pastor is not a "feel good" pastor, he is not a "fire and brimstone" pastor... he just preaches Scripture, and he encourages everyone to get involved with the church, and in aiding the community. My second church, which is only a few years old, is also growing quite rapidly. Just in the last year they had to buy a new building because their congregation about doubled in size. Same deal with the pastor here; Bible-preaching, Body-edifying, community-serving. While I can't see into people's hearts, at least on the outside, neither of my churches is dead, or asleep, or obsessed with material wealth.

This is why I can't stand it when people jump on here and making sweeping blanket-statements that the whole of the church is dying and wicked and corrupt. Uh... no?

daughter
Apr 25th 2010, 06:54 PM
My church is a little village church, and is gradually shrinking as the young people leave the village, and the older people die off. I would say it's treading water.

ClayInHisHands
Apr 25th 2010, 07:06 PM
Moonglow, what denomination of church do you go to....or a better question would be, does your actual church have the same endtime belief(partial preterist) as you do? The reason I ask is because I don't know what churches or denominations preach that view. Most of the time when they talk about the last days they talk alot about premil stuff.

I'm not looking to attack you for answering, I'm really interested in knowing what denominations believe this.


Thanks


In Christ's Love

Beckrl
Apr 25th 2010, 07:13 PM
To be honest I haven't been to my church in sometime, that's because of work. But when I was going it was just remaining in the point of just being there. My local church is I guess one would call an small church. As for as the teaching I feel they stand for the truth in many areas but in my opinion have more to grow in knowledge and understanding. As for the "falling away" I think it was in Paul's day as the spirit of anti-christ, which we still have today. I thank God for your churches leaps and bounds.

HisLeast
Apr 25th 2010, 07:54 PM
The church I used to attend is no longer accessible, and the surrounding churches are either weak, steadfast against inquiry, or both. I'm quite happily taking a much needed rest from it all.

moonglow
Apr 25th 2010, 11:03 PM
Moonglow, what denomination of church do you go to....or a better question would be, does your actual church have the same endtime belief(partial preterist) as you do? The reason I ask is because I don't know what churches or denominations preach that view. Most of the time when they talk about the last days they talk alot about premil stuff.

I'm not looking to attack you for answering, I'm really interested in knowing what denominations believe this.


Thanks


In Christ's Love

Actually I have no idea what their end time beliefs are..its a Southern Baptist church. We have only been there a year..the pastor is more focused on the here and now it seems and hasn't addressed the end times once since we have been there. Our last church was pre-trib rapture...which I wasn't but I think it would be difficult to find a church with my end time views. I don't go for that reason..its not the biggest thing on my do to list...lol. I go to grown in Christ daily. :)

God bless

ClayInHisHands
Apr 26th 2010, 12:14 AM
Actually I have no idea what their end time beliefs are..its a Southern Baptist church. We have only been there a year..the pastor is more focused on the here and now it seems and hasn't addressed the end times once since we have been there. Our last church was pre-trib rapture...which I wasn't but I think it would be difficult to find a church with my end time views. I don't go for that reason..its not the biggest thing on my do to list...lol. I go to grown in Christ daily. :)

God bless

Thanks for being honest. My wife and tried a small Baptist church recently and the message was scriptural ( it primarily dealt with missions and more on our obligation as Christians to tell others about Jesus Christ. Then they said the next week they were going to be talking about America in Bible Prophecy. We didn't return and my word is my word...it wasn't due to the Bible prophecy message coming, it just wasn't where we felt the Lord was leading us based on our visit and prayer. We only went because some neighbors said that was the church they went to. So I said, let's try it, Baptist doctrine as I've known my whole life is On Point.


In Christ's Love

moonglow
Apr 26th 2010, 03:13 AM
My church is a little village church, and is gradually shrinking as the young people leave the village, and the older people die off. I would say it's treading water.

Now I had heard from you and others that live in the UK that the Christian churches there are dying...:( Very sad indeed.


Beckrl:To be honest I haven't been to my church in sometime, that's because of work. But when I was going it was just remaining in the point of just being there. My local church is I guess one would call an small church. As for as the teaching I feel they stand for the truth in many areas but in my opinion have more to grow in knowledge and understanding. As for the "falling away" I think it was in Paul's day as the spirit of anti-christ, which we still have today. I thank God for your churches leaps and bounds.

Thank you. Not only is it growing here in town but they have planted four or five other churches in surrounding towns. :pp


ClayInHisHands


Thanks for being honest. My wife and tried a small Baptist church recently and the message was scriptural ( it primarily dealt with missions and more on our obligation as Christians to tell others about Jesus Christ. Then they said the next week they were going to be talking about America in Bible Prophecy. We didn't return and my word is my word...it wasn't due to the Bible prophecy message coming, it just wasn't where we felt the Lord was leading us based on our visit and prayer. We only went because some neighbors said that was the church they went to. So I said, let's try it, Baptist doctrine as I've known my whole life is On Point.


In Christ's Love

Sometimes I think churches do alot of end time studies to draw people in..I really do. I am pretty sure whatever their end times views are at my church, they won't be the same as mine and that is ok...I am used to it. End time beliefs aren't that important to me in a church..unless of course they harp on it alot and keep the fear factor going...that I find distrubing. I want a church I can not only learn from and grow in my faith but to also serve in too which I do at this church where as at other churches serving has been difficult. Plus they have a strong youth ministry which my son really needed. Now he reads and studies the bible on his own...:pp In the past any bible studying I did and would read passages to him...now he looks up stuff on his own too using the internet to en chance his studies more. So its been a real blessing for us.

I know no church is going to be perfect..I just wanted and idea how the church or churches around people were really doing since we hear such negative things about the USA churches all the time.

God bless

teddyv
Apr 26th 2010, 04:32 PM
I would not say our church is growing significantly in numbers although there is some modest growth. But as a church community I don't know if I've seen the majority of congregants really on the same page and it has really been a blessing to serve in this church. We are really blessed with the pastors here (we have three for a church of only about 300 people) with excellent Bible-based preaching and teaching. The youth have really been well engaged and are very serious in their growth as Christians - more so than I have ever seen or experienced when I was at that age. Our church is a Reformed denomination populated principally by Dutch immigrants, but is situated in a neighbourhood that has become very multicultural since the time the church was founded about 55 years ago. We are going through a series of programs and initiatives to identify our role within the immediate neighbourhood to be a church that better reflects it's location and coupled with lots of prayer. A couple of opportunities came out of nowhere with no active involvement in our church. We are also blessed with a very high rate of volunteerism for the various ministries so it's not just a few who are carrying the load.

moonglow
Apr 26th 2010, 04:35 PM
I would not say our church is growing significantly in numbers although there is some modest growth. But as a church community I don't know if I've seen the majority of congregants really on the same page and it has really been a blessing to serve in this church. We are really blessed with the pastors here (we have three for a church of only about 300 people) with excellent Bible-based preaching and teaching. The youth have really been well engaged and are very serious in their growth as Christians - more so than I have ever seen or experienced when I was at that age. Our church is a Reformed denomination populated principally by Dutch immigrants, but is situated in a neighbourhood that has become very multicultural since the time the church was founded about 55 years ago. We are going through a series of programs and initiatives to identify our role within the immediate neighbourhood to be a church that better reflects it's location and coupled with lots of prayer. A couple of opportunities came out of nowhere with no active involvement in our church. We are also blessed with a very high rate of volunteerism for the various ministries so it's not just a few who are carrying the load.

That is great...always good to hear about the youth too. Maybe they aren't as 'lost' as so many think either..

God bless

teddyv
Apr 26th 2010, 04:43 PM
That is great...always good to hear about the youth too. Maybe they aren't as 'lost' as so many think either..

God bless

My wife noticed when she was teaching that a lot of the kids are very upfront about their Christian beliefs in everyday circumstances (she taught in a Christian school). My wife and I always remember being quiet and not really grabbing a hold of it at that age (and this seems consistent with my friends experience at the age). Although sometimes there is a certain naivite to these kids, they are not afraid of sharing what they believe. I'm talking the grade 8-12 age in this regard.

One of our pastors is absolutely passionate about the challenges in raising children today and has started a class for all the younger families to learn and share on all things related to raising children and the various influences that we have to contend with these days. He and his wife certainly bucked trends in raising their kids and has lots of interesting ideas on parenting - not that we follow them exactly but there is plenty of food for thought.

moonglow
Apr 26th 2010, 06:50 PM
My wife noticed when she was teaching that a lot of the kids are very upfront about their Christian beliefs in everyday circumstances (she taught in a Christian school). My wife and I always remember being quiet and not really grabbing a hold of it at that age (and this seems consistent with my friends experience at the age). Although sometimes there is a certain naivite to these kids, they are not afraid of sharing what they believe. I'm talking the grade 8-12 age in this regard.

One of our pastors is absolutely passionate about the challenges in raising children today and has started a class for all the younger families to learn and share on all things related to raising children and the various influences that we have to contend with these days. He and his wife certainly bucked trends in raising their kids and has lots of interesting ideas on parenting - not that we follow them exactly but there is plenty of food for thought.

We have a couple in our church's small group..she was raised in another country and her ideas and approach are vastly different then you find with most American Christians..though her husband is American. She always amazes me on how they are raising their kids in their Christian faith....its amazing and yea, gives me alot of food for thought too. Just a different approach that I think we could all learn from actually...a different way of viewing everything..very wonderful I think!

I think kids are going to be more outspoken in a Christian school don't you think? I mean if they can't be outspoken their about their faith, where can they be? (well other then church). But I know what you mean..they are more fearless in expressing their faith when they haven't had to deal with the discrimination (yet) because of it.

God bless

teddyv
Apr 26th 2010, 07:09 PM
I think kids are going to be more outspoken in a Christian school don't you think? I mean if they can't be outspoken their about their faith, where can they be? (well other then church). But I know what you mean..they are more fearless in expressing their faith when they haven't had to deal with the discrimination (yet) because of it.

God blessI don't know. Both my wife and I and many of our friends of the same age range all went to Christian schools and we just did not have the same type of openness of our faith. Maybe it's a reflection on some changes in our culture in the last 20 odd years or so.

CaptainM
Apr 26th 2010, 08:56 PM
My church is growing, but I would not say by leaps and bounds numerically. Our church is growing spiritually. Within the last year our church has increased dramatically in the realm of evangelism, which can be helpful, but not the ends. We're still lacking some in discipleship but there are a few who are taking this challenge on to increase spiritual life diciplines in believers who are not stagnant in their walk. What I can say is that the Holy Spirit is definately moving through our local church. I'm seeing members become active who have sat in the same pew for 20+ years. I'm seeing an increased desire for evangelism. Our Wednesday night Bible studies have increased to triple our average size. Our prayer meetings are more than a medical convention where we spend 30 minutes talking about sickness and death and then the pastor leading in prayer; but actually consist of several men and women praying openly for lost souls, unchurched community members, the needs in the community, and how we (the Church) can begin to re-shape a secularized culture. Sunday school attendance has increased too! My young adults class, which used to consist of about 6 people, runs anywhwere from 12-18 on any given Sunday. And the pastor preaches from the Word, by the Word, and with the Word. He doesn't hold his punches and preaches with power from what I can only give credit to God through the Holy Spirit. And our altar, which was once barren and lonesome, is filled with kneeling and head-bowed bodies at the end of most every service.

crawfish
Apr 26th 2010, 10:31 PM
My church is growing, both in numbers and in boldness. They finally got out of a debt that had been burdening them for decades about 10 years ago, and since then, have refused to spend any money that they don't have. They are planting churches, involved deeply in mission work overseas, committed to aiding the community around them (and not fleeing to the suburbs like so many other white Evangelical churches), and are even supporting an effort to build a Christian university in Africa. Our minister constantly challenges us to grow personally and as a congregation. Max Lucado said "God loves who you are, but He wants you to be far better than that". I feel blessed to be a part of what God is doing here.

crawfish
Apr 26th 2010, 10:35 PM
I think kids are going to be more outspoken in a Christian school don't you think? I mean if they can't be outspoken their about their faith, where can they be? (well other then church). But I know what you mean..they are more fearless in expressing their faith when they haven't had to deal with the discrimination (yet) because of it.

God bless

I have experienced exactly the opposite. At a Christian school you get daily prayer, bible classes and your teachers are able to talk about God in class, but it's easy to simply be quiet about God because you see everybody else around you is exactly the same as you. My kids attend a public charter school and have (nearly) daily discussions with outspoken atheists, muslims, hindus and others, and are always challenged to speak out for what they believe in. It is challenging as a parent, in that you must stay engaged with what they're hearing and experiencing, but I believe that in the end it will make them much stronger Christians as adults.

Scubadude
Apr 27th 2010, 03:52 AM
I would say my Church is growing. I made another friend this week, who's wife (who goes to mom's church) was convinced he was not a believer because he didn't attend church with her. I was helping him install a new front door. As we talked, it became clear he loved the Lord deeply and has a heart to help those who can't care for themselves. He is a believer.

I had to wonder why his wife would report such things to her congregation about her man. It had something to do with the fact he was loving his wife well by not allowing her to manipulate him, and it made her mad. He didn't run, he spoke to her about not being willing to be pressured into anything, that he didn't need another man or Christian government to tell him how to live.

His service was more by way of gifts of prophesy, he spoke up in church (when he did go), and his voice was squelched as his thoughts and questions created tension, brought attention to where repentance is needed in order to enjoy the hope and freedom that is in Christ. He was made to feel there was no place for what he had to offer.

Churches have always tended to kill their prophets, or send them into exile. From my experience, the men who are choosing to no longer attend church have a similar prophetic spirit, wanting to encourage the Church by drawing attention to sins that need to be repented of. Repentance is the path to Christ, but you can't force that message on anyone. The people who are moving out of the church are all going somewhere...... the community, to create something new. It is my conviction the Spirit is behind this.

I am also one of the people who have left the church (small c) and not abandoned his faith. I think manipulation, gossip and slander are the underbelly of contention in the church, pushing people out from the wounds and pain it creates. The more it grows unchecked, the more it becomes a better idea to live in the corner of the attic, eating old bread, alone, and dreaming of moving to the desert....... to find peace. Maybe even the freedom to serve as you have been gifted.

Scubadude
Apr 27th 2010, 09:23 PM
It doesn't have to be an either, or kind of thing. Just as the wind has many different curents in it, there are many different things the Lord is doing at the same time with his body, the Church. Some of it is through the institutional church, some of it through believers in home fellowships, and some of it is totally unknown to human understanding. The up side to the complaints is that at least you know the complainer still cares enough to say something. It's when people get silent I start to be concerned.

parsonsmom
Apr 28th 2010, 10:50 AM
We perish because of lack of knowledge, because we fail to read the instructions. respectfully Parsonsmom

Frecs
Apr 28th 2010, 11:43 AM
Mine is growing by leaps and bounds. Scripture IS taught weekly and in bible studies too. More and more are coming to Christ. :pp

My church is growing and the Holy Spirit is moving in the hearts and lives of the people. We are most definitely NOT a "seeker-sensitive" church. :D


I ask this because so many on here are convicted all churches (except their own) are bad, false, falling away, into false teaching, etc, etc and frankly I would like to know how they know this. ....Another odd thing is if you tell them your church is growing 'some' are convicted it must be growing because its 'tickling ears..demon doctrines are being taught'...people can't possibly like a church for the plain Gospel message itself being taught..something else..sinister and evil must be be going on to draw these people in! Not in this day and age...:rolleyes:


I have yet to see anyone make a blanket statement condemning all churches except their own as apostate. For all the disagreements I've seen here, that is just not something I've seen stated....but perhaps I've not read the particular thread you speak of???

Anyway, it is true that there is a growing number of churches...and they are growing in size of congregations...where the Gospel is being exchanged for "seeker-sensitive, feel-good, social gospel". Whether that description describes your church only you and God know because I haven't been there. I know that in the past few years we've had groups of people leave our church because they saught after just such a church -- one where their toes won't get stepped on. OR, they chose to follow after the latest greatest Healer/Prophet/Evangelist. Or, well, anything BUT sound doctrine. It is sad but true that many American Christians are soft and want an easy comfortable don't-ask-too-much-of-me walk.


And, I could name at least one church in my community that fits the bill of "seeker sensitive don't step on toes but make them feel good" church. They grow by pulling people from our church and others around the community rather than evangelizing the lost. :cry:

moonglow
Apr 28th 2010, 02:49 PM
My church is growing, but I would not say by leaps and bounds numerically. Our church is growing spiritually. Within the last year our church has increased dramatically in the realm of evangelism, which can be helpful, but not the ends. We're still lacking some in discipleship but there are a few who are taking this challenge on to increase spiritual life diciplines in believers who are not stagnant in their walk. What I can say is that the Holy Spirit is definately moving through our local church. I'm seeing members become active who have sat in the same pew for 20+ years. I'm seeing an increased desire for evangelism. Our Wednesday night Bible studies have increased to triple our average size. Our prayer meetings are more than a medical convention where we spend 30 minutes talking about sickness and death and then the pastor leading in prayer; but actually consist of several men and women praying openly for lost souls, unchurched community members, the needs in the community, and how we (the Church) can begin to re-shape a secularized culture. Sunday school attendance has increased too! My young adults class, which used to consist of about 6 people, runs anywhwere from 12-18 on any given Sunday. And the pastor preaches from the Word, by the Word, and with the Word. He doesn't hold his punches and preaches with power from what I can only give credit to God through the Holy Spirit. And our altar, which was once barren and lonesome, is filled with kneeling and head-bowed bodies at the end of most every service.

That is great news. :) Sometimes it need to just grow the people there already. I used to belong to a church where the pastor was so intent on outreach that the members were neglected in their spiritual growth. What he was doing was scriptural...seeking the lost, but few were going to stay there because the members had some serious problems that needed to be dealt with first! Without that stable spiritual environment a lost person coming in wasn't probably going to get what they needed to come to Christ but only leave discouraged.


Scubadude

I would say my Church is growing. I made another friend this week, who's wife (who goes to mom's church) was convinced he was not a believer because he didn't attend church with her. I was helping him install a new front door. As we talked, it became clear he loved the Lord deeply and has a heart to help those who can't care for themselves. He is a believer.

I had to wonder why his wife would report such things to her congregation about her man. It had something to do with the fact he was loving his wife well by not allowing her to manipulate him, and it made her mad. He didn't run, he spoke to her about not being willing to be pressured into anything, that he didn't need another man or Christian government to tell him how to live.

His service was more by way of gifts of prophesy, he spoke up in church (when he did go), and his voice was squelched as his thoughts and questions created tension, brought attention to where repentance is needed in order to enjoy the hope and freedom that is in Christ. He was made to feel there was no place for what he had to offer.

Churches have always tended to kill their prophets, or send them into exile. From my experience, the men who are choosing to no longer attend church have a similar prophetic spirit, wanting to encourage the Church by drawing attention to sins that need to be repented of. Repentance is the path to Christ, but you can't force that message on anyone. The people who are moving out of the church are all going somewhere...... the community, to create something new. It is my conviction the Spirit is behind this.

I am also one of the people who have left the church (small c) and not abandoned his faith. I think manipulation, gossip and slander are the underbelly of contention in the church, pushing people out from the wounds and pain it creates. The more it grows unchecked, the more it becomes a better idea to live in the corner of the attic, eating old bread, alone, and dreaming of moving to the desert....... to find peace. Maybe even the freedom to serve as you have been gifted.

You kind of lost me on what you were talking about in regards to this husband..what did his wife report to the church about him? :confused


Frecs

[QUOTE]Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
Mine is growing by leaps and bounds. Scripture IS taught weekly and in bible studies too. More and more are coming to Christ.

My church is growing and the Holy Spirit is moving in the hearts and lives of the people. We are most definitely NOT a "seeker-sensitive" church.


I ask this because so many on here are convicted all churches (except their own) are bad, false, falling away, into false teaching, etc, etc and frankly I would like to know how they know this. ....Another odd thing is if you tell them your church is growing 'some' are convicted it must be growing because its 'tickling ears..demon doctrines are being taught'...people can't possibly like a church for the plain Gospel message itself being taught..something else..sinister and evil must be be going on to draw these people in! Not in this day and age...

I have yet to see anyone make a blanket statement condemning all churches except their own as apostate. For all the disagreements I've seen here, that is just not something I've seen stated....but perhaps I've not read the particular thread you speak of???

Anyway, it is true that there is a growing number of churches...and they are growing in size of congregations...where the Gospel is being exchanged for "seeker-sensitive, feel-good, social gospel". Whether that description describes your church only you and God know because I haven't been there. I know that in the past few years we've had groups of people leave our church because they saught after just such a church -- one where their toes won't get stepped on. OR, they chose to follow after the latest greatest Healer/Prophet/Evangelist. Or, well, anything BUT sound doctrine. It is sad but true that many American Christians are soft and want an easy comfortable don't-ask-too-much-of-me walk.


And, I could name at least one church in my community that fits the bill of "seeker sensitive don't step on toes but make them feel good" church. They grow by pulling people from our church and others around the community rather than evangelizing the lost.



That is great about your church..I am happy to hear it. :)

You are fairly new..just joined in February right? So you probably haven't seen the type of posts I am talking about yet but yes people are constantly bashing the America churches and believers on here..and sometimes they include their own churches or don't attend church at all. Sometimes it gets really, really bad on here and only serves to discourage people rather then lift them up and possibly help them get back on track IF they have gotten off track that is. There is a recent one on here and I decided instead of replying to it, to just see how many on here are seeing church growth in their own churches or churches dying in their area. Like I said, I don't know how these people can possibly know a vast majority are falling away when its physical impossible to go around and check all these churches themselves. They hear rumors and I think and base their ideas on that. :rolleyes: Or like I said, assume if any church is growing they must be doing false teachings. Very sad to look for the worse in their brethren rather then the good.

God bless

Frecs
Apr 28th 2010, 03:33 PM
That is great about your church..I am happy to hear it. :)

You are fairly new..just joined in February right? So you probably haven't seen the type of posts I am talking about yet but yes people are constantly bashing the America churches and believers on here..and sometimes they include their own churches or don't attend church at all. Sometimes it gets really, really bad on here and only serves to discourage people rather then lift them up and possibly help them get back on track IF they have gotten off track that is. There is a recent one on here and I decided instead of replying to it, to just see how many on here are seeing church growth in their own churches or churches dying in their area. Like I said, I don't know how these people can possibly know a vast majority are falling away when its physical impossible to go around and check all these churches themselves. They hear rumors and I think and base their ideas on that. :rolleyes: Or like I said, assume if any church is growing they must be doing false teachings. Very sad to look for the worse in their brethren rather then the good.

God bless

I am fairly new to the forum. It is unfortunate that people can get so sideways with their attitudes that then spread that discontent to others. No matter what is happening around us, we need to be salt and light not only to the world but to each other. I'd rather be an encourager than a discourager, know what I mean? I can't speak to where others get their information but I can say that I have pastor friends around the country and a few in other countries. From the American pastors I hear discussion of how "seeker-sensitive" or "feel-good" churches pull members from other churches -- theirs and others. So, I know it is happening (and the fact that it has happened here in my community and so I've seen it first hand). To what extent I couldn't tell you. Perhaps George Barna has done a survey? What I also see--even more than whole churches--is that individuals would rather follow after "feel good" theology rather than be challenged to grow in their faith. It does feel as if this is happening more and more. And, yes, I see it as a sign of the end drawing closer -- which means we really need to hold ourselves and each other to the Truth and not fall for deception.