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Radagast
May 1st 2010, 12:13 AM
There has been some heated discussion lately about "free will," and I wanted to work out what people understood by the phrase. Here are some things it might mean:

1. Human choices are GENUINELY WILLED. For example, when I go out with friends for icecream, I spend several minutes imagining the different flavors before I choose pistachio. I choose pistachio because that's what I want: I prefer it to strawberry, vanilla, etc.

2. Human choices carry PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I have sensitive teeth, so the icecream will make my teeth hurt. That's my fault because I was the one that wanted the ice cream.

3. Human choices CAUSE a selection from among alternative future universes, which are REAL possibilities up until the moment of our choice -- to quote the Terminator films: "The future is not written. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves." I believe God knew from eternity that I would choose pistachio last evening, so I believe there never was an alternative universe where I chose vanilla -- it was indeed written that I would choose pistachio

4. Human choices are UNPREDICTABLE. Nobody knows what we will choose until we choose it. Actually, I always wind up choosing pistachio on weekdays. All my friends know that, and there was hardly any left, so my friends had left the last of the pistachio for me.

Please tick all the options that apply.

RogerW
May 1st 2010, 02:16 AM
Hi Radagast,

This should evoke some interesting replies.

Doesn't free imply without a cause? To be totally free would it be necessary to be exempt from any source of bondage? If we answer yes...can free will of man actually exist?

Many Blessings,
RW

Radagast
May 1st 2010, 02:29 AM
Doesn't free imply without a cause? To be totally free would it be necessary to be exempt from any source of bondage? If we answer yes...can free will of man actually exist?

Well, most people describe human beings as having "free will," but there's many different definitions of what that might mean. Hence this poll: what do people here think "free will" means?

Gulah Papyrus
May 1st 2010, 03:40 AM
I choose not to post in this thread.

crossnote
May 1st 2010, 03:41 AM
There is a difference of free will depending on what sphere of life we are speaking of and I don't see the poll reflecting any of that. For example many believe that man has a free will when it comes to which coat to put on before going out for the day. But it is a totally different ball game when asked if a person can come to Christ solely on the basis of free will.

Radagast
May 1st 2010, 07:15 AM
There is a difference of free will depending on what sphere of life we are speaking of and I don't see the poll reflecting any of that. For example many believe that man has a free will when it comes to which coat to put on before going out for the day. But it is a totally different ball game when asked if a person can come to Christ solely on the basis of free will.

Good point. I'd be interested in your answers both ways.

-SEEKING-
May 1st 2010, 01:41 PM
Personally I went with option 1. You're explanations brought back memories of Neo talking to the Oracle in The Matrix.

Radagast
May 1st 2010, 02:11 PM
Personally I went with option 1. You're explanations brought back memories of Neo talking to the Oracle in The Matrix.

I assume I'm the Oracle and you're Neo? ;)

notuptome
May 1st 2010, 02:32 PM
Is God in His soverignity not at liberty to extend free will to Hs creation? Man is created in His image and likeness. We have a will because God has a will. We are lesser than the Creator so our will is lesser than His.

Does the soverignity of God predetermine every event that will transpire in our lives? Or is the soverignity of God so immense that it can allow the creation the liberty to operate to the fullest extent short of becoming God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

-SEEKING-
May 1st 2010, 02:48 PM
I assume I'm the Oracle and you're Neo? ;)

Good one. :cool:

Servant89
May 1st 2010, 02:58 PM
Since the beginning of time, man has been trying to avoid accountability. Since the beginning of time man has been blaming God for everything.

When God asked Adam what happened after he sinned. Adam's answer to God started with: "The woman that you gave me, ..."

Shalom

RogerW
May 1st 2010, 05:25 PM
Well, most people describe human beings as having "free will," but there's many different definitions of what that might mean. Hence this poll: what do people here think "free will" means?

Well if your asking if humans having free will means they can, while unregenerate freely choose Christ for salvation, then I would ask, "are unregenerate humans under any bondage?" If they are, then how can it be said that they have free will? Can a human have free will and be in bondage at the same time?

Many Blessings,
RW

HisLeast
May 1st 2010, 06:06 PM
1. Human choices are GENUINELY WILLED.
Voted YES. If it were otherwise, all the scriptures and lessons designed to compel us to certain choices would be irrelevant.

2. Human choices carry PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Voted YES.

3. Human choices CAUSE a selection from among alternative future universes, which are REAL possibilities up until the moment of our choice -- to quote the Terminator films: "The future is not written. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves."
4. Human choices are UNPREDICTABLE. Nobody knows what we will choose until we choose it.
Voted NO to both of these but I might have misunderstood them. I believe God sees the sum of all potentials into infinity. So there are pre-existing potential possibilities that narrow to one "thread" at the time of choice, with infinite branches still in the future.

theBelovedDisciple
May 1st 2010, 08:32 PM
Well if your asking if humans having free will means they can, while unregenerate freely choose Christ for salvation, then I would ask, "are unregenerate humans under any bondage?" If they are, then how can it be said that they have free will? Can a human have free will and be in bondage at the same time?

Many Blessings,
RW

When Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His day.. those were claiming to 'know' the way'.. Moses Disciples, sons of Abraham... these who were wise in their own eyes ... heart blinded to the Truth, and ears shut... these who appear 'righteous' outwardly... in the Synagogues daily.. devout religious people... these whos when Jesus spoke... He constantly reminded them of their hyporcrisy....... My Words on your lips.. but your hearts are far from Me...

Jesus said.. their spiritual father was the devil.. they were claiming to walk in the light.. but were walking in 'darkness'.. and How Great was that Darkness... their 'free will' persay... was non existent.. but they were 'doing' the will of their 'jailor'.. satan... they were under the will of the prince of the power of the air.. the spirit of disobedience.. that now works in the children of disobedience.. these children.. who appear outwardly to appear Righteous and holy.. yet the inside is not 'clean'..

one has no free will persay... to come to Christ on their own, understand the things of God.......... when under the bondage of their jailor.. the jailor of spiritual darkness.. the prince of the power of the air... the only 'free will' would be the 'will that he (satan) imposes upon them.. as they are dead in trepsasses and sins.. blind to the Truth.. destined for Eternal Damnation. UNLESS.. God Soveriegnly Begins a Good work in their Life.. by Drawing them to Him.. revealing Himself to them.. and Saving them... He the Author and Finisher..

and this why Jesus said... by their Fruit ye shall know them.. you will 'know' the difference between the tares and Genuine Seed... if you are In Him.. and are Truely His...

according to the Word of God... all who are unsaved are children of disobedience.. walking in darkness.. according to the course of this world.. under the influence of the prince of the power of the air.. he , who has blinded their minds...

its only the Soveriegn Act of God.. as He moves on the lost soul.. this done thru His Grace and Mercy.. according to His Will and Foreknowledge... that a soul can Geuninely Receive His Grace and come to the Saving Faith and 'knowlege' of the Risen LORD....

Paul found this out.. on the Road to Damascus... he was NOT approached by this Group or that group.. asking him if he would like to make a 'decision' for Christ... NOPE..


many claim they can just come to 'christ' on their own.. our of their own power and ability...

these who claim this.. and profess this.. these would those planted by the 'other sower'.. he who wants to be like the most High... as he sows his weed seeds amongst the True Seed. the Children of the Kingdom..

when in spiritual bondage.... one has no 'free will'.. other than the 'will' of their jailor.. satan...

and Jesus said you would recognize him and his traits... and those he controls and manipulates.. this beginning with the perversion of the Word of God.. and the twisting of it...

one does not have to go very far to see that in full bloom..

BadDog
May 3rd 2010, 05:30 PM
There has been some heated discussion lately about "free will," and I wanted to work out what people understood by the phrase. Here are some things it might mean:

1. Human choices are GENUINELY WILLED. For example, when I go out with friends for icecream, I spend several minutes imagining the different flavors before I choose pistachio. I choose pistachio because that's what I want: I prefer it to strawberry, vanilla, etc.

2. Human choices carry PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I have sensitive teeth, so the icecream will make my teeth hurt. That's my fault because I was the one that wanted the ice cream.

3. Human choices CAUSE a selection from among alternative future universes, which are REAL possibilities up until the moment of our choice -- to quote the Terminator films: "The future is not written. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves." I believe God knew from eternity that I would choose pistachio last evening, so I believe there never was an alternative universe where I chose vanilla -- it was indeed written that I would choose pistachio

4. Human choices are UNPREDICTABLE. Nobody knows what we will choose until we choose it. Actually, I always wind up choosing pistachio on weekdays. All my friends know that, and there was hardly any left, so my friends had left the last of the pistachio for me.

Please tick all the options that apply.Radagast,

I don't have much time, because we're nearing the end of the semester, so I won't be able to share many details. But have you heard of "middle knowledge" (Molinism)? William Lane Craig is the #1 supporter of this view today. It is essentially a view of the foreknowledge-omniscience of God which allows for "genuinely willed" free will as you referred to it above and genuine election. Anyway, I marked all 4.

I believe that from our perspective, our choices do "CAUSE a selection from among alternative future universes" while from God's perspective He remains fully sovereign, though He has chosen to allow us to freely choose (genuinely-libertine freedom). He can still bring about His will, because of this heightened view of His omniscience-His knowledge of not just the past-present-future, but of all the possibilities. He actuates the world He wills. Of course, He cannot bring about a perfect world, in which no sinful acts exist, and that is self-evident since that is not the world in which we live. But He desires to have a genuine relationship with us, and such relationships cannot occur without our being able to genuinely choose Him.

CYL,

BD

BadDog
May 3rd 2010, 05:40 PM
Well if your asking if humans having free will means they can, while unregenerate freely choose Christ for salvation, then I would ask, "are unregenerate humans under any bondage?" If they are, then how can it be said that they have free will? Can a human have free will and be in bondage at the same time?

Many Blessings,
RW
Roger,

This is the Reformed position. My position incorporates a Reformed view of the sovereignty of God and an Arminian view of free will (libertine). IMO humans can freely choose, as scripture shows many appeals for us to do so. This does not limit the sovereignty of God, except to the degree which He choose to do so, so that He can have a relationship with us.

But what you're really getting into here is the ordo salutis - the "order of salvation." I suppose it will be difficult in such a thread to avoid going down that path. :P

Thx,

BD

Firefighter
May 3rd 2010, 06:46 PM
I don't know, whatever I write will be predestined... I think, or am I choosing not to know? :dunno:

:lol:

RabbiKnife
May 3rd 2010, 06:47 PM
You were predestined to have a free will, but then, you also free chose to follow your destiny.

It all works out in the end.

Radagast
May 4th 2010, 12:09 AM
But have you heard of "middle knowledge" (Molinism)? William Lane Craig is the #1 supporter of this view today.

I'm aware of it. It's the most common Roman Catholic opinion on these issues, particularly among Jesuits.

But I put the poll up to show that we have quite different understanding of the nature of "free will," although there are some things that virtually all of us agree on.

This means that we should be aware of the differences when using the term "free will" in discussion.

Radagast
May 4th 2010, 02:50 AM
So far, this poll is:

Large majority -- human choices are GENUINELY WILLED (we want what we choose and choose what we want) and carry PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Just over 50% -- human choices are not unpredictable, and the future IS written.

Significant minority -- human choices ARE unpredictable, and the future is NOT written.

We clearly don't fully agree on what "free will" is, so we should be careful in using a phrase that people interpret differently.

BadDog
May 4th 2010, 11:15 AM
I'm aware of it. It's the most common Roman Catholic opinion on these issues, particularly among Jesuits.

But I put the poll up to show that we have quite different understanding of the nature of "free will," although there are some things that virtually all of us agree on.

This means that we should be aware of the differences when using the term "free will" in discussion.It's not actually a RC doctrine. Back about the time of the reformation (not related) there was a debate between a couple of RC priests about the knowledge of God. That's where this position originated. But William Lane Craig is universally accepted as the #1 apologist today, and there are scores of prominent evangelistic theologians who hold to this position, including many at DTS (a very conservative institution), FWIW. I like it because it has the strongest position for the omniscience of God, and allows logically for both libertine free will and a strong sovereignty of God position regarding election.

OK, thx for the heads-up on your motives. As I look back on it, I guess I might have to not accept #4 then. From the perspective of the Lord, He knows in great detail the possible impact of every little conscious or unconscious decision we make on every person and creature on the planet. I guess I'm not sure what that one is about. What does it have to do with free will?

Good thread. The title intrigued me before I decided to vote, and didn't realize who had launched this thread. Regarding that other thread (Eph. 1:3-14), I wish I had taken the time to do a little research on it before I launched into my arguments there. I feel quite strongly that DE translation is more accurate than FE, and I never really looked to see what others thought on the "1-sentence" of the text idea. Most do see the Greek as 1 sentence, including Daniel Wallace (to a degree), and the "ἐν ᾧ" (in whom) phrase should have been a big clue that the clauses were all tied together. I think you were trying to give me a heads-up on that. But ultimately, 1 sentence in Greek is not necessarily best translated as 1 sentence in English, which is the approach to take there.

OK: I have a question regarding #3 as well: Just because we view our choice is genuinely real until we make that choice, and impacts possible future "worlds," do you see that as impacting God's ultimate sovereignty over our free will?

Thx,

BD

Radagast
May 4th 2010, 02:23 PM
But William Lane Craig is universally accepted as the #1 apologist today

#1 within Protestant circles, I guess you mean. The Jesuits are just as keen on Molinism today as they were 400 years ago.


I wish I had taken the time to do a little research on it before I launched into my arguments there.

I wish I had phrased the questions on this thread slightly better. But the poll does show philosophical differences on the nature of free will even before we start talking about salvation. It's good to be aware of that.


OK: I have a question regarding #3 as well: Just because we view our choice is genuinely real until we make that choice, and impacts possible future "worlds," do you see that as impacting God's ultimate sovereignty over our free will?

Well, I wasn't trying to have a debate here, but personally I believe that the future is indeed "written." I think even Luis de Molina believed that: the scientia media he spoke of was of statements like "if you had done X instead of Y then Z would have happened," and did not change the fact that God foresaw your doing Y.

That doesn't answer your question, but I'm not sure I understood it.

BadDog
May 4th 2010, 04:04 PM
#1 within Protestant circles, I guess you mean. The Jesuits are just as keen on Molinism today as they were 400 years ago.
BD: Interesting

<snip>

OK: I have a question regarding #3 as well: Just because we view our choice is genuinely real until we make that choice, and impacts possible future "worlds," do you see that as impacting God's ultimate sovereignty over our free will?

Well, I wasn't trying to have a debate here, but personally I believe that the future is indeed "written." I think even Luis de Molina believed that: the scientia media he spoke of was of statements like "if you had done X instead of Y then Z would have happened," and did not change the fact that God foresaw your doing Y.

That doesn't answer your question, but I'm not sure I understood it.
Not trying to debate either, though I find this issue of free will-sovereignty intriguing. I believe that the future is written as well. That is the premise behind Molinism... that this can be true yet free will be libertine since God's knowledge is so extensive. He knows the would-ofs and could-ofs when He actuated the world in which we live. He is outside of time-space.

The example that WL Craig gives is from 1 Sam. 23 when David protected Keilah from the Philistines. After doing so, he and his 600 men were inside the city walls when a resident of the city, trying to get in good with King Saul, sent a messenger to Saul informing him that David and his men were in the city, and if he hurried, he could trap them within the city walls.

Word got back to David that this might have happened, and he donned an ephod and asked God if Saul would come to the city. The Lord answered in the affirmative. Then he asked the Lord if the people would turn him and his men over to Saul. Again the Lord answered in the affirmative.

So David and his men left Keilah. As a result, Saul (when he heard of this) stopped his journey and returned to his palace. He never came to Keilah and the citizens of Keilah were never faced with the dilemma of whether or not to turn David and his men, who had just rescued the city, over to Saul.

We are reading then, from the Bible, about an event that never occurred. God never actuated such a world in which Keilah turned David over to Saul. So David's choices did affect his unwritten future, yet from God's perspective, such an event would never occur. IOW, because of God's tremendous omniscience, He is able to actuate the world He desires, without limiting man's freedom to choose. Libertine freedom and sovereignty. (Of course, God does choose to allow certain evils so that we can choose Him. Without genuine choice there can be no genuine love. So God's sovereignty is limited based upon His own attributes and to the degree that He chooses to limit it.)

Anyway, an interesting proposition. There's a book out in which 4 views of free will and God's foreknowledge are debated. It's called Divine Foreknowledge

http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Foreknowledge-James-K-Beilby/dp/0830826521

Gregory A. Boyd, David Hunt, William Lane Craig and Paul Helm are the 4 contributors. It's a kind of point-counterpoint book, for those who want to consider the various positions out there on this topic. Excellent book. I've read it twice. (The simple foreknowledge view [God only knows in advance what will happen], the Reformed view [God predetermines everything, we only think we choose], open theism , and [I]middle knowledge)

BD

John146
May 4th 2010, 07:45 PM
Well if your asking if humans having free will means they can, while unregenerate freely choose Christ for salvation, then I would ask, "are unregenerate humans under any bondage?" If they are, then how can it be said that they have free will? Can a human have free will and be in bondage at the same time?

Many Blessings,
RWA person in bondage is not forcefully kept from asking to mercifully be set free from their bondage or kept from accepting a way out of their bondage if it is offered.

Radagast
May 5th 2010, 12:23 AM
So David's choices did affect his unwritten future, yet from God's perspective, such an event would never occur. IOW, because of God's tremendous omniscience, He is able to actuate the world He desires, without limiting man's freedom to choose. Libertine freedom and sovereignty.

I think that free will (in some form) can be reconciled with divine sovereignty. I'm not sure of that "unwritten future" aspect. As I said before, I think we lack the language to describe things from God's point of view. From David's point of view, the future was unknown and dependent on choices which is, for practical purposes, the same as unwritten (of course, when you pray, the two points of view start to interact).

The philosophy of this sort of thing gets touched on in time-travel stories, like the great movie Déjà Vu.


There's a book out in which 4 views of free will and God's foreknowledge are debated. It's called Divine Foreknowledge

I like those "four views" books.

BadDog
May 5th 2010, 11:35 AM
I think that free will (in some form) can be reconciled with divine sovereignty. I'm not sure of that "unwritten future" aspect. As I said before, I think we lack the language to describe things from God's point of view. From David's point of view, the future was unknown and dependent on choices which is, for practical purposes, the same as unwritten (of course, when you pray, the two points of view start to interact).

The philosophy of this sort of thing gets touched on in time-travel stories, like the great movie Déjà Vu.



I like those "four views" books.
Thx. This book is a good one.

I think a key is recognizing that He is God and we are not. :P But seriously, we need to recognize that He thinks in a whole new arena than we do.

BD

theBelovedDisciple
May 6th 2010, 02:54 PM
Thx. This book is a good one.

I think a key is recognizing that He is God and we are not. :P But seriously, we need to recognize that He thinks in a whole new arena than we do.

BD


Those who have the 'mind of Christ'... do they think as 'man' thinks.. or are they attune to the Things of God and 'know' His Will for their life... this the spiritual man.. as Paul teaches...

Yes God's Ways and thoughts are not like 'man's'..... but those that have the Mind of Christ .. thru the Work of the Eternal Spirit..

may 'know' His Will and Understand fully what His Will for their lives is....

would one consider this 'free will' on the person's part.. or being directed and guided by the Eternal Spirit.. as the Disciple has the 'mind of Christ'..

I would not consider this 'free will'.. but the will of the Disciple directed as he/she learns from the Master and is guided and directed and 'led' by the Holy Ghost....

BadDog
May 6th 2010, 04:29 PM
To what extent does God lead us in decisions we make?

BD

Athanasius
May 6th 2010, 06:03 PM
Voted for 1 and 2, did not vote for 4 because I associate it with Open Theism. Almost voted three, but not sure I understood it correctly (i.e how it would relate to Molinism).

BadDog
May 7th 2010, 05:08 PM
FWIW, I'm a molinist.

BD

Athanasius
May 7th 2010, 05:11 PM
FWIW, I'm a molinist.

BD

Yeah, had read that some where... Or seen a massive discussion you had. Well, also voted against 3 because of prophecy.

BadDog
May 10th 2010, 04:06 PM
Yeah, had read that some where... Or seen a massive discussion you had. Well, also voted against 3 because of prophecy.
I like Molinism because it has such a high view of the omniscience of God. I would rather err on that side than the other direction. Also, it helps me to see how possibly election and free will do not conflict. Philosophy can be so difficult to follow... so I don't get bent out of shape if anyone doesn't agree with Molinism.

BD

Boo
Sep 25th 2012, 10:08 AM
All I need to know about free will is that I make decisions based on heart and mind.

While I know that I am free to make bad choices, I choose not to. I do not want to end up making a mess of my life and displeasing my Lord and, thereby, destroying my witness before others. Am I free to err? Yes. Will I? I pray that I do not.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 27th 2012, 06:15 PM
Since the beginning of time, man has been trying to avoid accountability. Since the beginning of time man has been blaming God for everything.

When God asked Adam what happened after he sinned. Adam's answer to God started with: "The woman that you gave me, ..."

Shalom


indeed :yes: the blame game originated along with the original sin...
Eve automatically blamed the serpent who "beguiled" her & Adam followed suit; attempting to avoid accountability...
even though God had already forewarned them of the consequences; they still chose to disregard Him & did it anyway...

which sadly :sad: perpetuates among humanity to this day...
either by outright denying our sins, or finding fault in others/shifting the blame...
NONE of which is conducive to repentance; to be forgiven & reconciled to God through Christ

He who covers his transgressions will not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes his sins will obtain mercy. {Proverbs 28:13 AMP}

Nick
Nov 27th 2012, 07:18 PM
The choices I make (free will) are a direct result of my belief system at that point in time, which is constantly evolving. For example, if I truly believe I'm an alcoholic then the choice not to drink is an obvious one because the consequences of doing so result in self-destruction yet does that belief always keep an alcoholic from drinking? No. Why? Well, because our brains lie to us. Satan constantly puts ideas in my mind that rationalize and justify self-destructive behavior. Satan will tell me things like "it's not cheating on my wife" to go get an hand job at a massage parlor. Satan will tell me it's just part of the overall massage experience. The powers of rationalization and justification run deep. The trick is to put each idea to the test: Is it selfish or is it not? This is where the Holy Spirit comes into play to question my motives in everything I do. I can choose (free will) to listen to the voice or ignore it. When I ignore it, I pay a price and that price is spiritual separation from God until I truly repent. Repenting means doing a complete 180. Repenting is NOT continuing to repeat over and over that same sinful behavior and then just ask for forgiveness. If nothing changes, nothing changes.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Nov 28th 2012, 03:50 PM
The choices I make (free will) are a direct result of my belief system at that point in time, which is constantly evolving. For example, if I truly believe I'm an alcoholic then the choice not to drink is an obvious one because the consequences of doing so result in self-destruction yet does that belief always keep an alcoholic from drinking? No. Why? Well, because our brains lie to us.

Satan constantly puts ideas in my mind that rationalize and justify self-destructive behavior. Satan will tell me things like "it's not cheating on my wife" to go get an hand job at a massage parlor. Satan will tell me it's just part of the overall massage experience. The powers of rationalization and justification run deep.


sad, but true... our Adversary has honed his craft of "beguilement" for quite some time now... he's going all out, to make those sinful indulgences "feel so good"... often even suggesting self vindicating excuses; like "you're entitled to make yourself happy" & "nevermind the consequences"... that's always been the "punchline" :thumbsdn: to his cruel jokes upon humanity



The trick is to put each idea to the test: Is it selfish or is it not? This is where the Holy Spirit comes into play to question my motives in everything I do.
I can choose (free will) to listen to the voice or ignore it. When I ignore it, I pay a price and that price is spiritual separation from God until I truly repent. Repenting means doing a complete 180.
Repenting is NOT continuing to repeat over and over that same sinful behavior and then just ask for forgiveness. If nothing changes, nothing changes.


:amen: to this!... most excellent advice indeed!...
the Holy Spirit DOES try to get us to stop & think; about what's really motivating the choice we're pondering... God's Way of disciplining His children (for our own benefit) & to avoid the regretful consequences of sin...

& you're also correct about selfishness; because it IS most often the root source of many sinful indulgences... with carnal warring against Spiritual... & our free will to choose, determines the results we bring upon ourselves...
the Parable of the Prodigal Son {Luke 15} depicts a scenario of some hard lessons learned, from selfish sinful indulgences... & the regretful consequences it took for him to come to repentance... to want to return to his Father's house & realizing how much better it was there & how grateful he should have been...

like his Father, God's Love extends us Grace, Mercy & Forgiveness... when we turn away from our sins (in genuine repentance) & turn back to God our Father :hug:

philer
Dec 2nd 2012, 04:56 AM
There has been some heated discussion lately about "free will," and I wanted to work out what people understood by the phrase. Here are some things it might mean:

1. Human choices are GENUINELY WILLED. For example, when I go out with friends for icecream, I spend several minutes imagining the different flavors before I choose pistachio. I choose pistachio because that's what I want: I prefer it to strawberry, vanilla, etc.
Hi agreed many discussions on this topic . yes what we do is willed. but is it OUR own will? can we say that our desire, thought,motivation etc was not designed,planned and predetermined? no, we cannot say that, many people think or believe that what they are doing etc. is occurring randomly , which gives the impression to them it is their choice,their will , but is it ?

[QUOTE=Radagast;2399614]2. Human choices carry PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I have sensitive teeth, so the icecream will make my teeth hurt. That's my fault because I was the one that wanted the ice cream.[QUOTE] sounds simple enough,yet your a sinner,regardless of anything you say or do, you were a sinner without christ not because you are responsible for being a sinner,you are human born a sinner , are you responsible for being born that way? no, but if you look at it the way you did with the icecream, it was your fault, you deserve death and there is no need for a savior for you because you willingly rebelled against GOD, so the only logical conclusion is you are not responsible you were not purposely sin against GOD, yet you did and now you need forgiveness because you now know what you did is wrong. as far as your icecream and you wanting it even though it makes your teeth hurt, why would you eat it if makes your teeth hurt,desire? is it greater than the pain that awaits you if you do? if so, then desire is why you did it, are you responsible for that desire? you didn't create it, yet it caused you to hurt yourself ,if the desire didn't do that,then question becomes why did you hurt yourself?. and so forth.

of course in the end there will be many who believe in freewill, and they will disagree with me of course i anticipate that. It comes down to the obvious, if you could be sinless you would have been, and perfect you would have chosen ,and eternal life would be yours simply by decision, but sadly none of these were true,i am a sinner,i am not perfect, and i hope GOD will grant me eternal life , because i cannot choose to be sinless,cannot decide i will be perfect here forward and i cannot make GOD give me eternal life because i want it or desire it. what else can i say.

jesusislord
Dec 2nd 2012, 05:04 AM
Just read that question again.

What do YOU THINK about FREE will??

It's a question that makes no sense.

THINK!! FREE!! WILL!! in one sentence.
WOW!! May we all think more clearly.


MARK 12:29-31

AGAPE.

-SEEKING-
Dec 2nd 2012, 07:41 PM
Does agape mean sarcasm?

percho
Dec 3rd 2012, 04:05 PM
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 20:2,3 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Would it be possible for a man to have free will prior to the sealing of the Devil and Satan?

Bandit
Dec 4th 2012, 04:16 AM
What do you think about Free Will?

[In a robot voice] "I have not been predestined with an answer to this question."

Boo
Dec 4th 2012, 10:17 AM
If there was no fee will, there would be no use for the word "choose."

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 4th 2012, 04:33 PM
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2,3 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Would it be possible for a man to have free will prior to the sealing of the Devil and Satan?


(along with all mankind) Adam & Eve had the free will to choose...
they could either appreciate the Words of God & heed His forewarning...

OR they could choose the enticing beguilement of the Adversary...
sadly; he's quite adept at making his offers appealing to carnal mentality

although after the 1,000 year Reign of Christ, the enemy's influence should be greatly diminished

philer
Dec 5th 2012, 04:05 AM
If there was no fee will, there would be no use for the word "choose."

if i line up 3 different colored blocks,and one red,one black and one blue,and i program a machine to pick a blue block,then a red one,then a blue one ,and some one watched it, and you asked them what order did the robot choose the blocks? does this imply freewill because i use the word choose?

fewarechosen
Dec 5th 2012, 04:23 AM
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

i say choose life

fewarechosen
Dec 5th 2012, 04:35 AM
there is also election

Rom_9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

Boo
Dec 5th 2012, 11:01 AM
if i line up 3 different colored blocks,and one red,one black and one blue,and i program a machine to pick a blue block,then a red one,then a blue one ,and some one watched it, and you asked them what order did the robot choose the blocks? does this imply freewill because i use the word choose?
Yes. Misuse of the word choose for the actions of a robot would cause a problem. The choice was made by the programmer; not the machine.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 5th 2012, 03:14 PM
if i line up 3 different colored blocks,and one red,one black and one blue,and i program a machine to pick a blue block,then a red one,then a blue one ,and some one watched it, and you asked them what order did the robot choose the blocks? does this imply freewill because i use the word choose?


yes :yes: it implies your free will... as in; the order you chose to program the machine/robot

but (obviously) not :no: for the machine/robot itself... since you programmed it, as you chose

unless, perhaps?... it was programmed to randomly choose? :hmm: or not?

I'd guess not; since it still requires someone else to program it (as they choose)

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 5th 2012, 03:21 PM
Yes. Misuse of the word choose for the actions of a robot would cause a problem. The choice was made by the programmer; not the machine.


oops :blushhap: sorry Boo... didn't realize that you'd already responded the same...
was only answering from my email notifications, so I hadn't read any other new responses yet

Realist1981
Dec 5th 2012, 04:34 PM
The flesh will perish. We are told to bury the flesh and be born again and worship God in the Spirit because God is Spirit and no flesh will enter Heaven.

We have free will to follow Christ or follow the world. It's as simple as that. To live or die. If we don't even have choice what's the point of our existance?
To be pre programmed to die eternally in flames of agony or to be pre programmed to live in eternally in Heaven?

philer
Dec 6th 2012, 03:27 AM
The flesh will perish. We are told to bury the flesh and be born again and worship God in the Spirit because God is Spirit and no flesh will enter Heaven.

We have free will to follow Christ or follow the world. It's as simple as that. To live or die. If we don't even have choice what's the point of our existance?
To be pre programmed to die eternally in flames of agony or to be pre programmed to live in eternally in Heaven?

the simple answer is yes, the end was declared from the beginning,there are names not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,especially those who recieve the mark of the beast, and there are those who are. The point of our existance? the meaning of life? isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 46:11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country.I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it."

what can we say then, we are here because GOD willed it,we die because he wills it, all things are because of his will, and all things are not if he wills it.

Boo
Dec 6th 2012, 11:01 AM
Yes, and God willed that we be permitted to make choices. You can't really love God if he forces you to it. The wonder of loving someone is when your heart chooses to. Loving God out of your will is what God really wants. From that stems worship and obedience.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 8th 2012, 04:12 PM
Yes, and God willed that we be permitted to make choices. You can't really love God if he forces you to it. The wonder of loving someone is when your heart chooses to. Loving God out of your will is what God really wants. From that stems worship and obedience.


:amen: to this!... I especially appreciate your assertion about choosing from the heart :love_heart: for our love for God (or anyone else) to be genuine anyway

philer
Dec 9th 2012, 01:45 AM
Yes, and God willed that we be permitted to make choices. You can't really love God if he forces you to it. The wonder of loving someone is when your heart chooses to. Loving God out of your will is what God really wants. From that stems worship and obedience.


ah but theres the catch isnt it,you dont will love, it is an emotion,and you feel it or you do not feel it, you do not will yourself to love,love is not a decision or choice.

TomH
Dec 9th 2012, 03:13 AM
philer, I must say, your posts are convoluted and make absolutely no sense.

TomH
Dec 9th 2012, 04:30 AM
And because of Gods Omniscience, He would know what would have happened if you had chosen vanilla over pistachio.

In the beginning, God knew ALL things that would take place.

God, being all knowledgable would ba able to tell you all the events of history, no matter what choices were made.

If Cain had not killed Abel, God would be able to tell you events of history as it would have happened.

Liken it to a pinball game. God knowing exactly where that ball is going every second from beginning to end. And He could also tell you the moves and results of the game if the ball had caromed on bumper "A" instead of bumper "B" on the second recoche.

Yes, God is that good.

So when we say that we are predestined, it simply means that God has always known.

Note to self:
Don't play five card draw with God. You're predestined to lose.

Note to everyone else:

God knows what your free will choices are going to be. He's ALWAYS known. So from Gods perspective, you've ALWAYS been predestined.

To say otherwise is limiting a God that is UNlimited.

philer
Dec 9th 2012, 05:20 PM
philer, I must say, your posts are convoluted and make absolutely no sense.
\
if your having difficulty understanding what i have said,let me know what you don't understand i will be glad to help.

TomH
Dec 9th 2012, 07:20 PM
\
if your having difficulty understanding what i have said,let me know what you don't understand i will be glad to help.


Sure, just respond to the last post I made and you might clear things up for me.

philer
Dec 10th 2012, 02:58 AM
Sure, just respond to the last post I made and you might clear things up for me.

i don't disagree with what you said in that post, in fact if you read my posts i think you will find we agree,not the contrary.

RabbiKnife
Dec 10th 2012, 07:55 PM
I was predestined to have and exercise free will...

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 11th 2012, 05:27 PM
I was predestined to have and exercise free will...


"predestined" :hmm: as in; God has a plan & purpose for each of our lives?...

so we can exercise our free will; to cooperate with Him & bring about that better life...

OR we could exercise our free will; to ignore or reject His plan... thus reaping what we've sown

Realist1981
Dec 13th 2012, 07:21 PM
ah but theres the catch isnt it,you dont will love, it is an emotion,and you feel it or you do not feel it, you do not will yourself to love,love is not a decision or choice.

Agape love is not an emotion it's an unconditional service we should have for others as Jesus commanded us.

JOHN 13:34-35

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

http://www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html

That's a good study to read. If you were predestined to check it out or not.

Boo
Dec 14th 2012, 12:44 AM
Agape love is not an emotion it's an unconditional service we should have for others as Jesus commanded us.

JOHN 13:34-35

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

http://www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html

That's a good study to read. If you were predestined to check it out or not.

You know, you are correct. However, I have found that once I started thinking about the future of others and how I could affect their future, I started caring more about them. It may be a "chicken or the egg thing," but that is how it has worked for me. I don't will the caring; it comes when I start realizing how God must feel about them.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 14th 2012, 07:12 PM
ah but theres the catch isnt it, you dont will love, it is an emotion, and you feel it or you do not feel it,


THIS description is more in context with eros (carnal/sexual/romantic) love... although the "feeling" can be mutual; it OFTEN includes strong elements of SELF gratification also



you do not will yourself to love, love is not a decision or choice.


the Agape Love of God IS A LOT more in context WITH decision & choice... which goes above & beyond JUST words & feelings...
because it's more like God's Will to love IN ACTION; by doing good deeds, for the benefit of OTHERS & to put THEIR needs first...
which is contradictory to prioritizing SELF gratification

glad4mercy
Dec 14th 2012, 07:27 PM
I answered yes to all but the last one. I guess it depends who it is unpredictable with. It is not unpredictable with God, for He foreknows all things, but it is unpredictable to other people, and sometimes we are not sure how we will act in any given situation until we are in the midst of it.

I believe that man has a free will, but only by the enablement of God, and I also do not believe he is free until he is redeemed by Christ. Man may truly desire to be free from sin, but until he receives the Grace of God, he will not be able to.( see Romans 7) This is not to say that we can not eschew things like adultery, murder, etc. what it does mean is that we do not have the ability to attain unto true righteousness until it is imputed and imparted by Grace through faith in the work of Christ. Another word for this is "prevenient grace" which means grace that precedes salvation or even human decision. We are free to come to God only through Christ, and we are free to come to Christ only because we are drawn by the Father. What a wonderful thing this Grace is, in which the Lamb, the Spirit, and the Bride all say come.

percho
Dec 19th 2012, 04:13 PM
I still ask the question.

Why does the following not override freewill? And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev. 12:9

If a man is being deceived, how can he know he is being deceived?

Jesus said; Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:53

Just what/who did Eve and Adam eat that brought death, the opposite of above, to all men? What/who gave them knowledge of good and evil and were they deceived by this knowledge?
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, (God) and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, (the presence of God) to till the ground from whence he was taken.

It appears to me the only freewill was to do what they thought was right in their own heart. And who do you think is guiding their heart? Their children and children's children. Gen. 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. Who was controling their freewill?

God chose Noah not because Noah was some great man of God who by freewill was doing what was right, but he chose him so Jesus could be born of woman in the fulness of time.
And it would be Jesus the sinless one who would become obedient unto death even the death of the cross (faith) and then receive life again from his Father (grace) , by which the Holy Spirit could be given men which will being them unto eternal life. Soon after, Noah, the one called by God, came from the ark he got drunk and one of his degenerate sons commited some act which brought a curse to a whole people. One of his other sons was called for the bringing forth the Christ, (Anointed one).

Why will the following be necessary and is it relative to freewill? Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 19th 2012, 09:45 PM
If a man is being deceived, how can he know he is being deceived?


Adam & Eve could have followed God's Advice, of their own free will
& they could have heeded His forewarning, for their own good

how can modern humanity know? :hmm:
by learning the Way, the Truth & the Life from Christ Jesus...
to stop being so easily duped by the enticements of the enemy

percho
Dec 21st 2012, 04:52 AM
Adam & Eve could have followed God's Advice, of their own free will
& they could have heeded His forewarning, for their own good

how can modern humanity know? :hmm:
by learning the Way, the Truth & the Life from Christ Jesus...
to stop being so easily duped by the enticements of the enemy

What is the importance at the return of Jesus to sit on the throne of his glory to chain Satan in a pit and not to allow him to deceive the nations?

Will him being bound have any affect upon their will?

MaryFreeman
Dec 21st 2012, 06:02 AM
Well I only chose the first two.... I would have chosen the third but did not like the interpretation as set out in green.... There is only one thing I would change about the third interpretation.... And that would be that it wasn't written that one chooses pistachio just because God knew one would.... Knowing and causing are two different things....

I can walk up to my mother and hold out both hands to her.... In one would be a Pepsi.... In the other.... A Coca Cola.... I would give neither precedence over the other (say.... Holding one can/bottle out further than the other).... And yet I know for certain she would accept the Pepsi.... Why? Because I have known my mother all my life.... And I know she would choose the Pepsi.... Because my mother loves Pepsi.... But I did nothing to cause her to choose the Pepsi.... God knows pistachio lovers will choose pistachio because He knew them before they were born (Jer. 1:5).... But pistachio lovers will choose pistachio not because they were made to.... But because they love pistachio.... And if their teeth hurt because of it.... That's on them....

Think though.... Who's fault would it be that their teeth hurt IF God had made them eat pistachio ice cream? But considering God means only good for you.... Wouldn't He steer you away from what is painful?

Just a thought....

MaryFreeman
Dec 21st 2012, 06:03 AM
What is the importance at the return of Jesus to sit on the throne of his glory to chain Satan in a pit and not to allow him to deceive the nations?

Will him being bound have any affect upon their will?Yep.... To both questions the answer is to show mankind it wasn't just the devil that made them do it....

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 23rd 2012, 03:34 AM
Yep.... To both questions the answer is to show mankind it wasn't just the devil that made them do it....


:agree: he didn't make them do anything they didn't choose to do of their own free will