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TheAnswer99
May 1st 2010, 11:53 PM
Throughout the Gospels, we see Jesus acting as an individual through private means to bring people to God, to help the poor, and to spread his message

Given that Jesus and the early Church were minorities, they were enemies of the respective governments in every country.

Nowadays, Christianity is the major world religion, and Christians make up the majority population in several nations.

I've always struggled with how we, as Christians, are supposed to deal with government since Jesus and the early Church did not do things via government, but rather, via private means.
Would Jesus be for or against universal healthcare?
Would Jesus be for or against censorship?
I honestly don't know

Can anyone provide Biblical justification for the following:
1.) Should Christians be involved in government
2.) If Christians should be involved in government, is there Biblical support for the idea of a secular or religiously-motivated policies?
3.) Should Christians always obey secular government? (American Revolution, Hitler's Germany, etc.)

Radagast
May 2nd 2010, 01:32 AM
I've always struggled with how we, as Christians, are supposed to deal with government since Jesus and the early Church did not do things via government, but rather, via private means.

The early Christians walked along government-built Roman roads, and drank water from government-built Roman aqueducts. Many Christians in the first few centuries were in the Roman army.


Would Jesus be for or against universal healthcare?

Given what Jesus said about looking after the sick (Matthew 25 etc) Jesus would certainly want somebody looking after those people who are poor and sick. In the early centuries, the churches set up many hospitals for this reason.


1.) Should Christians be involved in government

Well, Joseph and Daniel are two Old Testament examples.


2.) If Christians should be involved in government, is there Biblical support for the idea of a secular or religiously-motivated policies?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Any Christians involved in government (and that includes voters) will need to make choices that are wise and pleasing to God. That means following one's conscience. However, it would be wrong for the government to force non-Christians to pretend to be Christian. In fact, bitter experience throughout history has indicated that it's better for governments not to get involved in religion at all.


3.) Should Christians always obey secular government? (American Revolution, Hitler's Germany, etc.)

Not when it involves sinning, but most of the time:

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (Romans 13:1-7)

Butch5
May 2nd 2010, 01:43 AM
Throughout the Gospels, we see Jesus acting as an individual through private means to bring people to God, to help the poor, and to spread his message

Given that Jesus and the early Church were minorities, they were enemies of the respective governments in every country.

Nowadays, Christianity is the major world religion, and Christians make up the majority population in several nations.

I've always struggled with how we, as Christians, are supposed to deal with government since Jesus and the early Church did not do things via government, but rather, via private means.
Would Jesus be for or against universal healthcare?
Would Jesus be for or against censorship?
I honestly don't know

Can anyone provide Biblical justification for the following:
1.) Should Christians be involved in government
2.) If Christians should be involved in government, is there Biblical support for the idea of a secular or religiously-motivated policies?
3.) Should Christians always obey secular government? (American Revolution, Hitler's Germany, etc.)

The answers are simply my friend. Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. If you are a citizen in God's kingdom what have you to do with the kingdoms of darkness. All of the kingdoms of this world fall under the kingdom of darkness, we have been delivered from the kingdom of darkness. Paul said not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, how can one serve in secular government and not be unequally yoked? Christ has given a prohibition on violence, how can we serve in a government that supports war? What about a government that allows abortion? How can we be yoked with such unbelievers. Christ has told us not to sit in judgment on another's life, how can we serve a government that does just that. Let me say I am not knocking the governments God has instituted them for that very purpose, however, it is not the Christians place.

In regard to your last question the answer is yes, to the point that one can still obey God's laws. If it comes to the point that the government commands us to break God's commands we are not to follow.

TheAnswer99
May 2nd 2010, 02:03 AM
The early Christians walked along government-built Roman roads, and drank water from government-built Roman aqueducts. Many Christians in the first few centuries were in the Roman army.

1.) The fact that they walked on government roads and drank government water doesn't really say anything about how they were INVOLVED in the government
2.) I thought that the Early Christian Church was Pacifist and that Christians quit the army
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_pacifism#Early_Church


Given what Jesus said about looking after the sick (Matthew 25 etc) Jesus would certainly want somebody looking after those people who are poor and sick. In the early centuries, the churches set up many hospitals for this reason.I agree with you that Jesus would want somebody to look out for the poor and sick, but hospitals are private (and can be private charity or a private business). My question was whether Christians should advocate government action in healthcare



I'm not sure what you mean here. Any Christians involved in government (and that includes voters) will need to make choices that are wise and pleasing to God. That means following one's conscience. However, it would be wrong for the government to force non-Christians to pretend to be Christian. In fact, bitter experience throughout history has indicated that it's better for governments not to get involved in religion at all.I phrased the question VERY POORLY. Your answer seems to suggest that we should not legislate morality
My question was two-fold: Can Christians engage in the worldly kingdom, and if so, should they use the government to prevent gay marriage, stop adultery, etc.

TheAnswer99
May 2nd 2010, 02:06 AM
The answers are simply my friend. Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. If you are a citizen in God's kingdom what have you to do with the kingdoms of darkness. All of the kingdoms of this world fall under the kingdom of darkness, we have been delivered from the kingdom of darkness. Paul said not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, how can one serve in secular government and not be unequally yoked? Christ has given a prohibition on violence, how can we serve in a government that supports war? What about a government that allows abortion? How can we be yoked with such unbelievers. Christ has told us not to sit in judgment on another's life, how can we serve a government that does just that. Let me say I am not knocking the governments God has instituted them for that very purpose, however, it is not the Christians place.

In regard to your last question the answer is yes, to the point that one can still obey God's laws. If it comes to the point that the government commands us to break God's commands we are not to follow.

So you basically take the position the Society of Friends take: that we are not to engage in the politics of the world?

So we are not supposed to vote against those who do great damage such as pro-abortion candidates or pro-war candidates?

Radagast
May 2nd 2010, 02:19 AM
1.) The fact that they walked on government roads and drank government water doesn't really say anything about how they were INVOLVED in the government

I guess I didn't understand your question.


2.) I thought that the Early Christian Church was Pacifist and that Christians quit the army
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_pacifism#Early_Church

But see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_in_the_military


I agree with you that Jesus would want somebody to look out for the poor and sick, but hospitals are private (and can be private charity or a private business). My question was whether Christians should advocate government action in healthcare

I'm not going to touch US politics, but it's probably true that if there were more Christian charity hospitals, then there would be no push for government involvement.


II phrased the question VERY POORLY. Your answer seems to suggest that we should not legislate morality

The government should certainly legislate against murder and rape. It should certainly not enforce compulsory recitation of the Nicene Creed.


My question was two-fold: Can Christians engage in the worldly kingdom.

I'm not sure what "engage" means. Just living in a country means some engagement. Even more so in a democracy: if you vote in elections, you are engaging also. If you refuse to exercise your right to vote, you are supporting whoever gets in, which is also engagement. If you form part of a jury, you are exercising some of the functions of a judge, which is engagement again.

Butch5
May 2nd 2010, 03:32 AM
So you basically take the position the Society of Friends take: that we are not to engage in the politics of the world?

So we are not supposed to vote against those who do great damage such as pro-abortion candidates or pro-war candidates?

I used to be a big follower of politics, a hard core republican conservative. However, after studying the early church I realized they were right. If I have become a Christian, and a citizen of the kingdom of God, I have renounced my citizenship in the kingdoms of the world. James says, adulterers and adulteresses, friendship with the world is enmity with God. Paul said that the governments that be are instituted by God. If God is in control and running the show H e does not need me interfering. Christ did not give any instructions on entering politics or worldly governments or worldly affairs.

Radagast
May 2nd 2010, 03:55 AM
Paul said that the governments that be are instituted by God. If God is in control and running the show H e does not need me interfering.

But what Paul is saying is that God is running the show through systems of government established in various countries. If Christians are part of such systems of government, that's not "interfering."

Historically there have certainly been many Christians that followed this approach of total non-involvement: they were called monks. But if you're not a monk, some degree of contact with the world is inevitable.

John the Baptist spoke to two categories of government employees (soldiers and tax-collectors) and didn't tell either of them to quit their jobs:

Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?" "Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely—be content with your pay." (Luke 3:12-14)

RockSolid
May 2nd 2010, 05:01 PM
I don't see a problem with Christians in politics. The problem is when Christians start to legislate laws based on religion.

Butch5
May 2nd 2010, 06:11 PM
I don't see a problem with Christians in politics. The problem is when Christians start to legislate laws based on religion.

Are we to be citizens in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness?

Butch5
May 2nd 2010, 07:19 PM
Radagast---But what Paul is saying is that God is running the show through systems of government established in various countries. If Christians are part of such systems of government, that's not "interfering."


But when Paul made that statement there were no Christians in government. The Ante-Nicene Christians realized that you cannot be a citizen of both kingdoms. You cannot serve two masters. Paul said not to be unequally yoked. How can one enter politics without being unequally yoked?


Historically there have certainly been many Christians that followed this approach of total non-involvement: they were called monks. But if you're not a monk, some degree of contact with the world is inevitable.

I'm not talking about non-involvement. The Ante-Nicene Christians were in the world and not of it. I am talking about partaking in the world system in way that will require a Christian to compromise Christ's commands.



John the Baptist spoke to two categories of government employees (soldiers and tax-collectors) and didn't tell either of them to quit their jobs:

Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?" "Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely—be content with your pay." (Luke 3:12-14)

This is an argument from silence. We don't know that John never told them to leave the military. Do you think that those 13 words are the only words he spoke to them? I think it is quite possible that John did speak more to them, what he may have said we don't know.

I can tell you from reading the Ante-Nicene writers that the Ante-Nicene church require some in the military to take an oath not to use the sword and if a believer joined the military they were excommunicated. The question is where did they get this teaching from? Since it was universal it seems they were just following the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

RockSolid
May 2nd 2010, 10:56 PM
Are we to be citizens in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness?

Do you only vote for your church leaders or do you also vote for political leaders? You are voting for both kingdoms so you are part of both kingdoms. But God's laws should supercede any earthly government laws.
Do you pay taxes? Then you probably put more money in the "dark" kingdom than you do God's kingdom. We are citizens of both.
Paul used his Roman citizenship to his advantage to avoid a beating and spread the gospel.

I agree it's tough for a Christian in politics because we can't lie and we shouldn't be legislating laws based on religion.

RabbiKnife
May 3rd 2010, 06:45 PM
Jesus would be against universal health care as is currently in place as it violates the very law of the government which passed it. Further, Jesus was all about personal responsibility
Jesus would be against censorship as the truth hides from nothing.

Radagast
May 4th 2010, 12:40 AM
Further, Jesus was all about personal responsibility

Personal responsibility for other people:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt 25:31-46)

Butch5
May 4th 2010, 12:48 AM
Do you only vote for your church leaders or do you also vote for political leaders?
You are voting for both kingdoms so you are part of both kingdoms. But God's laws should supercede any earthly government laws.

No, I no longer vote in any political races.


Do you pay taxes? Then you probably put more money in the "dark" kingdom than you do God's kingdom. We are citizens of both.

I pat taxes because Christ commanded so.



Paul used his Roman citizenship to his advantage to avoid a beating and spread the gospel.

That is not living according to this world, and it is not partaking in government.


I agree it's tough for a Christian in politics because we can't lie and we shouldn't be legislating laws based on religion.

If you don't believe that a Christian should legislate based on religion, are you not placing secular rules and values above those of Christ?

chad
May 4th 2010, 04:27 AM
Jesus did not really teach much regarding Governments, except when asked about paying taxes to Caesar (Mt 22:17-21).

But 1 Peter 2:13-14 and Romans 13:1-7 teach us to submit to all governing authority, becuase all authority has been established by God.

inn
May 4th 2010, 02:38 PM
So you basically take the position the Society of Friends take: that we are not to engage in the politics of the world?

So we are not supposed to vote against those who do great damage such as pro-abortion candidates or pro-war candidates?

I personaly believe voting is a waste of time! God says He ordained the government that exists, I believe Him.

Vhayes
May 4th 2010, 02:39 PM
I personaly believe voting is a waste of time! God says He ordained the government that exists, I believe Him.

But you are a part of determining that government. Is it an obligation to vote?

RockSolid
May 4th 2010, 03:14 PM
If you don't believe that a Christian should legislate based on religion, are you not placing secular rules and values above those of Christ?
I answered that at the beginning of the quote. God's laws should supercede any earthly government laws in a Christians life.
So do you think a law should be made by a Christian in office that outlaws and punishes homosexuality with imprisonment?
What happens should a Scientologist get in office a legislate a law based on his religion?
You can't force religious laws on people. The outcome is not pretty.... just look at history. Religious laws are meant for the church.
This is the exact thinking that will bring the mark of the beast. Forced worship of the beast legislated by law, if you don't worship you will not be allowed to buy or sell.
The founding fathers had it right when they wrote the Constitution. Our country has deviated so far from the Constitution that it has become a joke.

Butch5
May 5th 2010, 02:32 AM
I answered that at the beginning of the quote. God's laws should supercede any earthly government laws in a Christians life.
So do you think a law should be made by a Christian in office that outlaws and punishes homosexuality with imprisonment?
What happens should a Scientologist get in office a legislate a law based on his religion?
You can't force religious laws on people. The outcome is not pretty.... just look at history. Religious laws are meant for the church.
This is the exact thinking that will bring the mark of the beast. Forced worship of the beast legislated by law, if you don't worship you will not be allowed to buy or sell.
The founding fathers had it right when they wrote the Constitution. Our country has deviated so far from the Constitution that it has become a joke.


No, I don't believe Christians should be involved in government at all. What does the kingdom of God have to do with the kingdom of darkness? I am in agreement with the apostle Paul.


2 Corinthians 6:14-15 ( KJV )
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

-SEEKING-
May 5th 2010, 02:37 AM
No, I don't believe Christians should be involved in government at all. What does the kingdom of God have to do with the kingdom of darkness? I am in agreement with the apostle Paul.


2 Corinthians 6:14-15 ( KJV )
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

I'll be honest I haven't read every post here but this one caught my attention. Just a question. I work in a place where as far as I know, I am the only Christian. What's different about working at my job, where I am amongst the kingdom of darkness, and working for the government? Why is there a different point of view?

teddyv
May 5th 2010, 05:04 AM
To get a bit Kuyperian, our world belongs to God. I think we should be active in all spheres of life, bringing salt and light to a dark world.

dan
May 5th 2010, 02:28 PM
...The government as a great way to "love thy neighbor".

Whether it is voting as a citizen, or voting as a member of a governing body, I find great satisfaction in having a positive effect on society, and, at times, furthering the cause of our God and Jesus, within the confines of the Constitution, of course.

I believe it is our duty.

inn
May 5th 2010, 02:52 PM
I feel that one of the best explanations of the government is found in Rev 17 and 18.
That s why I feel there is a difference in working in a shop amoung folk in the kingdom of darkness, for example, and working for the government.

inn
May 5th 2010, 02:55 PM
But you are a part of determining that government. Is it an obligation to vote?

The scripture as far as I can see in the New Covenant doesn t say we are part of determining the government by our voting. God ordained it before the creation of the world, He knows what s best. WE CERTIANLY DON T!

Radagast
May 5th 2010, 03:14 PM
The scripture as far as I can see in the New Covenant doesn t say we are part of determining the government by our voting. God ordained it before the creation of the world, He knows what s best. WE CERTIANLY DON T!

If God ordained a democracy, then surely He expects people to vote intelligently, just as when He ordains an aristocracy He expects princes to act wisely?

Gillian
May 5th 2010, 03:43 PM
a thought.

Peter asked Jesus is we should pay taxes. Jesus dont think so but still pay anyway, telling him find coin in fish mouth.

remeber God was Isreal leader till people in their corruption demand like other nations to have own king. God and Sameul not happy about it, knowing the agenda, but God said fine but on his appoinment with protesting Samuel, despite his protesting obey, found a king in Saul.
God warned about a king mean labour txes etc burden. can see that in jesus thinking too but as man or law demand respect the goverment and it demand. king david and many goverments OT are "christians" are saved in Christ.

Gillian

Butch5
May 5th 2010, 10:54 PM
I'll be honest I haven't read every post here but this one caught my attention. Just a question. I work in a place where as far as I know, I am the only Christian. What's different about working at my job, where I am amongst the kingdom of darkness, and working for the government? Why is there a different point of view?

Well, maybe not every position in the government , I am using the term in a general sense. To be more specific I am referring to positions which would cause a Christian to choose between Christ and their position. For instance, things like policy making and the like. Suppose you were mayor of your city, you would be over the chief of police, you may be put into a position where you would have to choose the out come of a situation. Let's say there was a bank robbery and their were hostages, you might be put in a position where you would have to order someone to open fire on the bank robbers, which would go against Christ's command. I know this is a rather extreme example, however, there are many everyday examples such as a police officer who may have to use force against someone. You may be a prison guard, or parole officer, you may be in positions over these people giving the orders, and so on. I mean I guess if you were a garbage collector or a Postal worker or something along that line you wouldn't have to compromise.

If we are citizens in the kingodm of God what part do we have in the kingdoms of this world? Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world.

teddyv
May 6th 2010, 04:59 AM
Well, maybe not every position in the government , I am using the term in a general sense. To be more specific I am referring to positions which would cause a Christian to choose between Christ and their position. For instance, things like policy making and the like. Suppose you were mayor of your city, you would be over the chief of police, you may be put into a position where you would have to choose the out come of a situation. Let's say there was a bank robbery and their were hostages, you might be put in a position where you would have to order someone to open fire on the bank robbers, which would go against Christ's command. I know this is a rather extreme example, however, there are many everyday examples such as a police officer who may have to use force against someone. You may be a prison guard, or parole officer, you may be in positions over these people giving the orders, and so on. I mean I guess if you were a garbage collector or a Postal worker or something along that line you wouldn't have to compromise.
Why would a Christian police officer using force be contrary to Christ's command? Or even your extreme example. Those people have authority vested in them. We have members here that are/have been soldiers - what's the difference (if any)?


If we are citizens in the kingodm of God what part do we have in the kingdoms of this world? Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world.Does this world not belong to God?

ThyWordIsTruth
May 6th 2010, 07:54 AM
No, I don't believe Christians should be involved in government at all. What does the kingdom of God have to do with the kingdom of darkness? I am in agreement with the apostle Paul.


2 Corinthians 6:14-15 ( KJV )
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

So were Daniel and Joseph also unequally yoked with the kingdom of darkness?

inn
May 8th 2010, 12:13 PM
If God ordained a democracy, then surely He expects people to vote intelligently, just as when He ordains an aristocracy He expects princes to act wisely?


Yes Rad... We always need to act wisely in everything we do, but if He ordained the government, my vote is not going to change what He has ordained. Do you agree with this statement?

inn
May 8th 2010, 12:18 PM
So were Daniel and Joseph also unequally yoked with the kingdom of darkness?


I would say, but not on behalf of Butch, that Dan and Jo were part of a different structure, an Old Covenant one. It s only in the New Covenant that we are commanded to not be unequaly yoked. Does this help?

inn
May 8th 2010, 12:23 PM
Why would a Christian police officer using force be contrary to Christ's command? Or even your extreme example. Those people have authority vested in them. We have members here that are/have been soldiers - what's the difference (if any)?

Does this world not belong to God?

The way I see it is; it is BETTER not to be a policeman so as to not put yourself in a compromising position where you need to struggle with, "Is this command to go and do ....from my commanding officer what Jesus would do?" The earth belongs to God, the world as explained in 1 John belongs to darkness. Does this help?

RockSolid
May 8th 2010, 10:54 PM
Police officers are out there keeping our communities safe, keeping drunk drivers off the road so they don't kill people, arresting thieves that try to steal your things, locking up drug dealers that are trying to get your kids hooked, and keeping sex offenders away from your children. They are killed everyday doing this for us. They do a great service and here we are saying that Christians shouldn't be policemen. Sounds like a noble profession to me. I would rather be dealing with a Christian cop than a crooked one.

Butch5
May 10th 2010, 02:03 AM
Why would a Christian police officer using force be contrary to Christ's command? Or even your extreme example. Those people have authority vested in them. We have members here that are/have been soldiers - what's the difference (if any)?

The difference is that in these positions one would be forced to compromise and disobey the command of Christ. For instance, love your enemy, do not return evil for evil, do not resist and evil man. Or Paul's words love your neighbor.


Does this world not belong to God?

It does but Christians are clearly told not to be of the world.

Butch5
May 10th 2010, 02:13 AM
So were Daniel and Joseph also unequally yoked with the kingdom of darkness?

Daniel and Joseph were specifically put there by God, and they were under a different covenant. If you can produce Scripture showing anyone today who has been directly appointed by God to serve the Government I might be willing to change my position. Why do you seek to find individuals form the old covenant, instead of the new? However, Tertullian answers you question.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Chap. XVII.—The Cases of Servants and Other Officials. What Offices a Christian Man May Hold. But what shall believing servants or children do? officials likewise, when attending on their lords, or patrons, or superiors, when sacrificing? Well, if any one shall have handed the wine to a sacrificer, nay, if by any 72 single word necessary or belonging to a sacrifice he shall have aided him, he will be held to be a minister of idolatry. Mindful of this rule, we can render service even “to magistrates and powers,” after the example of the patriarchs and the other forefathers, who obeyed idolatrous kings up to the confine of idolatry. Hence arose, very lately, a dispute whether a servant of God should take the administration of any dignity or power, if he be able, whether by some special grace, or by adroitness, to keep himself intact from every species of idolatry; after the example that both Joseph and Daniel, clean from idolatry, administered both dignity and power in the livery and purple of the prefecture of entire Egypt or Babylonia. And so let us grant that it is possible for any one to succeed in moving, in whatsoever office, under the mere name of the office, neither sacrificing nor lending his authority to sacrifices; not farming out victims; not assigning to others the care of temples; not looking after their tributes; not giving spectacles at his own or the public charge, or presiding over the giving them; making proclamation or edict for no solemnity; not even taking oaths: moreover (what comes under the head of power), neither sitting in judgment on any one’s life or character, for you might bear with his judging about money; neither condemning nor fore-condemning; binding no one, imprisoning or torturing no one—if it is credible that all this is possible.

Butch5
May 10th 2010, 02:17 AM
Police officers are out there keeping our communities safe, keeping drunk drivers off the road so they don't kill people, arresting thieves that try to steal your things, locking up drug dealers that are trying to get your kids hooked, and keeping sex offenders away from your children. They are killed everyday doing this for us. They do a great service and here we are saying that Christians shouldn't be policemen. Sounds like a noble profession to me. I would rather be dealing with a Christian cop than a crooked one.

It may be a noble profession from man's standpoint, but it causes one to violate the commands of Christ.

Slug1
May 10th 2010, 02:39 AM
I personaly believe voting is a waste of time! God says He ordained the government that exists, I believe Him.

He does this by the hand of people who vote dude...

He doesn't come out of heaven and stand before the person who He wants and points at them. He moves voters to vote for the one He wants...

Cept not many are listening and vote for who they want or not many are listening and don't vote at all for the one He wants.

Butch5
May 10th 2010, 03:21 AM
He does this by the hand of people who vote dude...

He doesn't come out of heaven and stand before the person who He wants and points at them. He moves voters to vote for the one He wants...

Cept not many are listening and vote for who they want or not many are listening and don't vote at all for the one He wants.

Is that how Pharaoh came to power?

ThyWordIsTruth
May 10th 2010, 09:15 AM
Act 13:7 He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.
Act 13:8 But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.
Act 13:9 But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him
Act 13:10 and said, "You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?
Act 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time." Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand.
Act 13:12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.

Act 10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort,
Act 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

So what are people like Sergius Paulus and Cornelius to do? Do they have to quit their jobs and beg?

I'm quite wary of this doctrine because it sound exactly like what the Pharisees were doing, adding man's laws to God's Laws and putting unnecessary burdens on people's shoulders that God never intended. Scriptures never told us anything about Peter telling Cornelius to quit nor did Scriptures record anything regarding Paul telling Sergius Paulus to quit his job:

Mat 23:4 They (the Pharisees and Scribes) tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.


Daniel and Joseph were specifically put there by God, and they were under a different covenant. If you can produce Scripture showing anyone today who has been directly appointed by God to serve the Government I might be willing to change my position. Why do you seek to find individuals form the old covenant, instead of the new? However, Tertullian answers you question.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Chap. XVII.—The Cases of Servants and Other Officials. What Offices a Christian Man May Hold. But what shall believing servants or children do? officials likewise, when attending on their lords, or patrons, or superiors, when sacrificing? Well, if any one shall have handed the wine to a sacrificer, nay, if by any 72 single word necessary or belonging to a sacrifice he shall have aided him, he will be held to be a minister of idolatry. Mindful of this rule, we can render service even “to magistrates and powers,” after the example of the patriarchs and the other forefathers, who obeyed idolatrous kings up to the confine of idolatry. Hence arose, very lately, a dispute whether a servant of God should take the administration of any dignity or power, if he be able, whether by some special grace, or by adroitness, to keep himself intact from every species of idolatry; after the example that both Joseph and Daniel, clean from idolatry, administered both dignity and power in the livery and purple of the prefecture of entire Egypt or Babylonia. And so let us grant that it is possible for any one to succeed in moving, in whatsoever office, under the mere name of the office, neither sacrificing nor lending his authority to sacrifices; not farming out victims; not assigning to others the care of temples; not looking after their tributes; not giving spectacles at his own or the public charge, or presiding over the giving them; making proclamation or edict for no solemnity; not even taking oaths: moreover (what comes under the head of power), neither sitting in judgment on any one’s life or character, for you might bear with his judging about money; neither condemning nor fore-condemning; binding no one, imprisoning or torturing no one—if it is credible that all this is possible.

Slug1
May 10th 2010, 11:34 AM
Is that how Pharaoh came to power?Wasn't that cultures way... by bloodline way back then? Also, what god or gods did that culture worship? So right there, they are deaf to God.

BTW... what does Pharaoh have to do with today's process of voting? We, see God using many ways of electing those He wants... by pointing out leaders to prophets, Samual led to David is an example. Or, not that this was political but we see an Apostle chosen by lots... what a hoot!!! Hahahaha, I can imagine that making your head explode if you were there :lol:

Anyway... what about how Pharaoh came to power?

Strange question dude :hmm:

notuptome
May 10th 2010, 12:46 PM
Christians have a duty to be involved in government. There was a time in this country when if a man was running for office the newspaper would print his religious affiliations and associations for all to see. The country felt it important to know if the man running for office was of good moral character and trustworthy. Not until JFK did we even have a catholic president. Would we not be better off today if we still did a careful examination of the candidates character instead of listening to the promises of how much he can give us from the government coffers?

If a Christian is to be light and he is, he must not be hidden under a bushel. If Christians do not stand up for the truth who will?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 02:20 AM
Act 13:7 He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.
Act 13:8 But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.
Act 13:9 But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him
Act 13:10 and said, "You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?
Act 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time." Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand.
Act 13:12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.

Act 10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort,
Act 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

So what are people like Sergius Paulus and Cornelius to do? Do they have to quit their jobs and beg?

I'm quite wary of this doctrine because it sound exactly like what the Pharisees were doing, adding man's laws to God's Laws and putting unnecessary burdens on people's shoulders that God never intended. Scriptures never told us anything about Peter telling Cornelius to quit nor did Scriptures record anything regarding Paul telling Sergius Paulus to quit his job:

Mat 23:4 They (the Pharisees and Scribes) tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.

You are correct, nothing is recorded. So, what do we do? Do we assume that both Peter and Paul or other disciples went on to explain the doctrines of Christ to these men? Do we think they just left them and said nothing more? Do we think they told them it was OK to continue in the vocation knowing that these were contrary to what Christ had commanded? How does Cornelius wield the sword when Christ said love you enemies? How does Sergius Paulus, pet men in prison when Christ said, judge not? It seems to me the most logical thing to conclude is that Peter, Paul or some other disciple taught these men the teachings of Christ. However, that is an assumption not Scripture. But so is permission from silence, since nothing is recorded, we don't know what was said therefore these passage will not prove or disprove whether one can serve or not, in the government and the military.

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 02:27 AM
Wasn't that cultures way... by bloodline way back then? Also, what god or gods did that culture worship? So right there, they are deaf to God.

BTW... what does Pharaoh have to do with today's process of voting? We, see God using many ways of electing those He wants... by pointing out leaders to prophets, Samual led to David is an example. Or, not that this was political but we see an Apostle chosen by lots... what a hoot!!! Hahahaha, I can imagine that making your head explode if you were there :lol:

Anyway... what about how Pharaoh came to power?

Strange question dude :hmm:

My point was simply that not all governments are elected. It is only a recent thing that governments are elected. Most have been by bloodshed. For instance let's a Christian votes for a candidate and that candidate votes on a bill to support abortion, does that Christian bear any guilt? I don't know, but I do know that I don't want to be in that position where I might have to bear guilt before God because as a Christian I should not have been involved in the kingdom of darkness.

dan
May 11th 2010, 06:20 AM
My point was simply that not all governments are elected. It is only a recent thing that governments are elected. Most have been by bloodshed. For instance let's a Christian votes for a candidate and that candidate votes on a bill to support abortion, does that Christian bear any guilt? I don't know, but I do know that I don't want to be in that position where I might have to bear guilt before God because as a Christian I should not have been involved in the kingdom of darkness.

...With power and won't use it?

You have the power to do good for your neighbors and you won't?

If a man pretends to be pro-life and then changes, don't you think God knows which way, and why, you voted for him?

RockSolid
May 11th 2010, 12:41 PM
It may be a noble profession from man's standpoint, but it causes one to violate the commands of Christ.

So we should just abolish law enforcement and let crime run rampant?

Firefighter
May 11th 2010, 12:57 PM
Police officers are out there keeping our communities safe, keeping drunk drivers off the road so they don't kill people, arresting thieves that try to steal your things, locking up drug dealers that are trying to get your kids hooked, and keeping sex offenders away from your children. They are killed everyday doing this for us. They do a great service and here we are saying that Christians shouldn't be policemen. Sounds like a noble profession to me. I would rather be dealing with a Christian cop than a crooked one.


It may be a noble profession from man's standpoint, but it causes one to violate the commands of Christ.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Slug1
May 11th 2010, 01:00 PM
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.I have this tattooed to my arm in a 1/2 sleeve... literally. The scripture is very important in my life and my obedience to surrendering my life both spiritually and physically to God, due to the path He led me in the military for 21 years and as a servant to Him by faith. It's sad how the enemy burdens and binds people with pacifism.

TrustingFollower
May 11th 2010, 02:51 PM
Well, maybe not every position in the government , I am using the term in a general sense. To be more specific I am referring to positions which would cause a Christian to choose between Christ and their position. For instance, things like policy making and the like. Suppose you were mayor of your city, you would be over the chief of police, you may be put into a position where you would have to choose the out come of a situation. Let's say there was a bank robbery and their were hostages, you might be put in a position where you would have to order someone to open fire on the bank robbers, which would go against Christ's command. I know this is a rather extreme example, however, there are many everyday examples such as a police officer who may have to use force against someone. You may be a prison guard, or parole officer, you may be in positions over these people giving the orders, and so on. I mean I guess if you were a garbage collector or a Postal worker or something along that line you wouldn't have to compromise.

If we are citizens in the kingodm of God what part do we have in the kingdoms of this world? Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world.

Being a postal worker is no more honorable than other job. Satan uses them to deliver all sorts of item that bind men away from God. As a postal worker would you deliver the porn magazines that get mailed everyday or would you refuse to make the delivery and lose your job and possibly be guilty of committing a crime for not delivering the mail? In every profession there is sin involved whether it is private sector or government employment.

Yes we are to be in the world, but not of it. That does not mean we are to close ourselves off from the rest of the world. We have to take part in this world in order to the light to this dark world. It is called the great commission. We just have to keep our eyes focused on Christ in what we do and make a difference for Christ.

Slug1
May 11th 2010, 03:12 PM
My point was simply that not all governments are elected. It is only a recent thing that governments are elected. Most have been by bloodshed. For instance let's a Christian votes for a candidate and that candidate votes on a bill to support abortion, does that Christian bear any guilt? I don't know, but I do know that I don't want to be in that position where I might have to bear guilt before God because as a Christian I should not have been involved in the kingdom of darkness.Butch... this is a what if so I will reply with a what if...

What if God prompts you to give $10 to a homeless person on the street, you even talk to them about God, pray with them and then they leave to go to the store and buy food with the $10 you gave them. On the way to the store, they look over their shoulder to see if you are still there and since you are out of sight, they go to the liquier store instead and in drinking to get drunk... they are sinning. I'll push this what if... so drunk, it kills them.

You read about it in the paper, varifiy it was the homeless person you were prompted to give the money to from the picture and when you read the article, the fact he paid for the booze with a $10 bill and the time period, informs you he bought the booze a few minutes after you separated and he was found dead, 6 hours later. Laying right where you saw them and talked with them.

Will the enemies attack upon that homeless person and their choice to buy the booze cause you to never again listen to God's voice and give to the poor?

I would rather not only hear the will of God but also be obedient and since this is a fallen world, not allow it's fallen state and those who the enemy does use to stop me from being obedient to God.

You said:


does that Christian bear any guilt? I don't know, but I do know that I don't want to be in that position where I might have to bear guilt before God because as a Christian I should not have been involved in the kingdom of darkness.Butch... guilt is of the enemy dude... it binds you and through guilt, he keeps people bound. He has a loophole also to keep Christian's bound... make them avoid obedience to God as anyone who is led by God to vote, doesn't because of the reason you stated.

As a Christian, if you are obedient to His will and His voice and you do all He tells you to do.... there is no condemnation. Even when other Christians condemn you for your obedience to God when their bondage blinds them to your obedience to God's will.

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 10:02 PM
I have this tattooed to my arm in a 1/2 sleeve... literally. The scripture is very important in my life and my obedience to surrendering my life both spiritually and physically to God, due to the path He led me in the military for 21 years and as a servant to Him by faith. It's sad how the enemy burdens and binds people with pacifism.

Burdens people with pacifism? Why do you suppose He is called the Prince of Peace?

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 10:06 PM
Butch... this is a what if so I will reply with a what if...

What if God prompts you to give $10 to a homeless person on the street, you even talk to them about God, pray with them and then they leave to go to the store and buy food with the $10 you gave them. On the way to the store, they look over their shoulder to see if you are still there and since you are out of sight, they go to the liquor store instead and in drinking to get drunk... they are sinning. I'll push this what if... so drunk, it kills them.

You read about it in the paper, verify it was the homeless person you were prompted to give the money to from the picture and when you read the article, the fact he paid for the booze with a $10 bill and the time period, informs you he bought the booze a few minutes after you separated and he was found dead, 6 hours later. Laying right where you saw them and talked with them.

Will the enemies attack upon that homeless person and their choice to buy the booze cause you to never again listen to God's voice and give to the poor?

I would rather not only hear the will of God but also be obedient and since this is a fallen world, not allow it's fallen state and those who the enemy does use to stop me from being obedient to God.

You said:

Butch... guilt is of the enemy dude... it binds you and through guilt, he keeps people bound. He has a loophole also to keep Christian's bound... make them avoid obedience to God as anyone who is led by God to vote, doesn't because of the reason you stated.

As a Christian, if you are obedient to His will and His voice and you do all He tells you to do.... there is no condemnation. Even when other Christians condemn you for your obedience to God when their bondage blinds them to your obedience to God's will.


Slug1,

It is not a sin to give money to a homeless person. It is a sin to violate the commands of Christ.

When I was referring to guilt I was not referring to the feelings of guilty. I was referring to responsibility.

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 10:14 PM
Being a postal worker is no more honorable than other job. Satan uses them to deliver all sorts of item that bind men away from God. As a postal worker would you deliver the porn magazines that get mailed everyday or would you refuse to make the delivery and lose your job and possibly be guilty of committing a crime for not delivering the mail? In every profession there is sin involved whether it is private sector or government employment.

Yes we are to be in the world, but not of it. That does not mean we are to close ourselves off from the rest of the world. We have to take part in this world in order to the light to this dark world. It is called the great commission. We just have to keep our eyes focused on Christ in what we do and make a difference for Christ.

Being in the world does not mean partaking of it. If you are a citizen in God's kingdom what part do you have in the kingdom of darkness? To answer your question I would quit the job rather than deliver pornography. The great commission does not involve being "IN" the world. We are to take the love of Christ to the world, we are not become involved in it. If one holds office they are unequally yoked with unbelievers. something that Paul tells us not to do. They must swear an oath, something Jesus tells us not to do depending on the office, they may be required to take a life, something Jesus tells us not to do, or they may have to sit in judgment on another's life or character, something Jesus tells us not to do. I could on, but I think it is clear that to hold office in the kingdom of darkness is something that Christians should have no part in.

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 10:15 PM
So we should just abolish law enforcement and let crime run rampant?

No, leave it to the world. God ordains that powers that exist He will take care of it.

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 10:17 PM
...With power and won't use it?

You have the power to do good for your neighbors and you won't?

If a man pretends to be pro-life and then changes, don't you think God knows which way, and why, you voted for him?

The point is that the Christian has no part in the kingdom of darkness.

Firefighter
May 11th 2010, 10:21 PM
Is it your contention that all members of the government are "in the kingdom of darkness"?

TrustingFollower
May 11th 2010, 10:22 PM
Being in the world does not mean partaking of it. If you are a citizen in God's kingdom what part do you have in the kingdom of darkness? To answer your question I would quit the job rather than deliver pornography. The great commission does not involve being "IN" the world. We are to take the love of Christ to the world, we are not become involved in it. If one holds office they are unequally yoked with unbelievers. something that Paul tells us not to do. They must swear an oath, something Jesus tells us not to do depending on the office, they may be required to take a life, something Jesus tells us not to do, or they may have to sit in judgment on another's life or character, something Jesus tells us not to do. I could on, but I think it is clear that to hold office in the kingdom of darkness is something that Christians should have no part in.

Do you think you would be excused from jury duty just because you are a Christian? With jury duty you are judging people and taking an oath. I would love to be able to earn a living without having to partake in dealing with the kingdom of darkness as you put it, but reality is no one can. I can however be light in the profession I do and an example to the world. Reality is we have to live here and the same way the apostles had to work while spreading the gospel, so do we have to work as we do our part of spreading the gospel.

RockSolid
May 11th 2010, 10:48 PM
Last question for me because I feel like I'm piling on and I don't want to do that. Don't public school teachers work for the state or local government? Should a Christian be a math or english teacher in a public school?

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 10:56 PM
Last question for me because I feel like I'm piling on and I don't want to do that. Don't public school teachers work for the state or local government? Should a Christian be a math or english teacher in a public school?

If one can serve without compromising Christ's commands there is no problem. It is when one must break the commands of Christ that the problem arises. The issue is not working for the government per se, the issue is that in most positions in government one is forced to break Christ's commands or quit the Job.

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 11:05 PM
Do you think you would be excused from jury duty just because you are a Christian? With jury duty you are judging people and taking an oath. I would love to be able to earn a living without having to partake in dealing with the kingdom of darkness as you put it, but reality is no one can. I can however be light in the profession I do and an example to the world. Reality is we have to live here and the same way the apostles had to work while spreading the gospel, so do we have to work as we do our part of spreading the gospel.

Working is not the problem, it is when one must compromise the teachings and commands of Christ. If I was called to sit on a jury I would inform them that I would not judge a man nor take an oath. I think most likely I would be dismissed as neither side would want me as a juror. The point that I am making is that Christians are so enmeshed with the world and don't even realize it, yet the Scriptures tell us not to be. I am merely trying to point out that much if not most of what we do is "IN" the world. I have been moving to remove myself from the things of the world because I see it in the commands of Christ. When I see how the Ante-Nicene church understood the teachings of Christ and the apostles I realized that I was not living according to those teachings. Can you tell a Christian from a non Christian? It is very hard if not impossible toe tell the difference unless you ask. This is not how it was in the beginning.

Butch5
May 11th 2010, 11:07 PM
Is it your contention that all members of the government are "in the kingdom of darkness"?

It is my contention that all who are outside of Christ are in the kingdom of darkness. If a Christian serves in the government that does make them a member of the kingdom of darkness, they are merely participating in it.

notuptome
May 11th 2010, 11:21 PM
It is my contention that all who are outside of Christ are in the kingdom of darkness. If a Christian serves in the government that does make them a member of the kingdom of darkness, they are merely participating in it.
We are to go into all the world with the gospel message. Does that not include the kingdom of darkness of the government? You shop for food in the local market is the market Christian? Are there unsaved persons in the food market? Our Lord ate with publicans and sinners yet He had no sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
May 11th 2010, 11:25 PM
So the government is the kingdom of darkness???

RockSolid
May 11th 2010, 11:30 PM
If one can serve without compromising Christ's commands there is no problem. It is when one must break the commands of Christ that the problem arises. The issue is not working for the government per se, the issue is that in most positions in government one is forced to break Christ's commands or quit the Job.

Thanks for your honesty, I will think about everything you have said.

Butch5
May 12th 2010, 01:19 AM
Thanks for your honesty, I will think about everything you have said.


You're welcome, thanks for the conversation!

Butch5
May 12th 2010, 01:21 AM
So the government is the kingdom of darkness???

The governments of this world are. All the kingdoms of this world are in the kingdom of darkness. Do you know of another kingdom other than the two?

Firefighter
May 12th 2010, 01:24 AM
So God ordains various "kingdoms of darkness"???

David's kingdom was a "kingdom of darkness"???

Butch5
May 12th 2010, 01:24 AM
We are to go into all the world with the gospel message. Does that not include the kingdom of darkness of the government? You shop for food in the local market is the market Christian? Are there unsaved persons in the food market? Our Lord ate with publicans and sinners yet He had no sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Roger,

Have you been following the thread? I did not say we were not to go into the world, I said we are not to be of the world. If we are partaking in the kingdoms of darkness we are of the world. Let me ask you a question, do you plan on voting in the next election in Russia?

The Mighty Sword
May 12th 2010, 03:14 AM
The point is that the Christian has no part in the kingdom of darkness.

Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh(world), with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

GOD has placed everyone where they are at for a reason for his glory and he will take a tragedy and make it triumphant.

ThyWordIsTruth
May 12th 2010, 08:12 AM
Butch,
I was thinking about this and something came to mind.

We tend to think of the new and old covenants as totally different covenants where totally different standards of moral practice is required. However when we examine the Scriptures in more detail, I find that this isn't so.

When Jesus came, he perfected the sacrifice so we no longer have to give sacrifices for our sins. This is one aspect that has changed, along with the ceremonial rules because by Christ's death we all have direct access to God and not through priests, and we're made clean by regeneration and not by ceremonial washings.

But where moral conduct is concerned, Jesus was merely giving greater clarity and expounding on the same Old Testament commandments and the true interpretation of them, which people have not properly understood.

I give a few examples.

One is on loving your enemies. The OT has never taught anything different:

Exo 23:4 "If you meet your enemy's ox or his donkey going astray, you shall bring it back to him.
Exo 23:5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it with him.

Thus in the NT Jesus further expounded on this and taught:

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Doesn't the OT laws teach the same thing? We are not to just love those who love us.

Even in the OT, the Jews were taught to love their enemies. The Law never taught anyone to "hate those who hate you", that was the Pharisee's interpretation. Jesus was expounding on the Law, there is no change.

Here's another one:
Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

The Pharisees have misinterpreted the OT Laws to become a kind of outward righteousness by works obedience without concern of the heart's motives. Jesus wasn't teaching anything new, it was all in the OT all along.

If we just take a look at the 10 commandments, it is ALL about love. Love for God, love for men, exactly as Jesus said:

#1: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; Do not have any other gods before me.

- if you truly loved God, you will be loyal to Him.

#2: You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

- if you truly loved God, you will be faithful to Him.

#3: You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

- if you truly loved God, you will show Him proper respect and reverence.

#4: Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

- if you truly loved God, you will dedicate time aside alone for Him

#5: Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

- if you truly loved men, you will not be ungrateful. Love submits itself to authority, love is obedient.

#6: You shall not murder.

- love does not harm, but seeks the good of others

#7: You shall not commit adultery.

- love is faithful and not self-seeking. It does not harm what belongs to others or seek to defile what belongs to others.

#8: You shall not steal.
- love is not selfish, it is selfless

#9: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- love rejoices in the truth and does no harm to others

#10: You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
- love is not self seeking. It seeks the welfare of others, not our own.

As we can see, Christ was merely giving clarity to God's standards laid down in the OT. There is no change of moral standards.

As the woman at the well said:
Joh 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things."

And He did. I thus suspect we can look to the OT for issues such as self-defense and others to get an idea of God's standards and what He determines to be right or wrong. God's moral standards and requirements of us doesn't change across the OT to the NT I believe. Jesus merely gave more clarity of what God really expects out of us, but these same things were taught in the OT all along.

Thus if God permitted something or commanded something in the OT, I believe it is not morally wrong. The same goes for serving in governmnent, the police, the military and whatever else.

Unless we think there's been a change of standards across the OT to the NT, which I don't. I'm not dogmatic, but this is my sincere belief, am willing to listen to your views on this, whether or not the morality God expects of us has really changed from the OT to the NT. I think this discussion hinges on this understanding.

Dugdeep
May 12th 2010, 12:45 PM
Butch,
I was thinking about this and something came to mind.

We tend to think of the new and old covenants as totally different covenants where totally different standards of moral practice is required. However when we examine the Scriptures in more detail, I find that this isn't so.

When Jesus came, he perfected the sacrifice so we no longer have to give sacrifices for our sins. This is one aspect that has changed, along with the ceremonial rules because by Christ's death we all have direct access to God and not through priests, and we're made clean by regeneration and not by ceremonial washings.

But where moral conduct is concerned, Jesus was merely giving greater clarity and expounding on the same Old Testament commandments and the true interpretation of them, which people have not properly understood.

I give a few examples.

One is on loving your enemies. The OT has never taught anything different:

Exo 23:4 "If you meet your enemy's ox or his donkey going astray, you shall bring it back to him.
Exo 23:5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it with him.

Thus in the NT Jesus further expounded on this and taught:

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Doesn't the OT laws teach the same thing? We are not to just love those who love us.

Even in the OT, the Jews were taught to love their enemies. The Law never taught anyone to "hate those who hate you", that was the Pharisee's interpretation. Jesus was expounding on the Law, there is no change.

Here's another one:
Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

The Pharisees have misinterpreted the OT Laws to become a kind of outward righteousness by works obedience without concern of the heart's motives. Jesus wasn't teaching anything new, it was all in the OT all along.

If we just take a look at the 10 commandments, it is ALL about love. Love for God, love for men, exactly as Jesus said:

#1: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; Do not have any other gods before me.

- if you truly loved God, you will be loyal to Him.

#2: You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

- if you truly loved God, you will be faithful to Him.

#3: You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

- if you truly loved God, you will show Him proper respect and reverence.

#4: Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

- if you truly loved God, you will dedicate time aside alone for Him

#5: Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

- if you truly loved men, you will not be ungrateful. Love submits itself to authority, love is obedient.

#6: You shall not murder.

- love does not harm, but seeks the good of others

#7: You shall not commit adultery.

- love is faithful and not self-seeking. It does not harm what belongs to others or seek to defile what belongs to others.

#8: You shall not steal.
- love is not selfish, it is selfless

#9: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- love rejoices in the truth and does no harm to others

#10: You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
- love is not self seeking. It seeks the welfare of others, not our own.

As we can see, Christ was merely giving clarity to God's standards laid down in the OT. There is no change of moral standards.

As the woman at the well said:
Joh 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things."

And He did. I thus suspect we can look to the OT for issues such as self-defense and others to get an idea of God's standards and what He determines to be right or wrong. God's moral standards and requirements of us doesn't change across the OT to the NT I believe. Jesus merely gave more clarity of what God really expects out of us, but these same things were taught in the OT all along.

Thus if God permitted something or commanded something in the OT, I believe it is not morally wrong. The same goes for serving in governmnent, the police, the military and whatever else.

Unless we think there's been a change of standards across the OT to the NT, which I don't. I'm not dogmatic, but this is my sincere belief, am willing to listen to your views on this, whether or not the morality God expects of us has really changed from the OT to the NT. I think this discussion hinges on this understanding.

Is obedience still the key though?

Slug1
May 12th 2010, 01:55 PM
The governments of this world are. All the kingdoms of this world are in the kingdom of darkness. Do you know of another kingdom other than the two?Then why does God call them and all who serve in them... Ministers of God? Why are the ones obedient to God, used by Him to bring His wrath against those who do evil which does include other governments and those who serve in these disobedient governments?

I still don't understand why you call what God uses today to avenge the weak (which includes you) and bring His wrath against the evil doers... so negetively. God calls those obedient to Him, HIS Minister's of God... they SERVE Him!

Firefighter
May 12th 2010, 02:00 PM
Then why does God call them and all who serve in them... Ministers of God? Why are the ones obedient to God, used by Him to bring His wrath against those who do evil which does include other governments and those who serve in these disobedient governments?


Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

ThyWordIsTruth
May 13th 2010, 08:33 AM
Is obedience still the key though?

Obedience is the key to what? If you're thinking salvation, well, obedience has never been the key, even in the OT.

The key has always been faith.

Hab 2:4 "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Yet true faith produces love for God, which is the only acceptable motivation for obedience.

Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Butch5
May 16th 2010, 03:20 AM
Then why does God call them and all who serve in them... Ministers of God?

A Minister of God is one that serves His purpose. Pharaoh served the purpose that God had for him. As did many evil kings. A Minister of God does not have to be one who loves Him.



Why are the ones obedient to God, used by Him to bring His wrath against those who do evil which does include other governments and those who serve in these disobedient governments?

I don't see in the NT where God uses those who are Christians to bring wrath on anyone.


I still don't understand why you call what God uses today to avenge the weak (which includes you) and bring His wrath against the evil doers... so negatively. God calls those obedient to Him, HIS Minister's of God... they SERVE Him!

As I said, a minister of God does not have to be one who love Him, it can be but does not have to be. Paul called the Roman government a minister of God, sure the Romans were not Christians.

Slug1
May 16th 2010, 03:22 AM
A Minister of God is one that serves His purpose. Pharaoh served the purpose that God had for him. As did many evil kings. A Minister of God does not have to be one who loves Him.




I don't see in the NT where God uses those who are Christians to bring wrath on anyone.



As I said, a minister of God does not have to be one who love Him, it can be but does not have to be. Paul called the Roman government a minister of God, sure the Romans were not Christians.

Cornelius was and the faithful centurion was... others can be also.

Do you actually need to read more in the Bible to be convinced that any faithful to God can be a Minister of God...? I mean, how many examples does God have to give you?

Butch5
May 16th 2010, 05:57 PM
Cornelius was and the faithful centurion was... others can be also.

Do you actually need to read more in the Bible to be convinced that any faithful to God can be a Minister of God...? I mean, how many examples does God have to give you?

To be a minister of God does not require one to be in the military. Anyone who does God's will can be a minister of God.

Here is why your argument does not work, you assume that Cornelius and the Centurion continued in the military after they were saved, however, the Bible does not tell us what happened to them.

Slug1
May 17th 2010, 04:01 PM
To be a minister of God does not require one to be in the military. Anyone who does God's will can be a minister of God.Butch, let me refresh your memory of what "type" of Minister of God we're talking about...

Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Ya know... the type that God uses to bring His wrath to the evil doers!


Here is why your argument does not work, you assume that Cornelius and the Centurion continued in the military after they were saved, however, the Bible does not tell us what happened to them.Not gonna debate this again with you... they ARE in service while God DOES use them as an example for us all.... that God will use those in military service who are faithful to Him.

I can read the scripture to you if you'd like...

Again... you just stated the Bible doesn't tell us of their future... so you're opinion in based on what isn't said in the Bible... so who's opinion is based on silence?

Elijah Lau
May 17th 2010, 06:39 PM
some rules for understanding truth from bible:

do not absolutize subjective truth.
do not subjectify absolute truth.

if involving in government is an absolute wrong deed, it will be written clearly in the bible.

if a politician leader is a true christian, he can make the laws ACCORDING to biblical teaching.
if a politician leader is a non-christian and evil-minded, he can make the laws AGAINST to biblical teaching. (approve abortion, gay marriage, not allow the preaching of gospel etc)

If someone really wish to become a politician, then his motive is very critical to judge whether it is a right move or wrong move.


==============================

The government is a group of politicians, they are still human being, need gospel and salvation.

[John 17:15 ]I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

We are in the world, but not of the world, to bring the people of world to Jesus.

======================================

What is politic? People lead people.
Which is better, good people to lead or evil minded people to lead?

dan
May 18th 2010, 06:23 AM
The point is that the Christian has no part in the kingdom of darkness.

...I disagree.

The Second Greatest Commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.

Your vote gives you the power to attempt to show love to your neighbor, and you should use it, IMO.

Butch5
May 18th 2010, 10:30 PM
...I disagree.

The Second Greatest Commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.

Your vote gives you the power to attempt to show love to your neighbor, and you should use it, IMO.

I don't use it, I have no interest in voting for things in the kingdom of darkness. I belong to the kingdom of God, Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. If the kingdom I belong to is not of this world then what part am I to have in it. Love you neighbor as yourself does not apply being in the government. Christians are to love everyone, however, that does not require that I partake in the world system

Butch5
May 18th 2010, 10:58 PM
Butch, let me refresh your memory of what "type" of Minister of God we're talking about...

Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Ya know... the type that God uses to bring His wrath to the evil doers!

Not gonna debate this again with you... they ARE in service while God DOES use them as an example for us all.... that God will use those in military service who are faithful to Him.

I can read the scripture to you if you'd like...

Again... you just stated the Bible doesn't tell us of their future... so you're opinion in based on what isn't said in the Bible... so who's opinion is based on silence?

There is no need for you to read the Scriptures to me as you reject them. I have presented Jesus' command to you and you have rejected it in favor of you own misinterpretation of a statement that Paul made. Jesus made a clear statement "Love your enemies." You have ignored this Scripture time and again. Instead you have clung to Romans 13 which you have taken completely out of context, given your own interpretation and presented to support you claims. As has been pointed out, when Paul made that statement there were "NO" Christians is government, any government. Paul was not speaking of Christians in this passage, the "Minister of God" that he spoke of was the heathen Roman government, there is absolutely nothing intimating that this passage deals with Christians, yet you chosen to randomly apply it to Christians in government completely outside of the context that Paul made the statement in.

I have asked you to present a single Passage of Scripture from the NT showing that it was OK to be a soldier, you have given me nothing, not a single passage. Yet, you claim it is OK. I gave you links to look at that explain what an argument from silence is and It appears you did not read them because, it is not I who is making the argument from silence, as I pointed out you have not given a single passage of Scripture that state it is OK to be in the military, yet you claim it is. That is an argument from silence and it is a "Logical Fallacy."

You also bring contradiction into the picture, you claim that God calls people to the military, which is the exact opposite of what Christ said. God said that when Christ came he would speak the words of God, that means that the words "Love your enemies" are the words of God himself. Yet you have God in one place telling Christians to "Lover your enemies" and in another to kill them. You have a serious problem here my friend, I don't think there is a contradiction with God, that only leaves one option, you have the doctrine wrong.

You speak of being lead by the Spirit, you have made me start to seriously doubt that, unless you can explain why the Holy Spirit would lead you to do something that was diametrically opposed to the command of Christ. Can you explain to me why the Holy Spirit would lead you into battle for the kingdom of darkness? Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would have you fight for a kingdom in the kingdom of darkness? Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world, if it were my servants would fight. What is the only way that Jesus would allow His servants to fight? It is if His kingdom was of this world, but it is not, so they don't fight.

I have given you an overwhelming amount of evidence, I showed you from Isaiah, where God said that when Christ came things would be different,.

Isaiah 42:9 ( KJV )
Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

He told of them before they came about. You have the words of the apostles, the words of Christ, yet you reject all of this for your own misinterpretation of Romans 13. I am beginning to see a pattern, we had this same issue with the threads on Spiritual gifts, you just outright rejected the words of the apostle. I really don't see any reason to continue this discussion, it seems you have an agenda are not interested in anything that goes against it.

Again, just one Scripture that says it is OK to be in the military.

Butch5
May 18th 2010, 10:59 PM
Butch,
I was thinking about this and something came to mind.

We tend to think of the new and old covenants as totally different covenants where totally different standards of moral practice is required. However when we examine the Scriptures in more detail, I find that this isn't so.

When Jesus came, he perfected the sacrifice so we no longer have to give sacrifices for our sins. This is one aspect that has changed, along with the ceremonial rules because by Christ's death we all have direct access to God and not through priests, and we're made clean by regeneration and not by ceremonial washings.

But where moral conduct is concerned, Jesus was merely giving greater clarity and expounding on the same Old Testament commandments and the true interpretation of them, which people have not properly understood.

I give a few examples.

One is on loving your enemies. The OT has never taught anything different:

Exo 23:4 "If you meet your enemy's ox or his donkey going astray, you shall bring it back to him.
Exo 23:5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it with him.

Thus in the NT Jesus further expounded on this and taught:

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Doesn't the OT laws teach the same thing? We are not to just love those who love us.

Even in the OT, the Jews were taught to love their enemies. The Law never taught anyone to "hate those who hate you", that was the Pharisee's interpretation. Jesus was expounding on the Law, there is no change.

Here's another one:
Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

The Pharisees have misinterpreted the OT Laws to become a kind of outward righteousness by works obedience without concern of the heart's motives. Jesus wasn't teaching anything new, it was all in the OT all along.

If we just take a look at the 10 commandments, it is ALL about love. Love for God, love for men, exactly as Jesus said:

#1: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; Do not have any other gods before me.

- if you truly loved God, you will be loyal to Him.

#2: You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

- if you truly loved God, you will be faithful to Him.

#3: You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

- if you truly loved God, you will show Him proper respect and reverence.

#4: Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

- if you truly loved God, you will dedicate time aside alone for Him

#5: Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

- if you truly loved men, you will not be ungrateful. Love submits itself to authority, love is obedient.

#6: You shall not murder.

- love does not harm, but seeks the good of others

#7: You shall not commit adultery.

- love is faithful and not self-seeking. It does not harm what belongs to others or seek to defile what belongs to others.

#8: You shall not steal.
- love is not selfish, it is selfless

#9: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- love rejoices in the truth and does no harm to others

#10: You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
- love is not self seeking. It seeks the welfare of others, not our own.

As we can see, Christ was merely giving clarity to God's standards laid down in the OT. There is no change of moral standards.

As the woman at the well said:
Joh 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things."

And He did. I thus suspect we can look to the OT for issues such as self-defense and others to get an idea of God's standards and what He determines to be right or wrong. God's moral standards and requirements of us doesn't change across the OT to the NT I believe. Jesus merely gave more clarity of what God really expects out of us, but these same things were taught in the OT all along.

Thus if God permitted something or commanded something in the OT, I believe it is not morally wrong. The same goes for serving in governmnent, the police, the military and whatever else.

Unless we think there's been a change of standards across the OT to the NT, which I don't. I'm not dogmatic, but this is my sincere belief, am willing to listen to your views on this, whether or not the morality God expects of us has really changed from the OT to the NT. I think this discussion hinges on this understanding.

Hi ThyWord,

I have not ignored this post, I will get back to you on it.

Slug1
May 19th 2010, 02:14 AM
Again, just one Scripture that says it is OK to be in the military.Luke 3:14

14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?”
So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.”

We have "soldiers" asking John the Baptist, who explains that it is OK to do their job with the warnings that he does give, in doing it.

In addition to this "one" scripture, we have the words of the Bible involving Jesus and various Apostles giving us examples of how God uses those who are soldiers. So the fact they are soldiers does not hinder God in any way from utilizing them. All of these examples are men with faith in Jesus or putting faith in Jesus. Today this is continued as men and women of God serve as soldiers or police or in any emergency service.

dan
May 20th 2010, 09:23 PM
I don't use it, I have no interest in voting for things in the kingdom of darkness. I belong to the kingdom of God, Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. If the kingdom I belong to is not of this world then what part am I to have in it. Love you neighbor as yourself does not apply being in the government. Christians are to love everyone, however, that does not require that I partake in the world system

...You would not feed the poor, because they are a part of the darkness?

Or do CPR, because that is just bringing the person back to the darkness?

Patching a wound is just delaying the inevitable to you, I guess?

If you don't take advantage of every opportunity to show love for those around you in need, why are you a Christian?

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 03:04 AM
Luke 3:14

14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?”
So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.”

We have "soldiers" asking John the Baptist, who explains that it is OK to do their job with the warnings that he does give, in doing it.

In addition to this "one" scripture, we have the words of the Bible involving Jesus and various Apostles giving us examples of how God uses those who are soldiers. So the fact they are soldiers does not hinder God in any way from utilizing them. All of these examples are men with faith in Jesus or putting faith in Jesus. Today this is continued as men and women of God serve as soldiers or police or in any emergency service.

Slug1, you are just repeating the same thing over and over, you have not given a single verse of Scripture that says it is OK to serve in the military. You have simply taken a few passages and given us your interpretation of them, this does not constitute a positive statement from Scripture. In addition, the interpretation you have given them is in direct opposition to the commands of Christ.

You also have not answered my question. Can you explain to me why the Holy Spirit would lead you into battle for the kingdom of darkness?

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 03:08 AM
...You would not feed the poor, because they are a part of the darkness?

Or do CPR, because that is just bringing the person back to the darkness?

Patching a wound is just delaying the inevitable to you, I guess?

If you don't take advantage of every opportunity to show love for those around you in need, why are you a Christian?

You are speaking of two different things. Jesus tells us to take care of the poor, the needy, the hungry, etc. However, he does not tell us to serve in the military, or on the police force, or in the government. These things require one to break the commands of Christ. The others mentions are fulfilling the commands of Christ.

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 03:13 AM
Slug1, you are just repeating the same thing over and over, you have not given a single verse of Scripture that says it is OK to serve in the military. You have simply taken a few passages and given us your interpretation of them, this does not constitute a positive statement from Scripture. In addition, the interpretation you have given them is in direct opposition to the commands of Christ.

Dude, you keep asking the same thing over and over.. so here's the scripture over and over.. not my problem you refuse to accept clear scripture. I'm serious, I can read it to you so you can hear the answer just like those soldiers heard the answer when John spoke. The Bible isn't silent.

We all know, based on scripture that John the Baptist will make paths "straight" to the Lord. He can't steer those soldiers the wrong way or tell them something that would hinder them from serving God or the prophesy over him would be false.

If a soldier can't serve in the military and also serve God, John would have not given them the answer that he did.

So... If a soldier who is serving in the military (the one's in v14) asks a question... what are we to do and they are told to be "content" with their wages along with the other advice... explain to me how this does not mean it's OK to be a soldier and serve God?

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 03:18 AM
Dude, you keep asking the same thing over and over.. so here's the scripture over and over.. not my problem you refuse to accept clear scripture.

We all know, based on scripture that John the Baptist will make paths "straight" to the Lord. He can't steer those soldiers the wrong way or tell them something that would hinder them from serving God or the prophesy over him would be false.

If a soldier can't serve in the military and also serve God, John would have not given them the answer that he did.

So... If a soldier who is serving in the military (the one's in v14) asks a question... what are we to do and they are told to be "content" with their wages along with the other advice... explain to me how this does not mean it's OK to be a soldier?

What you have stated is an assumption. You have no positive statement. Also, the Baptist was an OT prophet, we do not even know if Jesus had been revealed when the event that you are speaking of happened. How was John to know What Jesus would preach when He didn't even know who the Messiah was until he saw the dove descending on Him?

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 03:25 AM
What you have stated is an assumption. You have no positive statement. Also, the Baptist was an OT prophet, we do not even know if Jesus had been revealed when the event that you are speaking of happened. How was John to know What Jesus would preach when He didn't even know who the Messiah was until he saw the dove descending on Him?I don't agree with ya dude... John statement in his answer to those soldiers is crystal clear... you just won't accept it.

Look, the same Holy Spirit that inspired John's answer is the SAME Holy Spirit that inspired all of Jesus' answers... knowing who Jesus was is nothing but changing the subject and you blowing smoke (that stinks actually).

John's answer was not only clear but Jesus never countered it, why? It's because the answer can't be countered because then the Holy Spirit would have been misleading those soldiers when He inspired John to answer them and told them to be satisfied with their wages.

What does, "satisfied" with your wages, mean to you?

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 05:07 PM
I don't agree with ya dude... John statement in his answer to those soldiers is crystal clear... you just won't accept it.

Look, the same Holy Spirit that inspired John's answer is the SAME Holy Spirit that inspired all of Jesus' answers... knowing who Jesus was is nothing but changing the subject and you blowing smoke (that stinks actually).

John's answer was not only clear but Jesus never countered it, why? It's because the answer can't be countered because then the Holy Spirit would have been misleading those soldiers when He inspired John to answer them and told them to be satisfied with their wages.

What does, "satisfied" with your wages, mean to you?

Still no Scripture Slug1.

Changing the subject and blowing smoke??? I have given you Jesus' words, a clear statement "Love your enemies." The Baptist did not know the message that Jesus would preach before it was preached, He didn't even know who the Christ was until he saw the dove descending on Jesus. You are making many assumptions that you cannot prove from Scripture. You are interpreting the passage in direct opposition to the commands of Christ, and as I said you are just repeating the same thing over and over. You have no Scripture that says being in the military is OK. You have Christ's command that commands Christians to act the opposite of a soldier, and these are the words of God. It is not I who is blowing smoke.

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 05:10 PM
Still no Scripture Slug1. Luke 3:14

Do you need me to read it to you ;)

Is it missing from your Bible? :P

What does being satisfied with your wages mean to you?

RabbiKnife
May 21st 2010, 09:27 PM
That means "getting paid for work you didn't do."

I guess...

:)

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 11:47 PM
Luke 3:14

Do you need me to read it to you ;)

Is it missing from your Bible? :P

What does being satisfied with your wages mean to you?

It means to be satified with the money you are being paid.

Slug1
May 22nd 2010, 05:51 PM
It means to be satified with the money you are being paid.Progress... and when the person(s) who is asking this question is both seeking/accepting Christ AND is a soldier... does this change the meaning of your answer?

GitRDunn
May 23rd 2010, 06:10 AM
I haven't had a chance to read the rest of the thread yet, but in respoonse to the OP:

Throughout the Gospels, we see Jesus acting as an individual through private means to bring people to God, to help the poor, and to spread his message

Given that Jesus and the early Church were minorities, they were enemies of the respective governments in every country.

Nowadays, Christianity is the major world religion, and Christians make up the majority population in several nations.

I've always struggled with how we, as Christians, are supposed to deal with government since Jesus and the early Church did not do things via government, but rather, via private means.
Would Jesus be for or against universal healthcare?
I honestly don't think he would care as it really caries no bearing on a person's relationship with God.


Would Jesus be for or against censorship?
Use of just the word censorship is rather broad, but I would say in general he would be against it. We are granted our free will after all, and I think this would fall under that category.


I honestly don't know

Can anyone provide Biblical justification for the following:
1.) Should Christians be involved in government
I don't see why not. We are supposed to spread the message of Jesus and be champions for the love of God, and what better way to do this than to try and ensure that the laws of whatever country we live in fall in line with the will of God? As you said, the number of Christians has vastly grown, and a group that continues to grow cannot be a minority forever. There are many instances in the Bible where faithful followers of God were involved in government, just look at King David. Although it was not a government like the U.S.'s democratic government, he was involved nonetheless. If Christians decided not to be involved in government (i.e.- decided not to vote), I don't think we would have any right to criticize the policies of our government, let alone any others, and if this were the case, how would we have the right to be critical of unGodly actions on the part of the government?


2.) If Christians should be involved in government, is there Biblical support for the idea of a secular or religiously-motivated policies?
I think there is nearly endless support for any policies that would fall in line with the will of God and the words of the Bible. I also think you could apply many of those same scriptures to realize we should oppose unGodly laws and actions by the government. However, not everything the government does is one or the other of those, nor does everything require that the Bible be applied to it in some way; some things can not just be deemed Biblical or non-Biblical.


3.) Should Christians always obey secular government? (American Revolution, Hitler's Germany, etc.)
Always? No, not if it would mean going against the word of God. This does not mean that we always try and usurp authority, though, because while we live in this world we have to take its laws into account. If they will not affect our faith or our ability to follow God in any way, then I think we have to judge whether the laws are right or wrong (which, for most U.S. laws, I think would be either right or at the least neutral) and then decide whether we should follow them. If I were in certain countries I would probably be tempted to break some laws, however I feel most, if not all, laws in the U.S. have no reason to be broken.

Dugdeep
May 25th 2010, 07:54 PM
Slug1, you are just repeating the same thing over and over, you have not given a single verse of Scripture that says it is OK to serve in the military. You have simply taken a few passages and given us your interpretation of them, this does not constitute a positive statement from Scripture. In addition, the interpretation you have given them is in direct opposition to the commands of Christ.

You also have not answered my question. Can you explain to me why the Holy Spirit would lead you into battle for the kingdom of darkness?

These are helpful questions, but I doubt people will answer you Mr. Butch, but let's wait and see.

Slug1
May 25th 2010, 08:00 PM
These are helpful questions, but I doubt people will answer you Mr. Butch, but let's wait and see.Scripture was provided, just not accepted by him... although we did have a moment of progress in post #94 and 95. Still waiting for continued progress.

As for the leading of the Holy Spirit... as I've said in all these themed threads... it's my choice to be obedient to God's will for me, so if I'm to be a Minister of God then, yes... I am being used by God to bring His wrath the the evil doer.

It's your choice to be obedient to this if it was His will for you... you discerned it was not His will for you so you ended your service as a soldier. I was obedient until I retired and then God made it clear I will continue to serve the Minister's of God through counsel and support and prayer for them.

RabbiKnife
May 26th 2010, 01:02 PM
Was doing some reading last night.

One of the folks that sent his greetings to the church in Rome in Romans 16 is Erastus, the city administrator or city treasurer. Obviously, a minister of Satan since he worked for the government...

He must not have gotten the memo about working for the government = sin

:)

Butch5
May 26th 2010, 01:33 PM
Was doing some reading last night.

One of the folks that sent his greetings to the church in Rome in Romans 16 is Erastus, the city administrator or city treasurer. Obviously, a minister of Satan since he worked for the government...

He must not have gotten the memo about working for the government = sin

:)


Why the straw men?

Butch5
May 26th 2010, 01:36 PM
Progress... and when the person(s) who is asking this question is both seeking/accepting Christ AND is a soldier... does this change the meaning of your answer?

Slug1 didn't the baptist preach the baptism of repentance? I don't recall where the Baptist was preaching the Gospel.

Slug1
May 26th 2010, 01:41 PM
Slug1 didn't the baptist preach the baptism of repentance? I don't recall where the Baptist was preaching the Gospel.We read in scripture that the prophesy over John the Baptist is that he will make the paths to God, straight. His answer is critical to those soldiers because if by telling them to be satisfied with their pay would cause them to be "wrong" in their relationship with God... then he'd be failing in his purpose in leading people to God.

RabbiKnife
May 26th 2010, 01:56 PM
Why the straw men?

It is not a straw man.

It is completely responsive to the OP, unlike much of this thread.

Dugdeep
May 28th 2010, 09:08 PM
Scripture was provided, just not accepted by him... although we did have a moment of progress in post #94 and 95. Still waiting for continued progress.

As for the leading of the Holy Spirit... as I've said in all these themed threads... it's my choice to be obedient to God's will for me, so if I'm to be a Minister of God then, yes... I am being used by God to bring His wrath the the evil doer.

It's your choice to be obedient to this if it was His will for you... you discerned it was not His will for you so you ended your service as a soldier. I was obedient until I retired and then God made it clear I will continue to serve the Minister's of God through counsel and support and prayer for them.

Please let me know in which post, so I can read it, sorry, I didn't notice it yet?

Dugdeep
May 28th 2010, 09:21 PM
Still no Scripture Slug1.

I have given you Jesus' words, a clear statement "Love your enemies." You have no Scripture that says being in the military is OK. .

This is in a nut shell what I see Butch5 saying. No scripture has been given that says it's now ok to hate your enemy!

Vhayes
May 28th 2010, 09:51 PM
Is it loving to stand by and allow this?

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:F1Z-dNF_sYgI1M:http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/time-muslim-prisoners-in-a-serbian-detention-camp.jpg

Because we love this?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:MHjD8iW7kYVGtM:http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/karadzic415.jpg

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SezJSYswUkNY1M:http://sfinx777.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/milosevic_468x687.jpg

Or this?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:VslnpLyHe433ZM:http://pal2pal.com/BLOGEE/images/uploads/GasedKurdsKNP_468x353.jpg

Because we love this?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Eo17raZzMUD_EM:http://ironcamel.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/saddam_hussein2.jpg

Slug1
May 29th 2010, 01:36 AM
This is in a nut shell what I see Butch5 saying. No scripture has been given that says it's now ok to hate your enemy!

Dude... read the thread... I answered his question about 3 times and we even had progress till he bailed from that progression.

Had nothing to do with if it's ok to hate your enemy...

Tell me... did/does God love all those that died/will die at His hand or by the hands of those He now calls Minister's of God?

Butch5
May 29th 2010, 01:53 AM
Is it loving to stand by and allow this?

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:F1Z-dNF_sYgI1M:http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/time-muslim-prisoners-in-a-serbian-detention-camp.jpg

Because we love this?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:MHjD8iW7kYVGtM:http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/karadzic415.jpg

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SezJSYswUkNY1M:http://sfinx777.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/milosevic_468x687.jpg

Or this?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:VslnpLyHe433ZM:http://pal2pal.com/BLOGEE/images/uploads/GasedKurdsKNP_468x353.jpg

Because we love this?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Eo17raZzMUD_EM:http://ironcamel.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/saddam_hussein2.jpg

That's not the issue, the issue is do you love Christ more than all of the above? If so will you obey His commands? You asked is it loving to allow this? Abraham loved God enough to be willing to kill his own child, he was going to be obedient no matter what it cost him.

Butch5
May 29th 2010, 02:06 AM
Dude... read the thread... I answered his question about 3 times and we even had progress till he bailed from that progression.

Had nothing to do with if it's ok to hate your enemy...

Tell me... did/does God love all those that died/will die at His hand or by the hands of those He now calls Minister's of God?


I didn't bail Slug1, it is just obvious that you are not going to obey the command so what is the point in continuing. You see, you can interpret the passages however you like, but you are in rebellion to Christ's command to love your enemies if you are trying to kill them. I have pointed out the error in your reasoning time after time, yet you have ignored it. I have asked you numerous questions which are still without answer. You simply keep referring back to the passage in Luke that you have misinterpreted. You reasoning on this issue is not logical, using the same reasoning you must conclude that Paul never went to the bathroom, nor did Peter or the other apostles, since we know that this is impossible it shows that flaw in your reasoning. However, you it seems you are unwilling to acknowledge this. I have shown that Paul did not have Christians in mind when making the statement about the "Minister of God" yet you continue to apply it to Christians. Since Paul didn't apply it to Christians there is no basis for you to do so. If you do you are taking it out of context.

You know Slug1 one, in all of those discussions about the Spiritual gifts, I was beginning to wonder if there was something to what you were saying. Maybe I had been rash in my thinking, however, after the conversation in this thread and seeing the way you have tried to justify something that is clearly contrary to the commands of Jesus Christ, I am not wondering anymore about what you said in the threads on Spiritual gifts.



Can you explain to me why the Holy Spirit would lead you into battle for the kingdom of darkness?

Vhayes
May 29th 2010, 04:03 AM
Yes Butch. God allowed His own child to die because He loved us so much.

Do you think it is ok that God that we love the Kurds enough to tell Saddam to stop? Turn it around end to end - do we love Saddam enough to stop him from commiting yet more sin? Way more sin?

The Mighty Sword
May 29th 2010, 05:55 AM
Modnote:The personal attacks (and they are personal), jabs and sarcasm need to come to an end. Let's keep the peace.

Dugdeep
May 29th 2010, 07:23 AM
Dude... read the thread... I answered his question about 3 times and we even had progress till he bailed from that progression.

Had nothing to do with if it's ok to hate your enemy...

Tell me... did/does God love all those that died/will die at His hand or by the hands of those He now calls Minister's of God?

As anyone can see who reads here, Slug does not answer the question, or point to where he produced scripture to say we should disobey God's holy command to love or enemies. Slug, you can go on and on about how God loves or does not love when He sends ministers. That's NOT the point! The point IS. We are commanded to love our enemies, no matter how bad they are!
And that is what I quoted fromButch above.

Vhayes
May 29th 2010, 12:56 PM
Is it "Christian" to allow a child to misbehave, throw temper tantrums, break the dishes, kick the family dog and drown the family cat? Is that the way we demonstrate "love"? Or is it indeed more loving to tell them to stop and then, if needed, follow it up with thump therapy?

Butch5
May 29th 2010, 02:23 PM
Hi Slug1,

It appears my post was seen as a personal attack, for which I apologize. It was not my intent to offend you attack you in anyway. I was trying to point out the discrepancy between you interpretation of the Luke passage with Christ's command in Matthew.

If I have offended you please accept my apology.

The Mighty Sword
May 29th 2010, 02:25 PM
As anyone can see who reads here, Slug does not answer the question, or point to where he produced scripture to say we should disobey God's holy command to love or enemies. Slug, you can go on and on about how God loves or does not love when He sends ministers. That's NOT the point! The point IS. We are commanded to love our enemies, no matter how bad they are!
And that is what I quoted fromButch above.

Now it's obvious you have never served in the military but believe it or not people join and they defend this wonderful country you call home, in saying that here is a scripture every soldier obeys as they are commanded to do:

Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Now with that in mind This thread is Closed for Mod Review