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Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 01:03 PM
This is taken from 2 Peter 1 verse 3, and as we read further, we can see that it is as we add these things listed after verse 3 that as we add these things to our lives, they will keep us effective in our knowledge of Our Lord Jesus Christ, not our knowledge of the government, or the health system, or any soldiers. His power has given to us what we need for life. As I have read in here, some believe that it is the government, or the soldiers in some battle that save us. Sure, God can use anything or anyone He likes, but He wants to look to HIM for our life and protection, and NOT the government or the soldiers.

See verse 9, a person who excells not in these fruit is in fact NOT a Christian, therefore those trusting in governments and soldiers are not actualy carring out the commands written here in 2 Pet 1, and as indicated in verse 9, they are not Christians.

I cannot copy and paste, I hope someone can paste 2 Pet 1:1-10.

Any comments, agreements, disagreements, this is lovely meat of the word.

HisLeast
May 18th 2010, 01:11 PM
This is taken from 2 Peter 1 verse 3, and as we read further, we can see that it is as we add these things listed after verse 3 that as we add these things to our lives, they will keep us effective in our knowledge of Our Lord Jesus Christ, not our knowledge of the government, or the health system, or any soldiers. His power has given to us what we need for life. As I have read in here, some believe that it is the government, or the soldiers in some battle that save us. Sure, God can use anything or anyone He likes, but He wants to look to HIM for our life and protection, and NOT the government or the soldiers.

By "here" do you mean Bibleforums? If so, could you cite examples of people doing as you suggest?

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 01:13 PM
By "here" do you mean Bibleforums? If so, could you cite examples of people doing as you suggest?

That will take some time, I guess you have been here a lot longer, can you maybe help in this regard, or have you not read these posts where, "some" trust in governments and soldiers?

HisLeast
May 18th 2010, 01:20 PM
That will take some time, I guess you have been here a lot longer, can you maybe help in this regard, or have you not read these posts where, "some" trust in governments and soldiers?

Depends what you mean by "trust". In my time here I don't think I've seen any cases where people trust governments or soldiers for their salvation, except for maybe 1 or 2 extraordinary "manifest destiny" posters over the past 4 years. If you mean "trust" to be related to salvation, or divine influence, I just don't see it. If you mean "trust" in the general sense... that is to say trust that the parties specified do a good job at what they do, I still don't really see it. People here tend to be more suspicious of government than "trusting". Support for soldiers is pretty secure here too, so in that respect they are "trusted", but I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at.

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 01:24 PM
Depends what you mean by "trust". In my time here I don't think I've seen any cases where people trust governments or soldiers for their salvation, except for maybe 1 or 2 extraordinary "manifest destiny" posters over the past 4 years. If you mean "trust" to be related to salvation, or divine influence, I just don't see it. If you mean "trust" in the general sense... that is to say trust that the parties specified do a good job at what they do, I still don't really see it. People here tend to be more suspicious of government than "trusting". Support for soldiers is pretty secure here too, so in that respect they are "trusted", but I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at.

I didn't mean they trust for their salvation as into heaven ,but to save us here on earth. I believe we need to trust Him who has given us everything pertaining to life, as is commanded by Him, and not to trust in governments or soldiers to save us. I know this sentence can be taken out of context, so I hope people will read the O.P.

HisLeast
May 18th 2010, 01:28 PM
I didn't mean they trust for their salvation as into heaven ,but to save us here on earth. I believe we need to trust Him who has given us everything pertaining to life, as is commanded by Him, and not to trust in governments or soldiers to save us. I know this sentence can be taken out of context, so I hope people will read the O.P.

I get what you're saying. I'm just uncertain that I agree. Not specific to government, but soldiers in particular... in all of Isreal's major victories, God was trusted, but soldiers were also well armed and well trained. I don't believe trust in God means eschewing the institutions on earth we use to take care of ourselves.

Slug1
May 18th 2010, 01:29 PM
Any comments, agreements, disagreements, this is lovely meat of the word.The scripture in context is about overcoming the "lusts" of the world. If trust in government is one of your "lusts" then I understand what you're saying.

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 01:32 PM
The scripture in context is about overcoming the "lusts" of the world. If trust in government is one of your "lusts" then I understand what you're saying.

Every government on this earth is corrupt. Do you agree?

Slug1
May 18th 2010, 01:35 PM
I didn't mean they trust for their salvation as into heaven ,but to save us here on earth. I believe we need to trust Him who has given us everything pertaining to life, as is commanded by Him, and not to trust in governments or soldiers to save us. I know this sentence can be taken out of context, so I hope people will read the O.P.The Lord has provided protection through those who serve in the government. He specifically uses man to bring His wrath to the evildoers in the world... thus, you are protected.

Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

"// to you //"... this is you in this scripture that God is protecting, through/by those who are His Minister's of God.

So if you "lust" concerning this... then the scripture in your OP can be scritpure to convict one (you) of this problem. Once you are healed of this, those who God uses to protect you will continue to do so without you "lusting" about the work that God has them do for you.

Slug1
May 18th 2010, 01:37 PM
Every government on this earth is corrupt. Do you agree?I feel that all govenement has elements of corruption and do you know why?

It's because the enemy has saturated the governments with those who do not have faith in God and satan also binds people with the demon of pacifism so there are many Christian's who will not enter government and remove those corrupt elements.

In the mean time, many complain or say statements like the quote you just stated and God is trying to get people like yourself to serve in government and shine Christ and right many wrongs.

Firefighter
May 18th 2010, 01:40 PM
If your house catches on fire, are you going to trust God to put it out or are you going to call 911 (the government)?

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 01:42 PM
I feel that all govenement has elements of corruption and do you know why?

It's because the enemy has saturated the governments with those who do not have faith in God and satan also binds people with the demon of pacifism so there are many Christian's who will not enter government and remove those corrupt elements.

So, at least we agree, every government on this earth is corrupt. Why do you blame pacifism? Demons come from disobedience to God's word. It's more likely that demons have come from people not obeying 2Pet1 and surounding scriptures that demons have come.

And demons are fought by spriritual warfare, not by people in a corrupt government, what do you think about this last sentence?

Slug1
May 18th 2010, 01:43 PM
If your house catches on fire, are you going to trust God to put it out or are you going to call 911 (the government)?Don't go there... to much common sense in use of govenment through a 911 call.

Actually I think you just took my next moment of thunder :P :lol:

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 01:43 PM
If your house catches on fire, are you going to trust God to put it out or are you going to call 911 (the government)?

You miss the point, I am talking about trusting. Please stick to the O.P

HisLeast
May 18th 2010, 01:47 PM
You miss the point, I am talking about trusting. Please stick to the O.P

Then maybe a couple of us aren't understanding what you mean by "trust".

Slug1
May 18th 2010, 01:47 PM
So, at least we agree, every government on this earth is corrupt. Why do you blame pacifism? Demons come from disobedience to God's word. It's more likely that demons have come from people not obeying 2Pet1 and surounding scriptures that demons have come.

And demons are fought by spriritual warfare, not by people in a corrupt government, what do you think about this last sentence?No... I said that there are corrupt elements in government.

If there is a person who is an alcoholic in your church, maybe even 2, is your church a bunch of "drunkards"?

Anyway... a person breaking into your house...no, let's use UM's example, your house is on fire... do you call 911 or do you call all your friends to pray the fire out?

Firefighter
May 18th 2010, 01:48 PM
From the OP...


His power has given to us what we need for life. As I have read in here, some believe that it is the government, or the soldiers in some battle that save us. Sure, God can use anything or anyone He likes, but He wants to look to HIM for our life and protection, and NOT the government or the soldiers.

The government also provides protection that saves you from other dangers. I am just trying to understand if it is "OK" to trust the "corrupt" government to protect you in other things like fires. If so, what is the difference?

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 01:51 PM
Then maybe a couple of us aren't understanding what you mean by "trust".

Are you saying that if I phone you, I have no trust in God?

Firefighter
May 18th 2010, 01:52 PM
Are you saying that if I phone you, I have no trust in God?

That seems to be what you are saying...

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 01:56 PM
So, at least we agree, every government on this earth is corrupt. Why do you blame pacifism? Demons come from disobedience to God's word. It's more likely that demons have come from people not obeying 2Pet1 and surounding scriptures that demons have come.

And demons are fought by spriritual warfare, not by people in a corrupt government, what do you think about this last sentence?

To answer you Slug, you know what I am on about by you answers I can see that. My last sentence is left without a comment by you.

I say if there is an element of corruption then YES the whole institution is corrupt, as Jesus said a little bit of leven... that's all it takes.
Alchoholics is a bad example, as I know many alchoholics who haven't had a drop of that stuff in years.

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 01:57 PM
That seems to be what you are saying...

Well, I didn't say that, I asked a question, maybe answer it. If I phone you, does it mean I don't trust God?

Firefighter
May 18th 2010, 02:02 PM
Not at all. LIKEWISE, if you trust in the same government to ensure your safety and rights through the military, it doesn't mean someone doesn't trust God either. ;)

Actually, it would be trusting in God, because He plainly states that they are ministers of God to you for GOOD.

Romans 13:3-4 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

The only problem I see is that there has not been any praise "of the same' in this thread. :hmm:

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 02:08 PM
Not at all. LIKEWISE, if you trust in the same government to ensure your safety and rights through the military, it doesn't mean someone doesn't trust God either. ;)

Actually, it would be trusting in God, because He plainly states that they are ministers of God to you for GOOD.

Romans 13:3-4 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

The only problem I see is that there has not been any praise "of the same' in this thread. :hmm:

Good that we agree then, a phone call does not mean no faith. I added the soldiers in the sentence in the O.P. to clarify what I meant.
We need to see all the issues of government in here, and if the government is there for good, it need be to the good of all, both inside and outside our borders. Do you agree?

Do you mean I am not praising the government enough?

Slug1
May 18th 2010, 02:11 PM
To answer you Slug, you know what I am on about by you answers I can see that. My last sentence is left without a comment by you.

I say if there is an element of corruption then YES the whole institution is corrupt, as Jesus said a little bit of leven... that's all it takes.
Alchoholics is a bad example, as I know many alchoholics who haven't had a drop of that stuff in years.
Huh? are we talking about the world or the Body of Christ? I used the term alcoholic to clarify a problem I was making a point of... but in the Body of Christ, this problem is just another "sin". The world understands this as a "lable" and in the world that "lable" never is dropped as you just made clear as well with your statement about knowing many who have not had a drop in years. That is why the "world" can't help those bound in this sin... only assist them avoid alcohol through condition but never heal them, thus the world forever "lables" them as an alcoholic.

Anyway... yeah... the government isn't gonna do spritual warfare because it's not their job. Their job is to be used by God to protect (you) and bring God's wrath to "worldly" evil doers.

So, to the point of your OP... what is wrong with God using governments? What is your "lust" concerning God's use of governments since you brought in the scripture 1 Peter 1:3?

Vhayes
May 18th 2010, 02:16 PM
The government cannot "save" me, but it can provide for my freedoms.

A doctor cannot 'save" me but he/she can provide treatment to prolong my life here.

A fireman cannot "save" me but he can rescue me from burning in a fire and prolonging my time here.

No one that I know who counts themselves as Christian thinks any of those things are the be all and end all. Those things are in place to protect - not "save" in the sense Christians mean "save. But if God has allowed them to be put in place, then we are permitted to avail ourselves of them.

HisLeast
May 18th 2010, 02:20 PM
Are you saying that if I phone you, I have no trust in God?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply asking you to explain what you mean by "trust".

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 02:27 PM
Huh? are we talking about the world or the Body of Christ?

Anyway... yeah... the government isn't gonna do spritual warfare because it's not their job. Their job is to be used by God to protect (you) and bring God's wrath to "worldly" evil doers.

So, to the point of your OP... what is wrong with God using governments? What is your "lust" concerning God's use of governments since you brought in the scripture 1 Peter 1:3?

I said it's spiritual warfare that fights demons, not corrupt governments. Do you agree?
My point is that a little bit of yeast corrupts the whole institution. Do you agree?
I never said there was something wrong with God using governments, I said Christians need to trust God to protect them, not the government. The reason we can't trust the government is because it is corrupt. 2Pet1 adds the word corruption through lust. The governments desparatly lusts, have you noticed?



The reason why I asked you the question

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 02:28 PM
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply asking you to explain what you mean by "trust".

I feel Urbanmissionary and I clarified this above, or do we need to talk more on this?

Firefighter
May 18th 2010, 02:30 PM
But you trust the government when you dial 911...

You trust that they will answer the phone.
You trust that they will dispatch someone.
You trust that they will dispatch the right people and equipment.
You trust that the right people and equipment will show up.
You trust that once they show up, they will do their jobs.


Define trust for us...

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 02:35 PM
But you trust the government when you dial 911...

You trust that they will answer the phone.
You trust that they will dispatch someone.
You trust that they will dispatch the right people and equipment.
You trust that the right people and equipment will show up.
You trust that once they show up, they will do their jobs.


Define trust for us...

You indicated above that we agreed. Perhaps read what you wrote and get back to me.

Firefighter
May 18th 2010, 02:39 PM
You then contradicted yourself by saying this...


I said Christians need to trust God to protect them, not the government.

HisLeast
May 18th 2010, 02:39 PM
I feel Urbanmissionary and I clarified this above, or do we need to talk more on this?

uh... sorry, I must have missed that in the phone metaphor, which would make sense because I despise metaphor. How about we just outline clearly what we mean by "trust"?

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 02:40 PM
[QUOTE=Urban Missionary;2411210]But you trust the government when you dial 911...

You trust that they will answer the phone.
You trust that they will dispatch someone.
You trust that they will dispatch the right people and equipment.
You trust that the right people and equipment will show up.
You trust that once they show up, they will do their jobs.[QUOTE]


In number 22 you say if you phone it doesn't mean you do not trust in God. We need to look at; Does the government do good to those inside and outside it's borders? That's why I added the part about soldiers in the O.P.

Firefighter
May 18th 2010, 02:40 PM
You then contradicted yourself by saying this...


I said Christians need to trust God to protect them, not the government.

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 02:45 PM
uh... sorry, I must have missed that in the phone metaphor, which would make sense because I despise metaphor. How about we just outline clearly what we mean by "trust"?

I will say, i do not trust the government or the soldiers for my saftey. I define the word trust as in the english dictionary.

Now to add to this as I said in the O.P. We are called to these virtues after verse 3, and none of them are calling Christians to go to other countries and do anything violent. 2Pet1 says the opposite, ending in charity. If anyone does not have these virtues in increasing measure, they are not a Christian. See verse 9.

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 02:46 PM
You then contradicted yourself by saying this...

Please explain.

Dugdeep
May 18th 2010, 02:47 PM
You then contradicted yourself by saying this...

Please read carefully and think before you write!

Firefighter
May 18th 2010, 02:49 PM
You say "Christians need to trust God to protect them, not the government."

You then turn right around and say that you would dial 911 if you needed protection.

I don't get it. What is your definition of "trust"???

Slug1
May 18th 2010, 02:52 PM
I said it's spiritual warfare that fights demons, not corrupt governments. Do you agree?Sure because it's not their purpose.

My point is that a little bit of yeast corrupts the whole institution. Do you agree?Not with your specific statement... all in the Body of Christ is a little bit of bad yeast in one way or another. When one in sin and in leadership or in a position of teaching and left unhindered, can spread.

I never said there was something wrong with God using governments, I said Christians need to trust God to protect them, not the government. An element of His protection is through governmental agencies.

Do you put your paycheck... that money "left" over into the bank, invest this extra cash for your future, do you have a retirment plan, will you use Social Security when you are older? If so, well... your words will sound hypocritical.



The reason we can't trust the government is because it is corrupt. 2Pet1 adds the word corruption through lust. The governments desparatly lusts, have you noticed?Your scripture is on the individual level, not on a collective level such as a group.

RabbiKnife
May 18th 2010, 02:54 PM
All governments are established at the will of God.

HisLeast
May 18th 2010, 02:55 PM
I will say, i do not trust the government or the soldiers for my saftey. I define the word trust as in the english dictionary.

Now to add to this as I said in the O.P. We are called to these virtues after verse 3, and none of them are calling Christians to go to other countries and do anything violent. 2Pet1 says the opposite, ending in charity. If anyone does not have these virtues in increasing measure, they are not a Christian. See verse 9.

Then I believe your statements are far too general for me to believe. Allow me to illustrate. I don't "trust" the current US administration is being true to the principles outlined by the founding fathers concerning the role of the government. However, I do trust that many of the legislations and services provided by the government have kept me safe. Specifically, the FDA has ensured that all the medications I've used in my lifetime have been met a standard of quality to ensure I wasn't popping dried paint pills. Safety standards have also ensured that my car hasn't turned into a flaming vice clamb from the few accidents I've experienced. The EPA has ensured that swimming in Lake Michigan hasn't exposed me to unnecessary industrial pollutants.
And to bring it all back to UM's example, calling 911 has saved me from a couple situations in which my safety was jeopardized.

So in that respect, certain government services and policies are worthy of my trust, and have demonstratably contributed to my safety.

BroRog
May 18th 2010, 03:30 PM
I will say, i do not trust the government or the soldiers for my saftey. I define the word trust as in the english dictionary.

Now to add to this as I said in the O.P. We are called to these virtues after verse 3, and none of them are calling Christians to go to other countries and do anything violent. 2Pet1 says the opposite, ending in charity. If anyone does not have these virtues in increasing measure, they are not a Christian. See verse 9.I'm having difficulty understanding your perspective on 2Pet1 and how it has anything to say about the role of government in your view. I'm not saying I agree or disagree and much could be said concerning 2Pet1 and also much could be said about the role of government in the life of a believer, but as yet I can't see the connection you see between the two.

BroRog
May 18th 2010, 03:47 PM
You say "Christians need to trust God to protect them, not the government."

You then turn right around and say that you would dial 911 if you needed protection.

I don't get it. What is your definition of "trust"???As I said above, I'm not sure where Dugdeep is going with this, but I do see where he might be headed with this. As I see it, the two issues are not directly related to each other, but indirectly 2Pet1 has something to say to the issue of government.

You make a good point about dialing 911, and Hisleast also makes a good point about regulatory agencies that are intended to keep businesses honest. And 2Pet1 doesn't address this issue directly. Rather, it deals with the question, "what does it mean to be a human being and to find "Life", human fulfillment, human flourishing, etc. ?" Peter is focused on the individual man or woman of faith, summarizing the pursuit of Life (with a capital 'L') and glory through the pursuit of excellences, i.e. virtues.

If we want to pursue this discussion further and perhaps understand Dugdeep a little more, I suggest we procede under the scenario of a disaster, like Katrina for instance. What happens when Government is not around or when circumstances force us to live without government aid, or protection? And I'm not talking about apocolyptic scenarios in which we all grab our guns so as to protect our little stash of oatmeal. The same question could be asked of the next great depression. Has our people changed both ethically and morally such that our society could sustain another great depression, in which the government is unable or unwilling to help us? Do we, as a people, have the commitment to the kinds of virtues Peter has in mind such that we would rely on each other?

One could ask another question concerning the government as it pertains to Peter's word in 2Pet1. How much does the government rely on a moral and ethical population? And how much does the effectiveness of the government suffer when both the government and the governed suffer from moral ineptitude and a lack of personal virtue? How much does a democracy depend on a moral and ethical population?

Firefighter
May 18th 2010, 04:00 PM
I trust God fully.

I trust that God has given me a government that will provide for my safety.

I also trust that God has given me the talents/skills to do so if the government fails.

Butch5
May 19th 2010, 02:10 AM
I trust God fully.

I trust that God has given me a government that will provide for my safety.

I also trust that God has given me the talents/skills to do so if the government fails.

Where does the NT speak of Chrsitians protecting themselves?

EarlyCall
May 19th 2010, 02:15 AM
Every government on this earth is corrupt. Do you agree?

And yet God established these government authorities. These very same authorities by which you claim they are completely corrupt if they are at all corrupt. Do you think God was unaware of man's fallen nature and his inability to form a completely incorruptible government when God said that He has established the governing authorities? The correct answer is NO.

Further, have you noticed that God has involved man in all He has done since He created man? Did God deliver the Jews from Egypt on His own? No He did not. Was it His power alone? Yes it was, but God used Moses. Did God part the red sea alone? No He did not. Was it His power alone? Yes, but He used Moses. Did the walls of Jericho fall by God alone? No. His power alone? Yes, but He used the people to march around the walls. Get the point yet?

In WWII there were people praying against the evil forces at war and surely God intervened. But I can assure that had our armies not taken the field, God would not have moved in His power on our behalf.

Dugdeep
May 19th 2010, 11:10 AM
Sorry I've been away so long. I will try get the general picture in here and answer where I can.
At least Earlycall and Slug1 answer the question I posted, which Early call quoted immediatly above.
Slug1 says there are elements of corruption in the government, Earlycall says there is no corruption in the government. Please correct me if I have misinderstood either of you.

To go on from here, I am not saying God did not put the government there, what I am saying is that the governments He has put there are corrupt.
This is ONE of the reasons to not trust the government.

My point I added to this trusting in the government is that, particularily in the area of the soldier, see O.P. Funny how some in here immediatly jump to positions that seems like they didn't read the O.P. and they were only interested in arguing, especialy the one who was going on about contradiction, and when asked of him to show where he got this, there was silence.

The rest of the O.P. was about how we need to add these virtues to our lives, and that many British and American soldiers are NOT encouraged in the SLIGHTEST to add these virtues to their lives. I feel this is is IMPORTANT to notice, as 2Pet1 says that if we do not have these virtues and increase in them, then in fact, this is a SIGN that the person is NOT saved by the blood of the Lamb.

Another reason why this is important is that; we are called to encourage each other to these virtues, so I call all those in here to these virtues.

Dugdeep
May 19th 2010, 11:14 AM
You say "Christians need to trust God to protect them, not the government."

You then turn right around and say that you would dial 911 if you needed protection.

I don't get it. What is your definition of "trust"???

PLEASE read carefully! I DID NOT SAY I would dial 911, now I await an oppology!

Dugdeep
May 19th 2010, 11:18 AM
[QUOTE=Slug1;2411250]Sure because it's not their purpose.
QUOTE]

This above is what you said about spiritaul warfare. So we agree on this. Now to go further it is our purpose to fight the spiritual war according to Eph 6. Do you agree?

Dugdeep
May 19th 2010, 11:20 AM
Not with your specific statement... all in the Body of Christ is a little bit of bad yeast in one way or another. When one in sin and in leadership or in a position of teaching and left unhindered, can spread.
.

So you agree partialy that a little leaven corupts? Jesus said it has affect on the entire loaf, what do you think about that?

Dugdeep
May 19th 2010, 11:24 AM
An element of His protection is through governmental agencies.

Do you put your paycheck... that money "left" over into the bank, invest this extra cash for your future, do you have a retirment plan, will you use Social Security when you are older? If so, well... your words will sound hypocritical.


Your scripture is on the individual level, not on a collective level such as a group.

I am not saying this element does not exist. I am saying we need to trust God rather than man.
I have no social security, or retirement.

Yes I agree, it is on an individual level, we are called one by one. Will you respond to the call to add these virtues spoken of in the O.P. to your life?

Dugdeep
May 19th 2010, 11:28 AM
Then I believe your statements are far too general for me to believe. Allow me to illustrate. I don't "trust" the current US administration is being true to the principles outlined by the founding fathers concerning the role of the government. However, I do trust that many of the legislations and services provided by the government have kept me safe. Specifically, the FDA has ensured that all the medications I've used in my lifetime have been met a standard of quality to ensure I wasn't popping dried paint pills. Safety standards have also ensured that my car hasn't turned into a flaming vice clamb from the few accidents I've experienced. The EPA has ensured that swimming in Lake Michigan hasn't exposed me to unnecessary industrial pollutants.
And to bring it all back to UM's example, calling 911 has saved me from a couple situations in which my safety was jeopardized.

So in that respect, certain government services and policies are worthy of my trust, and have demonstratably contributed to my safety.

I read what you wrote, and ask you as I asked Slug1 in the post just above, will you add these virtues to your life, which seems to mean you will not take a call to any army? After all, this is the point that qualifies the O.P.

Dugdeep
May 19th 2010, 11:30 AM
I'm having difficulty understanding your perspective on 2Pet1 and how it has anything to say about the role of government in your view. I'm not saying I agree or disagree and much could be said concerning 2Pet1 and also much could be said about the role of government in the life of a believer, but as yet I can't see the connection you see between the two.

The connection between the two are this. Anything we do in our lives where we are around others affects them and us. Please add another verse if you feel it is appropiate.

Dugdeep
May 19th 2010, 11:33 AM
Where does the NT speak of Chrsitians protecting themselves?

I know you aren't asking me, so i trust Urban Missionary will get back to you, but I don't see anywhere commanding us to trust the government, do you?

Slug1
May 19th 2010, 11:55 AM
I am not saying this element does not exist. I am saying we need to trust God rather than man.
I have no social security, or retirement.

Yes I agree, it is on an individual level, we are called one by one. Will you respond to the call to add these virtues spoken of in the O.P. to your life?Brother, what I don't think you understand is that God has a purpose for all in His Kingdom. Some of those who are faithful (and not faithful) are used in government and in the armed forces, police forces and emergency forces all throughout the world. When God wants to protect or it's time to just do protection or says it's time for Him to kill off some evil doers, He moves those who are called Ministers of God and He will use them to destroy the evil doer.

This does not mean that those who are obedient to God are not obedient to what the scripture in your OP is all about. In fact... the sacrifice of obedience to God shows that those who are Ministers of God understand brotherly LOVE more then you or anyone who would refuse to be obedient to God in the protection of their brothers and sisters.

Evil doers are at times, in need of death and God has to do this somehow and those who are faithful are only being obedient as they are used by God to protect you from those evil doers.

Do you think that all those throughout all the Bible that God killed, that He didn't love them? It's the same today! Ya don't think that those I killed, I didn't love... that I didn't pray for their loved ones to have comfort and strength to continue in their lives? Be a Minister of God for a day... what we have to do in God's name can only be done through the strength that He gives us. If we are obedient to God and there is any moment of guilt then that moment, the enemy has gotten a claw into us and we have to call on God to remove the doubt.

Believe me, I have been on enough battlefields and in one moment I'm killing an evil doer and in the next when they have thrown down their weapon, render medical aid, feed, and protect them as well.

In the heat of battle I have been blessed to not only express my obedience to God in all extreams of obedience... from the point of willfulling knowing that I can be laying down MY LIFE for my brothers and sisters... to helping an evil doer who has surrendered and now I am protecting them. I have spread the Gospel of Christ to fellow soldiers on and off battlefields and even to those in the countries I have been sent to do battle. In the privacy of their home, many I have been free and open with about my faith in God and we discussed God. One of my translators was Christian and this helped immensly when we had opportunities to speak about Christ in the company of other's who followed Islam but were still interested in hearing about Christ as the Savior.

Yeah, Brotherly love... allow God to use you and be obedient to His will and you to can find yourself doing mighty work for God in the most amazing ways!

I will suggest to you that you read the Bible and understand Jesus in an eternal context and not in a 3 year ministry context. He has killed, is killing, and will kill when He returns... WE... those who are obedient to His purpose of being those who He presently uses to bring His wrath to the evil doer ARE the faithful or non-faithful who He uses to do that protecting and killing today. We will continue to do this until He returns and then He can do all the slaughtering Himself as His wrath is physically executed upon the evil doers.

Sure, not all Christians are used by God for the purpose of war or protection or government but for those who ARE NOT used this way... why question those who are used this way and who are obedient? Question God instead!!!

Slug1
May 19th 2010, 01:11 PM
I am not saying this element does not exist. I am saying we need to trust God rather than man.
I have no social security, or retirement.Thanks for this answer but I don't feel you understood the point of the question... why limit your OP to what you raise in your OP:


As I have read in here, some believe that it is the government, or the soldiers in some battle that save us.

The purpose of Minister's of God is not to "save" anyone... God uses them for governing and protection from the evildoers.

You are only focusing on very limited parts of government... so I asked my questions because other Christians do use banks, have retirement, do invest... why are you not speaking out against this "lack" in trust of God to sustain and provide for them until the ends of their lives?

You say in the statement I quoted to start this reply... "I am saying we need to trust God rather than man." If this statement had any truth then why limit your OP to only soldiers? That is why I asked about the banking, retirement and investments for provision of one's future... are those who do this... TRUSTING God to provide?

God had provided all right... we have Minister's of God and we have Federal Banks.

It's your choice to trust them or not. It's NOT even a question of salvation (per your OP).

HisLeast
May 19th 2010, 01:17 PM
I read what you wrote, and ask you as I asked Slug1 in the post just above, will you add these virtues to your life, which seems to mean you will not take a call to any army? After all, this is the point that qualifies the O.P.

Add what virtues to my life?
What does my joining an army have anything to do with anything?

Tread carefully here. My family has been an army family for generations.

EarlyCall
May 19th 2010, 10:31 PM
Sorry I've been away so long. I will try get the general picture in here and answer where I can.
At least Earlycall and Slug1 answer the question I posted, which Early call quoted immediatly above.
Slug1 says there are elements of corruption in the government, Earlycall says there is no corruption in the government. Please correct me if I have misinderstood either of you.

To go on from here, I am not saying God did not put the government there, what I am saying is that the governments He has put there are corrupt.
This is ONE of the reasons to not trust the government.

My point I added to this trusting in the government is that, particularily in the area of the soldier, see O.P. Funny how some in here immediatly jump to positions that seems like they didn't read the O.P. and they were only interested in arguing, especialy the one who was going on about contradiction, and when asked of him to show where he got this, there was silence.

The rest of the O.P. was about how we need to add these virtues to our lives, and that many British and American soldiers are NOT encouraged in the SLIGHTEST to add these virtues to their lives. I feel this is is IMPORTANT to notice, as 2Pet1 says that if we do not have these virtues and increase in them, then in fact, this is a SIGN that the person is NOT saved by the blood of the Lamb.

Another reason why this is important is that; we are called to encourage each other to these virtues, so I call all those in here to these virtues.

You did misunderstand what I said. I mentioned man's inability to form a government free from corruption. I noted this in light of the fact that God also knew this and yet still established governming authorities. Thus, the point is that while corruption exists, it does not nullify government.

I would argue that we are to in fact trust in the government for some things. Paul spoke of the role of government. If therefore the government has a role given it by God, should we not then look to and trust in the government to fulfill that role? I would say logic dictates yes. Of course when government fails to fulfill that role properly, we would be foolish to do so then. But our trust in government should not go beyond the role God gave them. But this is true in all things. Should a child trust its parents? Absolutely and this because God also has established this. But is there a limit in this trust? Of course because some things are beyond the realm of man and only God can be trusted with them.

Butch5
May 20th 2010, 01:39 AM
I know you aren't asking me, so i trust Urban Missionary will get back to you, but I don't see anywhere commanding us to trust the government, do you?

Only the government in the Kingdom of God. The issue is that many Christians want to live in both, but Jesus calls us to His kingdom alone.

Dugdeep
May 20th 2010, 05:05 PM
Brother, what I don't think you understand is that God has a purpose for all in His Kingdom. Some of those who are faithful (and not faithful) are used in government and in the armed forces, police forces and emergency forces all throughout the world. When God wants to protect or it's time to just do protection or says it's time for Him to kill off some evil doers, He moves those who are called Ministers of God and He will use them to destroy the evil doers.


Fair enough, God may have some in certian areas of life, but God does command us to love, as seen by 2Pet1. If this command is in conflict with God's command to love, then Christians NEED to abandon that post, weather it's in an Islamic government where woman may be oppressed, or weather it is in the British, or American armed forces, where they are commanded NOT to love.

Do you agree?

Dugdeep
May 20th 2010, 05:09 PM
This does not mean that those who are obedient to God are not obedient to what the scripture in your OP is all about. In fact... the sacrifice of obedience to God shows that those who are Ministers of God understand brotherly LOVE more then you or anyone who would refuse to be obedient to God in the protection of their brothers and sisters.




I have to strongly disagree! How can I say I am loving anyone and then putting a bullet through them. This is a GROSS CONTRADICTION!

Dugdeep
May 20th 2010, 05:12 PM
Evil doers are at times, in need of death and God has to do this somehow and those who are faithful are only being obedient as they are used by God to protect you from those evil doers.



You seem to indicate that God is COMPLETELY unable to get rid of people by His own might. Do you think there's something wrong with Him that He needs to do it via some disobedient Christian?

Dugdeep
May 20th 2010, 05:17 PM
Do you think that all those throughout all the Bible that God killed, that He didn't love them? It's the same today! Ya don't think that those I killed, I didn't love... that I didn't pray for their loved ones to have comfort and strength to continue in their lives? Be a Minister of God for a day... what we have to do in God's name can only be done through the strength that He gives us. If we are obedient to God and there is any moment of guilt then that moment, the enemy has gotten a claw into us and we have to call on God to remove the doubt.




I am not looking to offend anyone, so I trust you will read with that attitude. Please explain to me how you can love someone and then put a bullet through them? Please explain this kind of 'love' in the light of how Jesus commands us to love? No where have I seen Him instructing such contradiction.

Slug1
May 20th 2010, 05:18 PM
Fair enough, God may have some in certian areas of life, but God does command us to love, as seen by 2Pet1. If this command is in conflict with God's command to love, then Christians NEED to abandon that post, weather it's in an Islamic government where woman may be oppressed, or weather it is in the British, or American armed forces, where they are commanded NOT to love.

Do you agree?Do you understand that Jesus is eternal and has killed, is killing, and will kill when He returns?

Murder is wrong and evil, killing is a "tool" that God uses to see His will done upon the earth. He kills because He loves and we are not to question this, only understand that He is looking out of all He loves. He WILL protect His children because He loves them also... so if a person chooses that they would rather follow satan and be an "evil doer" and not follow God, then God in His Love for ALL... may kill them or they are arrested and tossed in jail we are protected from that one who God still loves, but has chosen to follow satan and not God. Following God's will as a Minister of God is not only about love but also obedience.

By being a soldier is not being ordered NOT to Love... it's because of our love and because of our obedience to God that we obey and He is able to do what He does to protect you due to His love.

Read all of my previous post about how a soldier must both love and kill, just as Jesus has always done.

Slug1
May 20th 2010, 05:19 PM
You seem to indicate that God is COMPLETELY unable to get rid of people by His own might. Do you think there's something wrong with Him that He needs to do it via some disobedient Christian?God doesn't drop fire and brimstone anymore dude... He uses us.

When Jesus returns He will do the slaughtering all by Himself... He'll be physically on the earth doing all the killing and won't need us as servants of war anymore.

Slug1
May 20th 2010, 05:23 PM
I am not looking to offend anyone, so I trust you will read with that attitude. Please explain to me how you can love someone and then put a bullet through them? Please explain this kind of 'love' in the light of how Jesus commands us to love? No where have I seen Him instructing such contradiction.I'll help you this way for now because my answer is very simple... I can do it because I am obedient to God's purpose for me.

Now... ask God your question... God, how can you love but have killed all throughout history, You love yet kill now by using your Minister's of God and when You return in Glory and physically are upon the earth, you will slay all who have sided with satan and are doing evil?

Ask Him!!

Dugdeep
May 20th 2010, 05:27 PM
I will suggest to you that you read the Bible and understand Jesus in an eternal context and not in a 3 year ministry context.


I will say this to anyone who encourages anyone else to semi ignore the gospels,(that was the 3 years of Christ's ministry). Are you ignoring the foundation of the word of God? Is The teaching of Jesus both the fufillment of all teachings from the past, and the foundation of our faith? Are you are encouraging to ignore His commands?

Slug1
May 20th 2010, 05:30 PM
I will say this to anyone who encourages anyone else to semi ignore the gospels,(that was the 3 years of Christ's ministry). Are you ignoring the foundation of the word of God? Is The teaching of Jesus both the fufillment of all teachings from the past, and the foundation of our faith? Are you are encouraging to ignore His commands?No... just apply it to who Jesus is eternally.

By only applying the Gospels you loose out on who He is eternally.

Do you understand seasons? How God will put a person through a season?

Dugdeep
May 20th 2010, 05:36 PM
Sure, not all Christians are used by God for the purpose of war or protection or government but for those who ARE NOT used this way... why question those who are used this way and who are obedient? Question God instead!!!

I need to question ANY WHO who disobeys God's command to love. I find it interesting that you don't answer the question around number 50,51 in here; Are you willing to commit yourself to these virtues spoken of after verse 3 of 2Pet1. Maybe you can't answer this question, as none of the speak of these so called heroic acts you did in battle. God doesn't need questioning, only people who choose not to love as we are commanded to need to be questioned.

2 Pet 1

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Please notice, God says if you don't have these things(virtues) you have forgotten you are saved(paraphrased).

Dugdeep
May 20th 2010, 05:38 PM
Only the government in the Kingdom of God. The issue is that many Christians want to live in both, but Jesus calls us to His kingdom alone.


Yes I agree, so if we are called to His kingdom, can we go around putting bullets through people? Are you willing to allow God to put these virtues into you, spoken of in 2Pet1?

Slug1
May 20th 2010, 05:44 PM
I need to question ANY WHO who disobeys God's command to love. I find it interesting that you don't answer the question around number 50,51 in here; Are you willing to commit yourself to these virtues spoken of after verse 3 of 2Pet1. Maybe you can't answer this question, as none of the speak of these so called heroic acts you did in battle. God doesn't need questioning, only people who choose not to love as we are commanded to need to be questioned.

2 Pet 1

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Please notice, God says if you don't have these things(virtues) you have forgotten you are saved(paraphrased).I do, daily but if God was to put me back in the military and told me to kill those who do evil... what is the value of my love if I say... NO to Him!

What would the value of love be from any God used throughout the Bible for the preservation of His purposes if they said... NO, when they had to kill in obedience? Abrahams willingness to kill his very son in obedience, sets us up to a standard not many are willing to be obedient to. Are we told to kill our own son? NO but some of us are asked to be Minister's of God and in obedience are without God's condemnation. He's killed, so when He needs us so He can kill... why do you have a disconnect?

Only the condemantion of other Christians who question our obedience to God is the only condemnation we have to withstand and for those not filled with doubt in their obedience are not effected by condemnation from others. All that matters is being obedient to God.

By faith dude... all throughout the Bible, all who God used, they and we... do in faith and are obedient, to God.

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 10:09 AM
I do, daily but if God was to put me back in the military and told me to kill those who do evil... what is the value of my love if I say... NO to Him!

.

I like the fact that you put the word but in this sentence. I committ myself to these virtues of love daily, but if...
This implies you need to now leave these virtues behind in order to kill, or which of these virtues do you add in order to kill, which one, or two, or three?

2Pet1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

No where in the New Testament are we told ; "...to kill those who do evil..." In fact we are told to love those who do evil! Which gospel are you reading?

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 10:11 AM
I do, daily but if God was to put me back in the military and told me to kill those who do evil... what is the value of my love if I say... NO to Him!

What would the value of love be from any God used throughout the Bible for the preservation of His purposes if they said... NO, when they had to kill in obedience? Abrahams willingness to kill his very son in obedience, sets us up to a standard not many are willing to be obedient to. Are we told to kill our own son? NO but some of us are asked to be Minister's of God and in obedience are without God's condemnation. He's killed, so when He needs us so He can kill... why do you have a disconnect?

Only the condemantion of other Christians who question our obedience to God is the only condemnation we have to withstand and for those not filled with doubt in their obedience are not effected by condemnation from others. All that matters is being obedient to God.

By faith dude... all throughout the Bible, all who God used, they and we... do in faith and are obedient, to God.



God, in the Old Testament told people to go and kill in wars. In the New Testament, Jesus, Paul, and Peter tell us to love. Yes, the law has changed in the New. God tested Abraham as an example of the provision of the lamb. The New Testament does not encourage us to sacrifice our sons. So it seems your standard of obedience you talk of above is perhaps an error? I think you have missed the next part. Are you saying; we are His ministers to go out and kill? You offer no New Testament verse to back this, and in Rom it speaks only that the Government, NOT the Christian bears the sword. You cannot say the Christian and the Government are one, as this is NOT supported by New Testament teaching.

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 10:13 AM
He's killed, so when He needs us so He can kill.



You indicate here, that He needs us to do His killing? Then you go on to say " He needs us so He can kill". Isn't this a contradiction?

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 10:15 AM
why do you have a disconnect?

.


I don't understand the question.

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 10:16 AM
Only the condemantion of other Christians who question our obedience to God is the only condemnation we have to withstand and for those not filled with doubt in their obedience are not effected by condemnation from others. All that matters is being obedient to God.

.


As I pointed out above. You seem to be calling disobedience obedience?

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 10:18 AM
By faith dude... all throughout the Bible, all who God used, they and we... do in faith and are obedient, to God.


Well then perhaps you have never read the gospel. It is found immediatly after the Old Testament, perhaps you need to take a little time reading there. There are four gospels in the bible. The first is Matthew, the last is John. Then there's the rest of the New Testament which teaches true love, for all including our enemies. When you have done a study of this most wonderful and glorious Testament, perhaps you will change your mind about what you have posted here up to now?

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 10:25 AM
And yet God established these government authorities. These very same authorities by which you claim they are completely corrupt if they are at all corrupt. Do you think God was unaware of man's fallen nature and his inability to form a completely incorruptible government when God said that He has established the governing authorities? The correct answer is NO.

Further, have you noticed that God has involved man in all He has done since He created man? Did God deliver the Jews from Egypt on His own? No He did not. Was it His power alone? Yes it was, but God used Moses. Did God part the red sea alone? No He did not. Was it His power alone? Yes, but He used Moses. Did the walls of Jericho fall by God alone? No. His power alone? Yes, but He used the people to march around the walls. Get the point yet?

In WWII there were people praying against the evil forces at war and surely God intervened. But I can assure that had our armies not taken the field, God would not have moved in His power on our behalf.


You can trust the government in whatever area you choose. I am saying, better not. One reason is we are not called to trust the government. Look at the flood down south some years back. Those that died could have trusted the government as much as they liked, but it did't work for them.
Look at what is happening in Greece, spain, and some East European countries, the government is cutting pensions, government salaries, it's pretty much a mess.

It was NOT the government that took down the walls of Jerico, or in Moses' case, so what point are you trying to make? I am speaking of government, spesifically in war, but you seem to be getting crossed lines here with me?


My point about war is that the Christian in no where in the New Testament instructed to war the way the world wars, only spiritual warfare is instructed.

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 10:28 AM
Add what virtues to my life?
What does my joining an army have anything to do with anything?

Tread carefully here. My family has been an army family for generations.

I am so sorry if I offend you by doing a little expounding from the New Testament. This is not my purpose! But if God says it, we NEED to obey!
My point about war is that the Christian in no where in the New Testament instructed to war the way the world wars, only spiritual warfare is instructed.

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 11:21 AM
I like the fact that you put the word but in this sentence. I committ myself to these virtues of love daily, but if...
This implies you need to now leave these virtues behind in order to kill, or which of these virtues do you add in order to kill, which one, or two, or three?

2Pet1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

No where in the New Testament are we told ; "...to kill those who do evil..." In fact we are told to love those who do evil! Which gospel are you reading?

Dude... will Jesus be leaving the same when He returns and must kills off all who are evil doers?

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 11:23 AM
Well then perhaps you have never read the gospel. It is found immediatly after the Old Testament, perhaps you need to take a little time reading there. There are four gospels in the bible. The first is Matthew, the last is John. Then there's the rest of the New Testament which teaches true love, for all including our enemies. When you have done a study of this most wonderful and glorious Testament, perhaps you will change your mind about what you have posted here up to now?Hahaha, I am well aware of the location of the Gospel in the Bible and in faith I am a servant of Jesus. God Bless you dude!

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 11:26 AM
You indicate here, that He needs us to do His killing? Then you go on to say " He needs us so He can kill". Isn't this a contradiction?He doesn't drop fire and brimstone anymore... we have to be His servants to do His will and when He want's to kill off evil doers, He uses... man.

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 02:05 PM
He doesn't drop fire and brimstone anymore... we have to be His servants to do His will and when He want's to kill off evil doers, He uses... man.

He could use man if He chose to, but we as Christians are commanded to love in the entire New Testament.

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 02:10 PM
He could use man if He chose to, but we as Christians are commanded to love in the entire New Testament.It's because of my love and faith in God, that I am obedient.

Was Paul loving those assassins when he told the commander about the plot on his life and then was protected?

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 02:11 PM
Hahaha, I am well aware of the location of the Gospel in the Bible and in faith I am a servant of Jesus. God Bless you dude!


If you know where the New Testament is, why are you encouraging disobedience to the teachings found there? Do I need to go through the entire New testament where we are instructed to love all, even our enemies, Luke 6:35" But love ye your enemies..."

Your teaching about killing so called evil men in this thread is in DIRECT contrast to what Jesus taught!

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 02:12 PM
If you know where the New Testament is, why are you encouraging disobedience to the teachings found there? Do I need to go through the entire New testament where we are instructed to love all, even our enemies, Luke 6:35" But love ye your enemies..."

Your teaching about killing so called evil men in this thread is in DIRECT contrast to what Jesus taught!Is it in DIRECT contrast to what Jesus will do to evil doers when He returns and slaughters all those sided with satan?

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 02:17 PM
Is it in DIRECT contrast to what Jesus will do to evil doers when He returns and slaughters all those sided with satan?


You are missing the point. This is not a thread in the 'End Times' posts, this is 'Bible Chat'. We are talking about now, May 21 2010, Jesus and the rest of the New Testament instructs to love as pointed out in number 85. If you want to discuss end times, I think it will be better in another section.
You are avoiding the issue of the instruction for now Slug. See number 85.

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 02:22 PM
You are missing the point. This is not a thread in the 'End Times' posts, this is 'Bible Chat'. We are talking about now, May 21 2010, Jesus and the rest of the New Testament instructs to love as pointed out in number 85. If you want to discuss end times, I think it will be better in another section.
You are avoiding the issue of the instruction for now Slug. See number 85.Look, you said "entire NT" and we can't limit Christ... we have to know Him eternally. If you want to limit Christ to only the scriptures about love and refuse to know Him throughout the entire "Bible"... then you will be limited in, knowing Christ as He is eternally.

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 02:27 PM
Look, you said "entire NT" and we can't limit Christ... we have to know Him eternally. If you want to limit Christ to only the scriptures about love and refuse to know Him throughout the entire "Bible"... then you will be limited in, knowing Christ as He is eternally.


You are avoiding the issue of our responsibility now Slug1. This IS NOT a discussion regarding end times. You cannot IGNORE all the verses of love in the New Testament, and pretend to be obedient to God by you slaying those who disagree with your governments policies, when He HAS NOT INSTRUCTED YOU TO DO SO!

HisLeast
May 21st 2010, 02:33 PM
You are avoiding the issue of our responsibility now Slug1. This IS NOT a discussion regarding end times. You cannot IGNORE all the verses of love in the New Testament, and pretend to be obedient to God by you slaying those who disagree with your governments policies, when He HAS NOT INSTRUCTED YOU TO DO SO!

"slaying those who disagree with your governments policies"

Well, there goes any hope for rational dialog.

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 02:36 PM
"slaying those who disagree with your governments policies"

Well, there goes any hope for rational dialog.

Are you saying you see nothing rational in the rest of the sentence I wrote?

HisLeast
May 21st 2010, 02:40 PM
Are you saying you see nothing rational in the rest of the sentence I wrote?

I see nothing rational in a straw man that large.

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 02:46 PM
I see nothing rational in a straw man that large.


Are you saying I am talking rubbish by posting ; "You are avoiding the issue of our responsibility now Slug1. This IS NOT a discussion regarding end times. You cannot IGNORE all the verses of love in the New Testament, and pretend to be obedient to God by you slaying those who disagree with your governments policies, when He HAS NOT INSTRUCTED YOU TO DO SO! "

I answered you earlier about what you said about your family being in the military, did you see that? What do you think of my response?

I don't know what the straw man is, is this an expression from your area?

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 02:47 PM
You are avoiding the issue of our responsibility now Slug1. This IS NOT a discussion regarding end times. You cannot IGNORE all the verses of love in the New Testament, and pretend to be obedient to God by you slaying those who disagree with your governments policies, when He HAS NOT INSTRUCTED YOU TO DO SO!What ?

I really don't understand at all now... if you want to discuss Jesus, we MUST know all of Jesus.

Of course all He does (kills) when He returns counters all you say... so what does that say about what you are saying since you don't want these actions (killing) by Him in your discussion?

Think about it.

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 02:51 PM
What ?

I really don't understand at all now... if you want to discuss Jesus, we MUST know all of Jesus.

Of course all He does (kills) when He returns counters all you say... so what does that say about what you are saying since you don't want these actions by him in your discussion?

Think about it.

Come on, this thread is NOT about God destroying at the end of the age. This is May 2010. You are IGNORING His instructions to love found in the New Testament!

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 02:57 PM
What ?

I really don't understand at all now... if you want to discuss Jesus, we MUST know all of Jesus.

Of course all He does (kills) when He returns counters all you say... so what does that say about what you are saying since you don't want these actions (killing) by Him in your discussion?


Think about it.

I don't doubt what He will do at the end of the age. This thread is NOT about that, why can't you understand that. It's about His instructions to love and the other virtues spoken of in 2Pet1

Dugdeep
May 21st 2010, 02:58 PM
I trust people who read in here will take the instructions of God in the New Testament seriously. Almost on every page, there in the instruction to love, which can be read in the O.P.and many of my posts that follow. Please know, that I did not inspire the words of these instructions, they came straight from God Himself! May we seek to be obedient to Him, even if it disagrees with our governments policies.

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 03:00 PM
Come on, this thread is NOT about God destroying at the end of the age. This is May 2010. You are IGNORING His instructions to love found in the New Testament!And you are ignoring the fact that Jesus will not counter His own Word.... so all you say must not be all the truth in understanding and wisdom.

Jesus cannot... ONLY say all you point out that He said about love and then return to kill.... yet we all know that He will do this. Does He love or not? We all know He does LOVE, He loves deeper then any of us will ever be able to love another but yet He still returns to kill those who don't love Him!!??

So yes, ALL the New Testiment is very important to understand and KNOW Jesus eternally and not limiited to His three years of ministry.

We also all know from the examples in the Bible that soldiers are faithful to God. If you do not want to follow this example, that's your choice. Not all are purposed to be Minister's of God. This is in the very Gospel portions of the NT and as you said... this is May 2010 so there is no difference in a soldier serving in the military then, than it is for a faithful servant of God to serve in the military today!!

Did Paul show "love" to the assassins once he discovered the plot to kill him and he went and told the authorities?

What would you do in his "exact" situation?

Vhayes
May 21st 2010, 03:05 PM
Hi Dugdeep -

Is it "love" to see a man beating another man because of the color of his skin and to say, "Oh, how dreadful. But I love that man who is inflicting the beating, so I will just watch and pray"? Or is it "love" to see that scenario and jump smack in the middle of it and stop it because you actually love both the victim being beaten AND the man inflicting the beating enough to use force?

God's love, which we are commanded to have, is not the sloppy agape of the world. It is a love that is perfect. In my opinion it IS loving the man administering the beating because you may be a part of softening that mans heart.

Does that make sense?
V

HisLeast
May 21st 2010, 03:15 PM
Are you saying I am talking rubbish by posting ; "You are avoiding the issue of our responsibility now Slug1. This IS NOT a discussion regarding end times. You cannot IGNORE all the verses of love in the New Testament, and pretend to be obedient to God by you slaying those who disagree with your governments policies, when He HAS NOT INSTRUCTED YOU TO DO SO! "
I'm not saying you're talking rubbish. I'm saying that you're speaking irrationally.


I don't know what the straw man is, is this an expression from your area?
It is an informal term for a logical fallacy.

Upon further consideration, what you propose is more of a non-sequitur than a straw man... but its close enough to be a little bit of both.

HisLeast
May 21st 2010, 03:16 PM
I trust people who read in here will take the instructions of God in the New Testament seriously. Almost on every page, there in the instruction to love, which can be read in the O.P.and many of my posts that follow. Please know, that I did not inspire the words of these instructions, they came straight from God Himself! May we seek to be obedient to Him, even if it disagrees with our governments policies.

Here you present a false dilema.

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 05:10 PM
And you are ignoring the fact that Jesus will not counter His own Word.... so all you say must not be all the truth in understanding and wisdom.

Jesus cannot... ONLY say all you point out that He said about love and then return to kill.... yet we all know that He will do this. Does He love or not? We all know He does LOVE, He loves deeper then any of us will ever be able to love another but yet He still returns to kill those who don't love Him!!??

So yes, ALL the New Testament is very important to understand and KNOW Jesus eternally and not limited to His three years of ministry.

We also all know from the examples in the Bible that soldiers are faithful to God. If you do not want to follow this example, that's your choice. Not all are purposed to be Minister's of God. This is in the very Gospel portions of the NT and as you said... this is May 2010 so there is no difference in a soldier serving in the military then, than it is for a faithful servant of God to serve in the military today!!

Did Paul show "love" to the assassins once he discovered the plot to kill him and he went and told the authorities?

What would you do in his "exact" situation?

What Jesus will do is irrelevant. The issue is what has He commanded the Christian to do?

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 05:13 PM
What Jesus will do is irrelevant. The issue is what has He commanded the Christian to do?So we serve a God who is all about: Do as I say, not as I do?

It is relevant Butch... we must understand and know Jesus, as He is eternally. This means from the first word we read in the Bible to the very last word we read.

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 05:20 PM
Hi Dugdeep -

Is it "love" to see a man beating another man because of the color of his skin and to say, "Oh, how dreadful. But I love that man who is inflicting the beating, so I will just watch and pray"? Or is it "love" to see that scenario and jump smack in the middle of it and stop it because you actually love both the victim being beaten AND the man inflicting the beating enough to use force?

God's love, which we are commanded to have, is not the sloppy agape of the world. It is a love that is perfect. In my opinion it IS loving the man administering the beating because you may be a part of softening that mans heart.

Does that make sense?
V

It appears that you do not think that prayer is sufficient to stop the attack, why? This one thing about Christians that is truly puzzling. They say they cannot save themselves and must rely on God for salvation, yet when they speak of physical salvation, all of a sudden they no longer seem to rely on God, but must save their own life, why do you suppose this is? If God can save a soul for eternity, can He not also save the physical life of the one being attacked?

It seems to me that Christians want the benefits of God's kingdom but not the responsibilities. They seem to want to be saved from hell but don't seem to be very willing to lay down their life for Christ.

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 05:22 PM
It appears that you do not think that prayer is sufficient to stop the attack, why? This one thing about Christians that is truly puzzling. They say they cannot save themselves and must rely on God for salvation, yet when they speak of physical salvation, all of a sudden they no longer seem to rely on God, but must save their own life, why do you suppose this is? If God can save a soul for eternity, can He not also save the physical life of the one being attacked?

It seems to me that Christians want the benefits of God's kingdom but not the responsibilities. They seem to want to be saved from hell but don't seem to be very willing to lay down their life for Christ.Butch.... then why didn't Paul just "pray" when he discovered the plot to kill him?

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 05:23 PM
So we serve a God who is all about: Do as I say, not as I do?

It is relevant Butch... we must understand and know Jesus, as He is eternally. This means from the first word we read in the Bible to the very last word we read.

As I said, the issue is what he commanded Christians to do, not what He Himself may or may not do.

You abide by the laws of the government, do you not? Well, the government can pout a man to death without repercussions in the physical world, you cannot. It is the same with Christ.

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 05:27 PM
As I said, the issue is what he commanded Christians to do, not what He Himself may or may not do.

You abide by the laws of the government, do you not? Well, the government can pout a man to death without repercussions in the physical world, you cannot. It is the same with Christ.Which is exactly why as a Minister of God, in obedience we're used to bring God's wrath to the evil doers.

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 05:27 PM
Butch.... then why didn't Paul just "pray" when he discovered the plot to kill him?

They issue I addressed was not about one protecting themselves, it was about another person jumping in to protect them. Your question deals with a completely different subject.
However, to answer your question, Jesus said it is OK to flee when in danger, this is simply what Paul did. He had the captain informed so that he could flee. There was no military force used against those who were lying in wait for Paul.

However, you did not answer the question. Is prayer sufficient to stop the attack???

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 05:42 PM
They issue I addressed was not about one protecting themselves, it was about another person jumping in to protect them. Your question deals with a completely different subject.
However, to answer your question, Jesus said it is OK to flee when in danger, this is simply what Paul did. He had the captain informed so that he could flee. There was no military force used against those who were lying in wait for Paul.

However, you did not answer the question. Is prayer sufficient to stop the attack???

Umm, well let's just filter your post then...


It appears that you do not think that prayer is sufficient to stop the attack, why?


So... my question stands. You stated to V that it appears she doesn't feel that prayer is sufficient to stop the attack. Well, I can post all the scripture dealing with Paul discovering the plot to kill him and his actions that didn't include any prayer at all.

He didn't flee Butch... maybe we do need to post all the scripture... He was escorted. An action that goes completely against all you are saying. He didn't pray at all, he relied 100% upon the massive force that escorted him. No wonder he wasn't attacked.

So... why didn't Paul just "pray" when he discovered the plot to kill him?

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 05:56 PM
Umm, well let's just filter your post then...



So... my question stands. You stated to V that it appears she doesn't feel that prayer is sufficient to stop the attack. Well, I can post all the scripture dealing with Paul discovering the plot to kill him and his actions that didn't include any prayer at all.

He didn't flee Butch... maybe we do need to post all the scripture... He was escorted. An action that goes completely against all you are saying. He didn't pray at all, he relied 100% upon the massive force that escorted him. No wonder he wasn't attacked.

So... why didn't Paul just "pray" when he discovered the plot to kill him?

As I said, your question deals with a completely different subject.

To think that Paul did not pray is just about inconceivable. Slug1, you make assumptions, I am not going to get into another senseless debate as in the other thread. Your reason is flawed and you will not acknowledge this fact. Let's follow your reasoning. It isn't recorded in the Bible so it didn't happen. On this long journey that took place after they had taken Paul from the prison, do you suppose that Paul ever spoke to anyone? Do you suppose that he must have said, I have to go to the bathroom? Using your line of reasoning the answer is no, Paul never spoke to anyone on the journey and he never said he had to go to the bathroom, because if he did it would be written in the Scriptures. So, using this line of reasoning we must conclude that Paul did not go to the bathroom for the entire journey. Or, for that matter we must conclude that Paul never went to the bathroom in his entire life because it is not recorded in Scripture.

Slug1
May 21st 2010, 06:09 PM
As I said, your question deals with a completely different subject.

To think that Paul did not pray is just about inconceivable. Slug1, you make assumptions, I am not going to get into another senseless debate as in the other thread. Your reason is flawed and you will not acknowledge this fact. Let's follow your reasoning. It isn't recorded in the Bible so it didn't happen. See Butch... this is the problem... the Bible tells us exactly what happened. The child over heard the plot, told Paul and then Paul sent the child to the commander. I am not assuming at all... you are assuming based on the silence of the Bible you clearly figure he prayed... well, who then is assuming upon silence? Me, based on the words I read, or you, based on what you can't read?


On this long journey that took place after they had taken Paul from the prison, do you suppose that Paul ever spoke to anyone? Do you suppose that he must have said, I have to go to the bathroom? Using your line of reasoning the answer is no, Paul never spoke to anyone on the journey and he never said he had to go to the bathroom, because if he did it would be written in the Scriptures. So, using this line of reasoning we must conclude that Paul did not go to the bathroom for the entire journey. Or, for that matter we must conclude that Paul never went to the bathroom in his entire life because it is not recorded in Scripture.Again... all you state is based on assumption since we do not have any words in the Bible answering all these assumptions on your part. Besides... this is all smoke again.. cough, hack, hack, cough... hackityhackcough :lol:

So, why didn't Paul just pray to God and walk himself to Caesarea all by his lonesome with God protecting him? You are the one who asked why don't Christians rely on God for all their protection and we have examples in the Bible that counter what you preach! All it takes is ONE example and Paul situation in Acts 23 is a great example.

We also do have examples of God protecting without prayer as when Paul was bit by that viper from the woodpile. So we do know that God does protect... don't get me wrong, I know since I've been on the receiving end of divine protection as well... while in combat too.

What would have happened to Paul if he did what you preach... prayed and walked that route all by his lonesome?

We will never know because he didn't pray and he relied on the protection of those soldiers.

Also, since we can concern the OP's "virtues"... what love does Paul show toward the assassin's in his action of not praying and relying on the authorities to protect him from the threat?

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 11:49 PM
Which is exactly why as a Minister of God, in obedience we're used to bring God's wrath to the evil doers.

Yes, but, the ministers of God that Paul is speaking of are not Chrsitians. We have been over this.

Butch5
May 21st 2010, 11:55 PM
See Butch... this is the problem... the Bible tells us exactly what happened. The child over heard the plot, told Paul and then Paul sent the child to the commander. I am not assuming at all... you are assuming based on the silence of the Bible you clearly figure he prayed... well, who then is assuming upon silence? Me, based on the words I read, or you, based on what you can't read?

Again... all you state is based on assumption since we do not have any words in the Bible answering all these assumptions on your part. Besides... this is all smoke again.. cough, hack, hack, cough... hackityhackcough :lol:

So, why didn't Paul just pray to God and walk himself to Caesarea all by his lonesome with God protecting him? You are the one who asked why don't Christians rely on God for all their protection and we have examples in the Bible that counter what you preach! All it takes is ONE example and Paul situation in Acts 23 is a great example.

We also do have examples of God protecting without prayer as when Paul was bit by that viper from the woodpile. So we do know that God does protect... don't get me wrong, I know since I've been on the receiving end of divine protection as well... while in combat too.

What would have happened to Paul if he did what you preach... prayed and walked that route all by his lonesome?

We will never know because he didn't pray and he relied on the protection of those soldiers.

Also, since we can concern the OP's "virtues"... what love does Paul show toward the assassin's in his action of not praying and relying on the authorities to protect him from the threat?

As I said Slug1, using your reasoning Paul also never went to the bathroom because it is not written in Scripture. The Scriptures do not record every single word that Jesus, Paul, Peter, John etc. said. You don't know whether Paul prayed or not, so to claim he did not pray is an assumption. I did not claim that Paul prayed I said to think that he didn't is almost inconceivable. You on the other hand made the claim that Paul did not pray, unless you were there there is no way for you to know "EVERY SINGLE DETAIL" of what happened.

Dugdeep
May 22nd 2010, 10:15 AM
I see nothing rational in a straw man that large.


Is it not kind of unloving to, just because you disagree, to say ;"I see nothing rational in a straw man that large." without giving which part of the sentence or statement you say you disagree with?

To say, 'I see nothing rational...' without an explanation is more like saying; you are irrational.

I trust love will abide in here, even if we disagree!

So you say it is irrational to love people, even your enemies?

Dugdeep
May 22nd 2010, 10:19 AM
And you are ignoring the fact that Jesus will not counter His own Word.... so all you say must not be all the truth in understanding and wisdom.

Jesus cannot... ONLY say all you point out that He said about love and then return to kill.... yet we all know that He will do this. Does He love or not? We all know He does LOVE, He loves deeper then any of us will ever be able to love another but yet He still returns to kill those who don't love Him!!??

So yes, ALL the New Testiment is very important to understand and KNOW Jesus eternally and not limiited to His three years of ministry.




As I have asked, and asked, and ask again, This is not about the end of the age! This is NOT about what Jesus will do when He comes on the clouds, or where ever He comes! This is about NOW!

PLEASE STICK TO THE THREAD.

You know before God, you are NOT being loving by encouraging anyone to put bullets through people.
You know NO WHERE in the NT does God say go show love by putting bullets through people.
STOP telling me about what Jesus will do at the end of the age. I AM NOT SPEAKING OF HIS RESPONSIBILITY,
I AM SPEAKING ABOUT OURS!

And to say that I am limited by the 3 year ministry of Jesus is not honest. I am quoting the whole NT time and again, did you read the OP?

Dugdeep
May 22nd 2010, 10:24 AM
We also all know from the examples in the Bible that soldiers are faithful to God. If you do not want to follow this example, that's your choice.



Slug1. NO WHERE DID GOD IN THE NEW TESTAMENT TELL US TO FOLLOW THE EXAMPLES OF THESE SOLDIERS!
HE TOLD US TO LOVE ALL, ALL THE TIME!

Dugdeep
May 22nd 2010, 10:30 AM
This is in the very Gospel portions of the NT and as you said... this is May 2010 so there is no difference in a soldier serving in the military then, than it is for a faithful servant of God to serve in the military today!!



Stop avoiding the instructions of God! God said love all, all the time. THIS IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY NOW, MAY 2010! If you choose to disobey this instruction to love, then this is sad, as you indicate that you have the name of Jesus on your tatoo.

Dugdeep
May 22nd 2010, 10:34 AM
Hi Dugdeep -

Is it "love" to see a man beating another man because of the color of his skin and to say, "Oh, how dreadful. But I love that man who is inflicting the beating, so I will just watch and pray"? Or is it "love" to see that scenario and jump smack in the middle of it and stop it because you actually love both the victim being beaten AND the man inflicting the beating enough to use force?

God's love, which we are commanded to have, is not the sloppy agape of the world. It is a love that is perfect. In my opinion it IS loving the man administering the beating because you may be a part of softening that mans heart.

Does that make sense?
V


I can only tell you what God instructs, please if you feel you will be in this situation, do as you feel you need to. At the moment we are discussing pre-meditated training where people are trained to kill others in war. I am saying this kind of killing is not love. I pray none of the above will happen to you.(as you describe in your post)

Dugdeep
May 22nd 2010, 10:42 AM
Did Paul show "love" to the assassins once he discovered the plot to kill him and he went and told the authorities?

What would you do in his "exact" situation?


Slug1. I feel it is dishonest to edit my post with red. Please edit you own posts only.
Maybe you can tell me about Paul loving his assasins. This, and what I would do in the "exact" situation has little to do with our responsibility to love here and now. Please try sticking to the points raised. God has instructed us in 2Pet1: 5 to " giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

You seem to be giving all your diligence to encouraging others to go kill in war. The scripture above instructs us to give our diligence to far more attractive virtues.

Slug1
May 22nd 2010, 05:36 PM
Slug1. I feel it is dishonest to edit my post with red. Please edit you own posts only.
Maybe you can tell me about Paul loving his assasins. This, and what I would do in the "exact" situation has little to do with our responsibility to love here and now. Please try sticking to the points raised. God has instructed us in 2Pet1: 5 to " giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

You seem to be giving all your diligence to encouraging others to go kill in war. The scripture above instructs us to give our diligence to far more attractive virtues.Just pointed out a key element to the quoted post of yours.

OK... brotherly love... if you question my lack of brotherly love, would you also question Paul for "his" lack of brotherly love toward those assassins?

Will you question Jesus when He returns and slaughters many, many people because they decided not to love Him?

Slug1
May 22nd 2010, 05:39 PM
Slug1. NO WHERE DID GOD IN THE NEW TESTAMENT TELL US TO FOLLOW THE EXAMPLES OF THESE SOLDIERS!
HE TOLD US TO LOVE ALL, ALL THE TIME!Look, the point is this... I was a soldier and I was also a servant of God just as we jave examples of this in the Bible. Cornelius and the faithful Centurion as two examples. If they can serve and be a servant of God, then why can't I?

Slug1
May 22nd 2010, 05:42 PM
Yes, but, the ministers of God that Paul is speaking of are not Chrsitians. We have been over this.

Cornelius, the faithful Centurion, also that jailor were... if they can be, I can be and anyone else that the Lord leads to this purpose can also be.

If there were absolutely no examples of soldiers serving in the military while also faithful to God in the Bible... I'd agree with much of what you say, but with those examples... you're wrong Butch. Each time I read my Bible and I can read about Cornelius and that faithful Centurion and then how Jesus used Paul and Silas to speak to that jailer and Jesus drew that soldier to Him. I can't agree with your interpretation.

Your interpretation ignores all the examples in the Bible and for whatever reason, your Bible seems to be missing Luke 3:14 because you keep asking that same question over and over and I ask if you'd like for me to read it to you but when I post it... you keep asking for any scripture that shows that it is OK to be a soldier while accepting/serving Christ.

Butch5
May 23rd 2010, 12:41 AM
Cornelius, the faithful Centurion, also that jailer were... if they can be, I can be and anyone else that the Lord leads to this purpose can also be.

That is your assumption, you have not evidence whatsoever that any of these men continued in military after this point. You are simply assuming they did. You are assuming that these individuals were exempt from Jesus' command to "Love your enemies." The apostles were to abide by the command and be beaten and stone and were not to retaliate, but you say that Cornelius, the Centurion, and the Jailer, did not have to obey Christ's command and could kill if they desired. Does that not seem ridiculous to you?



If there were absolutely no examples of soldiers serving in the military while also faithful to God in the Bible... I'd agree with much of what you say, but with those examples... you're wrong Butch. Each time I read my Bible and I can read about Cornelius and that faithful Centurion and then how Jesus used Paul and Silas to speak to that jailer and Jesus drew that soldier to Him. I can't agree with your interpretation.

No, you don't have examples. What you have is soldiers who came to Christ. They were soldiers before they came to Christ. The Bible does not tell us what happened to them after they came to Christ. You are simply assuming that they continued in the military in defiance to Christ's command.


Your interpretation ignores all the examples in the Bible and for whatever reason, your Bible seems to be missing Luke 3:14 because you keep asking that same question over and over and I ask if you'd like for me to read it to you but when I post it... you keep asking for any scripture that shows that it is OK to be a soldier while accepting/serving Christ.


you keep asking for any scripture that shows that it is OK to be a soldier while accepting/serving Christ.

And you have yet to supply one, that should be a hint. Luke 3:14 does not say it is OK to serve in the military.

Slug1
May 23rd 2010, 03:22 AM
That is your assumption, you have not evidence whatsoever that any of these men continued in military after this point. Butch... it's not about continuing... it's about the example that they ARE presently in military service when God uses them due to their "FAITH" in Him. They were soldiers WHEN they were used in mighty ways... examples for us all who serve God and either are soldiers or are not soldiers.

God uses such soldiers then, He continues to do so today.


And you have yet to supply one, that should be a hint. Luke 3:14 does not say it is OK to serve in the military. Let's continue with this then... what do the words, "be satisfied with you pay" mean then?

Dugdeep
May 24th 2010, 06:09 AM
Just pointed out a key element to the quoted post of yours.

OK... brotherly love... if you question my lack of brotherly love, would you also question Paul for "his" lack of brotherly love toward those assassins?

Will you question Jesus when He returns and slaughters many, many people because they decided not to love Him?


Slug1. You don't seem to be listening at all! This is NOT ABOUT when Jesus returns. This is about our responsibility now. Stop trying to use Him as your excuse. It is NOT working. He HAS given us instruction. You do NOT not want to follow His instruction.

Also, I am not here questioning Paul. Thanks for the advise about whom I should question, now let's get back to the thread shall we?

Dugdeep
May 24th 2010, 06:18 AM
We also all know from the examples in the Bible that soldiers are faithful to God. If you do not want to follow this example, that's your choice.



This is the second time I am quoting you with this quote Mr.Slug1. Do you acknowlege that you are in error here? Or, if I am wrong? Tell me where we are told to follow any soldier in their action of killing others in the NT? There is NONE, come on Mr. Slug1, be honest about this for once.

Dugdeep
May 24th 2010, 06:28 AM
Look, the point is this... I was a soldier and I was also a servant of God just as we jave examples of this in the Bible. Cornelius and the faithful Centurion as two examples. If they can serve and be a servant of God, then why can't I?

That is NOT the point, and I don't even know why Mr.Butch5 goes down this lane with you.
The point is NO WHERE IN THE NT ARE CHRISTIANS TOLD TO GO KILL IN WAR!!! I too was a soldier and a servant of God, BUT I read the NT and realised my SIN and repented and left the evil forces, and joined a new army which fights as God instructs in the NT,(Eph6) , to fight a spititual war.

So, to answer your question. You can still kill in the U.S. army, but in disobedience to His instruction in the NT.

Please come and join our army Mr. Slug1. It is only those who persue obedience and add the virtues of 2Pet1 to their lives that will never fall, and that are on the Victors side.

Slug1
May 24th 2010, 11:44 AM
That is NOT the point, and I don't even know why Mr.Butch5 goes down this lane with you.
The point is NO WHERE IN THE NT ARE CHRISTIANS TOLD TO GO KILL IN WAR!!! I too was a soldier and a servant of God, BUT I read the NT and realised my SIN and repented and left the evil forces, and joined a new army which fights as God instructs in the NT,(Eph6) , to fight a spititual war.

So, to answer your question. You can still kill in the U.S. army, but in disobedience to His instruction in the NT.

Please come and join our army Mr. Slug1. It is only those who persue obedience and add the virtues of 2Pet1 to their lives that will never fall, and that are on the Victors side.Welp... it's clear you will not accept that God will use those who are soldiers and who are also faithful to Him.

Dani H
May 24th 2010, 11:47 AM
Thread closed for mod review.