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crossnote
May 22nd 2010, 02:12 PM
Why Pray for the Unsaved? This question is directed to both the Pelagian types and the Calvinist types.
To the Pelagian types isn't it an attempt to intrude on man's free will? (God will interfere with mans will giving him an unfair advantage).
To the Calvinist types. Isn't it an attempt to overthrow God's already established 'elect' amount or identities?

losthorizon
May 22nd 2010, 02:35 PM
Why Pray for the Unsaved?


We are to pray for and teach the lost because Jesus died for ALL men and “God is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance.” God "foreordains to eternal life" those whom he foresees will obey the gospel of grace by their own free-will.

crawfish
May 22nd 2010, 02:38 PM
As one of the former, praying for someone does not de-emphasize the necessity of free will for anyone to choose God. What it does (should) make us is an active participant in God's work in that person's life.

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 02:40 PM
Why Pray for the Unsaved?
To the Pelagian types isn't it an attempt to intrude on man's free will? (God will interfere with mans will giving him an unfair advantage).Where does scripture say to pray for the salvation of the unsaved?

Dani H
May 22nd 2010, 02:55 PM
There are two intercessors in all of human history: Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

When darkness overcomes us, who will intercede for us? Jesus always lives to make intercession for us. The Bible says so. Why would He have to do that if there was no need for it? The Holy Spirit is here to do the same, to pit His power against that of the enemy and the world under his sway, and to draw people to the Savior. We are His fellow laborers. If He is the Chief Intercessor, then we are to make ourselves available to join Him in that. Why would God in Ezekiel bemoan the lack of intercessors? Why would He find it necessary to gird up His own loins and handle things Himself? Why would He check far and wide and search for an intercessor if one wasn't necessary? Is God a liar? Is Ezekiel not part of His inspired Scripture?

If you really believe that everything is predestined by God and you make zero difference, then why pray at all? Why intercede at all? Why be here and not just have God yank you outta here the second you are born again? What's the point of staying?

I think that's my greatest issue with any theology that states that God a) doesn't require anything from us as if His original mandate to Adam and Eve has been nullified and b) works around us and over our heads to accomplish whatever He wants, as if we made zero difference. That to me is the ultimate conclusion I must reach when I look at such theology at its extremis when I think it through. Because you can't have it both ways. What we do either matters, or it doesn't. God either requires our cooperation, or He doesn't.

I also believe that while man is capable to make free decisions and that we've all been given that capability by God Himself, our wills have been touched by the fall. No unregenerated man's will is truly free, because he has all sorts of things tugging at it, drawing him into the world and skewing his desires and perverting them. How is that free will? It's not. We do have freedom of choice, though, and there is a big difference.

From where I sit, intercession helps to truly free up a person's will for them to see God clearly and be brought into a position where they can actually make an unencumbered choice, where the pull of the Spirit is at least equal to or supersedes the pull of the world and of darkness. And I know this is true and can testify to it because I have seen it happen over and over and over and over again through the span of many years.

Maybe I just don't understand certain types of theology (I probably don't because I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to lots of theological matters and so beg pardon), but that is where I stand.

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 02:59 PM
There are two intercessors in all of human history: Jesus and the Holy Spirit.Moses?
At any rate intercession is always for His people.

losthorizon
May 22nd 2010, 03:05 PM
Where does scripture say to pray for the salvation of the unsaved?

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:1-4 ESV)

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 03:09 PM
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
has nothing to do with
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people

that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way
is the
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior

who
desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

The
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people
are so
we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way

Quickened
May 22nd 2010, 03:38 PM
Why pray for the unsaved?
Who wants to see anyone go to hell? We all know people in this world that we think arent saved. It could be a family member, a neighbor, a close friend or fellow employee. We have a relationship with these people. You grow to like them and even love them. Of course you consider where they stand before God because you are a Christian. We tend to think alot about our actions and how it affects our standing with the Almighty Creator.

We as people typically desire the best for people. Therefore you find people praying for the salvation of others.

losthorizon
May 22nd 2010, 03:42 PM
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
has nothing to do with
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people

that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way
is the
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior

who
desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

The
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people
are so
we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way
The text is pretty straightforward - Christians are to pray for all people that we may lead a peaceful, godly and dignified life and we are to pray that all people will come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. Why - because God our Savior desires us to live peaceful, godly and dignified lives and He desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why would you refuse to pray that the lost be saved? We you ever lost?

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 03:48 PM
The text is pretty straightforwardThis said by someone that thinks work of God mean work of man.....


Christians are to pray for all people that we may lead a peaceful, godly and dignified life and we are to pray that all people will come to the knowledge of the truth and be savedIt doesn't say that. It simply states it is His will that all be saved, and people are not going to hear what we have to say if we are in contention with them. That's what it says!


because God our Savior desires us to live peaceful, godly and dignified lives and He desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. So we cannot live peaceably with all men unless they are saved? Absurd. you are not understanding the simple text.


Why would you refuse to pray that the lost be saved? We you ever lost?I never said we should not pray for the lost. It plainly says here we should. It just doesn't say pray for their salvation. Why are you going to pray for what we already know is His will? Kinda futile isn't it? You can pray for laborers....and/or be one yourself

Dani H
May 22nd 2010, 04:00 PM
Moses?
At any rate intercession is always for His people.

Yes, Moses and Abraham and Esther and Daniel and Paul and others. But always with the Holy Spirit behind them and meeting them, if you think about it. God is our Redeemer. He is always searching for those of us who will join Him in His great act of redemption. For His people, for the human race as a whole, for His creation. It's all about redemption, don't you think? That's what I see when I look at Scripture and how God works with us and strives with us according to His great plan for us. Intercession is all about identification. Moses identified himself with Israel. Their destiny was his own. He was willing to do whatever it took for God to take them where they needed to go. God challenged him and said "lemme do away with them and I'll start over with you like I did with Abraham." Moses said "no if you blot them out, then blot me out too." See how great the work of the Spirit was in Moses' own heart for him to say such a thing and mean it? Can you not see the big smile on God's face when those words came out of Moses' mouth? Can you imagine? Paul was willing to be accursed if it meant that Israel could be saved. That takes a seriously deep, solid work of the Spirit in somebody's heart. Daniel identified himself with God's people and confessed their sins as his own and stood with them. He didn't have to. He was friends with the king because of his faithfulness to God and his righteousness before the Lord, yet he humbled himself before God and took that position and his access to God to stand with his exiled people, and God heard and met him and then gave him a vision of what was to come.

Jesus, our ultimate Intercessor, identified Himself with us to the point of the cross and death and everything else that affects us in our human condition before God, and by so doing became our Savior and Deliverer and Redeemer and everything else. Jesus didn't have to do that, except love compelled Him. What kind of love is this, I must ask? And so He emptied himself of His own position and chose to lay His life down for us and walk the depths of darkness and sin out for us. And not just for God's people, but as it turns out, for all people, Jew and Gentile alike. Which took Paul and Peter and the other apostles some time to sink in, but they eventually got it. But who can blame them? It was a new thing. Sometimes we're a little slow to catch up. :)

If you're going to pull people out of the fire, you have to be willing to go in it and get singed. If you're going to save a drowning person, sometimes you have to go into the water yourself and take that risk to your own life and get them out. Tossing a ring isn't always enough. You have to be willing to go where the rubber hits the road and where people actually are, not where you wish them to be. You have to be willing to get your hands dirty and for it to cost you something, and if need be, everything. How often do we stop short because self-preservation gets the better of us? He who seeks to save his life, will lose it. He who loses his life for Jesus' sake, will find it. That is intercession. That is the great exchange. That is entering into what God is already doing. But you also can see where that goes beyond prayer into something else entirely and becomes a way of life.

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 04:08 PM
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

He did not pray they would believe

Dani H
May 22nd 2010, 04:48 PM
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

And those are .... ????

We're all sinners before we believe and are saved. He died for the ungodly. All of us. It is not ours to judge who has potential for salvation and who doesn't. It's not ours to judge who is ready and who will receive and who won't and under what conditions. It's ours to preach equally to all and labor equally for all, and let God decide the rest. We are not God and so we cannot afford to be picky and hold back as if we knew, when we don't know.

I don't pray for people to believe. I pray for everyone to have the same shot. The Bible also says that satan blinds people's minds so that they cannot receive the Gospel. What do you do with that?

2 Corinthians 4:4
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.


I pray for laborers, as we're commanded to do, because nobody can believe unless they hear, and nobody can hear unless they're being told, and nobody gets told unless somebody goes and tells them. I pray for the veil to be lifted. I make myself available to be a laborer in whichever way God directs. There is a ton of hindrance to the Gospel out there, in a great many ways, in all parts of the world, until this day. It's up to us to work with God to see to it that those hindrances are removed. If we haven't done that, then we have nothing to say, and any theology we think we have, is worth exactly squat.

Vhayes
May 22nd 2010, 05:00 PM
If God would that all men be saved, who am I to try and determine ahead of time who will and will not be saved? I have prayed for family members as well as people I have never met that the Holy Spirit work in their hearts and in their life circumstances to bring them to Him. Is that wrong? If it is, I'll just call myself a Pharisee, feel reallllly good about the fact that I'm special and walk away now.

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 05:34 PM
And those are .... ????
Irrelevant to the fact He did not pray that they would believe. What did He pray?


Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
He prayed that those that would believe would be 'in Christ' -dead, buried, raised with Him -the cross
so that the world would believe and know the Father sent the Son. If you love one another they will know you are my disciples. Witness.

He did not pray anyone would believe.

Dani H
May 22nd 2010, 05:49 PM
Again, neither do I. I give myself so that God can remove hindrances to the Gospel, within and without. God saves those He will. He knows who is who and what is what and which is which. That's not for me to prejudge though. And I will tell you this: Every time I have labored and entered into God's work to whichever extent He has told me, it has changed me. Some get saved, others don't, but in the end, I am always changed and expanded and extended and stretched and called up to a greater degree than before, to be more effective than before, to be poured out for the Gospel and the Kingdom to a greater degree. Win-win in my book.

notuptome
May 22nd 2010, 05:50 PM
Heb 13:3 calls on us to remember them that are in bonds as bound with them. I can think of no more severe bondage than that of sin having been at one time bound myself. How better to express the love of my Christ than to make supplication to my Lord on behalf of those who still are in bondage to sin. Some one was praying for me before I received Christ as my Saviour. Likely more than one and more than a few tears fell before the Lord on my behalf.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 06:29 PM
Heb 13:3 calls on us to remember them that are in bonds as bound with them. Yes, that's literal physical prison. The kind with fences and bars.
It says
"as bound with them"
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
Heb 13:3 has nothing to do with the lost and bondage to sin.


Some one was praying for me before I received Christ as my Saviour. Likely more than one and more than a few tears fell before the Lord on my behalf.

For the cause of Christ
RogerDoesn't mean it had any bearing on your salvation.

notuptome
May 22nd 2010, 06:43 PM
Paul asked for prayer that a door of utterance might be open. Col 4:3 I cannot imagine why we would not want to pray for the lost to come to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 06:48 PM
Paul also spoke of being hindered in taking the gospel, so? Praying that a way for gospel is made is like praying for laborers. It is not praying that someone is saved. You could even pray the gospel go to a specific tribe and give what you can to make it happen. That's not praying for individuals in the tribe to be saved. We do not operate based on what we imagine we want. We pray as scripture says. We do not want to ask wrongly.

Dani H
May 22nd 2010, 07:47 PM
Is it better then to not ask at all?

It's been my experience that as I pray, the Holy Spirit gives me the words. But never until I pray.

I get to praying and laboring in order to destroy the works of satan. Who gets saved in the process of that, is God's good pleasure to achieve. It evidently also takes laboring for people to grow up in Christ. Praying and doing.

Prayerlessness = powerlessness.

losthorizon
May 22nd 2010, 07:58 PM
This said by someone that thinks work of God mean work of man.....

Men are commanded to "work the works of God" - this has always been true.


I never said we should not pray for the lost. It plainly says here we should. It just doesn't say pray for their salvation.
Should we pray they do not find salvation? Of course we should pray that the lost find salvation in the blood of Christ. I doubt that I would be saved today if it were not for the "effective, fervent prayers" of the righteous on my behalf. You appear to be a wee bit over the top here my friend. I little advise for you...
first rule of holes - when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging

losthorizon
May 22nd 2010, 08:00 PM
Paul also spoke of being hindered in taking the gospel, so? Praying that a way for gospel is made is like praying for laborers. It is not praying that someone is saved. You could even pray the gospel go to a specific tribe and give what you can to make it happen. That's not praying for individuals in the tribe to be saved. We do not operate based on what we imagine we want. We pray as scripture says. We do not want to ask wrongly.
Wow...you really need to stop digging...

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 08:00 PM
Is it better then to not ask at all?If you want to whistle in the wind, go ahead.

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 08:02 PM
Wow...you really need to stop digging...I'll do that, when scripture for this assumption is produced. ;)

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 08:05 PM
Of course we should pray that the lost find salvation in the blood of Christ.Scripture?


I doubt that I would be saved today if it were not for the "effective, fervent prayers" of the righteous on my behalf.You doubt about what you know nothing about. Who's digging holes here? :idea:

losthorizon
May 22nd 2010, 08:08 PM
I'll do that, when scripture for this assumption is produced. ;)
You are still digging - how deep will you go? Christians can and do pray that the lost find Christ. Are you saying when I pray that the lost would find salvation I am committing a sin? Are you saying that God will not hear my prayer?

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 08:31 PM
I don't pray for people to believe. I pray for everyone to have the same shot. The Bible also says that satan blinds people's minds so that they cannot receive the Gospel. What do you do with that?

2 Corinthians 4:4
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.You want to pray the gospel reach those you cannot reach great! Pray for laborers...


I pray for the veil to be lifted.What do you mean? The veil has been rent.

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 08:36 PM
Christians can and do pray that the lost find Christ.Why?


Are you saying when I pray that the lost would find salvation I am committing a sin? Are you saying that God will not hear my prayer?Asking wrongly here is not sin, it's a noble but misguided prayer. God hears all, but answers not all. He is not going to go against the free-will He gave man. Plain and simple. Pray 24/7, doesn't matter. Those that are His and have His word and truth in Him will believe. Those that do not have the word and truth in them and have the devil as their father will not. If He didn't violate free-will for Jesus, what makes you think He will for you?

Dani H
May 22nd 2010, 08:41 PM
You want to pray the gospel reach those you cannot reach great! Pray for laborers...

What do you mean? The veil has been rent.

I will continue intercede as God tells me to like He has for many years because that is where I see results. The entire point of prayer is answers and results. Otherwise it's just words floating around in space.

And if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded.

Ohhh haha, never mind, I just got a hold of something and I appreciate this interchange! Thanks! Woot! :pp

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 08:48 PM
hid is not veil
katapetasma
Mat 27:51, Mar 15:38, Luk 23:45, Heb 6:19, Heb 9:3, Heb 10:20

Dani H
May 22nd 2010, 08:57 PM
No you just helped me see why Fenris isn't saved yet. Appreciate it, thanks! :hug:

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 09:09 PM
Men are commanded to "work the works of God" - this has always been true. No, the men asked how to work the works of God (do miracles) and Jesus said believe on Him. This has always been true.

Bladers
May 22nd 2010, 09:17 PM
Ok, Sirus. I'm about to blow this thread wide open! LOL

Guess what happened when Jesus was still on earth? He prayed for peter's salvation!

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."
(Luke 22:31-32)

Here we see Jesus praying for the Salvation of peter because the devil was trying to take him away.
Sirus, I think i killed your theology about NOT praying for salvation :)

Nomad
May 22nd 2010, 10:04 PM
Why Pray for the Unsaved? This question is directed to both the Pelagian types and the Calvinist types.
To the Pelagian types isn't it an attempt to intrude on man's free will? (God will interfere with mans will giving him an unfair advantage).
To the Calvinist types. Isn't it an attempt to overthrow God's already established 'elect' amount or identities?

Scripture is clear that God has ordained not only the end, He has ordained the means to that end. We pray and evangelize because we are commanded to do so and we do it knowing that it pleases God to use us this way, making us instruments in the fulfillment of His plan of salvation. The following quote from R.C. Sproul will flesh this out.


WHAT DOES PREDESTINATION DO TO THE TASK OF EVANGELISM?

This question raises grave concerns about the mission of the Church. It is particularly weighty for evangelical Christians. If personal salvation is decided in advance by an immutable divine decree, what is the sense or urgency of the work of evangelism?

I will never forget the terrifying experience of being quizzed on this point by Dr. John Gerstner in a seminary class. There were about twenty of us seated in a semicircle in the classroom. He posed the question: “All right, gentlemen, if God has sovereignly decreed election and reprobation from all eternity, why should we be concerned about evangelism?” I breathed a sigh of relief when Gerstner started his interrogation on the left end of the semicircle since I was sitting in the last seat on the right. I took comfort in the hope that the question would never get around to me.

The comfort was short-lived. The first student replied to Gerstner’s query, “I don’t know, sir. That question has always plagued me.” The second student said, “It beats me.” The third just shook his head and dropped his gaze toward the floor. In rapid succession the students all passed on the question. The dominoes were falling in my direction.

“Well, Mr. Sproul, how would you answer?” I wanted to vanish into thin air or find a hiding place in the floorboards, but there was no escape. I stammered and muttered a reply. Dr. Gerstner said, “Speak up!” In tentative words I said, “Well, Dr. Gerstner, I know this isn’t the answer you are looking for, but one small reason we should still be concerned about evangelism is that, well, uh, you know, after all, Christ does command us to do evangelism.”

Gerstner’s eyes started to flame. He said, “Ah, I see, Mr. Sproul, one small reason is that your Savior, the Lord of Glory, the King of kings has so commanded it. A small reason, Mr. Sproul? Is it barely significant to you that the same sovereign God who sovereignly decrees your election also sovereignly commands your involvement in the task of evangelism?” Oh how I wished I’d never used the word small. I got Gerstner’s point.

Evangelism is our duty. God has commanded it. That should be enough to end the matter. But there is more. Evangelism is not only a duty; it is also a privilege. God allows us to participate in the greatest work in human history, the work of redemption. Hear what Paul says about it. He adds a chapter 10 to his famous chapter 9 of Romans:

“For “whoever calls upon the name of the LORD shall be saved.” How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!”" (Romans 10:13-15).

We notice the logic of Paul’s progression here. He lists a series of necessary conditions for people to be saved. Without sending there are no preachers. Without preachers there is no preaching. Without preaching there is no hearing of the gospel. Without the hearing of the gospel there is no believing of the gospel. Without the believing of the gospel there is no calling upon God to be saved. Without the calling upon God to be saved there is no salvation.

God not only foreordains the end of salvation for the elect, he also foreordained the means to that end. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching as the means to accomplish redemption. I suppose he could have worked out his divine purpose without us. He could publish the gospel in the clouds using his holy finger in skywriting. He could preach the gospel himself, in his own voice, shouting it from heaven. But that is not his choice.

It is a marvelous privilege to be used by God in the plan of redemption. Paul appeals to an Old Testament passage when he speaks of the beauty of the feet of those who bring good tidings and publish peace.

“How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who proclaims peace, who brings glad tiding of good things, who proclaims salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns!” Your watchmen shall lift up their voices, with their voices they shall sing together; for they shall see eye to eye when the LORD brings back Zion.


Break forth into joy, sing together, you waste places of Jerusalem! For the LORD has comforted His people, He has redeemed Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 52:7-9).

In the ancient world, news of battles and other crucial events was carried by runners. The modern marathon race is named after the Battle of Marathon because of the endurance of the messenger who carried the news of the outcome home to his people.

Lookouts were posted to watch for the approaching messengers. Their eyes were sharp and trained to the subtle nuances of the strides of the approaching runners. Those bearing bad news approached with heavy feet. Those runners bearing good news approached swiftly, with feet sprinting through the dust. Their strides revealed their excitement. For the watchmen the sight of a runner approaching rapidly in the distance with his feet skimming over the mountain was a gorgeous vision to behold.

So the Bible speaks of the beauty of the feet of those who bring us good news. When my daughter was born and the doctor came to the waiting room to announce it, I wanted to hug him. We are favorably inclined to those who bring us good tidings. I will always have a special place in my affections for the man who first told me of Christ. I know that it was God who saved me and not that man, but I still appreciate the man’s role in my salvation.

To lead people to Christ is one of the greatest personal blessings that we ever enjoy. To be a Calvinist takes no joy away from that experience. Historically, Calvinists have been strongly active in evangelism and world mission. We need only point to Edwards and Whitefield and the Great Awakening to illustrate this point.

We have a meaningful role to play in evangelism. We preach and we proclaim the gospel. That is our duty and our privilege. But it is God who brings the increase. He does not need us to accomplish his purpose, but he is pleased to use us in the task.

I once met a traveling evangelist who said to me, “Give me any man alone for fifteen minutes and I will get a decision for Christ.”

Sadly, the man really believed his own words. He was convinced that the power of conversion rested solely in his powers of persuasion.

I don’t doubt that the man was basing his claim on his past track record. He was so overbearing that I am sure there were multitudes who made decisions for Christ within fifteen minutes of being alone with him. Sure, he could make good his promise to produce a decision in fifteen minutes. What he couldn’t guarantee was a conversion in fifteen minutes. People would make decisions just to get away from him.

We must never underestimate the importance of our role in evangelism. Neither must we overestimate it. We preach. We bear witness. We provide the outward call. But God alone has the power to call a person to himself inwardly. I do not feel cheated by that. On the contrary, I feel comforted. We must do our job, trusting that God will do his.

Dr. R.C. Sproul, “Chosen By God"

Sirus
May 22nd 2010, 10:12 PM
Ok, Sirus. I'm about to blow this thread wide open! LOL

Guess what happened when Jesus was still on earth? He prayed for peter's salvation!

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."
(Luke 22:31-32)

Here we see Jesus praying for the Salvation of peter because the devil was trying to take him away.
Sirus, I think i killed your theology about NOT praying for salvation :)Nope, sorry. This is not part of the discussion. We are talking about the unsaved/lost. Not someone that already believes.

RogerW
May 22nd 2010, 11:06 PM
Why Pray for the Unsaved? This question is directed to both the Pelagian types and the Calvinist types.
To the Pelagian types isn't it an attempt to intrude on man's free will? (God will interfere with mans will giving him an unfair advantage).
To the Calvinist types. Isn't it an attempt to overthrow God's already established 'elect' amount or identities?

Hi Crossnote,

We pray because Christ commands us to, and He is our example for not only who (unbelievers) but how we aught to pray.

Lu*23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Mt*5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mt*5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Ac*7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Ac*7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Jas*5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Jas*5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
Jas*5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Jas*5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas*5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

From a Reformed perspective, we pray for all because we don't know who among mankind are God's elect. So we pray that God would use us to proclaim His gospel that His elect will be called, regenerated and saved. This is the means that God uses to bring His elect into His eternal kingdom. Prayer strengthens His people for the task He has ordained they shall walk in.

Many Blessings,
RW

RabbiKnife
May 23rd 2010, 02:51 AM
So what should non-Calvinist non-Pelegians do?

crossnote
May 23rd 2010, 04:40 AM
Hi Crossnote,

From a Reformed perspective, we pray for all because we don't know who among mankind are God's elect. So we pray that God would use us to proclaim His gospel that His elect will be called, regenerated and saved. This is the means that God uses to bring His elect into His eternal kingdom. Prayer strengthens His people for the task He has ordained they shall walk in.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger or Nomad, so just a point of clarification. The Reformed pray for all in a collective sense, correct? But if they pray for a specific person such as John Doe's salvation then they would conclude their prayer with the implication of 'nevertheless not my will but thine be done'?

Sirus
May 23rd 2010, 04:46 AM
From a Reformed perspective, we pray for all because we don't know who among mankind are God's elect. So we pray that God would use us to proclaim His gospel that His elect will be called, regenerated and saved. This is the means that God uses to bring His elect into His eternal kingdom. Prayer strengthens His people for the task He has ordained they shall walk in.
Not a passage you posted implies anything even remotely close to this, yet you say this after posting the passages as if they are somehow related. How do you do that? Seriously?

Nomad
May 23rd 2010, 09:11 AM
But if they pray for a specific person such as John Doe's salvation then they would conclude their prayer with the implication of 'nevertheless not my will but thine be done'?

Jesus prayed that way regarding his sacrifice of atonement. Do we, sinners saved by grace, have the right to expect any different?

losthorizon
May 23rd 2010, 01:28 PM
From a Reformed perspective, we pray for all because we don't know who among mankind are God's elect. So we pray that God would use us to proclaim His gospel that His elect will be called, regenerated and saved. This is the means that God uses to bring His elect into His eternal kingdom. Prayer strengthens His people for the task He has ordained they shall walk in.


Question RW – under the “Reformed perspective” of “limited atonement" – the notion that Christ died only for the elect - how do you proclaim the gospel to the lost? Wouldn't you be required to explain to a group of indigenous Amazonians that Christ may have died for your sins but we are really not not sure if He died for you or not - the odds are you are one of the many He has condemned to hell before you were born? Would this Reformed approach really offer hope to the lost? If grace is irresistible in salvation and God forces the elect to be saved why even take the gospel to the lost?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/3242792057_6dea5f1284.jpg

RogerW
May 23rd 2010, 04:37 PM
Roger or Nomad, so just a point of clarification. The Reformed pray for all in a collective sense, correct? But if they pray for a specific person such as John Doe's salvation then they would conclude their prayer with the implication of 'nevertheless not my will but thine be done'?

It is commendable to pray for all men, for how are we to know who among them are the elect? Christ taught us to pray,..."Thy kingdom God"..."Thy will be done". It is through prayer and evangelism that the kingdom of God is complete. James tells us the prayer of faith shall save the sick...should we limit this to physical sickness only? How can we? Did not Christ say He came to heal those who are sick? It's true Christ did physically heal many, but the purpose for His coming was to seek and to save the lost. The true healing He has in mind is spiritual life from spiritual death. Of course we acknowledge "Thy will be done", but that does not prevent believers from praying to the Lord, fully persuaded (believing) that He will hear our prayers of intercession on behalf of those we know and love, and also for every unsaved man. It is the prayer of faith that has great power, but when we doubt God, we close the door of prayer.

Jas*1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas*1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Heb*11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Mt*21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

God is pleased to receive every prayer from His elect, because it shows we acknowledge that only He alone can turn the hearts of those in unbelief, and this He will do for whosoever He wills. And we are diligent in our prayers and evangelism, knowing that when the last of His elect have come in, His eternal kingdom will be complete, and then He will come again to gather us to Him for all eternity!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
May 23rd 2010, 04:41 PM
Question RW – under the “Reformed perspective” of “limited atonement" – the notion that Christ died only for the elect - how do you proclaim the gospel to the lost?

Hi LH,

We proclaim the gospel assuming that all who hear are lost and in need of salvation. And through the proclamation of the gospel of salvation God will save His people from their sins. The means God has chosen to use to bring His people into His eternal kingdom is through preaching the Gospel.

Many Blessings,
RW

Nomad
May 23rd 2010, 05:20 PM
Question RW – under the “Reformed perspective” of “limited atonement" – the notion that Christ died only for the elect - how do you proclaim the gospel to the lost? Wouldn't you be required to explain to a group of indigenous Amazonians that Christ may have died for your sins but we are really not not sure if He died for you or not - the odds are you are one of the many He has condemned to hell before you were born? Would this Reformed approach really offer hope to the lost? If grace is irresistible in salvation and God forces the elect to be saved why even take the gospel to the lost?

Here we go again. Even after a comprehensive answer has been presented just a few posts back, you continue with your caricature of Reformed soteriology. Scripture commands that we present the Gospel to all without discrimination. We are not told to foolishly attempt to peer into God's eternal decrees in order to determine who will be saved and who will not be saved. That's God's business. Ours is to preach the Gospel.

Again, your answer, whether you like it or not has been given here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?210305-Why-Pray-for-the-Unsaved&p=2414785#post2414785

Sirus
May 23rd 2010, 06:04 PM
Sproul isn't an answer to anything on this matter. He is confused. The article has in its title "PREDESTINATION" then in the second paragraph and following he talks about election. They are not the same thing.

losthorizon
May 23rd 2010, 06:11 PM
Hi LH,

We proclaim the gospel assuming that all who hear are lost and in need of salvation. And through the proclamation of the gospel of salvation God will save His people from their sins. The means God has chosen to use to bring His people into His eternal kingdom is through preaching the Gospel.

Many Blessings,
RW
Is it true that Christ died for ALL men? Do ALL men who hear the gospel have the choice to believe or reject that gospel?

losthorizon
May 23rd 2010, 06:19 PM
Here we go again. Even after a comprehensive answer has been presented just a few posts back, you continue with your caricature of Reformed soteriology.
What "caricature of Reformed soteriology" would that be, exactly? Is it true that Christ died for ALL men? Do ALL men who hear the gospel have the freedom of choice to believe or reject the gospel of grace?

RogerW
May 23rd 2010, 06:52 PM
Is it true that Christ died for ALL men? Do ALL men who hear the gospel have the choice to believe or reject that gospel?

LH, no man has the choice to believe or reject the gospel, because every man is in the same state, spiritually lost, dead in trespasses and sins prior to regeneration. As such no man will choose to be saved. Therefore the gospel is offered to EVERY man, and for all who believe salvation is GIVEN, not by choice but by the will and ordinance of God Almighty!

Joh*1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh*1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

losthorizon
May 23rd 2010, 07:22 PM
LH, no man has the choice to believe or reject the gospel, because every man is in the same state, spiritually lost, dead in trespasses and sins prior to regeneration. As such no man will choose to be saved. Therefore the gospel is offered to EVERY man, and for all who believe salvation is GIVEN, not by choice but by the will and ordinance of God Almighty!


Your Calvinism teaches that fallen man does not have the ability to do that which God commands him to do because man is “Totally Depraved” but God is not a Calvinist. The biblical truth still stands - men are “totally lost” and in need of the blood of Christ. God requires fallen man to act via man's free-will to hear the word of God and receive the Christ through faith. Fallen man has the ability prior to conversion to do just that as we see throughout the NT (>>Acts 2:38) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2%3A38&version=NIV). Man can and does believe, repent and is baptized before his sins are remitted and before he receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. The notion that God forces some to believe and forces others to reject His will is a notion not supported in Holy Writ.

crossnote
May 23rd 2010, 11:58 PM
Question RW – under the “Reformed perspective” of “limited atonement" – the notion that Christ died only for the elect - how do you proclaim the gospel to the lost? Wouldn't you be required to explain to a group of indigenous Amazonians that Christ may have died for your sins but we are really not not sure if He died for you or not - the odds are you are one of the many He has condemned to hell before you were born? Would this Reformed approach really offer hope to the lost? If grace is irresistible in salvation and God forces the elect to be saved why even take the gospel to the lost?


That's fine, I'll add to the derailing of the OP post. I used to take a similar approach in challenging Calvinists. Problem is, nowhere in Scripture do you find the Apostles preaching "Christ died for you" which seems fine if Christ died for all.
What they did do was to proclaim Jesus as the Promised One who was crucified, buried and risen, who now reigns and that all men everywhere are to repent and believe the Gospel. This was basically the preached message as you read Acts.

and so...

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
(Act 13:48)

I suppose this is how we are to pray for the unsaved... Pray for all, and as many as are ordained to eternal life will believe.

Nomad
May 24th 2010, 12:26 AM
That's fine, I'll add to the derailing of the OP post. I used to take a similar approach in challenging Calvinists. Problem is, nowhere in Scripture do you find the Apostles preaching "Christ died for you" which seems fine if Christ died for all.
What they did do was to proclaim Jesus as the Promised One who was crucified, buried and risen, who now reigns and that all men everywhere are to repent and believe the Gospel. This was basically the preached message as you read Acts.

and so...

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
(Act 13:48)

I suppose this is how we are to pray for the unsaved... Pray for all, and as many as are ordained to eternal life will believe.

You have hit the nail square on the head. Excellent explanation. :thumbsup:

losthorizon
May 24th 2010, 01:25 AM
I suppose this is how we are to pray for the unsaved... Pray for all, and as many as are ordained to eternal life will believe.
We are to take the gospel to the unsaved "of the whole creation" because they are lost in their sins and need the cleaning blood of Christ. Jesus died for ALL men - those who freely hear and freely obey the gospel of grace will be saved. Those who refuse to believe will be condemned. You're getting closer.
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mar 16:15-16 ESV)Do you not believe Christ died for all men?

Sirus
May 24th 2010, 02:16 AM
I suppose this is how we are to pray for the unsaved... Pray for all, and as many as are ordained to eternal life will believe.Have any scripture?

crossnote
May 24th 2010, 03:50 AM
Have any scripture?

Rather, have any Scripture that refutes it?

LookingUp
May 24th 2010, 06:33 AM
Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. Romans 10:1

ThyWordIsTruth
May 24th 2010, 07:00 AM
Why Pray for the Unsaved? This question is directed to both the Pelagian types and the Calvinist types.
To the Pelagian types isn't it an attempt to intrude on man's free will? (God will interfere with mans will giving him an unfair advantage).
To the Calvinist types. Isn't it an attempt to overthrow God's already established 'elect' amount or identities?

I pray that God will bring about circumstances and situations that will cause a person to think, and give him understanding of God's word and open the eyes of his heart that he might understand.

I also pray for opportunities to be given me to share the Gospel.

RabbiKnife
May 24th 2010, 12:39 PM
Arminians pray that all will come to understand and accept the grace offered through Jesus Christ.

Calvinist are Winchersterian in their evangelism....shoot them all and let God sort them out.

ThyWordIsTruth
May 24th 2010, 12:59 PM
LH, no man has the choice to believe or reject the gospel, because every man is in the same state, spiritually lost, dead in trespasses and sins prior to regeneration. As such no man will choose to be saved. Therefore the gospel is offered to EVERY man, and for all who believe salvation is GIVEN, not by choice but by the will and ordinance of God Almighty!

Joh*1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh*1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Roger,
Then how did the believers in Samaria believe? For Scripture says they believed before they were regenerated. :rolleyes:

Act 8:5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ.
Act 8:6 And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip when they heard him and saw the signs that he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed.
Act 8:8 So there was much joy in that city.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
Act 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
Act 8:16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

notuptome
May 24th 2010, 01:07 PM
Try as I may I cannot fathom why a Christian would not want to pray that another would come to know the joy and peace of having their sins forgiven and posessing an inheritance in heaven forever. Why would a Christian not want to share what Christ has given them?

Ought we not to have compassion on others as Christ had compassion for us? What would make a Christian so hard of heart as to not want to pray for the lost to come to Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RogerW
May 24th 2010, 01:50 PM
Roger,
Then how did the believers in Samaria believe? For Scripture says they believed before they were regenerated. :rolleyes:

Act 8:5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ.
Act 8:6 And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip when they heard him and saw the signs that he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed.
Act 8:8 So there was much joy in that city.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
Act 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
Act 8:16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Does not the fact that they were "cut to the heart" upon hearing show they understood their depravity, and their need...they could only do this after "hearing" the gospel of salvation? They hear, receive faith through hearing, being regenerated by the power of God through His gospel applied by the Holy Spirit, then they repent, are baptized and recieve the "gift" of the Holy Spirit.

Eph*1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph*1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Peter did not say, "you will receive the Holy Spirit"...he said "the gift of the Holy Spirit." We have to remember that they had just witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit when the apostles, being filled with the Spirit began to speak in other tongues. There is ample evidence in Scripture to show the "gift" of the Holy Spirit was evidenced at that time through supernatural power. We see this is true with Simon Magus, who saw the power (gift) of the Holy Spirit and thought he could buy this power.

Ac*8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Ac*8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Ac*8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Ac*8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the GIFTof God may be purchased with money.

And again we find the "gift of the Holy Spirit" is evidenced through supernatural power when Gentiles too received the "gift" or the ability to speak in tongues.

Ac*10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.
Ac*10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

And when Peter went up to Jerusalem, he told them how that the gift of speaking in tongues they had received from the Spirit was also given unto Gentiles (Cornelius & his house).

Ac*11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Ac*11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac*11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Ac*11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Cornelius was already a man of faith "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." So the gift of the Holy Spirit he received after hearing Peter preach was confirmation that he believed.

The book of Hebrews too connects the gift of the Holy Spirit with supernatural evidence given unto man of faith.

Heb*2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb*2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

ThyWordIsTruth
May 24th 2010, 02:26 PM
Roger,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Scripture clearly says:

Act 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
Act 8:16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

you interprete "for he had not yet fallen on any of them" to mean they had yet to received the gifts of the Holy Spirit? So they were regenerated although "he had not yet fallen on any of them?"

Can you explain to me how a person can be regenerated when the Holy Spirit has "not yet fallen on them?" Who then regenerates them?

And do you also interprete "and they received the Holy Spirit" as receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Which version of the English translation adds "gifts of" before "Holy Spirit?"


Does not the fact that they were "cut to the heart" upon hearing show they understood their depravity, and their need...they could only do this after "hearing" the gospel of salvation? They hear, receive faith through hearing, being regenerated by the power of God through His gospel applied by the Holy Spirit, then they repent, are baptized and recieve the "gift" of the Holy Spirit.

Eph*1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph*1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Peter did not say, "you will receive the Holy Spirit"...he said "the gift of the Holy Spirit." We have to remember that they had just witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit when the apostles, being filled with the Spirit began to speak in other tongues. There is ample evidence in Scripture to show the "gift" of the Holy Spirit was evidenced at that time through supernatural power. We see this is true with Simon Magus, who saw the power (gift) of the Holy Spirit and thought he could buy this power.

Ac*8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Ac*8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Ac*8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Ac*8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the GIFTof God may be purchased with money.

And again we find the "gift of the Holy Spirit" is evidenced through supernatural power when Gentiles too received the "gift" or the ability to speak in tongues.

Ac*10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.
Ac*10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

And when Peter went up to Jerusalem, he told them how that the gift of speaking in tongues they had received from the Spirit was also given unto Gentiles (Cornelius & his house).

Ac*11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Ac*11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac*11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Ac*11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Cornelius was already a man of faith "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." So the gift of the Holy Spirit he received after hearing Peter preach was confirmation that he believed.

The book of Hebrews too connects the gift of the Holy Spirit with supernatural evidence given unto man of faith.

Heb*2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb*2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

RogerW
May 24th 2010, 03:29 PM
Roger,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Scripture clearly says:

Act 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
Act 8:16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

you interprete "for he had not yet fallen on any of them" to mean they had yet to received the gifts of the Holy Spirit? So they were regenerated although "he had not yet fallen on any of them?"

They had not yet (as the Jews had) received the supernatural 'sign', the gift explicitly proving that Gentile believers too would be redeemed by grace through faith. Christ tells us before the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost, "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" (Jo 14:17).



Can you explain to me how a person can be regenerated when the Holy Spirit has "not yet fallen on them?" Who then regenerates them?

The same way He did prior to Christ.



And do you also interprete "and they received the Holy Spirit" as receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Which version of the English translation adds "gifts of" before "Holy Spirit?"

The text says they laid their hands on them "and they received the Holy Spirit." How can anyone know when one receives the Holy Spirit? Answer, we cannot! Unless of course recieving the Spirit came with a supernatural sign, like speaking in tongues. And this is exactly what happened in the beginning when it was made plain that Gentiles too would receive eternal life in Christ.

Ac*10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Ac*10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac*10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Ac*11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac*11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

Ac*11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Ac*11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac*11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Ac*11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

None would have believed that Gentiles too would be added without the supernatural sign proving the Holy Spirit had fallen even on them.

LookingUp
May 24th 2010, 03:44 PM
Where does scripture say to pray for the salvation of the unsaved?Hi Sirus. In case this was lost in the shuffle, I'll post it once more. If we follow Paul's example as he tells us to (Phil 4:9), then I believe we should pray for the salvation of the unsaved like he did. "Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation" (Rom. 10:1).

Sirus
May 25th 2010, 12:38 AM
Have any scripture?
All Scripture!.............

Sirus
May 25th 2010, 12:47 AM
Try as I may I cannot fathom why a Christian would not want to pray that another would come to know the joy and peace of having their sins forgiven and posessing an inheritance in heaven forever. Why would a Christian not want to share what Christ has given them?I can't either. You know a Christians that does not pray for laborers and does not share the gospel?


Ought we not to have compassion on others as Christ had compassion for us? What would make a Christian so hard of heart as to not want to pray for the lost to come to Christ?I don't know. I doubt they are Christian if they do not have the love of God. That said, where did Jesus pray believers would believe?

Sirus
May 25th 2010, 01:26 AM
Hi Sirus. In case this was lost in the shuffle, I'll post it once more. If we follow Paul's example as he tells us to (Phil 4:9), then I believe we should pray for the salvation of the unsaved like he did. "Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation" (Rom. 10:1).
The true reading of "for Israel" is "for them", who is found here.


Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Now if you look at what Jesus said about them, for example throughout the gospel of John, and what He said will happen to those that stumbled at that stumblingstone, you'd know this is a futile prayer, and that Paul is expressing the same love of God Jesus had as a Hen wanting to gather her chicks. They would not. Jesus not only said they would not but that they could not. This prayer goes against everything scripture says about those that hated Christ. I don't find this likely.

The other option is that the true reading of "for Israel" is "for them", who is found here.


Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Now if it means that is what he prayed 'God save them', you are right and I am wrong. Wait, save whoever believes? Nope that doesn't work.
If he followed his Lord and scripture and prayed for utterance of the gospel/prayed for laborers to reach the ears of those that would believe, he prayed for the salvation of whoever believes. Those that are willing to do His will and have the word and truth in them, will hear, Jesus said. They can't hear without a preacher.


2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

crossnote
May 25th 2010, 02:55 AM
So far I kind of see why the Calvinist will pray. (That those ordained to life will be affected).
But I am still somewhat miffed as to why the Pelagian/Arminian will pray for the unsaved. I mean, do you really want God to impose His will on a man's free will?
Isn't that inconsistent with the doctrine of free will? I suppose we all live with some happy inconsistencies as we see through a glass darkly.

Nomad
May 25th 2010, 03:05 AM
So far I kind of see why the Calvinist will pray. (That those ordained to life will be affected).
But I am still somewhat miffed as to why the Pelagian/Arminian will pray for the unsaved. I mean, do you really want God to impose His will on a man's free will?
Isn't that inconsistent with the doctrine of free will?

Once again, you've hit the nail square on its head. :thumbsup:

SeattleSun
May 25th 2010, 03:31 AM
What a sad, sad thread. No grace and no understanding of the glorious grace of the Father from so many who proclaim to have received. I can testify that His elect still need intercession to see the truth and to submit to His Lordship and so can Pastor S.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/1533.htm

Yes, it's fear.

Pardon me if I'm not showing much grace myself in this short post -- I fully realize it.

losthorizon
May 25th 2010, 03:42 AM
So far I kind of see why the Calvinist will pray. (That those ordained to life will be affected).
But I am still somewhat miffed as to why the Pelagian/Arminian will pray for the unsaved. I mean, do you really want God to impose His will on a man's free will?
Isn't that inconsistent with the doctrine of free will? I suppose we all live with some happy inconsistencies as we see through a glass darkly.
Are you saying that man's free-choice to obey the gospel of grace or be eternally separated from God somehow requires God to impose His will on man's free will? Isn't man free to either obey or resist God?
“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.” ~ Tertullian

Sirus
May 25th 2010, 03:52 AM
So far I kind of see why the Calvinist will pray. (That those ordained to life will be affected).
But I am still somewhat miffed as to why the Pelagian/Arminian will pray for the unsaved. I mean, do you really want God to impose His will on a man's free will?
Isn't that inconsistent with the doctrine of free will?I'd like an answer to this as well.

LookingUp
May 25th 2010, 03:55 AM
The true reading of "for Israel" is "for them", who is found here.


Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Now if you look at what Jesus said about them, for example throughout the gospel of John, and what He said will happen to those that stumbled at that stumblingstone, you'd know this is a futile prayer, and that Paul is expressing the same love of God Jesus had as a Hen wanting to gather her chicks.Paul prayed a futile prayer? So, if we follow Paul’s example in this case, our efforts will also be futile? I wonder what other examples of Paul we follow are simply futile?

So those for whom Paul prayed were without hope during their lifetime? They had no chance to repent during their lifetime? Where does it say that?


They would not. Jesus not only said they would not but that they could not.Where does it say they could not? And does this say they could not ever during their lifetime?


This prayer goes against everything scripture says about those that hated Christ. I don't find this likely.Did Paul hate Christ at one time in his life?


The other option is that the true reading of "for Israel" is "for them", who is found here.


Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Now if it means that is what he prayed 'God save them', you are right and I am wrong. Wait, save whoever believes? Nope that doesn't work.
If he followed his Lord and scripture and prayed for utterance of the gospel/prayed for laborers to reach the ears of those that would believe, he prayed for the salvation of whoever believes. Those that are willing to do His will and have the word and truth in them, will hear, Jesus said. They can't hear without a preacher.


2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here, but I know what Paul said. He said his prayer to God was for their salvation, which means that during his prayer they were not saved. If we look further into chapter 10 and 11 we see that those Paul prayed for were those who were broken off for their unbelief (Rom. 11:20), because they had sought righteousness as though it were by works rather than by faith (Rom. 9:32), and that these unbelievers who were not saved could be grafted back in if they did not continue in their unbelief (Rom. 11:23). Wasn’t Paul broken off for unbelief and grafted back in due to his belief?

Paul prayed for the salvation of unbelievers and so should we.

LookingUp
May 25th 2010, 03:58 AM
So far I kind of see why the Calvinist will pray. (That those ordained to life will be affected).
But I am still somewhat miffed as to why the Pelagian/Arminian will pray for the unsaved. I mean, do you really want God to impose His will on a man's free will?
Isn't that inconsistent with the doctrine of free will? I suppose we all live with some happy inconsistencies as we see through a glass darkly.We all can impose our will on man's free will. Why can't God?

Nomad
May 25th 2010, 11:53 AM
...But I am still somewhat miffed as to why the Pelagian/Arminian will pray for the unsaved. I mean, do you really want God to impose His will on a man's free will?
Isn't that inconsistent with the doctrine of free will?

There is an excellent question here. asked by crossnote, that has yet to receive an answer. I find it amazing that Arminians will pray like Calvinists, asking God to intercede effectively in the salvation of individuals, while at the same time denying the Biblical fact of man's spiritual inability and God's sovereignty. Since, according to Arminianism, unregenerate man isn't really dead in trespasses and sin and God would never impose his will on anyone, why pray for sinners? What's God going to do?

Charles Spurgeon penned what a consistent Arminian prayer should look like.


Excerpt from Spurgeon's Sermon: Free Will- A Slave
The Prayer of the Arminian

...Any one who believes that man's will is entirely free, and that he can be saved by it, does not believe the fall...

But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him. You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that. Ah! when they are preaching and talking very slowly, there may be wrong doctrine; but when they come to pray, the true thing slips out; they cannot help it. If a man talks very slowly, he may speak in a fine manner; but when he comes to talk fast, the old brogue of his country, where he was born, slips out. I ask you again, did you ever meet a Christian man who said, "I came to Christ without the power of the Spirit?" If you ever did meet such a man, you need have no hesitation in saying, "My dear sir, I quite believe it-and I believe you went away again without the power of the Spirit, and that you know nothing about the matter, and are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity." Do I hear one Christian man saying, "I sought Jesus before he sought me; I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me"? No, beloved; we are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts and say-

"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes to o'erflow;
'Twas grace that kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."

Charles Haddon Spurgeon

RabbiKnife
May 25th 2010, 12:46 PM
I'd like an answer to this as well.

No, it is not inconsistent at all. Arminians believe that God gives grace to all, and that God desires that all should come to believe in Christ. Why would an Arminian not align their will with the will of God and ask God to reveal Himself to the unbeliever in such glory that the unbeliever accepts the grace offered.

Folks should actually read what Arminius taught before going off half-cocked on unsupported and silly hypotheticals.

RabbiKnife
May 25th 2010, 12:47 PM
Of course Arminians believe in both sovereignty and in the depravity of man.

What Chick Comic Book version of Arminianism are you guys taking your information from?

And Spurgeon was wrong on this point.

Nomad
May 25th 2010, 01:13 PM
Of course Arminians believe in both sovereignty and in the depravity of man.

What Chick Comic Book version of Arminianism are you guys taking your information from?

And Spurgeon was wrong on this point.

1. No... most Arminians are semi-pelagian. They believe man is spiritually sick, not dead as Scripture saith.

2. Thanks for the insult, but I started out my Christian walk as a rabid Arminian so I am well aware of what Arminians believe.

3. No... Spurgeon was dead on right. If Arminians were consistent with their own soteriology they would pray exactly as Spurgeon outlined.

I eagerly await an Arminian response to post # 76.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?210305-Why-Pray-for-the-Unsaved&p=2416205#post2416205

John146
May 25th 2010, 01:24 PM
Hi LH,

We proclaim the gospel assuming that all who hear are lost and in need of salvation. And through the proclamation of the gospel of salvation God will save His people from their sins. The means God has chosen to use to bring His people into His eternal kingdom is through preaching the Gospel.

Many Blessings,
RWHow would you answer a person if they asked you what they had to do to be saved?

Slug1
May 25th 2010, 01:24 PM
Aren't we all "un-believers" until we accept Christ? We all have the sin of un-belief until we decide to accept and serve God. So why wouldn't we as believers, pray for un-believers... we all were the recipients of such prayers once in our life.

RogerW
May 25th 2010, 01:42 PM
How would you answer a person if they asked you what they had to do to be saved?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!

Vhayes
May 25th 2010, 01:52 PM
There is an excellent question here. asked by crossnote, that has yet to receive an answer. I find it amazing that Arminians will pray like Calvinists, asking God to intercede effectively in the salvation of individuals, while at the same time denying the Biblical fact of man's spiritual inability and God's sovereignty. Since, according to Arminianism, unregenerate man isn't really dead in trespasses and sin and God would never impose his will on anyone, why pray for sinners? What's God going to do?

Charles Spurgeon penned what a consistent Arminian prayer should look like.
I don't want to get embroiled in this but I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

I pray for unbelievers salvation because i wish for them to make educated decisions. Therefore i ask that God work in their lives, move in their circumstances, to allow them to hear Him.

i pray for unbelievers salvation because while God knows who will and who will not accept His offer, I certainly don't. My "job" is to show mercy and be a witness of His ability to save.

I hope this doesn't throw things off track too much.
V

RabbiKnife
May 25th 2010, 01:55 PM
1. No... most Arminians are semi-pelagian. They believe man is spiritually sick, not dead as Scripture saith.

2. Thanks for the insult, but I started out my Christian walk as a rabid Arminian so I am well aware of what Arminians believe.

3. No... Spurgeon was dead on right. If Arminians were consistent with their own soteriology they would pray exactly as Spurgeon outlined.

I eagerly await an Arminian response to post # 76.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?210305-Why-Pray-for-the-Unsaved&p=2416205#post2416205

I did respond to post #76...you just don't like the answer.

I'm not sure what a "rabid Arminian" is, but Arminius was not one. Perversions of what he taught may make for nice caricatures, but Arminius certainly believed in both sovereignty of God and depravity of man.

John146
May 25th 2010, 02:06 PM
LH, no man has the choice to believe or reject the gospel, because every man is in the same state, spiritually lost, dead in trespasses and sins prior to regeneration. As such no man will choose to be saved. Therefore the gospel is offered to EVERY man, and for all who believe salvation is GIVEN, not by choice but by the will and ordinance of God Almighty!

Joh*1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh*1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.This passage does not support what you're saying at all. What you don't seem to understand is that one does not become a son (child) of God (born of God) and saved until after they receive Christ. What does it mean to receive Christ?

The Greek word translated as "received" in John 1:12 is lambanō. The word has various meanings, but all relate to taking something by accepting something that is offered or by force. Its use in John 1:12 most likely falls within this definition as given by Strong's Greek Lexicon:

d) to take

1) to admit, receive
2) to receive what is offered
3) not to refuse or reject
4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,

To receive Christ is to accept Him, to "believe on His name" (John 1:12). It has to do with acknowledging His death and resurrection and also accepting Him as one's personal Lord and Savior. This involves a willful act on the part of a person and is not something that is forced by God. No matter how much you want to think that God forces salvation upon people it simply is not the case. One becomes a child of God and born of God after willingly accepting Jesus Christ as one's personal Lord and Savior.

Your interpretation of the passage as a whole is based on a misinterpretation of verse 13. When a person is regenerated that act of regeneration is all God's doing because it is performed by the Holy Spirit. We can all agree on that. That is all verse 13 is saying, but you read things into it that were not intended. Any person can choose to accept Christ and all people have the ability to do so, though not all do. That is because of free will. Since all people have a free choice to make it's not surprising that not all will make the same choice.

But when it comes to regenerating a person's heart and mind to see things as God sees them that is a work of the Holy Spirit within a person. Nowhere does scripture teach that a person must be regenerated before they are able to recognize that they are a sinner and/or before they are able to recognize the opportunity to have eternal life if they humble themselves, acknowledge their sins and accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. But in order to grow in the faith and become fruitful one needs the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so that they can then begin to learn how to walk in the Spirit so that they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:16-18) and instead obey God's will.

So, John 1:13 is not saying that man plays no part at all in becoming a child of God. It's not saying that man has no choice in the matter. We can see from John 1:12 that man's part is to receive (accept, embrace, surrender to) Christ which requires a willing choice. All people are able to choose to either accept or reject Christ. If that was not the case then it would make no sense to condemn people for not believing in Christ (John 3:18). The point of John 1:13 is the same point Jesus makes in John 3:1-8, which is that being born of the Spirit is a spiritual birth, not physical. There is no reason to read anything more into the verse than that.

Instead, what the verse is saying is that the act of regeneration which turns a person into a child of God is entirely performed by God and not "of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man". It's not being born of blood because it's a spiritual birth rather than natural and physical. It's not of the will of the flesh or of man because we can't renew our own hearts or force the Holy Spirit to indwell us and make us children of God. We don't regenerate ourselves and we can't regenerate another person. All we can do is choose whether or not to receive Christ and once someone does accept Christ the Holy Spirit then comes to dwell in that person and regenerates their hearts and minds.

John146
May 25th 2010, 02:10 PM
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!You would give that answer to any person in the world who asked you that question, right? So, that means every person in the world has the ability to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, right? That would have to be true, otherwise you would be lying. You wouldn't want to tell a person who supposedly does not have the ability to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order for them to be saved because that wouldn't be true for them.

John146
May 25th 2010, 02:23 PM
Your Calvinism teaches that fallen man does not have the ability to do that which God commands him to do because man is “Totally Depraved” but God is not a Calvinist. The biblical truth still stands - men are “totally lost” and in need of the blood of Christ. God requires fallen man to act via man's free-will to hear the word of God and receive the Christ through faith. Fallen man has the ability prior to conversion to do just that as we see throughout the NT (>>Acts 2:38) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2%3A38&version=NIV). Man can and does believe, repent and is baptized before his sins are remitted and before he receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. The notion that God forces some to believe and forces others to reject His will is a notion not supported in Holy Writ.All are sinners, but Calvinists believe all are walking zombies who are incapable of making moral choices unless God regenerates them. There is one big problem with their belief. It's not taught anywhere in scripture. I see people who are dead in their sins making moral choices all the time. So, why can't they also choose whether or not to humble themselves and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? Where does scripture teach that some people are not capable of doing that? Nowhere that I have seen.

People are condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18). I'd like someone to show me even one verse that teaches that people are condemned for not doing something (believing in Christ) that they (supposedly) never had the ability to do. That would be like condemning someone for not flying despite them not having the ability to do so. It only makes sense that people are condemned for not believing in Christ because they could have chosen to do so but didn't when they had the opportunity.

John146
May 25th 2010, 02:31 PM
Does not the fact that they were "cut to the heart" upon hearing show they understood their depravity, and their need...they could only do this after "hearing" the gospel of salvation? They hear, receive faith through hearing, being regenerated by the power of God through His gospel applied by the Holy Spirit, then they repent, are baptized and recieve the "gift" of the Holy Spirit. Why would they need to receive the Holy Spirit after already supposedly having previously been regenerated by the Holy Spirit? To be regenerated is to be spiritually born which requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within a person. Do you think that the Holy Spirit comes in and regenerates a person, leaves the person and then comes back a little later to dwell in that person? I believe a person is regenerated upon receiving the Holy Spirit. I see no reason to think that the Spirit would come in and regenerate a person, leave the person, and then later come back to dwell in that person.

RogerW
May 25th 2010, 02:39 PM
You would give that answer to any person in the world who asked you that question, right? So, that means every person in the world has the ability to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, right?

(1) Yes................
(2) No.................

RogerW
May 25th 2010, 02:41 PM
Why would they need to receive the Holy Spirit after already supposedly having previously been regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

They already had the Holy Spirit...what they received was the "sign" proving this was so.

John146
May 25th 2010, 03:05 PM
There is an excellent question here. asked by crossnote, that has yet to receive an answer. I find it amazing that Arminians will pray like Calvinists, asking God to intercede effectively in the salvation of individualsWhy would Calvinists pray for that when in their view it's already been predetermined? Why do you pray at all in relation to salvation when you believe it was all already predetermined by God before the foundation of the world?


while at the same time denying the Biblical fact of man's spiritual inability and God's sovereignty.What do you mean by man's spiritual inability? Also, no one denies God's sovereignty. We just have a different understanding of what it means for God to be sovereign. I believe God sovereignly chose to make man responsible to choose whether or not to humble himself and put his faith and trust in Jesus Christ.


Since, according to Arminianism, unregenerate man isn't really dead in trespasses and sinAgain, no one is saying that unregenerate man is not dead in trespasses and sin so you're making another straw man argument. We just have a different understanding of what that means. You take it to mean that unregenerate man is not able to recognize that he is a lost sinner and that humbling himself and putting his faith and trust in Christ is his only way to receive forgiveness and salvation. I don't see any scripture that teaches that.


and God would never impose his will on anyone, why pray for sinners? What's God going to do? What God does is have the gospel preached to people because people need to hear the gospel before they can believe it. As Paul asked, "how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?". So, what I do is pray that God will ensure that everyone hears the gospel clearly. I pray that God will enable all people to hear the gospel clearly preached, away from distractions, so that they will have the opportunity to consider what they've heard and decide how to respond to what they've heard.

We can see from the parable of the sower various reasons for people's unbelief. For some the enemy quickly comes in and distracts them with something else, such as a false religion or cult and they reject the gospel and follow something else. Some believe at first but then riches or the cares of the world consume them and they don't fully surrender and make a full commitment to Christ. Their allegiance remains with the world rather than Christ in those cases. Some believe at first but once they see that they have to suffer tribulation and persecution for their faith they fall away and don't follow through with a full commitment to Christ. They believe in Him but aren't willing to suffer for Him. They aren't willing to make Him the Lord of their lives at whatever cost is necessary. They build their house upon the sand rather than the Rock so their house crumbles to the ground.

So, I pray that when the gospel is preached to people it's made clear to them that they have to be willing to put Christ first in their lives, even over their famillies and jobs and their material possessions. I also pray that people are told that putting their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior may very well result in trouble and persecution for them because of their faith. If people are made aware of these things right off the bat then it may make it less likely that those things will cause them to fall away and never surrender their lives to Christ. If people are going to choose to follow Christ they need to understand what that entails so I pray that God will help people see that so that it doesn't catch them off guard later on.

John146
May 25th 2010, 03:07 PM
(1) Yes................
(2) No.................Since your second answer is no that means by telling a non-elect person that they should believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved would be a lie. Why would you not tell them that it's possible that there may be nothing they can do to be saved since you don't believe all have the ability to believe?


They already had the Holy Spirit...what they received was the "sign" proving this was so.Where is your scriptural support for this? Scripture does not speak of receiving a sign of the Holy Spirit so why are you promoting such a thing?

RogerW
May 25th 2010, 03:31 PM
Since your second answer is no that means by telling a non-elect person that they should believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved would be a lie. Why would you not tell them that it's possible that there may be nothing they can do to be saved since you don't believe all have the ability to believe?

God does not tell us who are His elect....He simply tells us to proclaim the gospel to all people and pray for all people, and leave salvation to Him! For Salvation is of the Lord, and He will save His people from their sins!

John146
May 25th 2010, 04:22 PM
God does not tell us who are His elect....He simply tells us to proclaim the gospel to all people and pray for all people, and leave salvation to Him! For Salvation is of the Lord, and He will save His people from their sins!This does not address my question. Are you telling me that you wouldn't tell a person who asked you how to be saved that it was entirely up to the Lord and there was nothing they can do to be saved except wait and see if God makes them willing to believe in Christ? You would just vaguely tell them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ without expanding on what that means and how you believe that comes about?

If you answered "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" and they asked you what that means, what would you say?

LookingUp
May 25th 2010, 05:42 PM
The true reading of "for Israel" is "for them", who is found here.


Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Now if you look at what Jesus said about them, for example throughout the gospel of John, and what He said will happen to those that stumbled at that stumblingstone, you'd know this is a futile prayer, and that Paul is expressing the same love of God Jesus had as a Hen wanting to gather her chicks. They would not. Jesus not only said they would not but that they could not. This prayer goes against everything scripture says about those that hated Christ. I don't find this likely.

The other option is that the true reading of "for Israel" is "for them", who is found here.


Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Now if it means that is what he prayed 'God save them', you are right and I am wrong. Wait, save whoever believes? Nope that doesn't work.
If he followed his Lord and scripture and prayed for utterance of the gospel/prayed for laborers to reach the ears of those that would believe, he prayed for the salvation of whoever believes. Those that are willing to do His will and have the word and truth in them, will hear, Jesus said. They can't hear without a preacher.


2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Sirus, you’re making this too hard. Paul wrote that his prayer for unsaved Israel was for their salvation. It’s that simple—he prayed for the salvation of the unsaved. These same unsaved folks were those that could be grafted back into the olive tree IF they did not continue in their unbelief (Rom. 11:23).

John146
May 25th 2010, 05:57 PM
Sirus, you’re making this too hard. Paul wrote that his prayer for unsaved Israel was for their salvation. It’s that simple—he prayed for the salvation of the unsaved. These same unsaved folks were those that could be grafted back into the olive tree IF they did not continue in their unbelief (Rom. 11:23).Exactly. Paul hoped that he could help save some of the very ones who were broken off the olive tree.

Rom 11
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Calvinists would say those who were broken off were hopeless and broken off forever because they were not among the elect remnant Paul mentioned. No, they were not hopeless. As Paul said in Romans 11:23, they had the opportunity to be grafted in again if they did not continue in their unbelief and some of them did not continue in their unbelief and were grafted back in.

Nomad
May 25th 2010, 08:14 PM
Why would Calvinists pray for that when in their view it's already been predetermined? Why do you pray at all in relation to salvation when you believe it was all already predetermined by God before the foundation of the world?

I already answered this on either the first or second page of this thread.



What do you mean by man's spiritual inability?

Spiritual inability means that no man is able to turn to God in faith before God graciously grants that faith through regeneration.

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake...

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth...



Again, no one is saying that unregenerate man is not dead in trespasses and sin so you're making another straw man argument. We just have a different understanding of what that means.

You're right. The Calvinist doesn't read "sick" where the text says "dead." The Arminian empties the phrase of its meaning. Dead men do not make themselves alive nor do they make choices. It's God who "makes alive."

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved...

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses...

RabbiKnife
May 25th 2010, 08:29 PM
I'm glad I was predestined to be Arminian....or is that I chose not to be a Calvinist?

Nomad
May 25th 2010, 08:40 PM
I don't want to get embroiled in this...

Is that possible in a thread like this? It's the nature of the message board beast. :D



I pray for unbelievers salvation because i wish for them to make educated decisions. Therefore i ask that God work in their lives, move in their circumstances, to allow them to hear Him.

That sounds a lot like God imposing His will on a persons life. But for the sake of the argument let's say that God "working in their lives" and "moving in their circumstances" doesn't amount to the imposition of God's will into that person's life. How confident could you be with prayers that may never be realized no matter how hard God tries to grant your request? After all, according to the Arminian view, the final say in salvation belongs to the sinner.

In any case, I appreciate your peaceful, non-hostile response.

Nomad
May 25th 2010, 09:11 PM
Perversions of what he taught may make for nice caricatures, but Arminius certainly believed in both sovereignty of God and depravity of man.

That may be true for Classical and Wesleyan Arminianism, but most who fly the Arminian flag today are actually pelagian or semi-pelagian. They do not believe in Total Depravity and unwittingly give lip service to the idea that God is sovereign. For them God is sovereign, except when it comes to "violating" man's free will in salvation. This view of God's sovereignty is an oxymoron. God is sovereign except....

So no... I have perverted nothing nor have I argued against caricatures. One would be hard pressed to find Classical or Wesleyan Arminians today among the masses. I think you already know that.

John146
May 25th 2010, 09:12 PM
Spiritual inability means that no man is able to turn to God in faith before God graciously grants that faith through regeneration.That's a definition you came up with but that concept can't be found in scripture.


Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.This verse does not apply to all people. It is not saying that no one is capable of seeking God. You have to read it in context.

Romans 3
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

It is specifically referring to the wicked who believe there is no God. The above passage is quoted from these OT passages:

Psalm 14 (also Psalm 53)
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Psalm 5
8Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.
9For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
10Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
11But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
12For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

Notice that the ones who are said to not understand and seek God are those who say in their heart that there is no God and who "eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD". They are those who are "swift to shed blood". Are all people "swift to shed blood"? No. They are the kind of people that David described as his enemies. Were all people his enemies? No. Did David himself not seek God? Sure he did. Those fools who say there is no God and don't seek God are contrasted with God's people who do seek Him and call upon Him. If no one at all seeks God then explain these passages:

Psalm 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."The Father grants those who choose to believe to come to Christ. He knows beforehand who will believe and who will not. This passage doesn't support your doctrine whatsoever.


Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake...Do all believers suffer for Christ's sake? No. God grants some the privilege to suffer for His sake. It might seem strange to some that it would be considered a privilege, but it is. He also grants the opportunity to believe in Christ but He doesn't force anyone to believe. There is absolutely no scripture that teaches that God forces man to believe or "makes them willing to believe" as another poster likes to put it.


1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. This is related specifically to the deep things of God not to the ability to recognize that one is a sinner and needs to humble themselves and accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. You are taking all of these verses out of context. Even babes in Christ are not able to understand the deep things of God. Again, you are not reading the verses in context. You need to read the prior verses and the verses that follow it to see the context.

1 Cor 2
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Those babes in Christ that Paul was speaking to were acting like the natural man. He called them carnal. As long as they looked at things carnally they were not able to understand and spiritually discern the deep things of God, the meat of His word. That is what 1 Cor 2:14 is about.


2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth... Again, this is speaking about God granting them the opportunity to repent. Other scritpure tells us that God is longsuffering and desires for all people to repent and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3-6, Eze 18:23, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31) but His patience does eventually run out. That's why it says in Isaiah 55:6-7 to seek Him while He may be found. People are given plenty of opportunities to repent, but not forever.


You're right. The Calvinist doesn't read "sick" where the text says "dead." The Arminian empties the phrase of its meaning. Dead men do not make themselves alive nor do they make choices.Jesus describes them as being sick.

Matt 9
10And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

To be dead in one's sins is to be spiritually sick because of sin and in need of spiritual healing and forgiveness. It's not the same as being physically dead where a person obviously can no longer do anything physically. Show me scripture that says those who are dead in their sins cannot make choices. Jesus came to call them to do just that, to choose to repent and believe in Him or else face the consequences of not doing so.


It's God who "makes alive."Of course. Once a person humbles themselves and puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior then the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them and make them spiritually alive and no longer dead in their sins.

RabbiKnife
May 25th 2010, 09:14 PM
I know thousands of them.

God is sovereign, and part of his sovereign decision making has been to create man as a free moral agent. That doesn't defeat sovereignty at all; it confirms it.

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 01:25 AM
Paul prayed a futile prayer?I didn't say that at all.

ThyWordIsTruth
May 26th 2010, 01:26 AM
There is an excellent question here. asked by crossnote, that has yet to receive an answer. I find it amazing that Arminians will pray like Calvinists, asking God to intercede effectively in the salvation of individuals, while at the same time denying the Biblical fact of man's spiritual inability and God's sovereignty. Since, according to Arminianism, unregenerate man isn't really dead in trespasses and sin and God would never impose his will on anyone, why pray for sinners? What's God going to do?

Charles Spurgeon penned what a consistent Arminian prayer should look like.

For me I pray according to Scriptures, that God will give them underdstanding as the word is preached to them. That God will give us an opportunity for us to share the Gospel in our conversation. That God will be merciful and not harden them in judgement but give them understanding, opening the eyes and ears of their hearts to listen to the words of God. That the Holy Spirit will convict them of their sins as the Gospel is preached so that they'll submit and repent before God. That God will remove all distractions and work of the enemy when the Gospel is being shared.

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 01:28 AM
Where does it say they could not?Throughout the gospel of John...
do you really need chapter and verse?



And does this say they could not ever during their lifetime?how would they get the word and truth God gave and revealed to them, back in them, after rejecting them?

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 01:30 AM
Did Paul hate Christ at one time in his life?
No. He was pricked in His heart.

ThyWordIsTruth
May 26th 2010, 01:51 AM
You're right. The Calvinist doesn't read "sick" where the text says "dead." The Arminian empties the phrase of its meaning. Dead men do not make themselves alive nor do they make choices. It's God who "makes alive."

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved...

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses...

Nomad,
How do you explain this passage which clearly gives us the sequence? I try asking you hoping that you have more a more honest approach to biblical hermaneutics. Up till now the explaination I've heard is ridiculous and severely mangles and twists Scripture every which way in order to make it fit Calvinist theology. I look forward to an answer which takes an honest approach to Scripture.

Act 8:5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ.
Act 8:6 And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip when they heard him and saw the signs that he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed.
Act 8:8 So there was much joy in that city.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
Act 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
Act 8:16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Just a reminder, believers are regenerated and placed into the kingdom of God when they are baptized by the Holy Spirit. There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit, that which happens at regeneration.

1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

If you're not baptized by the Spirit, you're not in Christ's body, you're not saved.

Well, Acts 8:16 says clearly they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, they were not baptized by the Spirit, so they were not regenerated.

This example clearly shows that they believed before they were regenerated.

How do you explain this, according to the Calvinist doctrine of "Totaly Depravity?"

LookingUp
May 26th 2010, 01:58 AM
No. He pricked in His heart.Hi Sirus. Instead of expanding this, I chose to write post #95 (trying to keep it simple). Let me know if you have any questions about that.

ThyWordIsTruth
May 26th 2010, 02:05 AM
That may be true for Classical and Wesleyan Arminianism, but most who fly the Arminian flag today are actually pelagian or semi-pelagian. They do not believe in Total Depravity and unwittingly give lip service to the idea that God is sovereign. For them God is sovereign, except when it comes to "violating" man's free will in salvation. This view of God's sovereignty is an oxymoron. God is sovereign except....


I really find it funny the way Calvinists define Sovereignty.

To the Calvinist, in order for God to be Sovereign, He must be a puppet master. He must be an autocratic dictoator that gives no choice to anyone, and does not allow anyone to freely make the decision to love or reject Him.

Look at the world around you. Does everyone love God? Do all worship and obey Him? Why not? Is God not Soverign then, according to your definition? Why do people murder, rape, worship Satan, do all kinds of evil? Is God not Sovereign? Or would you go so low as to say God is the one who made these people rape, murder, steal and do all kinds of evil things?

If God is Sovereign, according to your definition, all the demons would still be angels serving God obediently in heaven, and the entire human race would be lovely and sinless living in Paradise up till today. Why aren't they? Isn't this the biggest contradiction to the Calvinist definition of Sovereignty?

Is God any less Sovereign, if in his Sovereignty, he has given men free will to choose to love or reject Him freely? To obey and disobey? So you say God is Sovereign, but God has no right to choose to do that? God has no right to be just, righteous, gracious and loving, in order to be Sovereign?

So Sovereign = Egomaniac, autocratic, puppet master?

This isn't how Scripture describes God at all. Christ is humble and lowly in heart. When reviled, he reviled not back. Consider how Christ paints the Heavenly Father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. The Father pulls up his garment and runs to the prodigal son, something a Middle Eastern gentleman would never do, it is a highly undignified action. And running to accept your prodigal son who has demanded his inheritance and left his family would leave a Middle Eastern gentleman ostracized by his neighbours in the entire village, and is utterly humiliating. Does the picture of God that Christ painted fit the Calvinist picture of God?

So in your idea of Sovereignty, God has no choice? God cannot choose the way he wants to make his creation? He must make them robots otherwise he is less Sovereign?

losthorizon
May 26th 2010, 02:29 AM
They do not believe in Total Depravity and unwittingly give lip service to the idea that God is sovereign.

The truth is my friend most folks reject the non-biblical notion of Total Depravity because it is totally wrong. God requires fallen man to act via man's free-will to hear the word of God and receive the Christ, believing on His name. Fallen man has the ability to do just that as we see throughout the NT and God remains sovereign. God does not force a few to believe and force many to disbelieve - that is not the God we serve. Man must “choose you this day whom you will serve”.

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 02:34 AM
The other option is that the true reading of "for Israel" is "for them", who is found here.


Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Now if it means that is what he prayed 'God save them', you are right and I am wrong. Wait, save whoever believes? Nope that doesn't work.
If he followed his Lord and scripture and prayed for utterance of the gospel/prayed for laborers to reach the ears of those that would believe, he prayed for the salvation of whoever believes. Those that are willing to do His will and have the word and truth in them, will hear, Jesus said. They can't hear without a preacher.


2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here, but I know what Paul said. He said his prayer to God was for their salvation, which means that during his prayer they were not saved. What did Paul pray for those that would believe? He prayed for their salvation. It does not say he prayed they would believe. Praying for laborers would be praying for the salvation of those that would believe when they heard, would it not? He did what he did for the elect, not for the non-elect.


If we look further into chapter 10 and 11 we see that those Paul prayed for were those who were broken off for their unbelief (Rom. 11:20),How do you know his prayer wasn't for those that would believe? What scripture would you use to say he prayed for those that did not have the word and truth in them? Jesus didn't. Why would Paul?


Wasn’t Paul broken off for unbelief and grafted back in due to his belief?Was he? What scripture do you have for this?


Paul prayed for the salvation of unbelievers and so should we.Yes he did, what did he pray for those that would believe?

Nomad
May 26th 2010, 02:47 AM
Nomad,
How do you explain this passage which clearly gives us the sequence? I try asking you hoping that you have more a more honest approach to biblical hermaneutics. Up till now the explaination I've heard is ridiculous and severely mangles and twists Scripture every which way in order to make it fit Calvinist theology. I look forward to an answer which takes an honest approach to Scripture.

Act 8:5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ.
Act 8:6 And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip when they heard him and saw the signs that he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed.
Act 8:8 So there was much joy in that city.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
Act 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
Act 8:16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Just a reminder, believers are regenerated and placed into the kingdom of God when they are baptized by the Holy Spirit. There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit, that which happens at regeneration.

1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

If you're not baptized by the Spirit, you're not in Christ's body, you're not saved.

Well, Acts 8:16 says clearly they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, they were not baptized by the Spirit, so they were not regenerated.

This example clearly shows that they believed before they were regenerated.

How do you explain this, according to the Calvinist doctrine of "Totaly Depravity?"

The problem here is that you assume that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same a regeneration. It's not. Scripture is clear that regeneration precedes faith and in fact, faith and repentance are granted as saith Scripture. The other problem here is that you are confusing that which is descriptive with that which is prescriptive. As for most of your Scripture references, I don't see how they have anything to do with this discussion. I have to say that in all my years of debating this issue I have never seen such a hostile feeding frenzy of Scripture twisting in all my life. The textual machinations I have witnessed in this thread are astounding to say the least. I'm sorry to have to inform some of you of this.... but the Scripture I have presented thus far means exactly what it says.... man must be granted faith and repentance.... and just who receives this grace is God's choice, not man's. Sorry.

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 02:50 AM
I'd like an answer to this as well.No, it is not inconsistent at all. Arminians believe that God gives grace to all, and that God desires that all should come to believe in Christ.OK???


Why would an Arminian not align their will with the will of God and ask God to reveal Himself to the unbeliever in such glory that the unbeliever accepts the grace offered.I don't know? What's wrong with that? Faith comes by hearing, right? That's how He reveals Himself to the unbeliever, right? That's quite different that praying God change the heart to accept the gospel. Different indeed.


Folks should actually read what Arminius taught before going off half-cocked on unsupported and silly hypotheticals.Whether or not Arminius taught to pray God arbitrarily change the unbelieving heart to believe the gospel is irrelevant, since it is not found in scripture.

crossnote
May 26th 2010, 03:03 AM
Pardon me if I'm not showing much grace myself in this short post -- I fully realize it.

That's fine. Often with the backdrop of the law - grace becomes even more 'gracier'. :)

losthorizon
May 26th 2010, 03:10 AM
Scripture is clear that regeneration precedes faith


Totally false assumption. Faith comes by hearing the word of God - then one is born again as he obeys the gospel of grace from the heart.

Nomad
May 26th 2010, 03:17 AM
Totally false assumption. Faith comes by hearing the word of God - then one is born again as he obeys the gospel of grace from the heart.

Yeah... speaking of the Word preached and of receptive hearts...

Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Ignoring the clear teaching of Scripture is never a good thing.

crossnote
May 26th 2010, 03:24 AM
The truth is my friend most folks reject the non-biblical notion of Total Depravity because it is totally wrong. God requires fallen man to act via man's free-will to hear the word of God and receive the Christ, believing on His name. Fallen man has the ability to do just that as we see throughout the NT and God remains sovereign. God does not force a few to believe and force many to disbelieve - that is not the God we serve. Man must “choose you this day whom you will serve”.

I don't think 'force' is the word. God in His sovereignty is able to turn hearts, making the unwilling...willing.

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
(Luk 1:17)

Oh, there He goes again... interfering with man's disobedient heart!

Dani H
May 26th 2010, 03:48 AM
Oh, there He goes again... interfering with man's disobedient heart!

And I'm very glad He does !!!!!

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 03:49 AM
Hi Sirus. Instead of expanding this, I chose to write post #95 (trying to keep it simple). Let me know if you have any questions about that.How is this relevant to your point? I have unsaved family, but they have 'heard'. Do I give up and conclude lost, or do I continue to witness to the truth of the gospel and pray for laborers? I'm not God. I don't know if they have the word and truth in them and will believe one day or not. One thing that is certain is there is 0 scripture for praying God change their heart except by the gospel. So we pray for the gospel to go forth because the gospel of Jesus Christ is what saves. Not our prayer that God change a heart because we want them to be saved.

losthorizon
May 26th 2010, 03:53 AM
I don't think 'force' is the word. God in His sovereignty is able to turn hearts, making the unwilling...willing.


God turns the hearts of the disobedient to the wisdom of the just by providing man choices. Man chooses to obey or disobey those choices via free-will. Man can choose to hear the word of God which produces faith unto obedience or man can choose to disobey unto death. God doesn't make (force) some men obey while making others disobey.
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." ~ Joshua 24:15

crossnote
May 26th 2010, 04:00 AM
Let me take a wild swing here. Let's say the Arminian position is true where God predestinates according to what he foresaw (that one would choose Him) in eternity.
Well for all practical purposes for those living now in 2010 A.D. you have been predestined. It's all over. Whether you choose Him or not, He predestined you according to what He saw you will do. The die is well cast by 2010.
Feel free to tear apart the fallacy of that Arminian position.

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 04:02 AM
I don't think 'force' is the word. God in His sovereignty is able to turn hearts, making the unwilling...willing.

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
(Luk 1:17)

Oh, there He goes again... interfering with man's disobedient heart!Yes, and Jesus said they were already the Fathers and the Father gave them to Him. Why? Because they had the word and truth in them so they would hear and would know whether Jesus' doctrine was of God. Just to knock off another fallacy about making the unwilling willing, Jesus said "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." Also the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, which you can see in the OT "whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing" (Exo 35:21).

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 04:07 AM
Let me take a wild swing here. Let's say the Arminian position is true where God predestinates according to what he foresaw (that one would choose Him) in eternity.
Well for all practical purposes for those living now in 2010 A.D. you have been predestined. It's all over. Whether you choose Him or not, He predestined you according to what He saw you will do. The die is well cast by 2010.
Feel free to tear apart the fallacy of that Arminian position.OK!
God does not predestinate individuals to salvation. The elect are predestined to inheritance and glorification in Christ. Election and predestination are two complete different concepts.

Dani H
May 26th 2010, 04:13 AM
So if I pray for somebody, and after I pray, God assures me that their salvation is a done deal, and then I see them get saved ... what's up with that?

Coincidence? Delusion? What?

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 04:14 AM
And I'm very glad He does !!!!!John preached righteousness. Those that had the word in them heard. So, honest question, how did God change their heart? With truth....
....that was in them? ....because they were the Fathers?
Yes.
Now, where's the arbitray force?
Not in the truth!

LookingUp
May 26th 2010, 04:15 AM
How is this relevant to your point?My point? You asked in post #4 , “Where does scripture say to pray for the salvation of the unsaved?”, and I gave you Scripture that shows that Paul prayed for the salvation of the unsaved. Seems simple.

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 04:20 AM
So if I pray for somebody, and after I pray, God assures me that their salvation is a done deal, and then I see them get saved ... what's up with that?

Coincidence? Delusion? What? Well, as you said earlier, sometimes the're saved, sometimes not. Are we supposed to believe it is God working through you sometimes?
what's up with that?

Sirus
May 26th 2010, 04:23 AM
My point? You asked in post #4 , “Where does scripture say to pray for the salvation of the unsaved?”, and I gave you Scripture that shows that Paul prayed for the salvation of the unsaved. Seems simple.How it seems is irrelevant to what it says. Prayed for salvation is very general and is not praying God change their heart. It's very simple.

LookingUp
May 26th 2010, 05:30 AM
How it seems is irrelevant to what it says. Prayed for salvation is very general and is not praying God change their heart. It's very simple.Sirus, in post #4 you didn't ask to show you Scripture where it says to pray for God to change the heart of an unbeliever. You asked, "Where does scripture say to pray for the salvation of the unsaved?" and I gave you scripture that shows that Paul prayed for the salvation of the unsaved.

Slug1
May 26th 2010, 11:43 AM
1 Tim 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Since God desires that ALL are to be saved... I will continue to intercede in the gap of those who are not saved that the Holy Spirit leads me to and pray for... until Jesus draws them to Him and they accept Him. It's sad that not all will accept but this does not lessen our Loving God who desires that all be saved. I will also pray for those who hear the words that God "may" not desire them because they are not "elected"... that such a lie not turn them away from God who truly desires for them to be near, accept, and live in a realtionship with Him, through His Son Jesus as led by the Holy Spirit. That they know God's "truth" and that truth is that God desires all, not only a select amount that call themselves elect.

Nomad
May 26th 2010, 12:00 PM
1 Tim 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Since God desires that ALL are to be saved... I will continue to intercede in the gap of those who are not saved that the Holy Spirit leads me to and pray for... until Jesus draws them to Him and they accept Him. It's sad that not all will accept but this does not lessen our Loving God who desires that all be saved. I will also pray for those who hear the words that God "may" not desire them because they are not "elected"... that such a lie not turn them away from God who truly desires for them to be near, accept, and live in a realtionship with Him, through His Son Jesus as led by the Holy Spirit. That they know God's "truth" and that truth is that God desires all, not only a select amount that call themselves elect.

Yes... you've quoted one of the most abused verses in all of the Bible. All men there means all kinds of men, as in men from every walk of life, men from every tribe tongue and nation, i.e. Jews and Gentiles, not all men exhaustively. Verse 2 through 7 makes this abundantly clear. The first rule of hermenuetics is context, context, context.

1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

πᾶς - All
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795

RabbiKnife
May 26th 2010, 12:44 PM
Let me take a wild swing here. Let's say the Arminian position is true where God predestinates according to what he foresaw (that one would choose Him) in eternity.
Well for all practical purposes for those living now in 2010 A.D. you have been predestined. It's all over. Whether you choose Him or not, He predestined you according to what He saw you will do. The die is well cast by 2010.
Feel free to tear apart the fallacy of that Arminian position.

Arminians believe in both election and predestination. But it is not "whether you choose HIm or not." Election and predestination are both based on God's foreknowledge. Knowing does not equal causing.

There is no fallacy.

Dani H
May 26th 2010, 02:36 PM
Well, as you said earlier, sometimes the're saved, sometimes not. Are we supposed to believe it is God working through you sometimes?
what's up with that?

It's not sometimes though, see. It's every time.

I do not pray for every person. I pray for those who God specifically tells me to, and I pray how He specifically tells me to, for His own reasons. And every time He does, there are definite answers. And so I think that declining a prompt of prayer and standing against darkness in another person's life because it doesn't line up with our personal beliefs, is sin. Because where would you and I both be if it wasn't for somebody else standing in the gap for us? We didn't get saved in a vacuum or randomly or arbitrarily. God used somebody to make that process happen. Through intercession, through preaching the Word, through loving us unconditionally, by touching us in some way. With you, with me, with everyone who comes here and is glad of their salvation. Every one of us is in the Kingdom today because God used somebody to help bring us there, in whichever capacity He chose and in whichever capacity they responded to His prompting. We have to respond. He initiates, we respond. That is how the Spirit works. With believers and with unbelievers. When we don't respond ... well, I don't want to even think about the ramifications of it. I can only personally decide that I am not going to walk into heaven with somebody else's blood on my hands, and so I give myself to the Spirit's call on my life and do as He says, regardless.

John146
May 26th 2010, 05:16 PM
I really find it funny the way Calvinists define Sovereignty.

To the Calvinist, in order for God to be Sovereign, He must be a puppet master. He must be an autocratic dictoator that gives no choice to anyone, and does not allow anyone to freely make the decision to love or reject Him.

Look at the world around you. Does everyone love God? Do all worship and obey Him? Why not? Is God not Soverign then, according to your definition? Why do people murder, rape, worship Satan, do all kinds of evil? Is God not Sovereign? Or would you go so low as to say God is the one who made these people rape, murder, steal and do all kinds of evil things?

If God is Sovereign, according to your definition, all the demons would still be angels serving God obediently in heaven, and the entire human race would be lovely and sinless living in Paradise up till today. Why aren't they? Isn't this the biggest contradiction to the Calvinist definition of Sovereignty?

Is God any less Sovereign, if in his Sovereignty, he has given men free will to choose to love or reject Him freely? To obey and disobey? So you say God is Sovereign, but God has no right to choose to do that? God has no right to be just, righteous, gracious and loving, in order to be Sovereign?

So Sovereign = Egomaniac, autocratic, puppet master?

This isn't how Scripture describes God at all. Christ is humble and lowly in heart. When reviled, he reviled not back. Consider how Christ paints the Heavenly Father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. The Father pulls up his garment and runs to the prodigal son, something a Middle Eastern gentleman would never do, it is a highly undignified action. And running to accept your prodigal son who has demanded his inheritance and left his family would leave a Middle Eastern gentleman ostracized by his neighbours in the entire village, and is utterly humiliating. Does the picture of God that Christ painted fit the Calvinist picture of God?

So in your idea of Sovereignty, God has no choice? God cannot choose the way he wants to make his creation? He must make them robots otherwise he is less Sovereign?My thoughts exactly. Their understanding of God's sovereignty is severely flawed. That He is sovereign clearly does not mean that He controls everything because the God of the Bible is not the cause of man's wickedness. He punishes people for their wickedness. Would He punish people for what He caused them to do? Of course not. That would be utter nonsense. But a Calvinist might say, "I don't believe He controls everything, that's just hyper-Calvinists who believe that". Okay, so that Calvinist (but not hyper-Calvinist) acknowledges that God doesn't actively control everything like a puppet master yet that person can't allow that God would give man the free will to choose whether or not to humble himself and believe in Christ? How does that make any sense? If one can acknowledge that His sovereignty doesn't mean He acts like a dictatorial puppet master by controlling everything that happens then why can't one also acknowledge that He does not act as a puppet master when it comes to man's salvation?

John146
May 26th 2010, 05:20 PM
Yeah... speaking of the Word preached and of receptive hearts...

Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Ignoring the clear teaching of Scripture is never a good thing.You are being narrow minded and reading the verse with a biased slant. Do you see that she was already a worshiper of God before the Lord opened her heart to listen to Paul's words? Do you think it was perhaps because she worshiped God that He opened her heart or was it just something He did randomly? How did she come to be a worshiper of God in the first place? It doesn't say there, but I believe it was by her own choice.

John146
May 26th 2010, 05:44 PM
The problem here is that you assume that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same a regeneration. It's not. Scripture is clear that regeneration precedes faith Really? Show me one passage that says regeneration precedes faith.


and in fact, faith and repentance are granted as saith Scripture.But you don't seem to understand what that means. It is the opportunity to repent and believe so that one can be saved and have eternal life that has been granted by way of the death and resurrection of Christ.

Acts 5
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Did all of Israel repent or all Gentiles repent? No. Yet these verses say God gave/granted repentance to Israel and the Gentiles. This is in reference to the nation of Israel and Gentiles in general so it clearly means God has given the opportunity to repent and be forgiven and saved not just to Israel but also to the Gentiles. All of them. It makes sense that God would grant all people the opportunity to repent and be saved because He desires all people to repent and be saved (Eze 18:23,33:11, 1 Tim 2:3-6, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31).

John146
May 26th 2010, 06:07 PM
I don't think 'force' is the word. God in His sovereignty is able to turn hearts, making the unwilling...willing.But He doesn't do that without man's willing cooperation. To make the unwilling to be willing is forcing, whether you acknowledge it or not. It's funny how you guys don't like that word 'force' but it's exactly what you believe, that God forces people to repent and believe. If you don't think so then, tell me, can one who God makes willing possibly refuse that and remain unwilling? If not then that is a case of God forcing people to repent and believe, which He does not do.


And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
(Luk 1:17)

Oh, there He goes again... interfering with man's disobedient heart!God speaks to people's hearts but it is everyone's choice in how to respond. Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14). Are those who are not chosen not able to turn from their sins and put their faith in Christ or are they not willing to do so? They are not willing (Matt 22:3, Matt 23:37) though they are able. Why are they not willing? Because God made them that way and they can't help but to not be willing? No. It is their choice. Here are two examples of people being cut in the heart with the truth but not responding favorably to it and resisting it:

Acts 5
29Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Acts 7
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

In each of these cases they knew that the truth was being spoken but they didn't like it and were not willing to give up their positions of power and status which they would have had to do if they accepted and embraced the truth. So, instead of embracing the truth they became angry because the truth was not what they wanted it to be. Think about it. Would they have become so angry if they didn't believe what was being said was true? Not likely. They would have just brushed it off as nonsense and moved on rather than getting angry, don't you think? But sometimes when people discover the truth and it's not what they want it to be they become angry and that was the case there.

Here are others who were also cut to the heart but they chose to respond favorably:

Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

These people knew that what Peter was saying was true and instead of being angry that it wasn't what they wanted it to be they were willing to accept the truth no matter what and wanted to know how they should respond. Everyone has the choice of how to respond once the truth is revealed to them in their hearts. If you read Romans 1:18-32 you can see that some who know God and know the truth decide to rebel against Him. They know there is a God and who He is but they decide not to be thankful or to glorify Him as God and they end up being given over to their wickedness. That is not what God wants them to do but that is the choice some make.

John146
May 26th 2010, 06:27 PM
Yes... you've quoted one of the most abused verses in all of the Bible. It's only abused by Calvinists like yourself.


All men there means all kinds of men, as in men from every walk of life, men from every tribe tongue and nation, i.e. Jews and Gentiles, not all men exhaustively.That is false. Do you also think in verse 1, which you conveniently omitted, that he is saying to pray only for all kinds of people rather than all people?

1 Tim 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


Verse 2 through 7 makes this abundantly clear. The first rule of hermenuetics is context, context, context.

1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

πᾶς - All
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795How convenient of you to choose that definition when another definition says "everyone". It should be clear that the very ones who Paul says to pray for in verse 1 are also the ones that God desires to be saved. And we know that Paul would not tell people to only pray for a select group of people, but would tell us to pray for all people, even "kings and all who are in high positions".

Speaking of context, what Paul says later in the chapter confirms that he was saying that God desires for literally all people to be saved because he says in 1 Tim 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe". So, He is the Savior even of those who do not believe. What that means is He is the only means of salvation for all people but not all people obey His command for all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:31) and that is their choice. The only way it makes sense for people to be condemned for not repenting and believing in Christ (John 3:18) and eventually being cast into the lake of fire is that they had the opportunity to repent and believe but chose not to. Otherwise, you have God condemning people for not doing something that they supposedly never had the ability to do, which makes no sense and does not line up with His character.

Nomad
May 26th 2010, 09:18 PM
Do you see that she was already a worshiper of God before the Lord opened her heart to listen to Paul's words?.

Yeah... so were many other Jews and proselytes in the first century who rejected Christ and died in their sins. If it wasn't for the monergistic work of God upon Lydia's heart she would have done likewise.

You requested a verse demonstrating that regeneration precedes faith in another post. It's amazing that you would need more after showing you from Scripture that faith and repentance are granted by God simply because "no one understands, no one seeks for God." So be it. Here's yet two more examples:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

*1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

*Note carefully that "believes" is present tense and "has been born" is perfect tense. It's not too difficult to see exactly what John is saying. Those who are now believing have been born of God. Regeneration precedes faith.

RabbiKnife
May 26th 2010, 09:22 PM
"Regeneration precedes faith" makes as much sense as "conception precedes ovulation".

losthorizon
May 27th 2010, 12:45 AM
Yeah... so were many other Jews and proselytes in the first century who rejected Christ and died in their sins. If it wasn't for the monergistic work of God upon Lydia's heart she would have done likewise.

You requested a verse demonstrating that regeneration precedes faith in another post. It's amazing that you would need more after showing you from Scripture that faith and repentance are granted by God simply because "no one understands, no one seeks for God." So be it. Here's yet two more examples:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

*1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

*Note carefully that "believes" is present tense and "has been born" is perfect tense. It's not too difficult to see exactly what John is saying. Those who are now believing have been born of God. Regeneration precedes faith.
Per usual you have provided absolutely no evidence from Holy Writ to support the non-biblical notion of "Total Depravity". The inspired writers of the NT were not Calvinists. Do you have anything else or is that it?

Sirus
May 27th 2010, 12:49 AM
Sirus, in post #4 you didn't ask to show you Scripture where it says to pray for God to change the heart of an unbeliever. You asked, "Where does scripture say to pray for the salvation of the unsaved?" and I gave you scripture that shows that Paul prayed for the salvation of the unsaved.I didn't need to. The OP did. That's the question. What about freewill? Now, since I am saying God does NOT violate freewill He gave man and you are arguing with me, naturally I would think you you are saying God DOES violate freewill. I pray for the salvation of the unsaved but I do it biblically (that they may hear and see the gospel through a laborers), knowing God does not violate freewill.

Sirus
May 27th 2010, 12:54 AM
Election and predestination are both based on God's foreknowledge.No, predestination is not. If it were it would not be predestination. Predestination is based on what God decided before the foundation of the world. That's all, and why it is called predestination. This is why most are so confused, thinking election and predestination are the same thing, when they are not.

LookingUp
May 27th 2010, 03:38 AM
I didn't need to. The OP did. That's the question. What about freewill? Now, since I am saying God does NOT violate freewill He gave man and you are arguing with me, naturally I would think you you are saying God DOES violate freewill. I pray for the salvation of the unsaved but I do it biblically (that they may hear and see the gospel through a laborers), knowing God does not violate freewill.Oh, I'm sorry, Sirus, I misunderstood you. I don't believe Scripture teaches that individuals are predestined to be in the Body of Christ and I don't believe our prayers for an unbeliever's salvation means God is going to force that unbeliever to believe in Him and love Him. That doesn't even make sense to me because for love to be love, it must be given freely.

Nomad
May 27th 2010, 08:11 AM
Oh, I'm sorry, Sirus, I misunderstood you. I don't believe Scripture teaches that individuals are predestined to be in the Body of Christ and I don't believe our prayers for an unbeliever's salvation means God is going to force that unbeliever to believe in Him and love Him. That doesn't even make sense to me because for love to be love, it must be given freely.

Ahh... and such is the folly of those who worship at the alter of supposed free-will and Human autonomy. Hey God! Don't you dare violate my free will and save me fron sin and death!

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his wi....

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will....

RabbiKnife
May 27th 2010, 12:59 PM
No, predestination is not. If it were it would not be predestination. Predestination is based on what God decided before the foundation of the world. That's all, and why it is called predestination. This is why most are so confused, thinking election and predestination are the same thing, when they are not.

I -- am as a system, Arminiansim -- do not believe that election and predestination are the same. They are clearly very different; however, they are both based on what God foreknew, not on some random or arbitrary act of choosing outside of foreknowledge.

Frances
May 27th 2010, 04:58 PM
Why pray for the unSaved? To request the Lord to ensure they have an opportunity to hear the Gospel and respond to Him.

ThyWordIsTruth
May 27th 2010, 05:30 PM
The problem here is that you assume that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same a regeneration. It's not. Scripture is clear that regeneration precedes faith and in fact, faith and repentance are granted as saith Scripture. The other problem here is that you are confusing that which is descriptive with that which is prescriptive. As for most of your Scripture references, I don't see how they have anything to do with this discussion. I have to say that in all my years of debating this issue I have never seen such a hostile feeding frenzy of Scripture twisting in all my life. The textual machinations I have witnessed in this thread are astounding to say the least. I'm sorry to have to inform some of you of this.... but the Scripture I have presented thus far means exactly what it says.... man must be granted faith and repentance.... and just who receives this grace is God's choice, not man's. Sorry.

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."


So your answer is just to ignore that entire passage of Scripture, and ignore the Scripture I posted which clearly teaches that we are placed into Christ's family when we're baptized by the Holy Spirit?

Do you have any Scriptural proof that there is a second baptism that is seperate from regeneration? Cornelius, was there a seperate baptism? How about Paul?

I invite you to post just one verse which says regeneration precedes faith?

ThyWordIsTruth
May 27th 2010, 05:33 PM
Yeah... speaking of the Word preached and of receptive hearts...

Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Ignoring the clear teaching of Scripture is never a good thing.

The Lord opened her heart to pay attention.

Pay attention != Faith

Pay attention = pay attention.

Reading something into Scripture that is not there is also never a good thing.

ThyWordIsTruth
May 27th 2010, 05:39 PM
Yes... you've quoted one of the most abused verses in all of the Bible. All men there means all kinds of men, as in men from every walk of life, men from every tribe tongue and nation, i.e. Jews and Gentiles, not all men exhaustively. Verse 2 through 7 makes this abundantly clear. The first rule of hermenuetics is context, context, context.

1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

πᾶς - All
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795

So in your view, God would like to save all types of men? Maybe some kings, some beggars, some rich, some poor, some dark skinned, some light skinned?

For what purpose might I ask? To fill a collection?

LookingUp
May 27th 2010, 06:27 PM
Ahh... and such is the folly of those who worship at the alter of supposed free-will and Human autonomy. Hey God! Don't you dare violate my free will and save me fron sin and death!You don’t even know me Nomad, yet you feel sarcasm is appropriate? Instead of teaching me anything, you’ve offended me.


Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.This passage doesn’t say God predestines who will and who will not be in the Body of Christ. It says that God predestines what will happen to all who are in. All who are in the Body of Christ will eventually be conformed to the image of Christ and glorified.


Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his wi....This passage doesn’t say God chose us to be in Christ. What God chose from the foundation of the world was that whoever is in Christ will be holy and blameless. Once you’ve chosen to be in the group (i.e. body of Christ), what was predestined for the group becomes predestined for you.


Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will....This says that all that God accomplishes is “according to his counsel and will,” not that all that takes place is God’s accomplishment. And the inheritance we obtain is “in Christ.”

Sirus
May 27th 2010, 11:55 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, Sirus, I misunderstood you. I don't believe Scripture teaches that individuals are predestined to be in the Body of Christ and I don't believe our prayers for an unbeliever's salvation means God is going to force that unbeliever to believe in Him and love Him. That doesn't even make sense to me because for love to be love, it must be given freely.No need to apologize. Happens all the time on the internet. Glad we're on the same page.

Sirus
May 27th 2010, 11:57 PM
I -- am as a system, Arminiansim -- do not believe that election and predestination are the same. They are clearly very different; however, they are both based on what God foreknew, not on some random or arbitrary act of choosing outside of foreknowledge.You can say that til Jesus comes but have 0 scripture.

Sirus
May 28th 2010, 12:00 AM
Ahh... and such is the folly of those who worship at the alter of supposed free-will and Human autonomy. Hey God! Don't you dare violate my free will and save me fron sin and death!

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his wi....

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will....Those are not about election, they are about predestination -inheritance/glorification. The elect are/were predestined to receive inheritance and glorification in Christ -mine elect.

Firefighter
May 28th 2010, 02:24 AM
This thread has run it course and turned into personal jabs and bickering. It is now closed.