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peacewithin
May 28th 2010, 03:39 AM
Can someone tell me where in the Bible it tells that tithing means giving 10% of your money. I know what tithing is I'm just unclear about this.
Thanks

Firefighter
May 28th 2010, 03:42 AM
The word "tithe" literally means "a tenth".

-SEEKING-
May 28th 2010, 03:48 AM
I know what tithing is I'm just unclear about this.
Thanks

What exactly is tithing?

Bladers
May 28th 2010, 06:12 AM
Can someone tell me where in the Bible it tells that tithing means giving 10% of your money. I know what tithing is I'm just unclear about this.
Thanks

Isn't it a tenth of everything? not just your money, but your time and so on...

genealogist
May 28th 2010, 10:20 AM
The OT Law often calls it the tenth. Even before Levitical Law, the Patriarchs tithed. In Jacob's case, he agreed if God fulfilled his conditions: :lol:

So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

AndrewBaptistFL
May 28th 2010, 10:39 AM
What exactly is tithing?

Actually "tithing" has taken place even before it was mentioned in the Bible. Simply put, it is the custom of giving one tenth of your profits, harvest, etcetera to someone who is your superior. It was a way of showing respect and/or subjugation.

Firstfruits
May 28th 2010, 11:12 AM
Can someone tell me where in the Bible it tells that tithing means giving 10% of your money. I know what tithing is I'm just unclear about this.
Thanks

According to the law of Moses it is a tenth of all, to be given at the third year.

Deut 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

Deut 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

It is not a new testament commandment/teaching/requirement.

Firstfruits

Servant89
May 30th 2010, 12:44 AM
In Deu 10:9, Deu 18:1-2 and Josh 13:14,33 we see that there was no land given to the Levites (the descendants of Levi) and because of that, God commanded the other brothers to provide the Levites with part of their agricultural products from the land (since the Levites had no land to grow crops or raise cattle). The Lord told them to give a tenth of the agricultural products OF THE LAND to the Levites and the poor and needy because the Levites (and the poor) had no land as an inheritance. The Lord referred to this arrangement as:

a. The tithe of the land (Lev 27:30)
b. The tithe of the ground (Neh 10:37)
c. The tithe of the field (Deu 14:22; 1Chr 31:4-6; Neh 12:44)

It was never referred to as the tithe of the ocean or the sea. It was never referred to as the tithe of the furniture manufactured in Israel or the tithe of the building materials. The tithe had to be agricultural products that had to be eaten. Nothing is said about forbidding the Levites from fishing or not having bodies of water. As such, Israel did not have to give the Levites 10% of their fish. It was all about agricultural products that had to be eaten (produce and clean animals from the herds raised in the land of Israel). The reason is because the Levites could not own land to grow crops or raise cattle.

The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)

1. Only land owners (farmers) that were growing crops or raising cattle had to tithe. People that did not own land could not tithe. The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock like lambs, sheep, goats, etc.. (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37; Neh 13:5,12). The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe. When Peter caught 153 fishes (John 21:11), he owed nothing as tithe offering because it is the tithe of the land, not the sea.
2. Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income. According to the law of Moses, money was not accepted by God as a tithe offering.
3. The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance, they had the Lord as their inheritance.
4. Tithing was also given to the poor and needy (widows, orphans, newcomers to the land). Tithing was part of God’s welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). To ask the poor to tithe is exactly the opposite of what God established in His Word. See Appendix B for more information.
5. The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29). The Levites will then bring the tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem.
6. The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,11,18; Deu 14:23).
7. If the Jews lived too far from Jerusalem, they were allowed to turn their agricultural products (their tithe) into money (to eliminate traveling with produce and animals). But once they arrived at Jerusalem, they had to turn the money into agricultural products before bringing the offering to God because God did not accept money as a tithing offering. The reason was so that the tithing offering could be eaten before the Lord in his Temple. (Deu 14:24-26).
8. Because they had to bring their tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem, God did not make it a burden to those living far away from Jerusalem, to travel every week or every month to bring the tithe. Instead, he told the Israelites that they had to bring their tithes once every 3 years. That year was called the year of tithing (see Deu 14:28; Deu 26:12; Amos 4:4).
9. If the people failed to bring in their tithes in the year of tithing, they were commanded by the law to bring them back the next year of tithing (3 years later) with 20 percent interest. To be financially accurate, twenty percent interest every 3 years translates to 6.3 % interest per year or 0.12 % interest per week. It is not 20% interest added the next Sunday after someone missed the offering.
10. The tithe or the 10th part of the agricultural products in Israel belonged to the Lord. It really belonged to him because man put the seed on the ground, but it was the Lord that made it grow. The Lord did most of the work. That is why he considered it robbery not to give Him his part. He had earned it. The Lord in turn, gave what belonged to him to the Levite and the poor. (Lev 27:30; Num 18:24; Deu 26:12; Neh 13:5; Mal 3:8-10).
11. The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32).
12. The Law of God required the Levites to give a tenth of the tithes that they received back unto the Lord. (Num 18:26). This had to be the best of the tithe and the Levite had to give it to the priests that ministered in the Temple (for their consumption).

Because the Temple is no longer in place in Jerusalem and there are no Levites running a priesthood anymore, the laws connected with the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer in effect. That is why the Jews do not kill a lamb during Passover, no one offers animals for sin offerings, there are no more animal sacrifices. Those laws are gone with the Temple and the priesthood. The law of tithing is part of that group. Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13 and 1 Jo 3:4 say that where there is no law, there is no transgression, and sin cannot be inputted where there is no law. Because of that, since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood disappeared, no one is robbing God of anything when people fail to bring their tithes (their agricultural products to the Levites in the Temple). Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 and Eph 2:15 reiterate that Jesus removed those laws when he was nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace.

The current law of tithing preached in today’s protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible. That is a commandment of man. God said that our heart is far from God and our worship is in vain when we teach as doctrines commandments of men.

Furthermore, the NT giving is totally based on love. We give because we want to, not because we have to (big difference). We should give as we purposed in our hearts, not as the pastor purposed in his heart, but as we purposed in our hearts, not grudginly or OUT OF NECESSITY !!! for the Lord loves the cheerful giver.

Shalom

RogerW
May 30th 2010, 12:51 AM
In Deu 10:9, Deu 18:1-2 and Josh 13:14,33 we see that there was no land given to the Levites (the descendants of Levi) and because of that, God commanded the other brothers to provide the Levites with part of their agricultural products from the land (since the Levites had no land to grow crops or raise cattle). The Lord told them to give a tenth of the agricultural products OF THE LAND to the Levites and the poor and needy because the Levites (and the poor) had no land as an inheritance. The Lord referred to this arrangement as:

a. The tithe of the land (Lev 27:30)
b. The tithe of the ground (Neh 10:37)
c. The tithe of the field (Deu 14:22; 1Chr 31:4-6; Neh 12:44)

It was never referred to as the tithe of the ocean or the sea. It was never referred to as the tithe of the furniture manufactured in Israel or the tithe of the building materials. The tithe had to be agricultural products that had to be eaten. Nothing is said about forbidding the Levites from fishing or not having bodies of water. As such, Israel did not have to give the Levites 10% of their fish. It was all about agricultural products that had to be eaten (produce and clean animals from the herds raised in the land of Israel). The reason is because the Levites could not own land to grow crops or raise cattle.

The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)

1. Only land owners (farmers) that were growing crops or raising cattle had to tithe. People that did not own land could not tithe. The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock like lambs, sheep, goats, etc.. (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37; Neh 13:5,12). The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe. When Peter caught 153 fishes (John 21:11), he owed nothing as tithe offering because it is the tithe of the land, not the sea.
2. Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income. According to the law of Moses, money was not accepted by God as a tithe offering.
3. The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance, they had the Lord as their inheritance.
4. Tithing was also given to the poor and needy (widows, orphans, newcomers to the land). Tithing was part of God’s welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). To ask the poor to tithe is exactly the opposite of what God established in His Word. See Appendix B for more information.
5. The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29). The Levites will then bring the tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem.
6. The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,11,18; Deu 14:23).
7. If the Jews lived too far from Jerusalem, they were allowed to turn their agricultural products (their tithe) into money (to eliminate traveling with produce and animals). But once they arrived at Jerusalem, they had to turn the money into agricultural products before bringing the offering to God because God did not accept money as a tithing offering. The reason was so that the tithing offering could be eaten before the Lord in his Temple. (Deu 14:24-26).
8. Because they had to bring their tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem, God did not make it a burden to those living far away from Jerusalem, to travel every week or every month to bring the tithe. Instead, he told the Israelites that they had to bring their tithes once every 3 years. That year was called the year of tithing (see Deu 14:28; Deu 26:12; Amos 4:4).
9. If the people failed to bring in their tithes in the year of tithing, they were commanded by the law to bring them back the next year of tithing (3 years later) with 20 percent interest. To be financially accurate, twenty percent interest every 3 years translates to 6.3 % interest per year or 0.12 % interest per week. It is not 20% interest added the next Sunday after someone missed the offering.
10. The tithe or the 10th part of the agricultural products in Israel belonged to the Lord. It really belonged to him because man put the seed on the ground, but it was the Lord that made it grow. The Lord did most of the work. That is why he considered it robbery not to give Him his part. He had earned it. The Lord in turn, gave what belonged to him to the Levite and the poor. (Lev 27:30; Num 18:24; Deu 26:12; Neh 13:5; Mal 3:8-10).
11. The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32).
12. The Law of God required the Levites to give a tenth of the tithes that they received back unto the Lord. (Num 18:26). This had to be the best of the tithe and the Levite had to give it to the priests that ministered in the Temple (for their consumption).

Because the Temple is no longer in place in Jerusalem and there are no Levites running a priesthood anymore, the laws connected with the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer in effect. That is why the Jews do not kill a lamb during Passover, no one offers animals for sin offerings, there are no more animal sacrifices. Those laws are gone with the Temple and the priesthood. The law of tithing is part of that group. Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13 and 1 Jo 3:4 say that where there is no law, there is no transgression, and sin cannot be inputted where there is no law. Because of that, since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood disappeared, no one is robbing God of anything when people fail to bring their tithes (their agricultural products to the Levites in the Temple). Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 and Eph 2:15 reiterate that Jesus removed those laws when he was nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace.

The current law of tithing preached in today’s protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible. That is a commandment of man. God said that our heart is far from God and our worship is in vain when we teach as doctrines commandments of men.

Furthermore, the NT giving is totally based on love. We give because we want to, not because we have to (big difference). We should give as we purposed in our hearts, not as the pastor purposed in his heart, but as we purposed in our hearts, not grudginly or OUT OF NECESSITY !!! for the Lord loves the cheerful giver.

Shalom

This is a very good response Servant!! I wholeheartedly agree!!!

Blessings,
RW

billy-brown 2
May 30th 2010, 01:17 AM
In Deu 10:9, Deu 18:1-2 and Josh 13:14,33 we see that there was no land given to the Levites (the descendants of Levi) and because of that, God commanded the other brothers to provide the Levites with part of their agricultural products from the land (since the Levites had no land to grow crops or raise cattle). The Lord told them to give a tenth of the agricultural products OF THE LAND to the Levites and the poor and needy because the Levites (and the poor) had no land as an inheritance. The Lord referred to this arrangement as:

a. The tithe of the land (Lev 27:30)
b. The tithe of the ground (Neh 10:37)
c. The tithe of the field (Deu 14:22; 1Chr 31:4-6; Neh 12:44)

It was never referred to as the tithe of the ocean or the sea. It was never referred to as the tithe of the furniture manufactured in Israel or the tithe of the building materials. The tithe had to be agricultural products that had to be eaten. Nothing is said about forbidding the Levites from fishing or not having bodies of water. As such, Israel did not have to give the Levites 10% of their fish. It was all about agricultural products that had to be eaten (produce and clean animals from the herds raised in the land of Israel). The reason is because the Levites could not own land to grow crops or raise cattle.

The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)

1. Only land owners (farmers) that were growing crops or raising cattle had to tithe. People that did not own land could not tithe. The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock like lambs, sheep, goats, etc.. (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37; Neh 13:5,12). The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe. When Peter caught 153 fishes (John 21:11), he owed nothing as tithe offering because it is the tithe of the land, not the sea.
2. Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income. According to the law of Moses, money was not accepted by God as a tithe offering.
3. The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance, they had the Lord as their inheritance.
4. Tithing was also given to the poor and needy (widows, orphans, newcomers to the land). Tithing was part of Godís welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). To ask the poor to tithe is exactly the opposite of what God established in His Word. See Appendix B for more information.
5. The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29). The Levites will then bring the tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem.
6. The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,11,18; Deu 14:23).
7. If the Jews lived too far from Jerusalem, they were allowed to turn their agricultural products (their tithe) into money (to eliminate traveling with produce and animals). But once they arrived at Jerusalem, they had to turn the money into agricultural products before bringing the offering to God because God did not accept money as a tithing offering. The reason was so that the tithing offering could be eaten before the Lord in his Temple. (Deu 14:24-26).
8. Because they had to bring their tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem, God did not make it a burden to those living far away from Jerusalem, to travel every week or every month to bring the tithe. Instead, he told the Israelites that they had to bring their tithes once every 3 years. That year was called the year of tithing (see Deu 14:28; Deu 26:12; Amos 4:4).
9. If the people failed to bring in their tithes in the year of tithing, they were commanded by the law to bring them back the next year of tithing (3 years later) with 20 percent interest. To be financially accurate, twenty percent interest every 3 years translates to 6.3 % interest per year or 0.12 % interest per week. It is not 20% interest added the next Sunday after someone missed the offering.
10. The tithe or the 10th part of the agricultural products in Israel belonged to the Lord. It really belonged to him because man put the seed on the ground, but it was the Lord that made it grow. The Lord did most of the work. That is why he considered it robbery not to give Him his part. He had earned it. The Lord in turn, gave what belonged to him to the Levite and the poor. (Lev 27:30; Num 18:24; Deu 26:12; Neh 13:5; Mal 3:8-10).
11. The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32).
12. The Law of God required the Levites to give a tenth of the tithes that they received back unto the Lord. (Num 18:26). This had to be the best of the tithe and the Levite had to give it to the priests that ministered in the Temple (for their consumption).

Because the Temple is no longer in place in Jerusalem and there are no Levites running a priesthood anymore, the laws connected with the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer in effect. That is why the Jews do not kill a lamb during Passover, no one offers animals for sin offerings, there are no more animal sacrifices. Those laws are gone with the Temple and the priesthood. The law of tithing is part of that group. Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13 and 1 Jo 3:4 say that where there is no law, there is no transgression, and sin cannot be inputted where there is no law. Because of that, since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood disappeared, no one is robbing God of anything when people fail to bring their tithes (their agricultural products to the Levites in the Temple). Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 and Eph 2:15 reiterate that Jesus removed those laws when he was nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace.

The current law of tithing preached in todayís protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible. That is a commandment of man. God said that our heart is far from God and our worship is in vain when we teach as doctrines commandments of men.

Furthermore, the NT giving is totally based on love. We give because we want to, not because we have to (big difference). We should give as we purposed in our hearts, not as the pastor purposed in his heart, but as we purposed in our hearts, not grudginly or OUT OF NECESSITY !!! for the Lord loves the cheerful giver.

Shalom

Yep . . . that ^^^ . . .

:amen:

So, why is this being done?



The current law of tithing preached in todayís protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible.

Bandit
May 30th 2010, 01:53 AM
...

The current law of tithing preached in today’s protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible. That is a commandment of man. God said that our heart is far from God and our worship is in vain when we teach as doctrines commandments of men.

Furthermore, the NT giving is totally based on love. We give because we want to, not because we have to (big difference). We should give as we purposed in our hearts, not as the pastor purposed in his heart, but as we purposed in our hearts, not grudginly or OUT OF NECESSITY !!! for the Lord loves the cheerful giver.

Shalom


A most excellent post.

didymus
May 30th 2010, 02:53 AM
You are right in saying that specifically 10% of your gross income is not overtly stated as a requirement in the New Testament; However, in 1st Corinthians 16:2, Paul states...

"On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made." (NIV)

Also, you are also right in saying that the law of tithing did apply to some very specific circumstances in the Old Testement. The verses Peter quoted to the people from Psalms (Psalms 69:25, 109:8) in regard to Judas (Acts 1:20) explicitly referred to David's enemies (Psalms 69:1-25, 109:1-8). Therefore, we must not become too stiff in assuming that Old Testement scriptures only apply to the Old Testement contexts in which they are spoken. Another good example of this is when Jesus was fasting in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan (Matthew 4: 1-11, Mark 1:12-13, Luke 4:1-13); when Satan tried convincing him to turn stones into bread, Jesus quoted part of Deuteronomy 8:3, even though that verse, in it's original context, did not refer to fasting; that verse was even enough to make Satan move on to another temptation, even though one might argue that it was quoted out of context if done so by anyone else in that situation.

Your tenth point is also void if you were using it to argue against tithing. You stated that the tenth part of the agricultural products belonged to the Lord, but if we as Christians proclaim that God is King over all the earth, doesn't he own everything anyway? (rhetorical question)

You are, however, absolutely correct in your final statement; NT giving is based totally in love, as is every 'commandment' given in the NT. Everything we do should be done out of love (agape), and if we do any of these things grudgingly or out of necessity, we are not right with God. A Pastor who preaches that we must give even if we don't want to is putting emphasis on the wrong idea, but just because we don't feel inclined to do something, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done at all, but rather it may mean that we need God to adjust our heart.

Bandit
May 30th 2010, 03:07 AM
The current law of tithing preached in today’s protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible. That is a commandment of man.


So, why is this being done?


That is a very good question. Back in the mid 80's I tried to ask this very question of the pastor at the church (SBC) I was attending. The guy had recently been laying a lot of guilt on those in the church who did not "tithe". (This church had recently gotten themselves into a financial shortfall because of some mismanagement and they needed cash.) I got rather tired of the guilt trips, and after studying the topic, I realized he had no basis for trying to make “tithing” a compulsory part of the New Covenant. I went in with the teaching materials from a very well-known radio bible teacher who taught against the mandatory church tithe. So when I met this local pastor, I first explained to him what I had been reading, explained the biblical arguments against the tithe, and then I asked him for a counter-response to these biblical arguments. He refused to address those arguments in any way, and supplied no counter-arguments. In fact, it was apparent he didn't want any part of the conversation. Every question I had went unanswered. That was a real eye-opening experience for me. I could tell that I had put him on the spot, and that he knew he had no answer for these biblical arguments. I came away from that meeting with the realization that this local pastor was not free to search the scriptures; he had to adhere to the party line if he wanted to retain his position as a pastor in that denomination. I guess there comes a time in many person’s religious experience when they realize that politics plays a huge role in what goes on in church. That was one of those moments for me. It wasn’t the first, nor the most significant, but it was memorable nevertheless. After that meeting, I said to myself that I would never give up my allegiance to the pursuit of God’s truth (as this man had done) in order to advance or maintain myself in some man-made church organization. I might not know all things, but I will not knowingly play politics with the word of God.

Servant89
May 31st 2010, 12:52 AM
Yep . . . that ^^^ . . . amen: So, why is this being done?

1 Cor 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Shalom

Servant89
May 31st 2010, 01:15 AM
You are right in saying that specifically 10% of your gross income is not overtly stated as a requirement in the New Testament; However, in 1st Corinthians 16:2, Paul states...
"On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made." (NIV)

I know that is not an attempt to convince me I have to give 10%. Right?


we must not become too stiff in assuming that Old Testement scriptures only apply to the Old Testement contexts in which they are spoken. .

Oh yes we have to !!!! Because God is stiff when it comes to tithing. The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,8,11,18; Deu 14:23).

DEU 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

And God said he was very specific about doing it exactly like that and not to twist this commandment based on human reasoning (Deu 12:8,32).


Your tenth point is also void if you were using it to argue against tithing. You stated that the tenth part of the agricultural products belonged to the Lord, but if we as Christians proclaim that God is King over all the earth, doesn't he own everything anyway? (rhetorical question)

Listen up!!! We can not give what does not belong to us. We are called to give as we purposed in our hearts because it is ours to give. The law of tithing demands a payment. People in the OT paid tithes, they did not give tithes because it did not belonged to them (God gave the increase of the agricultural products and as such, he did most of the work and the 10% belonged to him). We do not pay tithes, we give from what we own, as we purposed in our hearts.


You are, however, absolutely correct in your final statement; NT giving is based totally in love, as is every 'commandment' given in the NT. Everything we do should be done out of love (agape), and if we do any of these things grudgingly or out of necessity, we are not right with God. A Pastor who preaches that we must give even if we don't want to is putting emphasis on the wrong idea, but just because we don't feel inclined to do something, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done at all, but rather it may mean that we need God to adjust our heart.

Amen!

Shalom

Servant89
May 31st 2010, 01:11 PM
ACT 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Notice in the last passage, that Ananias had sold his property (out of peer pressure) and had given probably greater than 80% of his sale-profit to the church (which is far more than what elders and deacons give today). But God was not impressed with his large contribution. This clearly shows that God is not after our wallet, he is after our heart. To measure people’s righteousness based on their material giving is wrong. Notice also in Acts 5:4 that the Scripture clearly declared Ananias’ income as completely belonging to Ananias (not 10% belonging to God) and that he was at liberty to do with it (with all of it) whatever he pleased.

Shalom

billy-brown 2
May 31st 2010, 01:55 PM
1 Cor 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Shalom


That is a very good question. Back in the mid 80's I tried to ask this very question of the pastor at the church (SBC) I was attending. The guy had recently been laying a lot of guilt on those in the church who did not "tithe". (This church had recently gotten themselves into a financial shortfall because of some mismanagement and they needed cash.) I got rather tired of the guilt trips, and after studying the topic, I realized he had no basis for trying to make ďtithingĒ a compulsory part of the New Covenant. I went in with the teaching materials from a very well-known radio bible teacher who taught against the mandatory church tithe. So when I met this local pastor, I first explained to him what I had been reading, explained the biblical arguments against the tithe, and then I asked him for a counter-response to these biblical arguments. He refused to address those arguments in any way, and supplied no counter-arguments. In fact, it was apparent he didn't want any part of the conversation. Every question I had went unanswered. That was a real eye-opening experience for me. I could tell that I had put him on the spot, and that he knew he had no answer for these biblical arguments. I came away from that meeting with the realization that this local pastor was not free to search the scriptures; he had to adhere to the party line if he wanted to retain his position as a pastor in that denomination. I guess there comes a time in many personís religious experience when they realize that politics plays a huge role in what goes on in church. That was one of those moments for me. It wasnít the first, nor the most significant, but it was memorable nevertheless. After that meeting, I said to myself that I would never give up my allegiance to the pursuit of Godís truth (as this man had done) in order to advance or maintain myself in some man-made church organization. I might not know all things, but I will not knowingly play politics with the word of God.

Wow . . . :cry:

So there is a certain bondage in maintaining the "party line," yes?


John 8
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, ďIf you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.Ē

Servant89
May 31st 2010, 04:31 PM
Wow . . . :cry:

So there is a certain bondage in maintaining the "party line," yes?

There is nothing new under the sun (Ecc 1:8-10). If they cast you out of the Church for being fanatical and a stickler for the Word of God, Jesus will search for you and find you himself. The blind man of John 9 is a good example.

Jn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

Shalom

billy-brown 2
May 31st 2010, 06:54 PM
There is nothing new under the sun (Ecc 1:8-10). If they cast you out of the Church for being fanatical and a strickler for the Word of God, Jesus will search for you and find you himself. The blind man of John 9 is a good example.

Jn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

Shalom

Yep . . . Jesus will search us out indeed . . .

So, the issue(s) concerning the OP achieves a certain level of scandal in many circles.

How does one "break free" from the "party line" on this--it seems to be everywhere, yes?



Originally Posted by Servant89
The current law of tithing preached in todayís protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible.

Servant89
May 31st 2010, 07:38 PM
How does one "break free" from the "party line" on this--it seems to be everywhere, yes?

In my church they preach tithing. I explained my position to the pastor. I teach Sunday school and I taught my position there (they let me). But the pastor continues to preach tithing. I want to make sure the Lord sees I am not intimidated by the fear of man. I am not called to convert people, that is the job of the HS.

Shalom

Bandit
May 31st 2010, 08:20 PM
In my church they preach tithing. I explained my position to the pastor. I teach Sunday school and I taught my position there (they let me). But the pastor continues to preach tithing. I want to make sure the Lord sees I am not intimidated by the fear of man. I am not called to convert people, that is the job of the HS.

I am not involved in any way at the church I "attend". They have made it very clear that unless one lines up with all of their doctrines, they cannot be involved in leadership of any form. In fact, the pastor told me that I should not ever say anything at any of their bible studies unless it fully agrees with their official doctrines. So I don't go to anything other than the main service (and even then I stay as far out of sight as possible). I only go there because of friends the kids have made. As soon as my kids are grown, I'm probably outa there for good.

billy-brown 2
May 31st 2010, 08:35 PM
1 Cor 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Shalom


That is a very good question. Back in the mid 80's I tried to ask this very question of the pastor at the church (SBC) I was attending. The guy had recently been laying a lot of guilt on those in the church who did not "tithe". (This church had recently gotten themselves into a financial shortfall because of some mismanagement and they needed cash.) I got rather tired of the guilt trips, and after studying the topic, I realized he had no basis for trying to make ďtithingĒ a compulsory part of the New Covenant. I went in with the teaching materials from a very well-known radio bible teacher who taught against the mandatory church tithe. So when I met this local pastor, I first explained to him what I had been reading, explained the biblical arguments against the tithe, and then I asked him for a counter-response to these biblical arguments. He refused to address those arguments in any way, and supplied no counter-arguments. In fact, it was apparent he didn't want any part of the conversation. Every question I had went unanswered. That was a real eye-opening experience for me. I could tell that I had put him on the spot, and that he knew he had no answer for these biblical arguments. I came away from that meeting with the realization that this local pastor was not free to search the scriptures; he had to adhere to the party line if he wanted to retain his position as a pastor in that denomination. I guess there comes a time in many personís religious experience when they realize that politics plays a huge role in what goes on in church. That was one of those moments for me. It wasnít the first, nor the most significant, but it was memorable nevertheless. After that meeting, I said to myself that I would never give up my allegiance to the pursuit of Godís truth (as this man had done) in order to advance or maintain myself in some man-made church organization. I might not know all things, but I will not knowingly play politics with the word of God.


In my church they preach tithing. I explained my position to the pastor. I teach Sunday school and I taught my position there (they let me). But the pastor continues to preach tithing. I want to make sure the Lord sees I am not intimidated by the fear of man. I am not called to convert people, that is the job of the HS.

Shalom


I am not involved in any way at the church I "attend". They have made it very clear that unless one lines up with all of their doctrines, they cannot be involved in leadership of any form. In fact, the pastor told me that I should not ever say anything at any of their bible studies unless it fully agrees with their official doctrines. So I don't go to anything other than the main service (and even then I stay as far out of sight as possible). I only go there because of friends the kids have made. As soon as my kids are grown, I'm probably outa there for good.


Obviously, the both of you have much experience with this dialectic . . . congrats . . .

And so, let's say a young believer becomes involved with these "churches" that you attend (someone who has been saved for a month or so . . .)--how do you instruct the young believer in the things of the OP?

Servant89
May 31st 2010, 11:05 PM
Obviously, the both of you have much experience with this dialectic . . . congrats . . .

And so, let's say a young believer becomes involved with these "churches" that you attend (someone who has been saved for a month or so . . .)--how do you instruct the young believer in the things of the OP?

I would tell the babe in Christ that there is sin in the church and no church is perfect. That is why Eph 4:11-13 says we need teachers, until the 2nd coming of Christ because we all need to grow in knowledge and understanding. I would encourage them to concentrate in growing themselves rather than pointing out what is wrong with others. Once the 2 by 4 if off my eye, I can then correct others. There is no perfect church, but if I find one, the moment I join it, it will no longer be perfect.

Shalom

Bandit
May 31st 2010, 11:17 PM
Obviously, the both of you have much experience with this dialectic . . . congrats . . .

And so, let's say a young believer becomes involved with these "churches" that you attend (someone who has been saved for a month or so . . .)--how do you instruct the young believer in the things of the OP?

You talk to them privately. You tell them that probably every church has some questionable teachings. You tell them about the behind-the-scenes politics that are possibly at play. You tell them to read the bible for themself, and to not be afraid to make up their own mind - even if that means disagreeing with the pastor on some points. You tell them to examine all sides of an issue before making a decision, and if they do that honestly, they will surely disagree with the local leadership on some issues. It is just going to happen. And you tell them to always be willing to reexamine an issue from a different perspective, if a legitimate, alternative perspective comes along. You help by being willing to discuss what you have come to believe and why.

As far as the 'tithing' teaching goes, you tell them that not all Christians believe in, nor do all churches teach, the mandatory 'tithe' (which some like to call the "temple tax"). You tell them to read the bible. You ask them to try to prove for themselves that the 'tithe' is applicable to the New Testament church from within the New Testament itself. This can't be done, which is why Malachi 3 is always quoted by the tithe pushers. You explain how the 'tithe' in the Old Testament was actually a form of taxation for the nation of Israel. One who 'tithed' had simply payed his taxes, so to speak. Both the Old and New Testament speak about giving (free-will offering). God does want people to give, but please read what Paul says about giving. Where does he preach that Christians must tithe? (Remember, the tithe was a part of the law.)

Part of the reason I met with that SBC pastor so many years ago was because of my involvement in outreach to the poor. The church was fairly affluent, but I spent a lot of time reaching out in the projects and poor sections of town. I was trying to get people to come to Christ. Once God wins the heart, the person will be led by the Spirit. That is what it is all about. I was not about to tell some of these very poor families that now that they had accepted Christ, that they needed to give 10% of their income right off the top. Unless one has seen this level of poverty, they just don't have a clue as to how poor some are. There are many families that can easily afford to give as much as 20 or 30 percent (or more) of their income, while there are others that even a couple of percent would be a real sacrifice. I am not about to teach something that, for one, I believe is false, and two, may hamper the poor in their relationship with Jesus Christ. God wants their heart, not their money; and if He has the one, He will instruct them concerning the other.

billy-brown 2
May 31st 2010, 11:41 PM
Can someone tell me where in the Bible it tells that tithing means giving 10% of your money. I know what tithing is I'm just unclear about this.
Thanks


You talk to them privately. You tell them that probably every church has some questionable teachings. You tell them about the behind-the-scenes politics that are possibly at play. You tell them to read the bible for themself, and to not be afraid to make up their own mind - even if that means disagreeing with the pastor on some points. You tell them to examine all sides of an issue before making a decision, and if they do that honestly, they will surely disagree with the local leadership on some issues. It is just going to happen. And you tell them to always be willing to reexamine an issue from a different perspective, if a legitimate, alternative perspective comes along. You help by being willing to discuss what you have come to believe and why.

As far as the 'tithing' teaching goes, you tell them that not all Christians believe in, nor do all churches teach, the mandatory 'tithe' (which some like to call the "temple tax"). You tell them to read the bible. You ask them to try to prove for themselves that the 'tithe' is applicable to the New Testament church from within the New Testament itself. This can't be done, which is why Malachi 3 is always quoted by the tithe pushers. You explain how the 'tithe' in the Old Testament was actually a form of taxation for the nation of Israel. One who 'tithed' had simply payed his taxes, so to speak. Both the Old and New Testament speak about giving (free-will offering). God does want people to give, but please read what Paul says about giving. Where does he preach that Christians must tithe? (Remember, the tithe was a part of the law.)

Part of the reason I met with that SBC pastor so many years ago was because of my involvement in outreach to the poor. The church was fairly affluent, but I spent a lot of time reaching out in the projects and poor sections of town. I was trying to get people to come to Christ. Once God wins the heart, the person will be led by the Spirit. That is what it is all about. I was not about to tell some of these very poor families that now that they had accepted Christ, that they needed to give 10% of their income right off the top. Unless one has seen this level of poverty, they just don't have a clue as to how poor some are. There are many families that can easily afford to give as much as 20 or 30 percent (or more) of their income, while there are others that even a couple of percent would be a real sacrifice. I am not about to teach something that, for one, I believe is false, and two, may hamper the poor in their relationship with Jesus Christ. God wants their heart, not their money; and if He has the one, He will instruct them concerning the other.


I would tell the babe in Christ that there is sin in the church and no church is perfect. That is why Eph 4:11-13 says we need teachers, until the 2nd coming of Christ because we all need to grow in knowledge and understanding. I would encourage them to concentrate in growing themselves rather than pointing out what is wrong with others. Once the 2 by 4 if off my eye, I can then correct others. There is no perfect church, but if I find one, the moment I join it, it will no longer be perfect.

Shalom

Great insights, saints . . . there is perhaps no "doctrine" more highly charged than the "modern-day tithing" one, indeed.

And the young believer frequently must "unlearn" this abhorrent "teaching"--and you are helping with that . . .

I had to "unlearn" the abhorrent "teaching" also . . . and it was really hard to do, because the saints around would tell me that I was "cursed" if I did not obey what they were teaching on this (and so on).

Interesting . . . :o

stormgurl
Jun 1st 2010, 12:48 AM
I would share with the young believer the scriptures you have studied and encourage him or her to be diligent to search the Word in all matters. When sharing honor the leadership who is teaching this knowing that they are, more likely than not, sincere believers who love Jesus. By honoring the leaders with opposing views you teach the young believer to not be threatened by other views but to search the Scriptures and ask for wisdom.

I believe it is wisdom to ask the Lord what percentage He would have you give on a regular basis (say out of each paycheck) but to also be continually asking Him to show you if there are specific areas He would have you give more. I know my income is a gift from the Lord and it is wise to be a good steward of it! Instead of thinking of 10% as the Lord's (law) know it is 100% the Lord's (freedom!) and, with a thankful heart, ask what of that 100% He would invite you to sow into another person or ministry.

Servant89
Jun 1st 2010, 01:31 AM
I believe it is wisdom to ask the Lord what percentage He would have you give on a regular basis (say out of each paycheck) but to also be continually asking Him to show you if there are specific areas He would have you give more.

I agree with everything you posted here except the stuff quoted above. God said:

2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

It is not as God purposed in his heart, it is as we purposed in our hearts. If I ask God what percentage he would want me to give to him, His answer would be: "whatever amount will create the greatest joy in you". It is really up to us, not up to him to decide this. That is why it is called giving and not paying

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 1st 2010, 01:48 AM
2PE 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

JER 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 1st 2010, 01:52 AM
MAL 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse (NOT THE BANK), that there may be meat (NOT MONEY) in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. NOTE: THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN IN A BANK. THE BANK HAS NO LIMITS FOR MONEY. ONLY BARNS HAVE LIMITS ON THE CAPACITY TO HOLD AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, (AGAIN, THIS DEALS WITH AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, NOT MONEY) saith the LORD of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

Shalom

BadDog
Jun 1st 2010, 02:54 AM
Can someone tell me where in the Bible it tells that tithing means giving 10% of your money. I know what tithing is I'm just unclear about this.
ThanksPeace within,

I don't want to derail this thread, as I see this OP as simply asking if the idea of a tithe being 10% was biblical, which it is. But I agree with Bandit's ans servant89's comments regarding how the "tithe" is sometimes abused by churches. The tithe is not a NT command. It was instituted as part of the Levitical Law, though as has been pointed out, we see it prior to the Law. But we are no longer under the Law, and the tithe is not commanded in the NT. 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 are good chapters to study to get a view of the NT principle of giving, which is according to how each person has determined in his heart. I do see a tithe as a biblical principle and hence a good place to start when trying to determine how much to give to our churches and other ministries. Galatians 6:6 also tells us that the one who is taught the Word should give "all good things" to the one teaching (which may not be a pastor). IOW, we should feel an obligation to support the churches where we are being taught, as well as other Christians ministries, radio stations, etc.. But it should not cause a guilt trip.

Also, the OT tithe was not a tithe of money, but of livestock (mainly) or grain. They did not tithe of their money in the OT. The reason this is important is that we see that the tithe was all about the sacrificial system in place at the time.

It has become traditional in many denominations to view the tithe as a NT requirement. It is not. It has also become popular to say that the tithe should be taken before taxes, which also has no biblical basis. I have also heard that any giving to other ministries or charities should be after giving 10% to our church. While I do think that we should give to our churches first each month, it is very healthy to give to other ministries as well. That is the sort of giving seen in the NT. Actually FWIW we do not see giving to our local church in the NT, but the appeals and examples seen are concerning giving to other needs, so things seem to have flip-flopped there. Anyway there is no biblical basis for saying that we cannot give to other ministries or charities if that means decreasing what we give to our local churches. I believe these things are often done in a way that unnaturally places a guilt trip on the congregation. I don't see how it honors our Lord.

So I think the best advice I can give is to suggest that you study the NT principles for giving in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9. There are also several good OT texts on giving, esp. in the Proverbs. Just ignore the OT Levitical Law portions or anythign specifically referring to the tithe. There is much we can learn about giving liberally, though, in the OT:

Proverbs 11:2, 25 One man gives freely, yet grows all the richer; another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want. A generous person will be enriched, and one who waters will himself be watered.

Take care,

BD

Servant89
Jun 1st 2010, 10:58 AM
Those that think that quoting a law to the congregation is a more sure way of causing people to bear fruit, do not know the Lord, nor his plan, nor the power of His Spirit.

Shalom

Firefighter
Jun 1st 2010, 04:48 PM
While I agree with your position on tithing Servant89, I don't think it is very fair to say that those that believe differently than us do not know the Lord, his plan or the power of the Holy Spirit. I know many, many great men of God, full of the Holy Spirit that happen to believe in tithing.

RabbiKnife
Jun 1st 2010, 04:56 PM
Tithing never has anything to with time.

You cannot "tithe" time.

Firefighter
Jun 1st 2010, 06:00 PM
Tithing never has anything to with time.

You cannot "tithe" time.

Much like my beliefs on tithing monetarily, your time is ALL His too...

Servant89
Jun 1st 2010, 10:02 PM
While I agree with your position on tithing Servant89, I don't think it is very fair to say that those that believe differently than us do not know the Lord, his plan or the power of the Holy Spirit. I know many, many great men of God, full of the Holy Spirit that happen to believe in tithing.

I believe I earned that. I stand corrected. Thank you Urban Missionary. Thank you. I preached tithing myself for many years and my heart was right while I did it, but my understanding was messed up. However, immediately after someone showed me the truth, I valued the word of God more than my man-made theology. When people value the word of man more, after they have heard the word of God, that is a minefield we should not walk on.

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 1st 2010, 10:04 PM
Those that think that quoting a law to the congregation is a more sure way of causing people to bear fruit, do not know the Lord, nor his plan, nor the power of His Spirit.

Shalom

Gal 3:1-6 comes to mind. We shall be judged by the word at the end (John 12:47-48) and ignorance of it is no excuse, is it?.

Shalom

AndrewBaptistFL
Jun 2nd 2010, 09:45 AM
I like to think of giving/tithing/offering as a way of investing in God ordained ministries throughout the world. I have recently felt the need to invest my first ten percent in my church and the ministries that they have going. In addition, there are many Christian radio stations, disaster relief efforts, evangelist organizations and many other things that could use financial support. We should give in the manner and to whom God puts in our hearts to give.

didymus
Jun 2nd 2010, 03:38 PM
Oh yes we have to !!!! Because God is stiff when it comes to tithing. The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,8,11,18; Deu 14:23).

DEU 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

And God said he was very specific about doing it exactly like that and not to twist this commandment based on human reasoning (Deu 12:8,32).

So, how do you explain the usage of scripture quotes in the examples I gave?

Listen up!!! We can not give what does not belong to us. We are called to give as we purposed in our hearts because it is ours to give. The law of tithing demands a payment. People in the OT paid tithes, they did not give tithes because it did not belonged to them (God gave the increase of the agricultural products and as such, he did most of the work and the 10% belonged to him). We do not pay tithes, we give from what we own, as we purposed in our hearts.

Sure, it may be technically 'ours', but surely we have nothing without God having willed it for us. Would we be willing to give 100% of what we owned, like jesus told the rich man to do. I'm not arguing that everyone absolutely needs to pay 10% (I don't do it myself). My pastor preaches tithing as well, but he puts emphasis on God's blessing over what we give and how he returns it to us when we need it most because of His faithfulness. truthfully though, it's the same with whatever amount we give. Even if God didn't do so, though, as believer's we should be willing to give away everything and leave everything behind in order to serve Him, just as the disciples give. So I suppose my point is not about giving a specific percent, but whether we would be willing to give any amount.

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2010, 01:37 AM
Why is it that so many tithers can not keep their giving to themselves and have to tell others how much they give?

Mt 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

What people fail to realize is how UGLY and WRONG it is from God's point of view to TEACH (there is nothing wrong with the practice, there is everything wrong with the teaching) the doctrine that we owe God 10% of our gross salary.

Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Shalom

AndrewBaptistFL
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:05 AM
Mark 12:17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

We don't owe God 10% of our income; we literally owe Him our very selves! Through sin, we have all built up a debt that we could never pay, not by money or even shedding our own blood. It's only through Jesus that we have been saved from a body of death.
It was God who gave us our talents and abilities, God who led us to apply for whatever job we have now, God who gave our present employers the disposition to hire us, God that allows us to excel and God that gives our employers the money to pay us. Therefore, all we have, money and possessions bought with money have been given to us by our Heavenly Father,

Luke 19:13
So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'

We are clearly charged to invest the money that God gives us to build His kingdom on earth. Jesus never told us to be tight-fisted in relation to giving.

AndrewBaptistFL
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:26 AM
Why is it that so many tithers can not keep their giving to themselves and have to tell others how much they give?



A person’s tithe can be mathematically figured by anyone who really cares to do so based on what they knew about the person tithing using the average wages of the given occupation. For example, a grocery bagger may tithe $1,800 over the course of a year and a pediatrician $18,000. This is utterly unimportant unless you are the person tithing, as each of us should be primarily concerned with our own actions (not in a selfish, neglectful way to others, but in a non-judgmental sense).
So, if a lawyer mentions in conversation that they tithe, I wouldn’t assume that they are sinning simply by saying that they tithe. The Lord looks on each person’s heart. If the knowledge of tithing is passed from the one tithing in an effort to gain honor for themselves, then they are clearly in the wrong; but possibly others can be encouraged to do good (is tithing ever sinful?) by realizing that other people do so as well.
Have we ever discussed tithes verses offering in this forum? It’s my understanding that the tithe would be the first ten percent (which is expected) and the offering is anything above and beyond. Is this so? I don’t think that the offering absolutely has to go to the church, but could also go to other ministries which God would delight in, such as buying tents for the homeless or sending food to hungry people in Louisiana, Haiti, and etcetera.
What are your thoughts?

Firstfruits
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:38 AM
Would those that teach tithing accept your tithe if you gave it as God commanded, once every three years, as the other two years belong to you and your family?

Deut 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

Deut 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

Firstfruits

AndrewBaptistFL
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:59 AM
Possibly our thinking has become a little derailed in relation to giving.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Therefore, we should not give to our church or other ministries because we feel we must, but instead give out of the pleasure of doing good! Think of the wonderful things we (or whomever we entrust with our money at church, etcetera) could do with our "extra" money. For example, if we give twenty dollars each week to church, that would be eighty dollars each month, which would add up to $960 each year! On a well-known Bible sales website, you can purchase a case of twenty-eight imitation leather gift Bibles for $127.22, which means that your $960, you could be inadvertently purchasing in excess of 211 Bibles to be distributed to 211 families or people who did not have access to one previously!!!!! So your investment has already blessed at least 211 people! Now, let’s suppose that a quarter of those people actually come to know Jesus through the Bibles that you purchased and the people who gave them. That would mean that your investment helped win fifty-two people to the Lord! Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, those people will talk to others about Jesus and possibly even invest money of their own in Godly ministries which will in turn bless and enrich even more people!
So you can easily see the far-reaching effects of donating a mere $20 each week to Godly service. There are a myriad of other situations where even our smallest efforts can be greatly multiplied by God to help fulfill His purpose! Isn’t this exciting???

Firstfruits
Jun 3rd 2010, 12:07 PM
Possibly our thinking has become a little derailed in relation to giving.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Therefore, we should not give to our church or other ministries because we feel we must, but instead give out of the pleasure of doing good! Think of the wonderful things we (or whomever we entrust with our money at church, etcetera) could do with our "extra" money. For example, if we give twenty dollars each week to church, that would be eighty dollars each month, which would add up to $960 each year! On a well-known Bible sales website, you can purchase a case of twenty-eight imitation leather gift Bibles for $127.22, which means that your $960, you could be inadvertently purchasing in excess of 211 Bibles to be distributed to 211 families or people who did not have access to one previously!!!!! So your investment has already blessed at least 211 people! Now, let’s suppose that a quarter of those people actually come to know Jesus through the Bibles that you purchased and the people who gave them. That would mean that your investment helped win fifty-two people to the Lord! Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, those people will talk to others about Jesus and possibly even invest money of their own in Godly ministries which will in turn bless and enrich even more people!
So you can easily see the far-reaching effects of donating a mere $20 each week to Godly service. There are a myriad of other situations where even our smallest efforts can be greatly multiplied by God to help fulfill His purpose! Isn’t this exciting???

The thing with 2 Corinthians 9:7 is that it is not about tithing, is is about the collection for the poor saints.

Firstfruits

AndrewBaptistFL
Jun 3rd 2010, 12:13 PM
The thing with 2 Corinthians 9:7 is that it is not about tithing, is is about the collection for the poor saints.

Firstfruits

Can you see the benefits of investing money in Godly endeavors? Iím positive that you can. :)

Firstfruits
Jun 3rd 2010, 12:28 PM
Can you see the benefits of investing money in Godly endeavors? I’m positive that you can. :)

Yes I can, but it should not be labled "Tithing".

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Servant89
Jun 4th 2010, 01:10 AM
Jesus never told us to be tight-fisted in relation to giving.

Why is it that tithers always assume that those that declare the modern teaching of "tithing" to be a man-made law, that we do it because we give less than 10%? Why is that? Judging us based on a man-made law?

The issue on this thread is whether 10% of our salary belongs to God or not, and if we are stealing from him if we keep it. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that.

Acts 5:4 states 100% of my money belongs to me, why argue with God? That is why I can chose freely to give it away or not.

We can not give what does not belong to us. If it belongs to God, then we need to pay what we owe him, that is not giving, that is making a payment. The Lord is not into cheerful payers of debts, he is into cheerful givers.

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 4th 2010, 01:20 AM
I wouldn't assume that they are sinning simply by saying that they tithe.

Have you read the Bible? From cover to cover, verse by verse? How many times? It is all over the place! It is boasting about the law, and worse of all, boasting about a man-made law.


(is tithing ever sinful?)

It is sinful to teach commandments of men as if they are from God, yes. The secret practice of giving a percentage or our income? No, that is not wrong. Why 10%? because it boasts about a level of goodness.


It’s my understanding that the tithe would be the first ten percent (which is expected) and the offering is anything above and beyond. Is this so? What are your thoughts?

The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32). It is not the first 10%, it is the last 10% of the cattle, the last 10% of the agricultural products.

Shalom

AndrewBaptistFL
Jun 4th 2010, 10:58 AM
Have you read the Bible? From cover to cover, verse by verse? How many times? It is all over the place! It is boasting about the law, and worse of all, boasting about a man-made law.



It is sinful to teach commandments of men as if they are from God, yes. The secret practice of giving a percentage or our income? No, that is not wrong. Why 10%? because it boasts about a level of goodness.



The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32). It is not the first 10%, it is the last 10% of the cattle, the last 10% of the agricultural products.

Shalom

Thank you for putting the tithe into context. Yes, I've read the Bible cover-to-cover about eight or nine times so I am hardly a scholar. I've still much to learn and grasp. I do feel that giving is important whether we call it an offering, donation, etcetera. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter.
Shall we say then, that it is okay to give/tithe/offer if we feel that the Lord wants us to do so and if we are able to do so cheerfully? Not out of a sense of obligation or compulsion?

Firstfruits
Jun 4th 2010, 11:06 AM
Have you read the Bible? From cover to cover, verse by verse? How many times? It is all over the place! It is boasting about the law, and worse of all, boasting about a man-made law.



It is sinful to teach commandments of men as if they are from God, yes. The secret practice of giving a percentage or our income? No, that is not wrong. Why 10%? because it boasts about a level of goodness.



The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32). It is not the first 10%, it is the last 10% of the cattle, the last 10% of the agricultural products.
Shalom

Would you agree that regarding the definition of the tithe, if we are not giving 10% we cannot call it tithing?

Firstfruits

AndrewBaptistFL
Jun 4th 2010, 04:28 PM
Would you agree that regarding the definition of the tithe, if we are not giving 10% we cannot call it tithing?

Firstfruits

Yes, I agree with you.

Servant89
Jun 4th 2010, 09:57 PM
Shall we say then, that it is okay to give/tithe/offer if we feel that the Lord wants us to do so and if we are able to do so cheerfully? Not out of a sense of obligation or compulsion?

Yes (except for that part in red). It is never as God purposed in his heart. It is as WE purposed in OUR hearts. If I tell you I want you to give me $10 now and you do it. It is not as perfect as if you do it without a command. That's the key, without a command.

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 4th 2010, 10:04 PM
Would you agree that regarding the definition of the tithe, if we are not giving 10% we cannot call it tithing?

Firstfruits

That's right,

Abraham tithed the spoils of war (and gave the remaining 90% to the people, he kept nothing of the spoils of war). Jacob made a vow to tithe (10% of his profit) under the condition of being blessed first. After the law of tithing was removed with the Temple being gone, there is no law of giving agricultural products anymore. There was never a law of giving 10% of our income, never. We can call it tithe if someone makes a vow of giving 10%.

Shalom

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 13th 2010, 03:46 PM
Hi Servant89,
Thanks for this writeup. I'm starting to research this and it's very useful.


In Deu 10:9, Deu 18:1-2 and Josh 13:14,33 we see that there was no land given to the Levites (the descendants of Levi) and because of that, God commanded the other brothers to provide the Levites with part of their agricultural products from the land (since the Levites had no land to grow crops or raise cattle). The Lord told them to give a tenth of the agricultural products OF THE LAND to the Levites and the poor and needy because the Levites (and the poor) had no land as an inheritance. The Lord referred to this arrangement as:

a. The tithe of the land (Lev 27:30)
b. The tithe of the ground (Neh 10:37)
c. The tithe of the field (Deu 14:22; 1Chr 31:4-6; Neh 12:44)

I think u meant 2 Chr 31:4-6, probably a typo.


It was never referred to as the tithe of the ocean or the sea. It was never referred to as the tithe of the furniture manufactured in Israel or the tithe of the building materials. The tithe had to be agricultural products that had to be eaten. Nothing is said about forbidding the Levites from fishing or not having bodies of water. As such, Israel did not have to give the Levites 10% of their fish. It was all about agricultural products that had to be eaten (produce and clean animals from the herds raised in the land of Israel). The reason is because the Levites could not own land to grow crops or raise cattle.

The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)

1. Only land owners (farmers) that were growing crops or raising cattle had to tithe. People that did not own land could not tithe. The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock like lambs, sheep, goats, etc.. (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37; Neh 13:5,12). The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe. When Peter caught 153 fishes (John 21:11), he owed nothing as tithe offering because it is the tithe of the land, not the sea.
2. Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income. According to the law of Moses, money was not accepted by God as a tithe offering.
3. The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance, they had the Lord as their inheritance.
4. Tithing was also given to the poor and needy (widows, orphans, newcomers to the land). Tithing was part of Godís welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13). To ask the poor to tithe is exactly the opposite of what God established in His Word. See Appendix B for more information.

Deu 12:29 doesn't seem connected to tithing, perhaps a typo?



5. The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29). The Levites will then bring the tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem.

A question. When all the land owners went up to Jerusalem to eat their tithe in front of the Lord every third year, and the Levites, poor, widows, aliens were free to come along and eat with them, what about the rest of the people who's livelihood does not depend on the land? What about the tradesmen, merchants, etc.? They are not included under those who're allowed to partake (poor, widows, orphans, Levites, aliens) and they do not have land produce, so are these excluded from going?

Are all Israelites required to go?

Also if the Israelites only brought food for the Levites every 3 years, what are the Levites and priests to eat in between? Surely all the food will not last for 3 years? Or is there another provision for the Levites?

This once every 3 year tithe seems to be for them to eat to enjoy (a one time event), or is it meant to sustain them for 3 years?

Thank you.

Servant89
Jun 13th 2010, 11:10 PM
Hi Servant89,
Thanks for this writeup. I'm starting to research this and it's very useful.
I think u meant 2 Chr 31:4-6, probably a typo.
Deu 12:29 doesn't seem connected to tithing, perhaps a typo?
A question. When all the land owners went up to Jerusalem to eat their tithe in front of the Lord every third year, and the Levites, poor, widows, aliens were free to come along and eat with them, what about the rest of the people who's livelihood does not depend on the land? What about the tradesmen, merchants, etc.? They are not included under those who're allowed to partake (poor, widows, orphans, Levites, aliens) and they do not have land produce, so are these excluded from going?
Are all Israelites required to go?
Also if the Israelites only brought food for the Levites every 3 years, what are the Levites and priests to eat in between? Surely all the food will not last for 3 years? Or is there another provision for the Levites?
This once every 3 year tithe seems to be for them to eat to enjoy (a one time event), or is it meant to sustain them for 3 years?
Thank you.

Man thank you! Thank you for telling me about my errors. I appreciate that.

Let me take the time to answer you well.

Thanks again!

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 13th 2010, 11:37 PM
I think u meant 2 Chr 31:4-6, probably a typo.

Bingo! You are correct, it should be 2 Chr 31:4-6

Deu 12:29 doesn't seem connected to tithing, perhaps a typo?

Deu 12 is connected with tithing (See Deu 12:6,11,17) , but it is not connected with tithing as a welfare system. Thanks again, good point.

A question. When all the land owners went up to Jerusalem to eat their tithe in front of the Lord every third year, and the Levites, poor, widows, aliens were free to come along and eat with them, what about the rest of the people who's livelihood does not depend on the land? What about the tradesmen, merchants, etc.? They are not included under those who're allowed to partake (poor, widows, orphans, Levites, aliens) and they do not have land produce, so are these excluded from going?

I never thougth about that before. Great point. I see nothing in the Bible talking about including others, but I am sure rich people could invite neighbors to enjoy their wealthy offering. Without invitation I think they are excluded from going on the year of tithing. Because when a hair dresser cuts hair, God does not help them at all to do that. Rom 4:4 says so, the salary of a barber belongs 100% to the barber. Acts 5:4 repeats it again. But when a farmer raises cattle or grows corn, God does most of the work, and he wants his part back.

Are all Israelites required to go?

Only those that owns land and uses it to raise animals or grow produce.

Also if the Israelites only brought food for the Levites every 3 years, what are the Levites and priests to eat in between? Surely all the food will not last for 3 years? Or is there another provision for the Levites?

A lot of the food would last 3 years (all grains). Grapes were turned to wine and strong drink. The animals were brought alive. But the 3 year requirement was probably meant for those living far away. Those living within Israel would probably bring their tithes on a monthly basis.

This once every 3 year tithe seems to be for them to eat to enjoy (a one time event), or is it meant to sustain them for 3 years?

It was meant to sustain them 3 years. If they did that, the second offering would last four years because the 7th year they were not supposed to work the land at all, they were supposed to leave the land at rest.

Shalom

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 14th 2010, 12:50 AM
Thanks Servant89. Rom 4:4 is actually not talking about working/salary but is talking about salvation by works so I don't think I agree that it can be used in this case.

Regarding land ownership, I thought about this somemore. It seems unthinkable to me that God would exclude certain people from going to Jerusalem to eat and enjoy in the 3rd year because of their profession. Because in the accounts God constantly reminds them not to forget or exclude the Levites or the poor or widows etc. This reminder is very pervasive, so I don't think God would exclude anyone. Then I thought about the division of the inheritance when they entered the promised land and thought back on land ownership.

I think every family/tribe within Israel were given land inheritance (except Levites). From what I know of Middle Eastern culture, land is also passed down for many generations. Thus I think that every family owned land, even though it might be an extended family. So even for people whose trades are not directly related to agriculture I suppose that their family own land and they still would get some income from that land, and they might go up and celebrate based on the produce of the family land.

So maybe individually they might not own any land, but as an extended family they would. Then another thought comes to mind - it seems unfair if only the person working the land had to contribute while the rest could just go and eat of his produce....

Servant89
Jun 14th 2010, 09:36 PM
Thanks Servant89. Rom 4:4 is actually not talking about working/salary but is talking about salvation by works so I don't think I agree that it can be used in this case. ....

Rom 4:4 But to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

You are correct, it is referring to salvation by works. Absolutely. But it shows a Bible principle that those that work, they have earned their rewards. There is another verse that compares the two. Wages = salary = something we have earned, compared to a gift which is not earned.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Regarding land ownership, I thought about this some more. It seems unthinkable to me that God would exclude certain people from going to Jerusalem to eat and enjoy in the 3rd year because of their profession. Because in the accounts God constantly reminds them not to forget or exclude the Levites or the poor or widows etc. This reminder is very pervasive, so I don't think God would exclude anyone. Then I thought about the division of the inheritance when they entered the promised land and thought back on land ownership. I think every family/tribe within Israel were given land inheritance (except Levites). From what I know of Middle Eastern culture, land is also passed down for many generations. Thus I think that every family owned land, even though it might be an extended family. So even for people whose trades are not directly related to agriculture I suppose that their family own land and they still would get some income from that land, and they might go up and celebrate based on the produce of the family land. So maybe individually they might not own any land, but as an extended family they would.....

I have to say, I agree with you. I do. Thanks!


Then another thought comes to mind - it seems unfair if only the person working the land had to contribute while the rest could just go and eat of his produce....

But doctrine is not based on what seems good to us or not. Doctrine should be based on the word of God alone. If God refers to it as the tithe of the land, and specifically calls out animals or produce or products from the land, then that’s it. God stated in Deu 12:8,32, not to come up with tithing offering based on what it seems good in our eyes, not to add to it, not to subtract from it, but to teach it exactly the way it was given to us. Whether it seems fair to us or not. Only those that raised cattle had to bring cattle (as a tithing offering) whether that is fair to the rest of the people or not. The tithing command by Moses was to pay to God what certain people owed God. Only those that got cattle born in their farms owed God cattle. No one else owed him any cattle.

Shalom