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ThyWordIsTruth
May 31st 2010, 03:29 PM
Jas 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Would appreciate some help to have a deeper understanding of these verses and the principles they're trying to teach.

1) What exactly does "speak evil" encompass? Can any examples be given?

2) What does "speaking against a brother" or "judge a brother" encompass? Can you give me some examples?

3) My commentary says we're not to judge a brother's actions and motives, is that correct? Also, are we forbidden to judge the state of salvaiton of a professed "brother?"

Thanks.

Firstfruits
May 31st 2010, 03:40 PM
Jas 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Would appreciate some help to have a deeper understanding of these verses and the principles they're trying to teach.

1) What exactly does "speak evil" encompass? Can any examples be given?

2) What does "speaking against a brother" or "judge a brother" encompass? Can you give me some examples?

3) My commentary says we're not to judge a brother's actions and motives, is that correct? Also, are we forbidden to judge the state of salvaiton of a professed "brother?"

Thanks.

We are to judge according to that by which we also shall be judged, the gospel of Christ.

Jn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but Judge righteous judgment.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Firstfruits

ThyWordIsTruth
May 31st 2010, 03:54 PM
Hi FF,
Thanks for the reply. I'm looking for practical day-to-day examples of how we're to obey these commands. I need an in-depth practical understanding of what we are not to do.

moonglow
May 31st 2010, 04:22 PM
Jas 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Would appreciate some help to have a deeper understanding of these verses and the principles they're trying to teach.

1) What exactly does "speak evil" encompass? Can any examples be given?

2) What does "speaking against a brother" or "judge a brother" encompass? Can you give me some examples?

3) My commentary says we're not to judge a brother's actions and motives, is that correct? Also, are we forbidden to judge the state of salvaiton of a professed "brother?"

Thanks.

Hi ThyWordIsTruth...I think in order to understand fully what the bible is saying about this on judging other believers you need to consider all the passages on it. Clearly the bible does tell us to judge in certain situations...1 Corinthians 5 is a good example of one. But the one you posted says don't speak 'evil' about another Christian. Speaking evil about someone is just saying mean things...bad things about them. Its gossiping, slander, hateful speech which of course we are to avoid. Its not about rightly judging their sins like we see in 1 Corinthians 5.

James goes along with what Christ said about hating a brother (another Christian).

1 John 2:9
If anyone claims, “I am living in the light,” but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is still living in darkness.

The 'judging' talked about in James is unfair judging..hypercritical judging..what Jesus talks about here:

Matthew 7
Do Not Judge Others
“Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged.

3 “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? 4 How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye

Then we have the Godly righteous way of judging..

Matthew 7

15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

The bible gives very clear guidelines on when and how to judge another Christian..its not to be done with evil intentions as James talks about...its not to be done in a 'holier then thou' type of way either.

Hope this helps!

God bless

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 3rd 2010, 03:41 AM
Jas 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Would appreciate some help to have a deeper understanding of these verses and the principles they're trying to teach.

1) What exactly does "speak evil" encompass? Can any examples be given?

2) What does "speaking against a brother" or "judge a brother" encompass? Can you give me some examples?

3) My commentary says we're not to judge a brother's actions and motives, is that correct? Also, are we forbidden to judge the state of salvaiton of a professed "brother?"

Thanks.

To the 3rd and maybe a little to the 2nd...
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

This gets me in hot water with those non-christians who were raised in church. They know that the Bible says judge not let ye be judged. Then when I show them this passage they say I didn't know that was in there. Then I have come across many Christians who didn't know this either. Seems overlooked too often.

Paul tells us that we are to judge those inside the church and if they are immoral do not even eat with them. I believe that it is for the purposes that Paul told Timothy...

1 Timothy 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 3rd 2010, 04:00 AM
Thank you.. hmm..so it would seem that we are called to judge. If we don't judge we won't know who the sexually immoral, greedy, idolater, slanderer, drunkards or swindlers are.

I still need to internalize this to get a complete understanding. I'm always confused as to what kind of judging is right and what kind is wrong, which is why my request for practical everyday examples would help. I'm not very clear on where to draw that line.

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 3rd 2010, 06:03 AM
hey why are there so few responses to real needful bible questions but tons of responses in theological debate threads?? help! :D

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:31 AM
Thank you.. hmm..so it would seem that we are called to judge. If we don't judge we won't know who the sexually immoral, greedy, idolater, slanderer, drunkards or swindlers are.

I still need to internalize this to get a complete understanding. I'm always confused as to what kind of judging is right and what kind is wrong, which is why my request for practical everyday examples would help. I'm not very clear on where to draw that line.

I believe we judge those inside to expose sin and to correct. To many churches out there today will not make a stand on right and wrong. They stay away from any scripture that is controversial. Paul tells us to call a spade a spade. Also, in this same chapter of 1 Cor. 5 Paul tells them to hand a man over to Satan so that his soul may possibly be saved. This is punishment and correction at its core. We all need our toes stepped on from time to time.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:32 AM
hey why are there so few responses to real needful bible questions but tons of responses in theological debate threads?? help! :D

Usually I'm guilty of that myself but for some reason I found myself in this topic and thought I would give you my $.02.

Firstfruits
Jun 3rd 2010, 12:24 PM
This is how we are to deal with those that are contrary to the will of God even though they may claim to be of God.

2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Sorry for being so blunt with the scriptures, but that is what we are commanded.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Uncle Bud
Jun 3rd 2010, 02:18 PM
Jas 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Would appreciate some help to have a deeper understanding of these verses and the principles they're trying to teach.

1) What exactly does "speak evil" encompass? Can any examples be given?

2) What does "speaking against a brother" or "judge a brother" encompass? Can you give me some examples?

3) My commentary says we're not to judge a brother's actions and motives, is that correct? Also, are we forbidden to judge the state of salvaiton of a professed "brother?"

Thanks.

1) False report designed to tarnish their reputation
2) Judging means to form a harsh opinion without good evidence
3) Maybe, but we can know a tree by it's fruits.

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 3rd 2010, 03:38 PM
I believe we judge those inside to expose sin and to correct. To many churches out there today will not make a stand on right and wrong. They stay away from any scripture that is controversial. Paul tells us to call a spade a spade. Also, in this same chapter of 1 Cor. 5 Paul tells them to hand a man over to Satan so that his soul may possibly be saved. This is punishment and correction at its core. We all need our toes stepped on from time to time.

I read up more on the net on this today, and we're told to correct with love, and always with a view of restoring the brother or sister to God.

One question I have is this: is it wrong to try to discern if a fellow church goer is or is not truly born again? Reason for this is to know so I can reach out and pray for him/her. But the commentary I was reading says we're not to judged other people's motives/actions/salvation because God is the judge.

I was thinking if I don't know, how could I pray for this person, or try to encourage them to the right path?

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 3rd 2010, 03:42 PM
Hi FF,


This is how we are to deal with those that are contrary to the will of God even though they may claim to be of God.

2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

I believe this was Paul's instructions to Timothy and pastors, not all believers?


Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

This is actually an instruction for a pastor I think. I don't know if all believers are to do this. And this is speaking of people who teach doctrines contrary to that handed down by Christ and the apostles, teaching deviant doctrines, not fellow brothers/sisters I think.


Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Sorry for being so blunt with the scriptures, but that is what we are commanded.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Similarly these are also instructions to a pastor, Tit 2:15 is particularly instructions to Timothy a young pastor, who had older people in his congregation who were perhaps not giving him the due respect as their under-shepherd.

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 3rd 2010, 03:45 PM
1) False report designed to tarnish their reputation
2) Judging means to form a harsh opinion without good evidence
3) Maybe, but we can know a tree by it's fruits.

thank you, very helpful. however for (1) let's say it's something true about a brother/sister, are we even allowed to talk about their behaviour or whatever in private with someone else?

notuptome
Jun 3rd 2010, 08:33 PM
Lev 19:15-18 is a likely source of the teaching on judging others.

We are not to be a talebearer or a gossip among the people.

We do not provoke confrontation with or neighbor.

We do not wish our neighbor dead.

We do not seek revenge against our neighbor.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Uncle Bud
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:28 PM
thank you, very helpful. however for (1) let's say it's something true about a brother/sister, are we even allowed to talk about their behaviour or whatever in private with someone else?

I have heard it said that if the person we are telling is not part of the problem or the solution, we shouldn't tell them even if it's true. I think that is good advice.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 4th 2010, 03:09 AM
I read up more on the net on this today, and we're told to correct with love, and always with a view of restoring the brother or sister to God.

One question I have is this: is it wrong to try to discern if a fellow church goer is or is not truly born again? Reason for this is to know so I can reach out and pray for him/her. But the commentary I was reading says we're not to judged other people's motives/actions/salvation because God is the judge.

I was thinking if I don't know, how could I pray for this person, or try to encourage them to the right path?

If they call themselves a brother as scripture says you are to judge their actions...sure, correct them with love and if that doesn't work then move on to tuff love. They might honestly not know that what they are doing is wrong and by just saying that the Bible says that what you are doing is wrong just might be enough to correct them. Judging is not always harsh but sin has to be exposed for what it is. I think the commentary is contrary to scripture. I gave you the scripture and it's not hidden in a parable...it's pretty straightforward. I've heard it said that we are "fruit inspectors" not of the world but of our brothers and they should be mine as well. Bible tells us to confess our sins one to another and I think this is the exposing process that is critical for Christians to grow in grace and knowledge. When we mess up we confess it, repent of it, and learn from it and not hide it.

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 4th 2010, 03:36 AM
thanks!

10 char

BroRog
Jun 4th 2010, 04:05 AM
Jas 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Would appreciate some help to have a deeper understanding of these verses and the principles they're trying to teach.

1) What exactly does "speak evil" encompass? Can any examples be given?

2) What does "speaking against a brother" or "judge a brother" encompass? Can you give me some examples?

3) My commentary says we're not to judge a brother's actions and motives, is that correct? Also, are we forbidden to judge the state of salvaiton of a professed "brother?"

Thanks.

As seekers and lovers of truth, we should always strive to gain keen insight and use good judgement; and we should never be afraid to live with our eyes open. This is why I don't think James is talking about judgment of this kind. Rather, condemnation of a brother seems to be his concern here. The issue involves a person who pronounces a sentence of condemnation on another person as if to say, "If I were God that other person would be put in hell." To "judge" in this way is to confer some sort of eternal divine punishment upon the other person.

Here the tongue is used as a weapon in the context of public discourse. As an example, suppose you are in a group of friends and someone says, "Obama is an evil man and when he stands before the judge, he is going to get what's coming to him." Your friend intends to express very strong disapproval of the man's policies or the man himself. And this verbal disapproval speaks to both motive and eternal punishment. This is one way in which a person speaks "against" another in judgment.

James is saying, your friend's prejudicial statements, which reveal preconceived beliefs not based on facts or evidence, places himself above the law and thereby (perhaps inadvertantly) judges the law itself. Its as if your friend isn't willing to let President Obama stand or fall on the merits of the case before a law court. Your friend doesn't need to hear both sides of the story or any thing Mr. Obama has to say about it. He has already condemned the president, and in the process, placed himself above both the Law and God himself. This is why James says, "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?" In other words, there is only one person who has the power and authority to "save and destroy" and it isn't your friend.

[Now, I apologize for personalizing my explanation. I didn't mean to suggest that you actually have such a friend.]

BroRog
Jun 4th 2010, 04:19 AM
I read up more on the net on this today, and we're told to correct with love, and always with a view of restoring the brother or sister to God.

One question I have is this: is it wrong to try to discern if a fellow church goer is or is not truly born again? Reason for this is to know so I can reach out and pray for him/her. But the commentary I was reading says we're not to judged other people's motives/actions/salvation because God is the judge.

I was thinking if I don't know, how could I pray for this person, or try to encourage them to the right path?

First off, don't be thrown off by James' use of the term "brother". Everybody on his block was a "brother." The term has the same use as "Ladies and Gentlemen" does for us today. Just because we refer to everyone in the audience as Ladies and Gentlemen doesn't mean we actually know this to be the case. It's just polite convention.

I think it's always good to pray for each other, whether we know them to be born again or not.

With regard to judging other peoples motives, etc. I think James was not afraid to evaluate others based on their behavior and assess whether a person was actually a believer or not. However, even when we discover evil in another person we still have a choice to make: we can condemn them to hell, or we can pray for them and wish them the best, leaving their final destiny in God's hands.

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 4th 2010, 05:33 AM
As seekers and lovers of truth, we should always strive to gain keen insight and use good judgement; and we should never be afraid to live with our eyes open. This is why I don't think James is talking about judgment of this kind. Rather, condemnation of a brother seems to be his concern here. The issue involves a person who pronounces a sentence of condemnation on another person as if to say, "If I were God that other person would be put in hell." To "judge" in this way is to confer some sort of eternal divine punishment upon the other person.

Here the tongue is used as a weapon in the context of public discourse. As an example, suppose you are in a group of friends and someone says, "Obama is an evil man and when he stands before the judge, he is going to get what's coming to him." Your friend intends to express very strong disapproval of the man's policies or the man himself. And this verbal disapproval speaks to both motive and eternal punishment. This is one way in which a person speaks "against" another in judgment.

James is saying, your friend's prejudicial statements, which reveal preconceived beliefs not based on facts or evidence, places himself above the law and thereby (perhaps inadvertantly) judges the law itself. Its as if your friend isn't willing to let President Obama stand or fall on the merits of the case before a law court. Your friend doesn't need to hear both sides of the story or any thing Mr. Obama has to say about it. He has already condemned the president, and in the process, placed himself above both the Law and God himself. This is why James says, "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?" In other words, there is only one person who has the power and authority to "save and destroy" and it isn't your friend.

[Now, I apologize for personalizing my explanation. I didn't mean to suggest that you actually have such a friend.]

Thanks BroRog, this is very helpful and I think is an accurate explaination of what the verses says and I agree with everything you wrote.

However I am reminded of some of the things Paul, Jude and Peter said regarding false teachers, which in effect is judging them for eternity

Rom 3:8 And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

- ok this could be a description of what false prophets have coming to them, and might not constitute as judging

Jud 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.
2Ti 4:15 Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message.

How do we understand the sayings of Paul in particular, and also Jude and Peter? Are are they exempt from judging since they're writing under the inspiraiton of the Holy Spirit? Apologies if I seem daft, I'm still struggling with drawing the line between right and wrong judging. Thanks very much for your input.

Firstfruits
Jun 4th 2010, 09:36 AM
Hi FF,



I believe this was Paul's instructions to Timothy and pastors, not all believers?

This is actually an instruction for a pastor I think. I don't know if all believers are to do this. And this is speaking of people who teach doctrines contrary to that handed down by Christ and the apostles, teaching deviant doctrines, not fellow brothers/sisters I think.



Similarly these are also instructions to a pastor, Tit 2:15 is particularly instructions to Timothy a young pastor, who had older people in his congregation who were perhaps not giving him the due respect as their under-shepherd.

Do we not regard pastors as brothers, and if so would the following not apply to them?

2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Are pastors not included in "Let no man despise thee"?

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jun 4th 2010, 03:53 PM
Thanks BroRog, this is very helpful and I think is an accurate explaination of what the verses says and I agree with everything you wrote.

However I am reminded of some of the things Paul, Jude and Peter said regarding false teachers, which in effect is judging them for eternity

Rom 3:8 And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

- ok this could be a description of what false prophets have coming to them, and might not constitute as judging

Jud 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.
2Ti 4:15 Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message.

How do we understand the sayings of Paul in particular, and also Jude and Peter? Are are they exempt from judging since they're writing under the inspiraiton of the Holy Spirit? Apologies if I seem daft, I'm still struggling with drawing the line between right and wrong judging. Thanks very much for your input.

Well, I think we should continue to walk with eyes open, but treat this subject with great caution. I need to bear in mind that the Apostles were given the special ability to read the motives and hearts of people and so they are in a privilaged position with respect to judging others. Having said this, I note that in 2Timothy, Paul puts final judgment in the hands of the Lord, who will "repay him according to his deeds." This seems a little softer than, "shall we call down fire on them Jesus?" I am reminded, however, of David's Imprecatory Psalms, in which he cursed his enemies. In this case, though David's enemies made things personal, his curses were not a matter of personal revenge, but a cry out to the Lord for him to restore God's name and honor.

I know my answers aren't adequate enough. We should keep the dialogue open and perhaps others will help us out.

ThyWordIsTruth
Jun 5th 2010, 01:35 AM
Well, I think we should continue to walk with eyes open, but treat this subject with great caution. I need to bear in mind that the Apostles were given the special ability to read the motives and hearts of people and so they are in a privilaged position with respect to judging others. Having said this, I note that in 2Timothy, Paul puts final judgment in the hands of the Lord, who will "repay him according to his deeds." This seems a little softer than, "shall we call down fire on them Jesus?" I am reminded, however, of David's Imprecatory Psalms, in which he cursed his enemies. In this case, though David's enemies made things personal, his curses were not a matter of personal revenge, but a cry out to the Lord for him to restore God's name and honor.

I know my answers aren't adequate enough. We should keep the dialogue open and perhaps others will help us out.

Thanks very much for the response. Appreciate it!

inn
Jun 6th 2010, 10:54 PM
3) My commentary says we're not to judge a brother's actions and motives, is that correct? Also, are we forbidden to judge the state of salvaiton of a professed "brother?"


I feel the commentary is right. The next question has a little question mark, but scripture does teach we will KNOW them by their fruit, and Cor teaches to judge those inside the church, so when we mix this together with love, we may get a positive flavour.

Warrior4God
Jun 7th 2010, 05:25 PM
I believe when a person that claims to be a believer in Jesus Christ sins we shouldn't try to judge them in the sense that we think we're holier than thou. True Christians do still mess up. However, if they're involved in blatant and serious sin but express no desire to stop and repent we are to pass judgment, using God's Word, and expel them until they decide to turn away from their sin. That's not punishment or condemnation from us. It's correction from God. It's in His word. If they decide not to repent from their sin, or even if they do repent but don't want to return to a particular church out of embarrassment or whatever, that's on them. As Christians, we merely perform the duty God requires us to perform. Yes, we do it with the hope of restoration and we do it in love. However, the situation is ultimately between God and the sinner. We can't take the credit for any positive result and, if we do things scripturally, we can't take any blame for any negative result.