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BadDog
Jun 17th 2010, 02:01 AM
Why do you hold to OSAS or NOSAS? This is a discussion-only thread, because I am trying to do something a little different for the "eternal security" issue.


I think that those who old to NOSAS don't really understand WHY OSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that those who old to OSAS don't really understand WHY NOSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of NOSAS, and NOSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about NOSAS believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of OSAS, and OSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about OSAS believe the way they do.


So I would like people to share WHY they hold to OSAS or NOSAS. I don't want us to support our position at all. I just want us to have an opportunity to share WHY we believe the way we do. Let me give an example. I hold to OSAS. I do so mainly because I think NOSAS does damage to the character of God. I also am concerned about how the gospel is distorted IMO from grace to works. So there are some versions of NOSAS for which I have much more tolerance, such as those who say that we can choose to stop following the Lord or we may stop believing. You may know some who have apparently done one or the other.

Now, let's not just say, "Because the Bible teaches NOSAS or OSAS." You see, we all have a basic systematic theology, and our position with OSAS/NOSAS comes from that.

May I also suggest that in the Title-bar that we write either OSAS or NOSAS? Because of the nature of this discussion-oriented thread, I am going to stop following this thread after about a week. Otherwise, we'll gravitate toward debating, and that's not the purpose of this thread. I am hoping that we will each take the time to carefully read the comments of others on both sides of this issue. Perhaps we'll understand the other side, as well as our own side, better. :P

Thx,

BD

Slug1
Jun 17th 2010, 02:40 AM
I hold to NOSAS because we are constantly warned throughout the NT about enduring to the end, overcoming, about falling away, being taken away, being cut down, being burned up, being withered, about fruit production, that faith can be dead, about roots among stony places, about roots in the thorns, repent, repent, repent, repent, repent... If it was OSAS, then there would be no need for all this warning once a relationship with Christ is begun.

BadDog
Jun 17th 2010, 02:55 AM
Thx slug1. I suppose that's similar to why I have an issue with the Reformed theology position of election with no opportunity for free will (I hold to both). Why so many appeals to respond to the gospel otherwise?

Thx,

BD

losthorizon
Jun 17th 2010, 03:03 AM
I hold to NOSAS because we are constantly warned throughout the NT about enduring to the end, overcoming, about falling away, being taken away, being cut down, being burned up, being withered, about fruit production, that faith can be dead, about roots among stony places, about roots in the thorns, repent, repent, repent, repent, repent... If it was OSAS, then there would be no need for all this warning once a relationship with Christ is begun.
It doesn't get any clearer than this - thanks brother.

Slug1
Jun 17th 2010, 03:20 AM
It doesn't get any clearer than this - thanks brother.All in one breath also ;) :lol:

GitRDunn
Jun 17th 2010, 03:34 AM
I see many people use the abbreviations OSAS and NOSAS, but could someone explain what those acronymns actually stand for? I'm not talking what each side believes, just the literal words they stand for.

-SEEKING-
Jun 17th 2010, 03:36 AM
Once Saved Always Saved, and I guess Not Once Saved Always Saved.

crossnote
Jun 17th 2010, 04:27 AM
It boils down to..
1. Are we saved by our faith as Slug1 illustrated
or
2. Are we saved by God's grace as the Reformers stated 'We are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ alone"

Point one makes faith the determining factor;
Point two God's grace.

To remove all boasting I opt for two.
I prefer to call it OTSAS (Once Truly Saved Always Saved).

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 17th 2010, 04:41 AM
It boils down to..
1. Are we saved by our faith as Slug1 illustrated
or
2. Are we saved by God's grace as the Reformers stated 'We are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ alone"

Point one makes faith the determining factor;
Point two God's grace.

To remove all boasting I opt for two.
I prefer to call it OTSAS (Once Truly Saved Always Saved).

So you must believe that there would be a OFSNAS (Once Falsely Saved Not Always Saved) scenario as well?

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 17th 2010, 04:44 AM
I hold to NOSAS because we are constantly warned throughout the NT about enduring to the end, overcoming, about falling away, being taken away, being cut down, being burned up, being withered, about fruit production, that faith can be dead, about roots among stony places, about roots in the thorns, repent, repent, repent, repent, repent... If it was OSAS, then there would be no need for all this warning once a relationship with Christ is begun.

Agreed!!! Wouldn't need much more than Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John if the other were the case. Wasted words on the page for the rest. I know it's crude but it's true.

Slug1
Jun 17th 2010, 11:31 AM
I prefer to call it OTSAS (Once Truly Saved Always Saved).Romans 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The scripture doesn't say, the "true" children of God.

Yet we are still warned... look at all the scriptures about those who are warned. The endurance and overcoming, faith is dead warnings aren't for those who are lost or for those who are false... the warnings are for those "in Christ".

The Bible never addresses those who are "Truly Saved." You either are or aren't and all these specific warnings are for those who are "saved"... to hold on, endure and overcome to the very end of physical life. If you are not saved... the Bible leads those seeking to learn about and meet God.

Of course those not saved have their own specific warnings... but all other warnings are for those who are saved... there is not a "truly saved" Christian and for them, there will be no warnings except maybe to be patient for death of the physical body... common... there is no such concept as the "truly" saved Christian. You either are saved or you are not.

There are false Christians and the warnings are for "saved" Christians to beware and that we'll know them by their fruit, to test the spirits and we have access to the Gft of Discernment to help ID what is false (of satan). Those who are false fall in with all the warnings for the lost even though they don't know this due to the decipt upon them... sad.

No where in the Bible will you find scripture addressing those who are "truly saved", compared to those who are "saved" compared to those who are "not saved".

:rolleyes: Already, you tossed in the classic "not really saved" OSAS Card... no matter how disquised. Sorry... take the card back, it don't work. It's about as effective as the "not really pregnant" card. :P

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 17th 2010, 11:47 AM
For me the point is neither OSAS or NOSAS, the point is are you saved and why you say you are saved? If one declares it is all God’s work, as I see what all of scriptures say, then all the warnings towards watching, working, enduring are also God breathed and guided by God to walking in faith. For a man’s salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and because of God least any man should boast.

If the focal point is towards the scriptures that points to man’s activity, then man being imperfect, can make decisions based on one thing one day another thing the next, so there is always the chance of uncertainty or even false assurance of being faithful enough, obedient enough, good enough, and the judgment becomes self-evident and not God focused.

So to all of scripture, whereas the sum of the word is truth, when we read that nothing can separate us from the Love of God --- with 'work out your salvation in fear and trembling…' compared together, the antimony melts away when we see that the Bible is both an open and closed book, that the Gospel is declared wide open and the Bible is also written only for those who believe.

So the core question is, “am I one who believes and then why and how do I know that I am a real Believer and Christ lives within me and I in Him?” So God's sheep are God's sheep... so ' am I one within His flock?'

CaptainM
Jun 17th 2010, 01:26 PM
You all are funny!


So you must believe that there would be a OFSNAS (Once Falsely Saved Not Always Saved) scenario as well?

How about WOYSWFAT? Work Out Your Salvation With Fear And Trembling! Whatcha got to say to that? :LAUGHING:

Slug1
Jun 17th 2010, 01:29 PM
You all are funny!



How about WOYSWFAT? Work Out Your Salvation With Fear And Trembling! Whatcha got to say to that? :LAUGHING:Oh man... I forgot that one in my first reply...

Must be worked out...

HisLeast
Jun 17th 2010, 02:19 PM
Prior to a few months ago, I found the OSAS/NOSAS dialog to be a red herring. From my perspective one needed to assume knowledge of someone's salvation state in life AND after death in order to support either system of thought. Since this information isn't available to us, it seemed moot to me. At best it couldn't be verified, and at worst the two systems were saying the exact same thing but with different language.

Fast forward a few months and I'm leaning towards NOSAS. This has come from simple observation of my own life. There were times when I was both certain and concrete on what I believed. Today, after realizing none of it makes sense, and how hopeless the search for answers is, there is no more conviction nor certainty. If I can go from conviction to contempt in one year, then certainly anyone else could.

To that extent, NOSAS must be true if we assume that I have lost faith. Of course that I'm damned upon death, which requires the assumption of information we don't have. And gosh darn it, now we're back to where we started from!

thedee
Jun 17th 2010, 02:38 PM
I hold to NOSAS because we are constantly warned throughout the NT about enduring to the end, overcoming, about falling away, being taken away, being cut down, being burned up, being withered, about fruit production, that faith can be dead, about roots among stony places, about roots in the thorns, repent, repent, repent, repent, repent... If it was OSAS, then there would be no need for all this warning once a relationship with Christ is begun.

"about fruit production"

So now it is faith plus works that saves us?

Slug1
Jun 17th 2010, 02:39 PM
"about fruit production"

So now it is faith plus works that saves us?Those on the vine who don't produce, are taken away... NOSAS. Clear as day as just one of the warnings that those who are saved are faced with.

Saved to be first put on the vine, yet taken away, they wither and are burned... NOSAS.

Firstfruits
Jun 17th 2010, 02:57 PM
Why do you hold to OSAS or NOSAS? This is a discussion-only thread, because I am trying to do something a little different for the "eternal security" issue.


I think that those who old to NOSAS don't really understand WHY OSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that those who old to OSAS don't really understand WHY NOSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of NOSAS, and NOSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about NOSAS believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of OSAS, and OSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about OSAS believe the way they do.

So I would like people to share WHY they hold to OSAS or NOSAS. I don't want us to support our position at all. I just want us to have an opportunity to share WHY we believe the way we do. Let me give an example. I hold to OSAS. I do so mainly because I think NOSAS does damage to the character of God. I also am concerned about how the gospel is distorted IMO from grace to works. So there are some versions of NOSAS for which I have much more tolerance, such as those who say that we can choose to stop following the Lord or we may stop believing. You may know some who have apparently done one or the other.

Now, let's not just say, "Because the Bible teaches NOSAS or OSAS." You see, we all have a basic systematic theology, and our position with OSAS/NOSAS comes from that.

May I also suggest that in the Title-bar that we write either OSAS or NOSAS? Because of the nature of this discussion-oriented thread, I am going to stop following this thread after about a week. Otherwise, we'll gravitate toward debating, and that's not the purpose of this thread. I am hoping that we will each take the time to carefully read the comments of others on both sides of this issue. Perhaps we'll understand the other side, as well as our own side, better. :P

Thx,

BD

Why do we have a difference between believers? We either believe or we do not believe and do the the will of God.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

thedee
Jun 17th 2010, 02:58 PM
Those on the vine who don't produce, are taken away... NOSAS. Clear as day as just one of the warnings that those who are saved are faced with.

Saved to be first put on the vine, yet taken away, they wither and are burned... NOSAS.

Are you sure you are not getting fruits/works and salvation mixed up? If we have no works we have no rewards.

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." - Mat 7:19
"If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." - 1 Cor 3:15

Slug, your gospel is faith + works. The gospel the bible teaches is faith alone.

Slug1
Jun 17th 2010, 03:06 PM
Are you sure you are not getting fruits/works and salvation mixed up? If we have no works we have no rewards.

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." - Mat 7:19
"If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." - 1 Cor 3:15

Slug, your gospel is faith + works. The gospel the bible teaches is faith alone.No... Jesus spoke clear and He even backs it with parables concerning this one warning about being taken away. The fruit isn't taken away and burned (since there isn't any to burn anyway), the branch (the one who was saved to be a branch) is taken away and burned... Jesus was very clear. There is no disputing His Words in that scripture.

Also, that is only one warning... there are many more.

Even your scripture of Mt7:19... the fruit isn't taken off the tree and burned, the whole tree is... this scripture is about false prophets... ones who are not saved anyway. No application to this topic.

1 Cor 3:15... is about reward concerning those who endure and overcome and remain saved. Those who "make it" till the end will be evaluated for their reward.

thedee
Jun 17th 2010, 03:08 PM
No... Jesus spoke clear and He even backs it with parables concerning this one warning about being taken away. The fruit isn't taken away and burned (since there isn't any to burn anyway), the branch is taken away and burned... Jesus was very clear. There is no disputing His Words in that scripture.

Also, that is only one warning... there are many more.

Didn't you read 1 Cor 3?

"If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." - 1 Cor 3:15

Our self righteousness will not save us.

Slug1
Jun 17th 2010, 03:16 PM
Didn't you read 1 Cor 3?

"If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." - 1 Cor 3:15

Our self righteousness will not save us.I made an edit to my original post.

thedee
Jun 17th 2010, 03:19 PM
I made an edit to my original post.

Being you don't want to debate on this post because of your original post I won't continue on in this one. The point is Slug.... how many times can some one be "born again"?

TrustingFollower
Jun 17th 2010, 03:20 PM
OK guy's lets get this thread back on track to the wishes of the OP and not turn this into a debate thread. Debating the doctrines can be done in another thread of it's own.

Athanasius
Jun 17th 2010, 03:33 PM
Without supporting my position, I adhere to NOSAS (though I believe in election, and in free will, and that there is no conflict between them) mainly because of the way those who believe in OSAS conduct themselves. I don't mean anything negative by this, only that there appears to be a disconnect between Reformed theology and reformed living. And I would also have to agree with Slug in post #2.

Dani H
Jun 17th 2010, 03:52 PM
I'm personally torn on the matter. Which is why I don't participate in OSAS/NSOAS debates.

On one hand you have God's promises:

I am with you always, to the end of the age. I will never leave you nor forsake you. Even the Spirit bears witness with us that we are children of God. We have been adopted. We were once afar off and separated from God and now He has brought us near because we've confessed our sins and entered into a relationship with Jesus and accepted His sacrifice so we don't have to butcher animals every time we sin but can go straight to God and receive direct forgiveness because the Lamb of God was slain once and won't be slain again.

I get that part.

Then I see warnings to make our calling and election sure. To check ourselves to see if we're in the faith. To not give up and to move forward and to continuously seek the Lord, to stay the path, to run the race, to hold fast.

I also see Jesus' admonition in Revelation to the churches. You've left your first love. Come back, repent, do your first works over again (by that I assume He means baptism or somesuch, whatever it is new believers do). Repentance is a strong overlying theme, as is confession of sin.

My personal take is this: If we really do the things that the Bible tells us to do, there will never be a doubt as to our salvation and our standing before the Lord. When we begin to doubt, God has made ways for us to correct that and deliver us from double-mindedness and waivering. God wants to give us assurance, but if we don't take Him up on the offer, then that's on us, not Him, and it's our own fault if we don't seek Him every day and cement ourselves in colaboration with His Spirit.

I don't understand for the life of me why anybody would chance anything with something this important? I've walked with Jesus for 18 years this month. My faith has been shaken to its very core. God has pruned and disciplined and refined and confronted because there were some things I believed that simply weren't true.

I remember one time I was in church, and God confronted me about the fact that somewhere, in the back of my head, I had thought I didn't really need Jesus to make it into the Kingdom. I surely appreciated what He did for me, but somewhere back there part of me still thought I woulda probably made it on my own. And I had to repent for that. That was after I was born again. And it has been many of those things that God has confronted me with over the years. Not to find fault but to give me a sure foundation and to teach me that He is on my side and that I can trust His faithfulness towards me even when parts of me aren't always so faithful towards Him.

It is those "in the back of our heads and nooks and crannies of our hearts" thoughts that God is calling us to settle with Him, because they do matter. They undermine things. They are thought processes within us that go against truth and what's clearly stated in Scripture. If we leave them unchecked and don't respond to God's testing of them, then they will leave us in the dark on matters where God desires to bring light.

I also remember some years back where I told God "You know, I really love You." And He said "I know you love me. I wanted you to know that I know." I broke down crying because Him saying that taught me that He was seeing my heart and my love for Him and acknowledging it and that it mattered to Him as much as it mattered to me. He's my Abba, you know? My Father, my Daddy, my everything. I don't know who I am without Him, nor do I care to know. I am His and He is mine. And I rest in that, every day, with full assurance. Let my Abba give you that full assurance that you belong to Him also, every day, for the rest of your life. He wants to. I know it.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 17th 2010, 03:58 PM
You all are funny!



How about WOYSWFAT? Work Out Your Salvation With Fear And Trembling! Whatcha got to say to that? :LAUGHING:
Preach it bro!!!!!

notuptome
Jun 17th 2010, 04:22 PM
No big suprize here I'm in the OSAS camp. Jesus drew me to His breast and comforted me there. Nothing can wrench me from His loving arms and nothing can draw me away.

You see what you see based on how you see Jesus. The Jesus I know cannot be adequately described in the limits of the finite mind. The heart swells to learn of even a tiny amount of His grace. I cannot comprehend how anyone could impune the fidelity of Christ. If grace is sufficient to save it must be sufficient to preserve throughout eternity.

I know of no more certain place to set my trust than on Jesus and His ability to save and keep those who trust in Him. I'm for the everlasting felicity of the redeemed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Joey Porter
Jun 17th 2010, 04:52 PM
Why do you hold to OSAS or NOSAS? This is a discussion-only thread, because I am trying to do something a little different for the "eternal security" issue.


Thx,

BD

Having been tossed back and forth and arguing vehemently on both sides of this debate at one time or another, I have a unique perspective of being able to understand BOTH sides. It was finally after bouncing back and forth and feeling foolish for being convinced I was right while arguing against the side for which I had previously been a member of while being convinced I was right then, that I began a deeper study into the issue, and I can now say with certainty that I don't agree with EITHER osas or nosas in the broadest sense that they are debated.

I say this because I believe that the very foundation of both views, which is the same built upon by both, is not quite right. Hence, neither of the two beliefs that sprout from that foundation can be right.

However, as I said, there obviously plenty of scriptural support for either view and I have been on both sides of it.

Having said all that, there most certainly is a TON of scripture that warns of possible future punishment for believers at the judgment. Scripture that either must be contorted to mean something other than what it quite obviously implies, or just flat out ignored.

RogerW
Jun 17th 2010, 06:42 PM
Why do you hold to OSAS or NOSAS? This is a discussion-only thread, because I am trying to do something a little different for the "eternal security" issue.


I think that those who old to NOSAS don't really understand WHY OSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that those who old to OSAS don't really understand WHY NOSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of NOSAS, and NOSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about NOSAS believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of OSAS, and OSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about OSAS believe the way they do.


So I would like people to share WHY they hold to OSAS or NOSAS. I don't want us to support our position at all. I just want us to have an opportunity to share WHY we believe the way we do. Let me give an example. I hold to OSAS. I do so mainly because I think NOSAS does damage to the character of God. I also am concerned about how the gospel is distorted IMO from grace to works. So there are some versions of NOSAS for which I have much more tolerance, such as those who say that we can choose to stop following the Lord or we may stop believing. You may know some who have apparently done one or the other.

Now, let's not just say, "Because the Bible teaches NOSAS or OSAS." You see, we all have a basic systematic theology, and our position with OSAS/NOSAS comes from that.

May I also suggest that in the Title-bar that we write either OSAS or NOSAS? Because of the nature of this discussion-oriented thread, I am going to stop following this thread after about a week. Otherwise, we'll gravitate toward debating, and that's not the purpose of this thread. I am hoping that we will each take the time to carefully read the comments of others on both sides of this issue. Perhaps we'll understand the other side, as well as our own side, better. :P

Thx,

BD

Greetings BD,

I am one of those strange fellows who dislikes OSAS because to me it implies no responsibilty on the part of the believer. I prefer perserverance of the saints when speaking of eternal security. Why? Because I not only find comfort and peace from the Scriptures, but also in life. God has given me blessed assurance that even though I may stumble and fall again and again while living in this wretched body of death, He will never let me so utterly fall that I have lost my salvation. I have this security in Christ because I know my salvation was/is not dependent upon what I do or don't do, but according to His grace He has saved, is saving, and will save me.

I agree there are abundant warnings in Scripture to obey, keep the faith, remain steadfast, do this & don't do that, but I don't see these warnings as reasons we may fail and fall away from Christ. I view these warnings as Christ speaking to His covenant people in the same way God spoke to the old covenant nation. These seemingly conditional statements are calling people who already know Christ to obedience. Just as God spoke to the nation, telling them 'if' they love Him, as they claim to love Him, then put away all sin, and turn away from every idol, keep yourself pure and undefiled by iniquity...so too, Christ, through His Word and Spirit warns new covenant believers in the same manner. If we say we love Christ, then we WILL live our lives in accordance to His Word. But we won't be made perfect while clothed in natural bodies of death, and we will fall, but not so completely that our salvation is lost. Why am I so confident of this? Because I have His faithful Word of promise that salvation is of the Lord...it is not by my knowledge, it is not by my good deeds/works, and it is not by my faith...but totally and completely by grace alone!

Many Blessings,
RW

CFJ
Jun 17th 2010, 07:07 PM
... mainly, because I cannot believe in cheap grace...


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:8 KJV)

TrustingFollower
Jun 17th 2010, 07:09 PM
Folks, the OP specifically asked to not engage in debate so please abide by the wishes of the thread starter in this thread. Some posts that are inciting debate after my last warning have been deleted and the mods will delete other posts if folk go down the debate road in this thread. So again please read the OP and abide by the wishes of the thread starter and engage in civil discussion on the topic in the manor in which this discussion was started. If you want to get into a debate on the topic then start a debate thread on the subject.

Thank You,
TF

BadDog
Jun 17th 2010, 08:08 PM
FF,

Huh? I think you need to go back and read what I posted again. I am referring to some who hold to NOSAS, for example. There are a wide range of NOSAS views. Similarly, there are a wide range of OSAS viewpoints. All NOSAS and all OSAS are not the same. I am simply saying that you are NOSAS, and you probably do not really understand the NOSAS position of others in this forum who are NOSAS. I think we can all learn from one another. I am not talking about believing about Christ, or the gospel!! I am talking about various OSAS or NOSAS beliefs.

BD

BadDog
Jun 17th 2010, 08:15 PM
Are you sure you are not getting fruits/works and salvation mixed up? If we have no works we have no rewards.

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." - Mat 7:19
"If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." - 1 Cor 3:15

Slug, your gospel is faith + works. The gospel the bible teaches is faith alone.thedee,

This is a discussion thread. The purpose of this thread is not so much to criticize another's position on OSAS/NOSAS, but to explain why we ourselves hold to OSAS, or NOSAS. We can ask questions to better understand the position of someone else. Of course, it will be difficult not to find the kinks in someone else's armor, and that will happen to a degree.

So, could you share with us why you hold to OSAS? I am not asking you to defend OSAS, but to tell us the underlining reason(s) for why you hold to OSAS.

For example, I said that I hold to OSAS because IMO NOSAS doesn't do justice to God's character. I also am concerned with how the gospel is affected by a NOSAS position.

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Jun 17th 2010, 08:29 PM
Having been tossed back and forth and arguing vehemently on both sides of this debate at one time or another, I have a unique perspective of being able to understand BOTH sides. It was finally after bouncing back and forth and feeling foolish for being convinced I was right while arguing against the side for which I had previously been a member of while being convinced I was right then, that I began a deeper study into the issue, and I can now say with certainty that I don't agree with EITHER osas or nosas in the broadest sense that they are debated.

I say this because I believe that the very foundation of both views, which is the same built upon by both, is not quite right. Hence, neither of the two beliefs that sprout from that foundation can be right.

However, as I said, there obviously plenty of scriptural support for either view and I have been on both sides of it.

Having said all that, there most certainly is a TON of scripture that warns of possible future punishment for believers at the judgment. Scripture that either must be contorted to mean something other than what it quite obviously implies, or just flat out ignored.
Thx Joey. I imagine some are going to be wondering how it is possible that neither can be correct. If OSAS is not correct, then by definition, it would seem that NOSAS must be.

Now, regarding the judgment thoughts, how about a scripture such as John 5:24?

John 5:22-24 The Father, in fact, judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, so that all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

"I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has crossed over from death into life.[/U]

What about texts such as this one that say that a believer will not come into judgment? Appreciate your thoughts on this, and if you can share with us what motivates you regarding the OSAS/NOSAS issue. But appreciate your thoughts. I think that probably others here have vacillated from one position to the other. Perhaps some others might like to share along that line.

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Jun 17th 2010, 08:31 PM
Roger,

I'm just using the common expressions in threads here... OSAS. I personally prefer "the preservation of the saints" as the focus is on what God has done rather than on us.

Nice comments.

BD

Joey Porter
Jun 17th 2010, 09:10 PM
Thx Joey. I imagine some are going to be wondering how it is possible that neither can be correct. If OSAS is not correct, then by definition, it would seem that NOSAS must be.

Now, regarding the judgment thoughts, how about a scripture such as John 5:24?

John 5:22-24 The Father, in fact, judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, so that all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

"I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has crossed over from death into life.[/U]

What about texts such as this one that say that a believer will not come into judgment? Appreciate your thoughts on this, and if you can share with us what motivates you regarding the OSAS/NOSAS issue. But appreciate your thoughts. I think that probably others here have vacillated from one position to the other. Perhaps some others might like to share along that line.

Thx,

BD

Well, we would have to try to find a way to reconcile other passages with that one; passages that seem to show that believers will be judged according to their works, or fruits, etc.

I don't have much time at the moment, maybe later or tomorrow I can post some of the other passages that I had posted earlier, but unfortunately the post got deleted among the others in the debate elimination sweep.

I believe one of them was from 1 Corinthians where Paul talked about every man's works being tried with fire, and some being saved only THROUGH the fire. Basically my point is that not necessarily every time we see the term "fire" used (such as in John where He talks about branches that don't remain in Him being thrown into the fire) should we automatically assume it's referring to eternal burning in the pits of hell.

Zechariah mentions a fire that will purify and refine God's people. Again, sorry that I don't have the time to look up exact verses right now, but I will do so later or tomorrow.

I guess I would tend to lean more toward "NOSAS" although I have major disagreements with both sides, as perhaps others do.

John146
Jun 17th 2010, 09:23 PM
It boils down to..
1. Are we saved by our faith as Slug1 illustrated
or
2. Are we saved by God's grace as the Reformers stated 'We are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ alone"

Point one makes faith the determining factor;
Point two God's grace.

To remove all boasting I opt for two.
I prefer to call it OTSAS (Once Truly Saved Always Saved).Why does it have to be one or the other? It's both. Scripture only refers to man being able to boast about works if salvation was by works and says nothing about man being able to boast about faith.

Romans 3
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Can you see how works are differentiated from faith and that salvation is not of works, otherwise man could boast but it says nothing about man being able to boast over believing in Jesus?

BadDog
Jun 17th 2010, 09:57 PM
Well, we would have to try to find a way to reconcile other passages with that one; passages that seem to show that believers will be judged according to their works, or fruits, etc.

I don't have much time at the moment, maybe later or tomorrow I can post some of the other passages that I had posted earlier, but unfortunately the post got deleted among the others in the debate elimination sweep.

I believe one of them was from 1 Corinthians where Paul talked about every man's works being tried with fire, and some being saved only THROUGH the fire. Basically my point is that not necessarily every time we see the term "fire" used (such as in John where He talks about branches that don't remain in Him being thrown into the fire) should we automatically assume it's referring to eternal burning in the pits of hell.

BD: Amen! I do not know how many times I have said so on this forum. Some hold that the judging of those works of believers is not to determine their eternal destiny, but for rewards. (See 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.)

I just wanted to give you something to think about. You do not need to defend your position here. I was just curious how you see it.



Zechariah mentions a fire that will purify and refine God's people. Again, sorry that I don't have the time to look up exact verses right now, but I will do so later or tomorrow.

I guess I would tend to lean more toward "NOSAS" although I have major disagreements with both sides, as perhaps others do.

Thx.

BD

losthorizon
Jun 17th 2010, 10:13 PM
For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: Hebrews 6:4-7 (ASV)I reject the the non-biblical notion of OSAS because it promotes the error that one may continue in a life of sin with the confidence that he remains "heavenward-bound" regardless of that life of sin. This notion of "easy believism" is soundly defeated by the universal truth taught in the bible – the truth that IF a righteous man (a Christian) turns from his righteousness through his own evil desire, commits sin and refuses to repent of that sin, he will die a sinner; because of the sin he has committed via his evil heart of unbelief he has departed from the living God - falling from grace he will die separated from God. This universal truth renders OSAS dead of arrival.
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)

If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)

...but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

Kingsdaughter
Jun 17th 2010, 11:26 PM
It is by grace that we are saved, through faith in Jesus Christ, it is a gift from God. We are not saved by our works, and our works don't keep us saved, we are kept by the power of God. Any righteous deeds on my part are just an outward expression of my faith in Him and what the Holy Spirit is doing in and through me.

So I would say OSAS.

Butch5
Jun 18th 2010, 01:00 AM
Why do you hold to OSAS or NOSAS? This is a discussion-only thread, because I am trying to do something a little different for the "eternal security" issue.


I think that those who old to NOSAS don't really understand WHY OSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that those who old to OSAS don't really understand WHY NOSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of NOSAS, and NOSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about NOSAS believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of OSAS, and OSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about OSAS believe the way they do.
So I would like people to share WHY they hold to OSAS or NOSAS. I don't want us to support our position at all. I just want us to have an opportunity to share WHY we believe the way we do. Let me give an example. I hold to OSAS. I do so mainly because I think NOSAS does damage to the character of God. I also am concerned about how the gospel is distorted IMO from grace to works. So there are some versions of NOSAS for which I have much more tolerance, such as those who say that we can choose to stop following the Lord or we may stop believing. You may know some who have apparently done one or the other.

Now, let's not just say, "Because the Bible teaches NOSAS or OSAS." You see, we all have a basic systematic theology, and our position with OSAS/NOSAS comes from that.

May I also suggest that in the Title-bar that we write either OSAS or NOSAS? Because of the nature of this discussion-oriented thread, I am going to stop following this thread after about a week. Otherwise, we'll gravitate toward debating, and that's not the purpose of this thread. I am hoping that we will each take the time to carefully read the comments of others on both sides of this issue. Perhaps we'll understand the other side, as well as our own side, better. :P

Thx,

BD

I agree with what Slug1 said. It seems rather simple to me. I think if Jesus warned his chosen 12 apostles, telling them that they could wind up missing eternal life, and if Paul said that he himself could be cast aside, it seems that anyone can.

Christians often quote the passage, God is the same today, tomorrow, and forever. He never changes. However, it seems to me that the OSAS doctrine completely denies this Scripture. In the OT the only ones of God's chosen people who were saved are those who had faith and obeyed, yet OSAS seems to leave off the "Obeyed" part. Does God change?

Joey Porter
Jun 18th 2010, 01:53 PM
BD: Amen! I do not know how many times I have said so on this forum. Some hold that the judging of those works of believers is not to determine their eternal destiny, but for rewards. (See 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.)

I just wanted to give you something to think about. You do not need to defend your position here. I was just curious how you see it.




Thx.

BD

The question is, what is the "reward" that some will receive, while some or many will miss? I think the scriptures leave little doubt as to the general idea of what it will be. Almost every time that future rewards are spoken of, they are always associated with having authority and a crown and a right to rule over something or someone.

After all, the term "KING of kings" implies that there will be other kings (small k) reigning and ruling. And to be a king, the scriptures make it clear that it must be earned and deserved, not only by "believing," but also by being fruitful and rigtheous.

1 Corinthians 9
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever [incorruptible per Young's].

James 1
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

1 Peter 5
4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

Revelation 3
11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 2
26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

Revelation 3
21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne

2 Timothy 2
12if we endure, we will also reign with him.

Revelation 5
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Matthew 25
21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'


Luke 19
17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

I have a vastly different view of "the age to come" than the general mainstream OSAS/NOSAS "go to heaven or hell" type of theology.

For instance,

Matthew 25
30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

An OSAS person might say that since the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is used, that automatically means this is talking about a person who was never truly saved and goes to eternal hell.

And a NOSAS person might say this person lost his salvation and goes to hell.

And I have heard some from both sides say that the "outer darkness" isn't hell, but a temporary place of punishment for unfaithful believers. That is the belief I would side with the most, but even then I still wouldn't line up completely with that belief.

I think a lot of the confusion that exists, and the reason this debate has gone on for centuries, is because people don't really have much of an understanding about future judgment, the age to come, Yahweh's plan and purpose for His kingdom, what we are going to be doing in that kingdom, what we have to do to make ourselves ready to be a part of it, etc.

People just tend to look at an absolute, clear cut "heaven or hell" outlook on things and therefore they just have a hard time reconciling all of the different scriptures that seem to contradict each other in this debate.

But really, the scriptures teach something far different and much more complex than the general "heaven or hell" mainstream teaching, which is why it's hard for me to really pick one side of the OSAS/NOSAS debate. However, of the two, I would definitely align more closely with the NOSAS side. That is, if we're not looking at "salvation" as being kept from an eternity of fiery torment, but looking at it as having a position of authority in the age to come, the Kingdom age.

There are just far too many scriptures that speak of only being given the right to rule by suffering, bearing fruit, overcoming, enduring, remaining in Him, finishing the race, perservering under trials, etc.

BadDog
Jun 18th 2010, 04:16 PM
Joey,

What you are describing is what is referred to as the "free grace" position. ("Faith alone in Christ alone" is their motto.) I am Free Grace, and one of the few so on this forum. I pretty much agree with everything you said in your last post. I would add the following Romans 8 text to your scriptures:

Romans 8:16, 17 The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God's children, and if children, also heirs -- heirs of God, and co-heirs with Christ provided that we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

All believers are heirs with God. But we can become joint-heirs (or "co-heirs") with Christ if we suffer with Him. The first-born receives a double share of the inheritance. That is not available to all believers IMO, but to those who are co-heirs with Christ because they suffer with Him.

BD

Joey Porter
Jun 18th 2010, 08:29 PM
Ahh, yes. I knew there were other scriptures like that but I couldn't remember exactly where they were or how they were worded so that I could find them and look them up. Here are a few companion scriptures that also come to mind. They show that Yahshua Himself was an example to us in that if we hope to have a right to reign, we must learn obedience and be made perfect through suffering. (This certainly does not happen with a sinner's prayer, and for many of us may not even happen in a lifetime. But that is definitely what the scriptures teach.)

Hebrews 5
8Although He was a son, He learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him

Hebrews 2
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Philippians 2
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,

Not to get off topic, but really this stuff is all tied together with the OSAS/NOSAS debate and can't really be separated from it.

In spite of what many folks may believe and many pastors may teach, the scriptures show that Yahshua Himself did not inherently possess the right to reign simply by way of the nature of who He is. Only by humbling Himself and being made perfect through suffering did was He given by His Father a name above all names. (The word "therefore" shows us that.)

This does not take away from His divinity; it simply shows that Yahweh's principal of humility before exaltation is a constant principal that applies to even God Himself on the grandest scale. (Think about it - Yahweh has allowed His name to be blasphemed on earth and His creation to be in a state of disarray and death, and has let satan deceive the whole word, before He reveals His glory to man and creates a new heavens and new earth where there will be no more death and all mankind bows and confesses and acknowledges Him. Yahweh has been "humbling" Himself [so to speak] since creation in order to be exalted later.)

The reality is that Yahshua came in the flesh as an example to us of what is necessary in order to be granted a right to be exalted and glorified. He had to first come as Yahshua in a submissive and subserviant role, in a flesh body of death, even death on a cross, before being given the right to return with authority as Emmanuel. So it is with us. We must humble ourselves, carry our cross, "clean the inside of our dish," and ultimately be made fit and ready for the kingdom, if we hope to be glorified. If that does not happen now in the flesh, in this age, then we WILL be humbled (by way of fire - not eternal torment, but a refining fire) in the age to come before we ever have any hope of being glorified.

Regardless of whether or not we were a "Christian" or did many great works in His name or whatever - we will be subserviant to those who truly did perservere and who have been glorified (Revelation 3:9). We will fall at the feet of our exalted brothers, just as Joseph's brothers fell at his feet.

If Yahweh subjects even Himself to that principle of humility before exaltation, we can be sure that no one will escape it.


It's been a few years. I had forgotten about the terminology used amongst the different groups within the debate. When I was seeking out and studying the issue, I remember that not only is there division and disagreement amongst the OSAS/NOSAS camps, but also within the OSAS camp there is a big disagreement between the "Free Grace" and "Lordship Salvation" camps. And different camps within NOSAS as well. And it reminded me of why there are so many denomominations - because human nature is that no matter how much we divide, we find even more ways to divide from there!

So I guess I could be considered close the "free grace" belief system as well. But to be honest, I am so far removed from the beliefs of most of mainstream theological teaching that it's hard to put myself close to any group.

However, there really are bits of truth in all the different sides of this OSAS issue, but the problem as I see it is that everyone starts at the end, or with a preconceived idea of what the puzzle should look like, and then tries to force the pieces to fit together to shape into what they believe the final conclusion should look like, instead of letting the pieces fit together to see the true picture. It really is amazing how we can so easily become indoctrinated to the point that we trick ourselves into seeing a totally different picture than what is truly laid out.

Sorry, I don't intend to ramble but it happens more often than not!

percho
Jun 18th 2010, 09:34 PM
I'm 67 yo and I'm sometimes not sure what we mean by saved. I have not read all of these post but would like to ask a question that may of may not be relative to the OP.
Did Paul ever ask the question, "Do you know that if you died today that you would go to heaven or did he even imply that question"?

BadDog
Jun 18th 2010, 10:28 PM
Thx Joey,

Nice comments. have you ever read a book called, The Reign of the Servant Kings, by Joseph (Jodi) Dillow? It is by far the most comprehensive book ever written on this topic, or on OSAS either, for that matter. The book also has a comprehensive index and he covers virtually every Bible text on the subject. I cannot recommend more highly any other book than this one.

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Jun 18th 2010, 10:30 PM
I'm 67 yo and I'm sometimes not sure what we mean by saved. I have not read all of these post but would like to ask a question that may of may not be relative to the OP.
Did Paul ever ask the question, "Do you know that if you died today that you would go to heaven or did he even imply that question"?
Not exactly like that. What the Jews were looking for, and the early Christian church was almost completely Jewish, was for Christ to come and set up His kingdom. But make no mistake, they did expect Him to return and to be resurrected. The "hope" when that term is used in the NT is always tied into the idea of receiving our resurrected bodies, at the 2nd coming of our Lord.

BD

percho
Jun 19th 2010, 12:44 AM
Not exactly like that. What the Jews were looking for, and the early Christian church was almost completely Jewish, was for Christ to come and set up His kingdom. But make no mistake, they did expect Him to return and to be resurrected. The "hope" when that term is used in the NT is always tied into the idea of receiving our resurrected bodies, at the 2nd coming of our Lord.

BD

I agree and I think that is the only hope the bible teaches to be born from the dead into the kingdom of God or changed which is equated with being saved. When that takes place we will be OSAS.

ProjectPeter
Jun 19th 2010, 01:34 AM
NOSAS..... Because............. best I can give without backing it up and if I start... I won't be able to help it!!!! :D

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 19th 2010, 01:38 AM
NOSAS..... Because............. best I can give without backing it up and if I start... I won't be able to help it!!!! :D

It is very difficult ain't it!!!

ProjectPeter
Jun 19th 2010, 01:39 AM
It is very difficult ain't it!!!Difficult? Nah.... IMPOSSIBLE! :lol:

kay-gee
Jun 19th 2010, 03:06 AM
I am going to say NOSAS. I find The other is a doctrine born of emotion and sentiment, and falling short in Biblical support.

all the best...

threebigrocks
Jun 19th 2010, 03:49 AM
NOSAS. Because I've seen others fall away from a true faith. I prefer eternal security. We are not secure in our eternal destiny until we are judged so. We must always be aware of where our feet fall and if it's along the lines of where they ought to be. It is possible to fall away, to be tempted away from grace. God is constant - it's us that waver.

crossnote
Jun 19th 2010, 05:12 AM
As true regenerate believers we have been placed into Christ and Christ is in us...an eternal indissoluble union. OTSAS (once truly saved always saved) for me.

Slug1
Jun 19th 2010, 05:29 AM
As true regenerate believers we have been placed into Christ and Christ is in us...an eternal indissoluble union. OTSAS (once truly saved always saved) for me.There ya go again... telling us there are saved Christians and then there are those "truly" saved Christians. Just like those pregnant women compared to those truly pregnant women... right?

kay-gee
Jun 19th 2010, 12:18 PM
NOSAS. Because I've seen others fall away from a true faith. I prefer eternal security. We are not secure in our eternal destiny until we are judged so. We must always be aware of where our feet fall and if it's along the lines of where they ought to be. It is possible to fall away, to be tempted away from grace. God is constant - it's us that waver.

Amen

all the best...

kay-gee
Jun 19th 2010, 12:22 PM
There ya go again... telling us there are saved Christians and then there are those "truly" saved Christians. Just like those pregnant women compared to those truly pregnant women... right?

Touche! Slug1. It seems like a new vernacular is being created to defend this doctrine. The "truly" saved. My goodness. The Bible only speaks of the saved and lost.

all the best...

David Taylor
Jun 19th 2010, 12:37 PM
I personally world answer the question with these Scriptures:

Primary
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

Matt 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.


Secondary
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain

Matt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

1 Cor 10:13 God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

David Taylor
Jun 19th 2010, 12:46 PM
Touche! Slug1. It seems like a new vernacular is being created to defend this doctrine. The "truly" saved. My goodness. The Bible only speaks of the saved and lost.

all the best...

There are only the "truly" saved... as opposed to the unsaved, -(some of which might claim to be saved but are not)

threebigrocks
Jun 19th 2010, 03:04 PM
An impossible to resist temptation of the topic to bend toward discussion, and I see the itchy fingers and those about to explode because of the OP's request ;) - remember no debate. Statements as to why you believe what you do only please!

Bandit
Jun 19th 2010, 05:05 PM
I'm NOSAS


An impossible to resist temptation of the topic to bend toward discussion, and I see the itchy fingers and those about to explode because of the OP's request ;) - remember no debate. Statements as to why you believe what you do only please!

Ok, I'll be brief and won't reply to any responses to my post.

I believe NOSAS because I believe it to be biblically accurate, and I believe OSAS to be a very serious doctrinal error - especially when combined with a cheap grace gospel - at which point it becomes down right deadly.

crossnote
Jun 19th 2010, 06:06 PM
Touche! Slug1. It seems like a new vernacular is being created to defend this doctrine. The "truly" saved. My goodness. The Bible only speaks of the saved and lost.

all the best...
Yes, one has to use 'truly' saved because for some 'saved' doesn't seem to be enough.

crossnote
Jun 19th 2010, 06:11 PM
There ya go again... telling us there are saved Christians and then there are those "truly" saved Christians. Just like those pregnant women compared to those truly pregnant women... right?

Yes, the truly saved Christians are the ones whom the Father knows and has sealed as His own. I use 'truly' as compared to those who think they are trusting in Jesus alone but subtly add a list of works to the mix.

Joey Porter
Jun 19th 2010, 07:45 PM
Thx Joey,

Nice comments. have you ever read a book called, The Reign of the Servant Kings, by Joseph (Jodi) Dillow? It is by far the most comprehensive book ever written on this topic, or on OSAS either, for that matter. The book also has a comprehensive index and he covers virtually every Bible text on the subject. I cannot recommend more highly any other book than this one.

Thx,

BD

I remember looking into that back back a few years ago; it looked good, but I never got around to ordering it though. It would be nice if there were more like that, or if more pastors and teachers would seek to look deeper that just the erroneous "heaven or hell" teaching that is mostly popular. The shepherds are responsible for guiding the flock and they're not doing a very good job of equipping people for the kingdom with such lazy and milky teachings! I don't say that to be harsh but really it's true.

Slug1
Jun 19th 2010, 10:06 PM
Yes, the truly saved Christians are the ones whom the Father knows and has sealed as His own. I use 'truly' as compared to those who think they are trusting in Jesus alone but subtly add a list of works to the mix.Saved is Saved my friend... no one on earth is more saved then another... you are either saved or not. I do understand about the falsness of thinking that oneself as saved but, another topic.

If you're saved... you're not "truly" saved... you are just... saved.

thedee
Jun 19th 2010, 10:59 PM
How many times do the scriptures teach that you can be "born again"? That answer is the view I hold.

BadDog
Jun 19th 2010, 11:40 PM
NOSAS..... Because............. best I can give without backing it up and if I start... I won't be able to help it!!!! :D
We're not asking for details of your arguments. We simply want to know what motivates you to hold to NOSAS. Those of us who are OSAS would really like to understand what makes you tick. :P

BD

JLM-223
Jun 19th 2010, 11:50 PM
At first I would say that I'm NOSAS, since I'm reminded of Mark 13:13 that reads:

And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
But I guess it depends on how you define salvation. If it's just praying the sinner's prayer and reverting to your old habits, then were you ever saved to begin with? Not so sure about that! But if we endure to the bitter end, whenever comes our way (i.e. either our death or the second coming of Christ) then yes, our Christian faith is genuine and we will be saved.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

BadDog
Jun 19th 2010, 11:51 PM
Touche! Slug1. It seems like a new vernacular is being created to defend this doctrine. The "truly" saved. My goodness. The Bible only speaks of the saved and lost.

all the best...I understand your point, and it is well taken. But Peter spoke of such things as well...

2 Peter 1:10, 11 Therefore, brothers, make every effort to confirm your calling and election, because if you do these things you will never stumble. For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you.

There's "entering the kingdom" and then there's really entering. :rolleyes:

BD

losthorizon
Jun 20th 2010, 12:01 AM
How many times do the scriptures teach that you can be "born again"? That answer is the view I hold.
I reject OSAS because even those who are born again and are "in Christ" can so sin as to be "severed from Christ". Logic does not favor OSAS, especially the logic taught in Holy Writ.

BadDog
Jun 20th 2010, 12:05 AM
I'm NOSAS

Ok, I'll be brief and won't reply to any responses to my post.

I believe NOSAS because I believe it to be biblically accurate, and I believe OSAS to be a very serious doctrinal error - especially when combined with a cheap grace gospel - at which point it becomes down right deadly.Bandit,

Well, put me down for one package of serious doctrinal error then, and I think I've got enough left over for one very cheap grace gospel, please. :P Just call me "Danger."

I'm being facetious, of course, but you've just described what really motivates me... keeping the gospel "cheap" (free). I don't participate in OSAS debates very often; but I am really motivated by keeping the gospel pure. And I think you've hit on something: the heart of OSAS is a free, pure gospel. That said, what would you guys say the heart of NOSAS is in terms of the gospel?

Thx,

BD

thedee
Jun 20th 2010, 12:41 AM
I reject OSAS because even those who are born again and are "in Christ" can so sin as to be "severed from Christ". Logic does not favor OSAS, especially the logic taught in Holy Writ.

I reject anything that is unbiblical. My statement was "how many times do the scriptures teach that you can be born again". How many times can this happen?

losthorizon
Jun 20th 2010, 12:45 AM
I reject anything that is unbiblical. My statement was "how many times do the scriptures teach that you can be born again". How many times can this happen?
Do you not know the answer? Does the truth of God's word teach that one who is born again can be "severed from Christ"?

Slug1
Jun 20th 2010, 12:45 AM
I understand your point, and it is well taken. But Peter spoke of such things as well...

2 Peter 1:10, 11 Therefore, brothers, make every effort to confirm your calling and election, because if you do these things you will never stumble. For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you.

There's "entering the kingdom" and then there's really entering. :rolleyes:

BDBadDog... when we all stand before Jesus, how many groups of people are before Him? He only has a right hand, on which He has all the sheep. He has a left hand, on which He has all the goats.

So where do those who are "truly" saved... to stand?

If you're talking about some of the sheep will be weighed down with reward more then others, I get it. But concerning salvation, I don't get any of this "truly" saved... opinions.

LookingUp
Jun 20th 2010, 01:11 AM
Why do you hold to OSAS or NOSAS? This is a discussion-only thread, because I am trying to do something a little different for the "eternal security" issue.


I think that those who old to NOSAS don't really understand WHY OSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that those who old to OSAS don't really understand WHY NOSAS adherents believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of NOSAS, and NOSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about NOSAS believe the way they do.
I think that there are several versions of OSAS, and OSAS adherents don't understand why others who believe differently about OSAS believe the way they do.


So I would like people to share WHY they hold to OSAS or NOSAS. I don't want us to support our position at all. I just want us to have an opportunity to share WHY we believe the way we do. Let me give an example. I hold to OSAS. I do so mainly because I think NOSAS does damage to the character of God. I also am concerned about how the gospel is distorted IMO from grace to works. So there are some versions of NOSAS for which I have much more tolerance, such as those who say that we can choose to stop following the Lord or we may stop believing. You may know some who have apparently done one or the other.

Now, let's not just say, "Because the Bible teaches NOSAS or OSAS." You see, we all have a basic systematic theology, and our position with OSAS/NOSAS comes from that.

May I also suggest that in the Title-bar that we write either OSAS or NOSAS? Because of the nature of this discussion-oriented thread, I am going to stop following this thread after about a week. Otherwise, we'll gravitate toward debating, and that's not the purpose of this thread. I am hoping that we will each take the time to carefully read the comments of others on both sides of this issue. Perhaps we'll understand the other side, as well as our own side, better. :P

Thx,

BDNOSAS

I actually believe I have been given a gift by God—free will. I can choose to walk away from Jesus right now and reject Him for the rest of my life if I want to. But I also believe that Jesus will do everything in His power to keep me from rejecting Him, except for overriding my free will by forcing me to love Him. For love to be real, it must be freely given. And once I freely give it, I don’t think that God “locks” me in and overrides my free will from there on out just to make sure He is loved by me. That would just prove how powerful He is, not how deserving of my love He is. Our love for one another is ongoing and freely given to one another by choice.

thedee
Jun 20th 2010, 01:32 AM
Do you not know the answer? Does the truth of God's word teach that one who is born again can be "severed from Christ"?

How many times can a person be born again? If you reject "once 'truly' saved always saved" then how many times can you be born again?

BadDog
Jun 20th 2010, 01:50 AM
BadDog... when we all stand before Jesus, how many groups of people are before Him? He only has a right hand, on which He has all the sheep. He has a left hand, on which He has all the goats.

So where do those who are "truly" saved... to stand?

If you're talking about some of the sheep will be weighed down with reward more then others, I get it. But concerning salvation, I don't get any of this "truly" saved... opinions.Slug1,

Well, of course. But you're talking about a parable here. It is a clearly allegorical account to make ONE point. You have to be very careful about basing theology upon them.

Yes, I am talking about rewards, and I realized your point. I too hate it when people talk about "real" faith, based on misconceived views from James 2. Faith is faith. Either you got it, or you don't. And it always results in eternal life.

But I think the point some are making is that there are many in the church, whom we may assume believe the gospel message, who then you may have seen leave the church. It is a valid question to ask if they ever believed... if they ever were born again. John spoke of such:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.



Not trying to argue for OSAS here, though that could certainly be done. That does appear to be what John is saying, but I don't want this thread going down that path... so I'll remain mum. I just want to show that the concept of a "true" believer is a biblical question to ask. John did.

Hey, we're up to 78 posts... never expected such a thread as this to make it even that far. If you could close the thread down after so many days, I would have done so. I was thinking 7 - 10 days. Again the question is WHY we each hold the beliefs that we hold. What motivates us in that respect?

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Jun 20th 2010, 02:06 AM
NOSAS

I actually believe I have been given a gift by God—free will. I can choose to walk away from Jesus right now and reject Him for the rest of my life if I want to. But I also believe that Jesus will do everything in His power to keep me from rejecting Him, except for overriding my free will by forcing me to love Him. For love to be real, it must be freely given. And once I freely give it, I don’t think that God “locks” me in and overrides my free will from there on out just to make sure He is loved by me. That would just prove how powerful He is, not how deserving of my love He is. Our love for one another is ongoing and freely given to one another by choice.
LookingUp,

Very nice point. I love this. Very good thinking. But it reminds me of another reason I hold to OSAS, similar to what you are sharing here:

Once a person becomes a part of God's family, can he ever stop being God's son? On a human level, my son may reject me and refuse to have anything to do with me. He has a free will. But I will always love him and pray that he comes back to me (and God, if relevant). Now, as a parent, would God do any differently than me?

I might choose to disinherit him. (Not that he will have much to inherit from us!) But he will always be my son-always.

Anyway, that is a key reason I hold to OSAS. That is one way it affects God's character, as I shared earlier. A motivation of God as a parent.

Thx,

BD

losthorizon
Jun 20th 2010, 02:12 AM
How many times can a person be born again? If you reject "once 'truly' saved always saved" then how many times can you be born again?
The new birth puts one “in Christ” and it is a one time event. After conversion, the Christian who continues to “walk in the light as he is in the light” and who continues to confess his sins will continue to enjoy God's grace as his sins are continually cleansed by the blood of Christ.

On the other hand - the righteous man (a true Christian) who turns from his righteousness via his own evil desires and commits sin and refuses to repent of those sins will die in those sins - “severed from Christ”. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers...
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)

If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)

...but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

Do you deny the truth that the one who is born again (in Christ) can fall from grace and be severed from Christ?

BadDog
Jun 20th 2010, 02:26 AM
LH and Thedee,

It has been requested more than once now to try to avoid such debating as is going on here. I know it is hard. But perhaps LH could share what about the "only being born again once" that motivates him to hold to NOSAS. We're not saying to not discuss various people's commentary about what motivates them to hold their position... just not get into debate to prove it one way or the other.

Now perhaps LH has some concerns about what Thedee has said here, but is more concerned about the clear teaching in scripture that we can change how we are living, and, as he thinks, "fall from grace." I think Thedee's point is clear... we can only be born again once. That is a point difficult to ignore.

Thx!

BD

percho
Jun 20th 2010, 02:41 AM
The new birth puts one “in Christ” and it is a one time event. After conversion, the Christian who continues to “walk in the light as he is in the light” and who continues to confess his sins will continue to enjoy God's grace as his sins are continually cleansed by the blood of Christ.

On the other hand - the righteous man (a true Christian) who turns from his righteousness via his own evil desires and commits sin and refuses to repent of those sins will die in those sins - “severed from Christ”. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers...
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)

If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)

...but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

Do you deny the truth that the one who is born again (in Christ) can fall from grace and be severed from Christ?

Which of the first two verses does the third verse apply to?

Romans 8:15,23 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (In light of the following) And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

losthorizon
Jun 20th 2010, 02:49 AM
Which of the first two verses does the third verse apply to?


All three verse apply to the truth that one who is "in Christ" can so sin as to be "severed from Christ".

losthorizon
Jun 20th 2010, 03:00 AM
I think Thedee's point is clear... we can only be born again once. That is a point difficult to ignore.


No one on the thread denies or ignores that the born again event is a one-time event just as I have already pointed out but that fact in no way negates the universal truth taught in both the OT and NT that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things as the wicked man he will surely die in his sins.

The truth remains - one who is in Christ can sin against God in a way that he can be severed from Christ. This universal truth renders OSAS dead on arrival - R.I.P.

BadDog
Jun 20th 2010, 03:06 AM
Thx LH,

Thedee's point is that logically if we can be born again only once, to say that we can be severed from Christ is to then say OLAL ("Once lost always lost"). So one reason why Thedee brings this up is this seems to not be consistent with the texts from Ezekiel you're quoted. I think Thedee is saying, "If not OSAL, then it must be OLAL."

Does OLAL concern you?

Also, you continue to refer to being "severed" from Christ, yet I can only find this expression once in scripture. In Galatians 5:4 it refers to being "severed from Christ" and having"fallen from grace." But there the person who is severed from Christ is the one who thinks that we are saved by works, not by grace. I don't want to debate this here, but perhaps you can explain your thinking on why this "severed from Christ" is such a concern for you when it only appears once, and it is questionable if it applies to the OSAS issue there. Just trying to understand your thinking.

Thx,

BD
(Aside: for those who question this, if Hebrews 6 teaches that one can become unsaved, then it teaches OLAL.)

losthorizon
Jun 20th 2010, 03:26 AM
Thx LH,

Thedee's point is that logically if we can be born again only once, to say that we can be severed from Christ is to then say OLAL ("Once lost always lost"). So one reason why Thedee brings this up is this seems to not be consistent with the texts from Ezekiel you're quoted. I think Thedee is saying, "If not OSAL, then it must be OLAL."

Does OLAL concern you?

Also, you continue to refer to being "severed" from Christ, yet I can only find this expression once in scripture. In Galatians 5:4 it refers to being "severed from Christ" and having"fallen from grace." But there the person who is severed from Christ is the one who thinks that we are saved by works, not by grace. I don't want to debate this here, but perhaps you can explain your thinking on why this "severed from Christ" is such a concern for you when it only appears once, and it is questionable if it applies to the OSAS issue there. Just trying to understand your thinking.


Those who apostatize and willfully fall from grace via “an evil heart” and become severed from Christ risk the consequences that there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries" (Heb. 10:26-27). "Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise" (Heb. 10:35-36).In your theology is it impossible for one who is born again (one who is in Christ) to fall from grace and be severed from Christ. Was Paul simply blowing smoke when he said one "in Christ" could be "severed from Christ" through apostasy?

crossnote
Jun 20th 2010, 03:38 AM
Saved is Saved my friend... no one on earth is more saved then another... you are either saved or not. I do understand about the falsness of thinking that oneself as saved but, another topic.

If you're saved... you're not "truly" saved... you are just... saved.

Yes, but according to your definition of saved, you are not really saved but only conditionally saved. That is why I have to add the modifier 'truly'.

losthorizon
Jun 20th 2010, 03:41 AM
Yes, but according to your definition of saved, you are not really saved but only conditionally saved. That is why I have to add the modifier 'truly'.
Please clarify - what is the difference between "really saved" and "conditionally saved"? Is that like being "really pregnant" as opposed to being "conditionally pregnant"? Scripture please.

Moxie
Jun 20th 2010, 04:25 AM
God doesn't cast His children away. He keeps us in His hand. True believers, individuals who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit are not going to fall away but we can't just live on a wing and a prayer and hope that we are going to heaven one day because we "believe" in Jesus Christ. That is also why the scripture tells us to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, study to show ourselves approved, we need to look at our fruit and examine ourselves. A true believer will do those things. True believers who don't know how will seek Him and will learn. I don't believe our salvation comes and goes. When it's there it is there to stay. If it looks like salvation went away then its quite possible they didn't have it to begin with.

kay-gee
Jun 20th 2010, 04:38 AM
How many times can a person be born again? If you reject "once 'truly' saved always saved" then how many times can you be born again?

Well I guess according to the OSAS folks you can be born again as many times as it takes until "truly" saved.

all the best...

percho
Jun 20th 2010, 04:53 AM
All three verse apply to the truth that one who is "in Christ" can so sin as to be "severed from Christ".

What if Romans 8:15 is in the context of being begotten of God yet a miscarriage could take place where as in Luke 20:36 and Romans 8:23 were in the context of after being born and one can neither sin nor die again? Is this a possibility?

LookingUp
Jun 20th 2010, 05:56 AM
LookingUp,

Very nice point. I love this. Very good thinking. But it reminds me of another reason I hold to OSAS, similar to what you are sharing here:

Once a person becomes a part of God's family, can he ever stop being God's son? On a human level, my son may reject me and refuse to have anything to do with me. He has a free will. But I will always love him and pray that he comes back to me (and God, if relevant). Now, as a parent, would God do any differently than me?

I might choose to disinherit him. (Not that he will have much to inherit from us!) But he will always be my son-always.

Anyway, that is a key reason I hold to OSAS. That is one way it affects God's character, as I shared earlier. A motivation of God as a parent.

Thx,

BDHi BadDog!

I understand what you are saying and there was a time I felt as you do now. But at this point, I have come to believe that we are born as children of God without sin. I believe miscarried babies, infants, children, and those who are mentally unable to mature are all without sin and if they die, are children of God who go to heaven (“for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such a these”). We are born part of God’s family and “stop” being part of His family when we separate ourselves from God through our willful choice to sin against Him. It is at that point I believe we spiritually die. I think the story of the prodigal son teaches this (“this son of mine was dead and has come to life AGAIN” -- ‘born again’). The alive son of his Father chose to walk away and live a life of sin. He later chose to return to his Father who then said my dead son has come to life AGAIN.

And I think Paul teaches it [“I once was alive (at his youth) apart from the law but when the commandment came (old enough to know right from wrong) sin became alive and I died (spiritually died)] and then later Paul was “born AGAIN.”

So, a child who is part of God’s family can stop being God’s son when he chooses to sin and spiritually die. After they become “born again” can they die spiritually a second time? Maybe that’s what the second death is all about (Rev. 21:14)—a second physical death AND a second spiritual death (both of which are permanent).

Slug1
Jun 20th 2010, 01:06 PM
Yes, but according to your definition of saved, you are not really saved but only conditionally saved. That is why I have to add the modifier 'truly'.

Since I don't understand what you are implying here... please explain. Use all the scripture you want and then any parable that support the scripture. We are proviced many of these parables to help us understand the truth of Jesus and the meaning of salvation.

Example... John 15:1-7 and then the parables of the Talents. Those who are expected to produce with what they are given by God, remain on the vine and will produce and be given more. Those on the vine who do nothing with what they are given, cut off and burned or tossed in the outer darkness as the parable terms it. This parable is an example of what John 15 means to show us the meaning of "taken away" off the vine.

ProjectPeter
Jun 20th 2010, 01:26 PM
Yes, but according to your definition of saved, you are not really saved but only conditionally saved. That is why I have to add the modifier 'truly'.

It is conditional as are all covenants in Scripture... until all enemies have been defeated and God is all and all. ;)

losthorizon
Jun 20th 2010, 02:01 PM
What if Romans 8:15 is in the context of being begotten of God yet a miscarriage could take place where as in Luke 20:36 and Romans 8:23 were in the context of after being born and one can neither sin nor die again? Is this a possibility?
A woman who miscarries is no longer pregnant. To be "in Christ" is to be saved - fully and completely - just as for a woman to "be pregnant" means she is fully and completely pregnant. To be "severed from Christ" is to be outside of God's grace and without hope.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. ~ Eph. 1:1-6Every spiritual blessing is given to us "in Christ". If a Christian turns from the faith via an evil heat and rejects the Christ he forfeits every spiritual blessing in Christ. This is black and white - no muddy water in what Paul is teaching.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 20th 2010, 02:10 PM
God doesn't cast His children away. He keeps us in His hand. True believers, individuals who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit are not going to fall away but we can't just live on a wing and a prayer and hope that we are going to heaven one day because we "believe" in Jesus Christ. That is also why the scripture tells us to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, study to show ourselves approved, we need to look at our fruit and examine ourselves. A true believer will do those things. True believers who don't know how will seek Him and will learn. I don't believe our salvation comes and goes. When it's there it is there to stay. If it looks like salvation went away then its quite possible they didn't have it to begin with.

By definition this is OSAS

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 20th 2010, 02:14 PM
For this to be a non-debate it sure has a lot of debate!!!! There's about a 100 posts I would like to comment on but...no debate!

BadDog
Jun 20th 2010, 04:34 PM
For this to be a non-debate it sure has a lot of debate!!!! There's about a 100 posts I would like to comment on but...no debate!
2P2,

:P Yes, this is a very touchy and controversial topic. My goal was to not debate on this thread, but try to learn things about how other OSAS and especially NOSAS folk believe. (From my perspective--for NOSAS folk, the goal is that they would take the time to genuinely understand their OSAS brothers and sisters.) I wanted this to be a thread in which we took the time to slow down and really listen and consider the other side.

I just have gotten so tired of NOSAS believers making grandiose assumptions about how I believe and why that are invariably so far from reality. It's no surprise that people feel so strongly about this, because they really have no clue of what the other side really thinks, and why. So it's probably best to not think of this as a OSAS/NOSAS thread.

I figure that there is always a OSAS thread being debated somewhere. It's been difficult for me not to comment when people bring up Hebrews 6 or 10, or show ignorance regarding how the word salvation is used in the NT, thinking it is always referring to gaining eternal life, when it is far less than 50% of the time used in that context. It's been hard to keep my mouth shut. :D Those Hebrew texts are so misunderstood, and Id' love to lay out my thoughts on them... done that many times here, but this thread is not the one to do that. For example, most of the people from the NOSAS camp in this thread have participated in threads in which I laid out my thoughts on Hebrews 6 and 10, yet I imagine most still have no clue what I said about them. In fact, no one yet has given any arguments, really, regarding what I posted on those texts. They just shared their own thoughts on the matter instead, ignoring my arguments. That's not how we should post here. We've got to gain a better understanding about how the other side believes on eternal security, and why.

Incidentally, I prefer OSAS threads in which a particular text is being considered. The "discussion" just gets too broad otherwise, and everyone just begins taking pot shots and using the shotgun approach without really taking the time to genuinely consider what the other side is saying. That thread you started a while back on 2 Peter 1 was one such focused thread, and it covered a text that isn't considered very often, so though I rarely delve into OSAS threads, I just couldn't let that one go by. :D Good thread. It got me hooked.

Take care,

BD

BadDog
Jun 20th 2010, 04:42 PM
I really want to get a better understanding of the various positions which NOSAS adherents have regarding what would lead to a loss of salvation.

NOSAS: In your opinion, what will lead to a loss of salvation, or perhaps it might be better for you to say what must a Christian do IOT remain saved? Does one have to abandon the faith, rejecting Christ, or can unconfessed sin, an unrepentant attitude, or coming to no longer believe the gospel message lead to losing eternal life?

I'm not posing this question so that the OSAS folks can take pot shots. I want to get an idea of the range of NOSAS positions on this thread.

Thx much,

BD (The 1st person to respond will make the 100th post here. :P )

Bandit
Jun 20th 2010, 04:53 PM
Start another thread, BadDog, and ask this question there; this thread is not for discussion! The OP (which is you) shouldn't have his thread closed because others (which is also you) wouldn't honour the OP's request.

I liked saying that!

Butch5
Jun 20th 2010, 04:55 PM
2P2,

:P Yes, this is a very touchy and controversial topic. My goal was to not debate on this thread, but try to learn things about how other OSAS and especially NOSAS folk believe. (From my perspective--for NOSAS folk, the goal is that they would take the time to genuinely understand their OSAS brothers and sisters.) I wanted this to be a thread in which we took the time to slow down and really listen and consider the other side.

I just have gotten so tired of NOSAS believers making grandiose assumptions about how I believe and why that are invariably so far from reality. It's no surprise that people feel so strongly about this, because they really have no clue of what the other side really thinks, and why. So it's probably best to not think of this as a OSAS/NOSAS thread.

I figure that there is always a OSAS thread being debated somewhere. It's been difficult for me not to comment when people bring up Hebrews 6 or 10, or show ignorance regarding how the word salvation is used in the NT, thinking it is always referring to gaining eternal life, when it is far less than 50% of the time used in that context. It's been hard to keep my mouth shut. :D Those Hebrew texts are so misunderstood, and Id' love to lay out my thoughts on them... done that many times here, but this thread is not the one to do that. For example, most of the people from the NOSAS camp in this thread have participated in threads in which I laid out my thoughts on Hebrews 6 and 10, yet I imagine most still have no clue what I said about them. In fact, no one yet has given any arguments, really, regarding what I posted on those texts. They just shared their own thoughts on the matter instead, ignoring my arguments. That's not how we should post here. We've got to gain a better understanding about how the other side believes on eternal security, and why.

Incidentally, I prefer OSAS threads in which a particular text is being considered. The "discussion" just gets too broad otherwise, and everyone just begins taking pot shots and using the shotgun approach without really taking the time to genuinely consider what the other side is saying. That thread you started a while back on 2 Peter 1 was one such focused thread, and it covered a text that isn't considered very often, so though I rarely delve into OSAS threads, I just couldn't let that one go by. :D Good thread. It got me hooked.

Take care,

BD

BD, are you Primitive Baptist by chance?

Butch5
Jun 20th 2010, 05:03 PM
I really want to get a better understanding of the various positions which NOSAS adherents have regarding what would lead to a loss of salvation.

NOSAS: In your opinion, what will lead to a loss of salvation, or perhaps it might be better for you to say what must a Christian do IOT remain saved? Does one have to abandon the faith, rejecting Christ, or can unconfessed sin, an unrepentant attitude, or coming to no longer believe the gospel message lead to losing eternal life?

I'm not posing this question so that the OSAS folks can take pot shots. I want to get an idea of the range of NOSAS positions on this thread.

Thx much,

BD (The 1st person to respond will make the 100th post here. :P )

I believe that it is a rejection of Christ ultimately that causes a loss or forfeiture of salvation. Having said that, I believe there are things that bring one to this point. For instance, when one continues is sin, their conscience is pricked. If they ignore this conviction it becomes easier to sin the next time, if they continue to ignore the conviction, they begin a process the Scriptures refer to as a hardening of the heart. I believe this process can lead to a point where the individual becomes so hard and so entrenched in the sin that they no longer desire to leave it but choose the sin. Only God knows at what point this person has crossed the line and abandoned Christ, so only God can make that call, however, I do believe that Scripture teaches that this can happen. Then there is the person who openly rejects Christ with no pretense.

LookingUp
Jun 20th 2010, 05:11 PM
2P2,

:P Yes, this is a very touchy and controversial topic. My goal was to not debate on this thread, but try to learn things about how other OSAS and especially NOSAS folk believe. (From my perspective--for NOSAS folk, the goal is that they would take the time to genuinely understand their OSAS brothers and sisters.) I wanted this to be a thread in which we took the time to slow down and really listen and consider the other side.

I just have gotten so tired of NOSAS believers making grandiose assumptions about how I believe and why that are invariably so far from reality. It's no surprise that people feel so strongly about this, because they really have no clue of what the other side really thinks, and why. So it's probably best to not think of this as a OSAS/NOSAS thread.

I figure that there is always a OSAS thread being debated somewhere. It's been difficult for me not to comment when people bring up Hebrews 6 or 10, or show ignorance regarding how the word salvation is used in the NT, thinking it is always referring to gaining eternal life, when it is far less than 50% of the time used in that context. It's been hard to keep my mouth shut. :D Those Hebrew texts are so misunderstood, and Id' love to lay out my thoughts on them... done that many times here, but this thread is not the one to do that. For example, most of the people from the NOSAS camp in this thread have participated in threads in which I laid out my thoughts on Hebrews 6 and 10, yet I imagine most still have no clue what I said about them. In fact, no one yet has given any arguments, really, regarding what I posted on those texts. They just shared their own thoughts on the matter instead, ignoring my arguments. That's not how we should post here. We've got to gain a better understanding about how the other side believes on eternal security, and why.

Incidentally, I prefer OSAS threads in which a particular text is being considered. The "discussion" just gets too broad otherwise, and everyone just begins taking pot shots and using the shotgun approach without really taking the time to genuinely consider what the other side is saying. That thread you started a while back on 2 Peter 1 was one such focused thread, and it covered a text that isn't considered very often, so though I rarely delve into OSAS threads, I just couldn't let that one go by. :D Good thread. It got me hooked.

Take care,

BDWould you mind sending me a PM on your take of Heb. 6 & 10?

Bandit
Jun 20th 2010, 05:19 PM
BD, are you Primitive Baptist by chance?

I'm just plain primitive... but that topic is for another time.

Bandit
Jun 20th 2010, 05:20 PM
Would you mind sending me a PM on your take of Heb. 6 & 10?

I would take the middle of the road interpretation, which means I would discuss Hebrews 8.

Firstfruits
Jun 20th 2010, 05:35 PM
LookingUp,

Very nice point. I love this. Very good thinking. But it reminds me of another reason I hold to OSAS, similar to what you are sharing here:

Once a person becomes a part of God's family, can he ever stop being God's son? On a human level, my son may reject me and refuse to have anything to do with me. He has a free will. But I will always love him and pray that he comes back to me (and God, if relevant). Now, as a parent, would God do any differently than me?

I might choose to disinherit him. (Not that he will have much to inherit from us!) But he will always be my son-always.

Anyway, that is a key reason I hold to OSAS. That is one way it affects God's character, as I shared earlier. A motivation of God as a parent.

Thx,

BD

If we have taken up the cross and because of temptations we put it down, would this not result in Jesus denying us?

Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Firstfruits

threebigrocks
Jun 20th 2010, 05:38 PM
Let me add this to my why.

Israel were, are, God's chosen. Fact. He reached down and led them out of captivity. What did they do, after seeing the very hand of God before their eyes guide them to freedom? They turned away. The Promised Land would not be for them but their descendants who would learn from their disobedience. It was granted to those other than that group that was led out. Who then now are the gentiles who have been grafted in even back then? US, all who were never Jews. If those saved today - given freedom in Christ, be they Jew or gentile, Greek, slave or free - by the same same grace as has always existed from God think they are less fleshy or less prone to error in despite their humaness we fool ourselves.

Too often, we forget to learn from history, so history repeats itself. Scripturally humanity as a whole was destined to do so. We are no more or less fleshy and prone to mess up than the Israelites who were God's chosen just as much as we are today.

This is why I say that God does not change in my first post here. We do. It's not about salvation, it's about remaining secure as long as we keep ourselves submissive under grace. God will not remove it, but He will only reach down by His own hand for so long, just as He did with the Israelites. He will let us walk away until our ears can again hear and our eyes can again see.

LookingUp
Jun 20th 2010, 05:50 PM
I really want to get a better understanding of the various positions which NOSAS adherents have regarding what would lead to a loss of salvation.

NOSAS: In your opinion, what will lead to a loss of salvation, or perhaps it might be better for you to say what must a Christian do IOT remain saved? Does one have to abandon the faith, rejecting Christ, or can unconfessed sin, an unrepentant attitude, or coming to no longer believe the gospel message lead to losing eternal life?

I'm not posing this question so that the OSAS folks can take pot shots. I want to get an idea of the range of NOSAS positions on this thread.

Thx much,

BD (The 1st person to respond will make the 100th post here. :P )Much of what Butch wrote is how I see it. But I would add that it takes willful, conscious effort to live the kind of life that leads you further and further away to ultimately reject Christ (your repentance is insincere or there is none) while all along the Holy Spirit is calling you to true repentance every step of the way. In other words, it takes work—it takes work to consistently reject the prodding of the Spirit (especially in the early stages). I think you have to really “practice” it for it to become part of your lifestyle and who you are. I think Butch is right, the more you “practice” it, the more natural it becomes to you. The problem I have with my own view of NOSAS is this idea that you are “born again” then “die again” then “born again” then “die again.” That doesn’t ring true to me. I think you are “born again” once and the reality of “dying again” after rebirth isn’t “official” until the judgment. In other words, hope to repent remains until the last breath. I think that at the judgment our entire lives will be one big reflection of whether we had faith or not. Whether we accepted Christ or whether we rejected Him. And only God will be able to judge that.

Moxie
Jun 20th 2010, 09:59 PM
By definition this is OSAS

Hi 2 Pete,
This may be--however, what I have found having grown up NOSAS and now within a denomination that is OSAS that most OSAS individuals (who aren't in the Word) feel that can do anything and never lose their salvation. Most don't really understand what it means to examine oneselves or to allow God to work on them. It's the reason I don't choose a side. ;)

crossnote
Jun 20th 2010, 10:40 PM
Please clarify - what is the difference between "really saved" and "conditionally saved"? Is that like being "really pregnant" as opposed to being "conditionally pregnant"? Scripture please.

True, a 'conditional' pregnancy is no pregnancy at all and so those who hold to losing ones salvation (conditional) was (under their definition) no salvation at all.
Scripture on conditional salvation? That is the other's idea, ask them.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 12:07 AM
I'm just plain primitive... but that topic is for another time.

What do you mean plain Primitive?

losthorizon
Jun 21st 2010, 12:09 AM
True, a 'conditional' pregnancy is no pregnancy at all and so those who hold to losing ones salvation (conditional) was (under their definition) no salvation at all.
Scripture on conditional salvation? That is the other's idea, ask them.
But Holy Writ clearly states that one who turns from the faith of Christ has fallen from grace - has become severed from Christ. Only a Christian can be "in Christ" and only a Christian can be "severed from Christ". Hindus, Buddhists, evangelical atheists, etc cannot be severed from Christ as they were never in Christ. You may want to review your notes a bit closer - it's really an easy concept.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 12:13 AM
Hi 2 Pete,
This may be--however, what I have found having grown up NOSAS and now within a denomination that is OSAS that most OSAS individuals (who aren't in the Word) feel that can do anything and never lose their salvation. Most don't really understand what it means to examine oneselves or to allow God to work on them. It's the reason I don't choose a side. ;)

Agreed, this goes along with what I posted to BroRog. The weak believer, a real Christian, may no know how to live for Christ not having been taught.

BadDog
Jun 21st 2010, 12:34 AM
Start another thread, BadDog, and ask this question there; this thread is not for discussion! The OP (which is you) shouldn't have his thread closed because others (which is also you) wouldn't honour the OP's request.

I liked saying that!Bandit,

I think you should go back and read that Op carefully. I made it clear that the purpose of this thread was not to argue (debate) OSAS, but to try to understand one another, and why we believe the way we do. How does post #99 not fit into that scenario?

:confused

BD

BadDog
Jun 21st 2010, 12:35 AM
BD, are you Primitive Baptist by chance?Not a chance! Far, far from it. I am just not conservative enough for them. I'm "free grace."

But I find intriguing their refusal concerning tithing (with which I agree), salaried ministers (also agree), and having a collection. But I think that all Baptist churches make too big a deal about the mode of baptism. I think immersion can be defended as biblical, but do you think our Lord really cares whether we dip em or sprinkle em?

BD

Bandit
Jun 21st 2010, 12:36 AM
I was just afraid of what it could turn into.

BadDog
Jun 21st 2010, 12:38 AM
I believe that it is a rejection of Christ ultimately that causes a loss or forfeiture of salvation. Having said that, I believe there are things that bring one to this point. For instance, when one continues is sin, their conscience is pricked. If they ignore this conviction it becomes easier to sin the next time, if they continue to ignore the conviction, they begin a process the Scriptures refer to as a hardening of the heart. I believe this process can lead to a point where the individual becomes so hard and so entrenched in the sin that they no longer desire to leave it but choose the sin. Only God knows at what point this person has crossed the line and abandoned Christ, so only God can make that call, however, I do believe that Scripture teaches that this can happen. Then there is the person who openly rejects Christ with no pretense.
Thx Butch. I think this may be a common NOSAS view. What do you think?

BD

BadDog
Jun 21st 2010, 12:48 AM
Would you mind sending me a PM on your take of Heb. 6 & 10?LookingUp,

Well, they take probably about 50,000 words to do so. Actually, there is already a post on Hebrews 6 (v6 if they fall away... posts # 128, 129 [introduction] and # 138, 139[meat]), and I just posted about 3 or 4 lengthy posts to describe my position there. Fortunately, Hebrews 10 is not quite as lengthy since IMO if someone simply reads the entire chapter in context, the answer will jump out at them. I've got one question for you to think about regarding Hebrews 10:26... "What does, 'There no longer remains a sacrifice.' mean?" What is the sacrifice? I'll give you a hint, it is clearly NOT the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Why don't you read it, paying close attention to the word "sacrifice" as used in that chapter, starting in vs. 1, and tell us what you think.

I can PM you some thoughts on it later, if you'd like. Who knows, it may even fit into this thread later.

Thx,

BD

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 12:57 AM
Thx Butch. I think this may be a common NOSAS view. What do you think?

BD

I think it may be a general idea, I am sure there are some who have offshoots of this or different things they would consider turning away.

BadDog
Jun 21st 2010, 01:00 AM
I was just afraid of what it could turn into.

Thx. I think things will be fine. I personally just want to know what NOSAS people think about what can cause us to "lose" our salvation.

BD

BadDog
Jun 21st 2010, 01:06 AM
If we have taken up the cross and because of temptations we put it down, would this not result in Jesus denying us?

Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

FirstfruitsFF,

Thx. I see your point. But I'm not going to debate you on this, since the purpose of this thread is simply to share WHY we believe as we do, sans debate. I think it is good for NOSAS to think about this idea of God as our Father.

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Jun 21st 2010, 01:13 AM
Much of what Butch wrote is how I see it. But I would add that it takes willful, conscious effort to live the kind of life that leads you further and further away to ultimately reject Christ (your repentance is insincere or there is none) while all along the Holy Spirit is calling you to true repentance every step of the way. In other words, it takes work—it takes work to consistently reject the prodding of the Spirit (especially in the early stages). I think you have to really “practice” it for it to become part of your lifestyle and who you are. I think Butch is right, the more you “practice” it, the more natural it becomes to you. The problem I have with my own view of NOSAS is this idea that you are “born again” then “die again” then “born again” then “die again.” That doesn’t ring true to me. I think you are “born again” once and the reality of “dying again” after rebirth isn’t “official” until the judgment. In other words, hope to repent remains until the last breath. I think that at the judgment our entire lives will be one big reflection of whether we had faith or not. Whether we accepted Christ or whether we rejected Him. And only God will be able to judge that.
Looking Up,

I appreciate your honesty (bold green). Most people on a thread such as this one are not willing to admit any insecurities or concerns.

Thx,

BD

Slug1
Jun 21st 2010, 01:39 AM
Looking Up,

I appreciate your honesty (bold green). Most people on a thread such as this one are not willing to admit any insecurities or concerns.

Thx,

BDBadDog... who ever said that one "dies" again after being "Born Again"? A Christian, once saved withers, they don't "die" and are in need of being Born Again. If they are repentant, then they will be restored, not Born Again. The Bible is all FULL of scriptures explaining that we will be RESTORED.

To be restored, one must humble themselves before the Lord, lay all their sin out before the Lord and confess to all of it, they express godly sorrow... and in this repentance, are forgiven. God begins the restoration process and works in them.

If a person doesn't do this and "dies" physically before they can do this... well, in all we read in the Bible, they didn't endure, they didn't overcome, they are burned, or tossed in the outer darkness, they gnash their teeth, etc.

BadDog
Jun 21st 2010, 01:45 AM
Slug1,

Thx. Can't respond since we are not debating. I think what Looking Up is saying is that when we become a Christian, it is referred biblically as "born again" or "spiritual birth." Being "restored" would assume that someone had fallen in status, but was not spiritually dead. Anyway, the point for this thread is that the idea of losing your salvation, if we can gain it back again later, has some issues for OSAS. It is probably good for NOSAS to be aware of this.

Perhaps you can share with us what it is about the OSAS position that bothers you.

Thx,

BD

Slug1
Jun 21st 2010, 01:55 AM
Slug1,

Thx. Can't respond since we are not debating. I think what Looking Up is saying is that when we become a Christian, it is referred biblically as "born again" or "spiritual birth." Being "restored" would assume that someone had fallen in status, but was not spiritually dead. Anyway, the point for this thread is that the idea of losing your salvation, if we can gain it back again later, has some issues for OSAS. It is probably good for NOSAS to be aware of this.

Perhaps you can share with us what it is about the OSAS position that bothers you.

Thx,

BDThe main one... the fact that OSAS won't seek this restoration as a concern of their salvation. I mean, if you're saved and thats it... who needs restoration?

That's a problem.

You're right, they were not spiritually "dead"... dying is always what one does once they turn away from Christ. This dying is final if they had not "repented" and either are restored or are in the process of restoration and they happen to pass on. In other words, they are not "withered" any more.

Die when withered... scripture is clear.

I hope this don't derail the thread but all this week I've been reading the "How many times can one be Born Again?" and I never understood this line of thought. As if this helps the OSAS camp of people. We are only Born Again once... after that you stand or you fall and if you fall, until you repent, you are fallen and fall farther and farther... it's in the Bible as withered. This can be reversed by repenting. You are not Born Again... again. You are restored and are not falling anymore.

Why is that so hard to understand as we all read the Bible?

kay-gee
Jun 21st 2010, 03:14 AM
Not a chance! Far, far from it. I am just not conservative enough for them. I'm "free grace."


But I think that all Baptist churches make too big a deal about the mode of baptism. I think immersion can be defended as biblical, but do you think our Lord really cares whether we dip em or sprinkle em?
BD

You can bet your boots He cares!!!

Why would He command something and then provide the example and NOT CARE...absurd!

God told Moses exactly how to build the tabernacle. Was he at liberty to use iron in place of gold?

There is a modern idea that God doesn't really give a hoot about what He commands.

all the best...

crossnote
Jun 21st 2010, 03:25 AM
But Holy Writ clearly states that one who turns from the faith of Christ has fallen from grace - has become severed from Christ. Only a Christian can be "in Christ" and only a Christian can be "severed from Christ". Hindus, Buddhists, evangelical atheists, etc cannot be severed from Christ as they were never in Christ. You may want to review your notes a bit closer - it's really an easy concept.

I take it you are using Gal 5:4 for your 'severed from Christ' argument. Where does this say it is a permanent severance? Perhaps a few translations of the same verse will help shed some light?

you whoever are justified by Law, you were severed from Christ; you fell from grace. LITV(Gal 5:4)

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. KJV (Gal 5:4)

ye were freed from the Christ, ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away; YLT(Gal 5:4)

Ye have renounced the Messiah, ye who seek justification by the law: and ye have apostatized from grace.
Murdock (Gal 5:4)

You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace. Douay (Gal 5:4)

You have become estranged from Christ, you who are justified by law; you have fallen from grace. EMTV (Gal 5:4)

Those of you who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from Christ. You have fallen away from grace.
ISV (Gal 5:4)

In the light of these translations, I could easily say (and I believe correctly) that it is not God who 'severs' but the believers do it to themselves when they resort back to being justified by the law instaed of Christ. This does not mean that Christ has cast them off, for He knows how to deal with the weak and wayward as Paul was gently dealing with these Galatians who were reverting back to the law to be justified under the teaching of wolves who had snuck in to exploit their liberty in Christ.

losthorizon
Jun 21st 2010, 03:32 AM
I take it you are using Gal 5:4 for your 'severed from Christ' argument. Where does this say it is a permanent severance?

Then you agree that it is a severance from Christ but only temporary? Per the text how long does this temporary severance from Christ last?



In the light of these translations, I could easily say (and I believe correctly) that it is not God who 'severs' but the believers do it to themselves when they resort back to being justified by the law instaed of Christ.
It is God who puts one "in Christ" and only God can sever one from Christ but God only severs those who are in rebellion and refuse to repent.
"You wicked person! May your money be lost with you if you think God's gifts can be bought. You do not have any part in this work, for your heart is not right in God's sight. Unless you repent of your sins and pray God to forgive your wicked thoughts you will be lost, for now you are bound fast with sin as with a chain." (Acts 8)

kay-gee
Jun 21st 2010, 11:46 AM
The main one... the fact that OSAS won't seek this restoration as a concern of their salvation. I mean, if you're saved and thats it... who needs restoration?

That's a problem.

You're right, they were not spiritually "dead"... dying is always what one does once they turn away from Christ. This dying is final if they had not "repented" and either are restored or are in the process of restoration and they happen to pass on. In other words, they are not "withered" any more.

Die when withered... scripture is clear.

I hope this don't derail the thread but all this week I've been reading the "How many times can one be Born Again?" and I never understood this line of thought. As if this helps the OSAS camp of people. We are only Born Again once... after that you stand or you fall and if you fall, until you repent, you are fallen and fall farther and farther... it's in the Bible as withered. This can be reversed by repenting. You are not Born Again... again. You are restored and are not falling anymore.

Why is that so hard to understand as we all read the Bible?

Slug1 my friend. Youre batting them right out of the park now! What's going on? I have never been so in agreement with you.

all the best...

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2010, 12:38 PM
FF,

Thx. I see your point. But I'm not going to debate you on this, since the purpose of this thread is simply to share WHY we believe as we do, sans debate. I think it is good for NOSAS to think about this idea of God as our Father.

Thx,

BD

Thanks BD,

Firstfruits

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 21st 2010, 02:11 PM
True, a 'conditional' pregnancy is no pregnancy at all and so those who hold to losing ones salvation (conditional) was (under their definition) no salvation at all.
Scripture on conditional salvation? That is the other's idea, ask them.

As others have pointed out, the smallest of words can have a huge impact on scripture...ie "if" which makes these "conditional"

Continuing the faith

Colossians 1:22-23
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

John 8:31-32
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Romans 2:6-8
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

Romans 11:22
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:2
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep (or hold fast) in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 4:16
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 2:1
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip

Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

Hebrews 4:14
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 10:36-38
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

1 John 2:24-25
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life

BadDog
Jun 21st 2010, 03:32 PM
You can bet your boots He cares!!!

Why would He command something and then provide the example and NOT CARE...absurd!

God told Moses exactly how to build the tabernacle. Was he at liberty to use iron in place of gold?

There is a modern idea that God doesn't really give a hoot about what He commands.

all the best...kay-gee,

We're not debating in this thread, so I'll be very brief. What I said was that IMO baptism was by immersion, probably. Then I asked if God really cared so much how a person was baptized. The idea is that He is really concerned that someone has come to faith in Christ! Compared to that, what is the significance of the mode of baptism. IOW, if God commanded us to be baptized, and someone, perhaps erroneously, understands that to mean to sprinkle water, I think the Lord is aware of this. My concern about the Primitive Baptist denomination is that you actually have to be baptized in their church, though you are already saved and have already been baptized by immersion, IOT become a member. I do not think that is biblical.

Now, if you want to debate the modes of baptism, perhaps you should start a thread on it.

Thx,

BD

Slug1
Jun 21st 2010, 09:15 PM
Slug1 my friend. Youre batting them right out of the park now! What's going on? I have never been so in agreement with you.

all the best...Hooah dude! When ya look at all these threads about OSAS/NOSAS, people have to ask themselves; why all the warnings in the Bible? Are the warnings directed towards saved or unsaved? We instantly determine that none are directed toward those truly saved because you are either saved or not, never truly saved.... EXCEPT those who don't heed the warnings, maybe those are the truly saved ones and they don't have to worry about restoration, about their sin, about withering, about their faith being dead... well, "deceived" is a closer description of this Christian... not "truly" saved.

If a Christian could not loose their salvation then why all the importance of repentance and restoration?

There would be no need for repentance if OSAS was true.

Bandit
Jun 21st 2010, 09:53 PM
Thx. I think things will be fine. I personally just want to know what NOSAS people think about what can cause us to "lose" our salvation.

BD

I think some of us have fundamentally different understandings of what it means to be saved. Some say it is a one time profession of faith: an acceptance of a certain set of facts about Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Others believe that those facts are just a piece of the whole, and that another essential part can be summed up in two words: "Follow Me." The loss of salvation comes in when one no longer follows. Following Jesus has costs, and some decide they are no longer willing to pay those costs.

Slug1
Jun 21st 2010, 10:01 PM
I think some of us have fundamentally different understandings of what it means to be saved. Some say it is a one time profession of faith: an acceptance of a certain set of facts about Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Others believe that those facts are just a piece of the whole, and that another essential part can be summed up in two words: "Follow Me." The loss of salvation comes in when one no longer follows. Following Jesus has costs, and some decide they are no longer willing to pay those costs.Hooah, if your thoughts here had no truth... then there would be no need for the parable of the sower. That parable even gives us some of the examples of people walking away and persecution is just one reason.

BadDog
Jun 22nd 2010, 01:55 AM
I think some of us have fundamentally different understandings of what it means to be saved. Some say it is a one time profession of faith: an acceptance of a certain set of facts about Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Others believe that those facts are just a piece of the whole, and that another essential part can be summed up in two words: "Follow Me." The loss of salvation comes in when one no longer follows. Following Jesus has costs, and some decide they are no longer willing to pay those costs.Bandit,

Could not agree more... No one holds to that more ardently than do I. (Up to where you talked about "follow me," that is. That's not the gospel message, my friend.) You had me going at first!

Now I also think that people seem to think that we say something, follow someone when he mumbles certain words, or claim to accept certain "facts" as true is what is meant by "believe." Way wrong.


We are not saved by coming forward or raising our hand.
We are not saved by saying certain words or praying a particular prayer.
We are not saved by acknowledging that we are sinners.
We are not saved by "repenting" (change of mind/attitude) of our sin.
We are not saved by turning from our sin.
We are not saved by deciding to "follow Him."


Where does the Bible say that we are saved by any of the above?! We are saved by trusting in Christ for eternal life. Period. I am not saying that a person coming forward at a crusade or altar call was not saved. I am saying that he was saved when he truly trusted in Christ--believed the gospel message. That may have happened when he decided to raise his hand, or after some counseling... who knows?

Now I understand the desire to qualify "faith" as "follow Me." I have seen so many Christians who are wimps spiritually. :P I think that when someone genuinely trusts in Christ for eternal life, he is going to want to follow Christ - no doubt about that. But "faith" and "discipleship" are not the same thing. Now Jesus did make an appeal for people to "follow Me." But you do not see that outside of Christ in the gospels. You might say that to appeal to "follow Me" understands that one must certainly believe that the said person you are following is the Christ... But what about Judas? He never believed, and he was one of the 12 disciples. So I have to stick with "believe in Me."

People seem to think that to say that we are saved by faith alone means that we are saved when we utter certain words, or pray them. That's not what my Bible says.

And just FYI, this is one of the things that frustrates me most about the OSAS/NOSAS debate... so many people really do not understand the gospel. That is why I have said repeatedly that OSAS debates don't get me excited... debates on the purity of the gospel do, however. :P

BD

crossnote
Jun 22nd 2010, 02:15 AM
There would be no need for repentance if OSAS was true.

The elect repent daily, knowing their wayward heart. This has nothing to do with lost/saved, lost/saved, lost/saved, lost/saved...ad infinitum ad naseum.

crossnote
Jun 22nd 2010, 02:19 AM
As others have pointed out, the smallest of words can have a huge impact on scripture...ie "if" which makes these "conditional"

Continuing the faith

Colossians 1:22-23
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

John 8:31-32
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Romans 2:6-8
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

Romans 11:22
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:2
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep (or hold fast) in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 4:16
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 2:1
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip

Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

Hebrews 4:14
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 10:36-38
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

1 John 2:24-25
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life

Which of those Scriptures point to a Christian ending up in everlasting hell fire?
So aren't we either fully saved or not at all...no more of this half-pregnancy talk eh?

Slug1
Jun 22nd 2010, 03:04 AM
The elect repent daily, knowing their wayward heart. This has nothing to do with lost/saved, lost/saved, lost/saved, lost/saved...ad infinitum ad naseum.The "who" repent daily?

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 22nd 2010, 02:33 PM
Which of those Scriptures point to a Christian ending up in everlasting hell fire?
So aren't we either fully saved or not at all...no more of this half-pregnancy talk eh?

Let's see...
Romans 2:6-8
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

Romans 11:22
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Does indignation, wrath, and cut off sound like words that would describe a Christian's entrance into the kingdom of God?

Slug1
Jun 22nd 2010, 05:54 PM
The elect repent daily, knowing their wayward heart. This has nothing to do with lost/saved, lost/saved, lost/saved, lost/saved...ad infinitum ad naseum.


The "who" repent daily?

Does anyone know what the "who" is that Crossnote is talking about as opposed to the rest of us "saved" Christians who repent of our sin?

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 22nd 2010, 07:36 PM
Does anyone know what the "who" is that Crossnote is talking about as opposed to the rest of us "saved" Christians who repent of our sin?
the "elect" of course...irresistible grace

thedee
Jun 22nd 2010, 07:56 PM
Let's see...
Romans 2:6-8
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

Romans 11:22
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Does indignation, wrath, and cut off sound like words that would describe a Christian's entrance into the kingdom of God?

According to Romans 2 verse 7, it seems that eternal life can be gained by doing good. But Romans clearly teaches justification by faith (3:22). But Paul does not contradict himself. The subject of this verse is judgement, not justification. Believers who continue in good works will receive rewards.

"If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." - 1 Cor 3:15

John146
Jun 22nd 2010, 09:41 PM
Bandit,

Could not agree more... No one holds to that more ardently than do I. (Up to where you talked about "follow me," that is. That's not the gospel message, my friend.) You had me going at first!

Now I also think that people seem to think that we say something, follow someone when he mumbles certain words, or claim to accept certain "facts" as true is what is meant by "believe." Way wrong.

[LIST]
We are not saved by acknowledging that we are sinners.Are you sure about that? What is your understanding of the following passage:

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.



We are not saved by "repenting" (change of mind/attitude) of our sin.What is your understanding of the following passage:

2 Cor 7
9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.



We are not saved by deciding to "follow Him."What is your understanding of the following passage:

Matt 10
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


Where does the Bible say that we are saved by any of the above?!See above.


We are saved by trusting in Christ for eternal life. Period.Yes, but what does that mean? I believe the passages I shared above shed light on what it really means to trust in Christ for eternal life.


Now I understand the desire to qualify "faith" as "follow Me." I have seen so many Christians who are wimps spiritually. :P I think that when someone genuinely trusts in Christ for eternal life, he is going to want to follow Christ - no doubt about that. But "faith" and "discipleship" are not the same thing. Now Jesus did make an appeal for people to "follow Me." But you do not see that outside of Christ in the gospels. You might say that to appeal to "follow Me" understands that one must certainly believe that the said person you are following is the Christ... But what about Judas? He never believed, and he was one of the 12 disciples. So I have to stick with "believe in Me."But what does it mean to believe in Him? To truly believe in Him is to follow Him, to submit to Him as Lord of your life, does it not? Didn't Paul say that those who confess Jesus as Lord and believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead would be saved (Rom 10:9-10)? How do we somehow leave out the need for people to submit themselves to Him as their Lord?

BadDog
Jun 22nd 2010, 10:10 PM
John146,

I am sure, and tempted to reply. But that's not what this thread is about.

When I started this thread, I wanted to put a time limit on it as it's just impossible to stay on sharing motivations instead of debating. :P I really appreciate how everyone has participated! But I just asked a mod to close things down. I think this has run its course. Why don't you guys start a new OSAS type thread. :D

Thx

BD

DeafPosttrib
Jun 23rd 2010, 12:07 AM
NOSAS. Because, I have seen so MUCH OVERWHELMED passages throughout in the Bible from O.T. to N.T. talking lot about warnings and conditionals. That why, I rather listen to the Bible than what men saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

kay-gee
Jun 23rd 2010, 12:15 AM
NOSAS. Because, I have seen so MUCH OVERWHELMED passages throughout in the Bible from O.T. to N.T. talking lot about warnings and conditionals. That why, I rather listen to the Bible than what men saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Amen to that

all the best...

Slug1
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:39 AM
the "elect" of course...irresistible graceSo what side of Jesus do these "elect" stand on? There is the right with all the sheep and there is the left with all the goats... where do those who say they are the elect stand on?

crossnote
Jun 23rd 2010, 03:21 AM
So what side of Jesus do these "elect" stand on? There is the right with all the sheep and there is the left with all the goats... where do those who say they are the elect stand on?

Which side? This side...

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
(Rom 8:28-37)

TrustingFollower
Jun 23rd 2010, 04:49 AM
John146,

I am sure, and tempted to reply. But that's not what this thread is about.

When I started this thread, I wanted to put a time limit on it as it's just impossible to stay on sharing motivations instead of debating. :P I really appreciate how everyone has participated! But I just asked a mod to close things down. I think this has run its course. Why don't you guys start a new OSAS type thread. :D

Thx

BD

Per the request of the OP this thread is being closed down. Thank you to all who participated and withheld from turning this into an all out debate thread as most of these kinds of threads turn into. Everyone here desreves kudos for the Christ like manor in which this discussion has been conducted.

God bless,
TrustingFollower