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Sherry W
Jun 19th 2010, 07:22 PM
I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?

markedward
Jun 19th 2010, 07:41 PM
We are not saved by works. But we are judged according to our works. The unsaved are punished according to their wickedness; the saved are rewarded according to their righteousness.

Sherry W
Jun 19th 2010, 08:30 PM
Getting judged determines our saved or lost condition.

Butch5
Jun 19th 2010, 08:56 PM
I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?

What exactly is it you would like cleared up?

amazzin
Jun 19th 2010, 09:09 PM
I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?

Well, no that's a roman Catholic belief. Are you an RC

The example of Nicodemous is a good one. Jesus was clar to this rich man that he had to be born again.

We are not saved from our good works but being saved produces good works. It's a fruit of being saved

jayne
Jun 19th 2010, 09:10 PM
I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?

Go back to the scripture you cited - Ephesians 2:8-9

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Now go back and include the very next verse - verse 10.

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

As saved people, we will do good works not to BE saved, but because we ARE saved. God has little things and big things that he requires of us as Christians. Work - which God prepared in advance for us to do after we are saved.

Butch5
Jun 19th 2010, 09:12 PM
Well, no that's a roman Catholic belief. Are you an RC

The example of Nicodemous is a good one. Jesus was clar to this rich man that he had to be born again.

We are not saved from our good works but being saved produces good works. It's a fruit of being saved

I'm not RC and I believe one must have works to be saved.

jayne
Jun 19th 2010, 09:19 PM
Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?

The rich man went to hell according to Luke 16:30 because he was unrepentant.

And he pleaded for someone to go and tell his brothers and warn them to repent so that they would not end up in hell also.

He never asked to leave hell and he never claimed that he ended up there unjustly. He knew that repentance was necessary and that he had not done it and that his brothers needed it.

The rich man was not in hell because of bad works.

jayne
Jun 19th 2010, 09:22 PM
I'm not RC and I believe one must have works to be saved.

If you are making reference to James 2:20 - "Faith without works is dead", then you are partially correct.

James 2:20 is the natural extension of Ephesians 2:8-10.

A Christian will be in obedience to God and instinctively and willingly perform the works that God has for him to do. That is evidence of his faith.

The works don't save him, but a saved person will work for the LORD.

amazzin
Jun 19th 2010, 09:29 PM
I'm not RC and I believe one must have works to be saved.

That question was not for you Butch

Butch5
Jun 19th 2010, 09:34 PM
That question was not for you Butch

I was pointing out that it is not just a Catholic belief. Actually it was the church's belief until the 1500"s

Butch5
Jun 19th 2010, 09:44 PM
If you are making reference to James 2:20 - "Faith without works is dead", then you are partially correct.

James 2:20 is the natural extension of Ephesians 2:8-10.

A Christian will be in obedience to God and instinctively and willingly perform the works that God has for him to do. That is evidence of his faith.

The works don't save him, but a saved person will work for the LORD.





James makes it clear that works are an essential part of faith and without them faith is dead. James says that Abraham's faith worked "WITH" his works and "Together" faith was made complete. He also said that faith without works is dead. He asks the rhetorical question can that faith save him? The obvious answer is no. So, if order for faith to save it must be a living faith or a complete faith. Well, James tells us what makes a complete faith, and that is a man's faith and works working together. So, the question is, if works are needed to complete faith in order to make saving faith, how can works be the product of faith? In other words, how can faith produce works when faith needs works in order to produce anything?

You see, his point is that it is faith and works that produce saving faith. So, this would imply that works are necessary in order to be saved. This is exactly what Jesus, Paul and James all indicate.

nzyr
Jun 19th 2010, 10:53 PM
We are saved for good works not by good works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Nomad
Jun 19th 2010, 10:58 PM
I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?

Hi Sherry,

The basic idea in Matthew 25:31-46 is one of separation not salvation. The sheep are not saved by the works of love and mercy we find listed. Rather, those works are used to distinguish the sheep from the goats or believers from unbelievers and false professors. In other words, those marked by works of love and mercy are demonstrated to be the children of God. Those who are loveless and merciless are demonstrated to be the enemies of God.

. . .for the tree is known by its fruit. Matt. 12:33

You also mentioned Luke 16. While it is true that the rich man demonstrated his sinfulness by being loveless and merciless toward Lazarus, that's not why he was ultimately condemned. The rich man was condemned for rejecting the light of the Gospel given to him through Moses and the Prophets.

Luk 16:27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house--
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers--so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

MeekandHumble
Jun 20th 2010, 12:13 AM
I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?

My friend, faith and works go together.

If you are a professed Christian and a poor man asks you to help him and you do not: is that counted against you? Yes, because we are to feed the hungry and dress the unclothed. If you are not a professed Christian and a poor man asks for your help and you help him: how does that count toward your blessings from God?

It's simple. If you believe that Jesus in the Son of God, what good does it do if you don't not help His children? If you help someone yet say that God does not exist, then you are "being a good person" but have no faith. Therefore you MUST have faith and good works.

crossnote
Jun 20th 2010, 04:02 AM
Don't let others fool you, we are saved by good works.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Rom 5:19)

Of course. It is on the basis of Christ's perfect obedience that we can even start to think about pleasing our Lord.

Sirus
Jun 20th 2010, 06:56 AM
I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?Yes. Mat 25 is "then" verse 1...
When?
After Mat 24 which is when Christ appears and believers in "the gospel of the grace of God" are caught up.
The separation of the sheep and the goats is not the GWT Judgment but Christ setting up His earthy reign (kingdom of heaven -earth -the King's domain of the universe) with the remnant of mortals.
You are correct that these sheep enter based on works. However, these good works are a result of man obeying the law written on their heart (Rom 2:14-15) and they did not know anything about doing them to Jesus because they did it unto His brethren. Christians do know this, so these sheep cannot be Christians from the gospel of the grace of God who are already changed incorruptible in Mat 24.

Firstfruits
Jun 20th 2010, 08:37 AM
We are not saved by works. But we are judged according to our works. The unsaved are punished according to their wickedness; the saved are rewarded according to their righteousness.

Is that not what happens at judgment, our works will either allow us entry into Heaven or our works will cause us to go to the lake of fire?

So are we not either saved or perished by our works?

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jun 20th 2010, 12:11 PM
We are saved for good works not by good works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Hi nzyr,

Actually if you read that passage in Ephesians you will see that when Paul says "not by works" he is referring to the works of the Mosaic Law, not good works. Paul speaks of two different types of works in this passage, in verse 8 he says works in verse 10 he says good works. Verse 8 is referring to the works of the Mosaic Law which we see by reading the next few verses.


Ephesians 2:8-17 ( KJV )
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

The reason Paul says they are not saved by works is because Christ has fulfilled the Law, he has broken down the middle wall of partition, he has "Abolished" the "law of commands contained in ordinances" You see the Judaizers were telling Paul's converts that in addition to faith in Christ they were also required to keep the Law of Moses and Paul argues no, Christ has abolished the Law of commandments contained in ordinances. This was the reason for the Jerusalem council and why Paul traveled there to seek an answer from the other apostles.

Then we see in verse 10 that Paul speaks of being created for good works. These are the works that are necessary. This point is made by Jesus, Paul, John and James (I spoke of James in my another). Jesus states this in Matthew 25 which the OP spoke of, He also speaks of it in John 5.

John 5:28-29 ( KJV )
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John also speaks of the dead being judged according to their deeds in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 20:11-15 ( KJV )
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And we have Paul, the man who wrote Ephesians 2:8. In Ephesians 2:10 he spoke of being create for good works, here are the good works he spoke of.

Romans 2:1-11 ( KJV )
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

I think it is clear from these passages that good works do play a roll in whether or not one will be saved in the end.

SirToady
Jun 20th 2010, 03:32 PM
I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?

Matthew 25:31-46 explains works (to be judged) summing up in 45-46:"Then He will answer them, saying,'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Frecs
Jun 20th 2010, 03:47 PM
I was pointing out that it is not just a Catholic belief. Actually it was the church's belief until the 1500"s

It was a Catholic Church teaching...still is...it wasn't an early church teaching as we see clearly in the Acts and Epistles. What happened in the 1500's???? The Protestant Reformation began in the 1500's.... 1517 to be exact....

What we see in the book of Acts and the Epistles is that the Apostles and churches struggled to sort out the question of works and faith. Same said go to the extreme of saying they could have faith unto salvation without having to have works -- pew warmers -- while on the other extreme some were saying that works saved. What Peter and James and Paul were teaching was that salvation was by faith alone but that the faith that was unto salvation would have a manifestation (fruits) of works. Faith without works is dead--you can not be a pew warmer and say you have faith unto salvation. Your faith should drive your desire to do good for others as unto Christ Jesus.

Works does not save. But, if you lack works, you need to examine your faith.....

losthorizon
Jun 20th 2010, 04:00 PM
I'm not RC and I believe one must have works to be saved.
Aren't we saved by a faith that works (obeys) through love?
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (Gal 5:6 ESV)

Butch5
Jun 20th 2010, 05:12 PM
It was a Catholic Church teaching...still is...it wasn't an early church teaching as we see clearly in the Acts and Epistles. What happened in the 1500's???? The Protestant Reformation began in the 1500's.... 1517 to be exact....

What we see in the book of Acts and the Epistles is that the Apostles and churches struggled to sort out the question of works and faith. Same said go to the extreme of saying they could have faith unto salvation without having to have works -- pew warmers -- while on the other extreme some were saying that works saved. What Peter and James and Paul were teaching was that salvation was by faith alone but that the faith that was unto salvation would have a manifestation (fruits) of works. Faith without works is dead--you can not be a pew warmer and say you have faith unto salvation. Your faith should drive your desire to do good for others as unto Christ Jesus.

Works does not save. But, if you lack works, you need to examine your faith.....


Sorry friend, but you will not see the teaching of "Faith alone" in the church prior to the Reformation so it was not an early church teaching. The issue that the apostles struggled with regarding faith versus works was the issue of faith versus works of the Mosaic Law. That is what is missed by most. They are not dealing with the issue of "Good works". Remember, salvation is of the Jews, the Jews had the Law that they "Mistakenly" thought made them righteous before God. Therefore some were attempting to apply the Mosaic law to the Gentiles and Paul argues against this idea. That is the reason for the Jerusalem council. We see in Scripture Jesus, John, Paul, and James all teaching the necessity of "Good works". What Christians must do is realize the difference in the works and how the Scriptures address these two "DIFFERENT" kinds of works.

Butch5
Jun 20th 2010, 05:15 PM
Aren't we saved by a faith that works (obeys) through love?
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (Gal 5:6 ESV)

Yes, I agree. However, I am trying to make a distinction, many say that good works are a result of faith, In other words, secondary to salvation. My point is that they are primary and not a result of faith. Yes, the one who has faith will do good works, but these works are not the product of his faith they are an element of his faith. Does that makes sense?

Firstfruits
Jun 20th 2010, 05:16 PM
Aren't we saved by a faith that works (obeys) through love?
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (Gal 5:6 ESV)

Good works accompany salvation;

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Firstfruits

nzyr
Jun 20th 2010, 09:53 PM
This was in our church bulletin one Sunday:

If you are a Christian, then you have been saved--Your spirit has been renewed, you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, your sin and your sins are forgiven...and you are being saved--your soul is being renewed day by day--your intellect is more and more convinced of the truth of God's word; your emotions (your heart) are being drawn more and more to know His love and to love both other Christians and the lost...and you will be saved--your body will be made like unto His resurrection body, so your body, which He has bought should be dedicated to His use. Does this describe you?--Then, if not, make it true of you by the power of His Spirit.

DO YOU EVER THINK you are not good enough to be saved? If so, you don't understand the Bible teaching on sin--that every man is a sinner by nature and can not possibly contribute anything to His salvation....and you don't understand the power of Christ, who died to save you, and accomplished what He was trying to do. Believe Him!

crossnote
Jun 20th 2010, 10:30 PM
Yes, I agree. However, I am trying to make a distinction, many say that good works are a result of faith, In other words, secondary to salvation. My point is that they are primary and not a result of faith. Yes, the one who has faith will do good works, but these works are not the product of his faith they are an element of his faith. Does that makes sense?
It seems you have made an incarnation of sorts out of faith and good works. Fine, but when it comes to the basis of our justification before God, it is on faith and not our good works. Man may not be able to divide the two but God does.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 12:20 AM
This was in our church bulletin one Sunday:

If you are a Christian, then you have been saved--Your spirit has been renewed, you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, your sin and your sins are forgiven...and you are being saved--your soul is being renewed day by day--your intellect is more and more convinced of the truth of God's word; your emotions (your heart) are being drawn more and more to know His love and to love both other Christians and the lost...and you will be saved--your body will be made like unto His resurrection body, so your body, which He has bought should be dedicated to His use. Does this describe you?--Then, if not, make it true of you by the power of His Spirit.

DO YOU EVER THINK you are not good enough to be saved? If so, you don't understand the Bible teaching on sin--that every man is a sinner by nature and can not possibly contribute anything to His salvation....and you don't understand the power of Christ, who died to save you, and accomplished what He was trying to do. Believe Him!

My friend, just because something is in a church bulletin does not make it truth. This statement in particular is totally unbiblical.


that every man is a sinner by nature and can not possibly contribute anything to His salvation

I posted numerous passages of Scripture above that contradict this statement. My question is which is more likely to be correct, your church bulletin or the word of Christ Himself?

Frecs
Jun 21st 2010, 12:39 AM
My friend, just because something is in a church bulletin does not make it truth. This statement in particular is totally unbiblical.

I posted numerous passages of Scripture above that contradict this statement. My question is which is more likely to be correct, your church bulletin or the word of Christ Himself?

The Church bulletin is in line with long standing doctrinal understanding of scripture. It is not unbiblical regardless whether you interpret scripture differently or not.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 12:45 AM
It seems you have made an incarnation of sorts out of faith and good works. Fine, but when it comes to the basis of our justification before God, it is on faith and not our good works. Man may not be able to divide the two but God does.

On the contrary my friend, that is the point that James' is making when he said,'you see then how a man is justified by works also and not faith alone'. You see this idea of faith alone comes from a misunderstanding of Paul's writings. In Romans 5 Paul says you see then how a man is justified by faith. However, if you go back and read his argument in context, he is arguing between faith and the works of the Mosaic Law. His argument is against the Judaizers who were telling Christians they also needed to adhere to the Law of Moses. If go back to chapter 2 of Romans Paul makes it perfectly clear that "Good works" are absolutely necessary for the Christian.


Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV )
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

This is clear, Paul says that God will judge every man according to his deeds. Those who do go, according to Paul are seeking eternal life and immortality. He goes on in his argument in chapter 3 to address the Mosaic law.

Romans 3:1 ( KJV )
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

the first thing to notice here is Paul beings to address the Jews, it was they who were under the law.
In chapter 2 he is address all Christians and says doing good works is equivalent to seeking eternal life, in chapter 3 he begins to address the Jews and raises the issue of the Mosaic Law.

Romans 3:19 ( KJV )
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

A reference to the Jews. He continues through the rest of the chapter speaking of the law. Chapter 4 opens with,

Romans 4:1 ( KJV )
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Another reference to the Jews. Now, based on what Paul said in chapter 3 he draws a conclusion in 4.

Romans 4:1-8 ( KJV )
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Paul argument is that the works of the Mosaic law do not justify anyone, because Abraham was justified apart from the works of the Mosaic law.

However, being justified is not the same thing as being saved.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 12:49 AM
The Church bulletin is in line with long standing doctrinal understanding of scripture. It is not unbiblical regardless whether you interpret scripture differently or not.

My friend, the Catholic church also has a long standing doctrinal understanding of Scripture, does that make them correct? The part I posted is in direct opposition to the passages that I posted in this thread. If you are in agreement with the church bulletin why not show how I have misinterpreted those passages.

I don't understand why Christians are so oppose to the idea that they must do works.

losthorizon
Jun 21st 2010, 12:53 AM
I don't understand why Christians are so oppose to the idea that they must do works.


I would agree - believers must do "the works of God" before they will be saved.
"What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (Joh 6:28-29 ESV)

Sirus
Jun 21st 2010, 02:23 AM
Yep! Just believe! That's what it says! :D
....works will naturally follow.

I don't understand why Christians are so oppose to the idea that they will do works.

nzyr
Jun 21st 2010, 02:47 AM
My friend, just because something is in a church bulletin does not make it truth. This statement in particular is totally unbiblical.



I posted numerous passages of Scripture above that contradict this statement. My question is which is more likely to be correct, your church bulletin or the word of Christ Himself?It's not unbiblical. We humans aren't good enough to save ourselves. We need a Savior, and that's Jesus Christ. We are saved for good works, not by good works.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (Hosea 13:14) Salvation comes from God.

Jonah agrees...

But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD. (Jonah 2:9)

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.(Ephesians 2:5,8-9)

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 02:56 AM
It's not unbiblical. We humans aren't good enough to save ourselves. We need a savior, and that's Jesus Christ. We are saved for good works, not by good works.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (Hosea 13:14) Salvation comes from God.

Jonah agrees...

But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD. (Jonah 2:9)

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:5,8)

My friend, I am in agreement with each of the passages you quoted. However, the church bulletin did not say we cannot save ourselves, it said we had no part in our salvation. None of the passages that you have posted here deal with the issue of whether or not man plays a part in his salvation.

As I stated above the the part of the bulletin that I posted is in direct contradiction to several passages of Scripture that i have posted in this thread. I have given you the words of Jesus himself, surely you don't hold the words of a church bulletin in higher authority than the words of Jesus Himself? I have also given you the words of the apostles, both John and Paul attest to man being judged according to his deeds, and James tells us that a man is justified by works in addition to faith. Are you placing the higher authority on a church bulletin than on the authority of these men?

crossnote
Jun 21st 2010, 03:44 AM
Paul argument is that the works of the Mosaic law do not justify anyone, because Abraham was justified apart from the works of the Mosaic law.

However, being justified is not the same thing as being saved.

Romans two shows that the problem of justification goes deeper than the Mosaic law. Paul shows that both the Jews under the Mosaic law and the Gentiles under the law of conscience are both guilty and are only Justified through faith in the Sacrifice God put forth in in His Son.
Being saved brings many more benefits than just being declared righteous but being declared righteous in justification is sufficient when it comes to facing God face to face in judgment. Actually, as I have said we who are justified in Christ have already passed out of judgment into life. Our good works would be filthy rags apart from the justified state we find ourselves in on account of Christ and His righteousness.

decrumpit
Jun 21st 2010, 07:49 AM
Works Do Save Us

I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?



Protestant model for salvation (faith = salvation +works)

Catholic model for salvation ( faith + works = salvation)

So how can we reconcile this? As posters have pointed out

1. We are saved by faith. Works cannot save us.

2. If we do not have works, our faith is dead.

3. We are judged on the basis of our works.

4. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" Mt. 7:19 - our faith is evidenced by our works.

5. James 2, Matthew 25, etc. are talking about our faith. The idea that you can be saved according to your works is not scriptural.

Faith is what saves. Not mere intellectual ascent, not only going to church, not only praying, not works, but faith. The concept of faith is much more complicated than our 21st century western minds can comprehend.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 12:15 PM
Romans two shows that the problem of justification goes deeper than the Mosaic law. Paul shows that both the Jews under the Mosaic law and the Gentiles under the law of conscience are both guilty and are only Justified through faith in the Sacrifice God put forth in in His Son.

Agreed, that is Paul's point in Romans. The Jews thought they were justified by keeping the Law of Moses, Paul raises Abraham as an example, Abraham being justified apart from the law proves his argument that the Law does not justify.



Being saved brings many more benefits than just being declared righteous but being declared righteous in justification is sufficient when it comes to facing God face to face in judgment. Actually, as I have said we who are justified in Christ have already passed out of judgment into life.

Actually I don't know that we have passed out of judgment,

Romans 2:1-11 ( KJV )
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, the key being "In Christ". For our acquittal to be realized we must remain "In Christ." You see we have not yet come to "The Judgment".



Our good works would be filthy rags apart from the justified state we find ourselves in on account of Christ and His righteousness.

Nowhere does God say our works are as filthy rags. That would create a contradiction in the Scriptures. It was Isaiah who said that Israel's righteousness was as filthy rags, and he said that in a particular instance where they had sinned against God.

Frecs
Jun 21st 2010, 01:22 PM
Nowhere does God say our works are as filthy rags. That would create a contradiction in the Scriptures. It was Isaiah who said that Israel's righteousness was as filthy rags, and he said that in a particular instance where they had sinned against God.

Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2010, 01:35 PM
Protestant model for salvation (faith = salvation +works)

Catholic model for salvation ( faith + works = salvation)

So how can we reconcile this? As posters have pointed out

1. We are saved by faith. Works cannot save us.

2. If we do not have works, our faith is dead.

3. We are judged on the basis of our works.

4. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" Mt. 7:19 - our faith is evidenced by our works.

5. James 2, Matthew 25, etc. are talking about our faith. The idea that you can be saved according to your works is not scriptural.

Faith is what saves. Not mere intellectual ascent, not only going to church, not only praying, not works, but faith. The concept of faith is much more complicated than our 21st century western minds can comprehend.

Our works show that we are either believers or not.

Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 01:39 PM
Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

I thought I was clear above.


Isaiah 64:6 ( KJV )
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Clearly this is not God speaking for He has never sinned. Thus we see that it is Isaiah speaking and he says "We", Israel, not every single human being ever born. He says "We" he is an Israelite. There is no refernece here to all of mnkind, and God made no such statement.

Frecs
Jun 21st 2010, 01:46 PM
I thought I was clear above.


Isaiah 64:6 ( KJV )
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Clearly this is not God speaking for He has never sinned. Thus we see that it is Isaiah speaking and he says "We", Israel, not every single human being ever born. He says "We" he is an Israelite. There is no refernece here to all of mnkind, and God made no such statement.

Fascinating how folks dismiss scripture because it was "to the Jews" or some other group to which they do not belong. :rolleyes:

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sherry W
Jun 21st 2010, 02:24 PM
To those who say that works are evidence of salvation rather than the cause, or are saved UNTO good works: That does help to clear up the issue.

I do have a question about taking in strangers: In this day and age, isn't it dangerous to do so? Also, even if you wake up alive the next morning and had nothing stolen, taking them in may encourage them to take advantage of us and it may be impossible to get rid of them.

Frecs
Jun 21st 2010, 02:31 PM
To those who say that works are evidence of salvation rather than the cause, or are saved UNTO good works: That does help to clear up the issue.

I do have a question about taking in strangers: In this day and age, isn't it dangerous to do so? Also, even if you wake up alive the next morning and had nothing stolen, taking them in may encourage them to take advantage of us and it may be impossible to get rid of them.

I would not recommend a woman pick up hitchhikers or take strangers into her home. We are allowed to protect our personal safety. I'm not so much concerned that they might steal property as they could harm us! I have taken in women who were about to end up on the street. Yes, it does leave us vulnerable to being "taken advantage of". Yes, there is the risk it could be hard to get them to move on. But, the way I looked at it, I was able to show them God's love, help them get a little more stable as I encouraged them to move on. But, that's the ministry God has put on my heart. I don't think it is necessarily for everyone.

Sherry W
Jun 21st 2010, 02:43 PM
The risks of taking in strangers apply to men as well. The only safe way to do this is if your bedroom has a deadbolt on the door (which shouln't be flimsy) and if your valuables are in the room with you. Also a cell phone as well in case the stranger were to cut your phone line, and a gun as well.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 02:48 PM
Fascinating how folks dismiss scripture because it was "to the Jews" or some other group to which they do not belong. :rolleyes:

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I am not dismissing it my friend. God simply did not say it, Isaiah did. The poster said that our righteousness is as filthy rags to God, God never said that. He didn't even say Israel's righteousness was as filthy rags. Isaiah said it "TO" God. It is right there in the verse, Isaiah said "We".

Frecs
Jun 21st 2010, 02:48 PM
ummm...I never felt the need for such measures..where God lead me to open my doors to someone in need, I just didn't feel the need for locking up my property or myself behind a deadbolt or having a gun....if you feel the need for those measures it may be a good sign not to do it....

You do realize that you are not required to bring strangers into your home in order to have "good works", right?

Sherry W
Jun 21st 2010, 02:49 PM
That is one of the deeds Jesus listed in the passage.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 02:51 PM
To those who say that works are evidence of salvation rather than the cause, or are saved UNTO good works: That does help to clear up the issue.

I do have a question about taking in strangers: In this day and age, isn't it dangerous to do so? Also, even if you wake up alive the next morning and had nothing stolen, taking them in may encourage them to take advantage of us and it may be impossible to get rid of them.

If we are doing God's work won't He protect us?

Frecs
Jun 21st 2010, 02:52 PM
You do not need a checklist of "good deeds" like some kind of "bucket list"... do as the Spirit leads you to do...whether it be opening your home to someone in need or prison ministry or soup kitchen or whatever....do what the SPIRIT leads you to do when HE leads you to do it.

Sherry W
Jun 21st 2010, 02:54 PM
Yes, but we don't always know if it is God's work in a particular case. The stranger could be just be wanting a handout even if he doesn't commit a crime.

Frecs
Jun 21st 2010, 02:58 PM
Okay. So the stranger is looking for a handout. What's wrong with giving him/her a handout wrapped in some love and Gospel?

Sherry W
Jun 21st 2010, 03:03 PM
Once you start, it may be difficult to move them out. The other deeds listed (feeding the hungry, for example, can be done by going to Taco Bell and buying something for them) in the passage can be done easily since the needy person does not know where you live, or even who you are, so you are likely to encounter them only once. Plus, what if the person you take into your house spreads word among other homeless persons that you do so?

Frecs
Jun 21st 2010, 03:10 PM
I don't think Jesus' was saying to turn your home into a homeless shelter to take in every stray you find...or that finds you. But, there are times when to do so is the godly thing to do regardless of whether they "take advantage" of you. If all you can think of in terms of opening your door to strangers is that they are leaches out to suck you dry, then perhaps there are other issues to be addressed. Certainly, with such a POV, you aren't ready to be used of God in that ministry. Perhaps others but not that one. That doesn't make you less of a Christian. Just that that isn't where your gifting is....

Sherry W
Jun 21st 2010, 03:51 PM
So in other words, it may not necessarily be a universal command?

Frecs
Jun 21st 2010, 03:58 PM
So in other words, it may not necessarily be a universal command?

Correct. We are gifted in different ways. That's not to say that on occasion God doesn't ask us to step outside that gifting and do something different but you'll know it when He does.

nzyr
Jun 21st 2010, 04:05 PM
My friend, I am in agreement with each of the passages you quoted. However, the church bulletin did not say we cannot save ourselves, it said we had no part in our salvation. None of the passages that you have posted here deal with the issue of whether or not man plays a part in his salvation.

As I stated above the the part of the bulletin that I posted is in direct contradiction to several passages of Scripture that i have posted in this thread. I have given you the words of Jesus himself, surely you don't hold the words of a church bulletin in higher authority than the words of Jesus Himself? I have also given you the words of the apostles, both John and Paul attest to man being judged according to his deeds, and James tells us that a man is justified by works in addition to faith. Are you placing the higher authority on a church bulletin than on the authority of these men?

You post too much. I can't read everything you've posted here. OK what church teaches what you are saying? I'd like to know. Here's another take on good works. Good works are proof someone is saved. Good works doesn't do the actual saving. Good works determine if someone will get a reward in heaven. Evil works mean someone was never saved in the first place.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 04:16 PM
You post too much. I can't read everything you've posted here. OK what church teaches what you are saying? I'd like to know.

Not many, many seem to hold to Martin Luter's error, that man is saved through faith alone.




Here's another take on good works. Good works are proof someone is saved. Good works doesn't do the actual saving. Good works determine if someone will get a reward in heaven. Evil works mean someone was never saved in the first place.

How are good works proof that someone is saved? I have seen the unsaved do good works. There are many who would say they are not Christians who feed the hungry and take care of the poor. I have seen Christians do things that would be considered evil works. but the real issue is what do you do with all of the posted Scriptures? Jesus said the "All" of those in the grave shall be raised, those who did good to the resurrection of life and those who did evil to the resurrection of damnation. Paul said that God would judge everyone according to their works, he said that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life immortality. Those who do evil are seeking indignation and wrath. John said he saw the books opened in heaven and then the Book of Life. He said everyone was judged out of the deeds found written in the books. James said that faith without works is incomplete and dead and unable to save.

In light of these passages how can we say that works play no role in our salvation and that man has no part in salvation?

nzyr
Jun 21st 2010, 09:57 PM
Not many, many seem to hold to Martin Luter's error, that man is saved through faith alone.





How are good works proof that someone is saved? I have seen the unsaved do good works. There are many who would say they are not Christians who feed the hungry and take care of the poor. I have seen Christians do things that would be considered evil works. but the real issue is what do you do with all of the posted Scriptures? Jesus said the "All" of those in the grave shall be raised, those who did good to the resurrection of life and those who did evil to the resurrection of damnation. Paul said that God would judge everyone according to their works, he said that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life immortality. Those who do evil are seeking indignation and wrath. John said he saw the books opened in heaven and then the Book of Life. He said everyone was judged out of the deeds found written in the books. James said that faith without works is incomplete and dead and unable to save.

In light of these passages how can we say that works play no role in our salvation and that man has no part in salvation?

What church teaches what you are saying?

kay-gee
Jun 21st 2010, 10:44 PM
I cannot speak for Butch5, but th Bible certainly teaches what he is saying. That is what counts.

all the best...

decrumpit
Jun 21st 2010, 11:03 PM
Not many, many seem to hold to Martin Luter's error, that man is saved through faith alone.

What is confusing about this? Please answer me - can works in and of themselves SAVE a person?


How are good works proof that someone is saved? I have seen the unsaved do good works.

If you want to look at this philosophically, good works are necessary, but not sufficient, to show that one has faith. Works are the result of faith, but works do not ONLY come from faith.

Our faith saves us, our works can't. For example, I might have the best works in the world, but I can do them to make myself feel like a god. I can do them because I was forced, etc.


Jesus said the "All" of those in the grave shall be raised, those who did good to the resurrection of life and those who did evil to the resurrection of damnation.

All will be raised - the raised "goats" go to the eternal fire.

nzyr
Jun 22nd 2010, 02:03 AM
I cannot speak for Butch5, but th Bible certainly teaches what he is saying.

No it doesn't. And I'd like to know what church teaches what he is saying. Can you or he name one?

crossnote
Jun 22nd 2010, 02:07 AM
Nowhere does God say our works are as filthy rags. That would create a contradiction in the Scriptures. It was Isaiah who said that Israel's righteousness was as filthy rags, and he said that in a particular instance where they had sinned against God.


Paul reiterates this truth in Phillipians 3 esp. vs 8...
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Php 3:4-9)

I would draw a simile between filty rags and dung.
Remember, I said 'apart fron Christ' our good works are as filthy rags, not as christians who are trusting in Jesus for their needed righteousness.

kay-gee
Jun 22nd 2010, 03:01 AM
No it doesn't. And I'd like to know what church teaches what he is saying. Can you or he name one?

Why is that important?

all the best...

Owen
Jun 22nd 2010, 03:31 AM
Paul reiterates this truth in Phillipians 3 esp. vs 8...
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Php 3:4-9)

I would draw a simile between filty rags and dung.
Remember, I said 'apart fron Christ' our good works are as filthy rags, not as christians who are trusting in Jesus for their needed righteousness.

Just to note, there is more than one way to translate verse 9, which could read as "not having found a righteousness that is from the Torah, except through Christ's faith, the righteousness from God that is based upon faith." If that translation is correct, Paul isn't saying that works isn't necessary to be righteous. Instead, the problem is making the Old Testament law the all encompassing basis for being righteous before God. Paul doesn't villify the Law either, but he is saying that the type of 'faith' that Christ has is necessary to be righteous. If we understand 'faith' not simply as a matter of belief or trust, but as defining the relationship of reliance and receptivity of Jesus to God (the Greek word 'pistis' could be used to describe a patron who relied upon a client for empowerment or help and in return awaited the word of the client for what the patron should do in return), then that makes greater seen of the contrast between righteousness 'from the Torah' and 'from God." One must be listening to God (through the Spirit) to do what God considers right, instead of listening to a static Torah that can not address every single possible circumstance in its letter. So Phillipians isn't changing the meaning of righteousness, that is the doing of works, but is rejecting the claim that the proper words to be done is wholly derived form the Torah.

BroRog
Jun 22nd 2010, 04:03 AM
Not many, many seem to hold to Martin Luter's error, that man is saved through faith alone.I wouldn't blame this on Martin Luther. What we have today is an over simplification of the Reformation slogan (and that's what it was) of Faith alone. They didn't actually mean "faith alone" as we understand it today. What they meant was "religion is not necessary for salvation." And what they meant by religion were things like attending mass, doing penance, going on pilgrimage, paying indulgences, self flagellation, genuflecting, reciting the Rosary, paying tithes, and confession among many other things. When they said, "faith alone" they meant "faith without religion", which is basically Paul's point in Romans.


How are good works proof that someone is saved? I have seen the unsaved do good works. There are many who would say they are not Christians who feed the hungry and take care of the poor. I have seen Christians do things that would be considered evil works. but the real issue is what do you do with all of the posted Scriptures? Jesus said the "All" of those in the grave shall be raised, those who did good to the resurrection of life and those who did evil to the resurrection of damnation. Paul said that God would judge everyone according to their works, he said that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life immortality. Those who do evil are seeking indignation and wrath. John said he saw the books opened in heaven and then the Book of Life. He said everyone was judged out of the deeds found written in the books. James said that faith without works is incomplete and dead and unable to save.

In light of these passages how can we say that works play no role in our salvation and that man has no part in salvation?

Good point. This brings us back to Sherry's OP, in which she rightly points out Jesus' criteria for entering heaven. Our behavior will flow naturally from what we actually believe.

nzyr
Jun 22nd 2010, 05:10 AM
Why is that important?

You can't name one?

Firstfruits
Jun 22nd 2010, 08:29 AM
According to the following scriptures God will judge us according to our ways/works.

Ezek 7:3 Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.

Ezek 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Ezek 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezek 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

Is this no longer the will of God?

Firstfruits

kay-gee
Jun 22nd 2010, 12:17 PM
You can't name one?

OK I'll take the bait. Roman Catholic??

all the best...

Frecs
Jun 22nd 2010, 02:10 PM
OK I'll take the bait. Roman Catholic??

all the best...

It's not a guessing game. :) I'd like to know as well....it seems a resonable request since they are rejecting two thousand years of orthodox teaching for their own interpretation...what church(es) adhere to this person's interpretation?

nzyr
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:10 PM
OK I'll take the bait. Roman Catholic??

all the best...Whether that's true or not I don't know as I'm not catholic. All of the ministers I've known do not teach that. I believe what the Bible says. And also what I've been taught by my minister(s). A question for you who say works saves a person. How did the thief who died along the side of Jesus go to heaven with Him after he accepted Jesus? Was he saved by works? What works did he do? According to your teaching he couldn't be saved. But we know that isn't true.

kay-gee
Jun 22nd 2010, 08:03 PM
Better to let Butch5 answer because I don't know.

Theif on the cross is bad example. Jesus gave him salvation in person. Not the same for us.

What about the rich young ruler. Jesus told him sell everything that you own, THEN come follow me. What about Zaccheus in Luke 19. in vers 8 he gives half of everything to poor and makes amends for anyone he's cheated up to for 4 times. Jesus says today salvation has come to this house.

Jesus granted salvation in different ways to different people, some included works to be done, some not. Thief on cross cannot be used as a standard for all.

all the best...

Frecs
Jun 22nd 2010, 08:33 PM
Better to let Butch5 answer because I don't know.

Theif on the cross is bad example. Jesus gave him salvation in person. Not the same for us.

What about the rich young ruler. Jesus told him sell everything that you own, THEN come follow me. What about Zaccheus in Luke 19. in vers 8 he gives half of everything to poor and makes amends for anyone he's cheated up to for 4 times. Jesus says today salvation has come to this house.

Jesus granted salvation in different ways to different people, some included works to be done, some not. Thief on cross cannot be used as a standard for all.

all the best...

Soooo...you are suggesting that God treats people different? There are different requirements for each person? How in heavens name am I supposed to know what is required for me?

kay-gee
Jun 23rd 2010, 12:11 AM
Soooo...you are suggesting that God treats people different? There are different requirements for each person? How in heavens name am I supposed to know what is required for me?

I'm not suggesting that at all. I am speaking of when Jesus was on this earth in the flesh. You need to understand...Jesus was God incarnate. When He was here, He had total authority to pardon sins (Mark 2:10) He could basically pardon peoples sins in any fashion He chose. For example the adulterous woman in Luke 8. All the woman is recorded as saying is "Noone Lord" He sent her away forgiven.

All that to say this. You and I don't have the luxury of having Jesus on earth in the flesh among us. We are bound by the instructions that He left for our salvation. If you believe Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38-39 mean exactly what they say, you should never having trouble attaining His salvation.

all the best...

Frecs
Jun 23rd 2010, 12:34 AM
I'm not suggesting that at all. I am speaking of when Jesus was on this earth in the flesh. You need to understand...Jesus was God incarnate. When He was here, He had total authority to pardon sins (Mark 2:10) He could basically pardon peoples sins in any fashion He chose. For example the adulterous woman in Luke 8. All the woman is recorded as saying is "Noone Lord" He sent her away forgiven.

All that to say this. You and I don't have the luxury of having Jesus on earth in the flesh among us. We are bound by the instructions that He left for our salvation. If you believe Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38-39 mean exactly what they say, you should never having trouble attaining His salvation.

all the best...

Interesting choice of verses with debatable issues in each. These serve better:

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Sirus
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:02 AM
According to the following scriptures God will judge us according to our ways/works.

Ezek 7:3 Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.

Ezek 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Ezek 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezek 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

Is this no longer the will of God?

FirstfruitsOh look, it says two things.
1) Repent
2) Turn
Not the same thing.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/211342-They-Which-Do-Such-Things!/page15

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:10 AM
Paul reiterates this truth in Phillipians 3 esp. vs 8...
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Php 3:4-9)

I would draw a simile between filthy rags and dung.
Remember, I said 'apart from Christ' our good works are as filthy rags, not as Christians who are trusting in Jesus for their needed righteousness.

He said the things he has lost "HE" counts as dung. That is not God saying that. The point is that God never said own works are as filthy rags, Isaiah said that about Israel.

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:17 AM
I wouldn't blame this on Martin Luther. What we have today is an over simplification of the Reformation slogan (and that's what it was) of Faith alone. They didn't actually mean "faith alone" as we understand it today. What they meant was "religion is not necessary for salvation." And what they meant by religion were things like attending mass, doing penance, going on pilgrimage, paying indulgences, self flagellation, genuflecting, reciting the Rosary, paying tithes, and confession among many other things. When they said, "faith alone" they meant "faith without religion", which is basically Paul's point in Romans.



Good point. This brings us back to Sherry's OP, in which she rightly points out Jesus' criteria for entering heaven. Our behavior will flow naturally from what we actually believe.

I'm not sure about Luther, he was rather sarcastic in some of his comments and down right belligerent at times. His attempt to remove the book of James from the Bible leads me to believe he has other things in mind beside those you mentioned in your post. James was not speaking those things in your post, so if that was what Luther was referring to the book of James should not have been an issue for him

kay-gee
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:22 AM
Interesting choice of verses with debatable issues in each. These serve better:

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Yes those are very good as well.

Not much to debate in Mark16:16 and Acts 2:38. some of the clearest verses in the NT. It is more a case of an acceptability factor. Some cannot accept such simple truths.

all the best...

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:26 AM
Whether that's true or not I don't know as I'm not catholic. All of the ministers I've known do not teach that. I believe what the Bible says. And also what I've been taught by my minister(s). A question for you who say works saves a person. How did the thief who died along the side of Jesus go to heaven with Him after he accepted Jesus? Was he saved by works? What works did he do? According to your teaching he couldn't be saved. But we know that isn't true.

Works don't save anyone, neither does faith, God and God alone saves. The question is whether or not works are necessary to be saved in the end. The thief did not have opportunity to do works, so obviously none will be required of him. However, what about the rest of us who do have oppotunity? You see, each man is responsible for what he is given. If you read the parable of the talents you will see this. One was given one talent, one was given two, and another was given five. The two who worked to multiply the talents given to them were both rewarded the same, they received 100%. However, the servant who was given one talent did nothing with it but hide it, he did not work to increase it and he was reject by the master and cast in out darkness. So the point is are we doing the works that were given to us? We don't need to worry about how many were given to the next guy. We just need to do the ones given to us.

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:36 AM
What is confusing about this? Please answer me - can works in and of themselves SAVE a person?

No, neither can faith. It is God who saves.




If you want to look at this philosophically, good works are necessary, but not sufficient, to show that one has faith. Works are the result of faith, but works do not ONLY come from faith.

This is my argument along with James. Works are not the result of faith, they are part of faith. How can works be the result of faith when works are necessary to give life to faith? Without works faith is dead and cannot produce anything. This is James' argument, he is not arguing that works are the result of works but that they are a part of.


Our faith saves us, our works can't. For example, I might have the best works in the world, but I can do them to make myself feel like a god. I can do them because I was forced, etc.

No, friend faith does not save, God saves, by grace, through faith, and works are a part of that faith.

All will be raised - the raised "goats" go to the eternal fire.[/QUOTE]

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:45 AM
No it doesn't. And I'd like to know what church teaches what he is saying. Can you or he name one?

The Bible says it my friend. James says faith without works is dead, it is incomplete. He asks rhetorically, can that faith save? The answer is no it cannot. So, to make this dead faith alive and able to save something must be added to it to complete it. Once it is made complete it will be able to save. James goes on to tell us what it is that makes this faith complete.

James 2:20-24 ( KJV )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You see James tells us that works make faith complete, once faith is complete it is a live and able to save. James says that faith and works work together to create a complete of living faith, which is able to save.

JesusMySavior
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:51 AM
I'm not RC and I believe one must have works to be saved.

How many works is enough?

crossnote
Jun 23rd 2010, 03:27 AM
Just to note, there is more than one way to translate verse 9, which could read as "not having found a righteousness that is from the Torah, except through Christ's faith, the righteousness from God that is based upon faith." If that translation is correct, Paul isn't saying that works isn't necessary to be righteous. Instead, the problem is making the Old Testament law the all encompassing basis for being righteous before God. Paul doesn't villify the Law either, but he is saying that the type of 'faith' that Christ has is necessary to be righteous. If we understand 'faith' not simply as a matter of belief or trust, but as defining the relationship of reliance and receptivity of Jesus to God (the Greek word 'pistis' could be used to describe a patron who relied upon a client for empowerment or help and in return awaited the word of the client for what the patron should do in return), then that makes greater seen of the contrast between righteousness 'from the Torah' and 'from God." One must be listening to God (through the Spirit) to do what God considers right, instead of listening to a static Torah that can not address every single possible circumstance in its letter. So Phillipians isn't changing the meaning of righteousness, that is the doing of works, but is rejecting the claim that the proper words to be done is wholly derived form the Torah.

Under that scheme there would be no assurance of one's salvation since there would always be doubt as to whether one is doing [what God considers to be right] enough.

BroRog
Jun 23rd 2010, 03:41 AM
I'm not sure about Luther, he was rather sarcastic in some of his comments and down right belligerent at times. His attempt to remove the book of James from the Bible leads me to believe he has other things in mind beside those you mentioned in your post. James was not speaking those things in your post, so if that was what Luther was referring to the book of James should not have been an issue for himDon't be too hard on the reformers. Remember, they were waking up from a very long slumber. I wouldn't expect them to get everything right immediately. We've had hundreds of years to sort things out.

nzyr
Jun 23rd 2010, 03:56 AM
Another scripture:

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30-31)

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2010, 11:48 AM
Oh look, it says two things.
1) Repent
2) Turn
Not the same thing.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/211342-They-Which-Do-Such-Things!/page15

That is right we must repent and turn from all our transgressions.

Firstfruits

decrumpit
Jun 23rd 2010, 05:08 PM
No, neither can faith. It is God who saves.

Ok, terminology - God does the saving but faith leads to the salvation.

So if faith does not save, how was thief on the cross promised salvation? He didn't have much time to do works.


How can works be the result of faith when works are necessary to give life to faith? Without works faith is dead and cannot produce anything. This is James' argument, he is not arguing that works are the result of works but that they are a part of.

I don't know. Anyone else care to comment?

newinchrist4now
Jun 23rd 2010, 07:12 PM
I would say the thief was promised Salvation bevause of his desire, i.e. if he could have done good works he would have.

decrumpit
Jun 23rd 2010, 08:58 PM
I would say the thief was promised Salvation bevause of his desire, i.e. if he could have done good works he would have.

Is salvation by desire biblical?

newinchrist4now
Jun 23rd 2010, 09:00 PM
Well I'd say it's up to God, He knew the thief's heart and motive :)

kay-gee
Jun 24th 2010, 10:17 PM
Is salvation by desire biblical?

No

The thief was saved because Jesus exercised His authority as God to save him. This does not apply to us. We are under the New Testament and must be saved by the directives of the New Testament as outlined in the great commission.

all the best...

JesusMySavior
Jun 26th 2010, 04:55 AM
Dude. Can someone answer me my question?

I really want to know how many works are enough. That way I can start because I think I'm really behind here.

Sirus
Jun 26th 2010, 05:01 AM
Don't worry. It's a short list of just a few religious exercises anyone can knockout in a day.
However then....oh then comes the fun part. You'll need to maintain good works. Keep a short account of your sins and confess them. All of them w/o exception or you are damned. There's a few others, but since you can't make it through with those there's no need to mention them. Eat drink and be marry for tomorrow you die. Enjoy the heavy burden and yoke! Jesus has given you a new set of laws you cannot fulfill.

The Mighty Sword
Jun 26th 2010, 05:02 AM
Ok, terminology - God does the saving but faith leads to the salvation.

So if faith does not save, how was thief on the cross promised salvation? He didn't have much time to do works.



I don't know. Anyone else care to comment?

Because the thief believed Jesus was the Christ, John 3:16, For GOD so love the world (thief) he gave his only begotten son (Jesus) That whosoever (thief) believes in him shall not perish but have eternal live.
The thief said LORD Jesus said Yes, he wouldn't have called Jesus LORD had he not believed, it's just that simple.

newinchrist4now
Jun 26th 2010, 05:21 AM
Dude. Can someone answer me my question?

I really want to know how many works are enough. That way I can start because I think I'm really behind here.

The good works list is given throughout the NT.

But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:22-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5%3A22-25&version=DRA&src=embed)

and

Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.

James 1:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+1%3A27&version=DRA&src=embed)

So there is no such thing as how many works, but that one does them.

The Mighty Sword
Jun 26th 2010, 06:06 AM
The good works list is given throughout the NT.


Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.

James 1:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+1%3A27&version=DRA&src=embed)

So there is no such thing as how many works, but that one does them.

This is actually an OT Law.

Exodus 22:22-24

22"You shall not afflict any widow or orphan.

23"If you afflict him at all, and if he does cry out to Me, I will surely hear his cry;

24and My anger will be kindled, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless.

Psalms 146:9
9The LORD protects the strangers; He supports the fatherless and the widow, But He thwarts the way of the wicked.

Are the keeping the Laws the same as "works" ???

kay-gee
Jun 26th 2010, 12:40 PM
Don't worry. It's a short list of just a few religious exercises anyone can knockout in a day.
However then....oh then comes the fun part. You'll need to maintain good works. Keep a short account of your sins and confess them. All of them w/o exception or you are damned. There's a few others, but since you can't make it through with those there's no need to mention them. Eat drink and be marry for tomorrow you die. Enjoy the heavy burden and yoke! Jesus has given you a new set of laws you cannot fulfill.

Heavy burden?!

You can't be baptized (once) and partake of the Lords Supper (each 1st day)?

Wow! how do you make it to work each day?!

all the best...

Sirus
Jun 26th 2010, 04:06 PM
Oh here you go with the baptismal regeneration thing again. Yes, baptism was included in the short list that can be knocked out in a day. It was not part of the rest of my post.
Are you saying the Lord's Super each 1st day is one of the works required?

moonglow
Jun 26th 2010, 05:09 PM
I know most will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 to say we are saved by grace alone, not works. But Matthew 25 says the sheep go to Heaven for doing good works, and the goats go to Hell for not doing them. Luke 16 says the Rich Man went to Hell for not helping Lazarus.

Can anyone help clear this up?

This has probably been addressed but just to make sure...(its really bothering me that you think the Rich man went to hell for not helping Lazarus) no where does it say that in that passage:

Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Don't read things into this that aren't there.

God bless

BroRog
Jun 26th 2010, 05:31 PM
This has probably been addressed but just to make sure...(its really bothering me that you think the Rich man went to hell for not helping Lazarus) no where does it say that in that passage:

Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Don't read things into this that aren't there.

God blessIsn't that the point of the parable? I think it is. The rich man ended up in hell because he "did not hear Moses and the prophets", with the emphasis on "hear." Had the rich man listened to Moses, understood both the meaning and the significance of what Moses taught the people, and tried to live according to what Moses taught, he would not have left a beggar to starve to death on his front porch. Jesus purposely has the character Lazarus situated at a spot where the rich man would need to step over him every day on his way out the front door. Any time the rich man went to work, went to play, went out to eat, and came home, he would trip over this man who was his fellow Jew. For this reason, the rich man had to work very hard to ignore someone who was at his feet everyday.

The parable seeks to make a point by exaggerating the normal circumstances in his life. Normally, I would guess, a poor beggar would be in the public square begging for change, not camped out in front of a rich man's house. But Jesus cleverly addresses our normal excuse for not helping the poor, "I just didn't know about him." How can we help those whom we don't know about? This is a fair question. We may never go down town. We might stay in the outskirts of the city and never see beggars. So Jesus places the beggar right on our front porch. Okay, what's your excuse now?

moonglow
Jun 26th 2010, 05:41 PM
Isn't that the point of the parable? I think it is. The rich man ended up in hell because he "did not hear Moses and the prophets", with the emphasis on "hear." Had the rich man listened to Moses, understood both the meaning and the significance of what Moses taught the people, and tried to live according to what Moses taught, he would not have left a beggar to starve to death on his front porch. Jesus purposely has the character Lazarus situated at a spot where the rich man would need to step over him every day on his way out the front door. Any time the rich man went to work, went to play, went out to eat, and came home, he would trip over this man who was his fellow Jew. For this reason, the rich man had to work very hard to ignore someone who was at his feet everyday.

The parable seeks to make a point by exaggerating the normal circumstances in his life. Normally, I would guess, a poor beggar would be in the public square begging for change, not camped out in front of a rich man's house. But Jesus cleverly addresses our normal excuse for not helping the poor, "I just didn't know about him." How can we help those whom we don't know about? This is a fair question. We may never go down town. We might stay in the outskirts of the city and never see beggars. So Jesus places the beggar right on our front porch. Okay, what's your excuse now?

Where does it say the Rich man didn't give him crumbs from his table? Where does it say Lazarus starved to death? It doesn't. He was obviously extremely sick and covered in sores. My understanding in those days anyone with skin sores like this were suppose to live outside of town anyway. I really think if the Rich man was condemned for merely not doing enough for the poor man, it would have said so but it doesn't.

God bless

Beckrl
Jun 26th 2010, 05:48 PM
Works don't pertain to Savlation, savlation is an free gift from God through his Son. The righteous do good works by the Holy Spirit which is in us. But the righteous and wicked will both be judged according to their works. Simple ;)

Beckrl
Jun 26th 2010, 06:04 PM
Where does it say the Rich man didn't give him crumbs from his table? Where does it say Lazarus starved to death? It doesn't. He was obviously extremely sick and covered in sores. My understanding in those days anyone with skin sores like this were suppose to live outside of town anyway. I really think if the Rich man was condemned for merely not doing enough for the poor man, it would have said so but it doesn't.

God bless

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

That part of srcipture goes with that which Jesus told of the unjust servant and Pharisees.

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Jesus concludes with the Rich mans brothers that if they wouldn't hear the prophets and Moses they would hear one from the dead.
The key point is that the Rich man knew to do good, but didn't. He felt as the Pharsiees that he was to good to stop and help someone as low as this poor man.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

moonglow
Jun 26th 2010, 06:06 PM
Works don't pertain to Savlation, savlation is an free gift from God through his Son. The righteous do good works by the Holy Spirit which is in us. But the righteous and wicked will both be judged according to their works. Simple ;)

Very true indeed. Works are a reflection of our faith. If I say I am a KC fan, I would then watch their games and cheer for them. I wouldn't be much of a fan if I didn't. My works..(actions) would not show I was a fan of them if I never watched any of their games or kept up on their wins and loses. This is no different. Anyone can do works...I have talked to atheist that help the poor...yet they aren't saved because they deny God..deny Christ. If the Rich man in this passage had bent over backwards to help the beggar he would still not be saved if he didn't believe. If works saved us then Oprah will have a front row seat in Heaven...but she has openly denied Christ...

God bless

moonglow
Jun 26th 2010, 06:09 PM
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

That part of srcipture goes with that which Jesus told of the unjust servant and Pharisees.

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Jesus concludes with the Rich mans brothers that if they wouldn't hear the prophets and Moses they would hear one from the dead.
The key point is that the Rich man knew to do good, but didn't. He felt as the Pharsiees that he was to good to stop and help someone as low as this poor man.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Repent is the key word. your other post made was right..this one is going back to works saving us...you are now talking like if the Rich man had helped him he would have been saved by his works. :(

Beckrl
Jun 26th 2010, 06:19 PM
Repent is the key word. your other post made was right..this one is going back to works saving us...you are now talking like if the Rich man had helped him he would have been saved by his works. :(

I think it goes back to Matthew 25:31-46 Of those that claim to be righteous.

Sirus
Jun 26th 2010, 06:25 PM
no one claims righteousness there

moonglow
Jun 26th 2010, 07:25 PM
I think it goes back to Matthew 25:31-46 Of those that claim to be righteous.

So now you are saying works do save us? :confused

Beckrl
Jun 26th 2010, 07:38 PM
Verse 37 Then shall the righteous answer...

Butch5
Jun 27th 2010, 02:18 AM
How many works is enough?

How much faith is enough? There is no set number of works that must be done. As I explained above, look at the parable of the talents. Each was given a different amount, two of the three men worked to increase their talents and were rewarded according to their works. Third however, did nothing with his talent but hid it in the ground, when his master returned he had no work to show and was rejected and cast out into outer darkness. And, the third man had the least amount required of him, yet still produced nothing.

Butch5
Jun 27th 2010, 02:19 AM
Don't be too hard on the reformers. Remember, they were waking up from a very long slumber. I wouldn't expect them to get everything right immediately. We've had hundreds of years to sort things out.

I believe the initial intention was good, however, I think pride and other issues entered into the picture after a while.

Butch5
Jun 27th 2010, 02:36 AM
Ok, terminology - God does the saving but faith leads to the salvation.

So if faith does not save, how was thief on the cross promised salvation? He didn't have much time to do works.

His sins were forgiven by Christ personally. I think a lot of the problem is that in America we are conditioned to look at things as a formula, either scientific or mathematical. We want to say that God must save everyone the exact same way. Therefore if one person in the entire world could not be baptized, then this proves that baptism isn't necessary. The same is said of works, if one person in the entire world does not have the opportunity to do works then this proves that works are not necessary. This is not the way we should be looking at God. He is not a mathematical formula, He is a living Spirit. God is not required to save everyone by the way we interpret the Scriptures. If He wants to save someone he can, no matter what. What we have to realize as Christians is that God has given us certain commands by which we "CAN KNOW" that we are saved. If we follow the commands that He has given us we are saved. However, if God chooses to save someone who has not followed all of the commands, He can. If He tells us that works are necessary, He can still save someone with no works if He wants to. God has obligated Himself to save those who meet His conditions, that does not mean that He can't save those who don't meet the conditions, it just means He doesn't have to do so. So, if we meet the conditions we can know that we are saved, if we don't meet the conditions we can still be saved in the end if God chooses to do so, however, we cannot "KNOW" now that we are saved.

nzyr
Jun 27th 2010, 04:08 AM
I'm not sure about Luther, he was rather sarcastic in some of his comments and down right belligerent at times.
Why are you hung up on Martin Luther?

nzyr
Jun 27th 2010, 04:22 AM
My friend, I am in agreement with each of the passages you quoted. However, the church bulletin did not say we cannot save ourselves, it said we had no part in our salvation. None of the passages that you have posted here deal with the issue of whether or not man plays a part in his salvation.

As I stated above the the part of the bulletin that I posted is in direct contradiction to several passages of Scripture that i have posted in this thread. I have given you the words of Jesus himself, surely you don't hold the words of a church bulletin in higher authority than the words of Jesus Himself? I have also given you the words of the apostles, both John and Paul attest to man being judged according to his deeds, and James tells us that a man is justified by works in addition to faith. Are you placing the higher authority on a church bulletin than on the authority of these men?My minister wrote that message in my church's bulletin. And I believe it. He was a minister for Jesus for many years. And as far as I know most protestant churches believe and teach the same thing. It's in the bible.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. (John 10:27-29)

BroRog
Jun 27th 2010, 05:06 PM
How much faith is enough? There is no set number of works that must be done. As I explained above, look at the parable of the talents. Each was given a different amount, two of the three men worked to increase their talents and were rewarded according to their works. Third however, did nothing with his talent but hid it in the ground, when his master returned he had no work to show and was rejected and cast out into outer darkness. And, the third man had the least amount required of him, yet still produced nothing.Good insight here.

Firstfruits
Jun 27th 2010, 05:48 PM
Good insight here.

It all comes down to doing what God expects according to his teaching/commands.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jun 27th 2010, 08:03 PM
Why are you hung up on Martin Luther?

Could you please expound here. Why do you think I am "Hung up" on Luther? I do believe that his cry of faith alone is unbiblical, having not been stated in Scripture.

Frecs
Jun 27th 2010, 08:25 PM
Could you please expound here. Why do you think I am "Hung up" on Luther? I do believe that his cry of faith alone is unbiblical, having not been stated in Scripture.

If anyone would like to read a well written position paper on the question of faith by grace alone and it's biblical basis, the Christian Research Institute has written this article (http://equip.org/articles/justification-by-faith)on Justification by Faith.

Butch5
Jun 27th 2010, 08:31 PM
My minister wrote that message in my church's bulletin. And I believe it. He was a minister for Jesus for many years. And as far as I know most protestant churches believe and teach the same thing. It's in the bible.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. (John 10:27-29)

My friend, I am sure your minister means well as I think most ministers mean well. However, the fact is that many of these same well meaning ministers teach different doctrines, some in opposition to others, they cannot all be right. If two ministers teach opposing doctrines they cannot both be right no matter how well meaning they may be. There are ministers who teach that one can lose salvation and others that teach one can't lose salvation. Both groups cannot be right. My point is that no matter how well meaning a minister is, there is always the possibility that he can be wrong.

The statement, man plays no role in his salvation is not in the Bible. It may be taught by many churches, however, that does not make it a biblical statement. I have given some pretty strong evidence to show that man in fact does play a role in his salvation. Jesus said, "All" those who are in the grave shall rise and be judged, those who did good to the resurrection of life and those who did evil to the resurrection of damnation. That is a clear statement showing that man indeed plays a role in his own salvation. Paul said that God will judge every man according to his deeds and that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life and those who are contentious are seeking indignation and wrath. John said in the Revelation that he saw the books opened and then the Book of Life. He said that everyone was judged out of the books according to their deeds.

Theses are the words of Jesus Himself and of His apostles. I don't really think it matters what any minister says if they are contradicting Jesus or His apostles. Now, many ministers may honestly not realize they are in contraction, and I Think it should be brought to their attention in a kindly manner. However, the fact remains that Jesus has the final say no matter what anyone says, and if we are in contradiction to His words, I think we need to reconsider.

I was in the same place you are a few years ago. I had a beloved pastor that I had befriended and was under for about 6 years before I realized that he was going off course in his study of God's word. I had to break away from him as a pastor, we are still friends but he is no longer my pastor. I urge you to consider the words of Jesus and His apostles, they are the truth, no matter what any church teaches today.

Equipped_4_Love
Jun 27th 2010, 08:38 PM
Hi, all;

Here's the way I look at it. It is impossible to do good works without faith....for without faith, it is impossible to please God.

It is our faith that produces these good works. It is not the works themselves, but the spirit in which they are done. True good works is the Spirit of Christ working through us, producing good works. These are works motivated by love for Him and for the brethren. A person can go to church every Sunday, and be told that his works save him -- so he is motivated to do good works and give of his resources because in his mind, that's the thing to do, but those are not works motivated by Christ, nor is it Christ working through him. Rather, it is something he feels indebted to do.

Will these works save him? No, because his faith was lacking.

We are not saved by our works of righteousness, but we are saved by grace through our faith in Christ, and works done in the spirit of this grace are evidence of our salvation.

The deciding factor is, what is the motivation for your good works? Is it guilt, debt, or is it a love for Christ and others?

So, then, what about the guy who, for whatever reason, was unable to do many good works? Even so, he prayed and he loved the Lord and allowed Christ to work in and through him? Will that guy be judged for not having done many good works? NO -- he will be judged by his faithfulness, and the spirit in which he served God and lived his life.

Butch5
Jun 27th 2010, 08:45 PM
If anyone would like to read a well written position paper on the question of faith by grace alone and it's biblical basis, the Christian Research Institute has written this article (http://equip.org/articles/justification-by-faith)on Justification by Faith.

I haven't read the article yet, however, if Justification were by faith alone then I would think that we would find at least one statement stating this in the Scriptures. I am rather amazed that this doctrine continues to hang on in spite of direct opposition from the Scriptures. I guess it goes to man's determination to have things his way. The Scriptures are clear and the amazing thing is that the only statement of faith alone in the Scriptures says exactly the opposite of what Martin Luther claimed. The Scriptures say that man is "NOT" saved by faith alone. How does such a doctrine hang on? I mean there in not a single statement in the NT that states this. I mean not even one we could argue was being taken out of context, there simply is no such statement, yet we have an absolutely crystal clear statement saying just the opposite, that man is "NOT" saved by faith alone.

:o

Equipped_4_Love
Jun 27th 2010, 08:49 PM
I haven't read the article yet, however, if Justification were by faith alone then I would think that we would find at least one statement stating this in the Scriptures. I am rather amazed that this doctrine continues to hang on in spite of direct opposition from the Scriptures. I guess it goes to man's determination to have things his way. The Scriptures are clear and the amazing thing is that the only statement of faith alone in the Scriptures says exactly the opposite of what Martin Luther claimed. The Scriptures say that man is "NOT" saved by faith alone. How does such a doctrine hang on? I mean there in not a single statement in the NT that states this. I mean not even one we could argue was being taken out of context, there simply is no such statement, yet we have an absolutely crystal clear statement saying just the opposite, that man is "NOT" saved by faith alone.

:o

Well, okay then...let me ask you this. Are we saved by grace, by faith, or both?

Frecs
Jun 27th 2010, 09:00 PM
I haven't read the article yet, however, if Justification were by faith alone then I would think that we would find at least one statement stating this in the Scriptures. I am rather amazed that this doctrine continues to hang on in spite of direct opposition from the Scriptures. I guess it goes to man's determination to have things his way. The Scriptures are clear and the amazing thing is that the only statement of faith alone in the Scriptures says exactly the opposite of what Martin Luther claimed. The Scriptures say that man is "NOT" saved by faith alone. How does such a doctrine hang on? I mean there in not a single statement in the NT that states this. I mean not even one we could argue was being taken out of context, there simply is no such statement, yet we have an absolutely crystal clear statement saying just the opposite, that man is "NOT" saved by faith alone.

:o

You did not bother to read the article and yet you posit an argument against it. Is that your process for going against all orthodox teachings? I mean I guess it makes sense. Why waste time reading about why a teaching is considered orthodox when you can just jump to a conclusion and say "they're wrong because I say so and I'm right because I say the Bible says this." Come on, at least read the article before you come back with "they are wrong".

Butch5
Jun 29th 2010, 01:45 AM
Well, okay then...let me ask you this. Are we saved by grace, by faith, or both?

We are saved by God, who has bestowed grace upon us, it is through faith, which includes obedience to His commands.

Butch5
Jun 29th 2010, 02:00 AM
You did not bother to read the article and yet you posit an argument against it. Is that your process for going against all orthodox teachings? I mean I guess it makes sense. Why waste time reading about why a teaching is considered orthodox when you can just jump to a conclusion and say "they're wrong because I say so and I'm right because I say the Bible says this." Come on, at least read the article before you come back with "they are wrong".

I didn't claim they were wrong, as I said I hadn't yet read the article. However, I think I presented some rather compelling evidence against Luther's doctrine. You claim it is orthodox teaching. Orthodox by whose determination, the protestant church? Luther's doctrine would have been considered heresy by the Ante-Nicene church.

You see you presented an article, yet on what authority is it based? Why should we accept it? Because it is logically laid out? Because of who the author is? I really am asking, I'm not being sarcastic. You see this is what I don't understand about Christians, as I said we have a crystal clear statement in Scripture that man is not saved by faith alone. So, why would any Christian accept a doctrine that is contradictory to the Scriptures? I mean I can understand if someone does not know this and is taught faith alone, but when the Scriptures are presented showing that works absolutely play a role in man's salvation, why do Christians continue to hold to the doctrine in opposition to the Scriptures?

We say we believe what the Bible says, yet when it says something we don't want to see we try to redefine the meaning of the words or change the focus of the passage. Why do you suppose that is?

Frecs
Jun 29th 2010, 02:28 AM
I didn't claim they were wrong, as I said I hadn't yet read the article. However, I think I presented some rather compelling evidence against Luther's doctrine. You claim it is orthodox teaching. Orthodox by whose determination, the protestant church? Luther's doctrine would have been considered heresy by the Ante-Nicene church.

Well, lets see. I'm Protestant. This board is Protestant. So, yes, I guess I'll go with Orthodox by Orthodox Protestant standards. The next question is, "what is that based on?" Answer: Scripture. Canon. Not deutrocanonical books as the Catholic church likes to use. Not heretical/gnostic books. Canon. Next question: "based on who's interpretation of Canon?" Well, let's see, we have the Apostles themselves as they record the development of Early Church doctrine in Acts and the Epistles. We have hundreds of years of Catholic Church history--not all of which was wrongly based on the deutrocanonical. And, then, we have 500 years of Protestant history -- 500 years of biblical scholars and philosophers.

You may be willing to toss out 2000 years as all heretical. I'm not. Do any, some, or even all of the scholars/Pastors/theologicans in those 2000 years have some issues? Of course. But, I seriously think that taking them as a whole we can be confident that as long as we are within the pale of orthodoxy, we are in good position.

History clearly shows that anytime -- ANYtime -- someone decides that orthodoxy is wrong and they are going to teach the true faith, heresy results.



You see you presented an article, yet on what authority is it based? Why should we accept it? Because it is logically laid out? Because of who the author is? I really am asking, I'm not being sarcastic. You see this is what I don't understand about Christians, as I said we have a crystal clear statement in Scripture that man is not saved by faith alone. So, why would any Christian accept a doctrine that is contradictory to the Scriptures? I mean I can understand if someone does not know this and is taught faith alone, but when the Scriptures are presented showing that works absolutely play a role in man's salvation, why do Christians continue to hold to the doctrine in opposition to the Scriptures?

Not based on the man or his presentation. Based on the fact that he is basing his argument on scripture. Based on the fact that he understands how to correctly divide the Worth of Truth rather than take verses out of context, twist until it screams, and call it New Truth. He understands false doctrines, false teachings, both current and historic. He knows of what he speaks. He is well able to present a reason for the hope that is in him. He does not claim, as you do, to have better understanding than 2000 years of theologians. He does know cults and averant teachings and can clearly show why it is averant based on scripture.

And, again, the Bible DOES teach faith alone by grace alone. The Bible does NOT teach salvation by works. You, my friend, are the one in err. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes. I truly do.

Butch5
Jun 29th 2010, 03:25 AM
Well, lets see. I'm Protestant. This board is Protestant. So, yes, I guess I'll go with Orthodox by Orthodox Protestant standards.

There is no logic or authority in this decision. Just because you are protestant and the board is, does not make what you believe orthodox. You see what you claim is orthodox was not orthodox in the early church. Do protestants have a right to change what is orthodox? Does anybody?



The next question is, "what is that based on?" Answer: Scripture. Canon. Not deutrocanonical books as the Catholic church likes to use. Not heretical/gnostic books. Canon.

Or would that be some one's interpretation of Scripture? Isn't that what this is about? Most Christians claim the Bible supports what they say, even when two Christians have opposing doctrines. At least one of them must be wrong.



Next question: "based on who's interpretation of Canon?" Well, let's see, we have the Apostles themselves as they record the development of Early Church doctrine in Acts and the Epistles.

The apostles weren't giving an interpretation, they were giving the Scriptures themselves. You see it is modern day commentators who are giving interpretation.





We have hundreds of years of Catholic Church history--not all of which was wrongly based on the deutrocanonical. And, then, we have 500 years of Protestant history -- 500 years of biblical scholars and philosophers.

Yea, 500 years of Protestant history most of which is in conflict with the hundreds of years of Catholic history, which of the two is orthodox???


You may be willing to toss out 2000 years as all heretical. I'm not. Do any, some, or even all of the scholars/Pastors/theologians in those 2000 years have some issues? Of course. But, I seriously think that taking them as a whole we can be confident that as long as we are within the pale of orthodoxy, we are in good position.

Well, again, whose definition of orthodoxy? What is considered orthodox today was not 1000 years ago, and what was considered orthodoxy 1000 years ago was not 1800 years ago. So, which Scholars are you going to choose? If you want to know what was orthodox simply trace a doctrine back through time, through the church back to the apostles. If you can do that then you have an orthodox doctrine, if you can't you have some guy's opinion.



History clearly shows that anytime -- Anytime -- someone decides that orthodoxy is wrong and they are going to teach the true faith, heresy results.

Wouldn't that make the Reformation heresy? After all it was not orthodox doctrine when Luther broke away from the Catholic church. If the Reformation is heresy what does that say about Protestantism?

You see my friend, in A.D. 325 the church began to go astray, and has been ever since. Many of the doctrines taught in the modern, what you call orthodox churches was not taught before A.D. 325. I equate A.D. 325 and the church with Adam and the fall.




Not based on the man or his presentation. Based on the fact that he is basing his argument on scripture. Based on the fact that he understands how to correctly divide the Worth of Truth rather than take verses out of context, twist until it screams, and call it New Truth. He understands false doctrines, false teachings, both current and historic. He knows of what he speaks. He is well able to present a reason for the hope that is in him. He does not claim, as you do, to have better understanding than 2000 years of theologians. He does know cults and averant teachings and can clearly show why it is averant based on scripture.

How do you know these things of him? There are many men who supposedly know how to rightly divide the word of truth that come to completely opposite conclusions. Are two men coming to contradictory conclusions both rightly dividing the word???

You say he know false teachings, if that is the case then why is he claiming that man is saved by faith alone? This doctrine did not appear in the church until Martin Luther's appearance. Remember, if we can't trace a doctrine back through the church to the apostles then we have man's opinion. Well, the faith alone cry can only be traced back to Martin Luther, no further.

I did not claim to have a new truth or to have a better understanding than 2000 years of theologians. I simply posted some Scriptures which you didn't respond to. Instead you posted an article. The article you posted does not nullify the Scriptures. Men can write articles all day long, yet the Scriptures have the final say. You see, the understanding that I have is not new and it is not mine, it is what was taught by the apostles to the very first Christians. It predates the Protestant church, and it predates the Catholic church. It is the teaching of "THE" church, the one founded by the apostles. The understanding I have can be trace back to the apostles, because it is what they taught to their disciples.


And, again, the Bible DOES teach faith alone by grace alone. The Bible does NOT teach salvation by works. You, my friend, are the one in err. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes. I truly do

My friend, restating this does not make it true. I posted the Scriptures and they are clear. There is not a single statement that says a man is saved by faith alone, and there is a clear statement that says man is "NOT" saved by faith alone. I gave the words of Jesus, John, Paul, and James, all stating that deeds do play a role in our salvation. So, you are faced with a choice my friend, you can either believer the words of Jesus, James, John, and Paul, or you can believe the words of Martin Luther, the choice is yours.

nzyr
Jun 29th 2010, 03:28 AM
I had a beloved pastor that I had befriended and was under for about 6 years before I realized that he was going off course in his study of God's word. What church do you attend now?

chad
Jun 29th 2010, 07:21 AM
How about this for an explanation:

Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too? - by Matt Slick

Roman Catholics often mention that the Bible never says we are saved by faith alone and that the phrase "faith alone" occurs only once in James where it says that we are not saved by faith alone. If this is so, then why do the Protestants say we are justified by faith alone and not by works? Because the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone, and not by works.

The following is a list of verses about being saved by faith. Please take note that faith and works are contrasted. In other words, we are saved by faith "not by works" and "apart from works", etc. The point is that there are only two options. We are saved by faith alone or we are not. Since we have faith and works (both conceptually and in practice), then we are either saved by faith alone or by faith and works. There is no other option.

If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let's take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James' statement about "faith alone".

1.Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
2.Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
3.Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
4.Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
5.Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
6.Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
7.Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
8.Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9.Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
10.Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
11.Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
12.Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.

James 2:24, not by faith alone
The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.

http://www.carm.org/are-we-saved-faith-alone-or-do-we-need-works-too

Sherry W
Jun 29th 2010, 02:17 PM
Where does it say the Rich man didn't give him crumbs from his table? Where does it say Lazarus starved to death? It doesn't. He was obviously extremely sick and covered in sores. My understanding in those days anyone with skin sores like this were suppose to live outside of town anyway. I really think if the Rich man was condemned for merely not doing enough for the poor man, it would have said so but it doesn't.

God bless
Even if the Rich Man gave Lazarus the crumbs, wouldn't he still have went to Hell since he could have given Lazarus a lot more (being that he himself faired sumptuously everyday)? God may still have viewed the crumbs as stingy.

moonglow
Jun 29th 2010, 05:54 PM
Even if the Rich Man gave Lazarus the crumbs, wouldn't he still have went to Hell since he could have given Lazarus a lot more (being that he himself faired sumptuously everyday)? God may still have viewed the crumbs as stingy.

But it doesn't say that Sherry. Plain and simple. There is nothing that to suggest the Rich man failed to help the poor man and that is why he went to hell. You and some others on here are assuming that and that is just dangerous to add to scriptures things that aren't there. If we take individual passages like you did in your first post and only look at those, false ideas can come from that..that works save us. Yet clearly the bible says otherwise.

Romans 4
The Faith of Abraham
Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God? 2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way. 3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”

4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. 6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:

7 “Oh, what joy for those
whose disobedience is forgiven,
whose sins are put out of sight.
8 Yes, what joy for those
whose record the Lord has cleared of sin.”

9 Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. 10 But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised!

11 Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. 12 And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13 Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. 14 If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. 15 For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)

16 So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. 17 That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, “I have made you the father of many nations.” This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing.

18 Even when there was no reason for hope, Abraham kept hoping—believing that he would become the father of many nations. For God had said to him, “That’s how many descendants you will have!” 19 And Abraham’s faith did not weaken, even though, at about 100 years of age, he figured his body was as good as dead—and so was Sarah’s womb.

20 Abraham never wavered in believing God’s promise. In fact, his faith grew stronger, and in this he brought glory to God. 21 He was fully convinced that God is able to do whatever he promises. 22 And because of Abraham’s faith, God counted him as righteous. 23 And when God counted him as righteous, it wasn’t just for Abraham’s benefit. It was recorded 24 for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast

This is why in order to understand fully what those passages mean that you posted, you have to consider the whole bible...not parts of it. I could take the bible verses I just posted here and say we don't have to do any works at all and be saved! That would be only part of the truth though. It would be false teaching on my part to say such a thing.

On judgment day us believers will be judged too...but not whether we are saved or not...we are. But the judging will be about our deeds, our good works for our rewards. For our crowns! Our works show we have faith! That is the difference. As I had said before if I say I am a sport fan of a certain team but I never watch their games and do nothing that shows I am fan...who would believe I was really a fan? No one. A sports fan always 'shows' through their actions they really are a fan by going to games, by watching them on TV...by keeping track of their wins and losses. Its no different with saying we are believers in Jesus Christ...we do things that show that. We feed the hungry..clothe the poor...visit those in the hospital and jails. There are certain things we do because we love God. If we did nothing....it would show our faith was really dead..and without faith, there is no salvation.

James 2
Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Adam Clarke commentary clears up what could appear Paul and James saying two different things..I won't bold this for easier reading:

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=jas&chapter=002
Verse 14. What doth it profit-though a man say he hath faith
We now come to a part of this epistle which has appeared to some eminent men to contradict other portions of the Divine records. In short, it has been thought that James teaches the doctrine of justification by the merit of good works, while Paul asserts this to be insufficient, and that man is justified by faith. Luther, supposing that James did actually teach the doctrine of justification by works, which his good sense showed him to be absolutely insufficient for salvation, was led to condemn the epistle in toto, as a production unauthenticated by the Holy Spirit, and consequently worthy of no regard; he therefore termed it epistola straminea, a chaffy epistle, an epistle of straw, fit only to be burnt.

Learned men have spent much time in striving to reconcile these two writers, and to show that St. Paul and St. James perfectly accord; one teaching the pure doctrine, the other guarding men against the abuse of it. Mr. Wesley sums the whole up in the following words, with his usual accuracy and precision: "From James 1:22the apostle has been enforcing Christian practice. He now applies to those who neglect this under the pretence of faith. St. Paul had taught that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law. This some already began to wrest to their own destruction. Wherefore St. James, purposely repeating, James 1:21,23,25 the same phrases, testimonies, and examples which St. Paul had used, Romans 4:3; ; Hebrews 11:17,31, refutes not the doctrine of St. Paul, but the error of those who abused it.

There is therefore no contradiction between the apostles; they both delivered the truth of God, but in a different manner, as having to do with different kinds of men. This verse is a summary of what follows: What profiteth it, is enlarged on, James 2:15-17; though a man say, James 2:18,19; can that faith save him? James 2:20. It is not though he have faith, but though he say, I have faith. Here therefore true living faith is meant. But in other parts of the argument the apostle speaks of a dead imaginary faith. He does not therefore teach that true faith can, but that it cannot, subsist without works. Nor does he oppose faith to works, but that empty name of faith to real faith working by love. Can that faith which is without works save him? No more than it can profit his neighbour."-Explanatory notes.

That St James quotes the same scriptures, and uses the same phrases, testimonies, and examples which St. Paul has done, is fully evident; but it does not follow that he wrote after St. Paul. It is possible that one had seen the epistle of the other; but if so, it is strange that neither of them should quote the other. That St. Paul might write to correct the abuses of St. James' doctrine is as possible as that James wrote to prevent St. Paul's doctrine from being abused; for there were Antinomians in the Church in the time of St. James, as there were Pharisaic persons in it at the time of St. Paul. I am inclined to think that James is the elder writer, and rather suppose that neither of them had ever seen the other's epistle. Allowing them both to be inspired, God could teach each what was necessary for the benefit of the Church, without their having any knowledge of each other. See the preface to this epistle.

As the Jews in general were very strenuous in maintaining the necessity of good works or righteousness in order to justification, wholly neglecting the doctrine of faith, it is not to be wondered at that those who were converted, and saw the absolute necessity of faith in order to their justification, should have gone into the contrary extreme. (end quote of Clarke)
******************************
If works alone saved us then it really wouldn't matter what religion we belonged too. We could be Muslims, Jews, Hindus because they all teach works save them. What has always set us apart from every religion in the world is that our salvation is a free gift from God that cannot be earned.

Romans 5:17-19

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

God bless

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2010, 07:15 PM
If what we do cannot save us then sinning should have no effect on salvation either, sin is work, but not good work.

Firstfruits

moonglow
Jun 29th 2010, 07:41 PM
If what we do cannot save us then sinning should have no effect on salvation either, sin is work, but not good work.

Firstfruits

How in the world did you make the leap from what works are about to sin like this? :confused

Pick any of these and read in content if you really think its ok to keep sinning...

Romans 6:1
[ Sin’s Power Is Broken ] Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace?

1 John 3:6
Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

1 John 3:8
But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9
Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

Beckrl
Jun 29th 2010, 08:03 PM
Without any assumptions made would the Rich Young Ruler of Matthew 19:16-21 have eternal life? He asked Jesus what shall I do that I may have eternal life? Jesus replies "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

moonglow
Jun 29th 2010, 08:48 PM
Without any assumptions made would the Rich Young Ruler of Matthew 19:16-21 have eternal life? He asked Jesus what shall I do that I may have eternal life? Jesus replies "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

Did you read the rest of that passage?

Matthew 19:16-25 (New King James Version)

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”[/U]
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Doesn't sound like he was saved even though he followed all the commandments...

I have to say I am really shocked that so many on here that I have known for years think works saves us. I really am...I don't see how anyone could be on this board for years and not know the basics of our faith. We certainly have enough discussions and studies on it...how did so many come to this idea? Its not taught in Christian churches even that works save us.

We should know also for instance a passage has to be read in content to fully understand it...and even then no doctrine should be developed from individual passages but ALL the bible to truly understand it.

God bless

Butch5
Jun 29th 2010, 09:06 PM
What church do you attend now?

I attend a Christian church. Cronelia Christian church.

Sherry W
Jun 29th 2010, 09:08 PM
Wouldn't the fact that Lazarus desired the crumbs from the rich man's table imply that they were withheld from him? If stinginess wasn't the point of the passage, why is it mentioned that one was rich and the other a beggar? Also, in Matthew 25 it seems to imply that works or lack thereof determined the destinies of the sheep and goats.

moonglow
Jun 29th 2010, 09:41 PM
Wouldn't the fact that Lazarus desired the crumbs from the rich man's table imply that they were withheld from him? If stinginess wasn't the point of the passage, why is it mentioned that one was rich and the other a beggar? Also, in Matthew 25 it seems to imply that works or lack thereof determined the destinies of the sheep and goats.

Sherry...what does this verse mean to you?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast

I just want to know before I answer your questions.

God bless

inn
Jun 29th 2010, 09:46 PM
Works don't save anyone, neither does faith, God and God alone saves. The question is whether or not works are necessary to be saved in the end. The thief did not have opportunity to do works, so obviously none will be required of him. However, what about the rest of us who do have oppotunity? You see, each man is responsible for what he is given. If you read the parable of the talents you will see this. One was given one talent, one was given two, and another was given five. The two who worked to multiply the talents given to them were both rewarded the same, they received 100%. However, the servant who was given one talent did nothing with it but hide it, he did not work to increase it and he was reject by the master and cast in out darkness. So the point is are we doing the works that were given to us? We don't need to worry about how many were given to the next guy. We just need to do the ones given to us.

Excellently put ! Works do not save, but are the natural outflow of what is in us!

Sherry W
Jun 29th 2010, 09:48 PM
It means salvation is a gift received by faith rather than works. But how can Matthew 25 be cleared up?

inn
Jun 29th 2010, 09:50 PM
Wouldn't the fact that Lazarus desired the crumbs from the rich man's table imply that they were withheld from him? If stinginess wasn't the point of the passage, why is it mentioned that one was rich and the other a beggar? Also, in Matthew 25 it seems to imply that works or lack thereof determined the destinies of the sheep and goats.

Do you mean the crumbs were with held by the rich man? I think the meaning is more about us not looking to what one has here on earth, as the gospel of the world is blessed are the rich , Jesus said, 'Blessed are the poor.'

inn
Jun 29th 2010, 09:56 PM
It means salvation is a gift received by faith rather than works. But how can Matthew 25 be cleared up?

Why do you feel it needs to be cleared up? I think Jesus said this to show the contrast between how the world and us as Christ's followers react. I would put the emphasis on verse 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The disciples were already chosen to bear fruit[Jn15], so they can only give glory to the one that chose them, and now that they are chosen, use 'your' talents.

Butch5
Jun 29th 2010, 10:07 PM
How about this for an explanation:

Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too? - by Matt Slick

Roman Catholics often mention that the Bible never says we are saved by faith alone and that the phrase "faith alone" occurs only once in James where it says that we are not saved by faith alone. If this is so, then why do the Protestants say we are justified by faith alone and not by works? Because the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone, and not by works.

This statement itself is contradictory to Scripture.


The following is a list of verses about being saved by faith. Please take note that faith and works are contrasted. In other words, we are saved by faith "not by works" and "apart from works", etc. The point is that there are only two options. We are saved by faith alone or we are not. Since we have faith and works (both conceptually and in practice), then we are either saved by faith alone or by faith and works. There is no other option.

Please note that fiath and "Works of the Mosaic Law" are being contrasted. Not all works, the works of the Mosaic Law


If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let's take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James' statement about "faith alone".

The Scriptures don't excluded works in any form, they exclude the works of the Mosaic law. As you read notice "All" of the quotes are from Paul, Paul was the apostle how had to deal with the Judaizers, who were coming behind him. Notice also that the majority of quotes come from two books Romans and Galatians. All of the quotes from Romans come from that section where Paul is addressing the Jewish Christians, where he is explaining how they are no longer rquired to adhere to the Mosaic Law, That they had been set free from that Law. In Galatians Paul is dealing with the issue of the Judaizers who were trying to make Paul's Galatian converts follow the Mosaic Law. He Explains to them that the Judaizers are wrong and the Galatians do not need to adhere to the Mosaic Law.


Galatians 3:1-3 ( KJV )
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

It is clear that someone is trying to lead the Galatains to the Law. These were Gentiles, the had not been under the Law, yet someone was trying to convince them that they needed to follow the Law in order to be saved. This is the basis for Paul's argument in Galatians.


1.Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

In this passage he has included “Works of the Law”. Paul is speaking of works of the Mosaic Law. Gentiles were not under the Mosaic Law. Therefore this passage is irrelevant to the authors argument.


2.Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Same book, same subject, the works of the Mosaic Law. Again, not applicable to the Gentiles and irrelevant to the author’s argument


3.Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Being justified is not the same as being saved. However, we still have the same situation. Same book, same subject, the works of the Mosaic Law. Again, not applicable to the Gentiles and irrelevant to the author’s argument


4.Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Again, being justified is not being saved. One can be justified now and lost later. However, there is nothing in this passage that denies the necessity of works.


5.Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Same book, same subject, the works of the Mosaic Law. Again, not applicable to the Gentiles and irrelevant to the author’s argument


6.Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

I think Paul has made it clear that he is speaking of the works of the Law.


7.Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Again, the works of the Law, not applicable to Gentiles only Jews.


8.Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

Again, the works of the Law, not applicable to Gentiles only Jews.


9.Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Again, the works of the Law, not applicable to Gentiles only Jews.


10.Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Again, the works of the Law, not applicable to Gentiles only Jews.


11.Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."

Again, the works of the Law, not applicable to Gentiles only Jews.


12.Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Again, the works of the Law, not applicable to Gentiles only Jews.


Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.

No, we are not told that we are not justified by works in anyway. Paul is saying that the Works of the Mosaic Law do not justify in any way.


James 2:24, not by faith alone
The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

No, the Scriptures do not clearly teach that we are saved by faith alone. As I have pointed out nearly every passage the author quotes speaks of the works of the Mosaic Law. The Gentiles were not and are not under the Mosaic Law. The author did not post this though.

Romans 2:14-16 ( KJV )
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.




There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

Wow, funny how he makes the distinction of the Law now.



James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.

James is doing nothing of the sort. If the author had gone into detail, as he did when trying to prove faith alone he would have seen his error. James clearly says that faith without works is dead, this faith cannot save. James said nothing of a “False faith” as the author implies, James simply spoke of faith. He said if this faith does not have works it is dead, therefore it cannot save. James contrasts his living faith with their dead faith. The difference is that James’ living faith has works their faith does not. James does go on to use Abraham as an example, he says you see then how Abraham’s faith worked together with his works, and by works his faith was made mature or complete. One his faith was complete it was a living faith that was able to save. So, James’ point is that works are what make faith complete, without works faith is incomplete or dead, and unable to do anything let alone save. So works cannot be the product of faith if without them faith is dead.

Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.

This doesn’t even make sense to me. It seems to me that he is implying that false faith alone is not sufficient to save. What must be added to false faith for it to be able to save? Are we saved by false faith and true faith?

I also notice that the author did not address any of the other passages that run counter to his doctrine. You have not addressed any of the passages that run counter to your doctrine. I have posted them. I did not find this a very good argument but I must ask, do the words of Matt Slick trump those of Jesus, Paul, James, and John???

Beckrl
Jun 29th 2010, 10:21 PM
Did you read the rest of that passage?

Matthew 19:16-25 (New King James Version)

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

The greater points are these, Jesus said, why call me good, for there is only one who is good. Indicating that no man can do enough good works to enter eternal life. Why did Jesus then tell him to keep the commandments? Later Jesus points that out to him in asking him to sell all and come and follow him. The man had told Jesus that he had keep the commandments from his youth, but as we see he placed money as his god.



23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”[/U]
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Doesn't sound like he was saved even though he followed all the commandments...

I have to say I am really shocked that so many on here that I have known for years think works saves us. I really am...I don't see how anyone could be on this board for years and not know the basics of our faith. We certainly have enough discussions and studies on it...how did so many come to this idea? Its not taught in Christian churches even that works save us.

We should know also for instance a passage has to be read in content to fully understand it...and even then no doctrine should be developed from individual passages but ALL the bible to truly understand it.

God bless

What my point is that you can't have "faith" and not have "works" nor can you have "works" [ie. good works] and not "faith".
For example the thief beside Jesus in that Jesus told him that day he would be in paradise with him. The thief would have no time to do any good works or follow any of the commandments. But he would have "work" as Jesus earlier spoke to the multiude about their faith in him as being work.

john 6:28-29
"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Titus 1:16
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate"

This here in Titus is what I was trying to show in the Matthew 25 passage. Those tought of themselves to be righteous for they asked the "Lord" when saw we thee an hungred....

Sorry for the confusion, but I really think it comes down to faith and works sometimes that hard to separate.

Butch5
Jun 29th 2010, 10:24 PM
It means salvation is a gift received by faith rather than works. But how can Matthew 25 be cleared up?

It means that salvation is not by the works of the Mosaic Law. Paul is not speaking of "Good works" in verse 8, that is verse 10 where he says they were created for good works. If you read a few verses further in Ephesians 2 this becomes clear.

Ephesians 2:7-17 ( KJV )
That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The Law of commandments contained in ordinances is the Mosaic Law, these are the works that Paul is speaking of.
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

moonglow
Jun 29th 2010, 10:42 PM
It means salvation is a gift received by faith rather than works. But how can Matthew 25 be cleared up?

The rich man never claimed to have any belief in God so why would his salvation be hinged on works to start with? We see the Rich Young man wasn't saved by following all the commandments either because he lacked one thing. He didn't want to follow Christ...

A person can follow the commandments to the letter and not be saved! That is what legalism teaches..that we have to do A, B and C every day..or else we might not be saved. This is what Jesus battled with the Pharisee about all the time.

The whole story about the Rich man and Lazarus isn't about works at all. Most people use the passage to show someone suffering in hell. They usually look at this passage to understand the separation between Heaven and Hell. This is the first time I have ever seen anyone look at whether the rich man did enough works or not to be saved. Look at the conversation after the rich man dies..is anything said about him not treating Lazarus well and that is why he wasn't saved?

23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Don't you see Jesus in this? He rose from the dead but still people didn't believe. If they didn't believe Moses and the prophets they wouldn't believe Him. This man didn't believe and was concerned for his brother and sharing the same fate as him. That is why he ended up where he did. There is not one word about him ending up there because he didn't help Lazarus enough.

God bless

inn
Jun 29th 2010, 10:46 PM
Sorry for the confusion, but I really think it comes down to faith and works sometimes that hard to separate.

Are you saying works save us? Yes or no?

moonglow
Jun 29th 2010, 10:47 PM
The greater points are these, Jesus said, why call me good, for there is only one who is good. Indicating that no man can do enough good works to enter eternal life. Why did Jesus then tell him to keep the commandments? Later Jesus points that out to him in asking him to sell all and come and follow him. The man had told Jesus that he had keep the commandments from his youth, but as we see he placed money as his god.



What my point is that you can't have "faith" and not have "works" nor can you have "works" [ie. good works] and not "faith".
For example the thief beside Jesus in that Jesus told him that day he would be in paradise with him. The thief would have no time to do any good works or follow any of the commandments. But he would have "work" as Jesus earlier spoke to the multiude about their faith in him as being work.

john 6:28-29
"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Titus 1:16
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate"

This here in Titus is what I was trying to show in the Matthew 25 passage. Those tought of themselves to be righteous for they asked the "Lord" when saw we thee an hungred....

Sorry for the confusion, but I really think it comes down to faith and works sometimes that hard to separate.

Thanks for that. Though I people who have out right denied Christ, do good works all the time. Its either because their religion tells them too or maybe they really want to help people. Orpah is a good example of this. She has done great works, but has denied Christ.
I don't expect to see her in Heaven..unless of course she repents and comes to Christ.

God bless

newinchrist4now
Jun 29th 2010, 10:50 PM
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast

I just want to know before I answer your questions.

God bless

May I? This is referring to the law not god works

Beckrl
Jun 29th 2010, 11:09 PM
Are you saying works save us? Yes or no? Well, It want let me reply with an simple, No, so No.

James 2:14 but if an man say he has faith, and no works then can he just say he has faith will that save him?!

chad
Jun 30th 2010, 02:08 AM
For me the question would be, even though our faith maybe dead, through no deeds/works - does that nulify our salvation. I would answer no.

It just means our faith is ineffective, the NIV describes it as useless and the KJV described the faith as through it were dead. I think the point James is trying to make is that faith without deeds is useless (In that our faith is useless). I don't think he is saying that faith without deeds - causes a person to loose thier salvation.

moonglow
Jun 30th 2010, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by moonglow

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast

I just want to know before I answer your questions.

God bless


May I? This is referring to the law not god works

I don't know how you figure that..it doesn't say law or laws..it says works. Further down in this chapter it talks about the law...but not in the first part of this. Come to think of it..I don't recall the law ever being referred too as works...

God bless

newinchrist4now
Jun 30th 2010, 04:20 AM
I don't know how you figure that..it doesn't say law or laws..it says works. Further down in this chapter it talks about the law...but not in the first part of this. Come to think of it..I don't recall the law ever being referred too as works...

God bless

The law is called works by Paul and we can get the jest of it in this verse because all over Paul is against the idea of the Law being unto salvation so it is not much of a stretch to see that particular verse as about works of the Law. As we can see in Romans Paul stresses the same thing as in Eph 2:8

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3%3A28&version=KJV&src=embed)

Works and Salvation are not two opposed things, Christ himself tells us that Works must be done in Matt 25:31-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-46&version=DRA&src=embed)

31And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

inn
Jun 30th 2010, 01:36 PM
Well, It want let me reply with an simple, No, so No.

James 2:14 but if an man say he has faith, and no works then can he just say he has faith will that save him?!

I'm glad you answer that works cannot save you. Yes , works are the natural expression of faith, I agree.

Firstfruits
Jun 30th 2010, 01:41 PM
If works cannot save us, can what we do affect our salvation?

Firstfruits

inn
Jun 30th 2010, 01:44 PM
If works cannot save us, can what we do affect our salvation?

Firstfruits

I can't think of any scripture which hasn't been mensioned in here already that say works can affect salvation. Can you?

Slug1
Jun 30th 2010, 02:59 PM
If works cannot save us, can what we do affect our salvation?

FirstfruitsMaybe if the question is more... what God "can't" do through us, can affect our salvation.

Firstfruits
Jun 30th 2010, 03:08 PM
I can't think of any scripture which hasn't been mensioned in here already that say works can affect salvation. Can you?

With the understanding that there are two types of works, good works or unrighteous works, knowing that before we we came to God we were slaves to do that which is unrighteous, if we continue as we were, in unrighteousness , are we saying this will not affect salvation?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 30th 2010, 03:10 PM
Maybe if the question is more... what God "can't" do through us, can affect our salvation.

Do we not have the resposibility to do that which is pleasing to God, to do that which is righteouss?

Firstfruits

Slug1
Jun 30th 2010, 04:27 PM
Do we not have the resposibility to do that which is pleasing to God, to do that which is righteouss?

FirstfruitsWell... if we allow God to do the work through us... the result(s) will be of God, thus pleasing, thus righteous.

MoreMercy
Jun 30th 2010, 04:43 PM
Do works save us ?

Works identify who you trust in, who you follow and who your Father is, amen.
If we have the good Father, then Father saves us through His lamb Christ Jesus, amen.
How simple is that ? Thank you merciful Father !:pp

moonglow
Jun 30th 2010, 05:15 PM
The law is called works by Paul and we can get the jest of it in this verse because all over Paul is against the idea of the Law being unto salvation so it is not much of a stretch to see that particular verse as about works of the Law. As we can see in Romans Paul stresses the same thing as in Eph 2:8

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3%3A28&version=KJV&src=embed)

Works and Salvation are not two opposed things, Christ himself tells us that Works must be done in Matt 25:31-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-46&version=DRA&src=embed)

31And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

But this makes no sense to say Paul says we are Not justified by works/laws, then you go on to say we have to do works. (if they are indeed one and the same..which I don't believe they are). If they are one in the same thing, then we shouldn't have to do any works at all because that would be following the law which is what you are saying and Paul says we are no longer bound too.

Anyway, the passage on the sheeps and goats like I explained to Sherry on another thread where she was concerned about possibly having to let dangerous strangers into her home in order to follow with these commands...its not even about that. Its not about works, its not about letting dangerous people into our homes...or even nonbelievers. Its about how we care for each other...the church! Who is the body of Christ...is Christ. Look at the wording carefully..Jesus says, "I" over and over again.

Maybe this bible commentary will help explain it:
http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=025

Verses 35, 36
For I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

This makes one's relationship to Christ the all-important consideration; and as he pointed out a moment later, that relationship turns altogether upon the treatment of his disciples. Just as in the case of Saul of Tarsus his persecution of the church amounted to his persecution of Christ (Acts 22:7), so, in all ages, the treatment of the Lord's followers shall be the basis of determining one's relationship to their Head, which is Christ. What is done to Christ's followers is done to him. What is done to his church is done to him. Those who think they find in these words of Jesus an excuse for making Christianity a mere matter of social charity, should look again. It is not the treatment of all the wretched and unfortunate of earth that shall make up the burden of the Christian's duty (though that must be allowed as desirable), but the treatment of "these my brethren," as Christ expressed it, that determines destiny (see Matthew 25:40).


Verses 37, 38
Then shall the righteous answer him saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? And when saw we thee sick or in prison, and came unto thee?

The surprise of the righteous is itself surprising. The element of surprise applies to both the saved and the unsaved, but the principle is stated with crystal clarity. "What we do to his, we do to him!" What an awful warning this contains for those who set at naught the Lord's true followers, who persecute, harass, mistreat, deny, or neglect them! The Lord is in the least of his followers. Their needs, their rights, and their requirements are the Lord's. To deny them is to deny him. In view of this, the principal part of every church's budget should be on command for the alleviation, not of the wicked world's abounding woes, but for the legitimate needs and requirements of God's people. That it is not usually so is a shame of modern Christianity.


Verses 39, 40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.

No thoughtful person can conclude that Jesus equated salvation with benevolence in the usual sense. It is not mere charity, but help of Christ's followers that is highlighted here. If this principle were more widely understood and accepted, it would revolutionize men's attitude toward the church. In the final essence, what men do to his church, they do to him. To neglect, flout, or dishonor the church is to do the same to Christ who is the head of the church. On the other hand, those who support and provide for the church and extend their concern and constant aid upon behalf of her poor and needy, do the same for Christ whose body is the church.

All we do on here is trash the 'church' which is basically trashing Christ and ourselves. Seems kind of stupid to be bad talking ourselves, yet we do it all the time. But of course its done as 'others' in mind and we think we are somehow above 'those false, misguided so called Christians' out there. The lesson in here and the rich man aren't even about works at all...it goes way beyond that. Christ was passionate about us! And He wants us to be passionate with each other...to care for those in our own churches that are in need. To neglect them...yet give to the food bank once a month to do our 'duty' and get our monthly quota of 'works' in , isn't going to pass the test with Him. This is beyond works. We are told to love each other! Care for them. Without this real abiding love for each other, how can we say we love Christ?

1 John 4:20
If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

God bless

newinchrist4now
Jun 30th 2010, 08:49 PM
But this makes no sense to say Paul says we are Not justified by works/laws, then you go on to say we have to do works. (if they are indeed one and the same..which I don't believe they are). If they are one in the same thing, then we shouldn't have to do any works at all because that would be following the law which is what you are saying and Paul says we are no longer bound too.

Works of the law is what the OT is full of and which we are not saved by. That does not mean that other works are not necessary though, those that are necessary are good works.


Anyway, the passage on the sheeps and goats like I explained to Sherry on another thread where she was concerned about possibly having to let dangerous strangers into her home in order to follow with these commands...its not even about that. Its not about works, its not about letting dangerous people into our homes...or even nonbelievers. Its about how we care for each other...the church! Who is the body of Christ...is Christ. Look at the wording carefully..Jesus says, "I" over and over again.

It is about works completely. His sheep do good works and the goats do not though they profess Christ without the works and faith we can not be saved at the end. As James through the Holy Spirit says:

What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

James 2:14
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A14&version=DRA&src=embed)
and

Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

James 2:19-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A19-24&version=DRA&src=embed)


All we do on here is trash the 'church' which is basically trashing Christ and ourselves. Seems kind of stupid to be bad talking ourselves, yet we do it all the time. But of course its done as 'others' in mind and we think we are somehow above 'those false, misguided so called Christians' out there. The lesson in here and the rich man aren't even about works at all...it goes way beyond that. Christ was passionate about us! And He wants us to be passionate with each other...to care for those in our own churches that are in need. To neglect them...yet give to the food bank once a month to do our 'duty' and get our monthly quota of 'works' in , isn't going to pass the test with Him. This is beyond works. We are told to love each other! Care for them. Without this real abiding love for each other, how can we say we love Christ?

It's not just the Church it is all people we are to do this to, Christ extends it to all in the previous verses I quoted:

Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

Matt 25:34-40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A34-40&version=DRA&src=embed)

Not just to our own, because anyone can do that even the heathen takes care of their own, it goes beyond that to everyone. When we help and do good works for another we are dong as to Christ and without such we will not be saved at the end.

Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Matt 25:41-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A41-46&version=DRA&src=embed)

Beckrl
Jun 30th 2010, 09:35 PM
If works cannot save us, can what we do affect our salvation?

Firstfruits

I think of 1 Timothy 5:8 Or the lack of doing...

chad
Jun 30th 2010, 10:10 PM
What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

There are some circumstances where faith alone will not save. The Bible clearly states that one must repent, believe and confess in order to be saved. So in that circumstance "faith alone - Belief in Jesus" is not enough. There must be a work of confession and repentance.

(Rom 10:9 NIV) That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (11) As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Demons believed that Jesus was the son of God, but were they saved. No. They knew thier fate even as they spoke to Jesus. They begged him not to torture them and send them to the Abyss (Pits of Hell).
Luke 4:33-35, Luke 8:27-36, Mt 8:8-33).

Tiffany Faith
Jun 30th 2010, 10:20 PM
I think what all this means is that you need faith in Jesus Christ to be saved and also repentance. Repent means to turn away from. So you need to accept Jesus CHrist as Lord and saviour and also turn away from your old life and sins. None of us can go without sin. It is impossible but we can strive to be like Christ.
For example, you CAN be a Christian and mess up and God will forgive you. Like if you have pre-marital sex and feel bad about it and turn away from it. God understands that in our Christian walk we will fall down.
However if you say that "hey I'm a Christian, I believe in Jesus" and then go home and beat your wife and kids and don't feel bad about it and keep doing it well then you're probably not really saved to begin with.

This doesn't mean you can never make mistakes and it doesn't mean you have to activily go out and earn your salvation. Once truly saved, always saved. no one can take you from the hands of God. Nothing you do can lose your salvation. If you truly believe in Jesus and have turned from your sin and are at least trying to grow in him but like right before you die someone makes you mad and you flip them off and call them a bad name and then get hit by a bus or something you'll still go to Heaven because God loves you and forgives you, and when you are truly saved you are born again into his Heavenly family and God will not abandon his children. Even if they are disobedient sometimes.

Thats what I think anyways.

Tiffany Faith
Jun 30th 2010, 10:23 PM
All in all we are saved by faith not works. But as Christians we will show our faith by following Christ's commandments.

MoreMercy
Jun 30th 2010, 10:24 PM
All in all we are saved by faith not works. But as Christians we will show our faith by following Christ's commandments.

Amen........ :pp

Butch5
Jul 1st 2010, 12:19 AM
If it is useless how can it save?


James 2:14-17 ( KJV )
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James asks a rhetorical question, can faith without works save? The answer is no, it cannot. Notice his words, faith without works is dead being "Alone." This is another way of saying a man is not saved by faith alone. James says this twice in this passage.

Beckrl
Jul 1st 2010, 12:46 AM
Is anyone getting the idea that you can't have one [faith] without the other [works]? :idea: :pp

Slug1
Jul 1st 2010, 12:51 AM
Is anyone getting the idea that you can't have one [faith] without the other [works]? :idea: :pp

"Getting" the idea... this fact has been clear the whole time ;)

Frecs
Jul 1st 2010, 12:54 AM
Is anyone getting the idea that you can't have one [faith] without the other [works]? :idea: :pp

Ding ding ding...I think we have a winner! Yes, indeedy. Two sides of the same salvation coin...couldn't you have said that about 160 posts ago???? ;)

Sirus
Jul 1st 2010, 01:03 AM
Seems everyone has been saying it for 160 posts.

Beckrl
Jul 1st 2010, 01:26 AM
"Getting" the idea... this fact has been clear the whole time ;)


Ding ding ding...I think we have a winner! Yes, indeedy. Two sides of the same salvation coin...couldn't you have said that about 160 posts ago???? ;)


Seems everyone has been saying it for 160 posts.

Yeah, I though that too.

moonglow
Jul 1st 2010, 03:00 AM
Works of the law is what the OT is full of and which we are not saved by. That does not mean that other works are not necessary though, those that are necessary are good works.



It is about works completely. His sheep do good works and the goats do not though they profess Christ without the works and faith we can not be saved at the end. As James through the Holy Spirit says:

What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

James 2:14
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A14&version=DRA&src=embed)
and

Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

James 2:19-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A19-24&version=DRA&src=embed)



It's not just the Church it is all people we are to do this to, Christ extends it to all in the previous verses I quoted:

Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

Matt 25:34-40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A34-40&version=DRA&src=embed)

Not just to our own, because anyone can do that even the heathen takes care of their own, it goes beyond that to everyone. When we help and do good works for another we are dong as to Christ and without such we will not be saved at the end.

Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Matt 25:41-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A41-46&version=DRA&src=embed)

I already covered the James passages on another post on here..and I agree we are to help others...but foremost our own...which seems to be neglected alot.

But it looks like from the last few posts we all agree.....:)

God bless

Sirus
Jul 1st 2010, 03:07 AM
Do works save?
No God does by faith, not of works!
So we are saved by faith alone?

-Yes (one side), works are because of our faith -work of faith and labor of love.
-No, (other side) faith without works is dead.

So since faith comes before work of faith, it's safe to say we are saved by faith alone. However, since a tree naturally bears fruit after its kind, if it does not naturally produce fruit after faith in God there is no faith is God. Great! Makes perfect sense. Glad we cleared that up in 5 posts.

It's wonderful to hash the matter out, but to do so with two sides thinking they are disagreeing is what I find amazing.

moonglow
Jul 1st 2010, 03:40 AM
Do works save?
No God does by faith, not of works!
So we are saved by faith alone?

-Yes (one side), works are because of our faith -work of faith and labor of love.
-No, (other side) faith without works is dead.

So since faith comes before work of faith, it's safe to say we are saved by faith alone. However, since a tree naturally bears fruit after its kind, if it does not naturally produce fruit after faith in God there is no faith is God. Great! Makes perfect sense. Glad we cleared that up in 5 posts.

It's wonderful to hash the matter out, but to do so with two sides thinking they are disagreeing is what I find amazing.

Don't be so harsh with us. We have to remember that 80% of communication comes through body language, tone of voice and facial expression...none of which we can have on here. And not all of us are very good at getting our thoughts across in the written language to start with..me included.

To me, many posts did truly sound like they said we are saved only through works. That was the OP's question to start with. And many posters really did sound like they were saying in one post that no works don't save us and in their next post saying yes works do save us. It was very confusing! And apparently it wasn't confusing just to me but everyone that kept posting! I am sorry you are discouraged with our imperfect communication styles...but most of the long threads on here are just that...us trying to communication with each other and sometimes it takes pages and pages to even figure out we are all saying the same thing...just in different ways.

Sirus
Jul 1st 2010, 04:43 AM
Actually I was being very nice.
I read those post as well and have no idea how people thought the other was saying what they were not.
It is impossible to say faith (which comes first) w/o works is dead, means we are saved by works.
Just as it is impossible to say works will not follow faith.
I have never heard anyone claim "saved by works" in 19 years. Not even Judiaser's that say we must keep the law make that claim. What makes you think anyone would here?
I do not remember any other time where "it takes pages and pages to even figure out we are all saying the same thing...just in different ways."

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2010, 07:47 AM
Well... if we allow God to do the work through us... the result(s) will be of God, thus pleasing, thus righteous.

But that still comes down to work, does it not?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2010, 08:38 AM
I think of 1 Timothy 5:8 Or the lack of doing...

That would be the same as in Matthew 25.

Mt 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Firstfruits

Slug1
Jul 1st 2010, 11:44 AM
But that still comes down to work, does it not?

FirstfruitsHow do you mean? As in... I will work to prove my faith in God?

Works are the result of faith... God gives us faith as a result of trusting in Him and accepting His Son as our Savior. Then, with that faith "HE" works through us and that work can be mighty, miracles etc. This "fruit" as a produce of allowing God to work through the faith we have in Him, GLORIFIES Him.

We all can do work... but if it's work "we" decide to do for God... even though many in ones church may highfive them and say that they are doing great work for God... this work will be limited to their ability because this is work of the flesh and in the end, did it glorify God if He didn't will this work to be done?

Have you ever or maybe someone you know say something like, "I do ALL this work for God but I'm not satisfied, do I need to do more?" They are not satisfied because none of the work is of God, it's all "them". God is receiving nothing, thus we are UNSATISFIED because HE is unsatisfied. I've seen it... a member of the church involved in just about every ministry because they're ON FIRE for God and at the end of the day they go home wondering why they seem so unhappy and not full of joy in their work.

They need to STOP and allow God to tell them what He wants them to do and they will be satisfied being the door greeter at church because if this is God's will for them, He will produce the fruit that glorifies Him through them as they smile and say God Bless you to everyone who enters the church. All the other ministries may produce fruit but if it was not God's will for them to be involved in all these other ministries, then all they did was go through a motion.

Butch posted great scripture a few posts ago. Imagine a new Christian accepting Christ and then just sitting in the pew for the rest of their life. Not lifting a finger once and allowing God to do something with the faith that they were given the moment they accepted Christ. We can go back to the John 15:1-7 scripture to find out what happens. We can read through the parable of the Barren Fig Tree to have an example of this as well. Anyway, when you put all the scripture from James, John, an Luke together... if a person does nothing and this nothing is ALLOWING God to work through them... that faith He gave them, becomes dead. Based on all that other supporting scripture... this "dead" faith, is NOT gonna get them to live everlasting with God. It will NOT save them.


But that still comes down to work, does it not?

Works we do... NO. Works that God DOES through us... YES!

Tiffany Faith
Jul 1st 2010, 12:45 PM
Works do not mean going out and doing good deeds. I means if you see a man who's hungry and you have food, give him something to eat, because you can't say that you're a Christian and not care about anyone but yourself. But if you are truly saved and you love Jesus then you will want to display your faith.
And again it doesn't mean you can't mess up. Once you are truly saved nothing you do can take you from the hand of God. When you are born again you are born into His family and God doesn't abandon His children. Even if we are disobidient sometimes.

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2010, 12:53 PM
How do you mean? As in... I will work to prove my faith in God?

Works are the result of faith... God gives us faith as a result of trusting in Him and accepting His Son as our Savior. Then, with that faith "HE" works through us and that work can be mighty, miracles etc. This "fruit" as a produce of allowing God to work through the faith we have in Him, GLORIFIES Him.

We all can do work... but if it's work "we" decide to do for God... even though many in ones church may highfive them and say that they are doing great work for God... this work will be limited to their ability because this is work of the flesh and in the end, did it glorify God if He didn't will this work to be done?

Have you ever or maybe someone you know say something like, "I do ALL this work for God but I'm not satisfied, do I need to do more?" They are not satisfied because none of the work is of God, it's all "them". God is receiving nothing, thus we are UNSATISFIED because HE is unsatisfied. I've seen it... a member of the church involved in just about every ministry because they're ON FIRE for God and at the end of the day they go home wondering why they seem so unhappy and not full of joy in their work.

They need to STOP and allow God to tell them what He wants them to do and they will be satisfied being the door greeter at church because if this is God's will for them, He will produce the fruit that glorifies Him through them as they smile and say God Bless you to everyone who enters the church. All the other ministries may produce fruit but if it was not God's will for them to be involved in all these other ministries, then all they did was go through a motion.

Butch posted great scripture a few posts ago. Imagine a new Christian accepting Christ and then just sitting in the pew for the rest of their life. Not lifting a finger once and allowing God to do something with the faith that they were given the moment they accepted Christ. We can go back to the John 15:1-7 scripture to find out what happens. We can read through the parable of the Barren Fig Tree to have an example of this as well. Anyway, when you put all the scripture from James, John, an Luke together... if a person does nothing and this nothing is ALLOWING God to work through them... that faith He gave them, becomes dead. Based on all that other supporting scripture... this "dead" faith, is NOT gonna get them to live everlasting with God. It will NOT save them.



Works we do... NO. Works that God DOES through us... YES!

According to the following we are to be doers of the work not only hearers, and by doing this we shall be blessed, so if it is God that is doing them through us why should we be blessed?

James 1:22-25
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2010, 12:55 PM
Works do not mean going out and doing good deeds. I means if you see a man who's hungry and you have food, give him something to eat, because you can't say that you're a Christian and not care about anyone but yourself. But if you are truly saved and you love Jesus then you will want to display your faith.
And again it doesn't mean you can't mess up. Once you are truly saved nothing you do can take you from the hand of God. When you are born again you are born into His family and God doesn't abandon His children. Even if we are disobidient sometimes.

Are you saying that serving Satan does not take us from the hand of God?

Firstfruits

Tiffany Faith
Jul 1st 2010, 01:02 PM
If you are truly saved you wont worship satan. Plain and simple.

Slug1
Jul 1st 2010, 01:14 PM
According to the following we are to be doers of the work not only hearers, and by doing this we shall be blessed, so if it is God that is doing them through us why should we be blessed?

James 1:22-25
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

FirstfruitsGod working through us is a blessing in itself. At least for me I feel this way. Plus... blessed in his deed :hmm: I know that we build our treasure in heaven so that scripture about "will be" blessed. Can also be in referrence of that as well. Something to seek God about.

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2010, 01:28 PM
If you are truly saved you wont worship satan. Plain and simple.


Sin is serving Satan since since all sin is of Satan.

1 Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2010, 01:32 PM
God working through us is a blessing in itself. At least for me I feel this way. Plus... blessed in his deed :hmm: I know that we build our treasure in heaven so that scripture about "will be" blessed. Can also be in referrence of that as well. Something to seek God about.

If we choose not to do the will of God, or do not allow God to work through us will God force us to work?

Firstfruits

Tiffany Faith
Jul 1st 2010, 01:33 PM
Jesus's death on the cross has freed us from the chains of sin. What exactly do you disagree with me on firstfruits?

Slug1
Jul 1st 2010, 01:34 PM
If we choose not to do the will of God, or do not allow God to work through us will God force us to work?

FirstfruitsGreat question... you think worthy of it's own thread?

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2010, 02:20 PM
Jesus's death on the cross has freed us from the chains of sin. What exactly do you disagree with me on firstfruits?

Does that mean that we will not sin or do works of Satan/unrighteousness?

Fristfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2010, 02:25 PM
Great question... you think worthy of it's own thread?

Thanks, I suppose it could work as a thread, are you offering?

Firstfruits

Slug1
Jul 1st 2010, 02:41 PM
Thanks, I suppose it could work as a thread, are you offering?

FirstfruitsI'll participate....

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2010, 02:52 PM
I'll participate....

Ok then I will start it, and let us see what happens.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Tiffany Faith
Jul 1st 2010, 04:35 PM
No you are still capable of sin but God forgives you. Like if your kids die and you get hooked on painkillers or something, GOd will forgive you, not condemn you to hell. Or if someone makes you mad and you cuss at them right before a bus hits you then you're not going to go to hell. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. But Christ's blood redeems us
Here I have a good example I think (man you are really making me think about this one firstfruits LOL!)
Ok so like if you say your a Christian but spend all your money on yourself, never help anyone, live a life of non-repentance than you aren't probably really saved because part of salvation is turning away from your old life... BUT if you get saved there will be a change in your heart and the way you think and I believe thatas the Holy Spirit. So you will want to help others because you will feel lead to do that. I don't think you have to spend every waking minute being nice to everyone, Although WE SHOULD DO THAT, it is just not possible. I think God wants us to try our best to be like him and to make an actual effort to turn away from our old lives and when we slip up he forgives us and helps us get back up on our feet. :)

Frecs
Jul 1st 2010, 06:29 PM
(man you are really making me think about this one firstfruits LOL!)

That is pretty much his goal, me thinks. ;)

Tiffany Faith
Jul 1st 2010, 06:35 PM
Do you think I answered his question? lol

Beckrl
Jul 1st 2010, 07:06 PM
Do works save?
No God does by faith, not of works!
So we are saved by faith alone?

-Yes (one side), works are because of our faith -work of faith and labor of love.
-No, (other side) faith without works is dead.

So since faith comes before work of faith, it's safe to say we are saved by faith alone. However, since a tree naturally bears fruit after its kind, if it does not naturally produce fruit after faith in God there is no faith is God. Great! Makes perfect sense. Glad we cleared that up in 5 posts.

It's wonderful to hash the matter out, but to do so with two sides thinking they are disagreeing is what I find amazing.

Two sides of the same coin, wait thats been said before too ;)

Frecs
Jul 1st 2010, 07:14 PM
Do you think I answered his question? lol

Well, now THAT is the million dollar question! See, when you answer one question, he'll just pop up with another one and then another....

Anyway, you did good, Grasshopper. :) The good thing about trying to answer FF's questions, is that it is a good way to see if you understand the concepts you hear in church all the time. A lot of people hear terms and doctrines and they think they understand them but they can't explain them. You don't really understand unless you can explain it. Keep it up, Grasshopper... :D

Tiffany Faith
Jul 1st 2010, 07:17 PM
Do you think some people on here just like to argue and make people upset? I certainly think so. It's like no matter what the topic is or how much sense it makes or how many people agree with it they will purposely take the opposing view just to get a rise out of people. I hate that. Those kinds of people should be into politics. LOL!

Frecs
Jul 1st 2010, 08:09 PM
Do you think some people on here just like to argue and make people upset? I certainly think so. It's like no matter what the topic is or how much sense it makes or how many people agree with it they will purposely take the opposing view just to get a rise out of people. I hate that. Those kinds of people should be into politics. LOL!

Oh, there are some. ;) MOST just like to discuss and by taking the opposing view it makes for a better discussion than if everyone is in agreement. Also, it depends on which forum you are posting in. This one, Bible Chat, is heavy on "debate" and they like folks to use lots of scripture to support their position. OTOH, "Growing in Christ" is for young-in-the-faith folks who want to discuss faith and scripture with less "debating". It's a "kinder-gentler" forum. So, pick your level of tolerance for debate.

Now, since this IS Bible Chat:

2Sa 19:9 Throughout the tribes of Israel, the people were all arguing with each other, saying, "The king delivered us from the hand of our enemies; he is the one who rescued us from the hand of the Philistines. But now he has fled the country because of Absalom;
Job 16:3 Will your long-winded speeches never end? What ails you that you keep on arguing?
Mar 9:14 When they came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them and the teachers of the law arguing with them.
Mar 9:16 "What are you arguing with them about?" he asked.
Mar 9:33 They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you arguing about on the road?"
Act 19:8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.
Act 24:12 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city.
Phl 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing,

karenoka27
Jul 1st 2010, 09:11 PM
We are not saved by works. But we are judged according to our works. The unsaved are punished according to their wickedness; the saved are rewarded according to their righteousness.

Amen! (tried to rep you, but must pass some around first! ;) )

I just started a thread asking about something similar because I was reading in Galatians 3:1-"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you..." and Paul goes on to talking about them adding to their faith...works to be saved.
Yes I understand we do works after salvation, but I can't understand why some think we must work to keep our salvation or to attain it? Why then did Christ die?

newinchrist4now
Jul 1st 2010, 09:18 PM
Amen! (tried to rep you, but must pass some around first! ;) )

I just started a thread asking about something similar because I was reading in Galatians 3:1-"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you..." and Paul goes on to talking about them adding to their faith...works to be saved.
Yes I understand we do works after salvation, but I can't understand why some think we must work to keep our salvation or to attain it? Why then did Christ die?

To bridge the gap, not to guarantee when we give mere assent that we have no worries and were in. Even the demons believe but they are not saved, Scripture never says just believe and that's it. Indeed Scripture does say that Faith and Works go hand in hand

chad
Jul 1st 2010, 10:27 PM
Fruits are a result of the work that God does in us (Fruits of the spirit). Our works are a result of the outflowing of what God has done in us and they appear in good works.

When we live by the spirit and we obey God, from that come our good works?

newinchrist4now
Jul 1st 2010, 10:30 PM
What about those who do not have Christ but still do good works. Good works can't just flow from receiving Christ nor do I believe Scriptures says that anywhere

chad
Jul 1st 2010, 10:38 PM
I'm talking about something different. People who are not christians can do what we consider good works, such as feeding the poor etc...

I'm talking about the good works that come through obedience of living life through the spirit.



What about those who do not have Christ but still do good works. Good works can't just flow from receiving Christ nor do I believe Scriptures says that anywhere

newinchrist4now
Jul 1st 2010, 10:40 PM
The works are the same though. I reckon what I am trying to say is that works do not specifically come because we profess Christ, even Christ said to do certain things never mentioning that because we are Christians we would all of a sudden want to do them. The implication from the verses is that both sides were followers of Christ and one side did good works and believed and were welcomed in, the other side only believed but never did works and were damned.


34Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee?
39Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?
40And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.
43I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
44Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee?
45Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.



Matt 25:34-46

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2010, 12:00 AM
The works are the same though. I reckon what I am trying to say is that works do not specifically come because we profess Christ, even Christ said to do certain things never mentioning that because we are Christians we would all of a sudden want to do them. The implication from the verses is that both sides were followers of Christ and one side did good works and believed and were welcomed in, the other side only believed but never did works and were damned.


34Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee?
39Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?
40And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.
43I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
44Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee?
45Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.



Matt 25:34-46....and you started out so good...what happened?
Where do you get this implication (in bold)? These have no clue! They are His mother and brother because they do the will of the Father but that doesn't make them born again believers who do know that what they do they do unto Him.

newinchrist4now
Jul 2nd 2010, 12:31 AM
....and you started out so good...what happened?
Where do you get this implication (in bold)? These have no clue! They are His mother and brother because they do the will of the Father but that doesn't make them born again believers who do know that what they do they do unto Him.

I believe the implication is they are and because they didn't marry there faith with works they were cast out. They knew they just didnt do it

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2010, 12:32 AM
I asked where you get this implication. I already knew you believed the implication existed.

chad
Jul 2nd 2010, 12:39 AM
Hi newinchrist4now,

What i'm talking about is the works we do for God, that come as a result of God doing a work in us. It is that work in us, that motivates us to do good works. (For example, Gods love in us, motivates us to want to share the gospel, becuase of the love God has installed in us. It is through that love we have compassion for others and we want to go out and share the word of God with them.) That would be just one example, there are many different kinds of works we can do.


[QUOTE=newinchrist4now;2444864]The works are the same though. I reckon what I am trying to say is that works do not specifically come because we profess Christ, even Christ said to do certain things never mentioning that because we are Christians we would all of a sudden want to do them.

newinchrist4now
Jul 2nd 2010, 12:40 AM
I asked where you get this implication. I already knew you believed the implication existed.

From what I posted and James and Paul :)

newinchrist4now
Jul 2nd 2010, 12:41 AM
Hi newinchrist4now,

What i'm talking about is the works we do for God, that come as a result of God doing a work in us. It is that work in us, that motivates us to do good works. (For example, Gods love in us, motivates us to want to share the gospel, becuase of the love God has installed in us. It is through that love we have compassion for others and we want to go out and share the word of God with them.) That would be just one example, there are many different kinds of works we can do.


.

Okay, me thinks I understand now :)

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2010, 12:47 AM
Hi newinchrist4now,

What i'm talking about is the works we do for God, that come as a result of God doing a work in us. It is that work in us, that motivates us to do good works. (For example, Gods love in us, motivates us to want to share the gospel, becuase of the love God has installed in us. It is through that love we have compassion for others and we want to go out and share the word of God with them.) That would be just one example, there are many different kinds of works we can do.Yes but it is no different for those who are born knowing God and the truth and hear Him. It doesn't mean they do not sin/have sin, but the Father had some that were His that He gave to Jesus. God has always had some that are His, always being the God of Jew (from Gentile) and Gentile. It doesn't mean any have not followed the god and spirit of this world and transgressed the law of conscience, but it does mean that many do what they do because they believe in a creator and hear the Father. That is who Mat 25 is talking about. Not born again believers that are caught up in the previous chapter.

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2010, 12:49 AM
From what I posted and James and Paul :)Where does James and Paul talk about people doing to Jesus and not knowing it?

chad
Jul 2nd 2010, 12:52 AM
Ummm. I would just like to point out the my post #205 does not refer to Mt 25 and I was not refering to that scripture.



Yes but it is no different for those who are born knowing God and the truth and are hear Him. It doesn't mean they do not sin/have sin, but the Father had some that were His that He gave to Jesus. God has always had some that are His, always being the God of Jew (from Gentile) and Gentile. It doesn't mean any have not followed the god and spirit of this world and transgressed the law of conscience, but it does mean that many do what they do because they believe in a creator and hear the Father. That is who Mat 25 is talking about. Not born again believers that are caught up in the previous chapter.

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2010, 01:00 AM
I know but you were discussing with NIC4N who did.

newinchrist4now
Jul 2nd 2010, 01:21 AM
Where does James and Paul talk about people doing to Jesus and not knowing it?

All over works are mentioned in conjunction with Salvation.

EDITED TO REMOVE LINK

Butch5
Jul 2nd 2010, 01:37 AM
Amen! (tried to rep you, but must pass some around first! ;) )

I just started a thread asking about something similar because I was reading in Galatians 3:1-"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you..." and Paul goes on to talking about them adding to their faith...works to be saved.
Yes I understand we do works after salvation, but I can't understand why some think we must work to keep our salvation or to attain it? Why then did Christ die?

He died to redeem mankind from the kingdom of darkness. To be saved in the end we must do as Jesus said, "he who endures to the end shall be saved" The Scriptures are replete with the necessity of good works that is why "Some" say we must do them to keep or attain salvation at the end.

chad
Jul 2nd 2010, 02:01 AM
NIC4N did, but I never.


I know but you were discussing with NIC4N who did.

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2010, 02:52 AM
NIC4N did, but I never.You not agreeing and seeing does not change anything. You mentioned works that result for the same reason the works in Mat 25 did, which is why NIC4N mentioned the passage. Before being born again, what makes us think something is good to do? What motivates us to do it?

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2010, 02:56 AM
All over works are mentioned in conjunction with Salvation.Salvation? Where in the passage you quoted in Mat 25?
What does that have to do with knowing they are doing them to Jesus when the text clearly says they did not?
Since Jesus says they do not know, why do you think they do?
What would be the opposite of the rejection of the truth in Romans 1? What does Romans 2 say?

newinchrist4now
Jul 2nd 2010, 03:34 AM
Salvation? Where in the passage you quoted in Mat 25?

All over it


What does that have to do with knowing they are doing them to Jesus when the text clearly says they did not?

I consider they were Christians who didn't do the proper works, therefore they were damned


Since Jesus says they do not know, why do you think they do?

I don't see anywhere in my translation where it says such a thing.


What would be the opposite of the rejection of the truth in Romans 1? What does Romans 2 say?

I'm not following you here

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2010, 03:57 AM
All over it........is not showing me where.


I consider they were Christians who didn't do the proper works, therefore they were damned it says they did do the proper works (translation you posted)

4Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee?
39Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?
40And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.


I don't see anywhere in my translation where it says such a thing. (translation you posted)

4Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee?
39Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?
40And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.


I'm not following you hereWhat is there to follow?
What would be the opposite of the rejection of the truth in Romans 1?
.......read of those that reject the truth in Romans 1 and give me a description of the opposite.

newinchrist4now
Jul 2nd 2010, 04:46 AM
Nowhere does it say they didn't know, so they were believers. In fact the whole chapter deals with believers. I still don't get you, I just know works go together with faith. Faith alone is not enough

chad
Jul 2nd 2010, 05:42 AM
My post #205 was a statement that I made. It was not related to Mt 25. NIC4N introduced this in thier reply to me. My answer was not addressing Mt 25, and there was a bit of confusion, as it looked like we had different understandings of what I was trying to say.


You not agreeing and seeing does not change anything. You mentioned works that result for the same reason the works in Mat 25 did, which is why NIC4N mentioned the passage. Before being born again, what makes us think something is good to do? What motivates us to do it?

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 08:34 AM
No you are still capable of sin but God forgives you. Like if your kids die and you get hooked on painkillers or something, GOd will forgive you, not condemn you to hell. Or if someone makes you mad and you cuss at them right before a bus hits you then you're not going to go to hell. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. But Christ's blood redeems us
Here I have a good example I think (man you are really making me think about this one firstfruits LOL!)
Ok so like if you say your a Christian but spend all your money on yourself, never help anyone, live a life of non-repentance than you aren't probably really saved because part of salvation is turning away from your old life... BUT if you get saved there will be a change in your heart and the way you think and I believe thatas the Holy Spirit. So you will want to help others because you will feel lead to do that. I don't think you have to spend every waking minute being nice to everyone, Although WE SHOULD DO THAT, it is just not possible. I think God wants us to try our best to be like him and to make an actual effort to turn away from our old lives and when we slip up he forgives us and helps us get back up on our feet. :)

Thank you Tiffany Faith,

I appreciate you for taking time to reply, and I have noted the points you have made. I agree that the blood of Christ redeems us from sin and that God will forgive us, but everyone that sins has a resposibility to confess/repent before our sins are forgiven. If God forgave our sins without the need to confess/repent then all men should be saved unless God does not want to save them.

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If we have unrighteousness we are not of God.

Thanks again, and God bless you.

Firstfruits

Frecs
Jul 2nd 2010, 11:50 AM
Thank you Tiffany Faith,

I appreciate you for taking time to reply, and I have noted the points you have made. I agree that the blood of Christ redeems us from sin and that God will forgive us, but everyone that sins has a resposibility to confess/repent before our sins are forgiven. If God forgave our sins without the need to confess/repent then all men should be saved unless God does not want to save them.

If we have unrighteousness we are not of God.

Thanks again, and God bless you.

Firstfruits

Should we, Christians, repent when we realize we have sinned? Absolutely. If we die before having that opportunity, are we eternally damned because we did not repent? NO.

Hbr 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 01:11 PM
Should we, Christians, repent when we realize we have sinned? Absolutely. If we die before having that opportunity, are we eternally damned because we did not repent? NO.

Hbr 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

According to which scripture, since no sin can enter Heaven and all sin will be punished if not forgiven.

If we die and we are not ready we are just like the five foolish virgins.

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 2nd 2010, 01:16 PM
According to which scripture, since no sin can enter Heaven and all sin will be punished if not forgiven.

If we die and we are not ready we are just like the five foolish virgins.

Firstfruits
How is one "ready" to meet God Almighty?

Frecs
Jul 2nd 2010, 01:21 PM
According to which scripture, since no sin can enter Heaven and all sin will be punished if not forgiven.

If we die and we are not ready we are just like the five foolish virgins.

Firstfruits

Read chapter 10 of Hebrews.

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 01:44 PM
How is one "ready" to meet God Almighty?

According to the following it would be doing the will of God, which is that which is done in righteousness.

Lk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

I hope these scriptures are helpful.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 01:51 PM
Read chapter 10 of Hebrews.

So do you believe that Jesus forgives sins not yet committed or is it sins that are past that are forgiven?

To provoke unto love and good works is contrary to sin is it not. if you know the truth and you sin then you have trodden underfoot the Son of God, how can we escape the punishment?

Firstfruits

Frecs
Jul 2nd 2010, 02:02 PM
So do you believe that Jesus forgives sins not yet committed or is it sins that are past that are forgiven?

To provoke unto love and good works is contrary to sin is it not. if you know the truth and you sin then you have trodden underfoot the Son of God, how can we escape the punshment?

Firstfruits

The blood of Jesus is different from the blood of sheep and goats. The blood of sheep and goats could not take away sin...thus the need for perpetual sacrifice. Read through Leviticus and you see the need for copious sacrifices because the shed blood of animals could only cover incompletely. Annually, the priest would enter the Holy of Holiest to make sacrifice for the Jews but he had no place to sit--why? because his work was never done...there would always be need for more sacrifice and more blood to be shed. Jesus was different. His blood DOES cover once and for all. He sits. It's finished.

Now, before you ask. No, that does not mean that we don't have to repent and accept Jesus to be saved. We must acknowledge our need for a Savior, acknowledge His All Sufficiency to be that Savior, and ask Him to be that Savior. THEN, our sins -- past, current, and future -- are under the blood...HIS blood.

And, before you ask. No, that does not mean that we therefore have a free ride to sin at will. We must continue to "run the race" as Paul put it...we must continue to seek to walk with Christ, to live holy lives (even though we are wholy incapible of achieving that goal this side of heaven). We are now His children. A people set apart, a royal priesthood. As a royal priesthood, we represent our God and Father and minister to those in need. We must be busy about the Father's business but we can do so knowing that some sin we didn't realize we did or didn't have time to repent of isn't going to send us to hell.

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 03:16 PM
The blood of Jesus is different from the blood of sheep and goats. The blood of sheep and goats could not take away sin...thus the need for perpetual sacrifice. Read through Leviticus and you see the need for copious sacrifices because the shed blood of animals could only cover incompletely. Annually, the priest would enter the Holy of Holiest to make sacrifice for the Jews but he had no place to sit--why? because his work was never done...there would always be need for more sacrifice and more blood to be shed. Jesus was different. His blood DOES cover once and for all. He sits. It's finished.

Now, before you ask. No, that does not mean that we don't have to repent and accept Jesus to be saved. We must acknowledge our need for a Savior, acknowledge His All Sufficiency to be that Savior, and ask Him to be that Savior. THEN, our sins -- past, current, and future -- are under the blood...HIS blood.

And, before you ask. No, that does not mean that we therefore have a free ride to sin at will. We must continue to "run the race" as Paul put it...we must continue to seek to walk with Christ, to live holy lives (even though we are wholy incapible of achieving that goal this side of heaven). We are now His children. A people set apart, a royal priesthood. As a royal priesthood, we represent our God and Father and minister to those in need. We must be busy about the Father's business but we can do so knowing that some sin we didn't realize we did or didn't have time to repent of isn't going to send us to hell.

According to the following belonging to God depends on whether we do righteousness or unrighteousness, is that not what you believe?

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Firstfruits

Frecs
Jul 2nd 2010, 03:35 PM
According to the following belonging to God depends on whether we do righteousness or unrighteousness, is that not what you believe?

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Firstfruits

You take verses out of context, FF. We've been down this rabbit trail over and over and over again. I've answered your question a dozen times. I'm going to start putting numbers on the answers and just answering you with "Number 3" or "Number 7"....would save me from getting carpal tunnel....

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 03:42 PM
You take verses out of context, FF. We've been down this rabbit trail over and over and over again. I've answered your question a dozen times. I'm going to start putting numbers on the answers and just answering you with "Number 3" or "Number 7"....would save me from getting carpal tunnel....

If you believe they are not in context then please put this one in context.

1 Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Tell me if the others are true or false.

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Do I accept what you have said or do I accept that which is written, or are we just fooling ourselves that we belong to God?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 03:52 PM
You take verses out of context, FF. We've been down this rabbit trail over and over and over again. I've answered your question a dozen times. I'm going to start putting numbers on the answers and just answering you with "Number 3" or "Number 7"....would save me from getting carpal tunnel....

Please tell me from the full text how the verses highlighted would change the meaning if by it self?

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Firstfruits

Tiffany Faith
Jul 2nd 2010, 04:23 PM
A man dies and goes to heaven. St. Peter meets him at the pearly gates.

St. Peter says, "Here's how it works. You need 100 points to make it into heaven. You tell me all the good things you've done, and I give you a certain number of points for each item, depending on how good it was. When you reach 100 points, you get in."

"Okay" the man says, "I attended church every Sunday"
"That's good, says St. Peter, " that's worth two points"

"Two points?" he says. "Well, I gave 10% of all my earnings to the church"
"Well, let's see," answers Peter, "that's worth another 2 points. Did you do anything else?"

"Two points? Golly. How about this: I started a soup kitchen in my city and worked in a shelter for homeless veterans."
"Fantastic, that's certainly worth a point, " he says.

"hmmm...," the man says, "I was married to the same woman for 50 years and never cheated on her, even in my heart."
"That's wonderful," says St. Peter, "that's worth three points!"

"THREE POINTS!!" the man cries, "At this rate the only way I get into heaven is by the grace of God!"

"Come on in!"

Frecs
Jul 2nd 2010, 04:35 PM
If you believe they are not in context then please put this one in context.

1 Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Tell me if the others are true or false.

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Do I accept what you have said or do I accept that which is written, or are we just fooling ourselves that we belong to God?

Firstfruits

Number 8.3!

The Error of Christian Perfectionism
CP0609 (http://www.equip.org/perspectives/the-error-of-perfectionism)

Christian Perfectionism- Introduction
Some people actually claim that they have reached a state in the Christian life where they just don't sin anymore. Wait a minute, doesn't the Bible say that if we actually think something like this we are deceiving ourselves and are, in fact, calling God a liar?

Christian Perfectionism- Not Biblical
Christian perfectionism is not biblical doctrine. 1 John 1:8 clearly states: "If we claim to be without sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." While willful sin ought not to characterize our life, sin will remain a part of human experience until we lay aside our physical body at death (Rom. 7). In fact, the wisest man who ever lived (Solomon) said: "Who can say, I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?"

Christian Perfectionism- A Narrow Definition of Sin
Many who believe that they have reached sinless perfection actually have a very narrow and limited view of sin. Some actually argue that only deliberate disobedience to God's will is actually sin. However, this is not the way the Bible describes sin at all. Sin can be committed in thought, word, and deed, and, of course, there are sins of commission as well as omission. To be truly sinless means that you love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and, of course, that you love your neighbor as well. To be perfect in a biblical sense means that you mirror the very image of Jesus Christ Himself. This will take place in heaven, but certainly not here on earth.

Christian Perfectionism- Justified, but not Yet Perfect
While the Christian is never intrinsically perfect in this life (or completely sanctified), we have been justified because of the work of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). So positionally we're declared righteous (in Christ) though practically we still wrestle with sin. Our confidence, however, is that we are considered perfect in the sight of God because we are united with the Lord Jesus Christ through faith.

Christian Perfectionism- Closeness to God Brings Awareness of Sin
Look at the people in the Bible. When they were really close to God, they didn't claim to be sinless. Instead, they became increasingly aware of their sin (Isa. 6:5; Dan. 9:4-19; Eph. 3:8). Paul, of course, cried out: "O wretched man that I am." According to R. C. Sproul, the doctrine of sinless perfection is, in fact, perfect error!


We seek to live holy lives, not to put God in our debt, but merely to demonstrate gratitude for His unmerited love.

Tiffany Faith
Jul 2nd 2010, 04:37 PM
Did anyone read my joke? lol

Frecs
Jul 2nd 2010, 04:39 PM
Did anyone read my joke? lol

Yep. I thought it was a good one. :D

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 06:02 PM
Number 8.3!

The Error of Christian Perfectionism
CP0609 (http://www.equip.org/perspectives/the-error-of-perfectionism)

Christian Perfectionism- Introduction
Some people actually claim that they have reached a state in the Christian life where they just don't sin anymore. Wait a minute, doesn't the Bible say that if we actually think something like this we are deceiving ourselves and are, in fact, calling God a liar?

Christian Perfectionism- Not Biblical
Christian perfectionism is not biblical doctrine. 1 John 1:8 clearly states: "If we claim to be without sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." While willful sin ought not to characterize our life, sin will remain a part of human experience until we lay aside our physical body at death (Rom. 7). In fact, the wisest man who ever lived (Solomon) said: "Who can say, I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?"

Christian Perfectionism- A Narrow Definition of Sin
Many who believe that they have reached sinless perfection actually have a very narrow and limited view of sin. Some actually argue that only deliberate disobedience to God's will is actually sin. However, this is not the way the Bible describes sin at all. Sin can be committed in thought, word, and deed, and, of course, there are sins of commission as well as omission. To be truly sinless means that you love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and, of course, that you love your neighbor as well. To be perfect in a biblical sense means that you mirror the very image of Jesus Christ Himself. This will take place in heaven, but certainly not here on earth.

Christian Perfectionism- Justified, but not Yet Perfect
While the Christian is never intrinsically perfect in this life (or completely sanctified), we have been justified because of the work of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). So positionally we're declared righteous (in Christ) though practically we still wrestle with sin. Our confidence, however, is that we are considered perfect in the sight of God because we are united with the Lord Jesus Christ through faith.

Christian Perfectionism- Closeness to God Brings Awareness of Sin
Look at the people in the Bible. When they were really close to God, they didn't claim to be sinless. Instead, they became increasingly aware of their sin (Isa. 6:5; Dan. 9:4-19; Eph. 3:8). Paul, of course, cried out: "O wretched man that I am." According to R. C. Sproul, the doctrine of sinless perfection is, in fact, perfect error!


We seek to live holy lives, not to put God in our debt, but merely to demonstrate gratitude for His unmerited love.

I notice that you only posted one scripture, but no scriptures refuting What John wrote. Do you have any scriptures that teach contrary to the scriptures I have posted?

Is this scripture false, meaning Johns teaching is false?

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Firstfruits

Frecs
Jul 2nd 2010, 06:09 PM
I notice that you only posted one scripture, but no scriptures refuting What John wrote. Do you have any scriptures that teach contrary to the scriptures I have posted?

Is this scripture false, meaning Johns teaching is false?

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Firstfruits

You didn't read it....there is more than one scripture in there....here, I'll help you...

1 John 1:8; Rom. 7; 2 Cor. 5:21; Isa. 6:5; Dan. 9:4-19; Eph. 3:8

No, 1 John isn't false teaching. But, you can't read 1 John in a vaccum...you must look at the greater context of scripture. The few verses you quote are not the only one's teaching on sin and righteousness but you treat them as the end all and do all of the teaching on this subject. Instead of using a penlight, you need to be using a floodlight. :)

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 06:10 PM
A man dies and goes to heaven. St. Peter meets him at the pearly gates.

St. Peter says, "Here's how it works. You need 100 points to make it into heaven. You tell me all the good things you've done, and I give you a certain number of points for each item, depending on how good it was. When you reach 100 points, you get in."

"Okay" the man says, "I attended church every Sunday"
"That's good, says St. Peter, " that's worth two points"

"Two points?" he says. "Well, I gave 10% of all my earnings to the church"
"Well, let's see," answers Peter, "that's worth another 2 points. Did you do anything else?"

"Two points? Golly. How about this: I started a soup kitchen in my city and worked in a shelter for homeless veterans."
"Fantastic, that's certainly worth a point, " he says.

"hmmm...," the man says, "I was married to the same woman for 50 years and never cheated on her, even in my heart."
"That's wonderful," says St. Peter, "that's worth three points!"

"THREE POINTS!!" the man cries, "At this rate the only way I get into heaven is by the grace of God!"

"Come on in!"

Here is the problem unless Jesus has changed Jesus said that no unrighteous person shall enter Heaven, and we do not seem to believe him.

Firstfruits

Frecs
Jul 2nd 2010, 06:11 PM
Here is the problem unless Jesus has changed Jesus said that no unrighteous person shall enter Heaven, and we do not seem to believe him.

Firstfruits

FF, are you righteous? based on what?

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2010, 06:20 PM
FF, are you righteous? based on what?

The same way we are all supposed to be, but as you believe this is not the true meaning you will not accept it, I would rather not be deceived.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

What is it we have been told to do?

Firstfruits

Frecs
Jul 2nd 2010, 06:30 PM
How righteous are you? do you do enough to earn your salvation? are you sure?

Tiffany Faith
Jul 2nd 2010, 06:35 PM
The same way we are all supposed to be, but as you believe this is not the true meaning you will not accept it, I would rather not be deceived.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

What is it we have been told to do?

Firstfruits
Are you mormon? Just curious... I have some mormon friends and I've noticed you make alot of the same arguments they do on several of your posts throughout the website. If not mormon, is your family mormon? Hope that doesn't offend, just curious.