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Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 12:55 AM
I would like to do the same thing that BD did in his thread. I would like to hear why Christians believe that works are or are not necessary to be saved in the end. I am not talking about initially being saved, but being saved in the end. And like BD's thread this is "NOT" for debate but just to post your reasons. Please if you give a particular Scripture as your reason please explain it, don't just post Ephesians 2:8 and leave it at that. Thanks.

Slug1
Jun 21st 2010, 01:52 AM
I would like to do the same thing that BD did in his thread. I would like to hear why Christians believe that works are or are not necessary to be saved in the end. I am not talking about initially being saved, but being saved in the end. And like BD's thread this is "NOT" for debate but just to post your reasons. Please if you give a particular Scripture as your reason please explain it, don't just post Ephesians 2:8 and leave it at that. Thanks. Works are a necessary part of the relationship with God. So necessary that if God can't use us to produce fruit that will glorify Him (John 15:1-7)... He'll take us off the vine. Even the parable of the barren fig tree is an example of how God comes looking for the production of fruit and when He finds none, tells the keeper (Jesus) to get rid of the tree. The keeper asks (Intercedes) for another year to work with the unfruitful tree. We see what happens of the tree remains unfruitful... the keeper allows the owner to cut the tree down.

Once we are saved... the work begins. Works don't begin first as some religions preach, that works are needed for salvation... work is a product of our salvation.

HisLeast
Jun 21st 2010, 01:58 AM
Still trying to figure out what "works" are exactly.

nzyr
Jun 21st 2010, 02:16 AM
I would like to hear why Christians believe that works are or are not necessary to be saved in the end. I am not talking about initially being saved, but being saved in the end. So are you saying someone can be saved at the beginning and then lost in the end? Isn't salvation a gift from God?

MMK
Jun 21st 2010, 02:21 AM
We believe that you cant get to heaven by good works alone but faith without them is dead. The true believer will do good works to the end.
What can we say to Jesus if He were to ask us why He should allow us into heaven, can you say - Lord because of all the good works i have done.
We are Saved by grace and not by works so that no-one can boast in himself that he did something to earn salvation. We are accepted by reveicing Him as Lord and believing in Him.
Whatever good work we do for God it is because God gave us the grace to do so. We are able to live for him because he will sustain us to the end.
To answer the question i would have to put my answer in the middle as i dont believe you can say that you are saved in the end by your works but then again would you be saved in the first place if you didnt do any.
I think the question needs to broaden out and such a clinical answer may not be given and that we should base our answer on scripture and not seek to complicate an issue.
Im thinking to myself am i growing in my relationship with christ, am i more faithfull this year than i was last year, is my desire to love him and my aim to please him.
We have a calling and a work to do, to love the lord to serve him in the place where ha has placed us, in our families, church, work, social lives are we dedicated to work for the Lord in every are and we seeking to grow to become more like Him scripture says those who persevere to the end will be saved and also it says thats God who began a good work in you will complete that work untill he returns so that when he does return when we see Him we shall be like Him.
Works are not needed to get to heaven but are required as the proof of our faith.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 02:58 AM
So are you saying someone can be saved at the beginning and then lost in the end? Isn't salvation a gift from God?

Yes, I am saying that and yes, salvation is a gift from God.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 03:05 AM
The point I am getting at is this, whatever you believe about works, "Why" do you believe it. In other words, why do you believe works are not necessary or why do you believe they are necessary to be saved in the end?

thedee
Jun 21st 2010, 03:11 AM
I would like to do the same thing that BD did in his thread. I would like to hear why Christians believe that works are or are not necessary to be saved in the end. I am not talking about initially being saved, but being saved in the end. And like BD's thread this is "NOT" for debate but just to post your reasons. Please if you give a particular Scripture as your reason please explain it, don't just post Ephesians 2:8 and leave it at that. Thanks.

Why not just post Eph 2:8? Doesn't that say it all?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," - Eph 2:8

Our works is the result of our faith. Our works in no way will save us. Our works show our faith. Without works/fruits nobody sees our faith therefore "faith without works is dead". I will show you my faith by my works but it is not the works that saves but faith alone.

RogerW
Jun 21st 2010, 10:35 AM
We are justified (declared righteous) by faith without works that it might be by grace. To him that works the reward (eternal life) is not counted as grace, but of debt. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law (works), but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham. From wench cometh this faith that justifies the ungodly? God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

blessings,
RW

rett777
Jun 21st 2010, 10:58 AM
Works are a necessary part of the relationship with God. So necessary that if God can't use us to produce fruit that will glorify Him (John 15:1-7)... He'll take us off the vine. Even the parable of the barren fig tree is an example of how God comes looking for the production of fruit and when He finds none, tells the keeper (Jesus) to get rid of the tree. The keeper asks (Intercedes) for another year to work with the unfruitful tree. We see what happens of the tree remains unfruitful... the keeper allows the owner to cut the tree down.

Once we are saved... the work begins. Works don't begin first as some religions preach, that works are needed for salvation... work is a product of our salvation.

This really concerns me. I have been wayward for a while. Drinking, lying, giving into lust and gluttony. The list goes on. Recently I've been shocked back to my senses, but I haven't been fruitful for Him in quite some time. I'd like to start doing so, but there aren't many oppertunities. I very rarely speak to anyone outside of posting a few comments on the internet. I don't know any of my neighbors. Or anyone really in the surrounding area. I hope on attending the local church for the first time this wensday. Is there something that I need to do to renew myself?

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 11:37 AM
Why not just post Eph 2:8? Doesn't that say it all?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," - Eph 2:8

Our works is the result of our faith. Our works in no way will save us. Our works show our faith. Without works/fruits nobody sees our faith therefore "faith without works is dead". I will show you my faith by my works but it is not the works that saves but faith alone.

I didn't want people to just post a verse and leave it at that. I wanted to know why you believe that what you do. In othe words, why do you believe Epehsians 2:8 means any kind of works at all if that is what you believe. We can all post passages of Scripure but we may interpret them differently so posting a passage may mean two different things to two different people.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 11:40 AM
We are justified (declared righteous) by faith without works that it might be by grace. To him that works the reward (eternal life) is not counted as grace, but of debt. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law (works), but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham. From wench cometh this faith that justifies the ungodly? God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

blessings,
RW
Thanks Roger, but don't believe this touches on "Why" you believe it. From former discussions I know you believe that once one is justified they will of necessity be saved. However, others don't hold that same view so if you would could you please tell us "Why" you believe what you do regarding works?

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 11:43 AM
This really concerns me. I have been wayward for a while. Drinking, lying, giving into lust and gluttony. The list goes on. Recently I've been shocked back to my senses, but I haven't been fruitful for Him in quite some time. I'd like to start doing so, but there aren't many oppertunities. I very rarely speak to anyone outside of posting a few comments on the internet. I don't know any of my neighbors. Or anyone really in the surrounding area. I hope on attending the local church for the first time this wensday. Is there something that I need to do to renew myself?

Hi rett,

I would suggest reading Matthew 5-7, if you model you life after these chapters you will be doing the works that Christ has call us to. Matthew 25 is another place to find how we should be living.

-SEEKING-
Jun 21st 2010, 12:48 PM
I don't know the exact scripture right now, but I do believe it's James Chapter 2. By works I understand that what James is saying is that when you have faith. That faith has to be visible. And it is visible in your works. Those things that you do which are prompted by your faith. As Butch said these aren't "works" that Paul talks about when he says you're not saved by works. In other words observing the law will not make you right with God. But if you say you have faith, it has to show up in your life. Those are the works that James is referring too and I believe Butch is referring to as well.

In conclusion, there has to be a visible manifestation of your faith, which shows that God has indeed touched your life. I don't think you can have the Holy Spirit abide in you, and it not produce something.

MMK
Jun 21st 2010, 01:00 PM
God has a people who will be saved and who will go to heaven, the people and number is known to God alone.
Should Christians live doubting whether they are good enuff to get to heaven because they have not done enuff ''good works'.
Whta confidence assurance will that person have of going to heaven.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are IN christ.
I am confident and have full assurance that i am saved and that i am going to heaven, i want to live for God and i hope this issue of works does not get over worked to the point of it being over emphasised more than what scripture says about it.
Once Saved allways saved i more to more or less 'good works than another christian, but if i am saved i am not going to lose my faith. the people who dont go to heaven are those who were not saved in the first place and that is another issue altogether.
You say that a believer can lose his faith based on the fact he is not doing any/enuff 'good works' i would say that that person was never saved if he doesnt persevere and God is the ONLy judge at the end of the day. I believe being saved and doing good works goes hand in hand.

chad
Jun 21st 2010, 01:17 PM
A bit of a long post, but here we go....

Our Salvation is based on Righteosness that comes through faith, not by works.

Romans 9:30 – Speaks of the Gentiles obtaining righteousness by faith.
Romans 9:32 – Speaks of how Israel did not obtain righteousness, because they tried to obtain it by works. (as the KJV states, as it were the works of the law.)

It is by Grace that we are saved. Romans 11:6 writes, if it is by Grace, it is no longer by works. If we believe that we are saved by works, then we are no longer saved by the grace of God.

Ephesians 2:9 says that by Grace we are saved, this is the gift of God .

But there is also works as stated in Ephesians 2:10, these are ‘good works’, which God has prepared in advance for us to do.

(Eph 2:10 NIV) For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So what are these works? Eph 4:12. writes, of works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up. (Eph 4:13 NIV) until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Who does works? (Eph 4:11 NIV) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,

Examples:
(Acts 13:2 NIV) While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

(Rom 15:22 NIV) This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you. (23 NIV) But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to see you,

(Rom 16:12 NIV) Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.

(1 Cor 16:10 NIV) If Timothy comes, see to it that he has nothing to fear while he is with you, for he is carrying on the work of the Lord, just as I am.

(1 Tim 5:17 NIV) The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.


Then there are the good works, which we as christians do.

(2 Tim 3:16 NIV) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (17) so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

(Heb 6:9 NIV) Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation. (10 NIV) God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

There is also the work that God is doing in us. Sanctifying us by the Holy Spirt (2 Thessalonians 2:13) and bringing us into the maturity and fullness of Christ (Eph 4:13).

So, works are necessary in order that that the body of Christ may be built up. So that we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature. So that we can attain the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2010, 01:22 PM
I would like to do the same thing that BD did in his thread. I would like to hear why Christians believe that works are or are not necessary to be saved in the end. I am not talking about initially being saved, but being saved in the end. And like BD's thread this is "NOT" for debate but just to post your reasons. Please if you give a particular Scripture as your reason please explain it, don't just post Ephesians 2:8 and leave it at that. Thanks.

I believe that good works accompany salvation as in the following scripture.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless!

Firstfruits

RogerW
Jun 21st 2010, 01:49 PM
Thanks Roger, but don't believe this touches on "Why" you believe it. From former discussions I know you believe that once one is justified they will of necessity be saved. However, others don't hold that same view so if you would could you please tell us "Why" you believe what you do regarding works?

Actually Butch to be justified is to be declared righteous. For one to be declared righteous, one would already have been regnerated (born again/saved) through the power God. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of justification; which comes after regeneration, and being born again? One who has been regenerated by the power of God, will of necessity be declared righteous (justified), not by works of righteousness which we do, but according to His mercy God imputes Christ's righteousness without works.

Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 02:55 PM
Actually Butch to be justified is to be declared righteous. For one to be declared righteous, one would already have been regnerated (born again/saved) through the power God. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of justification; which comes after regeneration, and being born again? One who has been regenerated by the power of God, will of necessity be declared righteous (justified), not by works of righteousness which we do, but according to His mercy God imputes Christ's righteousness without works.

Blessings,
RW

I'm not speaking of justification. if you believe that works are not necessary to be saved in the end, why do you believe it?

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 02:57 PM
I believe that good works accompany salvation as in the following scripture.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless!

Firstfruits


Thanks Michael!

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 02:58 PM
A bit of a long post, but here we go....

Our Salvation is based on Righteosness that comes through faith, not by works.

Romans 9:30 – Speaks of the Gentiles obtaining righteousness by faith.
Romans 9:32 – Speaks of how Israel did not obtain righteousness, because they tried to obtain it by works. (as the KJV states, as it were the works of the law.)

It is by Grace that we are saved. Romans 11:6 writes, if it is by Grace, it is no longer by works. If we believe that we are saved by works, then we are no longer saved by the grace of God.

Ephesians 2:9 says that by Grace we are saved, this is the gift of God .

But there is also works as stated in Ephesians 2:10, these are ‘good works’, which God has prepared in advance for us to do.

(Eph 2:10 NIV) For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So what are these works? Eph 4:12. writes, of works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up. (Eph 4:13 NIV) until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Who does works? (Eph 4:11 NIV) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,

Examples:
(Acts 13:2 NIV) While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

(Rom 15:22 NIV) This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you. (23 NIV) But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to see you,

(Rom 16:12 NIV) Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.

(1 Cor 16:10 NIV) If Timothy comes, see to it that he has nothing to fear while he is with you, for he is carrying on the work of the Lord, just as I am.

(1 Tim 5:17 NIV) The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.


Then there are the good works, which we as christians do.

(2 Tim 3:16 NIV) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (17) so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

(Heb 6:9 NIV) Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation. (10 NIV) God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

There is also the work that God is doing in us. Sanctifying us by the Holy Spirt (2 Thessalonians 2:13) and bringing us into the maturity and fullness of Christ (Eph 4:13).

So, works are necessary in order that that the body of Christ may be built up. So that we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature. So that we can attain the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

OK, if works are not necessary, why not?

RogerW
Jun 21st 2010, 03:33 PM
I'm not speaking of justification. if you believe that works are not necessary to be saved in the end, why do you believe it?

Because if works were required for salvation then salvation would not be according to grace, but because we deserve it. You can't argue salvation is by grace, then add our works...Scripture is pretty clear on this point. To the laborer, what he merits or earns can never be called a gift, a favor, mercy or grace, but rather it is an obligation owed to him. If our work is involved at all for salvation (regardless of the degree of work), it is a debt and not grace at all!

Ro*11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Ro*11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Tit*3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit*3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit*3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Eph*1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph*1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 04:05 PM
Because if works were required for salvation then salvation would not be according to grace, but because we deserve it. You can't argue salvation is by grace, then add our works...Scripture is pretty clear on this point. To the laborer, what he merits or earns can never be called a gift, a favor, mercy or grace, but rather it is an obligation owed to him. If our work is involved at all for salvation (regardless of the degree of work), it is a debt and not grace at all!

Ro*11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Ro*11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Tit*3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit*3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit*3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Eph*1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph*1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Blessings,
RW

OK, thanks Roger!

John146
Jun 21st 2010, 06:25 PM
I would like to do the same thing that BD did in his thread. I would like to hear why Christians believe that works are or are not necessary to be saved in the end. I am not talking about initially being saved, but being saved in the end. And like BD's thread this is "NOT" for debate but just to post your reasons. Please if you give a particular Scripture as your reason please explain it, don't just post Ephesians 2:8 and leave it at that. Thanks.For one thing there is no reason to think that the requirements for salvation would be any different for being saved intially and being saved in the end. Anyway, scripture teaches that certain types of works are not necessary for salvation.

Romans 3
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Notice here that it indicates that if works of the law were required then there would be cause for boasting and it would not be of grace. But it does not say that regarding faith. In regards to his claim that a person is justified by believing in Jesus Paul asks "where is boasting then" in that? And he says "It is excluded". So, faith being required is not a cause for boasting but if works of the law were required that would be a cause for boasting. The following passages also say that works are not necessary for salvation:

Eph 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Like the passage from Romans 3 & 4 these do not say that faith would be among the kind of works that are not necessary for salvation.

Scripture does describe faith as a work but not of the type that is not required for salvation. Faith is clearly required for salvation:

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 6
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If the question has to do with whether or not people are required to do something in order to be saved then my answer to that question is yes. The same requirement for being saved initially is what is required for being saved in the end:

Heb 3
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 07:18 PM
For one thing there is no reason to think that the requirements for salvation would be any different for being saved intially and being saved in the end. Anyway, scripture teaches that certain types of works are not necessary for salvation.

Romans 3
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Notice here that it indicates that if works of the law were required then there would be cause for boasting and it would not be of grace. But it does not say that regarding faith. In regards to his claim that a person is justified by believing in Jesus Paul asks "where is boasting then" in that? And he says "It is excluded". So, faith being required is not a cause for boasting but if works of the law were required that would be a cause for boasting. The following passages also say that works are not necessary for salvation:

Eph 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Like the passage from Romans 3 & 4 these do not say that faith would be among the kind of works that are not necessary for salvation.

Scripture does describe faith as a work but not of the type that is not required for salvation. Faith is clearly required for salvation:

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 6
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If the question has to do with whether or not people are required to do something in order to be saved then my answer to that question is yes. The same requirement for being saved initially is what is required for being saved in the end:

Heb 3
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Thanks, Eric !!

John146
Jun 21st 2010, 08:24 PM
Thanks, Eric !!You're welcome. Can you tell me why you started this thread? Just curiosity or did you have a specific reason?

Slug1
Jun 21st 2010, 08:59 PM
This really concerns me. I have been wayward for a while. Drinking, lying, giving into lust and gluttony. The list goes on. Recently I've been shocked back to my senses, but I haven't been fruitful for Him in quite some time. I'd like to start doing so, but there aren't many oppertunities. I very rarely speak to anyone outside of posting a few comments on the internet. I don't know any of my neighbors. Or anyone really in the surrounding area. I hope on attending the local church for the first time this wensday. Is there something that I need to do to renew myself?You may want to start a thread in Counseling so this question of yours can be addressed in depth and then we won't derail this thread.

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 09:06 PM
You're welcome. Can you tell me why you started this thread? Just curiosity or did you have a specific reason?

I am trying to figure out why exactly people are against the idea of works being necessary for salvation. I suspect that many people base their belief on Ephesians 2:8 and define those works in modern terms.

John146
Jun 21st 2010, 09:18 PM
I am trying to figure out why exactly people are against the idea of works being necessary for salvation. I suspect that many people base their belief on Ephesians 2:8 and define those works in modern terms.Somehow, some include faith among the works that aren't necessary for salvation. But faith is differentiated from the works mentioned in Eph 2:8-10. We are saved by grace through faith, but not by works. If faith was one of the works by which we are not saved then it couldn't be said that we are saved through faith. Anyway, thanks for answering my question.

chad
Jun 21st 2010, 09:21 PM
Hi Butch,

Works for salvation are not necessary, because we are saved by Grace, not works. This is the gift of God as no work we can ever do is enough to fulfill the law in order that we may gain rigteousnesss through obeying the law. It is Only through Christ Jesus that we are made righteous, and that is becuase of his sacrifice on the cross, this is the gift of God.

After salvation there is a work in believers that God does. That is sanctification (through the Holy Spirit) and brining us into the maturity and fullness of Christ.

There is a different kind of work after salvation. That is good works.

These good works take different forms, some are called to minister and do works of service, so the body of Christ can be built up.

Others do good works, that are produce as a result of our faith (1 Theselonians 1:3, 1 Tim 1:4 NIV), they are not based on Salvation. For in Eph 2:10, Paul writes God has also prepared in advance for us to do good works.

Good works can also come from the fruit that is a result of our faith (Col 1:10, Col 3:23-24, 2 Tim 2:21, 2 Tim 3:17 - NIV)


So works are not necessary for our salvation, but God does expect us to do good works, as a result of our faith.



OK, if works are not necessary, why not?

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 09:31 PM
Hi Butch,

Works for salvation are not necessary, because we are saved by Grace, not works. This is the gift of God as no work we can ever do is enough to fulfill the law in order that we may gain righteousness through obeying the law. It is Only through Christ Jesus that we are made righteous, and that is becuase of his sacrifice on the cross, this is the gift of God.

After salvation there is a work in believers that God does. That is sanctification (through the Holy Spirit) and braining us into the maturity and fullness of Christ.

There is a different kind of work after salvation. That is good works.

These good works take different forms, some are called to minister and do works of service, so the body of Christ can be built up.

Others do good works, that are produce as a result of our faith (1 Theselonians 1:3, 1 Tim 1:4 NIV), they are not based on Salvation. For God has also pre-destined us to do good works.

Good works can also come from the fruit that is a result of our faith (Col 1:10, Col 3:23-24, 2 Tim 2:21, 2 Tim 3:17 - NIV)


So works are not necessary for our salvation, but God does expect us to do good works, as a result of our faith.

Hi Chad, I need to clarify something, you said good works come after salvation, but I was talking about being saved in the end, at the judgement. So, if one is saved and does not do any of the "Good works" that you spoke of, will they be saved in the end, at the judgment?

chad
Jun 21st 2010, 09:41 PM
Ok this is just my opnion.

(Mt 16:27, Eph 6:8, Rev 22:12 speak of rewards).

(Mat 16:27 NIV) For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

(Eph 6:7 NIV) Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, (8) because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

(Rev 22:12 NIV) "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

In the end Jesus will be the judge and will reward everyone according to what they have done.



Hi Chad, I need to clarify something, you said good works come after salvation, but I was talking about being saved in the end, at the judgement. So, if one is saved and does not do any of the "Good works" that you spoke of, will they be saved in the end, at the judgment?

Butch5
Jun 21st 2010, 09:46 PM
Ok this is just my opnion.

(Mt 16:27, Eph 6:8, Rev 22:12 speak of rewards).

(Mat 16:27 NIV) For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

(Eph 6:7 NIV) Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, (8) because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

(Rev 22:12 NIV) "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

In the end Jesus will be the judge and will reward everyone according to what they have done.

OK, correct me if I am wrong, you believe the works are only for reward and not eternal life or damnation?

chad
Jun 21st 2010, 09:53 PM
Hi Butch,

Ok, let me try and clarify. Our salvation is based on faith not works. The Good works that we do, God will reward us according to Mt 16:27, Eph 6:8, Rev 22:12.

Ultimately, Jesus is the judge of both our salvation and our works. I can only believe, what is written in the bible regarding salvation and good works.



OK, correct me if I am wrong, you believe the works are only for reward and not eternal life or damnation?

thedee
Jun 21st 2010, 09:57 PM
I didn't want people to just post a verse and leave it at that. I wanted to know why you believe that what you do. In othe words, why do you believe Epehsians 2:8 means any kind of works at all if that is what you believe. We can all post passages of Scripure but we may interpret them differently so posting a passage may mean two different things to two different people.

If works determine if we have eternal life or not and go to heaven then we are all screwed. It saddens me to see how people add faith + works and not faith alone.

Our works should be the result of our faith. Work does not save us... faith does.

Slug1
Jun 21st 2010, 10:04 PM
Hi Butch,

Ok, let me try and clarify. Our salvation is based on faith not works. The Good works that we do, God will reward us according to Mt 16:27, Eph 6:8, Rev 22:12.

Ultimately, Jesus is the judge of both our salvation and our works. I can only believe, what is written in the bible regarding salvation and good works.

So what is the truth of our faith or value of the faith if God can't do His work with the faith we are given? Why the faith is dead warnings in the Bible?

Yes, faith saves us... as long as it remains active and God can use it.

chad
Jun 21st 2010, 10:10 PM
Wow, I'm starting to feel like this is turning into a debate. As per the original post, I have posted my reasons and I will leave it at that.


And like BD's thread this is "NOT" for debate but just to post your reasons. Please if you give a particular Scripture as your reason please explain it, don't just post Ephesians 2:8 and leave it at that. Thanks.


So what is the truth of our faith or value of the faith if God can't do His work with the faith we are given? Why the faith is dead warnings in the Bible?

Yes, faith saves us... as long as it remains active and God can use it.

Slug1
Jun 21st 2010, 10:13 PM
Wow, I'm starting to feel like this is turning into a debate. As per the original post, I have posted my reasons and I will leave it at that.Questions were asked in the other thread as well... no debate.

chad
Jun 22nd 2010, 12:29 AM
Hi Slug,

Are asking about verses like James 2:14-18.

(James 2:14 NIV) What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? (15) Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. (16) If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? (17) In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (18) But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

I believe what James is talking about is the good works that come from faith. I believe he is saying that our faith should produce good works.

The question then becomes, does our good work or lack of good works nulify our salvation.

What of the work of those does not survive, does that good work nulify someones salvation. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:13

No as is written: (1 Cor 3:13 NIV) his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. (14) If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. (15) If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

What about those who have no works as the thief on the cross. What good works did he have, apart from believing in the Lord Jesus, yet he was saved without having any good works. For Luke writes in Chapter 23:43 (NIV) Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."


[QUOTE=Slug1;2436348]Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
So what is the truth of our faith or value of the faith if God can't do His work with the faith we are given? Why the faith is dead warnings in the Bible?

Yes, faith saves us... as long as it remains active and God can use it.

thedee
Jun 22nd 2010, 02:29 AM
I would like to do the same thing that BD did in his thread. I would like to hear why Christians believe that works are or are not necessary to be saved in the end. I am not talking about initially being saved, but being saved in the end. And like BD's thread this is "NOT" for debate but just to post your reasons. Please if you give a particular Scripture as your reason please explain it, don't just post Ephesians 2:8 and leave it at that. Thanks.

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" - Titus 3:5

All the world's religions are based upon works. The idea that we must live up to a certain standard of works to be saves is the foundation of paganism. Somehow the gods must be appeased by human effort or sacrifice.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." - Romans 3:20

We are justified by faith alone. That is exaclty what 1 Cor 3:15 states "If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.".... even if all of man's works are burned up, he himself is saved.... that is justification by faith alone without any works even to demonstrate it.

In the books of James, James is speaking from the human standpoint. We cannot know the heart, so we must go by the works. God, however knows the heart and He needs no works to demonstrate anyone's faith.

Owen
Jun 22nd 2010, 03:12 AM
Works are not necessary to become part of God's people whom He blesses, but they are essential if one wants to stay in. For instance, In Deuteronomy 9:4-5, God tells Israel that they are not receiving the land because of their works. In Exodus, no works of faithfulness of God is ascribing to the body of Israel before God leads them out through Moses. Those things were done on behalf of the covenant and promises God made to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and not what the people themselves did. However, as the history of the Old Testament attests to, Israel frequently lost the land and become oppressed by other nations because of their failure to be faithful.

Likewise, for us as Christians, we may experience the power of God in our lives initially because of the covenant Jesus brought about, but that doesn't mean once we are in the covenant works are necessary. Therefore, the ungodly who trusts in God may come to be treated as righteous by God (Romans 4:5) just as Abraham's faith was the basis for Abraham being seen as righteous (Genesis 15:6). However, one must then live out that righteous standing to remain treated as such, just as Abraham did in offering up Isaac (see James 2:21-22).

Interestingly enough, grace is never said to be the basis for having eternal life, but works are (Romans 2:6-8). And while belief is linked with eternal life such as in John 3:16, it isn't necessary to treat belief in Jesus as the all that is necessary for eternal life as the interpretation of those type passages in John. Belief can be referred to as the means by which one can come have eternal life, like having a spoon means I can make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Just as having a spoon is not sufficient by itself for a peanut butter sandwich (you must actually use the spoon in a particular way), believing in Jesus is not seen as a sufficient cause. Jesus life and words are the how we have eternal life, and believing in Jesus means we have believed Jesus words are true and have opened ourselves up to the way and words that bring eternal life. That finer point of interpretation entails a bit of exegesis and narrative interpretation of the Gospel of John, so I can not quickly point to any passage on its own that makes that definitely clear, but I think John 3:36 is best understood as believe in Jesus implies obedience.

BroRog
Jun 22nd 2010, 04:13 AM
I would like to do the same thing that BD did in his thread. I would like to hear why Christians believe that works are or are not necessary to be saved in the end. I am not talking about initially being saved, but being saved in the end. And like BD's thread this is "NOT" for debate but just to post your reasons. Please if you give a particular Scripture as your reason please explain it, don't just post Ephesians 2:8 and leave it at that. Thanks.Works of faith are things we do which follow logically from what we believe. To put a find point on it, consider the young lady who believed in Jesus with all her heart, but lived her whole life in an iron lung. And when she dies, she enters heaven to hear great and loud applause from the angels. Someone asks, "who is she and what did she do?" An Angel answers, "That is the young lady who was hit by a car on her way home from church and she spent her whole life in an iron lung." Someone asks, "Why all the applause?" The Angel answers, "She didn't complain once."

kay-gee
Jun 22nd 2010, 12:41 PM
Right on Owen. You expressed that well. To me that has always been the kicker and a stmbling block for so many well intentioned Christian seekers. To BELIEVE in Christ MEANS that you BELIEVE WHAT He SAYS!!!

The mistake should never be made Jesus didn't give us a ton of stuff to do because He did. Obedience required. Obedience is Belief. Belief is Obedience. Many verses in John make that abundantly clear. The modern notion in Christianity that says do nothing is sad. They teach nothing required. Sit on your hands and enjoy this wonderful mystical experience of "believing" in Christ.

I'm reminded of Mark 10. The rich young ruler. I don't think that he did not "believe" in Christ or who Christ was. He addresses hHim as good teacher. He obviously felt Jesus had the key to eternal life, not so of all good teachers. He already had a good track record for works, but when Jesus gave him the answer, he counted the cost and was unable to DO THE WORK. In all likelihood he will not be in heaven.

To me, to trust in Christ and the cross and all that really means that you agree that the work He has given you is reasonable and doable.

all the best...

BroRog
Jun 22nd 2010, 03:30 PM
Right on Owen. You expressed that well. To me that has always been the kicker and a stmbling block for so many well intentioned Christian seekers. To BELIEVE in Christ MEANS that you BELIEVE WHAT He SAYS!!!

The mistake should never be made Jesus didn't give us a ton of stuff to do because He did. Obedience required. Obedience is Belief. Belief is Obedience. Many verses in John make that abundantly clear. The modern notion in Christianity that says do nothing is sad. They teach nothing required. Sit on your hands and enjoy this wonderful mystical experience of "believing" in Christ.

I'm reminded of Mark 10. The rich young ruler. I don't think that he did not "believe" in Christ or who Christ was. He addresses hHim as good teacher. He obviously felt Jesus had the key to eternal life, not so of all good teachers. He already had a good track record for works, but when Jesus gave him the answer, he counted the cost and was unable to DO THE WORK. In all likelihood he will not be in heaven.

To me, to trust in Christ and the cross and all that really means that you agree that the work He has given you is reasonable and doable.

all the best...It depends on what kind of things you have in mind when you talk about obedience. If you are talking about obeying the rules of a religion, i.e. church attendance, baptism, communion, ritual prayer, foot washing, tithing, confirmation, catechism and things such as these, then I don't think James or Paul are talking about these. These are not the kinds of things that demonstrate faith in God or Jesus Christ.

xsited1
Jun 22nd 2010, 04:13 PM
This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. So let me summarize what I've gleaned thus far about achieving eternal life:

Whoever believes in Christ has a chance at eternal life (John 3:16, John 3:36). Our faith should produce good works that will be tested by God (James 2:14-18, 1 Cor 3:13). If what we have built passes God's test and survives, we will receive eternal life (1 Cor 3:14-15, Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12).

dan
Jun 22nd 2010, 05:08 PM
I would like to do the same thing that BD did in his thread. I would like to hear why Christians believe that works are or are not necessary to be saved in the end. I am not talking about initially being saved, but being saved in the end. And like BD's thread this is "NOT" for debate but just to post your reasons. Please if you give a particular Scripture as your reason please explain it, don't just post Ephesians 2:8 and leave it at that. Thanks.

1COR 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Fleeing and killing are physical acts.:lol:

thedee
Jun 22nd 2010, 05:40 PM
This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. So let me summarize what I've gleaned thus far about achieving eternal life:

Whoever believes in Christ has a chance at eternal life (John 3:16, John 3:36). Our faith should produce good works that will be tested by God (James 2:14-18, 1 Cor 3:13). If what we have built passes God's test and survives, we will receive eternal life (1 Cor 3:14-15, Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12).

If what we do on this earth is what determines if we go to heaven or not then we are all doomed. Eternal life is by faith alone. Read my post #40

dan
Jun 22nd 2010, 05:57 PM
If what we do on this earth is what determines if we go to heaven or not then we are all doomed. Eternal life is by faith alone. Read my post #40

...Jesus said to do certain things:

MT 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
MT 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

When a Jew believes in The God Of Abraham, does he not obey God's Commands?

Likewise, a believer in Jesus should do what he has been told to do, IMO.

Come to think of it, how much belief in Jesus does it require to prophesy and cast out demons? Yet, some of those that are powerful enough to perform these wonders will be denied by The Christ:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matt 7:22)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt 7:23)

Also, doesn't your belief in Jesus make you want to do more than just believe?

Isn't that why you are participating on this website?

thedee
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:07 PM
...Jesus said to do certain things:

MT 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
MT 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

When a Jew believes in The God Of Abraham, does he not obey God's Commands?

Likewise, a believer in Jesus should do what he has been told to do, IMO.

Come to think of it, how much belief in Jesus does it require to prophesy and cast out demons? Yet, some of those that are powerful enough to perform these wonders will be denied by The Christ:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matt 7:22)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt 7:23)

Context my friend. One verse you quotes was this:
MT 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

if we don't "pray for them which despitefully use you," will we lose our salvation? Certainly not.

xsited1
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:12 PM
If what we do on this earth is what determines if we go to heaven or not then we are all doomed. Eternal life is by faith alone. Read my post #40

We have to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior on this Earth.

So what is meant by this?


God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
Romans 2:6-11

dan
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:16 PM
Context my friend. One verse you quotes was this:
MT 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

if we don't "pray for them which despitefully use you," will we lose our salvation? Certainly not.

...Do you know what will cause the denial by Christ of someone that is able to prophesy and cast out demons and do other works?

thedee
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:22 PM
We have to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior on this Earth.

So what is meant by this?


God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
Romans 2:6-11

According to verse 7, it seems that eternal life can be gained by doing good. But Romans clearly teaches justifacation by faith (3:22). But Paul does not contradict himself. The subject of this verse is judgement, not justification. Believers who continue in good works will receive rewards.

"If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." - 1 Cor 3:15

thedee
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:23 PM
...Do you know what will cause the denial by Christ of someone that is able to prophesy and cast out demons and do other works?

Make your point.

Beckrl
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:45 PM
Well, I would say that works aren't apart of salvation, but it would come because of our salvation. The question then do one needs works to make it into heaven, the awsner would be no., but one would have works either way for both the righeous and unrigtheous will be judged by their works.

The only different here would be that the righteous works will have an good reward, in which our works will be tried by fire weither it be of Hay, Wood or Stubble, but as for their Salvation that would come by their names being written down in the Book of Life.

Jesus said that some of our works would be great that his. John 14:9-14

kay-gee
Jun 22nd 2010, 08:21 PM
It depends on what kind of things you have in mind when you talk about obedience. If you are talking about obeying the rules of a religion, i.e. church attendance, baptism, communion, ritual prayer, foot washing, tithing, confirmation, catechism and things such as these, then I don't think James or Paul are talking about these. These are not the kinds of things that demonstrate faith in God or Jesus Christ.

On he contrary BroRog...When Paul addressed communion in Corinthians, he tells us it PROCLAIMS his death. It is to be done in REMEMBRACE of. Also we are to EXAMINE ourselves before partaking....I cant understand why you say it is not connected to faith and belief. It's totaly connected to faith and belief.

Baptism...well you kow what I believe about that already. A direct command from Jesus and carried on by apostles. Peter seemed totally concerned with this one. Whenever he preached, folks got water baptized!

church attendance...If not important, why did the Hebrew writer command us to NOT forsake the assembly?

foot washing does not appear to be a direct command to us, but serves as a model of humility in service to our brethren.

We are commanded to GIVE, however tithe is an OT concept, not applicable to NT church. We are free to give much more than 10%

Confirmation...I would agree, appears completely man made. I'll say the same for catechism. I don't know why a hand book of rules is needed when we have the perfect Bible.

Time to re-study some of these things BroRog

all the best...

The Mighty Sword
Jun 22nd 2010, 08:25 PM
What is the biblical definition of "Works" ???

newinchrist4now
Jun 22nd 2010, 08:26 PM
I am trying to figure out why exactly people are against the idea of works being necessary for salvation. I suspect that many people base their belief on Ephesians 2:8 and define those works in modern terms.

Maybe they misunderstand. Most of the time when the Scriptures speaks of works they are usually talking about the Law, not good works.

kay-gee
Jun 22nd 2010, 08:29 PM
This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. So let me summarize what I've gleaned thus far about achieving eternal life:

Whoever believes in Christ has a chance at eternal life (John 3:16, John 3:36). Our faith should produce good works that will be tested by God (James 2:14-18, 1 Cor 3:13). If what we have built passes God's test and survives, we will receive eternal life (1 Cor 3:14-15, Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12).

That is a fair summation.

all the best...

BroRog
Jun 22nd 2010, 09:25 PM
On he contrary BroRog...When Paul addressed communion in Corinthians, he tells us it PROCLAIMS his death. It is to be done in REMEMBRACE of. Also we are to EXAMINE ourselves before partaking....I cant understand why you say it is not connected to faith and belief. It's totaly connected to faith and belief.I didn't say they weren't connected to the faith. I said they didn't demonstrate faith. Rituals are like chores. We do them because our parents told us to do them.

John146
Jun 22nd 2010, 09:59 PM
Hi Chad, I need to clarify something, you said good works come after salvation, but I was talking about being saved in the end, at the judgement. So, if one is saved and does not do any of the "Good works" that you spoke of, will they be saved in the end, at the judgment?Yes, unless you think the thief on the cross will not be saved at the judgment. I'm certain he will be, though, and will inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world along with the rest of us.

BroRog
Jun 22nd 2010, 10:06 PM
What is the biblical definition of "Works" ???

There are at least two basic concepts of "works" in the New Testament, 1) Rituals, and 2) Practices.

Rituals:

Paul argues that we are saved by faith apart from the works of the law. In that context he is talking about the Jewish religious rituals. Most commonly Paul refers to the "work" of circumcision as he does here in Romans 3:28-30.



For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Romans 3:28-30.

At other times Paul mentions other religious rituals as we see here,



Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

Festivals, Sabbath days, eating kosher, circumcision -- these are all Jewish rituals, which are the "works" the law of Moses has decreed ought to be done by those Jews under the law who are keeping the Mt. Sinai Covenant. Paul is telling his readers that, even thought God has commanded his Jewish readers to perform these rituals, a Gentile can be saved apart from doing them.

Practices:

Practices are behaviors we perform based on our personal set of virtues, what we consider worth doing. Everyone has their own set of virtues (the Bible might use the word "excellencies") These virtues guide our decisions and help us navigate our journey through life. Paul gives a partial list of the Christian virtues in Galatians 5. We know them as fruits of the spirit.



But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

Let's say that self-control is one of our personal virtues, a fruit of the spirit that is part of our experience. Then we will be guided by that virtue in situations where control is essential. Paul illustrates the virtue of self control in 1Cor. 9:25, which uses an analogy with training for a sport. The "practice" is the sport we want to play, the virtue is self control. Notice how Paul talks about discipline.



Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. 1Corinthians 9:25-27

Paul is illustrating the Christian virtue of self-control, using sports training. A key feature of the practice of Christian virtues is the idea that the Christian life is a walk toward a goal. There is a purpose to it, an end or a goal we anticipate. Paul disciplines himself in view of his purpose in life. His practice of the Christian virtues is not without aim; but he anticipates an imperishable "wreath."

The virtues we favor are the virtues that reflect our personal view on the meaning and purpose of life, and we practice those virtues, which guide and direct our decision processes as we anticipate the aim and goal of our life -- which for a Christian is fulfillment and significance.

The Mighty Sword
Jun 22nd 2010, 10:15 PM
Thanks BroRog:

Stay with me here. now could it just be that some wire are getting crossed on this thread??? Whereas works has a couple of different definitions, just throwing that out there to be considered.

kay-gee
Jun 22nd 2010, 11:21 PM
I said they didn't demonstrate faith.
Rituals are like chores. We do them because our parents told us to do them.
WHAT?!!! BroRog, you've got to be kidding me. Please! tell me you are kidding me. Not a demonstration of our faith??? Huh?

1Cor 11:26 What part of we PROCLAIM the Lords death until He comes are you not understanding. Proclaiming is not demonstrating faith?!!

Bro...I think you to give up Greek for a while and work on the Kings English LOL

It's not really like parents at all. It is what GOD the creator of the universe expects from us. A chore? Jesus said His burden was easy and His load light. How is partaking in communion a chore?
Frankly I take offense at that. He was crucified for you and instituted the love meal of bread and fruit of the vine to be done in his remembrance and you say it is a chore??

MY oh MY Unbelievable!

all the best...

Beckrl
Jun 23rd 2010, 12:31 AM
What is the biblical definition of "Works" ???

This is how Jesus spoke of works:

John 14:10-21
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

It is by the Holy Spirit that we are able to do these works and even great works that Jesus. What are the works of Jesus?

BroRog
Jun 23rd 2010, 12:35 AM
Thanks BroRog:

Stay with me here. now could it just be that some wire are getting crossed on this thread??? Whereas works has a couple of different definitions, just throwing that out there to be considered.

I'd say yes, it's very possible that wires are being crossed. I believe those who say that salvation is "by faith alone" are rightly saying that our deeds are not meritorious. That is, there isn't anything we can do to obligate God to save us. The others who say that works are necessary, are rightly pointing out that a person who genuinely believes the teachings of Jesus, will follow those teachings in the practices of life, and perhaps increasing in excellencies as he or she matures in the faith. As a Christian grows to maturity, he or she will be kinder, gentler, more patient, more honest, more humble, reaching out to others more often, placing others above themselves more often, looking for ways to express love more often, and so forth.

BroRog
Jun 23rd 2010, 01:03 AM
WHAT?!!! BroRog, you've got to be kidding me. Please! tell me you are kidding me. Not a demonstration of our faith??? Huh?Yes, that's right. Anyone, with a half-way decent attention span and an alarm clock can do ritual.


1Cor 11:26 What part of we PROCLAIM the Lords death until He comes are you not understanding. Proclaiming is not demonstrating faith?!!A video tape can proclaim the Lord's death, but we wouldn't say that the video tape has faith. In fact, if we think about it for a second, we realize that the Corinthians were attending the communion ceremony in an unworthy manner. If they weren't Paul wouldn't have mentioned it. And Paul's complaint wasn't centered on the incorrectness of the technique; his focus was on a behavior that belied their claim to faith. Some of them were gorging themselves while fellow believers were going hungry, an act that misrepresented the teachings of Jesus, and called into question their true motives. So, I would say that ritual isn't much of an act of faith. Anybody can do it, for whatever reasons they want. In this particular instance, the ritual was antifaith.


It's not really like parents at all. It is what GOD the creator of the universe expects from us. A chore? Jesus said His burden was easy and His load light. How is partaking in communion a chore?
Frankly I take offense at that. He was crucified for you and instituted the love meal of bread and fruit of the vine to be done in his remembrance and you say it is a chore?? I believe the Apostles used the term "burden", but chore sounds about right.

James, the apostle who was waist deep in ritual, says that true religion is taking care of orphans and widows, which is quite a different activity than saying seven Hail Mary's and going to confession once a week. After you do your "chores", you still need to do something meaningful for someone else, something that has intrinsic meaning and significance like giving a meal to a man you trip over outside the Carl's Junior, sharing the gospel with a neighbor, helping a child learn that Jesus loves them, and things such as these.

God hates ritual. You should hear him when he really gets going. Don't get him started. He just loaths it and can't stand it. Sometimes it makes him puke.

Isaiah said it; I'm just copying and pasting. :)



"What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the Lord. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts? Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies-- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. There's that orphan and widow thing again. There's that "learning to do good", and "seeking justice" and " reproving the ruthless" stuff again. He hates the rituals, the festivals, the sacrifices, the prayers, everything having to do with religion. He hates it. Lord only knows why he had Israel do it in the first place. It's probably something they thought they needed. Oh yea, there's that Golden Calf thing.

Anyway, can you find a scripture in which God says he likes ritual? He doesn't want ritual. He wants people to worship him in spirit and in truth. Christians just repackaged and relabeled the old rituals but they are still the same ol' same ol' man.

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 01:24 AM
"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" - Titus 3:5

All the world's religions are based upon works. The idea that we must live up to a certain standard of works to be saves is the foundation of paganism. Somehow the gods must be appeased by human effort or sacrifice.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." - Romans 3:20

We are justified by faith alone. That is exaclty what 1 Cor 3:15 states "If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.".... even if all of man's works are burned up, he himself is saved.... that is justification by faith alone without any works even to demonstrate it.

In the books of James, James is speaking from the human standpoint. We cannot know the heart, so we must go by the works. God, however knows the heart and He needs no works to demonstrate anyone's faith.

I am just trying to find out "Why" people believe, not what they believe. It appears you believe works are not necessary. What is that based on? In you post you quoted Romans 3, which speaks of the Law. The Gentiles were never under the Law, so why would you base you understanding on that passage?

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 01:28 AM
Works are not necessary to become part of God's people whom He blesses, but they are essential if one wants to stay in. For instance, In Deuteronomy 9:4-5, God tells Israel that they are not receiving the land because of their works. In Exodus, no works of faithfulness of God is ascribing to the body of Israel before God leads them out through Moses. Those things were done on behalf of the covenant and promises God made to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and not what the people themselves did. However, as the history of the Old Testament attests to, Israel frequently lost the land and become oppressed by other nations because of their failure to be faithful.

Likewise, for us as Christians, we may experience the power of God in our lives initially because of the covenant Jesus brought about, but that doesn't mean once we are in the covenant works are necessary. Therefore, the ungodly who trusts in God may come to be treated as righteous by God (Romans 4:5) just as Abraham's faith was the basis for Abraham being seen as righteous (Genesis 15:6). However, one must then live out that righteous standing to remain treated as such, just as Abraham did in offering up Isaac (see James 2:21-22).

Interestingly enough, grace is never said to be the basis for having eternal life, but works are (Romans 2:6-8). And while belief is linked with eternal life such as in John 3:16, it isn't necessary to treat belief in Jesus as the all that is necessary for eternal life as the interpretation of those type passages in John. Belief can be referred to as the means by which one can come have eternal life, like having a spoon means I can make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Just as having a spoon is not sufficient by itself for a peanut butter sandwich (you must actually use the spoon in a particular way), believing in Jesus is not seen as a sufficient cause. Jesus life and words are the how we have eternal life, and believing in Jesus means we have believed Jesus words are true and have opened ourselves up to the way and words that bring eternal life. That finer point of interpretation entails a bit of exegesis and narrative interpretation of the Gospel of John, so I can not quickly point to any passage on its own that makes that definitely clear, but I think John 3:36 is best understood as believe in Jesus implies obedience.

Hi Owen,

I agree!

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 01:33 AM
If what we do on this earth is what determines if we go to heaven or not then we are all doomed. Eternal life is by faith alone. Read my post #40

Why would we all be doomed?

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 01:35 AM
We have to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior on this Earth.

So what is meant by this?

Just what it says my friend, Just what it says.

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 01:48 AM
What is the biblical definition of "Works" ???

There are two different ones, that is why so many are confused. Paul Speaks of "Good Works" and "Works of the Law". Here is a key point that I have noticed and I think many Christians miss. Those who say that works are not necessary draw most if not all of their support from the writings of Paul. Here's another point, Paul is pretty much the only one who writes about the works of the Law. Jesus and the other apostles may touch on the subject briefly, But Paul is the one who deals with the Law. Here's another point, Paul is for the most part the only one who speaks of two different types of works. Do you see a pattern forming. I believe many are taking Paul's arguments against the law and using them with "Good works" when Paul is using the with "Works of the Law." Because Paul agrees with Jesus, John, and James that good works are necessary.

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:02 AM
Maybe they misunderstand. Most of the time when the Scriptures speaks of works they are usually talking about the Law, not good works.

I think at least with Paul this is the case.

Butch5
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:05 AM
Thanks BroRog:

Stay with me here. now could it just be that some wire are getting crossed on this thread??? Whereas works has a couple of different definitions, just throwing that out there to be considered.

That was part of what I was trying to get at. i wanted to see how people understood works and which ones they were using in their determination.

thedee
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:41 AM
Why would we all be doomed?

Because works will not get you there.... only faith will.

kay-gee
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:49 AM
Well any way you look at it BroRog, the Lords Supper was instituted by Christ Himself on the night He was betrayed. Are you going to debate that? Seriously! Are you going to tell me that He didn't command it? What does THIS DO mean? In English please. It's just some man made ritual that popped up? How about we get some real Bible studiers on here and debate it? So the church has been observing this faithfully for 2000 years and they got it all wrong. You come along it you have it all right. Is that how it is?

all the best...

chad
Jun 23rd 2010, 03:04 AM
Hi Butch,

Well to me it would appear that if we are saved by faith + good works, are we not just substituting … “Works of the law” for “Good works.”

In other words, under the Mosaic law, Israel tried to earn their salvation by obeying the law. Doing works which tried to fulfil the law. But the purpose of the law was to point us to Jesus. If we believe that faith + good works grants us salvation, have we not just substituted “works of the law” for “Good works”. How many good works do we need to do in order to “earn our salvation”?

Salvation would therefore be determined by our own efforts of “Good works” and not by grace and gift of God, and not by Jesus sacrifice on the cross.

This is the reason I believe, we are saved by Grace, and not by our own efforts of earning enough “Good works” so that we may receive salvation at Judgement.



I am just trying to find out "Why" people believe, not what they believe. It appears you believe works are not necessary. What is that based on? In you post you quoted Romans 3, which speaks of the Law. The Gentiles were never under the Law, so why would you base you understanding on that passage?

BroRog
Jun 23rd 2010, 03:58 AM
Well any way you look at it BroRog, the Lords Supper was instituted by Christ Himself on the night He was betrayed. Are you going to debate that?Sure, first off, what theologians call "The Lord's supper" was actually a Passover Seder, in which Jesus gave the midrash. In this particular instance, since this was the last time Jesus would eat the Passover with his closest friends, and since his impending death was central on his mind, Jesus reassigns a couple of the symbols from the Passover Seder to fit the occation. So Jesus wasn't inventing a new religion, he was practicing Judaism. Second, it was Paul who began the "love feast" and it was at this feast that the disciples reinacted the final supper between Jesus and his disciples. We have no evidence that any of the other churches had such a feast, and Paul ends up chastizing the Corinthians for their behavior.


Seriously! Are you going to tell me that He didn't command it? What does THIS DO mean? In English please.Sure, again, Jesus was practicing his Judiasm among his closest friends who were also practicing a Jewish ritual dinner. And speaking to Jews about Jewish things he asks them to adopt his midrash whenever they practiced the Seder.


It's just some man made ritual that popped up? How about we get some real Bible studiers on here and debate it? So the church has been observing this faithfully for 2000 years and they got it all wrong. You come along it you have it all right. Is that how it is?I guess so. Such is the power of institutionalized religion. You can get anyone to "believe" and "practice" your religion if you have an army and aren't afraid to use it. And for good measure, don't allow people like me to have access to the Bible so that I might do my own investigation. I thank God that I live in the time of the open book.

dan
Jun 23rd 2010, 06:15 AM
Make your point.

The prophets mentioned were spoken of as casting out demons and performing other wonders and yet something was missing in their relationship with Jesus.

What was it?

It could have been a command by Jesus to do something.

My heart's Desire
Jun 24th 2010, 06:04 AM
To be honest, I don't think Any of us really would know what kind of "work" would save us and if that is the case then one cannot do a work to be saved.

1 Cor 3:15 states "If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.".... even if all of man's works are burned up, he himself is saved....

I have a feeling many of us will be very surprised to find out just what "works" we've done we will get rewards for and which ones are a loss.

The Word tells us that Christ died for our sins. If He died for our sins then what is it that condemns us? Isn't it sin, not works? And if it is not "works" which condemns us then how can "works" save us?
Phillipians 1:6 tells us that Paul is confident that He (Jesus or the Holy Spirit) who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. If Jesus begins the good work in us AND perfects it then Who could get the credit for it? Us or the Lord? Since it would obviously be the Lord Who gets the credit for it then how could we ever say it was our own works that saved us? I just don't see how "works" can save us because even if it did, it would have nothing to do with our own effort but on His and God never fails.
I didn't read the other thread so hope I'm not repeating something.

chad
Jun 24th 2010, 09:45 AM
My heart's Desire,

'Since it would obviously be the Lord Who gets the credit for it then how could we ever say it was our own works that saved us? '

I Agree. Apart from Jesus, we can do nothing.

(John 15:1 NIV) "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. (2) He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

(3) You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. (4) Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

(5) "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. (6) If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

(7) If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
(8) This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
(9) "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

(10) If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. (11) I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.




If Jesus begins the good work in us AND perfects it then Who could get the credit for it? Us or the Lord? Since it would obviously be the Lord Who gets the credit for it then how could we ever say it was our own works that saved us? I just don't see how "works" can save us because even if it did, it would have nothing to do with our own effort but on His and God never fails.
I didn't read the other thread so hope I'm not repeating something.

xsited1
Jun 24th 2010, 12:46 PM
Just what it says my friend, Just what it says.

Here's the passage:


God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
Romans 2:6-11

On the surface, the message seems clear: God will give eternal life to "those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality." However, I'm concerned about context. On the one hand we have "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life." (Jn 3:36), and the other hand we have this. There seems to be a contradiction. I'm obviously missing something.

newinchrist4now
Jun 24th 2010, 05:23 PM
I think they both go together

The Mighty Sword
Jun 24th 2010, 06:02 PM
I'd say yes, it's very possible that wires are being crossed. I believe those who say that salvation is "by faith alone" are rightly saying that our deeds are not meritorious. That is, there isn't anything we can do to obligate God to save us. The others who say that works are necessary, are rightly pointing out that a person who genuinely believes the teachings of Jesus, will follow those teachings in the practices of life, and perhaps increasing in excellencies as he or she matures in the faith. As a Christian grows to maturity, he or she will be kinder, gentler, more patient, more honest, more humble, reaching out to others more often, placing others above themselves more often, looking for ways to express love more often, and so forth.

One more and I promise not to ask anymore questions: Has anyone here bothered to look up the word "Works" in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek and if so what are there meanings.

chad
Jun 24th 2010, 10:00 PM
Works (KJV)
G2041. ergon, er'-gon; from a prim. (but obsol.) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by impl. an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

Rom 4:2, Rom 4:6 ; Rom 9:11; Rom 9:32; Rom 11:6; Rom 13:3; Rom 13:12; 2 Cor 11:15; Gal 2:16; Gal 3:2; Gal 3:5; Gal 3:10; Gal 5:19; Eph 2:9-10; Eph 5:11; Col 1:21; 1 Tim 2:10; 1 Tim 5:10; 1 Tim 5:25; 1 Tim 6:18; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 3:17; 2 Tim 4:14; Tit 1:16; Tit 2:7; Tit 2:14; Tit 3:5; Tit 3:8; Tit 3:14; Heb 1:10; Heb 2:7; Hen 3:9; Heb 4:3; Heb 4:4; Heb 4:10’ Hen 6:1, Heb 9:14; Heb 10:24; Jam 2:14; Jam 2:17; Jam 2:18; Jam 2:20-26; 1 Pet 2:12; 2 Pet 3:10; 1 John 3:8; 1 John 3:12; Rev 2:2; Rev 2:9; Rev 2:13; Rev 2:23; Rev 3:1-2; Rev 3:8; Rev 3:15; Rev 9:20; Rev 14:13; Rev 15:3; Rev 18:6; Rev 20:12-13.

Work (KJV) G2038. ergazomai, er-gad'-zom-ahee; mid. from G2041; to toil (as a task, occupation, etc.), (by impl.) effect, be engaged in or with, etc.:--commit, do, labor for, minister about, trade (by), work.

Mat 7:23; Mat 21:28; Lk 13:14; Jn 5:17; Jn 6:28; Jn 6:30; Jn 9:4; 1 Th 4:11; 2 Th 3:10; 2 Th 3:12;

Work (KJV)
G2041. ergon, er'-gon; from a prim. (but obsol.) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by impl. an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

Mat 26:10; Mark 13:34; Mark 14:6; Jn 4:34; Jn 6:29; Jn 7:21; Jn 10:33; Jn 17:4; Ac 5:38; Ac 13:2; Ac 13:41; Ac 14:26; Ac 15:38; Rom 2:15; Rom 11:6; Rom 14:20; 1 Cor 3:13; 1 Cor 3:14-15; 1 Cor 9:1; 1 Cor 15:58; 1 Cor 16:10; 2 Cor 9:8; Gal 6:4; Eph 4:12; Phil 1:6; Phil 2:30; Col 1:10; 1 Th 1:3; 2 Th 1:11; 2 Th 2:17; 1 Tim 3:1; 1 Tim 5:10; 2 Tim 2:21; 2 Tim 4:5; 2 Tim 4:18; Titus 1:16; Titus 3:1; Heb 6:10; Heb 13:21; James 1:4; James 1:25; 1 Pet 1:17; Rev 22:12.

Work (KJV)
G2039. ergasia, er-gas-ee'-ah; from G2040; occupation; by impl. profit, pains:--craft, diligence, gain, work. Eph 4:19

Work (KJV)
G2040. ergates, er-gat'-ace; from G2041; a toiler; fig. a teacher:--labourer, worker (-men).
Ac 13:41

Work (KJV)
G2716. katergazomai, kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee; from G2596 and G2038; to work fully, i.e. accomplish; by impl. to finish, fashion:--cause, do (deed), perform, work (out). Phil 2:12

Work (KJV)
G1411. dunamis, doo'-nam-is; from G1410; force (lit. or fig.); spec. miraculous power (usually by impl. a miracle itself):--ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work. Mark 6:5

Work (KJV)
G3433. molis, mol'-is; prob. by var. for G3425; with difficulty:--hardly, scarce (-ly), + with much work. Ac 27:16;

Work (KJV)
G1754. energeo, en-erg-eh'-o; from G1756; to be active, efficient:--do, (be) effectual (fervent), be mighty in, shew forth self, work (effectually in). Rom 7:5; 2 Th 2:7;

Work (KJV)
G4903. sunergeo, soon-erg-eh'-o; from G4904; to be a fellow-worker, i.e. co-operate:--help (work) with, work (-er) together. Rom 8:28;

Work (KJV)
G3056. logos, log'-os; from G3004; something said (including the thought); by impl. a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extens. a computation; spec. (with the art. in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work. Rom 9:28

Work (KJV)
G4229. pragma, prag'-mah; from G4238; a deed; by impl. an affair; by extens. an object (material):--business, matter, thing, work. James 3:16




One more and I promise not to ask anymore questions: Has anyone here bothered to look up the word "Works" in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek and if so what are there meanings.

The Mighty Sword
Jun 24th 2010, 11:00 PM
Works (KJV)
G2041. ergon, er'-gon; from a prim. (but obsol.) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by impl. an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

Rom 4:2, Rom 4:6 ; Rom 9:11; Rom 9:32; Rom 11:6; Rom 13:3; Rom 13:12; 2 Cor 11:15; Gal 2:16; Gal 3:2; Gal 3:5; Gal 3:10; Gal 5:19; Eph 2:9-10; Eph 5:11; Col 1:21; 1 Tim 2:10; 1 Tim 5:10; 1 Tim 5:25; 1 Tim 6:18; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 3:17; 2 Tim 4:14; Tit 1:16; Tit 2:7; Tit 2:14; Tit 3:5; Tit 3:8; Tit 3:14; Heb 1:10; Heb 2:7; Hen 3:9; Heb 4:3; Heb 4:4; Heb 4:10’ Hen 6:1, Heb 9:14; Heb 10:24; Jam 2:14; Jam 2:17; Jam 2:18; Jam 2:20-26; 1 Pet 2:12; 2 Pet 3:10; 1 John 3:8; 1 John 3:12; Rev 2:2; Rev 2:9; Rev 2:13; Rev 2:23; Rev 3:1-2; Rev 3:8; Rev 3:15; Rev 9:20; Rev 14:13; Rev 15:3; Rev 18:6; Rev 20:12-13.

Work (KJV) G2038. ergazomai, er-gad'-zom-ahee; mid. from G2041; to toil (as a task, occupation, etc.), (by impl.) effect, be engaged in or with, etc.:--commit, do, labor for, minister about, trade (by), work.

Mat 7:23; Mat 21:28; Lk 13:14; Jn 5:17; Jn 6:28; Jn 6:30; Jn 9:4; 1 Th 4:11; 2 Th 3:10; 2 Th 3:12;

Work (KJV)
G2041. ergon, er'-gon; from a prim. (but obsol.) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by impl. an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

Mat 26:10; Mark 13:34; Mark 14:6; Jn 4:34; Jn 6:29; Jn 7:21; Jn 10:33; Jn 17:4; Ac 5:38; Ac 13:2; Ac 13:41; Ac 14:26; Ac 15:38; Rom 2:15; Rom 11:6; Rom 14:20; 1 Cor 3:13; 1 Cor 3:14-15; 1 Cor 9:1; 1 Cor 15:58; 1 Cor 16:10; 2 Cor 9:8; Gal 6:4; Eph 4:12; Phil 1:6; Phil 2:30; Col 1:10; 1 Th 1:3; 2 Th 1:11; 2 Th 2:17; 1 Tim 3:1; 1 Tim 5:10; 2 Tim 2:21; 2 Tim 4:5; 2 Tim 4:18; Titus 1:16; Titus 3:1; Heb 6:10; Heb 13:21; James 1:4; James 1:25; 1 Pet 1:17; Rev 22:12.

Work (KJV)
G2039. ergasia, er-gas-ee'-ah; from G2040; occupation; by impl. profit, pains:--craft, diligence, gain, work. Eph 4:19

Work (KJV)
G2040. ergates, er-gat'-ace; from G2041; a toiler; fig. a teacher:--labourer, worker (-men).
Ac 13:41

Work (KJV)
G2716. katergazomai, kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee; from G2596 and G2038; to work fully, i.e. accomplish; by impl. to finish, fashion:--cause, do (deed), perform, work (out). Phil 2:12

Work (KJV)
G1411. dunamis, doo'-nam-is; from G1410; force (lit. or fig.); spec. miraculous power (usually by impl. a miracle itself):--ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work. Mark 6:5

Work (KJV)
G3433. molis, mol'-is; prob. by var. for G3425; with difficulty:--hardly, scarce (-ly), + with much work. Ac 27:16;

Work (KJV)
G1754. energeo, en-erg-eh'-o; from G1756; to be active, efficient:--do, (be) effectual (fervent), be mighty in, shew forth self, work (effectually in). Rom 7:5; 2 Th 2:7;

Work (KJV)
G4903. sunergeo, soon-erg-eh'-o; from G4904; to be a fellow-worker, i.e. co-operate:--help (work) with, work (-er) together. Rom 8:28;

Work (KJV)
G3056. logos, log'-os; from G3004; something said (including the thought); by impl. a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extens. a computation; spec. (with the art. in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work. Rom 9:28

Work (KJV)
G4229. pragma, prag'-mah; from G4238; a deed; by impl. an affair; by extens. an object (material):--business, matter, thing, work. James 3:16

My point was the the word works has different meanings, that differ from english. I took a scripture from the Book of Mattew 6:28 and what most folks see as Works defines as:

see GREEK kopto
labour, trouble, weariness.

From kopto; a cut, i.e. (by analogy) toil (as reducing the strength), literally or figuratively; by implication, pains -- labour, + trouble, weariness.

If we take a scripture with the word "Works" in it then it might have a completely different definition than what we believe it means. So each scripture must be adjusted accordingly.

chad
Jun 25th 2010, 01:18 AM
Hi Mighty Sword,

How about this...for Romans 11:6 + Eph 2:8. These two verses uses the word work and works, which translates into Ergon in the Greek.

G2041. ergon, er'-gon; from a prim. (but obsol.) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by impl. an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

(Rom 11:6 KJV) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



My point was the the word works has different meanings, that differ from english. I took a scripture from the Book of Mattew 6:28 and what most folks see as Works defines as:

see GREEK kopto
labour, trouble, weariness.

From kopto; a cut, i.e. (by analogy) toil (as reducing the strength), literally or figuratively; by implication, pains -- labour, + trouble, weariness.

If we take a scripture with the word "Works" in it then it might have a completely different definition than what we believe it means. So each scripture must be adjusted accordingly.

The Mighty Sword
Jun 25th 2010, 01:32 AM
Hi Mighty Sword,

How about this...for Romans 11:6 + Eph 2:8. These two verses uses the word work and works, which translates into Ergon in the Greek.

G2041. ergon, er'-gon; from a prim. (but obsol.) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by impl. an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

(Rom 11:6 KJV) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I think we're onto something here, different defs for works. That could possibly be a slight stumbling block if not translated correctly especially for a newbie and for those of us still learning.

Butch5
Jun 27th 2010, 02:49 AM
Here's the passage:



On the surface, the message seems clear: God will give eternal life to "those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality." However, I'm concerned about context. On the one hand we have "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life." (Jn 3:36), and the other hand we have this. There seems to be a contradiction. I'm obviously missing something.

There's no contradiction my friend, it is both. Works are a part of faith, that is what James says. He says that faith without works is dead, he asks rhetorically can that faith save? The answer is no it cannot. He goes on to tell how Abraham's works worked in conjunction with his faith and the works made his faith complete, they made it a living faith, a faith that is now able to save.

James 2:20-24 ( KJV )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James says that it is both faith and works.

Butch5
Jun 27th 2010, 03:16 AM
Hi Mighty Sword,

How about this...for Romans 11:6 + Eph 2:8. These two verses uses the word work and works, which translates into Ergon in the Greek.

G2041. ergon, er'-gon; from a prim. (but obsol.) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by impl. an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

(Rom 11:6 KJV) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Hi Chad,

There is no problem here, we simply need to look at the context, specifically who is being spoken to. In Romans 11:6 Paul is speaking to the Jewish Christians at Rome and he has been arguing "Against" the necessity of following the Mosaic Law. If you read from Romans 2:17-11:13 you will see many references to the Law. You will also is several references to the Jews. For instance,


Romans 2:17-18 ( KJV )
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Romans 3:1 ( KJV )
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Romans 3:19 ( KJV )
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


Romans 4:1 ( KJV )
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?


Romans 7:1 ( KJV )
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?


Romans 9:3-5 ( KJV )
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Then he turns his attention to the Gentiles

Romans 11:13 ( KJV )
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

You can see all of the references to the Jews and the Law. Take notice that after Paul turns his attention to the Gentiles in 11:13, he only mentions the Law twice in the rest of the book and both time he says that love is the fulfillment of the law.

In Ephesians 2:8 we have Paul again addressing the Mosaic Law. Notice what he says a few verses later.

Ephesians 2:8-13 ( KJV )
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Paul is addressing the Gentiles here and he tells them that they have been saved by faith and not by works. However, he goes on to tell them what works he is speaking of, the reason they are not saved by works because Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition and has abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandment contained in ordinances. That's the Mosaic Law. The reason they are not saved by works is because Christ did away with those works, as Paul said in Romans 10:4, Christ is the end of the law for those who believe. The Judaizers were going behind Paul telling his converts that they needed to follow the Mosaic Law in addition to faith and Paul says no, and explains how Christ is the end of the Law for believers.

chad
Jun 27th 2010, 04:40 AM
I kind of like the KJV translation of Eph 2:8. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

So as Christians we will naturally walk in good works if we are believers and obey his commandments. For Example if we obey the first two of greatest commandments as stated in Mark 12:30-31.

1) Mark 12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
2) Mark 12:31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

Mark 12:32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

If we obey the first two commanments, it is hard not to do good works. Of course, that does not mean we will not do other good works as mentioned in the bible.



I think we're onto something here, different defs for works. That could possibly be a slight stumbling block if not translated correctly especially for a newbie and for those of us still learning.