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LoyalToHim
Jun 21st 2010, 03:12 AM
And since God is not the author of confusion I thought I had better try understand the answer to my question:

Since God created everyone, knowing the beginning from the end, why did He still create some people knowing they would refuse His gift of salvation ending themselves in hell?

I was told by a pastors wife to leave the subject alone and not touch it, but I feel like if I don't at least try searching to understand then how am I going to grow in God? is this one of those questions where it is something that I will never understand because God is far bigger than my human understanding? if so then yes I will put it back on the shelf and leave it there;)

-SEEKING-
Jun 21st 2010, 12:40 PM
That's a good question. I honestly don't know myself. But this I do know. God loves me, and sent His Son to die for me. I can trust that He has my best intentions in mind. I don't think I'll ever understand all the things I don't understand right now, and that's ok. When I see Him, I'll ask Him. But I can't let these things make me forget what He's done for me.

I hope this helps.

MMK
Jun 21st 2010, 01:10 PM
Good to try an tackle these things in christian fellowship although a complete answer may not be had this side of eternity.
I agree with ninja.
God has a people they he chose for Himself before the world existed, How He came to the decision of who those people would be, i dont think anyone can ever know while in this world. Likewise the people who would not be saved, those who would be lost, well that is a truly humbling issue and makes the believer all the more thankfull and ought to humble us daily and praise him the more fervently. Yet God is assesible to all, salvation is a free gift and those who do not take it are fully responsible. God is just, fair, patient and loving and Loves to save but we need to seek him and want him. All who seek Him will find Him and those who find Him have been found of God, God draws us to himself it is a mystery to me why i was chosen and not someone else. it is such a wonderfull thing to be saved that it will be praising His name for ever and ever and ever as a mark of how gratefull we are and how He deserves it for what He has done for us. The lost,,, hmmm it such a hard subject very very hard to comprehend.

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2010, 01:55 PM
And since God is not the author of confusion I thought I had better try understand the answer to my question:

Since God created everyone, knowing the beginning from the end, why did He still create some people knowing they would refuse His gift of salvation ending themselves in hell?

I was told by a pastors wife to leave the subject alone and not touch it, but I feel like if I don't at least try searching to understand then how am I going to grow in God? is this one of those questions where it is something that I will never understand because God is far bigger than my human understanding? if so then yes I will put it back on the shelf and leave it there;)

It all comes down to the will of God, from the begining since mans fall God has prepared a way that none should perish, however God has never forced his will upon man to do his will, but he has warned us what will happen to all that do not do his will.

Mt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Firstfruits

TexasBeliever
Jun 21st 2010, 02:00 PM
Part of God's ability is to know what the future is. Nevertheless, he made human beings with free will, to choose what they will or will not do, will or will not believe. It is my personal belief that God created us to prove something very important to the first beings He created; the angels.

The angels had/have every advantage over human beings; they don't have bodies that decay or hurt or die. They don't live in want or fear or sadness. They are in the very presense of God, and yet the scriptures say that over a third of them turned away from God to follow Lucifer.

God wanted to prove two things to them and to the ones who remained faithful; 1. That He was justified in His punishment and banishment of those who turned against Him, and 2. that the humans He created, though far inferior to the angels and never having seen His glory, would believe in Him and follow Him.

LoyalToHim
Jun 22nd 2010, 03:36 AM
Thankyou all for the clarity and scripture. I'm not going to keep this question on the shelf anymore but rather accept that there are just some things we may never understand this side of Heaven. I love the insights you all offered, not only did it make things a bit clearer but there was alot of wisdom in there, some things I hadn't even considered.

dan
Jun 22nd 2010, 04:34 PM
And since God is not the author of confusion I thought I had better try understand the answer to my question:

Since God created everyone, knowing the beginning from the end, why did He still create some people knowing they would refuse His gift of salvation ending themselves in hell?

I was told by a pastors wife to leave the subject alone and not touch it, but I feel like if I don't at least try searching to understand then how am I going to grow in God? is this one of those questions where it is something that I will never understand because God is far bigger than my human understanding? if so then yes I will put it back on the shelf and leave it there;)

...and build, followers that desire "good".

In my quest for "equal justice under the (civilian) law" and acceptance of myself by my peers, I questioned many of my feelings and suppositions about many things, and found that God is the only thing worthy of my dedication and service.

Didn't you do something similar?

LookingUp
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:01 PM
And since God is not the author of confusion I thought I had better try understand the answer to my question:

Since God created everyone, knowing the beginning from the end, why did He still create some people knowing they would refuse His gift of salvation ending themselves in hell?

I was told by a pastors wife to leave the subject alone and not touch it, but I feel like if I don't at least try searching to understand then how am I going to grow in God? is this one of those questions where it is something that I will never understand because God is far bigger than my human understanding? if so then yes I will put it back on the shelf and leave it there;)Some should perhaps leave the question alone, because the one who doesn’t feel he has satisfactorily answered this question, the one who is unable to reconcile it completely, may lose faith. I know a couple people who gave up the faith because of being unable to answer this very thing. I, on the other hand, would not let the question go and still haven’t. I think it’s a perfectly appropriate and honest question.

I think it’s impossible to answer for those who believe in individual predestination (i.e. from birth, certain individuals are chosen to go to heaven and others are not). It is much easier to explain for those who believe that God doesn’t “choose” beforehand, He simply happens to “know” beforehand, because He dwells outside of time and can see the future before it happens. It is most simple to explain for those who believe that God doesn’t know “as settled fact” beforehand who will and who will not ultimately choose Him. He knows every possible choice that person will make, but He doesn’t know the actual choice as “settled fact” until after the person makes the choice in “real time” (i.e. “after the fact”).

While keeping in mind the Scriptures that Firstfruits pointed out, consider the following. God “technically” did not create the entire human race (i.e. personally “decide” who would be born). God created Adam and Eve and gave them the unconditional (i.e. no strings attached) gift of procreation and the gift of free will to participate in it. Once a couple chooses to procreate, God takes part in the “knitting” process (Psalm 139), but He honors the results of their free will choices (and all before them) and puts the child together based on the couple’s genetics and allows the child to grow up in the environment that those free will human beings before him created. From the Garden onward, God has allowed mankind to participate in much of the writing of the book of history with “his own pen” and as time has moved forward, mankind has chosen to write some pretty nasty things. These free will choices have led to the world we see and live in today. As God knits together a child, His hands are “tied” to an extent—He must follow through according to the unconditional gift He chose to give to mankind, even if He knows that particular child will eventually go to hell at the end of his life (and in the third view above, as God knits He doesn’t know who will go to hell at the end of his life). God can’t stop or interfere with the portion of the unfolding plan that mankind is writing until He is ready to call it quits for the entire plan. And apparently even God’s readiness to call it quits is partially limited by our free will choices (2 Peter 3:11-12).

Paul writes, “We are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” God is personally making an appeal, begging all to be reconciled to Him because anyone can be reconciled to God who chooses to do so. Would God beg a person to be reconciled to Him that He knows for certain is going to hell?

xsited1
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:25 PM
...

Since God created everyone, knowing the beginning from the end, why did He still create some people knowing they would refuse His gift of salvation ending themselves in hell?

...

The only way I can reconcile this with my limited human mind is if God does not know with 100% certainty the beginning from the end. Rather, He has a good idea what will happen, but man's free will creates uncertainty. His hope is that we all choose to be saved. Yet even as I type this, I know it's not scriptural. Like Ninja, when I see Him, I'll ask. My response will most likely be, "yes, of course!"

LoyalToHim
Jun 23rd 2010, 01:12 AM
I'm not sure if i'm mis understanding the last two oppinions (i've never heard this view before so its completly new to me), but isn't God "All knowing" knowing the beginning from the end?

WOW, I am so used to being taught over the years that God created each of us (choosing to make a humans, placing them into the womb, does that make sense?) if what is being said here is correct then that would answer so much to my question. This is something for me to ponder on most certainly.

LookingUp
Jun 23rd 2010, 02:22 AM
I'm not sure if i'm mis understanding the last two oppinions (i've never heard this view before so its completly new to me), but isn't God "All knowing" knowing the beginning from the end?Isaiah 46:9-11

The Lord says, “I am God, and there is none other; I am God, and there is no one like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying ‘My purpose shall stand, and I will fulfill my intention.’”

To distinguish himself from the dead idols Israel was devoted to, the Lord displayed his ability to do what dead idols cannot do: namely, control the flow of history. Hence the Lord says, “My purpose shall stand, and I will fulfill my intention,” which is why he can declare “from ancient times things not yet done.” For God to have this foreknowledge he need only know his own purposes and intentions. Unless one is willing to believe that everything throughout world history (including all evil) reflects God’s purposes and intentions, this verse can’t be used to defend the notion that everything throughout world history is foreknown.

Christus Victor Ministries


WOW, I am so used to being taught over the years that God created each of us (choosing to make a humans, placing them into the womb, does that make sense?) if what is being said here is correct then that would answer so much to my question. This is something for me to ponder on most certainly.Feel free to ask questions. If I can answer, I will.