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Brother Mark
Jul 13th 2010, 06:57 PM
I started this thread in this forum because it is more about discussion than debate. It's ok to disagree in friendly tones here. So let's discuss!

When I look at religion in Jesus day, there are three things that stand out. 1. The religious system resisted Christ. 2. There were conservative (pharisees) and liberal (sadducees) parts of this system. 3. The politics of the day or the world, only got involved because the pharisees and sadducees made life difficult for them otherwise. In scripture, God warns us of the leaven of all three systems. He has said beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, the leaven of the Sadducees and the leaven of Herod. Oh, not in one verse, but in the gospels. It was the religious crowd (the pharisees and sadducees) that wanted Jesus crucified. That system is still resisting Christ even today.

With that in mind, the question then becomes, how can one tell the difference between the church of God, the pharisee system, the sadducee system, and the system of Herod? In this thread, all three are up for discussion, but to start with, let's focus on the pharisees.

First, Jesus said this about the Pharisees and scribes.

Luke 11:44
44 "Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over them are unaware of it."
NASU

What was Jesus saying? In the OT, he said this...

Num 19:16
16 'Also, anyone who in the open field touches one who has been slain with a sword or who has died naturally, or a human bone or a grave, shall be unclean for seven days.
NASU

So when someone walks over a grave that they are unaware of, they become unclean and don't even know it! It is possible for us to go to church, be around pharisees and become unclean and not even know it!!!

How can one determine what is of the leaven of the pharisees and what is not? Well, that would make for a very long thread. But for starters, here's one way;

Pharisees were often more concerned over how and when healings took place instead of having concern for the one being healed. There desire was more that things be done "right" than that a person experience mercy.

Luke 13:14-17
14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, "There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day." 15 But the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him? 16 "And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?" 17 As He said this, all His opponents were being humiliated; and the entire crowd was rejoicing over all the glorious things being done by Him.
NASU

I know this scripture says "synagogue official" but there are many others where the pharisees did the same thing. The point is, that Jesus healed in a way that offended their religious tenets. As a result, they discredited the entire thing. This was an on going battle between Jesus and the religious crowd for much of his ministry.

In conclusion, take note when a church is more concerned over law than over people. Jesus didn't ever say it was OK to sin. He did love people. And he never backed away from calling sin what it was. However, he also didn't let religious tradition get in the way of his ministry. He understood the ultimate law was loving God and the next was loving people. When a church has a list of do(s) and don't(s) and doesn't show mercy to those who are suffering and in need of healing, then something is amiss! When those laws become an impediment to folks getting help, that is a big warning sign.

I suppose we can see where the thread goes from here. There's a lot to talk about if anyone is interested.

Kingsdaughter
Jul 16th 2010, 02:58 PM
Remember the story in the bible about the woman who was caught in adultery? The scribes and pharisees brought her to Jesus and according to the law, they had every right to stone her, but Jesus did not commend them for their outward obedience, instead He dealt with their inward sin. It is not different today with pharisees in the church because they are still more concerned about the outward appereance, yet inwardly they are filled with wickedness, they load burdens too heavy to carry on their church members and they themselves are not willing to carry.They completely miss it!They miss the whole point.

John 8:3-11 (New King James Version)

3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26382a)] in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26383b)] us that such should be stoned.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26383c)] But what do You say?”[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26383d)] 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26384e)]
7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26385f)] and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26387g)] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26388h)] “Woman, where are those accusers of yours?[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26388i)] Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26389j)] sin no more.”

kay-gee
Jul 17th 2010, 12:09 PM
Just what exactly are these heavy burdens being placed on church members by church leaders?

all the best...

JLM-223
Jul 17th 2010, 10:11 PM
In conclusion, take note when a church is more concerned over law than over people. Jesus didn't ever say it was OK to sin. He did love people. And he never backed away from calling sin what it was. However, he also didn't let religious tradition get in the way of his ministry. He understood the ultimate law was loving God and the next was loving people. When a church has a list of do(s) and don't(s) and doesn't show mercy to those who are suffering and in need of healing, then something is amiss! When those laws become an impediment to folks getting help, that is a big warning sign.

I suppose we can see where the thread goes from here. There's a lot to talk about if anyone is interested.

I think it's important to distinguish between interpreting / following scripture vs. how we deal with others based on these values. I think the Pharisees had the right idea insofar as upholding the Word of God, and we should do the same today. But they ran into trouble when they let their rituals get in the way of meeting people's needs right there and then. This led to hypocrisy, and Christ could easily see this in the religious leaders of His day. Sad to say, this happens in today's churches as well! Question is, how do we avoid this trap?

Kingsdaughter
Jul 20th 2010, 09:15 PM
Just what exactly are these heavy burdens being placed on church members by church leaders?

all the best...

The burden of trying to be justified by obeying the law.

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2010, 09:18 PM
The burden of trying to be justified by obeying the law.

Yep. And the burden of keeping traditions. Even the burden of justice under the law (stone that woman!). They forgot about compassion and mercy. Leaving off those two things leaves a heavy burden on the one holding to the rest.

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2010, 09:19 PM
I think it's important to distinguish between interpreting / following scripture vs. how we deal with others based on these values. I think the Pharisees had the right idea insofar as upholding the Word of God, and we should do the same today. But they ran into trouble when they let their rituals get in the way of meeting people's needs right there and then. This led to hypocrisy, and Christ could easily see this in the religious leaders of His day. Sad to say, this happens in today's churches as well! Question is, how do we avoid this trap?

But they didn't uphold the Word of God. Jesus said of them...

John 5:39-40
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
NIV

We avoid the trap when we focus on Jesus instead of do's and don'ts and laws. When we behold the glory of the Lord, we are changed into his image.

2 Cor 3:18
18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
NIV

Kingsdaughter
Jul 20th 2010, 09:20 PM
Yep, if youre going to go that route, then you have to obey the whole law, every minute of every second of every day, in order to be justified! a heavy burden indeed, it is IMPOSSIBLE, the only Man who could do that is Jesus! He fullfilled the law and the only reason I obey the laws of God is because He's living in me!!!!

JLM-223
Jul 21st 2010, 08:16 PM
But they didn't uphold the Word of God. Jesus said of them...

John 5:39-40
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
NIV

We avoid the trap when we focus on Jesus instead of do's and don'ts and laws. When we behold the glory of the Lord, we are changed into his image.

2 Cor 3:18
18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
NIV

I guess I should have clarified what I said. The Pharisees observed the Laws of the OT (which was the only scripture they had at that time), and the Gospel that Christ presented was quite foreign to them! Certainly there were some righteous Pharisees (Nicodemus being one example), but most fell into hypocrisy, even they may have devoutly observed their rituals! The point I was making is that for many of those who call themselves Christians today, some things never seem to change!

Moxie
Jul 21st 2010, 11:52 PM
Right, the mindset of some is, "DO". Do it right, don't do it wrong, do it, don't do it....and it's not that we shouldn't be workers or have fruit to show but what is our heart's motives behind the actions?

kay-gee
Jul 22nd 2010, 11:20 PM
I still want to know what heavy burdens are being placed on modern Christians by these "supposed" Pharisaic leaders.

all the best...

Kingsdaughter
Jul 24th 2010, 08:01 AM
The burden of trying to live the christian life WITHOUT the Holy Spirit,the burden of thinking that the only way God will forgive, accept and love you is if you follow rules 1 through 100. The burden of thinking that you are only half saved by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood on the cross and the other half is up to you. The burden of unbelief.

JohnDB
Jul 24th 2010, 01:34 PM
Sorry Mark,
Gonna disagree with some of your assessment of the Pharisees and Sadducee. There were other parties as well that played important roles in New Testament history and culture. One was the Essene and the fourth was the Zealotes.

The Sadducee party was rich and the ruling party that controlled the Temple. (The Roman Government set them in Charge) They actually were rather smart though as a rule and were very fluent in the scriptures for so many Generations that they had a much better understanding of the scriptures usually than the Pharisees or the other parties. (religion was politics in those days....they weren't separate)
A Sadducee customary greeting to anyone was, "You know nothing at all".
Obviously they were rather arrogant with their knowledge. They regularly "suffered and put up with Pharisee, Essene, and Zealotes demands" ignoring them usually. They were concerned with the spiritual health of Israel. But being disconnected from the common man (by their own actions) really didn't help their perceptions of how to lead the people back towards God.

The Pharisees were rather liberal. They regularly did hang out with the common man...that was where most of them came from. There was (and still is currently) syncretecism with other religions of the Middle East and beyond which were infiltrating Judaism and subsequently Christianity. The Pharisees were usually more interested in telling people what they wanted to hear than anything...so they went along with many of these beliefs....even when they knew better.
Some were more liberal than others in what particularly was sin or not...what was the proper grounds for divorce, how to go about measuring the water for hand washing. Whether corporate sin was responsible for birth defects or individual sin....This was the largest group of political/religious parties there was.

The Essenes were an extremely strict group. So very much into ritual purity. They wouldn't associate with even common Jews...never eating a meal with any of the others except fellow Essenes. They also had a devotion to scriptures and libraries. They were the original authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls that has influenced our understanding of scriptures today. They regularly took ritual baths on daily to weekly basis and wore white robes. John the Baptist came from this group and was kicked out when he began to wear camel hair and baptized common people into the Levitical Priesthood.

Zealotes were a rather radical group. Very much into putting into action and militant action of freedom for God's special chosen race. They led the fights and stirred the pot for all of Israel's battles with anyone. (and the list was long and endless for them) Everyone from the Samaritans to the Romans. They were racist in a fashion that really makes little sense. (but I never understood racism anyway) Jewishness was everything to these people...the more "jewish" a person was the better....regardless of their appearance. Etheopian Jew was accepted fully while a greek-Jew was rejected for being less Jewish. Heritage and parentage being all important. The Zealotes were rather a small party after meeting up with the Roman army several times. (They lost every time) They considered themselves to be the Messiah's front military line of assault for when He came to free his people.

All of these tendencies are present today in modern era Christians. You are so right about that.
Finding my place in any of these groups tendencies makes me nervous that I ain't doing something right.

Brother Mark
Jul 26th 2010, 02:36 AM
Sorry Mark,
Gonna disagree with some of your assessment of the Pharisees and Sadducee. There were other parties as well that played important roles in New Testament history and culture. One was the Essene and the fourth was the Zealotes.

The Sadducee party was rich and the ruling party that controlled the Temple. (The Roman Government set them in Charge) They actually were rather smart though as a rule and were very fluent in the scriptures for so many Generations that they had a much better understanding of the scriptures usually than the Pharisees or the other parties. (religion was politics in those days....they weren't separate)
A Sadducee customary greeting to anyone was, "You know nothing at all".

Yet, Jesus resonded to them "You know not the scriptures nor the power of God". Why? Because they denied a resurrection.


Obviously they were rather arrogant with their knowledge. They regularly "suffered and put up with Pharisee, Essene, and Zealotes demands" ignoring them usually. They were concerned with the spiritual health of Israel. But being disconnected from the common man (by their own actions) really didn't help their perceptions of how to lead the people back towards God.

The Pharisees were rather liberal. They regularly did hang out with the common man...that was where most of them came from. There was (and still is currently) syncretecism with other religions of the Middle East and beyond which were infiltrating Judaism and subsequently Christianity. The Pharisees were usually more interested in telling people what they wanted to hear than anything...so they went along with many of these beliefs....even when they knew better.
Some were more liberal than others in what particularly was sin or not...what was the proper grounds for divorce, how to go about measuring the water for hand washing. Whether corporate sin was responsible for birth defects or individual sin....This was the largest group of political/religious parties there was.

Yet, they condemned Jesus for eating with "sinners".


The Essenes were an extremely strict group. So very much into ritual purity. They wouldn't associate with even common Jews...never eating a meal with any of the others except fellow Essenes. They also had a devotion to scriptures and libraries. They were the original authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls that has influenced our understanding of scriptures today. They regularly took ritual baths on daily to weekly basis and wore white robes. John the Baptist came from this group and was kicked out when he began to wear camel hair and baptized common people into the Levitical Priesthood.

It is speculated that John the Baptist was an esene. But since scripture doesn't address, I didn't either.


Zealotes were a rather radical group. Very much into putting into action and militant action of freedom for God's special chosen race. They led the fights and stirred the pot for all of Israel's battles with anyone. (and the list was long and endless for them) Everyone from the Samaritans to the Romans. They were racist in a fashion that really makes little sense. (but I never understood racism anyway) Jewishness was everything to these people...the more "jewish" a person was the better....regardless of their appearance. Etheopian Jew was accepted fully while a greek-Jew was rejected for being less Jewish. Heritage and parentage being all important. The Zealotes were rather a small party after meeting up with the Roman army several times. (They lost every time) They considered themselves to be the Messiah's front military line of assault for when He came to free his people.

All of these tendencies are present today in modern era Christians. You are so right about that.
Finding my place in any of these groups tendencies makes me nervous that I ain't doing something right.

Jesus warned specifically about the leaven of the pharisees, sadducees and Herod. It was for this reason I limited it to those three. The others would make an interesting study, but not so much for this thread. ;)

Brother Mark
Jul 26th 2010, 02:40 AM
The burden of trying to live the christian life WITHOUT the Holy Spirit,the burden of thinking that the only way God will forgive, accept and love you is if you follow rules 1 through 100. The burden of thinking that you are only half saved by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood on the cross and the other half is up to you. The burden of unbelief.

Or overlooking that God desires mercy and compassion.

Kingsdaughter
Jul 27th 2010, 04:09 AM
Or overlooking that God desires mercy and compassion.

Yes, He has shown mercy and compassion towards me in such a way that I could never ever repay Him, so I offer up myself as a living sacrafice to Him, I am His. Should I not show the same mercy and compassion towards others that He has shown me?

MoreMercy
Aug 5th 2010, 07:40 PM
Nice thread, amen!

We do indeed have modern sadducees and pharisees among us today, some were and are still deceived and some knowingly and willingly cover/confuse the truth and knowingly and willingly rob and murder my brothers and sister in the family Christ adopted me into, amen!

Bless you brothermark for this opportunity for me to share.
I hope my input doesn't derail your threads topic.
I see the sadducees and pharisees the same way Jesus said He saw them: as ones who confess to be of the tribe of Juda (children of Jacob) but are not.
A good study of the return from captivity of the tribe of Juda has feed my spirit to understand Jesus's words concerning the sadducees and pharisees it sparked interest in me to know who these groups of people were and when and why they appeared in Hebrew history.
I have learned that the vass majority of the sadducees and pharisees were feeding off of Jacobs children with the burdens of their rule or social position, but only because the said children were disobedient by allowing the sadducees and pharisees to rule over them book of Daniel, Ezra and Nehemiah, Father ordained only the tribe of Levi to do rule over them and later ordained a king to rule over them at their request book of Genesis Exodus Kings and Samuel. So in my opinion the children of Jacob got their just rewards to teach and bless those who understand the situation those disobedient children of Jacob found themselves in and how they got there.


Bless you kingsdaughter for this opportunity for me to share.
Another thing I want to share will find stern opposition but I will not debate it because I can not teach, but I can share.
The account in new testament letters of the adulterous woman brought to Christ to be condemned is Christ using that situation to teach those present and their peers who are willing to feed on it that He has the authority to forgive mans SIN.
In the days of the pharisees and sadducees none but Father had authority to forgive sin and it was blasphemy to any child of Jacob's ears to hear anything or anyone but Father has that authority.

The LAW all of the LAW had and still has the authority to convict man of SIN and the power to reveal any abominable thing I do under the sun. Christ said that the evidence of our love of Father is our obedience to His word.
You either love your Father by obedience or you don't by disobedience.
...The only thing in Fathers word that has been un-ordain by Father's authority is blood sacrifice by His children, I am required to be obedient to all of Fathers word with the exception of blood sacrifice.
Father chose a family of 12 tribes to be a peculiar(treasured) people to Himself those peculiar-treasured people lived to bless those who feed and learn from their history.
Jesus adopted me into that family I am not separate from them, what is sin to them is sin to me if something that they do Father says is abominable to Him then to me it is also abominable for me to do.
And obviously what Fathers says is a sin for them is also a sin for me, amen!

Father ordained Christ Jesus as OUR doctrine, I have learned all that has sustained and renewed me from Jesus's recorded rebukes, corrections and exhortations to the children of Jacob.

IMINXTC
Aug 6th 2010, 12:28 AM
Mod note:

This thread has been moved to Bible Chat because it leads to debate. Growing in Christ is not a forum open for debate.

Thanks for your understanding.