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A820djd
Aug 9th 2010, 04:26 PM
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB):note:

HisLeast
Aug 9th 2010, 04:36 PM
Is what we view as slavery today functionally identical to the slavery being discussed in these scriptures?

markedward
Aug 9th 2010, 05:07 PM
Not in the slightest.

RabbiKnife
Aug 9th 2010, 05:10 PM
Jesus never said anything about slavery to my knowledge.

A820djd
Aug 9th 2010, 06:01 PM
It sounds like the same type of slaves as yesteryear to me, yeah.

If they don't listen, kill them.

HisLeast
Aug 9th 2010, 06:09 PM
If they don't listen, kill them.

Is that what the text says or what you want it to say so you can be angry at it?

TexUs
Aug 9th 2010, 06:15 PM
Where does it say "don't listen, kill them"????

moonglow
Aug 9th 2010, 08:07 PM
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB):note:

None of those verses were Jesus speaking..which is what I think some of the objection is too here. Second, no slavery was completely different in the bible then what we see now a days. Now a days for instance, children and women are forced to be sex slaves against the will and children forced to work long hours or be beaten.

You need to remember the Jews at times were slaves themselves and God saved them from slavery. There were many different types of slavery in the bible. In one type the person burrowed money from someone then worked for them 'as a slave' until the debt was paid off. One thing we have to consider when reading the bible is 'who' it was written too...and the time period it was written in. It was written during a time when kings still sat on thrones...people rode into battle on horse backs using spears and shooting arrows, battled with swords. Having alot of livestock and children meant a person was rich. People lived off the land. The culture was completely different then as to compared to now. When wars broke out the winning army would usually plunder the enemies land taking their livestock, their gold and sometimes their people. (Just watch any movies where the time frame was similar to this...all I can think of is Robin Hood right now...:lol: )

Here is a good article on it:

Question: "Does the Bible condone slavery?"

Answer: There is a tendency to look at slavery as something of the past. But it is estimated that there are today over 12 million people in the world who are subject to slavery: forced labor, sex trade, inheritable property, etc. As those who have been redeemed from the slavery of sin, followers of Jesus Christ should be the foremost champions of ending human slavery in the world today. The question arises, though, why does the Bible not speak out strongly against slavery? Why does the Bible, in fact, seem to support the practice of human slavery?

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).

Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.

Slavery now many times happens in nations where they go after their own people..the poorest of the poor. They lie to parents saying they will provide a better life for their children..then force little children to work in brothels or being beaten if they don't..where adult men rape them..one after another after another...:cry:

Of course God doesn't think that is ok. Slavery has changed drastically over time and only gotten worse. :cry:

God bless

daughter
Aug 9th 2010, 08:20 PM
The Luke passage was Jesus speaking. Also, Jesus does talk about slavery in parables.

moonglow
Aug 9th 2010, 08:46 PM
The Luke passage was Jesus speaking. Also, Jesus does talk about slavery in parables.

Ok I guess I over looked that one...I always thought the servants were paid servants not slaves..:hmm:


God bless

Amos_with_goats
Aug 9th 2010, 08:56 PM
I do not see the idea of physical slavery being supported in the teachings of Christ. The fact that it was being practiced lead to it's being adresed in scripture.. many topics are addressed that are not advocated... divorce, slavery, etc...

There are worse forms of slavery then being in physical bonds.

John 8:31-36 (New King James Version)

The Truth Shall Make You Free

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

TexUs
Aug 9th 2010, 09:19 PM
The slavery in old testament times wasn't the same as what we're familiar with. A lot of times slaves were people working off debt.
I've always said loans today are just a form of modern slavery.

RabbiKnife
Aug 9th 2010, 09:33 PM
I've always said loans today are just a form of modern slavery.

As is social security, welfare, unemployment benefits, Section 8 housing, food stamps, farm subsidies, etc., etc., etc.

TexUs
Aug 9th 2010, 09:55 PM
As is social security, welfare, unemployment benefits, Section 8 housing, food stamps, farm subsidies, etc., etc., etc.
And the $80,000 toilet seats the military buys, LOL.

MoreMercy
Aug 9th 2010, 10:44 PM
I have not looked up the original words used when Jesus mentions slaves or when OT mentions slaves, but I do know that Mosaic law allowed Jews to indenture themselves as servants to another Jew for a period of seven years which is as close to slavery that the Jews were allowed to practice.
Jews may have been able to take on Gentile indentured servants also, I don't know, its been a long time since I've looked at these subjects.

So, maybe the words in our bibles have been translated indentured servant to slave, easy thing to check out with an online bible concordance or a bible concordance book, take your pick.
Give it a look Scottizzle

Father bless you and yours.

Amos_with_goats
Aug 9th 2010, 11:45 PM
As is social security, welfare, unemployment benefits, Section 8 housing, food stamps, farm subsidies, etc., etc., etc.

Absolutely, and arguably more sinister as they seem to be a gift, or expression of love when they are indeed chains that bind with a force that can be more difficult to escape then iron.


I've always said loans today are just a form of modern slavery.

Yes! Again, modern ideas on the topic are in opposition to scriptural wisdom. Many years ago I went though a 'financial counselor' course and recall having long discussions with the instructor about the fallacy of the idea of 'good debt'. Yes, I understand the principal of using OPM, but can not abide by it's description as 'good'. :hmm:

ProjectPeter
Aug 9th 2010, 11:53 PM
Slavery is slavery when you are a slave. Certainly... some had master's that were better than others... but I suspect being owned by someone kind of puts a damper on life. Did Jesus support it? He spoke of it and didn't dog it that we have any writing on. We certainly know that Jesus was about justice so he would have been opposed to the slave owners who were cruel and unjust. But He didn't speak out against it. It was the way it was. We call it sinful today because of the abuses of slave owners... here in America we think of the Civil War times and what all went on in regard to slavery. That being said... if you have a biblical slave owner that treated their slaves in a biblical manner... there would be no sin in that if one was in a nation where slavery wasn't illegal.

Remember... New Testament epistle's had direction to both the Christian slaves and the Christian slave owners.

TexUs
Aug 10th 2010, 03:02 AM
Yes! Again, modern ideas on the topic are in opposition to scriptural wisdom. Many years ago I went though a 'financial counselor' course and recall having long discussions with the instructor about the fallacy of the idea of 'good debt'. Yes, I understand the principal of using OPM, but can not abide by it's description as 'good'. :hmm:
Yea don't get me started on the debt... The banks are just a bunch of legalized theft and the credit system rewards those that go into debt.
What with this economy and stuff I made sure to eliminate ALL of mine, sans the house... Good feeling ;)

nzyr
Aug 10th 2010, 03:13 AM
As is social security, welfare, unemployment benefits, Section 8 housing, food stamps, farm subsidies, etc., etc., etc.

That's not slavery.

nzyr
Aug 10th 2010, 03:15 AM
The slavery in old testament times wasn't the same as what we're familiar with. A lot of times slaves were people working off debt. I may be wrong but people weren't really sentenced to prison like they are today. If anyone stole or they owed money they had to pay it back somehow. Slavery was one of the ways they did this. Also some slaves were prisoners of war. I believe slaves could eventually get their freedom back. It wasn't institutionalized slavery like that which occurred in the new world.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(Galatians 3:25-29)

TexUs
Aug 10th 2010, 03:33 AM
That's not slavery.

Let's see, I work at my job and money gets forced out of my pocket that benefits the person getting it, and not me. (The Government).

That's not slavery? Doing work for someone else's profit with none of your own?

I don't know if you realize but at least here in America, 3-4 months each year you work for the US Government. People really don't stop to think about how much $$$ is being sucked out of their pockets each month.

RockSolid
Aug 10th 2010, 05:27 AM
It sounds like the same type of slaves as yesteryear to me, yeah.

If they don't listen, kill them.

This is a popular atheist arguement that they use to make God out to be a tyrant, it is easily debunked (most are) by just reading scriptures. There are more than one kind of slavery. Kidnapping someone and forcing them to work is strictly unscriptural.
Exodus 21:16 Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 24:7 If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.
Kidnapping someone,enslaving them, and even buying them was a crime punishable by death.
This isn't the kind of slavery that Paul and these other writers are talking about.

Back in those days, if you couldn't pay off your bills, you could sell yourself (or in some cases yourself and entire family) in to slavery to the person you were in debted to, to work off your debt.
You made yourself a slave. It was something a person chose to do, it was not forced upon them. Also, God helped out those "slaves"!
Deuteronomy 15:12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free.
13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed.
14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

The max you could be a slave is seven years! Then all your debts were cancelled. Wish this still was around today, heh.
Just another example of a merciful God!

daughter
Aug 10th 2010, 01:42 PM
"And a slave does not abide in the house forever..." That phrase just jumped out at me from Moonglow's post... I think when Jesus talks of slavery He's referring to the Jewish form of slavery whereby someone worked off their debt for a period of seven years, and were then let go. Because Roman slave was perpetual, whereas Jewish slavery did end up with the slave leaving the household. So, it's obvious from that clause that Jesus is referring to temporary slavery, not what we nowadays consider slavery.

HisLeast
Aug 10th 2010, 01:47 PM
Let's see, I work at my job and money gets forced out of my pocket that benefits the person getting it, and not me. (The Government).

That's not slavery? Doing work for someone else's profit with none of your own?
Unless you're living in a soveriegn anarchy or commune, I would argue that taxes are not slavery, but rather a social contract between citizens and their government.

Plus you get to keep the majority of what you make. I don't like taxes any more than the next guy, but I can't avoid the fact that I decide where the vast majority of my dollars go. Slaves have rarely had that kind of choice. I can worship God according to my own conscience. I can vote how I like. I can hold any political ideology I want. I can speak vociferously against any administration and assemble with like minded people to do so. This is not slavery.

TexUs
Aug 10th 2010, 02:19 PM
Unless you're living in a soveriegn anarchy or commune, I would argue that taxes are not slavery, but rather a social contract between citizens and their government.
A contract requires both parties to sign off on it, and sorry but I didn't sign off on anything. Congress just did it.


Plus you get to keep the majority of what you make. I don't like taxes any more than the next guy, but I can't avoid the fact that I decide where the vast majority of my dollars go.
Hence why it's dubbed "Modern" slavery. You own a house and are indebted to the bank, you're working for that bank to pay off that house. While it may not be directly its still modern slavery.


I can worship God according to my own conscience. I can vote how I like. I can hold any political ideology I want. I can speak vociferously against any administration and assemble with like minded people to do so. This is not slavery.
Citizen rights is not the same as slavery.

HisLeast
Aug 10th 2010, 02:35 PM
A contract requires both parties to sign off on it, and sorry but I didn't sign off on anything. Congress just did it.
I said "social contract". Your acceptance of this social contract is implicit in your remaining in this society which, interestingly enough, you are also free not to do. Unlike real slaves, you are free to move where ever you like.


Hence why it's dubbed "Modern" slavery. You own a house and are indebted to the bank, you're working for that bank to pay off that house. While it may not be directly its still modern slavery.
Oh please. Why not call it "Modern Incestual Sodomy" just to make it sound even more scary and unpaletable. Don't want to pay off the house? Don't buy a dang house. Don't want to be indebted to a bank? Don't take out loans.


Citizen rights is not the same as slavery.
The preponderance of rights is evidence that we are not slaves.

TexUs
Aug 10th 2010, 02:49 PM
I said "social contract". Your acceptance of this social contract is implicit in your remaining in this society which, interestingly enough, you are also free not to do. Unlike real slaves, you are free to move where ever you like.
So I can simply move and my debts are taken care of? :rolleyes:
Nope, still like slavery. While I might not be physically chained to a master, I am chained by law and name to one.


The preponderance of rights is evidence that we are not slaves.
Hence "modern slavery"

HisLeast
Aug 10th 2010, 02:52 PM
So I can simply move and my debts are taken care of? :rolleyes:
Nope, still like slavery. While I might not be physically chained to a master, I am chained by law and name to one.
But wait a minute... I thought we were talking about taxes being the slavery. If that's the case then yes... move where ever you want.


Hence "modern slavery"
Why not call it "modern incestual sodomy"?

TexUs
Aug 10th 2010, 02:54 PM
If you don't like it, don't go into debt.

That's really besides the point. You're arguing it's not akin to slavery at all, and that's completely wrong.

That's like arguing about traffic and then saying, "just don't drive a car"... Guess what? It still doesn't change the traffic.

HisLeast
Aug 10th 2010, 02:55 PM
That's really besides the point. You're arguing it's not akin to slavery at all, and that's completely wrong.
Except for the fact that it isn't like slavery AT ALL.
Obligation does not equal slavery.

TexUs
Aug 10th 2010, 03:06 PM
Except for the fact that it isn't like slavery AT ALL.
Obligation does not equal slavery.
You're out of touch with reality then.
I don't know if you were here for the housing collapse but if you bought a $200,000 house, it is now worth $110,000... There's $90,000 in debt suddenly that you can never eliminate.
What, exactly, do you want to call that? You can't opt out of that.

Yes, it was stupid to get it in the first place (not arguing that). Regardless, it is NOW modern slavery

HisLeast
Aug 10th 2010, 03:17 PM
You're out of touch with reality then.
I don't know if you were here for the housing collapse but if you bought a $200,000 house, it is now worth $110,000... There's $90,000 in debt suddenly that you can never eliminate.
What, exactly, do you want to call that? You can't opt out of that.
You don't purchase a mortgage based on a house's future value. If a house costs $200,000 then that's how much money I need. That $90,000 drop in value does not change the fact that I purchased a mortgage for $200k. I'm still living in the house aren't I? I don't have 48% less house do I? In fact, I own exactly the same thing I did the day before: a house that originally cost me $200k. While everyone complains about that, I'll use the reduction in my property tax to pay the mortgage off faster.

Besides which... this whole thing started with you saying that it was tax that makes us slaves. Now its mortgages. Which is it?


Yes, it was stupid to get it in the first place (not arguing that). Regardless, it is NOW modern slavery
Except for the fact that it is not like slavery at all. If you think tacking "modern" onto "slave" makes it any closer, then why not call it "modern incestual sodomy"?

TexUs
Aug 10th 2010, 03:45 PM
You don't purchase a mortgage based on a house's future value. If a house costs $200,000 then that's how much money I need. That $90,000 drop in value does not change the fact that I purchased a mortgage for $200k. I'm still living in the house aren't I?
Many had to downsize due to the dual effect of reductions in salaries and purchasing power.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Aug 10th 2010, 03:48 PM
Actually... All who are born in our country are dual-citizens of the United States AND the United States of America, and are "dead corporate entities" instead of "living humans" by legal status; thus they are literally owned as assets by the US Government, and are pledged as collateral for the national debt. We're literal slaves, regardless of debt or any "privileges" that have been substituted for rights.

Nevermind. Proceed. :-)

HisLeast
Aug 10th 2010, 03:55 PM
Many had to downsize due to the dual effect of reductions in salaries and purchasing power.

Does not change the fact that their mortgages were purchased for the original amount and not on potential future amounts. Does not alter the obligation, and does not make obligation look any closer to slavery.

cindylou
Aug 10th 2010, 03:59 PM
You don't purchase a mortgage based on a house's future value. If a house costs $200,000 then that's how much money I need. That $90,000 drop in value does not change the fact that I purchased a mortgage for $200k. I'm still living in the house aren't I? I don't have 48% less house do I? In fact, I own exactly the same thing I did the day before: a house that originally cost me $200k. While everyone complains about that, I'll use the reduction in my property tax to pay the mortgage off faster.

Besides which... this whole thing started with you saying that it was tax that makes us slaves. Now its mortgages. Which is it?


Except for the fact that it is not like slavery at all. If you think tacking "modern" onto "slave" makes it any closer, then why not call it "modern incestual sodomy"?


LOL I dont have less of a house, but I lost all my down payment and then some. I lost a lot of cash :cry: and I need to move and cant.